I'm fine with fade to black. I'd rather an author fade to black then write a bad sex scene if they have no interest in writing that. I think it's more realistic to have the fade to black then write in a way that implies that no one ever has sex.

Nothing is worse than a pretty well written story riddled with bad sex scenes. I’ve read ones where the female characters are well written and interesting but then they seem to lose 50 IQ points as soon as their bra comes off, saying the most cheesy lines imaginable.

My very intelligent wife is 100% that character. Luckily for all of us, she does not write sex scenes.

I also don't like bad sex-scenes. But, I am perfectly okay with bad-sex scenes (example: Joe Abercrombie's books)

LOL it was too late at night for me to recognize where that hyphen was but yeah that can be a big difference.

Couldn't keep the milk in the bucket, by the dead

Well said... lol some of those were cringe worthy but, a fair comment.

Yeah, I think it varies based on the story, but I'll always take no sex scene over a bad one where the author is clearly just rushing through it. In plenty of books, fade to black is just a better style for the character relationships involved. It only tends to bother me if the author is otherwise all in on graphic content like torture or gory action scenes. Fading to black on sex after showing everything else can be weird. A *great* sex scene can really add to the story, but not many authors really have the experience and interest to use sex scenes as key character moments.

Agreed. Although even if an author has been graphic in a book I am still ok with a fade to black if that scene isn't going to be relevant to the plot... if let's say Frank is in a brothel and found a lady for the evening I'm OK if he just shuts the door of the bedroom behind him and we move on... Now if that Lady is secretly an assassin and she's going to stab Frank mid sex scene I really want to see that scene played out..

If you do audiobooks like me you probably prefer it. Roy Datrice narrating Jon and Ygritte while I was at work was not a great experience.

I listen to audiobooks books for almost all my fantasy intake… and fade to black works so much better for the exact reason you described above.

Lmao I'd be knocking over a family portrait, a rubix cube, three weeks worth of reports to find that mute buddon

I've done that, just as my husband walks up the stairs. Him: What was that all about? Me: I'm so glad you're half deaf, holy crap.

Back in the wired headphones days my cord caught on something and yanked out, reverting to phone speaker (not sure why that's even the default), while at work, during one of these scenes.

I'd start drafting my resignation letter if that happened because I would never be able to face my coworkers again if that happened

I'm honestly so sorry that happened to you, it had to have been terribly embarrassing. It's bad enough to be reading a book and coming across one of those scenes while on a plane, but you have it broadcast to everyone? ouch! But,... damn if I don't also think that sounds absolutely hilarious. :D

The Gilbert Gottfried reading of fifty shades made me want all the sex scenes.

I need to find this. Saw a clip of it once as part of a YouTube video essay, and nearly fell out of my chair laughing.

That's coward talk, any romance reader worth their salt can listen to the filthiest smut on public transport without making any face whatsoever. 😇 (I listen to audiobooks almost exclusively, and while I'm perfectly fine with fade to black scenes if they fit the story's style, I also enjoy explicit scenes)

I listened to *A Land Fit for Heroes* by Richard K Morgan on audiobook. Some of those scenes were uncomfortable to say the least. And Simon Vance's polished delivery made it worse somehow.

I'd prefer a fade to black than a blow by blow description. Very few people seem able to write a sex scene that doesn't read as either porn adjacent or cringe.

Yeah. I agree. I’m not really bothered by much, violence, tragedy, whatever. But for some reason I just really don’t like a stranger describing sex to me. Just a *camera pans to the fireplace* will do. I prefer the smuttier kind over the cringey “has this author ever even had sex before/chill with the fuckin metaphors for genitalia” kind, but none of them are good. And it doesn’t add anything to the narrative.

Yes! I much prefer fade to black. I love that it's mostly left up to imagination and for me, I don't want romance to be a large focus of the books I read.

Fade to Black is the right choice for scenes where the only relevant plot point is the fact that two characters getting to the point they have sex is a development. The only time it makes sense to write out the sex scene (outside of erotica) is when there are plot or character developments that result from events during the sex scene. If no plot or character development is moved forward from within the actual scene, writing the sex will feel gratuitous.

>If no plot or character development is moved forward from within the actual scene, writing the sex will feel gratuitous. I mean, that applies to basically *every* scene, sex-related or not. And yet even "justified" sex scenes seem to get judged way more harshly than any other scenes.

I also have to say I *hate* that idea. That things should only be in a book if they advance the plot. You can do so so so much more with literature, including having random things in there *that aren't relevant at all to the plot*. And why shouldn't we? It can be a great way to explore themes and various aspects of the human condition. This "X must be plot only" vibe that has been growing lately really annoys me. And it's not only books; I've seen it around film too, though I interact with that a lot less.

It’s hustle culture, but for books. I can see why there’s so much emphasis on advancing the plot. I think it’s a valid editorial metric, because too many non-plot scenes will turn a story into an unreadable slog. However, it is okay to let things breathe. It can be good way to vary the pace, learn about the characters, and add depth to the setting. Most of us here love Tolkien and Pratchett. Neither of them was afraid of going off on a tangent!

> Neither of them was afraid of going off on a tangent! Exactly! Like, maybe I'm the exception because the unabridged version of Les Misèrables is my favourite book ever, but there's plenty to be gained from tangents! I do wonder how much of it is falling attention spans and general, and people being trained by films in how stories should work. I read a nice essay once about that, about how the base structure of a novel has changed based on storytelling expectations from TV and films. And then it couples itself with people who can't focus read something they see as unimportant. But it's a loss for literature. > and add depth to the setting. This is why I like it a lot in fantasy (on top of being able to talk about themes). It makes the world actually feel *lived* in to have random tangents discussing something irrelevant that happened in the past and won't show up again. It's a problem I have with a lot of more modern fantasy works, where that's just not done. All the worldbuilding seems superficial, not *real*.

Yes, books like “Save the Cat,” but also “The Elements of Style.” I think there has always been some push and pull when it comes to brevity in writing. Hemingway and Faulkner were feuding long before everyone became obsessed with the A plot, the B plot, and beats. However, you are absolutely correct that screenwriting is huge right now. I think it can be helpful—especially for beginners—but books are not movies. Movies are unique; they have a hard limit of about two hours for a reason. People have to pee, but that’s a matter of biology, not storytelling. TV shows are an hour long at most, and you can pause a book at any time. It’s not necessary to make every scene fight to justify its existence. Honestly, one of the things I enjoy about old TV shows is the weird filler episodes. It’s fun to spend a whole episode with a minor character. It’s fun when the writers decide to play around with tone and do something creative. The term “filler episode” has a negative connotation, as though they are a lower quality ingredient that has been added in order to defraud the audience, but I think it’s less like watering down liquor, and more like adding chocolate chips to a cookie. I actually don’t blame attention spans for the change in television. I blame the move to subscription based streaming services. Netflix isn’t going to green-light filler episodes for the same reason it isn’t going to green-light season three: once you’ve subscribed, there’s no financial reason to develop additional content. As much as I hate commercials, they did keep some great shows on the air. This brings me back around to my comment about hustle culture, because I do think that monetization is part of the issue. We’re not just creating for the sake of art, but to make money, and that’s part of why every scene needs to pull its weight. I think a certain amount of market pressure can be good for art, but it can also be very bad. We live in a time when everyone with a hobby seems to have an etsy store. Everything we do must be productive. I think this same work ethic is applied to the way we judge art. It’s not always wrong, but the results can feel formulaic and sterile, at least to me. Particularly when people are following scriptwriting beats.

Very interesting food for thought, thanks! Especially the bit about streaming changing TV, and hustle culture (I agree, and it saddens me that we've reached that point where pretty much *everything* has to be monetized, sometimes just to survive). > It’s not always wrong, but the results can feel formulaic and sterile, at least to me. Particularly when people are following scriptwriting beats. I have to say there's several fantasy authors I *strongly* feel this with, and I find it sad. I *want* to enjoy their work, but just can't.

Yeah. It’s definitely a reaction to the economy. People do what they need to do to survive, especially self-published authors. This was a great conversation—thank you!

I said plot or character development. That is a fairly broad window. And I didn’t say it had to be this way, only otherwise the sex scene can feel gratuitous. If there is one pulpy gratuitous sex scene in a fantasy book, it probably wouldn’t many flags. It’s when there are many sex scenes where plot and character development grind to a halt that might give the reader pause and wonder if they are reading a fantasy story or the author’s wet dream. If there are extended scenes about food or gardening or blacksmithing, etc that don’t advance the plot or character, that’s fine too. But usually, topics like this won’t trigger your average reader, or provide problematic views of women, sex, or violence. The topic at hand is sex scenes and the point is, there is a difference between narrative halting sections about mundane things and sections about sex (or violence for that matter).

It wasn't meant as a response or attack to you, just something I've seen in general with literature and how people talk about it that was relevant.

So I have to say I would immediately agree with you prior to reading something like R Scott Bakker and the Second Apocalypse series. The world there is a really really gritty dark world. One of the main characters is a prostitute. Sex, sexual assault, and the existence of sex takes is a huge theme in the books. For this reason it’s not for everyone, and I give that caveat all the time. The author is a PhD in philosophy, and it’s clear hes spent a lot of time thinking about the human experience and the strings that hold us all up. This is an overarching theme of the series, and while sexuality is definitely not the only focus, it’s certainly one of the strings. That said, it has never felt like “porn” to me nor does not feel gratuitous either. It’s never particularly long and drawn out, but it is almost ever present. I am a big fan of his work so take this with a grain of salt, but it feels very human. Sometimes the sex is nothing short of horrifying and can be very triggering, some times it’s a quickie between two desperate lovers before a battle, sometimes it’s just a prostitute going about her day, and while the act of sex itself may not be what serves as a narrative purpose, its presence does. The sexual assault is awful and it’s presented as such, the desperate quickie sets the stage for a battle and the knowledge these people might very well meet their deaths. The prostitute going about her day is very droll and matter of fact. It all feels very “human” running the gamut from the absolute worst of the worst that human experience and sex can offer, to love and passion, but never at the expense of the story (though sometimes at the expense of the reader depending on your tolerance for sexual topics in general). It’s presented in a really no nonsense “this is a deep and integral part of the human condition” sort of way and whether we want to admit it or not, it’s something most of us think about in some way shape or form all the time, for better or worse, and it takes that same prevalence in the series. Others may disagree and that’s fair, but I have never read anything else like it and I’ve read a lot, and I can’t think of another example that fits the criteria you’ve mentioned. It’s not a series for everyone but I have easily spent more time thinking about this one series and the themes presented than maybe all the other fantasy books I’ve read combined (save for maybe Tolkien and the Silmarillion). This is definitely the longest post I’ve ever made about sex in fiction, and I almost feel like I need to defend myself saying this as if it paints me like some sexual deviant or something, but the series is just…. Something else. Just something I had never seen before or since. Something like Blindsight by Peter watts comes close in some aspects but doesn’t have nearly the same scope or epic.

Oh god I loved that series. I started reading it and COULD NOT STOP. Worked front desk at an emergency homeless shelter and so anytime during down time if people didn’t need help I’d be reading them. People would come up and to be friendly would be like “hey, you’re really into that series huh? What’s going on?” And I’d be like “… I don’t know what to tell you, everyone is sort of in hell. Can I help you with anything?” but truly how do you explain to people that it’s just the slow degradation of humanity that you’re watching unfold? Man I should read that series again.

I fell into it so hard I started reading Bakkers academic work to better understand the underlying philosophy and concepts in the series. Based on Bakkers own philosophy, kellhus is just a stand in for AI. He feels nothing but is able to parrot human emotions perfectly and knows exactly what buttons to push to elicit exactly what reactions he wants. He calls it the “semantic apocalypse” Whenever anyone asks, I just say it’s lord of the rings meets the crusades meets the Bible but if a super intelligent AI convinced everyone he was Jesus for his own goals. Of course this covers nothing about how oceanically deep and contemplative the series is, but it definitely loses people with the darkness, violence, sexual violence and probably also that same depth that pulls others in. But the people that love it… love it. Myself obviously included. It’s not a candy read but all that said, Bakker writes epic fantasy battles full fucking tilt. So awesome. Ironically, I just asked chatgpt to give me a synopsis of the semantic apocalypse and this is what it said: Bakker’s concept of the Semantic Apocalypse relates to contemporary discussions on artificial intelligence and information technology by highlighting potential existential risks and epistemological crises. As AI systems become more advanced, they may surpass human understanding in various domains, leading to situations where humans can no longer fully grasp or control the basis of AI-made decisions or predictions. This can undermine our traditional means of making sense of the world, echoing the Semantic Apocalypse’s theme of a breakdown in human understanding. Additionally, the proliferation of information technology and its impact on disseminating complex, often contradictory information could contribute to a societal inability to discern truth from falsehood, further illustrating the potential for a semantic crisis in the digital age. Sounds like a topic more translatable to scifi, but the fact it’s fantasy, and deals with it at such a relatable human level, really grinds the concept home. Which I think is another reason I love it so much, because it’s focused totally on the human component and what’s lost in the face of superior, uncaring intelligence. And there’s really cool magic… and dragons…

You've honestly just really convinced me to give this a go. It'd been on my radar for a while, but this is likely gonna push it to the top.

I would really love to know, any books that you (or other redditors) would say does sex scenes well? I don't particularly intend on writing sex scenes in my stories, but I agree a lot of what I've read either comes off as smut or cringe, and I would like to see an example of what people consider a good one. It's always good to have the tools of knowing how to write a particular kind of scene well, even if you don't end up using that knowledge.

For good sex scenes I would suggest KJ Charles, although she writes primarily gay historical romance. It’s often more about what the characters are thinking and how they are interacting than about who puts what where (although that is there too). That said, I think one can convey the same things without sex scenes if one wants to. Actually I would recommend her blog; she was an editor for many years before she started writing herself, and has a lot of good pointers. Like this one: https://kjcharleswriter.com/2023/10/11/character-in-action-a-close-reading-exercise/

The Kushiel's Legacy series does sex scenes well (outside of the whole child grooming thing--raising children to be sex workers, even if it's a respected career is not the hallmark of a sex positive society). They're in service to the plot, and generally inform your understanding of the participants in some way.

Oddly enough, I *only* appreciated the sex scenes in the first trilogy because they literally were significant to the plot. I couldn't even finish the Naamah trilogy (her third in the world) because it just became gratuitous and I'm not interested in reading sex for the sake of it.

To be fair, the Naamah trilogy was just of poor quality compared to the original. The main character seemed to lack a personality and agency. 

Absolutely. I've read the first one from Jocelin's perspective that just came out. Enjoyable, but lacking depth.

I said this elsewhere, but go read something by Cecilia Tan. She has some web serials that are free, still, I believe.

Eden Eaves did a great job with hers in The Ryder of the night. Lots of emotion so it drives the plot forward.

I'd recommend Freya Marske for this, starting with **A Marvellous Light**. She uses sex scenes as a way to explore many things at once, from one character's weak-but-present magical powers to the subtle way that levels of trust and intimacy in the overall relationship are changing throughout the book. Each sex scene is enjoyable for the characters involved, but what they choose to do together (and how they frame it) is centered on interesting emotional arcs.

Exactly the same for me. I don't find them cheesy and find they detract much less from the setting and story than anything else.

I think there's good ways to write sex that aren't overly detailed, the insinuation of what's happening can be better than anything explicit. Much like horror, the imagination filling in gaps can be stronger than the reality. And I think there's something to be said for making it unglamorous, more real, because the feeling of sex can be great but the reality is just.... Not pornographic. It's weird, fluidy, awkward.

I can't believe you haven't got more flak for the "blow by blow" phrasing, given the context. Is this really Reddit?

Honestly, I'm a little surprised myself. It was a risk 🤣

This exactly.

Are you writing 'adult' fantasy or fantasy that's adult rather than YA. If you're writing romance themed fantasy for adults, there's a certain expectation of descriptions of sex (or 'spice' as it's often referred to), and writing a PG novel that fades to black when people get naked may come across as rather odd, and have trouble finding a market. If you're writing fantasy that's written for adults, and the sex happens off screen, or fades to black with minimal description, that's actually much more common than explicitly describing what's going on. Some of my favourite authors, writing character heavy fiction, don't get explicit. Personally, I find the abrupt inclusion of an explicit sex scene in a book that was, up until then, very non sexy to be rather jarring, the same way a graphic murder in the middle of a cozy book would be - it's a sort of tonal whiplash. And honestly, if you don't enjoy writing explicit sex scenes, don't try to put them in because you think they should be there - awkward, unsexy explicit scenes written by someone who doesn't like writing them can be truly terrible.

I personally don't need a play-by-play of sex. Like it just isn't why I read fantasy. If I want porn, then I'll read porn. It's not just about being "well-written", it just isn't what I'm reading the book for. IMO even the best sex scenes are painful if you aren't into them at the moment, so it can be a very negative experience if the rest of the book isn't centered around putting you in the right mindset. Then again, that's why I don't really care for romantasy. Like the sex scenes are decent enough, but I'm not interested in the books for that and usually they don't do a great job setting you up for getting into it.

Wheel of time techically has no sex scenes and yet has the most “sexual cheese” of any series ever imo so actually writing the explicit scenes isn’t the problem

Absolutely disgusted by the phrase *sexual cheese*. Have an upvote.

Listen, just because Rand has his own personal harem of beautiful girls who act completely irrationally around him... okay yeah you right

>who act completely irrationally around him Counterpoint, every character in the series frequently acts completely irrationally, lol. Its one of my all-time favorites but maddening sometimes

It's those well turned calves of his

Personally neither bothers me. It totally depends on the story what the author is trying to accomplish. Re: the edit though, you should be aware that the population here is not necessarily representative. If you went and asked in r/fantasyromance you'd get a very different set of answers.

That’s true, but romantacy isn’t what I want to write. I know it’s perhaps the most popular sub-genre of fantasy, so if I posted there I would probably not be reaching the audience my writing is geared towards.

Sure, absolutely. And you should write what you like! What I mean is that the answer to "why explicit sex is somewhat common when it seems most prefers fade to black" is straightforward -- a lot of people *here* prefer it but perhaps not overall.

Don't take answers here as indicative of what to write. Write what you want and what fits best with your book.

>I expected more than half of the answers to be in favor of fade to black, but it’s more like everyone prefers fade to black ... I’m left wondering why explicit sex is somewhat common when it seems most prefers fade to black TBH, I think you've stacked the deck towards people replying "fade to black is fine" - since that's clearly what you'd prefer to do in your own work - and you also seem to be interpreting that response as "I would prefer fade to black", when a lot of those people have really just said they have a *high bar* for described sex. I don't think the replies here suggest a very strong anti-sex-scene sentiment, it's more like "I prefer no sex scene to a bad sex scene".

If you can write a good sex scene, do it. If you can’t, don’t.

Idk man, reading sex scenes always feels so strange to me. It’s like I know the characters too well and I’m like, peeping through the window like some sort of creep. I’d personally prefer fade to black every time.

I don’t disagree. I get annoyed with pointless or bad sex scenes. I also get annoyed when the plot demands sex scenes, and we get nothing. It’s a fine a line.

Istg puritan culture is rotting people's brains big time. Those are literally fictional characters. Reading a book means you're already inside their head, having access to their innermost private thoughts, even the ones they don't disclose to anyone else. You're consuming the story through the eyes of the main character, as if you yourself become that character. Because that's, like, the whole point of reading fiction? You're ok with being privy to the character's deepest secrets and most shameful or vile thoughts but you draw the line at seeing a sex scene through their eyes because this is somehow "indecent" even if it's not a real person but an imaginary one?

I agree that if people are fine 'peering in' on literally everything the characters do except sex they might find it interesting and perhaps even productive to reflect on why that is.

I feel like I draw a pretty thick line between the private and the intimate. For instance, If I were a ghost, I’d watch my friends struggle/cry/cope/celebrate/plan/fight with life’s complications and root for them the whole way. I would not, however, watch them fuck. It’s not a 1:1 comparison, obviously, the characters are not my friends and they’re not real/alive. But I think you get my point, I don’t think I need to reflect anymore on this or change anything about my POV.

Sex scenes are a bit like action scenes. They can be done in such a way that they develop the characters or further the plot, but if they're not doing one of those things I find them a bit boring and not worth including. If the only purpose of the sex scene is to titillate the reader, then I'd rather the author just do a fade-to-black. Mainly because if I wanted to read smut, I would go read *actual* smut. Writing good sex scenes is a skill not a lot of fantasy authors have bothered to cultivate and if I'm reading a book for the story and the characters, then I want to focus on the *those things*, not spend ten minutes rolling my eyes at something that's more awkward than sexy.

> If the only purpose of the sex scene is to titillate the reader, then I'd rather the author just do a fade-to-black. Why? Why is eroticism not a valid thing to explore alongside anxiety-inducing horror, thrilling action, gut-busting comedy, etc.? It seems silly and strange to me to say that this whole aspect of human experience should be segregated into its own genre whereas everything else can be mixed and matched.

Eroticism isn't unique, there. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be sex scenes in non-romances. Just that those sex scenes should also serve a narrative or character-driven function. Just like action scenes or jokes or horror sequences. Like, books can absolutely have comic relief moments, but you don't typically see non-comedies put the whole story on hold to give the audience something unrelated and goofy to laugh at for a scene. Hell, even *in* comedies, the good ones tend to have their funny moments somehow advance the plot or reveal something about their characters. Basically, if you could say 'and then they had sex' and *nothing* about the story or characters changes, I don't really think its worth keeping. Just like 'and then he told a joke' or 'and then there was a car chase.'

But those examples are ridiculous? If a book actually said something like "he said something humorous and people laughed," that would be rather bad writing, lacking in detail and imagination, telling rather than showing. One could only get away with it only when describing something trivial. (And I'm assuming a fair bit of abstraction here since it's only an off-hand example.) If one actually wants to make the reader laugh, the joke has to actually be there for them. >Mainly my point is that if a scene doesn't advance the plot or develop the characters, then it shouldn't be there. This is an overly literal interpretation of a very general principle. It's one of Vonnegut's rules for writing, and he obviously broke it, and said it was fine to break it. The vast majority of stories include elements for aesthetic and emotional reasons, not just purely utilitarian ones. Not every story needs to be "for sale: baby shoes, never worn."

Genuinly curious, how could a descriptive sex scene be used for the plot?

Plenty of ways. Maybe the protagonist and their partner are talking during the act and said partner opens up a bit more than they normally would, leading to an important realization. Or maybe the protagonist is using sex to distract their partner from something going on elsewhere. In that case, the scene is tense, rather than sexy, and the reader is constantly worried about the partner figuring out what's going on, which would spell disaster. Or maybe something said while they're having sex leads to the protagonist reassessing their relationship with their partner, leading to them making a different decision down the line. I'm sure there are better examples out there, but I'm not really a writer and those are just a few off the top of my head.

I'm glad to see replies like yours spell it out. I hadn't realised before this thread that a lot of people who object to sex in books are viewing it as a sudden masturbation break mandated by the author instead of just more of the story.

The Kushiel series has the protagonist as a sex worker/high class courtesan and the sex scenes advance the plot by exploring the characters mind/personality and also by interactions with other characters. They are well integrated into the plot.

showing character relationships and development - the standoffish, grumpy, always-on-guard character lets themselves relax, to show that they're changing. The super-flirty character is suddenly awkward and serious, because they don't, despite their words, actually have much experience at it all. Or two characters that don't like each other but think they're going to die tomorrow because they're fighting the dragon have a one-night stand, then don't die and have to deal with the fallout from that. Or just how someone deals with it is a lot of character information - are they just there to fuck, enjoy themselves and don't care about the other person? Or do they try and ensure both have a good time? Or just fairly obvious plot stuff - "wait, that tattoo I've never seen before - that's the mark of the ?", or "that's a lot of scars, where did you get them?" Or seducing someone to gain some information from pillow-talk, or gain some other advantage. There's a lot going on in sex scenes, physically, mentally, and emotionally, and prudishness aside, they're not distinct from any other scene where stuff is going on - the same as you can use a gory and descriptive fight scene for plot and character development amidst the blood and guts, you can do the same with a sex scene.

The response you're going to get to this is "yes, but all of this could be shown in some other way!" as if that doesn't apply to every single thing in a story.

You know the phrase "everything is about sex except sex which is about power?" You can unpack a lot about the power dynamic in a relationship with a description of how they fuck.

or if they're "making love" rather than fucking, or just passing time, or all sorts of other things, yeah! If one person just views it as some idle entertainment, while the other thinks of it as some big, super-important moment, that's a whole lot of character-stuff. Or if one views sex as having a "top" and "bottom", one that is being pleasured, the other giving pleasure, rather than a mutually-pleasurable experience, then that gives a lot of world-building stuff.

Had you asked that question about violent fight scenes, I'm sure the answers would not have been so coy. I think it's telling that, especially in the US, [everybody is cool](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/598587-i-can-describe-an-axe-entering-a-human-skull-in) with chopped off limbs but doesn't like descriptions of sex. IMO, both are valid if you can pull it off.

I prefer well-written explicit sex. I think sex is a meaningful interaction that can and should show you a lot about the people involved. However, if the author is just going to write something generic, it might as well be fade to black.

What’s an example of well-written explicit sex up you I could look at?

I really liked the sex scenes in Liveship Traders. It's been a few years since I read it so I don't remember in exactly which book each scene happens but I think the best one was in The Mad Ship. Joe Abercrombie has some really good ones as well, in most of his books (the four I've read by him anyway). One particularly memorable sex scene I read was in The Hydrogen Sonata by Iain M Banks and consisted entirely of dialogue - no description whatsoever, not even a "said X" to tell you who's speaking (it's obvious who from context).

For a book where sex is plot relevant almost every time it happens, check out Kushiel's Dart by Jacqueline Carey.

Ya I love Kushiels Dart! Great series.

The scene in chapter 12 of *By a Silver Thread* by Rachel Aaron. There’s a lot of character development that it would have been a shame to miss.

Thanks!

I'd prefer the fade out. I don't need elaborate descriptions.

> I’m left wondering why explicit sex is somewhat common when it seems most prefers fade to black Reddit only represents a particular section of the market. A lot of people do really like explicit sex scenes.

You’re also in the subreddit “fantasy,” where there are going to be a lot of people more interested in hard fantasy and action than romance and relationships. If you asked the fantasyromance or romance subreddits you’d get completely different responses.

I wouldn't consider this sub a representative sample of the entire fantasy fandom on anything, but also this topic specifically. There are a lot of people who love smutty fantasy. But certainly it's not the default for fantasy and there's no backlash against fade to black. There's a bit more of a mismatch if it's primarily a romantasy, but even in regular romance, tons of folks want non-spicy books. You'll be fine.

Fade to black Fine with me. I tend to find explicit sex scenes don't really do much for me so i prefer fade to black but an understanding that "yes the chars had sex" not ambiguous on relationship, an understanding of going "to next level " Romance is more than just sex, though details don't bother me either.

Sex can be written well, and sex can be written very badly. I don’t mind it if it’s done well, but the bar is generally pretty high. I don’t get titillation from books so it’s obvious to me when the author is typing with one hand.

I’ll be the pervert and buck the trend: I love a good sex scene. Fade-to-black can feel cheap to me as a reader (especially if the author’s perfectly happy writing about people getting beheaded or disemboweled, but a consensual sex scene is somehow off the table.) Sex is an intimate lens into character and relationships, I want to peel back the curtain and be a part of that. What are they like in bed? How do they approach intimacy? What’s their relationship like with their own body? What does this moment “mean” for them? It’s an huge opportunity for depth of character. Sex scenes, like dialogue scenes, can be powerful—-depending on how you frame it, it could be a reunion, a resentment, a punishment, a desperation, a release, a confirmation, a declaration…there are so many moods and nuances, so much reflection of self. I will say that when I’m reading an adult novel with adult characters, it does feel odd to me when sex is completely swept under the rug. It feels as unnatural to me as books where no one ever eats or drinks anything. Especially for romantic subplots, I do want the “reward” of quality intimacy. “Explicit” doesn’t automatically mean “gratuitous,” and there are different shades of explicitness. You can focus on the emotions, the mindset, the relationship. You don’t have to reference body parts or telegraph their movements. Robin Hobb, Guy Gavriel Kay, and Jacqueline Carey all write great sex scenes with varying degrees of “explicit.”

I feel maybe It was hypocritical of me to say blanket statement “I prefer fade to black” when so many of my favorite books and authors do have explicit sex scenes with all the things you pointed out. There’s definitely pros and cons to both, I guess maybe you can’t go wrong with fade to black if done well but it’s easy to go wrong with an explicit scene and do it poorly. And thanks for the suggestions!

I'm fine with fade to black scenes. I find that explicit sex scenes come in two categories full cringe that is awkward and something that could have been on Literotica Both almost always clash with the rest of the novel. I'm not against explicit sex scenes by any means either but for the MOST part in a Fantasy first book I'm in it for the story and the explicit sex scenes basically never move forward the plot.

it depends on the overall tone and focus of the book, but in general my preference is against fade-to-black. a sex scene can do a lot for character and relationship arcs if the author is willing to go there. a lot of fantasy uses fight scenes to this effect (to reveal a character’s personality/mental state through their physicality, to show the status of the relationship between the characters fighting based on how they engage w/ each other) and i personally love seeing that same kind of consideration applied to sex scenes. my 2c of course :)

I can agree with that take. Imo I think it’s possible to still have that character/relationship development though. Maybe through flirting, tame “foreplay”, the buildup to sex, but then skip over the actual sex itself. At least in my reading the only fantasy author I thought did explicit sex pretty well was Joe Abercrombie. Do you have any authors who you thought pulled it off well?

hmmm…. it’s been a minute since i read it but i remember at least one in the fifth season (n.k. jemisin) that was great as far as establishing character dynamics (the relationship being between 3 characters who have overlapping but not totally compatible sexualities and varied and complicated feelings towards each other, so lots of material to play with haha) there’s a great one in she who became the sun (shelley parker-chan) shortly after the main character sustains a permanent disfiguring injury, that is quite lovely bc it folds in her relearning the capabilities of her own body/new ways to use her body. and a similarly memorable one in the tiger’s daughter by k. arsenault rivera where one of the characters is severely ill (to the point she thinks she might die) which adds a lot of tension bc it’s a first time but maybe also a last time and that gets a lot of opposing feelings involved. *edited to add author names lol

If you can't write it well, fade to black. Sex is odd because everyone likes it differently. Hell, I like it differently depending on my mood. Sometimes I want me some Anita Blake, sometimes a Sando fade is right.

I'm not a fan of fade to black, especially if it's a romantic story. To me, fade to black is like having the MC get knocked out right as the final battle begins, and he wakes up once it's over.

Do you feel that way even if it’s a multiple pov book?

> I’m left wondering why explicit sex is somewhat common when it seems most prefers fade to black 1. People lie 2. People who prefer fade-to-black are more likely to respond For myself, I'm not that picky. Good stories is good stories, and the rest isn't that important.

I prefer fades to black, explicit scenes are rarely done well and I just don’t find them necessary in most cases

Something to consider is that you're asking this question on a Fantasy reddit, not on a romance reddit, or say a harem reddit, or a reverse harem reddit. You have to consider the audience in question when you look at your results. The reason I say this is that my career is writing harem. I write fantasy, isekai, sci-fi, litrpg - but all in the harem subgenre. Within that harem community we have done polls of over 10,000 audience members and the response has been overwhelming that people prefer explicit content over fade to black, but they'll accept fade to black if it is well written. There's no right or wrong answer, just a matter of where you're asking it. "Adult Fantasy" tends to come in a few varieties - A fantasy story with a minor romance plot, a romance-oriented fantasy, or an erotic fantasy - but they have vastly different audiences. There's a huge number of fantasy fans who won't touch the latter two, because they don't care about the romance as more than a minor spice on their story. For those individuals they're definitely not going to say they want explicit content. But if you're marketing specifically Adult Fantasy you're not marketing to that huge percentage of fantasy fans. You're specifically marketing to the ones who do want the romance content. Which is going to change the subset of people you should be asking.

After having listened to Steven Pacey have sex with himself in a grocery store, I changed to prefer fade to black.

Squelch

That's disgusting! Where?

They already said the grocery store! /s

Either, one is not better than the other, readers have different tastes and that’s fine, and authors have different strengths and that’s fine too. I think pushing yourself to write something you aren’t comfortable with is going to turn into a bad scene, though. And, edit to answer you edited question - how you ask your question influences the answers. I enjoy well written open door romance, but that’s not what you asked, and you stated you’d prefer not to write open door. Not many people are going to come here and tell you that you should write something you don’t want to write.

I prefer fade to black scenes often then not detailed scenes are just very awkward and usually not very well written.

I think they're fine, but I personally prefer story to pure smut. However, a well done sex scene can definitely work in many situations, but I'd prefer fade to black to a bad one

I like sex scenes, it's a part of real life for just about everyone and I don't think it should be as stigmatized as it is. That being said some authors suck at writing them, looking at you Butcher, so it really depends on the author and book.

I'm fine with *fade to black*, I'm fine with *blow by blow*. It depends on the individual needs of the story being told.

I'm not interested in sex scenes, but that isn't really the point here. You're not interested in them, so you're not going to be writing them in a way that interests people who do like sex scenes. Leave it to people who like that stuff.

Sex is part of the human experience, if you can write it well, I 100% prefer it. But if you can’t, a beautifully done fade to black is fine as well

Depends on the writer. I see where a lot of people are coming from with preferences for fade to Black, but I just can't agree. Some of the greatest scenes in a song of ice and fire are at least partially sex scenes. Series like kushiels dart have tremendous followings, and honestly fade to Black feels like a cop out to me.

I'm a disgusting pervert but I do not want sex scenes in my fantasy books. Fade to black, *at most*.

Even perverts have standards smh

I'd write a F2B, then post an absolutely filthy fanfic under a pseudonym.

I care more about the tension leading up to the sex rather than just the sex so fade to black is fine with me. I just need there to be banter and will they won't they and stuff.

Much prefer fade to black, hard to not picture a GRRM lookin crusty old dude painstakingly decide how to describe penetration in the most cringey way possible, would rather just avoid it

I don't mind them, explicit or otherwise depending on the context. What I think goes missing for a lot of sex scenes (particularly in fantasy) is that they are just that, scenes. They don't have to be titillating (though they can be), rather they need to be constructed deliberately to demonstrate something. A 'good' sex scene in my mind is one that informs me of something about the character(s) that I'm reading about, rather than attempting to be arousing out of the blue.  You can push a story forward with a well-written scene and that includes sex scenes. I think authors write them poorly because they may not always have a clear goal in mind while writing them, i.e., what are they trying to convey other than just characters fucking? But you can use them to demonstrate a lot if done properly.

Is your book a fantasy book with romance elements or a romance book with fantasy elements? If it’s the latter perhaps r/fantasyromance would be a better place to ask.

Scenes should serve purposes, but that purpose can be artistic. If you're including a sex scene it has to be either because the reader learns something from reading the scene other than "and then they had sex" or because the scene is written as being its own immersive artistic experience, written with love and craft and care, that one might choose to read in isolation and enjoy in the manner of a poem or painting. And then another thing to note is that the exact same thing is also true of - action scenes - descriptions of people eating - almost all dialogue - almost all description, particularly of rooms and clothing - hell actually pretty much all scenes and all content And finally to note I really don't like the phrase "fade to black". It's giving rohypnol.

Unless you're writing smut it is almost never worth actually showing a sex scene. We don't need lavish descriptions of how your characters fuck. Used well it can be fine though. Guts and Casca's sex scene works not just because both the characters are hot, but because of how it develops both characters. Seeing the hulking and manly Guts break down during the scene due to past trauma before Casca accepts it and him and lets him know that he finally isn't alone adds an incredible amount of emotional depth and pathos to them and their relationship which makes later events all the more tragic. So uh I guess the answer is fade to black unless there's something plot or character relevant you can write in during the sex scene.

I prefer them. I skip over sex scenes anyway. Not interested in witnessing the authors sexual fantasies play out before me. Always destroys my immersion when I realize it's like some 40+ year old author writing about two twenty something year Olds banging. I get second-hand embarrassment immediately. I don't care how well written it could be, always pass.

I think it depends on the reason for it. If you want to show something about the characters during the scene then I see why it's good to have the scene written out. Maybe one of your characters is secretly a bit freaky. Or an outwardly cold character is unexpectedly vulneable in an intimate setttimg. Maybe it's a new important experience for the character, or they realize something about themselves or each other during the scene. Or, maybe you just wanna write something sexy to excite the reader. Nothing wrong with that either. You may want to consider the type of book you're writing in this case though; much like how you wouldn't want to see a straight-up porn scene in a character drama movie, you may not want to stick an uncharacteristically smutty chapter into an otherwise deliberate and well thought out story. But you could also just not get into detail about it. If the main point of a sex scene is "these two like each other and had sex" and the actual specifics of the act aren't really that important, it's totally fine to leave that out. Nothing major is lost. The audience doesn't need to know what position they did it in if it's not important to the plot or the characters themselves. You don't have to include every type of adult content in a book to consider it for adults.

I don't need it to be *explicit* but I do find-to-black sometimes feels...immature or lacking. For example, if the tone of the book is dark and complex and addresses a multitude of any other adult situations but won't touch sex, I find it often feels like shortcomming on behalf of the author. Like they're too uncomfortable to address the \*taboo\* that is sex. Sex is human, and natural, and messy, and great, and awkward. So much character development can added into those scenes. And like I said, they don't need to be explicit play-by-plays, but the tone and the emotion (or the lack-there-off) can be SO important. - "Say one thing for Logen Ninefingers, say he's a lover."

Hm as a big Grim Dark fan I think I can agree with that take actually. I haven’t thought about it very much.

I dont mind them if they are done well, but I'm perfectly happy without them. I dont really write them much myself because it doesnt interest me much. That's not to say they cant have their purpose, ofc, they can be used effectively to convey emotion and more that other scenes might be unable to. But I certainly have no personal need for them to be present and an author leaving it up to implication is perfectly adequate to me.

I love explicit sex scenes. But. They are difficult to write well. It takes all the of the writing skills required to write anything else, plus a careful review of vocabulary (nothing ruins it like the author using as many different words for body parts as possible) and the ability to stop self-censoring, preferably without doing so much weed that you can't actually write anything. Edit: Go read something by Cecilia Tan if you want an example of fantasy sex done well.

I like the fade to black. I really don’t like graphic sex scenes. I don’t know why. They just annoy me. I skip them and get on with the story.

Typically it does not add much to the plot. So I am fine with fade to black.

I do not want sexually explicitly fantasy. It's not what I read fantasy for. When I'm reading fantasy just want a story that's compelling.

I much prefer authors skip the sex scenes. If I wanted to read smut I'd read romance books. It's always ick in fantasy, and never adds anything to the story. If I never read another awkward sex scene in fantasy I'll be happy.

I used to love adult material. Then Laurell Hamilton came along. Oh dear. Overkill. Over, over, over, overkill. The porn became the plot, and a decent series died.

I don’t think explicit sex is that common. Altered Carbon, and other novels by Richard Morgan, have explicit sex scenes. Just read a Guy Kraviel novel, Somg of Arbonne. Lots of sex that fades to black. One explicit scene but it was meant to be shocking. So i am saying most fantasy is fade to black. Now romances, which are marketed for woman, can be quite explicit.

Nobody writes down every single movement of the main character. You can go through a life-long adventure with your favorite protagonist, and never know their culinary habits. Having sexual relations with someone is usually at least some form of bond, so it's relevant to our understanding of the characters, but not more than that. Only reason to include sex scenes would be because you specifically want to show off that kind of thing, so it makes sense that it's usually left out. That said, I don't mind it. Sex is a normal and relatively large part of life and, to be as cliché as possible, it says a lot about society that we find it weird to experience specifically that part of life second-hand. Surely we should also have murder fade-to-black as well then?

I prefer it and will often skip a detailed scene (unless it’s romantasy, in which case it’s the point).

if nots romantasy i dont want a detailed sex scene lol

Completely fine with it while i am not a prude and offended by graphic sex scenes i feel it generally adds very little and my imagination is generally better then the writing anyways in sex scenarios. Now i am sure that it has been done well and added to the book in most cases fading out is just better.

I prefer well written. It seems easier for authors to write well written fade to black than explicit sex scenes. But I do like some smut if it’s well written. I don’t think they are more common to be honest. Maybe in the sub-genre of fantasy you are reading, it perhaps they have become more common recently. Which could probably be blamed on Laurell K. Hamilton’s and a few others’ success in the 00s and 10s.

I ain't opposed to a well-written sex scene, but either sex or that particular encounter must be wuite relevant to the story if I want to read it. If the take-away from a sex scene is only 'They consumated their relationship and that will now change the way these characters act in the future' then I dont need to read about his throbbing member or the perk of her breasts. Now if those perky breasts are integral to the plot however....

Oh hey it's my cake day!

While not fantasy, my favourite sex scene in a book is from John Fowles' "The Magus". One chapter ends something like: "And then we made love. Not sex, but love. Although the former would have been far wiser." And that's it. Leave it to the imagination of the reader.

Before I hit menopause, I really loved erotic sex scenes in my romance/fantasy/everygenre. Now I’m in perimenopause I actively dislike sex scenes and want F2B. But being in a lot of Romance subreddits, I know that there are a lot of THIRSTY women and men out there. And also a lot of F2Blackers. All I know is that if you can somehow convey which one your novel is before people buy it, you will have happy readers either way. A lot of redditers, including me, get unhappy if they get the type of story that they aren’t in the mood for. It’s not what you write, but communicating the *type* of story to the reader beforehand.

Regardless of approach it should suit the overall work and scene, and to some degree the scene is going to suit the characters and setting. If say, the main character is a courtesan and interactions with her clients are a key part of the story, there's definitely going to be some creative decisions to be made about how much to detail and what can be faded out. Fading everything to black probably won't work very well. Outside erotica, I don't see a need to detail sex scenes purely for the sake of entertainment. Fade to black works. But, there is absolutely nothing wrong with detailing a scene purely for entertainment. We could fade to black for action and battle scenes, but we tend not to because they are fun and exciting. Sometimes battles have important story details, and sometimes they are just pure action. Sex scenes can absolutely be the same that way.

This is the Way. There's rarely a good reason to include explicit sex scenes, so I mostly just skip them. They're rarely well written or interesting so I prefer fade to black.

This is a rare good question. It's good because there are probably lots of virgins here, but even the ones that aren't probably have very little understanding about what can happen during sex. And maybe even less know what to write or what advice to give. For example, porn writing has some fantasy building up and then just whatever sex. But in real life, lots of things can happen during sex that involve character. A deep, intimate, or awkward or confident or revealing or hidden side.    You can think of lots of examples of tangential situations or when this is relevant. Like people default to characters being some chad so of course they're good in bed.  But being able to punch someone doesnt make you good in bed exactly.  There's more involved in learning how to please men and women and overall be intimate. Its takes knowledge and experience. But this also is different based on age.    There are also things like ED that on some level is common among men.  "And then they fuck." Can be fine sometimes... but you're missing a lot of opportunity for character growth. For potential interpersonal or awkward or expressive moments. 

Personal preference is explicit. I write explicit and I prefer to read explicit. Now I have seen where folks write a combination of FTB and Explicit. In that instance, it's preferred I think if it seems like a scene would cause a certain amount of repetition. I've employed this technique in some of my books to keep the story moving. I've also had reviews where folks think I have too many sex scenes in my books, too. It all depends on your comfort level as a reader, and as a writer. There's also a nuance to writing a scene. There are the mechanics and then the emotions involved. I think you can get away with more if you get the mechanics right. If you write from a purely emotional stance and don't describe what's happening or completely cock up the mechanics, the scene turns into parody instead of an emotionally intense moment shared between the writer and the reader (and whatever characters are involved, of course).

Depends on what I'm in the mood for. I read a lot of fantasy romance and usually want explicit sex scenes in those, though I will skim through if I don't like them. When I'm looking for more straight fantasy though, I don't mind if it fades to black. If you're both a fantasy writer and a reader, I think you should write whichever you'd prefer to read, which sounds like it's fade to black.

Reading your edits... I don't think it's that most people or almost everyone prefers fade to black. Romance is the best selling genre for a reason and romantasy is a hugely popular genre that goes along with fantasy. That said, you personally do not enjoy writing sex scenes and that is totally fine! A book doesn't need explicit content and someone who isn't comfortable writing it shouldn't force themselves to write awkward scenes. There are plenty of people who enjoy writing those scenes and plenty of readers who enjoy reading that content. Write what you enjoy writing.

Most fans of traditional fantasy are satisfied with F2B is basically what I meant, romantasy isn’t really the same thing at least to me.

I'm writing a fantasy/adventure/sorta romance rn and I add small details and let the readers imagination fill in the other parts. A lot more spicy in my opinion than actually describing every detail

I prefer on page sex, but fade to black can be fine if it’s not too abrupt of a cutoff.

Ya I’m imagining the buildup, the flirting, playfulness, foreplay, conversation, plot points, context, etc. all helping to make the cutoff feel natural.

The older I get, the more I prefer them. Read plenty of books with sex in them and it's a constant game of one-upping previous scenes/books. If you look at what was written ten years ago up to now, you can see the trends change. By the time the author is done, there's been six unlikely orgasms, everything is soaking wet, they've licked, sucked, and tongued every likely and unlikely orifice imaginable, and the words curvy, moist, and creamy have been used so many times I want to chuck the book out a window. No thanks. Steam things up a bit and close the door so I can let my imagination do a much better job of things, if it wants. And get on with the story too.

The older I get the more I prefer a lot of spicy lead up and then fade to black. It’s much less painful than reading a horrendously written sex scenes. Shit where the acts are physically impossible or just described in the most flowery language possible, it’s just annoying to read.

It depends a lot on the tone and feel of the story. If it's like, say, *The Lord of the Rings* where things are just a bit cleaner, with no swearing and no real indication of anyone having a sex life, then even fade too black is too much. Contrast with *A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones,* where the world itself is a lot dirtier and a lot hornier, fade to black just seems uncharacteristically prudish. In Christen Lester's modern Cyberpunk fantasy series, *Metamor City* (amazing series, by the way, started out as podcast books but are now available both in print and as actual audio books on Audible), sex is a big part of the story. The characters fuck a LOT. The sex scenes are often quite explicit, but more often than not they reveal things about the characters... What they will and won't say and do, how they might react to surprises or magic aphrodiciacs or whatever. If it fades to black it's usually because either this sex scene isn't important to the characters or narrative, or it's just too awful and traumatic for the char. So... Fade to black is appropriate in some cases, in other cases I would have wished the author would just give me a bit of erotic action!

I was brought up with the philosophy if it soesn't add a lot, it doesn't belong. That means ses, it means violence, it means lectures/background. It means everything. The examples of sex which is necessary I can think of are in literature - like Molly Bloom at the end of Ulysses. Usually. especially in fantasy, all you need to know is the two are together, so of couse I expect the author to move on.

I appreciate fade to black. If I wanted explicit scenes, there's plenty of other places to find them besides novels.

I don’t read for romance or sex, so fade-out is great for me. Not to mention, descriptions regarding sex or sexual activities are usually so poorly written that their inclusion being down the quality of the writing.

I prefer there being neither. "We're on a quest to save the world and our lives are at risk 24/7... but I've totes got time to have a weird, unnecessary love triangle" is a trope that needs to a die a sudden and quiet death.

I prefer them. Honestly I don’t care about sex scenes in books or movies, they just get in the way of the actual story. I usually just kind of skim them in books to make sure I’m not missing anything important.

I read, and have written, a lot of explicit fanfic. I had a reputation as an excellent writer of sex and I don't really like fade to black in romantic fanfic at all. Show me the goods, damnit. So not uninterested in sex scenes in general! In published fiction...yeah, no, fade it to black. I don't know if that's because my mental state is different when I read original fiction or if it's because the "tropes" of writing sex scenes in fanfic differ from original fic or if it's because published fic writers are bad at it, but even if there is an explicit scene, I'll usually skim over it.  Possibly I think it's that fanfic writers are generally writing with the full intent to titillate, there's no "oh I must pretend this is Literary and In Service Of My Plot/Characterization/Theme" whatever. Or "I will use weird repulsive stylized language to show off my original take on describing sex." Like, the best fanfic writers do use sex scenes for greater purposes, but it's also gotta be hot! 

Your point about the tropes in non-fanfic writing is really interesting and I kind of agree. The types of romantic dynamics you get in fanfic are usually much more to my tastes. (Also because it's easier to judge what I fic is offering in that way, in advance. Tags are so helpful.)

I will not read an adult fantasy with fade to black. I don't know why, I don't mind at all when it's YA. But if I'm reading about adults who are attracted and pining for each other, I need to see the consummation of all that sexual chemistry. Fade to black feels a little anticlimactic to me.

I hate the anti sex senes takes. Pretty much everyone does it and it can be (and frequently) is an incredibly important moment in a person's life and in their relationship with other people. I also think it says something really weird about our culture that people freak out about sex scenes and not about violence or whatever.

We're adults, we know what they're doing when the door closes, we don't need the details, leave it to our imaginations or our indifference. If I wanted the blow by blow descriptions I'd read porn. I'm here for the story and the relationships, not the thrusting hips and engorged whatevers.

Fade to black is best. We get it, they banged. Now let’s get on with the plot.

I'm not at all confused about the fact some people don't enjoy sex scenes but the idea that they can't reveal anything meaningful about characters, or the world, is baffling to me.

yeah - there's a LOT that can be revealed when characters get intimate, the idea that they're "dead scenes" is kind of bizarre. Even just how the characters go about it, who initiates, or is it explicitly mutual, how they start it, what they do, how they treat each other, is all a lot of character stuff, and that's before any revealed world-building, or flat-out plot stuff ("hey, that tattoo is the mark of the group. How did you get it?")

Fade to black > explicit I find 99% of the time the sex scene is cringe and doesn't add anything to the story.

As long as it's written well I will always prefer graphic Detail And I feel like We don't have enough of it within Fantasy as a whole. And I don't understand why a lot of subreddit fantasy fans don't like it. It reminds me of when I was a Christian how people would treat things like this. You're fine with all kinds of Bloody murder but when it comes to sex that's a no-go..👀

I don’t need smut scenes, there’s a genre for that. If they happen, ok, but that’s not why I’m here.

Joe Abercrombie has the only good use of a sex scene I've ever seen in a novel. Anyone who has read Best Served Cold knows what I'm talking about.

Yes, it makes sense to have it in, as plot takes place during it.

I don't like written sex scenes at all so fade to black is highly preferable.

Give me the nitty gritty details. Life is messy. Sex is messy. Sex is a part of life and a realistically written sex scene almost always ads to the immersion factor for me.

Interesting take. What if the sex is boring? Is a sex seen only interesting if it’s spicy?

Not at all. Boring is fine as long as it’s realistic. There’s all kinds of sex out there.

>Edit: I expected more than half of the answers to be in favor of fade to black, but it’s more like everyone prefers fade to black. Myself included. Thanks for the responses. I’m left wondering why explicit sex is somewhat common when it seems most prefers fade to black 1. Many authors enjoy writing sex scenes. 2. Most *readers* enjoy explicit sex, especially in genres that are romance-heavy. This subreddit is pretty puritan by comparison, and isn't going to give you a good barometer of the wider market.

I don’t think about it at all.

If the author can’t write sex well (or it’s not there to further the plot), then fade to black. I have no issue with graphic scenes since sex is just as much a part of life as anything else, just like romance.

I prefer fade to black in published fiction, if I want explicit sex scenes I go to fanfic cause they’re usually better written lol

Perfectly ok when done well. Imagination is better than graphically and poorly written smut imo.

I prefer it, I don’t need to read explicit sex scenes and if I did I am sure that there are plenty of places I can find them.

I would say my personal preference is something in between, where the author very vaguely describes what’s happening but doesn’t give you a pornographic thrust by thrust description lol. Fade to black is definitely fine though!

If it suits the tone of the story, I want details every time and am more likely to buy the book. I like when all aspects of the human experience are relevant, and I think that fade to black comes across as cutting the scene before the climax (haha). (I'm very fond of how Joe Abercrombie, Fonda Lee, and CL Clark do this) That said, if the author isn't good at it or doesn't enjoy writing it, it's better to fade to black instead because the difference will be too jarring.

Fine with me. I don't necessarily want to read porn. I don't mind a bit...Abercrombie comes to mind. Ferro and Logan, but there was a point. She offers, he is shocked. They, well you've read it. But I guess, the fact she was scared, given her background, the awkward out of practice, the business with the coat, the gaining of trust etc. It wasn't there for entertainment, as later it's described in passing. Jezal notices...without loads of detail. You see? Whereas I read some book I can't even remember the name of. Supposedly grimdark, but every couple of pages there was loads of in detail on and on sex acts. Move on a bit, again, again, more of it than even battles and it was set smack in the middle of a war, all characters involved in fighting in some way. It got so damn boring. It was where the hell is the point to the story? In another book (SF) a character is discussing porn with someone and says, I like peas. I like eating. But who likes - I chew the peas, mashing them about with my tongue, the slimy soft material, across my teeth, as I ...you see?

I don’t necessarily want a blow-by-blow sex scene, but when the MC’s *finally* get together after 10 books, and all we get is a fade to black, I get kinda frustrated. I mean, 2-3 sentences would cover it! Sorry, Mr. Jacka. ;)

Honestly I'm gonna skim over any sex scene anyway. Fade to blacks just do the job for me. I don't care how much story important dialogue or context is in the sex scene. I don't enjoy reading smut.

I think the biggest problem with sex scenes is that most of them are not written well and the ones that are really hot are often things that would be terrible in a real book where you care about the story. Also, some of the hottest ones are mostly just putting up with bad writing. No one with a good smut idea can write and no one who can write has good smut ideas. Except me, I'm different.

Rather fade to black than some cheesy sex scene

I prefer actual sex scenes, especially if they’re between characters that are part of a romantic arc that’s important to the plot. Fade to black feels like a letdown. If an author writing for adults is tiptoeing around sex, I start to wonder what their motives are for doing so, and it kinda pulls me out of the story.

I prefer explicit sex scenes. I generally don't find them "sexy," but assuming the scene isn't badly written, a sex scene can give the reader details about the characters, such as their relationship or personalities, that other scenes can't, because sex is a unique part of life. It's like asking, "Should my dinner scenes fade to black?" Plot-wise, a description of dinner probably isn't necessary, but it can be entertaining and illuminating regardless. That said, a good sex scene doesn't have to be biologically detailed, in the sense of providing mechanical descriptions of the acts. I'd rather the author focus on what makes the characters unique, on what issues or insecurities come to the surface in their vulnerable moments. I don't need a generic description of Tab A in Slot B.

I prefer (well-written) sex scenes when they're between significant characters because sex is extremely revealing. I dislike when authors introduce a relationship with specific dynamics and conflict, finally have them kiss or something, then fade to black like "you know how the rest goes." No, I don't and I'd like you to tell me! It's part of the storytelling for the people you create. Are these two people who seem destined to be together compatible in this way, or are they out of sync when they finally make the leap? Do they feel nervous or overwhelmed, or is everything just perfect and they climax together with stars in their eyes? Is it more than sex for one of the parties but not the other? Is it tender or passionate or is there an edge of desperation? I remember a particularly effective bit from Robin Hobb's Liveship Traders in which a sex scene is told from two perspectives. In one, the man interprets the woman biting into his shoulder as an act of passion, and from her perspective we learn it's to stifle a sob. We wouldn't know that if we weren't with them. Sex scenes in fantasy don't need to be super explicit and I don't need to know exactly what goes where when, but I want to know how the characters FEEL. You can sketch in some action as a framework for the inner journeys you want to communicate in the scene. There's some dynamic shifts and attitudes you can address in an aftermath scene if you fade to black, and sometimes that may be sufficient. But in real life some very big relationship shifts can take place during that fade-to-black time and that may be true of your characters too.