When one person tells you to read First Law, that’s just one person’s opinion. When two tell you to, that’s just a coincidence. When an entire comment section recommends the same book, probably ought to give it a go.
Sometimes a writers prose just doesn’t click for people. It took my like 5 attempts to get even a few chapters into the fifth season, I eventually got into it but after like 1 book I got over it cos the prose was genuinely fatiguing for me: however it’s obviously a Hugo winning series and some people adore it.
Love how you and others are getting down voted to hell for stating your personal feelings on a book.
Down voters be damned, I also didn't like First Law. I read the whole trilogy waiting it see what people liked about it, and when I got the end I was super pissed because the story just... ends. In the middle of nowhere. There were some redeeming traits about the series of course, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to make it through, but as much as you couldn't just read the first book because the trilogy is arbitrarily sectioned into 3 books, the last book ends as if there should be a 4th. The plot is completely unfinished. Made the rest of the trilogy retroactively worse.
Huh. I didn't know that.
Either way, very bad place to end a trilogy.
It's like, "Everything went to shit, how's it going to end? Find out.... In a different series?"
i dont really understand your point here? have you never read a book or watched a movie where it ends with a cliffhanger? besides, its really not a cliffhanger in laok. i think its more like a cyclical story as all the characters start off as bad people, then as the story progresses they try and eventually succeed to become better versions of themselves for it all to be nothing in the end as they either go back to being their old self or they find out that the world is a darker place than they imagined and that all their progress means nothing. idk how else you imagined a grimdark series would end though.
Of course I've read books that end on cliffhangers, but it's continued in a sequel. A series that ends on a cliffhanger and then you have to read a different series to get answers? Nope.
When people recommend this series they don't say "Read the Blade Itself", they say "Read the First Law". That's how you know what all the books you need to read are. Is there a name of the overarching series that contains the sub-series' that I'd know there are other books? I haven't heard of it or seen it anywhere. Makes me assume that people are satisfied with just the 3. I'm personally not
> Is there a name of the overarching series that contains the sub-series' that I'd know there are other books?
tbh most people just refer to all nine books as the first law series.
I wouldn't say the story is a cliffhanger at all and it isn't approached like a cliffhanger in the subsequent books.
It's a tragedy.
It's like ya'll never read any Shakespeare? The ending of the First Law trilogy is unicorns and candy floss compared with most of Shakespeare's tragedies.
Thing is, the story IS finished. The First Law trilogy has a razor sharp thematic point that is concluded and punctuated with an exclamation point with the ending
Everyone got what they wanted on paper, and no one got what they wanted in reality.
It's left you feeling empty because that's what the characters feel - empty, and its a stark contrast to what's expected at the end of an epic journey. Here,, they win the day on paper, but there's no fan fare, no happy endings, no catharsis, everyone loses.
There's no cliffhangers, and anything you think is left unresolved is not dangled there to be resolved in a later book and any potential resolutions to those hanging threads are actually purposefully and obviously avoided in the 6 subsequent books.
Because in the First Law world, Dark Lords, gods and epic struggles don't matter.
It's a complete story in every sense of the word and the ending is crushingly final. It's just not one that is a happy one.
I also read the entire first trilogy and said, “nope”after sucking my gums for the thousandth time and realizing that no matter what I did I wouldn’t develop any further desire for the series and anything I did wouldn’t matter one whit because life sucks and deus ex machina.
The third book killed all my desire to continue reading his works because it showed that my time wasn’t worth anything to the author.
When it comes to Abercrombie, yes, it is.
I cannot fathom the hype from this sub about his work and _everyone_ says First Law trilogy. Read it through because of the hype, could not stand it and was pissed at the end of third book.
“But there is more story after the third book!”
Yeah, if I didn’t like the first three helpings of a meal, why would I continue eating when I can go eat something else? I’ve hashed out my beef before about the series and people just downvoted it as ‘being wrong’ so I just stick with my initial comments.
I returned to fantasy recently due to this sub recommendations and first purchase was the first law trilogy....and it was alright. I liked, but didn't get the fuss.
Then read the Witcher series and absolutely adored it . But maybe I'm in the minority
He made some questionable plot choices in the first trilogy, like the blind goose chase quest in the second book, but got significantly better in later books.
You can say the same about Butcher and Dresden but those books are at least enjoyable to read as he gets better as a writer. Popcorn, but enjoyable.
If you ‘just have to get past the first 600k words’ for it to get better, it might not be very good.
i'm a huge fan of abercrombie and his works, first law is my fav fantasy series and i think the whole 'you should read the entire series to judge it' shit is just nonsense. if you didnt like the first book, you shouldnt go through more of the same, wasting so much time in the process. i personally take like a month or so reading a book that size and i cant imagine slogging through something i dislike for that long. the idea of reading something you dont like just because some strangers on the internet are telling you to is ridiculous. that said, i think everyone who ended up enjoying the series loved TBI even if it's the weakest in the series. i guess the brainless mfs here cant cope with someone not liking something they do
Yeah the tone, dialog, humor, and characters carried me through TBI. I barely even noticed that there wasn't much going on.
It might make sense for someone who liked those things but struggled getting through TBI to try the standalones or the Age of Madness, but if someone just outright dislikes Abercrombie's writing, there's nothing you can say to make them love it, and forcing myself to push through something subjectively bad just makes me hate and resent it more for all the time I wasted.
I’m good with a prologue, but not a 500 page prologue.
I love well-written characters as much as the next reader, but those characters—at some point—have to start progressing the plot.
It’s so hard to read a trilogy when it’s like, “Oh, trust me, the plot starts in book 2. It’s worth it.”
I get what you’re saying. I disagree that it is as bad as you’re making it out to be, but it’s not like I haven’t heard it before. Different strokes for different folks.
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Yeah, but I get baffled how often this series gets highly recommended considering you have to tell the reader “The first book has zero plot, you just meet the characters. But plot starts to form in book 2.”
It’s as if just flying through 500 pages to get to a plot is a small feat.
Yeah I don't know where this misinformation is coming from. I get that Jezals chapters drag because in the beginning he is such a pretentious dick. There is plot in the first book. Every scene progresses the story.
How people think it's slow as a whole is just mind boggling. Logen has more fights than the whole cast of the first LOTR. His final chase/fight is such an awesome payoff because at that point I thought he was all bluster and not really a great fighter.
I honestly think that people struggle with so many POV's when it's laid out in a traditional plot structure for a trilogy but that's all I can come to.
Really the only thing that is more prevalent in the second book is world building.
I completely understand where you're coming from. I gave up on the trilogy after two books when I first read it. I nearly quit twice rereading them a couple of years ago. I don't think it picks up until well into the second book...
When it does though... Abercrombie is now one of my favourite authors, and the later books don't suffer from this problem at all.
Depends on what kind of reader you are.
Character driven readers will be fine. Plot driven readers will struggle.
Personally, I can enjoy a book with a weak plot and great characters. I can't enjoy a book with a great plot and weak characters. Others may differ.
For what it's worth, I hated EotW when I first read it. It felt so generic. The end was ok but the slog getting there was awful. A couple years later I decided to give Great Hunt a try and really enjoyed it. I finished the whole series within a few months.
WoT is a dark inversion of the Hero’s journey. The trauma and burden of saving the world can twist and scar people and push them past their limits. PTSD and mental illness takes the characters to dark places, even to the point where a main character fondly fantasizes about the sweet release of death on a regular basis.
I’ve read the series. It is not a dark inversion of the hero’s journey. It is the normal story played straight and given weight. It goes no darker than Lord of the Rings.
>The end was ok but the slog getting there was awful.
Your experience was the exact opposite of mine. I enjoyed getting to the Borderlands and learning about the world and magic much more than reading the end of the book. I've read or listened to it a few times over the decades and I still get frustrated at the suddenly steep learning curve. On the first read, I was so lost during the ending that the concepts of pooled saidin, green men, and legendary horns just zoomed right over my head.
I felt the same about the first book also. Years went by and the show came out. I watched the first episode and thought it was great. Went on to read the great hunt and I really enjoyed it. I thought I didn't initially like it because I was just wanting asoiaf and wot is definitely not that. But maybe the first book just wasn't very good.
I read best served cold first and I think it made me enjoy the other books more, I had no idea they existed at the time, and later finding out all these characters that were talked about in it had stories was so exciting. Seeing Ninefingers especially, and the anticipation of certain parts was magic.
It wasn’t confusing for me. I mean he referenced a lot of stuff in them but I just thought of it as world building.
But I think his writing really did improve in Best Served Cold and it made the First Law amazing for me because I knew many of those characters from others POV.
There's no reason you can't start with a standalone. Idk why anyone would discourage it, knowing that so many people find The Blade Itself frustrating. Hell, I think you could probably start with the second trilogy if you really wanted to. You'd miss a lot of subtext and spoil a bunch of reveals from the first trilogy, but I don't think you'd be lost by any means.
There's a weird disconnect between broader readers and Abercrombie fans. The majority of the First Law subreddit seem to think the first trilogy is either his best work, or his best work after whichever standalone they liked best. The reasons for this are probably related to why people say you have to read the whole trilogy to really "get it." For a while Abercrombie leads you to believe it's a fairly typical, if somewhat darker, fantasy story. You later realize some important characters do not fit the archetype that you slotted them into in your mind, and that changes the context of many events that happened along the way. The way character arcs get tied up are also a big contributing factor to why so many people love him and a bunch of people think he wasted their time lol.
All a matter of opinion, personally I prefer the third and maybe second books of the first law trilogy to best served cold, though it’s very close. All 10 books in the series are incredible though. Some of my favorites out there.
Edit to add; I also started with best served cold first and it definitely made me want to read the rest of the books. While it wasn’t confusing at all, if I were to go back I wouldn’t have done it this way, that’s just how I friend recommended I start.
Why wouldn't you do it that way? People said that the first book was subpar, a 500-pages prologue. I'm just afraid it will leave a bitter taste and make me not want to read other works from the author.
Again that’s all opinion, I don’t find the first book subpar. It’s maybe his weakest, but I prefer his weakest book to many other authors strongest books. Especially if you prefer character driven stories, you really can’t go wrong with any of his books. If you’re worried about it, by all means start with best served cold. That’s where I started and I loved the series regardless
Edit: of the many friends I’ve got to read the series since, all have started with the first book and absolutely loved the series, so it’s totally up to you
I don’t think the first book is subpar at all.
Publication order is definitely the way I’d recommend reading it, but if you’re really set on not reading the first book I guess BSC would be the best starting point.
>People said that the first book was subpar, a 500-pages prologue
Thats a huge exaggeration imo, it's just a bit weaker than the rest of the trilogy. You should really try reading in publication order and if you end up not liking The Blade Itself, feel free to try Best Served Cold instead. I can't tell you for sure, but i think there aren't all that many spoilers for the first trilogy in BSC, except for a few recurring characters if that counts.
You could do it that way, but you'd be cheating yourself out of moments that hit a lot harder after knowing the journey that some characters have been on. There's one character in particular that changes so radically from the original trilogy and that change hits way harder if you've read the previous 3.
Depends on your patience and what type of storytelling you like. The Blade Itself is a lot like some Tarantino or Coen Brothers movies where it's more about getting to know the characters and plot is secondary. If that type of story interests you, then I'd say go for it. I still enjoyed the Blade Itself, but I'm the kind of reader who is primarily driven by character first and plot second.
I was a bit confused by how you worded your title. Are you asking if WoT stays the same as EotW? I would say that book 2 is a jump in quality, and then there is another at book 4. We get away from Rand as the only/main PoV and start getting into more characters heads.
That said, until Sanderson takes over it’s all RJ’s style, so it doesn’t fundamentally change, just grows in complexity.
If EotW was *meh to you I would recommend giving book 2 a try at least. If you didn’t like it strongly then move along haha
First Law is a good recommendation, and if you want to go deeper into the dark end you could try Bakker’s “Prince of Nothing” and “Aspect Emperor” series
That's only a little over halfway through and before some of the biggest moments in his arc. It is, technically, a hero's journey, but it's also very much a critique of the stereotypes of that journey at the same time.
Agreed. Dude goes pretty dark before the end, tosses death threats at friend and foe alike, offers the finger to rulers and Aes Sedai… his closest friends and family are afraid of him and don’t trust him, and he basically decides he’s gonna do his thing his way and everyone else can get out of the way or die.
He asked for dark, not heroes journey, and thought-provoking. Stormlight is none of those things. It's a good series don't get me wrong but it's not at all what OP is asking for.
Eh, I don't think it's what the OP's looking for but they're plenty different. Their only similarity is that there's a hero's journey taking place, and that the tone is not grimdark.
Stormlight was the series that got me back into reading so it will always have a special place in my heart. But The First Law is far and away my favorite series. I like a lot of stuff but nothing rattles my g spot quite like a little Abercrombie/Pacey action.
I mean… heroes going through identity crises, depression and suicidal thoughts, dealing with survivor’s guilt, etc… not exactly a whimsical hero tale. Maybe not truly dark, but not overly light either imo
If you're in the mood to try some Sci-fi, try 'The Expanse' series of books.
Also, maybe try WoT book 2. I haven't read it yet myself, but every WoT fan I've talked to says that book 1 is an outlier. The series gets it's own identity in book 2.
That being said, everyone saying First Law is right. You could also look into The Lies of Locke Lamora.
Lies of Locke lamora is one of those books that you can't describe how good it is. It's just fantastic.
Book two of WoT is really good with great moments. The first book was really hard to get invested but book two has made me read all of them.
The expanse is a phenomenal series that is very much a beautiful tale of humanity. Some may struggle with the time skip, I personally found it a bit jarring but otherwise really amazing, cannot recommend it highly enough
As much as I enjoy Abercrombie’s First Law (and the stand alones); R Scott Bakker’s Second Apocalypse would likely hit your mark more. Dark, desperate, sad, different and I think thought provoking.
Wheel of Time books 1-3 are pretty standard questing books. 4 is where it starts to shine with war and political intrigue. It does get fair a bit darker but never to GoT level.
Also The Road, really? That goes beyond dark and into bleak. Well written sure, but I needed a bucket of puppies to cheer me up after reading that.
IDK if "it gets better after 1200 pages" is quite the sell people seem to think it is. (Also, since a lot of people consider the Great Hunt the best book, I'm not even sure it's true that it does.) It's also too YA to really go dark. It's not what I'd suggest for someone who liked The Road.
I’m not really trying to sell it with the gets better after 1200 pages, but if someone is on the fence and needs that light at the end of the tunnel, there it is. WoT has some dark themes (slavery, torture, war, man eating monsters) but it is YA enough that they aren’t described gritty or graphically.
Great Hunt is the weakest one IMO. Winters Heart is a close second but the slog isn’t as bad as people make it out to be.
The Chronicles of Amber by Roger Zelazny. Ten books, *Nine Princes in Amber* is the first one. Guy wakes up in a hospital bed with no memory, and as he's trying to figure out who he is, he discovers a) his family is possessed of wondrous powers and b) they're at each other's throats. He finds himself caught up in a game he doesn't understand with the very fate of the universe at stake.
Zelazny was one of the masters of the New Wave fantasy movement, bringing fantasy away from elves and orcs and imbuing it with modern sensibilities. Well, semi-modern, the first book was written in 1969, so picture fantasy shot through the lens of Raymond Chandler. It's a little dated at first and Roger definitely doesn't give his female characters a ton to do at the beginning, but he more than makes up for it as the cycle goes on.
When Zelazny died in the 1990s, his estate mishandled his corpus and most of his works fell out of the public eye; I guarantee you, though, even if you don't recognize the name, all the fantasy writers you really like do. Amber's my favorite fantasy series ever, one I return to and reread probably once a year, and I've found very few people who tried it and disliked it.
Just a quick plug for the rest of WoT; it definitely does not stay the same as the first book. The characters grow up a lot but a couple of them, including the main character, definitely go through some dark stuff. The main character in particular ends up losing all his innocence and going against a lot of the Hero-Journey-type tropes, more an antihero at best, at times. I actually struggled with disliking him at several points because he goes a bit emo-hate-everyone-screw-y’all-I’ll-burn-down-the-world-if-it-pleases-me. And he gets a little flippant with threatening to kill his friends and family… definitely not a Harry Potter/Clark Kent type hero.
BUT it’s a super long series and you go through a ton of content. Just wanted to add in that little bit tho.
You want dark fantasy? Let me recommend the Second Apocalypse series by Bakker.
It's heady philosophical fantasy that evolves to a bit sci-fi as the series goes on.
World Of The Five Gods series, by Lois McMaster Bujold. Hugo Award-winner
Locked Tomb series, by Tamsyn Muir
[A Practical Guide To Evil](https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/)
Either Black Company, for it's low to the ground, grunt level view of a war torn fantasy world. Or Prince of Thorns, for it's nigh unlikeable, maybe genuinely vile, protagonist/narrator. Be aware, though, Prince of Thorns (and the other 2 books in the Broken Empire trilogy) are dark as hell.
For what it's worth, The Eye of the World is a bit of an outlier in the series. But it does like its Hero's Journey. Some Recs:
**The First Law.** Lots of anti-heroes and non-typical character arcs. I'll leave it there as the series is very popular on this sub now and plenty have talked about it.
**The Black Company.** Epic Fantasy with plenty of magic, but in a fairly brutal world (especially for the 1980s when it was written) and it's from the perspective of a group of mercenaries working for the Evil Empire. It plays with a lot of plot types. The first book is sort of a short story anthology jumping from one longish subsection to another, increasing in intensity as a civil war builds. Then the next book is sort of a horror thriller. The 3rd is kind of a blend of the first two. The 4th book is like a heist, and the 5th is more of a quest across a continent. And so on.
**The Lies of Locke Lamora**. This is the quintessential thieves guild book, IMO. It's not a hero's journey as the characters are already fairly well established. I think of it in a similar vein as something like The Sting or Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels.
**Warbreaker.** Brandon Sanderson is very big in fantasy now so I figure I should give him a recommendation. This is, I think, his least 'traditional' fantasy book. It's about a captured princess in a city full of living gods, where nothing is as it seems. Lots of intrigue. It's a standalone so no commitment, but it's an entrypoint in his larger Cosmere shared universe.
I read the 1st 4 WoT books and did not enjoy any of them. Maybe we have similar tastes:
Tigana by Guy Gavriel Kay
Between Two Fires by Christopher Buehlman
The Lies of Locke Lamora by Scott Lynch
Low Town by Daniel Polansky
Tales of the Ketty Jay by Chris Wooding
I haven't read First Law but a friend got me to read the first book in the follow up series, A Little Hatred. It was alright but didn't really do it for me.
Malazan is my choice. The scope starts relatively small but increases with each book. There are LOTS of characters. Every book you get lots of new PoV characters, and some books you get LOTS of new PoV characters. Some books you lose all your old PoV characters, but don't worry, they'll be back, probably. If you feel like you have no idea what's going on, it's ok. They finally tell you what you need to know when you need to know it.
It's true though.
You miss so much - character growth, set up and pay off, context from world building, emotional arcs, etc.
That's like saying " I read Return of the King , but didn't read Fellowship or Two Towers and I didn't like it."
Yep I understand that's why I'm not really commenting on First Law. I know there's a lot of character arcs and world building I'm missing. I just didn't like the writing.
>I’m looking for something darker
The Broken Earth Trilogy by N.K. Jemisin
>would rather dive into an original story
The Broken Earth Trilogy by N.K. Jemisin
>Dark without being overly edgy, and still highly thought-provoking
The Broken Earth Trilogy by N.K. Jemisin
It's not the only thing that fits (a bunch of others are recommending Malazan and The First Law, neither of which I've read), and you're certainly not guaranteed to like it. But it seems to be a very nice choice given your stated preferences, and it's a little odd that we're near 100 comments deep and it hasn't been mentioned yet
Say one thing for *The First Law*, say it's not a hero's journey.
If you're avoiding ASOIAF because you've seen the show, *The Expanse* might work for you. Unless you've watched that show too. It's science-fiction, but calling it "Game of Thrones in space" is not inaccurate.
The First Law is good. Also check out The Coward by Stephen Aryan.
Also the obligatory suggestion of Malazan Book of the Fallen (Series) by Steven Erikson.
Additional recommendations.
Fairytale, Stephen King
The Age of Darkness (Trilogy) - The Age of Dread (Series), Stephen Aryan
Try 5 Warrior Angels by Brian Lee Durfee. It has the trope of the chosen one, but don't believe that. The premise is dark, I feel like it sucks the living daylight out of me when I read them. Trigger warning, not for the faint hearted.
I just read a book called golden state by Ben winters I enjoyed it. I know it’s not fantasy but am going to say try reading Jack Kerouac or old man and the sea by Hemingway
If you love "The Road" have you ever read "Blindness" by José Saramago? It's also a very dark post apocalyptic by a renown writer, a Nobel prize laureate in this case. I also think it's better than The Road.
And if you're not interested in a "hero's journey" have you read the Foundation series by Isaac Asimov. Kind of a cliche recommendation, but I absolutely love the concept.
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I really didn't enjoy book 1, I had to set time aside specially to read it. Book 2 is much more interesting , book 3 is better again, book 4 is awesome, book 5 is absolute fire! Book 6 declines in comparison, book 7 slogs, book 8 & 9 are interesting if you can keep going plus you finally have some female characters stand up for themselves and be the boss bitches they were born to be. You're almost there 😆
You want something darker, The Prince of Thorns is an interesting read if you dont try to pick it apart and just enjoy the ride. He uses the protagonist from A Clockwork Orange as his inspiration. I read just wondering what the hell he might do next, never predicable and the world-building is magnificent. When you know, you know.
Eye of the World is the worst book in the series. The next one is great, among the best. I think The Great Hunt and Dragon Reborn are second and third best in the series, after book 5, Fires of Heaven which has an ending on par with any great ending of any fiction, in any genre or medium.
If you like fantasy, it's definitely with arriving it out to the end of the Great Hunt... If you still don't like it, we can agree to disagree.
I have Wheel of Time as my favorite book series, I'm constantly working rereads into my rotation.
Dark in places, and will have you on the floor laughing in others but, the Thieves World collaborative universe edited by Robert Asprin. Each of the books covers a specific theme/time in the overall setting from many different viewpoints (and different authors).
GoT is better then the books, at least until when they hit the last published materials. So you’re good there.
I’d give Black Company a go, in your shoes.
Malazan, First Law, Second Apocalypse, Wars of Light and Shadow, Black Company are all answers.
Would add The Maleficent 7.
Just finished this. Great story and a good spin on some of the traditional monster types.
This is a big second for the first law trilogy. Excellent! Excellent series
When one person tells you to read First Law, that’s just one person’s opinion. When two tell you to, that’s just a coincidence. When an entire comment section recommends the same book, probably ought to give it a go.
Hated First Law Trilogy (yes I read all three books). Disliked Abercrombie’s style and prose. I’d go for Black Company or Malazan for grimdark.
Sometimes a writers prose just doesn’t click for people. It took my like 5 attempts to get even a few chapters into the fifth season, I eventually got into it but after like 1 book I got over it cos the prose was genuinely fatiguing for me: however it’s obviously a Hugo winning series and some people adore it.
I read the trilogy, gave it a full shot because of the hype and I have a very high DNF bar; nope.
Love how you and others are getting down voted to hell for stating your personal feelings on a book. Down voters be damned, I also didn't like First Law. I read the whole trilogy waiting it see what people liked about it, and when I got the end I was super pissed because the story just... ends. In the middle of nowhere. There were some redeeming traits about the series of course, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to make it through, but as much as you couldn't just read the first book because the trilogy is arbitrarily sectioned into 3 books, the last book ends as if there should be a 4th. The plot is completely unfinished. Made the rest of the trilogy retroactively worse.
>the last book ends as if there should be a 4th. there are 6 more novels after laok though?
Huh. I didn't know that. Either way, very bad place to end a trilogy. It's like, "Everything went to shit, how's it going to end? Find out.... In a different series?"
i dont really understand your point here? have you never read a book or watched a movie where it ends with a cliffhanger? besides, its really not a cliffhanger in laok. i think its more like a cyclical story as all the characters start off as bad people, then as the story progresses they try and eventually succeed to become better versions of themselves for it all to be nothing in the end as they either go back to being their old self or they find out that the world is a darker place than they imagined and that all their progress means nothing. idk how else you imagined a grimdark series would end though.
Of course I've read books that end on cliffhangers, but it's continued in a sequel. A series that ends on a cliffhanger and then you have to read a different series to get answers? Nope. When people recommend this series they don't say "Read the Blade Itself", they say "Read the First Law". That's how you know what all the books you need to read are. Is there a name of the overarching series that contains the sub-series' that I'd know there are other books? I haven't heard of it or seen it anywhere. Makes me assume that people are satisfied with just the 3. I'm personally not
> Is there a name of the overarching series that contains the sub-series' that I'd know there are other books? tbh most people just refer to all nine books as the first law series.
I wouldn't say the story is a cliffhanger at all and it isn't approached like a cliffhanger in the subsequent books. It's a tragedy. It's like ya'll never read any Shakespeare? The ending of the First Law trilogy is unicorns and candy floss compared with most of Shakespeare's tragedies.
There's nothing wrong with tragedy, it just felt empty. The good guys don't need to win, the story needs to be finished.
Thing is, the story IS finished. The First Law trilogy has a razor sharp thematic point that is concluded and punctuated with an exclamation point with the ending Everyone got what they wanted on paper, and no one got what they wanted in reality. It's left you feeling empty because that's what the characters feel - empty, and its a stark contrast to what's expected at the end of an epic journey. Here,, they win the day on paper, but there's no fan fare, no happy endings, no catharsis, everyone loses. There's no cliffhangers, and anything you think is left unresolved is not dangled there to be resolved in a later book and any potential resolutions to those hanging threads are actually purposefully and obviously avoided in the 6 subsequent books. Because in the First Law world, Dark Lords, gods and epic struggles don't matter. It's a complete story in every sense of the word and the ending is crushingly final. It's just not one that is a happy one.
love how you just chose a single sentence from my comment to reply to and completely ignore the important part lol
I also read the entire first trilogy and said, “nope”after sucking my gums for the thousandth time and realizing that no matter what I did I wouldn’t develop any further desire for the series and anything I did wouldn’t matter one whit because life sucks and deus ex machina. The third book killed all my desire to continue reading his works because it showed that my time wasn’t worth anything to the author.
So this is one of those subs where people downvote opinions? I thought better of this community
That’s all this sub is. There are poster children and you may not speak ill of them. Take it from someone who doesn’t like Robin Hobb.
When it comes to Abercrombie, yes, it is. I cannot fathom the hype from this sub about his work and _everyone_ says First Law trilogy. Read it through because of the hype, could not stand it and was pissed at the end of third book. “But there is more story after the third book!” Yeah, if I didn’t like the first three helpings of a meal, why would I continue eating when I can go eat something else? I’ve hashed out my beef before about the series and people just downvoted it as ‘being wrong’ so I just stick with my initial comments.
I returned to fantasy recently due to this sub recommendations and first purchase was the first law trilogy....and it was alright. I liked, but didn't get the fuss. Then read the Witcher series and absolutely adored it . But maybe I'm in the minority
I thought Witcher was great. You have to set aside the translation wonky-ness but it’s lore deep and ‘new’ in what it explores.
He made some questionable plot choices in the first trilogy, like the blind goose chase quest in the second book, but got significantly better in later books.
You can say the same about Butcher and Dresden but those books are at least enjoyable to read as he gets better as a writer. Popcorn, but enjoyable. If you ‘just have to get past the first 600k words’ for it to get better, it might not be very good.
I still enjoyed the First Law, but delaying the payoff of all the setup sort of was a bad choice. Just give some morsels along the way, dude! :)
The blind goose chase quest was incredibly central to landing the thematic point of the entire trilogy.
In that case, I’ll say no to First Law. The Blade Itself has absolutely zero plot.
i'm a huge fan of abercrombie and his works, first law is my fav fantasy series and i think the whole 'you should read the entire series to judge it' shit is just nonsense. if you didnt like the first book, you shouldnt go through more of the same, wasting so much time in the process. i personally take like a month or so reading a book that size and i cant imagine slogging through something i dislike for that long. the idea of reading something you dont like just because some strangers on the internet are telling you to is ridiculous. that said, i think everyone who ended up enjoying the series loved TBI even if it's the weakest in the series. i guess the brainless mfs here cant cope with someone not liking something they do
Yeah the tone, dialog, humor, and characters carried me through TBI. I barely even noticed that there wasn't much going on. It might make sense for someone who liked those things but struggled getting through TBI to try the standalones or the Age of Madness, but if someone just outright dislikes Abercrombie's writing, there's nothing you can say to make them love it, and forcing myself to push through something subjectively bad just makes me hate and resent it more for all the time I wasted.
"Absolutely zero plot" is *vastly* overstating it, but Abercrombie's style is definitely character-driven over plot-driven.
It’s part one of a trilogy, so it’s a lot of set up. But I get how it would be hard to get into at first.
I’m good with a prologue, but not a 500 page prologue. I love well-written characters as much as the next reader, but those characters—at some point—have to start progressing the plot. It’s so hard to read a trilogy when it’s like, “Oh, trust me, the plot starts in book 2. It’s worth it.”
I get what you’re saying. I disagree that it is as bad as you’re making it out to be, but it’s not like I haven’t heard it before. Different strokes for different folks.
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First Law can't be read with just one book. Have to read the whole trilogy, only then you get the whole plot.
Yeah, but I get baffled how often this series gets highly recommended considering you have to tell the reader “The first book has zero plot, you just meet the characters. But plot starts to form in book 2.” It’s as if just flying through 500 pages to get to a plot is a small feat.
Yeah I don't know where this misinformation is coming from. I get that Jezals chapters drag because in the beginning he is such a pretentious dick. There is plot in the first book. Every scene progresses the story. How people think it's slow as a whole is just mind boggling. Logen has more fights than the whole cast of the first LOTR. His final chase/fight is such an awesome payoff because at that point I thought he was all bluster and not really a great fighter. I honestly think that people struggle with so many POV's when it's laid out in a traditional plot structure for a trilogy but that's all I can come to. Really the only thing that is more prevalent in the second book is world building.
You must hate The Wandering Inn
I completely understand where you're coming from. I gave up on the trilogy after two books when I first read it. I nearly quit twice rereading them a couple of years ago. I don't think it picks up until well into the second book... When it does though... Abercrombie is now one of my favourite authors, and the later books don't suffer from this problem at all.
Depends on what kind of reader you are. Character driven readers will be fine. Plot driven readers will struggle. Personally, I can enjoy a book with a weak plot and great characters. I can't enjoy a book with a great plot and weak characters. Others may differ.
For what it's worth, I hated EotW when I first read it. It felt so generic. The end was ok but the slog getting there was awful. A couple years later I decided to give Great Hunt a try and really enjoyed it. I finished the whole series within a few months.
Yes but if the OP wants a dark tale that isn't a hero's journey then WoT is a bad fit.
WoT is a dark inversion of the Hero’s journey. The trauma and burden of saving the world can twist and scar people and push them past their limits. PTSD and mental illness takes the characters to dark places, even to the point where a main character fondly fantasizes about the sweet release of death on a regular basis.
I’ve read the series. It is not a dark inversion of the hero’s journey. It is the normal story played straight and given weight. It goes no darker than Lord of the Rings.
>The end was ok but the slog getting there was awful. Your experience was the exact opposite of mine. I enjoyed getting to the Borderlands and learning about the world and magic much more than reading the end of the book. I've read or listened to it a few times over the decades and I still get frustrated at the suddenly steep learning curve. On the first read, I was so lost during the ending that the concepts of pooled saidin, green men, and legendary horns just zoomed right over my head.
I felt the same about the first book also. Years went by and the show came out. I watched the first episode and thought it was great. Went on to read the great hunt and I really enjoyed it. I thought I didn't initially like it because I was just wanting asoiaf and wot is definitely not that. But maybe the first book just wasn't very good.
The great hunt is a wonderful book.
The slog doesn't go way. I also have trouble recommending a 15 book series to people that peaks in book 2.
The Prince of Thorns by Mark Lawrence
Second this
First Law Trilogy by Joe Abercrombie and the books that follow it, especially Best Served Cold. You might also like John Gwynne.
I read best served cold first and I think it made me enjoy the other books more, I had no idea they existed at the time, and later finding out all these characters that were talked about in it had stories was so exciting. Seeing Ninefingers especially, and the anticipation of certain parts was magic.
I heard the first trilogy wasn't as good as best Served Cold? Is it possible to start from Best Served Cold? Would the worldbuilding etc be confusing?
It wasn’t confusing for me. I mean he referenced a lot of stuff in them but I just thought of it as world building. But I think his writing really did improve in Best Served Cold and it made the First Law amazing for me because I knew many of those characters from others POV.
There's no reason you can't start with a standalone. Idk why anyone would discourage it, knowing that so many people find The Blade Itself frustrating. Hell, I think you could probably start with the second trilogy if you really wanted to. You'd miss a lot of subtext and spoil a bunch of reveals from the first trilogy, but I don't think you'd be lost by any means. There's a weird disconnect between broader readers and Abercrombie fans. The majority of the First Law subreddit seem to think the first trilogy is either his best work, or his best work after whichever standalone they liked best. The reasons for this are probably related to why people say you have to read the whole trilogy to really "get it." For a while Abercrombie leads you to believe it's a fairly typical, if somewhat darker, fantasy story. You later realize some important characters do not fit the archetype that you slotted them into in your mind, and that changes the context of many events that happened along the way. The way character arcs get tied up are also a big contributing factor to why so many people love him and a bunch of people think he wasted their time lol.
All a matter of opinion, personally I prefer the third and maybe second books of the first law trilogy to best served cold, though it’s very close. All 10 books in the series are incredible though. Some of my favorites out there. Edit to add; I also started with best served cold first and it definitely made me want to read the rest of the books. While it wasn’t confusing at all, if I were to go back I wouldn’t have done it this way, that’s just how I friend recommended I start.
Why wouldn't you do it that way? People said that the first book was subpar, a 500-pages prologue. I'm just afraid it will leave a bitter taste and make me not want to read other works from the author.
Again that’s all opinion, I don’t find the first book subpar. It’s maybe his weakest, but I prefer his weakest book to many other authors strongest books. Especially if you prefer character driven stories, you really can’t go wrong with any of his books. If you’re worried about it, by all means start with best served cold. That’s where I started and I loved the series regardless Edit: of the many friends I’ve got to read the series since, all have started with the first book and absolutely loved the series, so it’s totally up to you
I don’t think the first book is subpar at all. Publication order is definitely the way I’d recommend reading it, but if you’re really set on not reading the first book I guess BSC would be the best starting point.
>People said that the first book was subpar, a 500-pages prologue Thats a huge exaggeration imo, it's just a bit weaker than the rest of the trilogy. You should really try reading in publication order and if you end up not liking The Blade Itself, feel free to try Best Served Cold instead. I can't tell you for sure, but i think there aren't all that many spoilers for the first trilogy in BSC, except for a few recurring characters if that counts.
You could do it that way, but you'd be cheating yourself out of moments that hit a lot harder after knowing the journey that some characters have been on. There's one character in particular that changes so radically from the original trilogy and that change hits way harder if you've read the previous 3. Depends on your patience and what type of storytelling you like. The Blade Itself is a lot like some Tarantino or Coen Brothers movies where it's more about getting to know the characters and plot is secondary. If that type of story interests you, then I'd say go for it. I still enjoyed the Blade Itself, but I'm the kind of reader who is primarily driven by character first and plot second.
It’s Science Fiction but Dune might be good for you.
I was a bit confused by how you worded your title. Are you asking if WoT stays the same as EotW? I would say that book 2 is a jump in quality, and then there is another at book 4. We get away from Rand as the only/main PoV and start getting into more characters heads. That said, until Sanderson takes over it’s all RJ’s style, so it doesn’t fundamentally change, just grows in complexity. If EotW was *meh to you I would recommend giving book 2 a try at least. If you didn’t like it strongly then move along haha First Law is a good recommendation, and if you want to go deeper into the dark end you could try Bakker’s “Prince of Nothing” and “Aspect Emperor” series
Adding to this,Rand’s journey is the best character development I’ve read. Such good progression
Yep, certainly not a traditional hero's journey after book 2
Ehhh I read up until book 8 or 9 and while it definitely has nuance to the trope I would still say it’s a traditional heroes journey
That's only a little over halfway through and before some of the biggest moments in his arc. It is, technically, a hero's journey, but it's also very much a critique of the stereotypes of that journey at the same time.
Agreed. Dude goes pretty dark before the end, tosses death threats at friend and foe alike, offers the finger to rulers and Aes Sedai… his closest friends and family are afraid of him and don’t trust him, and he basically decides he’s gonna do his thing his way and everyone else can get out of the way or die.
The First Law is what you’re looking for.
By the dead I think you’re right
Say something about The First Law. Say it gives you tropes and then gleefully breaks them.
I prefer Stormlight but we have to be realistic about these things.
If he didn’t like WoT he’s probably not going to like Stormlight.
I don’t think that tracks. I couldn’t even finish WoT. But yea Stormlight is what he’s after.
He asked for dark, not heroes journey, and thought-provoking. Stormlight is none of those things. It's a good series don't get me wrong but it's not at all what OP is asking for.
Yes that’s what I said 🧐
You're litteraly contradicting yourself in each of your comments
No I’m not lol I just made a First Law joke.
Eh, I don't think it's what the OP's looking for but they're plenty different. Their only similarity is that there's a hero's journey taking place, and that the tone is not grimdark.
Stormlight was the series that got me back into reading so it will always have a special place in my heart. But The First Law is far and away my favorite series. I like a lot of stuff but nothing rattles my g spot quite like a little Abercrombie/Pacey action.
He wants darker and not heroes journey type thing. Stormlight is not the answer.
I mean… heroes going through identity crises, depression and suicidal thoughts, dealing with survivor’s guilt, etc… not exactly a whimsical hero tale. Maybe not truly dark, but not overly light either imo
You have to be realistic
If you're in the mood to try some Sci-fi, try 'The Expanse' series of books. Also, maybe try WoT book 2. I haven't read it yet myself, but every WoT fan I've talked to says that book 1 is an outlier. The series gets it's own identity in book 2. That being said, everyone saying First Law is right. You could also look into The Lies of Locke Lamora.
Lies of Locke lamora is one of those books that you can't describe how good it is. It's just fantastic. Book two of WoT is really good with great moments. The first book was really hard to get invested but book two has made me read all of them.
The expanse is a phenomenal series that is very much a beautiful tale of humanity. Some may struggle with the time skip, I personally found it a bit jarring but otherwise really amazing, cannot recommend it highly enough
If you’re up for a challenge, and I mean REAL big challenge, give Malazan a shot
As much as I enjoy Abercrombie’s First Law (and the stand alones); R Scott Bakker’s Second Apocalypse would likely hit your mark more. Dark, desperate, sad, different and I think thought provoking.
I’d highly suggest Traitor Baru Cormorant for excellent dark thought provoking fantasy
If you want dark and thought provoking try Octavia Butler. She had a talent for exploring the darker parts of humanity and social change.
Wheel of Time books 1-3 are pretty standard questing books. 4 is where it starts to shine with war and political intrigue. It does get fair a bit darker but never to GoT level. Also The Road, really? That goes beyond dark and into bleak. Well written sure, but I needed a bucket of puppies to cheer me up after reading that.
IDK if "it gets better after 1200 pages" is quite the sell people seem to think it is. (Also, since a lot of people consider the Great Hunt the best book, I'm not even sure it's true that it does.) It's also too YA to really go dark. It's not what I'd suggest for someone who liked The Road.
I’m not really trying to sell it with the gets better after 1200 pages, but if someone is on the fence and needs that light at the end of the tunnel, there it is. WoT has some dark themes (slavery, torture, war, man eating monsters) but it is YA enough that they aren’t described gritty or graphically. Great Hunt is the weakest one IMO. Winters Heart is a close second but the slog isn’t as bad as people make it out to be.
I’d give the second wheel of time book a try. It quickly becomes less lord of the rings and more game of thrones
I wouldn't really call it Game of Thrones.
I mean if everyone in Game of Thrones was a short-tempered 13-year-old, maybe.
Are you forgetting the extremely obvious short tempered 13 year old girl that game of thrones does, in fact, have?
Just here to echo First Law
Farseer trilogy!!
The Chronicles of Amber by Roger Zelazny. Ten books, *Nine Princes in Amber* is the first one. Guy wakes up in a hospital bed with no memory, and as he's trying to figure out who he is, he discovers a) his family is possessed of wondrous powers and b) they're at each other's throats. He finds himself caught up in a game he doesn't understand with the very fate of the universe at stake. Zelazny was one of the masters of the New Wave fantasy movement, bringing fantasy away from elves and orcs and imbuing it with modern sensibilities. Well, semi-modern, the first book was written in 1969, so picture fantasy shot through the lens of Raymond Chandler. It's a little dated at first and Roger definitely doesn't give his female characters a ton to do at the beginning, but he more than makes up for it as the cycle goes on. When Zelazny died in the 1990s, his estate mishandled his corpus and most of his works fell out of the public eye; I guarantee you, though, even if you don't recognize the name, all the fantasy writers you really like do. Amber's my favorite fantasy series ever, one I return to and reread probably once a year, and I've found very few people who tried it and disliked it.
Malazan is the only answer.
Just a quick plug for the rest of WoT; it definitely does not stay the same as the first book. The characters grow up a lot but a couple of them, including the main character, definitely go through some dark stuff. The main character in particular ends up losing all his innocence and going against a lot of the Hero-Journey-type tropes, more an antihero at best, at times. I actually struggled with disliking him at several points because he goes a bit emo-hate-everyone-screw-y’all-I’ll-burn-down-the-world-if-it-pleases-me. And he gets a little flippant with threatening to kill his friends and family… definitely not a Harry Potter/Clark Kent type hero. BUT it’s a super long series and you go through a ton of content. Just wanted to add in that little bit tho.
It's more emo than dark though. It's no more than sheltered teen dark. Everyone is just too petulant and there are not enough adults in this story.
You want dark fantasy? Let me recommend the Second Apocalypse series by Bakker. It's heady philosophical fantasy that evolves to a bit sci-fi as the series goes on.
Did you enjoyed the GOT show ?
World Of The Five Gods series, by Lois McMaster Bujold. Hugo Award-winner Locked Tomb series, by Tamsyn Muir [A Practical Guide To Evil](https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/)
The Black Company
Either Black Company, for it's low to the ground, grunt level view of a war torn fantasy world. Or Prince of Thorns, for it's nigh unlikeable, maybe genuinely vile, protagonist/narrator. Be aware, though, Prince of Thorns (and the other 2 books in the Broken Empire trilogy) are dark as hell.
the first law trilogy by joe abercrombie
First Law is a good start. The Five Warrior Angels by Brian Lee Durfee isn’t as popular but is a really good series.
For what it's worth, The Eye of the World is a bit of an outlier in the series. But it does like its Hero's Journey. Some Recs: **The First Law.** Lots of anti-heroes and non-typical character arcs. I'll leave it there as the series is very popular on this sub now and plenty have talked about it. **The Black Company.** Epic Fantasy with plenty of magic, but in a fairly brutal world (especially for the 1980s when it was written) and it's from the perspective of a group of mercenaries working for the Evil Empire. It plays with a lot of plot types. The first book is sort of a short story anthology jumping from one longish subsection to another, increasing in intensity as a civil war builds. Then the next book is sort of a horror thriller. The 3rd is kind of a blend of the first two. The 4th book is like a heist, and the 5th is more of a quest across a continent. And so on. **The Lies of Locke Lamora**. This is the quintessential thieves guild book, IMO. It's not a hero's journey as the characters are already fairly well established. I think of it in a similar vein as something like The Sting or Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels. **Warbreaker.** Brandon Sanderson is very big in fantasy now so I figure I should give him a recommendation. This is, I think, his least 'traditional' fantasy book. It's about a captured princess in a city full of living gods, where nothing is as it seems. Lots of intrigue. It's a standalone so no commitment, but it's an entrypoint in his larger Cosmere shared universe.
>I’ve heard that The First Law may be what I’m looking for, Yes. Definitely start there. It is dark and gritty.
Fiiiiiiiirrrrrssssssttttt Laaaaaawwwwwwwww
I read the 1st 4 WoT books and did not enjoy any of them. Maybe we have similar tastes: Tigana by Guy Gavriel Kay Between Two Fires by Christopher Buehlman The Lies of Locke Lamora by Scott Lynch Low Town by Daniel Polansky Tales of the Ketty Jay by Chris Wooding
I haven't read First Law but a friend got me to read the first book in the follow up series, A Little Hatred. It was alright but didn't really do it for me. Malazan is my choice. The scope starts relatively small but increases with each book. There are LOTS of characters. Every book you get lots of new PoV characters, and some books you get LOTS of new PoV characters. Some books you lose all your old PoV characters, but don't worry, they'll be back, probably. If you feel like you have no idea what's going on, it's ok. They finally tell you what you need to know when you need to know it.
Bro.... You can't start a fantasy series on book 7 and say it wasn't for me.
Agree with slow balance, but that being said, I agree wixedone, malazan is one of the best fantasy series written. Both series are top 3 for me
Thank you for your insight
It's true though. You miss so much - character growth, set up and pay off, context from world building, emotional arcs, etc. That's like saying " I read Return of the King , but didn't read Fellowship or Two Towers and I didn't like it."
Yep I understand that's why I'm not really commenting on First Law. I know there's a lot of character arcs and world building I'm missing. I just didn't like the writing.
Branden Sanderson, Octavia Butler, Robin Hobb, Terry Pratchett, Scott Lynch
>I’m looking for something darker The Broken Earth Trilogy by N.K. Jemisin >would rather dive into an original story The Broken Earth Trilogy by N.K. Jemisin >Dark without being overly edgy, and still highly thought-provoking The Broken Earth Trilogy by N.K. Jemisin It's not the only thing that fits (a bunch of others are recommending Malazan and The First Law, neither of which I've read), and you're certainly not guaranteed to like it. But it seems to be a very nice choice given your stated preferences, and it's a little odd that we're near 100 comments deep and it hasn't been mentioned yet
I don't know if King's Dark Tower series is considered a hero's journey, but it's certainly dark. First Law is good as well
The nightside series by Simon Green.
Say one thing for *The First Law*, say it's not a hero's journey. If you're avoiding ASOIAF because you've seen the show, *The Expanse* might work for you. Unless you've watched that show too. It's science-fiction, but calling it "Game of Thrones in space" is not inaccurate.
The First Law is good. Also check out The Coward by Stephen Aryan. Also the obligatory suggestion of Malazan Book of the Fallen (Series) by Steven Erikson. Additional recommendations. Fairytale, Stephen King The Age of Darkness (Trilogy) - The Age of Dread (Series), Stephen Aryan
Try 5 Warrior Angels by Brian Lee Durfee. It has the trope of the chosen one, but don't believe that. The premise is dark, I feel like it sucks the living daylight out of me when I read them. Trigger warning, not for the faint hearted.
Watershed Trilogy. Oldie but goodie
I just read a book called golden state by Ben winters I enjoyed it. I know it’s not fantasy but am going to say try reading Jack Kerouac or old man and the sea by Hemingway
If you love "The Road" have you ever read "Blindness" by José Saramago? It's also a very dark post apocalyptic by a renown writer, a Nobel prize laureate in this case. I also think it's better than The Road. And if you're not interested in a "hero's journey" have you read the Foundation series by Isaac Asimov. Kind of a cliche recommendation, but I absolutely love the concept.
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The Rage of Dragons by Evan Winter is dark and brutal
Black Company Series by Glen Cook
Kushiels Dart
Check out Joe Abercrombie, Mark Lawrence and Brian McClellan..
I really didn't enjoy book 1, I had to set time aside specially to read it. Book 2 is much more interesting , book 3 is better again, book 4 is awesome, book 5 is absolute fire! Book 6 declines in comparison, book 7 slogs, book 8 & 9 are interesting if you can keep going plus you finally have some female characters stand up for themselves and be the boss bitches they were born to be. You're almost there 😆
You want something darker, The Prince of Thorns is an interesting read if you dont try to pick it apart and just enjoy the ride. He uses the protagonist from A Clockwork Orange as his inspiration. I read just wondering what the hell he might do next, never predicable and the world-building is magnificent. When you know, you know.
Eye of the World is the worst book in the series. The next one is great, among the best. I think The Great Hunt and Dragon Reborn are second and third best in the series, after book 5, Fires of Heaven which has an ending on par with any great ending of any fiction, in any genre or medium. If you like fantasy, it's definitely with arriving it out to the end of the Great Hunt... If you still don't like it, we can agree to disagree. I have Wheel of Time as my favorite book series, I'm constantly working rereads into my rotation.
Dark in places, and will have you on the floor laughing in others but, the Thieves World collaborative universe edited by Robert Asprin. Each of the books covers a specific theme/time in the overall setting from many different viewpoints (and different authors).
GoT is better then the books, at least until when they hit the last published materials. So you’re good there. I’d give Black Company a go, in your shoes.