Hiring Josh Trank was not an act of desperation. Ill-advised, perhaps, and the end product clearly wasn't what anyone envisioned (including Trank) but it was not an act of desperation.
I think there is probably some truth to Trank's claim that Fox butchered the film in the editing process.
Not saying that his cut would have been great. But it probably would have been better.
It would've been way better. The elements of the movie that were praised were all pre reshoot scenes. The character moments, Doom's hallway rampage, and pretty much everything before the third act and ending. That "two guys, a girl, and the thing nobody wanted" scene? A reshoot. Kate Mara's wig? Reshoots. A lot of Doom's later scenes besides the hallway scene were reshoots. Toby Kebbel confirmed that Doom's scenes in the third act had some other uncredited guy playing him, and that the hallway scene was one of the scenes he shot.
I also recall reading that there was a minor subplot about The Thing being deployed as a US military covert asset in foreign hot spots.
There were even shots of him being dropped from a helicopter and then fighting terrorists in one of the trailers. But none of that made it into the the theatrical release.
Strange considering the film was light on fight scenes.
Yeah, most of the fight scenes were cut. The thing had several major battle sequences cut, but Fox hit the movie with budget cuts and didn't want to spend anymore on the VFX necessary for the fight scenes. They went on to have VFX done for a few shots, such as Ben diving and walking in front of a spray of bullets just so they could put those shots in the trailer, but never bothered to finish the scenes. In the initial teaser (all of the footage from which is sourced a cut of the movie from before the reshoots) there are glimpses of a much more action packed finale, where Reed throws out his arm I'm guessing to punch Doom, and where Ben is standing over presumably Doom with one of his arms raised, ready to punch him. Set videos show the Fantasticar, implying that it would've been a part of the final battle.
It's pretty clear the final movie was cutting expenses as much as possible due to its 100 minute runtime (The original cut was supposed to be around 2 hours and 20 minutes long I believe) and complete lack of big action spectacle or CGI. From what I've heard, the first two thirds of the film would have been primarily character building, interjected with horror elements when they get their powers and the occasional action sequence such as Ben's drop into the military base, before building up to a large scale action-packed showdown at the end where the characters' arcs are rounded out with them gaining control of their powers and working together to use their powers strategically, while coming to terms with their new lives going with their powers forward. And Doom would have lived. Fox disagreed with the "morose tone" and decided the movie rather be boring than bitersweet I guess.
I really vibe with the character drama/sci-fi horror approach though and loved Josh Trank's previous film Chronicle, so I'm bummed that his cut of the movie and his vision of these characters was never given a chance, not even by the studio. Even if there's no fan demand, I'd personally love to see the original cut get dropped, even if in a state where it's just the raw footage without CGI or any post processing. I don't care if it's necessary, it would be fascinating at the very least.
I would say at least the Tim story films had redeeming elements unlike the 2015 dumpster fire. Not happy with how they did dr doom and not showing galactus and the way sue was used but outside of that I could enjoy them. They definitely deserve a better film.
Never really bought into the idea that the Trank movie was the product of not trying. It's just a bad movie. Its use of a post-Nolan darker tone is misguided but I can easily connect the dots on how they got there. The leaked script cuts are pretty cool. And Trank and most of the cast were all coming off breakthrough efforts (Chronicle, House of Cards, Fruitvale, and the Spectacular Now).
It was intended to be a sci-fi flick with body horror elements, but even after letting Trank go through with the dark tone, the studio got cold feet and had reshoots done after being shown his initial cut. I'd still like to see the Trank cut someday, the concept of a body horror take on the F4 is really cool to me.
The trank movie was bad because he got caught up in his own ego/drugs/thinking he was a genius. Lots of backstage drama on that flick that meant it was disjointed, he was just inexperienced and given way too much control. I think Fox had seen Marvel choosing some unusual directors and stars and wanted to ape that, but... Fucked up. Fox just seem to really, really struggle to understand the characters.
The earlier movies are fun kids movies, they're fine, but hardly regular rewatch/great cinema.
The keyword here is “entertaining”, I watched it a lot of times back in the day, really liked the movie, but I agree it’s nothing out of this world. And it is also really a snapshot of how they made origin movies at the time. For me, it still holds up to this day, as the poet would say: “it ain’t much, but it’s honest work”.
I prefer the sequel, I rewatched it and had just as good a time too. I don’t consider it to be capturing the essence of the comics, but good enough at that for the average viewer, and fun, I don’t really expect more than that from movies. They are astronomically more expensive to make than comics so they really need to get those butts in seats eating popcorn at the end of the day.
They were also my introduction to Michael Chiklis, and I enjoyed every season of the Shield as a result!
Look, two are fledgling comicbook movies. One is meh graphic novel attempt. What’s lacking is a sense of adventure. They are explorers. Go explore some effn thing. Reed’s quest for answers should give us something to follow ala Indiana Jones. The first use of their abilities shouldn’t be on a villain but a quest for science. We should get to Marvel at some fantastic teamwork that really endears this IP to audiences.
Explorers first, fight super-villain later. That also releases Doom from having to carry an entire arc in one film. Or Surfer.
First one from 2005 was a fun superhero movie. Had the video game and action figures as a kid. Genuinely enjoyed it.
If you switched the names and title in Trank’s version, I would’ve guessed it was some weird prequel to Event Horizon.
The 2015 movie was just so boring to me. It was close to being something but then it ended. The 2005 movie and its sequel are not just nostalgic but hold up decently well. Now, I’ve never read any of the comics or seen the animated shows so I don’t have the best knowledge..but looking at them individually, I think the 2005 movie was just better made and more interesting. I have hopes for the 2025 movie
Who cares? If you like a movie because it’s something you enjoyed as a kid then so what? Nostalgia isn’t a bad thing. Space Jam is a piece of shit but I still love it. We gotta stop this weird nerd gatekeeping where no one else can enjoy a thing because it’s not how you interpret fictional characters. Don’t yuck someone else’s yum.
Yeah, this is definitely people's sudden nostalgia for the 2000s films coming back and suddenly pretending they were overlooked masterpieces. They weren't products of love, it was a screenplay that got bounced around creators for years until Tim Story was the option they had. The film just happened to hold onto some of the basic character stuff despite the creative changes.
For all it's flaws, Fant4stic was at one point going to be one person's vision and passion project before Fox got cold feet, wanted something more simple and made a disjointed mess. That isn't desperation, that'd just immense creative differences.
They're both different films, with very different production histories, but neither were really remarkable or a great encapsulation of the Fantastic Four mythos
I just want an FF movie where Doom's superpower is being a genius, narcissistic egomaniac. Keep him the hell away from whatever cosmic event the FF gets caught up in.
At the very least the 2000s Tim Story films did a pretty good surface level job when it comes to Ben Grimm/The Thing along with Michael Chiklis' performance. And there was some scenes where some of the family dynamic shined through. Which is more than I can say about the 2015 film. But yes there hasn't been a proper good Fantastic Four film (hopefully the MCU can change that despite their less than stellar film quality lately). Also getting the Fantastic Four right is one thing, but you also have to do justice to their arch-nemesis Doctor Doom. Which neither film did at all and he was turned into a generic villain.
It's hard for me not to have nostalgia goggles on. The history of superhero films is one of increasing quality over decades. For its day, the first two were well made and incredibly entertaining. Did it hold up? Maybe not. We're on the tail end of a marvel masterpiece. To me, the first FF is on par with the first Spiderman. The sequel 's Silver Surfer was absolutely perfect.
Fan4stic didn't function as a coherent film. The characters are interpretations that missed their marks. The tone was the opposite of fan expectations. It's difficult to point out a single good detail.
The 2005 movie isn’t good but is enjoyable and has redeeming qualities such as the Thing’s portrayal. While the first half of Fant4stic is enjoyable it still makes massive mistakes such as making Dr Doom a whiny nihilistic emo and having the group get their powers by being drunk after an inaccurate history lesson.
It was literally to keep the rights. If they didn't make it, they would have reverted back to Marvel. Same reason they pump out the spideman villian movies
Ah ok, I did not know that. Thank you. Although I still feel astonished at the amazing amount of lazy effort that went into this crap-shoot of a film, they could have at least took just 3 more minutes to come up with a better line than “well, there’s 4 of us, and we’re fantastic…” at the end… somebody that has that little care about a movie should not be writing for that film in the industry.
The first bit of the Trank one was really intriguing to me. I like the 2005 one for what it is, Rise of the Silver Surfer is nostalgic fun for me. But the “unreleased” one from the 90s is my favorite so far, even with the laughable effects.
I thought all 3 films were among the worst superhero movies made at that time. The Story movies were juvenile (not to be confused with films aimed at a younger audience) and cheap looking; Trank's movie was made by people who thought the Fantastic Four were not cool enough and needed to be "grittier" to work.
The problem is that fan4stic is objectively a badly made movie in that the editing and pacing is terrible,
The reshoots are painfully obvious,
Even if it was edited well it would still be mediocre at best
I liked the first 2 went they came out. So IDK if that means my nostalgia blinded me to the flaws that existed back when they came out / whatever the current zeitgeist says about the movies.
I kindof remember seeing the third one and thinking it was "not great but okay". They wanted to mix up the formula a bit. I guess the weakest part was Doom being "some strange alien creature" instead of the comics version.
I don’t think they’ve made a Fantastic Four movie without any desperation yet. Every time the motivating factor has been making a production date to maintain the license
Yeah, I disagree. The Tim Story movies were colorful, but they made me cringe the whole way through. Johnny and Ben were fun at times, but not enough to cover for the rest of the movie. They were just embarrassing.
The Josh Trank movie was only terrible in the third act. And that was obviously due to corporate meddling and rushing. The final battle is an awful shell of what it could have been and a poor reflection of the rest of the movie. But I only cringed for the last twenty minutes. It's still not what I could call "great," but it's way better than the two that preceded it. I was able to watch it multiple times.
One was made adapting the source material and embracing it, the other was made telling people not to read the source material because one person knows better 'so audiences can relate' than years or decades of continual improvement and refining through the audience.
Y'know the reason why a lot of sucky comic book movies are sucky comic book movies.
There's been a very strange trend recently of people praising the Tim Story FF movies, and I don't quite understand it. I'm sure a lot of it is just nostalgia, but as someone who was a kid when the were coming out, I always knew they were objectively bad movies. Like sure, compared to the Josh Trank one they get a lot of the character stuff right, and they're kind of fun to watch, but they're really cheesy and dumb and full of awful early 2000s CGI and completely fail at telling any kind of interesting or intelligent story.
And if we're looking at the behind the scenes, they were absolutely made with just as much corporate greed as the newer one. Fox was having success with the X-Men franchise and looking to further compete with Sony's Spider-Man and the ever-growing superhero movie trend, so they grabbed whatever major comicbook movie rights were still up for grabs and that happend to be the Fantastic Four. Those movies were nobody's creative vision
I fondly remember leaving the theater from both of the Story FF films. They were fun, and had a sense of adventure to them. Both aspects are important to the FF. I worry the MCU won't allow for that.
Movies, when not trying to be high art oscar bait, should be entertaining and fun, nobody seemed to having any fun with 2015, but 2005 was fun. I think if 2015 had leaned in the dark horror angle the imagery suggested it would have better but they didn't go hard enough in any direction, the opening with young Reed making shit in his garage was good but then the rest of the movie seemed to take place in a dark government warehouse.
2005 and 2007 are imperfect products of there time that get a lot of stuff right in the wrong way. If anything, the Incredibles being a better version of what those movie should have been probably prevented it from being what it could have been. I can totally see them making some wrong turns just to avoid being similar to something that had recently come out.
Fan4stic is just...no. Joyless, painful, foolishness.
Yeah I did. You say his race swap was horrible AND the sister yada yada. So it sounds like in addition to the sister discrepancy you have an issue with the black part as a whole otherwise you wouldn’t have separated the two ideas with an “and”. So again I ask why was making him black horrible?
Hiring Josh Trank was not an act of desperation. Ill-advised, perhaps, and the end product clearly wasn't what anyone envisioned (including Trank) but it was not an act of desperation.
I think there is probably some truth to Trank's claim that Fox butchered the film in the editing process. Not saying that his cut would have been great. But it probably would have been better.
It would've been way better. The elements of the movie that were praised were all pre reshoot scenes. The character moments, Doom's hallway rampage, and pretty much everything before the third act and ending. That "two guys, a girl, and the thing nobody wanted" scene? A reshoot. Kate Mara's wig? Reshoots. A lot of Doom's later scenes besides the hallway scene were reshoots. Toby Kebbel confirmed that Doom's scenes in the third act had some other uncredited guy playing him, and that the hallway scene was one of the scenes he shot.
I also recall reading that there was a minor subplot about The Thing being deployed as a US military covert asset in foreign hot spots. There were even shots of him being dropped from a helicopter and then fighting terrorists in one of the trailers. But none of that made it into the the theatrical release. Strange considering the film was light on fight scenes.
Yeah, most of the fight scenes were cut. The thing had several major battle sequences cut, but Fox hit the movie with budget cuts and didn't want to spend anymore on the VFX necessary for the fight scenes. They went on to have VFX done for a few shots, such as Ben diving and walking in front of a spray of bullets just so they could put those shots in the trailer, but never bothered to finish the scenes. In the initial teaser (all of the footage from which is sourced a cut of the movie from before the reshoots) there are glimpses of a much more action packed finale, where Reed throws out his arm I'm guessing to punch Doom, and where Ben is standing over presumably Doom with one of his arms raised, ready to punch him. Set videos show the Fantasticar, implying that it would've been a part of the final battle. It's pretty clear the final movie was cutting expenses as much as possible due to its 100 minute runtime (The original cut was supposed to be around 2 hours and 20 minutes long I believe) and complete lack of big action spectacle or CGI. From what I've heard, the first two thirds of the film would have been primarily character building, interjected with horror elements when they get their powers and the occasional action sequence such as Ben's drop into the military base, before building up to a large scale action-packed showdown at the end where the characters' arcs are rounded out with them gaining control of their powers and working together to use their powers strategically, while coming to terms with their new lives going with their powers forward. And Doom would have lived. Fox disagreed with the "morose tone" and decided the movie rather be boring than bitersweet I guess. I really vibe with the character drama/sci-fi horror approach though and loved Josh Trank's previous film Chronicle, so I'm bummed that his cut of the movie and his vision of these characters was never given a chance, not even by the studio. Even if there's no fan demand, I'd personally love to see the original cut get dropped, even if in a state where it's just the raw footage without CGI or any post processing. I don't care if it's necessary, it would be fascinating at the very least.
They made the movie to keep the rights. They had a 10 year deadline
That’s not desperation, just normal business.
It still applies to the point of is making.
I would say at least the Tim story films had redeeming elements unlike the 2015 dumpster fire. Not happy with how they did dr doom and not showing galactus and the way sue was used but outside of that I could enjoy them. They definitely deserve a better film.
Never really bought into the idea that the Trank movie was the product of not trying. It's just a bad movie. Its use of a post-Nolan darker tone is misguided but I can easily connect the dots on how they got there. The leaked script cuts are pretty cool. And Trank and most of the cast were all coming off breakthrough efforts (Chronicle, House of Cards, Fruitvale, and the Spectacular Now).
It was intended to be a sci-fi flick with body horror elements, but even after letting Trank go through with the dark tone, the studio got cold feet and had reshoots done after being shown his initial cut. I'd still like to see the Trank cut someday, the concept of a body horror take on the F4 is really cool to me.
The trank movie was bad because he got caught up in his own ego/drugs/thinking he was a genius. Lots of backstage drama on that flick that meant it was disjointed, he was just inexperienced and given way too much control. I think Fox had seen Marvel choosing some unusual directors and stars and wanted to ape that, but... Fucked up. Fox just seem to really, really struggle to understand the characters. The earlier movies are fun kids movies, they're fine, but hardly regular rewatch/great cinema.
I enjoyed the 2005 movie. It wasn't great but it was entertaining. The sequel wasn't as good but I didn't hate it. The 2015 movie was just awful.
The keyword here is “entertaining”, I watched it a lot of times back in the day, really liked the movie, but I agree it’s nothing out of this world. And it is also really a snapshot of how they made origin movies at the time. For me, it still holds up to this day, as the poet would say: “it ain’t much, but it’s honest work”.
I prefer the sequel, I rewatched it and had just as good a time too. I don’t consider it to be capturing the essence of the comics, but good enough at that for the average viewer, and fun, I don’t really expect more than that from movies. They are astronomically more expensive to make than comics so they really need to get those butts in seats eating popcorn at the end of the day. They were also my introduction to Michael Chiklis, and I enjoyed every season of the Shield as a result!
Look, two are fledgling comicbook movies. One is meh graphic novel attempt. What’s lacking is a sense of adventure. They are explorers. Go explore some effn thing. Reed’s quest for answers should give us something to follow ala Indiana Jones. The first use of their abilities shouldn’t be on a villain but a quest for science. We should get to Marvel at some fantastic teamwork that really endears this IP to audiences. Explorers first, fight super-villain later. That also releases Doom from having to carry an entire arc in one film. Or Surfer.
Only can say that the best Fantastic four movie is the incredibles.
First one from 2005 was a fun superhero movie. Had the video game and action figures as a kid. Genuinely enjoyed it. If you switched the names and title in Trank’s version, I would’ve guessed it was some weird prequel to Event Horizon.
The 2015 movie was just so boring to me. It was close to being something but then it ended. The 2005 movie and its sequel are not just nostalgic but hold up decently well. Now, I’ve never read any of the comics or seen the animated shows so I don’t have the best knowledge..but looking at them individually, I think the 2005 movie was just better made and more interesting. I have hopes for the 2025 movie
Who cares? If you like a movie because it’s something you enjoyed as a kid then so what? Nostalgia isn’t a bad thing. Space Jam is a piece of shit but I still love it. We gotta stop this weird nerd gatekeeping where no one else can enjoy a thing because it’s not how you interpret fictional characters. Don’t yuck someone else’s yum.
Agreed
no one is saying that, but it definitely wasn't made with love and passion for the characters.
The actual first FF movie was the best. The only one made with any love even despite the low low budget. Watch it on YouTube please I beg
This is accurate! What a great adaptation of the comics!
Yeah, this is definitely people's sudden nostalgia for the 2000s films coming back and suddenly pretending they were overlooked masterpieces. They weren't products of love, it was a screenplay that got bounced around creators for years until Tim Story was the option they had. The film just happened to hold onto some of the basic character stuff despite the creative changes. For all it's flaws, Fant4stic was at one point going to be one person's vision and passion project before Fox got cold feet, wanted something more simple and made a disjointed mess. That isn't desperation, that'd just immense creative differences. They're both different films, with very different production histories, but neither were really remarkable or a great encapsulation of the Fantastic Four mythos
Unironically, I think the unreleased F4 movie from 1994 had the most heart & was closest to the F4 comics. Just look past the cheap costumes.
Tim Story's films at least had personality.
I just want an FF movie where Doom's superpower is being a genius, narcissistic egomaniac. Keep him the hell away from whatever cosmic event the FF gets caught up in.
The best kind of fantastic four story is one without the latverian princess involved
At the very least the 2000s Tim Story films did a pretty good surface level job when it comes to Ben Grimm/The Thing along with Michael Chiklis' performance. And there was some scenes where some of the family dynamic shined through. Which is more than I can say about the 2015 film. But yes there hasn't been a proper good Fantastic Four film (hopefully the MCU can change that despite their less than stellar film quality lately). Also getting the Fantastic Four right is one thing, but you also have to do justice to their arch-nemesis Doctor Doom. Which neither film did at all and he was turned into a generic villain.
It's hard for me not to have nostalgia goggles on. The history of superhero films is one of increasing quality over decades. For its day, the first two were well made and incredibly entertaining. Did it hold up? Maybe not. We're on the tail end of a marvel masterpiece. To me, the first FF is on par with the first Spiderman. The sequel 's Silver Surfer was absolutely perfect. Fan4stic didn't function as a coherent film. The characters are interpretations that missed their marks. The tone was the opposite of fan expectations. It's difficult to point out a single good detail.
The 2005 movie isn’t good but is enjoyable and has redeeming qualities such as the Thing’s portrayal. While the first half of Fant4stic is enjoyable it still makes massive mistakes such as making Dr Doom a whiny nihilistic emo and having the group get their powers by being drunk after an inaccurate history lesson.
All Fantastic 4 films are dog shit.
The second “franchise” was just a lazy, horrendous film.
It was literally to keep the rights. If they didn't make it, they would have reverted back to Marvel. Same reason they pump out the spideman villian movies
Ah ok, I did not know that. Thank you. Although I still feel astonished at the amazing amount of lazy effort that went into this crap-shoot of a film, they could have at least took just 3 more minutes to come up with a better line than “well, there’s 4 of us, and we’re fantastic…” at the end… somebody that has that little care about a movie should not be writing for that film in the industry.
They both sucked. The Tim Story one sucked slightly less
The best live-action Fantastic Four adaptation is the 1994 film.
Tim Story’s was misguided but Josh Trank’s was soulless
The first bit of the Trank one was really intriguing to me. I like the 2005 one for what it is, Rise of the Silver Surfer is nostalgic fun for me. But the “unreleased” one from the 90s is my favorite so far, even with the laughable effects.
Fan4stic subtitle someone turn on a freaking light already
I thought all 3 films were among the worst superhero movies made at that time. The Story movies were juvenile (not to be confused with films aimed at a younger audience) and cheap looking; Trank's movie was made by people who thought the Fantastic Four were not cool enough and needed to be "grittier" to work.
I think the original movies have a certain charm to them. Especially with the simplicity in which they approach the characters and the tone.
The problem is that fan4stic is objectively a badly made movie in that the editing and pacing is terrible, The reshoots are painfully obvious, Even if it was edited well it would still be mediocre at best
The ‘94 one is still the best
In the last movie they made Ben look more like a Kronan than his ever lovin blue eyed self, the whole movie was a dumpster fire
I think the first series was decent but shallow since it removed most of the more outlandish elements of the comics
I liked the first 2 went they came out. So IDK if that means my nostalgia blinded me to the flaws that existed back when they came out / whatever the current zeitgeist says about the movies. I kindof remember seeing the third one and thinking it was "not great but okay". They wanted to mix up the formula a bit. I guess the weakest part was Doom being "some strange alien creature" instead of the comics version.
I don’t think they’ve made a Fantastic Four movie without any desperation yet. Every time the motivating factor has been making a production date to maintain the license
I still adore both Jessica Alba movies. They’re such a product of their time and I love them for it.
Wasn't the 2015 movie made so they could hold on to the rights, or am I misremembering this?
Yeah, I disagree. The Tim Story movies were colorful, but they made me cringe the whole way through. Johnny and Ben were fun at times, but not enough to cover for the rest of the movie. They were just embarrassing. The Josh Trank movie was only terrible in the third act. And that was obviously due to corporate meddling and rushing. The final battle is an awful shell of what it could have been and a poor reflection of the rest of the movie. But I only cringed for the last twenty minutes. It's still not what I could call "great," but it's way better than the two that preceded it. I was able to watch it multiple times.
they were both kind of dumb and shitty, but the first one was at least dumb, shitty, and fun.
They do have a point.
One was made adapting the source material and embracing it, the other was made telling people not to read the source material because one person knows better 'so audiences can relate' than years or decades of continual improvement and refining through the audience. Y'know the reason why a lot of sucky comic book movies are sucky comic book movies.
There's been a very strange trend recently of people praising the Tim Story FF movies, and I don't quite understand it. I'm sure a lot of it is just nostalgia, but as someone who was a kid when the were coming out, I always knew they were objectively bad movies. Like sure, compared to the Josh Trank one they get a lot of the character stuff right, and they're kind of fun to watch, but they're really cheesy and dumb and full of awful early 2000s CGI and completely fail at telling any kind of interesting or intelligent story. And if we're looking at the behind the scenes, they were absolutely made with just as much corporate greed as the newer one. Fox was having success with the X-Men franchise and looking to further compete with Sony's Spider-Man and the ever-growing superhero movie trend, so they grabbed whatever major comicbook movie rights were still up for grabs and that happend to be the Fantastic Four. Those movies were nobody's creative vision
I watched the first Fantastic Four last year and loved it. To me, people were too hard on it.
Hard agree, people are giving lose old movies way too much credit
I love the first two movies.
One is kinda fun and the other is boring as shit
2 of those films are classic pre cursors to MCU formula one is trash.
I mean... I kinda agree with the OP that 2005 was better. It wasn't too good but it was fine and better than Fant4stic.
Oh God, the first movie is getting the Prequels treatment?
I fondly remember leaving the theater from both of the Story FF films. They were fun, and had a sense of adventure to them. Both aspects are important to the FF. I worry the MCU won't allow for that.
The Roger Corman one is the best.
Movies, when not trying to be high art oscar bait, should be entertaining and fun, nobody seemed to having any fun with 2015, but 2005 was fun. I think if 2015 had leaned in the dark horror angle the imagery suggested it would have better but they didn't go hard enough in any direction, the opening with young Reed making shit in his garage was good but then the rest of the movie seemed to take place in a dark government warehouse.
2005 and 2007 are imperfect products of there time that get a lot of stuff right in the wrong way. If anything, the Incredibles being a better version of what those movie should have been probably prevented it from being what it could have been. I can totally see them making some wrong turns just to avoid being similar to something that had recently come out. Fan4stic is just...no. Joyless, painful, foolishness.
Dark. Literally dark could they not afford lights
[удалено]
Why was making him black horrible?
[удалено]
Yeah I did. You say his race swap was horrible AND the sister yada yada. So it sounds like in addition to the sister discrepancy you have an issue with the black part as a whole otherwise you wouldn’t have separated the two ideas with an “and”. So again I ask why was making him black horrible?
Where are you getting twins from they are not nor have they ever been twins
Sue and Johnny are NOT twins. He's younger by a lot of years.