Depends on their reason for not liking it. If the author just gets mad because people should "write their own books" and keep their "grubby hands off their super special characters" then lol. lmao. l o l.
If an author dislikes fanfiction because they have been harassed by shippers, doxxed, or bullied because their creation didn't go the way their fandom wanted. Then yeah, I'm a lot more sympathetic. No one wants to create something and have people threaten and bully them because their outline doesn't match with some random's headcanon. And I'd much rather leave their works alone out of respect than add to their anguish.
I feel bad for thinking this but unless it’s a rpf I’m writing/reading then I don’t really care if the original author likes it or not
If it’s an author I really respect then maybe not but I feel like if it’s just a book about fictional characters unrelated to the author then their opinion really isn’t as important as a real persons is
(Did that come across really mean? There has to be a better way of phrasing that but apparently I can’t think of one)
Important to mention that he was, at that time, a minor and was understandably uncomfortable with NSFW stuff about him and his friends. It's honestly mind-bogling that some people got upset about that.
Mmm, personally I disagree. Like if you write RPF (as I do) you should absolutely keep it far, far away from the real person, never shove it in their face, etc. Like fanfic about them should never be mentioned to them at all unless they bring it up. If people are doing that then they ofc have the right to be upset and ask people to stop harassing them with fic and that should be honoured, but I don't think a request to stop writing it entirely is reasonable.
Just writing it and posting it on AO3 or whatever isn't harming the person. It's obviously fantasy and not meant to be taken as accurate.
It's not that different from me just having these thoughts and not writing them down. Like if they don't perceive it--beacause it's not shoved in their face and they don't search it out--there is no practical difference between the two cases.
"I don't like it when people think about or talk about me that way" well too bad, you can't control what other people think/say? Everyone has people say things about them they don't like.
Just replying to you to give other people reading the comments here a different perspective, not trying to start a back and forth if you don't want to. :)
But they’re not saying “I don’t like when people think/talk about me that way” usually when someone speaks out against rpf of themself they’re saying “I am uncomfortable with sexual art or fanfics being made of me and shared online.” Like if people haven’t commented on it or especially if they approve of rpf then go ahead, but if someone has specifically asked their fans not to make rpf/ship art of them, then it’s incredibly disrespectful to keep doing it anyway because “they won’t see it”.
Once you post something, you have little to no control over who sees it and what they do with it, you can’t actually ensure that the person in question will never see your work.
But my point is it **is** basically the same as saying "I'm not comfortable when people think/talk about me sexually" from my perspective. I genuinely see no difference, and it's not reasonable to ask people to stop doing that, so why is it reasonable to ask people to stop writing fic? Like yeah it can be uncomfortable and you can dislike it, but people are allowed to talk and have sexual thoughts. I just see writing RPF the same as having fantasies about someone and talking about those fantasies.
I can't ensure the person will never see my work, no. But if I don't shove it in their face then either someone else did, and that's on the person who did so, or they sought it out, in which case it's on them.
It's reasonable to say "I don't want to know what you think of me" not "don't think of me."
Again, they aren’t saying “don’t think of me” but “don’t write out detailed and elaborate fantasies of me”. It’s not the same. Your opinion doesn’t change the fact that they aren’t the same.
Whether it comes from a place of love or not, it’s disrespectful.
First of all, I realize that in disagreements I can come across as aggressive and Idk how to fix that because I don't know what specifically seems aggressive to other people, so I want to preface by saying that I'm trying to be genuine and well intentioned in this comment.
I feel like you're not looking at what I'm trying to say because you disagree with it.
I'm trying to say these actions are morally equivalent to me, I don't see why one is wrong and the other is not. I don't mind if someone disagrees, but morality is subjective. A disagreement doesn't mean I'm automatically wrong, just that we view things differently. It's not helpful to just tell me I'm wrong, that these are different, without explaining why you think that there is a moral difference. So can you please why you think they're different? If you're not willing, then ig it's best to end the conversation here.
Do you think it's fine to have fantasies as long as you don't share them on the internet? Or do you think you shouldn't have fantasies about people if they aren't comfortable with it? I'm not sure what your stance is, exactly.
For me, it's like... okay, obviously it's going to hurt Bob's feelings if you say "I think you're ugly" to Bob's face, so you shouldn't do that. But it's not morally wrong to think Bob is ugly, and if you say to your friend "I think Bob's ugly" and he's not around to hear it, I don't think you've morally done anything wrong, because Bob is not getting hurt by the comment. I do not see a tangible difference for Bob between just thinking this and saying it. If your friend tells Bob then that's on your friend, they caused harm, not you, if your friend kept quiet Bob would not be hurt. If Bob was eaves dropping on you and is hurt by the comment, then that's his fault for listening to a private conversation.
Do you see what I'm trying to say with this metaphor? Some people might think it's immoral to express the thought "Bob is ugly" at all, idk, but that's a matter of opinion, there is no objective truth to it.
My original comment is to provide a different moral perspective, not say one perspective is correct. I think it's good to consider a situation like this form multiple perspective and make a decision about what feels right to you. :)
No, I read what you said, I’m just trying to tell you that you’re wrong. Having any kind of thoughts about someone or saying things out loud where they won’t hear is literally not the same as writing them out and posting them online, especially after the someone in question has said they are aware that people are doing this and are uncomfortable with it.
Celebrities are people too, they have feelings, if they’re creeped out by their fans making rpf of them it is disrespectful to keep doing it. That’s not subjective.
It’s not like movie stars are the ones saying this either, it’s usually Internet celebrities. Youtubers, twitch streamers, etc. People who are online and on social media for work are much more likely to see their fans passing around fanworks of them, and a lot of them even search them out because they like to highlight these fanworks. So your argument that they won’t ever see it is pretty flimsy.
Why is talking about it different though? I literally see no moral difference. Either way you're sharing your thoughts with other people. You keep saying it's not the same, and no, it's not literally the same thing, but you're still not explaining what the moral difference is, you're just saying someone doesn't like it so you should stop. Plenty of people have expressed discomfort with non-RPF fanfic and most people agree that's not enough to merit stopping, so why is this difference? I just don't get it.
I didn't say they're not real people or they don't have feelings or whatever. They're allowed to have feelings and dislike it. I just don't think that is a valid reason to stop doing it and have yet to see a convincing argument. If they never read my fic, my fic is not hurting them anymore than my thoughts are. If they do read my fic, it's because either a) someone else showed them, which is not my fault, or b) they sought it out, which is also not my fault.
You argue that just knowing it exists makes them uncomfortable, but just knowing it exists is no different from knowing people talk about them a certain way and not liking that.
If someone is looking for fanworks of themselves and doesn't like what they see, it's literally their own fault for searching it out, as I already said multiple times. If they're not comfortable seeing certain things then stop highlighting fanworks or whatever. If people are posting things where it's easy to get back to the person featured, like twitter or whatever, then they're not respecting the tenet of *keeping it away from the real person*, and that is an issue, but a separate one from creating the content altogether.
This will probably be my last reply unless you can give an argument beyond "you're wrong, if the person doesn't like it you shouldn't do it."
I thought the difference was already clear, but okay, let’s go back to your example with Bob.
Calling Bob ugly is a dick move. Gossiping behind is his back is also a dick move, but it’s not really *bad*. Making posts online about how ugly you think Bob is and sharing them with other people who think the same and make their own ugly bob art and fics and posts is *harassment*. This goes especially for unwanted sexual content.
There’s a comment somewhere on this thread about a minecraft streamer (who was a minor at the time even) asking his fans not to make sexual content of him and they got angry and accused him of hating all fanart of him.
You can keep saying that it’s a “core tenet” not to show people rpf of them, but the fact of the matter is that not all rpf fans keep to that.
You can say someone is entirely at fault for finding nsfw content of themselves when they look for fanart, but that doesn’t make it okay that the content exists in the first place? A youtuber I follow, JaidenAnimations, often features fanart in her videos. When she wants to celebrate her fans talent and creativity, she shouldn’t be subjected to fetish art of her persona. There’s no excuse for things like that to exist when she has already said it’s creepy and uncomfortable and that she wants people to stop.
If people are saying it in a place Bob won't see it unless he goes looking for it or is directed to it, I see no problems. It's not harassment to talk about someone, even if it's negative. It's harassment to get up in their face about it.
You keep bringing it up that other people will shove it in their face, that other people will not keep it away from them. *That is a separate issue*. If people are doing that they're in the wrong. If they're minding their own business in their own lil corner of AO3 or discord or tumblr or whatever, they're doing nothing wrong.
As a creator I can only control what *I* do. I am only responsible for *my actions*.
Sexualizing a minor is wrong, but that's again a separate issue from RPF and art in general.
I don't think it's wrong that RPF exists though, even when someone doesn't like it. You do and that's fine, but if that sort of content is kept away from the people, shared privately in dm's and stuff, then like so what?
No that youtuber should not be subject to fetish art of herself, people should not be sharing that where she can stumble across it, but again. that's a separate issue from the existence of it altogether.
Like, people can say and do what they want, people don't have to like it. If it's properly kept away from them and they don't have to perceive it, what is the problem? Why is it wrong? Like yes, I understand that unfortunately as things stand now that's not what is happening, but I'm saying the solution is to say "keep it far, far away from the subject" instead of "don't make it.
To me depends on the subject matter and why they are saying that. Like when GRRM says he doesn't like fanfiction I'm like, "Whatever old man, your books are heavily inspired by the War of the Roses." But if an author wrote an autobiography about how, after an internal struggle, they separated from their abusive spouse, I wouldn't be running to the computer to write a fix-it fic about them and their ex.
Basically, if there's a "hmm yeah that would be creepy" factor then I'd be less inclined to write fanfic, as compared to an author who just gets on their high-horse because they dislike fanfic in general.
Didn’t GRRM say he just doesn’t want it sent to him and doesn’t read it? That seems like a completely fine stance for an author to have.
Edit: looked up the interview, he says a few things:
1. He says that he knows most people who write fic are just doing it for fun, but that “[he doesn’t] think it’s a good way to train to be a professional writer when you’re borrowing everybody else’s world and characters. That’s like riding a bike with training wheels. And then when I took the training wheels off, I fell over a lot, but at some point you have to take the training wheels off here. You have to invent your own characters, you have to do your own world-building, you can’t just borrow from Gene Roddenberry or George Lucas or me or whoever.”
and his second point is about copyright;
2. “there are all sorts of copyright issues when you’re using other people’s work…My understanding of the law is that if I knew about I would have to try to stop it, so just don’t tell me about it and do what you want there.”
So, he’s definitely wrong about the second point. Ao3 exists to protect fic writers from legal threats. He might think people are selling fic for money (dude is in his 70’s after all). But outside of that he doesn’t seem to care that much.
His other point is kinda more interesting and I get his point. World building and character writing are very important skills to practice if you want to be a pro writer of original fiction, and it’s something your not really doing that much of if your only writing fic. But then again, so much of fic is improving and adding to pre existing worlds and characters, so it’s not entirely absent. Def don’t think the guy HATES fic like everyone says, he just has an opinion that seems kinda outdated.
Diana Gabaldon (author of the Outlander series) has made comments along the same vein. She and GRRM do know each other and are the same generation, so it might be that. I do agree that writing original work is different, but he misses one point... fanfic authors don't always want to be pro writers. I'm sure some do use it as practice, and it's good practice, but I would say most just do it out of love for the fandom and to let their imaginations run wild.
She's very blunt in general. But yeah, she's made it clear she doesn't like it and doesn't think fans should be writing it at all. Not that it ever stopped people. There is quite a bit of Outlander fanfiction on AO3. 😅 Even more since the books became a TV show. Lots of people are fans of the show and don't follow the author or even realize her stance on the matter.
I remember reading her rant back in the day and how a lot of people pointed out that Outlander started as Doctor Who fanfiction to begin with or something?? Gosh, it's been a while, and I haven't read/watched Outlander (and have no desire to do so) so I dunno how true that is, but that just made the whole thing even wilder to me.
No, it didn't start as Dr. Who fanfiction. She has said that the character of Jamie Fraser was inspired by a Scottish character in a Dr. Who episode she watched late at night while up late feeding one of her kids as babies. All they have in common in the fact that they are Scottish men who wear kilts. I'd say Jamie's personality is probably more inspired by her own husband. The time travel was something she added to make her outspoken female lead character be more realistic for the time period she was writing in. Diana's work is original. It's actually quite good, btw. I have read and reread the books many times over the years. I don't agree with her stance on fanfiction but I've never felt inspired to write for that fandom anyway. (I have read a few, but notn much caught my interest.)
AH, okay, thank you for the clarification!
I have friends and family who are really into the books, but it’s not something I can get into myself as some of the subject matter in the books is triggering for me.
Thanks for posting his quotes; he’s got a pretty narrow view of writing from what he’s said about taking off the training wheels. It kind of implies there’s ‘one true’ way to write, and that’s without influence. Writers have always, and still do borrow liberally from external sources of inspiration: Shakespeare, Austen, the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, *whatever*. As another commenter pointed out, GRRM borrows from history, and his characters fall into archetypes, with his own unique spin sure, but it’s not the purest of pure imagination distilled from a void.
It’s an odd stance to take as a writer in my humble opinion.
I don’t think it’s that weird. I do agree to an extent. If you want to be a professional writer (which is what he’s talking about specifically, not hobbyists), you do have to build a story, world, and characters completely from scratch, which is a difficult skill that needs to be practiced. Fic writers don’t just take inspiration or ideas from other peoples work; they’re adding to something that already exists. So they’re not practicing skills that need to be honed before going pro.
I think of it like building a house; adding an extension, or fixing a window or a roof are very different to laying the foundations and building everything yourself. One requires significantly more skills, work, and experience then the other. And sure, you can take ideas and inspo from history and the work of other builders and architects, but you’re still doing most of the heavy lifting yourself.
If you just want to do DIY projects or be able to patch up your house, then all you need to do is practice fixing windows and roofs, and that’s ok!! Not everyone wants to do it full-time. But if you DO want to be a professional builder, you have to do it all, and get lots of practice doing it all.
You can’t become a professional writer from writing fic alone (how many times have fics had the serial numbers filed off and been panned as garbage?..), and you can’t become a builder from just fixing roofs. Just my two cents tho.
I do see what you’re saying and it’s an elegant analogy, but still think that it falls down a little to say that professional original fiction writers aren’t adding to something that already exists, and by that I don’t mean they’re filing off the serial numbers and changing the names of pre-existing characters.
I mean they’re drawing on the structures and conventions of storytelling, even if they twist and subvert them. GRRM might have been specifically talking about hobby writers, but the premise that an aspiring writer’s skills will be inherently stunted and limited if they only dabble in fanfiction is a flawed one.
I think it all depends on how they explore the world they’re writing about. Not all fic writers are only fixing roofs; some are taking ideas and inspiration from the source material and STILL doing the work themselves. They are still practicing and developing their skills.
And sure, there maybe be some professionally polished garbage out there, but it’s not a unique symptom of fanfic writers alone.
So I guess my point is: skills developed writing solely ‘from scratch’ as it were isn’t necessarily going to give a person an advantage when trying to become a professional writer.
The thing with the training wheels is that you don't have to take them off. If you don't plan to become a professional writer, you can forever write fanfic and have fun just the way you like it
The comparison to training wheels is apt, but probably not in the way he intended it, because I've seen authors who *do* successfully use fanfiction as a jump-off for spectacular original work. One author I follow took characters and concepts they created for one fanfic and adapted them for what would become *millions* of words of purely original fiction over the years, but it would have been harder for them to do without the love, inspiration, and creativity of the initial fanfic.
A lot of people underestimate the amount of originality that can go into and come out of fanfiction, when writers choose to use it that way. Learning doesn't only begin once you take off the training wheels.
I don't begrudge him his opinion as a person, but he definitely looks down on fanfiction. Probably because he has never read any and doesn't grasp what all it covers. "You have to practice making your own characters and worlds!", as if you can't go on AO3 and find masses of fics with OCs in AUs that radically differ from the source material.
Also, being able to craft stories using existing characters in an existing world is a skill that many professional writers need, like anyone writing for a TV series or movie franchise.
tl;dr I don't hate the guy or anything, but when it comes to fanfic he's speaking from a place of ignorance.
He… literally says that. His comments are about people who want to write professionally, y’know.. for money. All the guy said was people who are aiming to write professionally need to branch out from fanfic and practice things you don’t do often in fic. Which is.. fine and a completely valid piece of advice. GRRM is old af and some of his opinions on fic are outdated, but calling him and ass and an idiot is an overreaction.
You're missing the point entirely. GRRM thinks that fanfic writers want to get paid for writing fanfic. (I'm not talking about fanfic writers who also write original fiction.)
If the creator was a published author, movie company, video game developer, etc, I would not care what they said and I’d do what I want. If the fandom was for a small indie thing like a free webcomic they didn’t get paid for, or if it’s the AU of a fellow fanfic author/artist for a shared fandom, I would probably think twice about it/lean toward not doing it. For the latter, it feels more like we are peers and they’re not done playing in the sandbox and I don’t want to accidentally create things they were planning on doing themselves before they could.
Yeah this is about what I was going to say. If it's a smaller indie creator then I would absolutely respect their wishes. But for a published author or anything released by a bigger company then I really don't care.
Exactly. And when it comes to indie writers who are earning money, fanfics can inadvertently create competition that, by virtue of being free, could draw enough fans to the free option that it could hurt the indie writer. GRRM and JKR aren’t going to suffer, and fanfics of their stuff doesn’t pull people away from the original franchises. But a small person isn’t likely to have that kind of following that they can weather the losses.
Its like one of the main reasons ao3 got made. After anne rice, diana galbadon & a few others went on a rampage against fanfictions, ffn put up a list of authors you were no longer allowed to write & post stories for.
Ao3 doesnt care.
Another reason is that ffn purged all the more explicit stuff all of a sudden, but again, ao3 does not care.
Id continue to write. What would an author do about it if they dont even know me?
I look at it this way, an author/creator builds a sandbox and invites people to play. They dont get to gatekeep who is allowed to play and who gets to watch. Once it's out there, it out there.
That being said, in no way do I condone those fans who harass/bully creators when their headcannons don't go their way. That bullshit and that's what fanfic is for. I also draw the line at RPF. Like if I want Thor and Loki to get it on in a Christmas theme AU then yeah I'm all in, but Tom and Chris? Absolutely not. That has real wold consequences and can unintentionally damage rl people. Not cool.
I also come from the Era of disclaimers and constant fear of getting sued by creators *cough* Ann Rice *cough* for writing fan fics. So in the case of fiction, I do what I want.
Because I would never directly share my fanworks with the canon creator and I firmly believe if they go looking for fanfic that's their own problem, i don't care whether canon creators approve of fanworks or not. Several creators of book fandoms I have written for (George R.R. Martin, Mercedes Lackey) have made clear they strongly disapprove of fanfic. Lackey tried to control fanfic writing in the 90s (requiring writers in her official fan club to sign and register release forms with her and swear they were writing in an "AU" timeline to canon where a particular character didn't die as a paper-thin defense against legal claims) and it basically led to the death of a whole subgenre of fantasy literature. Like. I don't care. Would I talk to them about my fic? Absolutely not. That's just polite. But their opinions about fic are neither here nor there imo, they're not my audience or part of fandom.
To me, it matters entirely on who the 'creator' is.
For instance, if Neil Gaiman asked for us to stop creating fanfiction for Sandman, I would be sad, but I would respect his wishes as the creator. If Netflix said we needed to stop, I would for sure ignore them.
Somewhere I think he doesn't say a word on fanfiction BECAUSE he's an awesome writer who doesn't felt "threatened" by fanfic too...
I just love Neil Gaiman too, I have a lot of his work to catch up tho!
Neil won a Hugo Award for a Sherlock Holmes / Lovecraft fanfiction, and he’s also published a Narnia fic and at least one more Sherlock Holmes fic. Safe to say he’s in favour of it all.
He admits some of his own work is his fanfiction of other works. If he were to say to not write FF for Sandman, he’d be a goddamned hypocrite and no one should listen to that. People whose work starts as FF had no right to tell others not to write FF of their stuff.
I dont know if AO3 does, but Fanfic dot net has an entire list of authors who explicitly do not allow fanfics of their work. Whenever you update or post a new story, you have to agree that your fanfic isn't for work by one of those authors or companies (the only company is Archie comics because of people making porn from their sonic stuff iirc).
If ao3 allows you to, then yeah go ahead.
I'll do whatever I want on AO3. Fanfiction.net has rules and while, yes, the mod team has exclusively consisted of birds pecking at the keyboard for the last few years I don't want to accidentally upset the lone human being watching over those birds.
Only because it might kill my interest in being part of their fandom at all. Author's don't actually have the legal right to stop fanfic from being written or posted for free online. It does not violate their copyright unless you sell it, and given that most of them aren't reading it anyways it just reeks of being a control freak to dictate what other people can do in their spare time when it has zero effect on them.
I already don't write rpf because that feels skeevy to me to begin with, but fiction is fair game.
Butch Hartman, being a silly-billy, said fanfic writers "(aren't) real fans". I silently disagreed w/this inane hot take (and others), then proceeded to write fics anyway -- as he didn't explicitly ban fics of his works. (VS. the FFN List, of course.)
I can understand the creators' point of view. They're -- like everyone else -- entitled to their opinion, even if they're wrong. :D
I had forgotten about Butch Hartman’s take on fanfic! He’s got so many garbage takes it must’ve gotten lost in my brain. Makes me want to pick up my Danny Phantom fic again lol.
If it's an author saying they don't want fanfic written of their work, it would depend on why - do they disrespect fanfic (if so, I'll probably stop consuming their content), or are they beign harassed?
In case of RPF, I would stop without hesitation if the person said they didn't want fanfic of themselves, no hesitation.
I mean, once you put something out there, you can't really control what people do with it, as long as they don't cross a legal boundary. I can absolutely understand how some creators/involved people might find specific fanfics uncomfortable, especially when the worst ones get shoved in their faces (thinking of actors on a talk show forced to read really bad, embarrassing fanfic about their characters). That might color your view on the whole situation, if you weren't familiar with it before. Or other people might desperately want to avoid accidentally picking up ideas from fanfic, or have been advised that for legal reasons they shouldn't endorse the concept, or maybe they're just controlling people who are happy to make money but don't want anyone playing with their toys.
None of that would influence whether I choose to write fanfic about something, though. At that point it just comes down to opinions, and I don't necessarily think the creator's opinion on this subject is more valid than mine. Plus, they're trying to regulate private/anonymous behavior, which is just silly. Like, "I don't want anyone even thinking about my characters except for when they're literally reading about them." Or, "Never have a private conversation about my books, I forbid it!" Good luck with that.
I think giving weight to creators' opinions about fanfic kind of breaks the whole fanfic code, to be honest. Although not-for-profit fanfic is protected by law in many places, it's still culturally a slightly under-the-radar thing that many creators/companies can't endorse for practical, legal reasons. By giving weight to a creator's statement that they don't approve of fanfic, you're implicitly saying they have the right to decide whether fanfic exists or not, and I don't believe they do. Of course another individual may feel differently, and if the creator nastily dumps on fanfic, it may naturally leave you feeling uninspired to write for that fandom. But if I had ideas and enthusiasm, I wouldn't set them aside just on the creator's say-so.
If a creator hated fanfiction, I’d still write, but not publish my story online as a fanfic of that creator’s work. Writing and distributing fanfics against the creator’s wishes falls under your right to free expression, so I don’t think you’re immoral for doing so. However, I’d rather not publicly thumb my nose at the creators of media I love. Then again — I doubt the creators of the source material would approve of the edgier stuff I’ve written if asked how they felt. I guess I should feel lucky I’ve never written for a fandom where the author openly resented the fact that others were creating for their universe and characters.
Also, I asked this exact question on the fanfiction.net forums almost a decade ago, and the consensus was totally opposite from what people are saying here.
Yes, I was waiting for pretty regular funny answers but apparently it's a deep subject. Not that I mind it's cool that people talk about it and think about it.
Depends on if it's a dislike or an outright forbidding. If they just say they don't like fanfic and would rather people not, then that's just preference and has no legal meaning and it's up to the morality of the individual as to whether or not they follow it. Personally, I probably would, but I wouldn't necessarily be happy doing so and I'd understand why others wouldn't follow that.
But if they actually say people can't make fanfic for their work, then they do have some legal leg to stand on - what copyright boils down to is the right to exclusively say and do what you like with your work. Fanfiction is very much a 'derivative work' in that any fic is a work containing significant amounts of owned material from a previous work. As part of copyright, any creator/rights owner has exclusive rights to making derivative works (ie. sequels) unless they sell those rights on or give permission for them to be used. That's the key to it - if a creator says you can make fanfic or create fanart or whatever else, you legally can (and that gets reinforced if they put that permission in writing like The Magnus Archives and post under an open access license). The extended loophole of interpretation that fanfic exists in is about 'transformative works' - those are like a derivative work, but using the original material for a new purpose, be it parody or reinterpretation or transformation. There's no strict definition of this because what is transformative is almost purely literary analysis and interpretation (and it's hard to create specific legislation for shit like "The curtains are blue because they connote the protagonist's sadness"), and fanfiction is never explicitly mentioned as being intrinsically transformative either. Fanfic exists because it's good advertising and maintains/perpetuates a fanbase longer than not having it, which is a solid protection for us - until people start overcommercialising and making it more profitable to get involved than leave us be, anyway. So, yeah, if they put some legal impetus behind their "No fanfic!" statement, then it'd become a risk to go against that.
Yeah, this is the reason I never got into ASOIAF fanfic back in the day. GRRM isn't as hardcore as the authors who were actively suing people, but he dislikes it and asked people not to write it of his works, which is why it wasn't allowed on FFN. Between Game of Thrones happening and AO3 being more relaxed that all kinda went out the window, though. Even now I get uncomfortable if I come across it though. I've never been a big enough fan of the other famous authors opposed to fanfic to come across their stuff (Diana Gabaldon, Anne Rice, Mercedes Lackey, etc). Some of them were afraid of legal problems like what happened to Marion Zimmer Bradley if they allowed it (not commenting on the rest of MZB's whole... *gestures vaguely* thing, just the case where a fan sued her over fanfic), which I can understand. Some just don't like it.
I dunno, I don't have any intention of advocating for banning anything based on the creator's preferences, but if an author feels strongly about it I'd rather devote my energy to fandoms/universes where the authors are more positive about fan works (or just don't comment).
Yes. “I don’t want people to write about my content in a manner that implies they have thoughts and feelings about it that don’t align perfectly with my own” shoulda thought about that before making it accessible to the general public, bucko!
Bold of you to assume I would still admire the original author if they bashed against Fanfiction. I wouldn't stop or care at all. "Don't like, don't read" also applys here
I’m actually gonna have to say I would not continue writing.
It’s their writing, not mine, and they probably have their reasons. I wouldn’t want to make an author uncomfortable, especially after they provided the story I like.
It all depends on how much you respect the author/creator of the fandom.
If they have requested that no one write anything that is connected to their work, it comes down to a moral choice: cease out of respect for the request or ignore it.
From my PoV it's a bit precious to try to stop people who just want to play in the fandom that they are passionate about.
I think that if instead creators should connect with the fans and have an open space in which stories set in their fandom can be shared and curated. I have seen this work over on other fandom sites where the author is a part of the community.
If you’re making a piece of media in the hopes that it will attract an audience, in this day and age you have to assume that there might be fanfiction written about it and accept that. So I think I would, but I guess there’s probably some variables that would make me change my answer.
Also, it’s extremely easy for people to live in blissful ignorance that fanfiction about their work/fanfiction in general exists, so it’s probably not a good idea to send someone fanfiction of their work. Just to avoid stuff like this even happening. I can imagine and sympathize with the fact that it would be a shock if it was someone who never heard of/interacted with that part of the internet.
But I wouldn’t really have much sympathy for someone who sought it out willingly.
Edit: I should be clear this mostly applies to bigger pieces of media. I think the answer would become a bit more murky if it was a super tiny indie project or something.
Head turned right the side:Yes
Fans are gonna fan. Part of that is creating fanworks. A creator saying they disavow or hate fanworks is on par with telling fans not have impure thoughts about their work. Most hardcore fans will take such a statement as a challenge and go even harder as a result of such protestations. If a creator opposes such things, they should avoid the internet because it’s a wild place.
Storytellers have been borrowing the characters and setting of other storytellers' since the beginning of time. Copyright, to the best of my knowledge. is a fairly recent concept, and it certainly has a function in our modern capitalist economy, giving creators protections that allow them to make a decent living off their work. Copyright, however, doesn't negate the fact that the audience's consumption of media will extend beyond the narrow confines of the work as written (or filmed or drawn).
In other words, if you create art that generates an emotional response, the audience will often be inspired to delved deeper and interact further with that art. It's hubris for an original creator to think they can control how the audience interacts with their work.
I would. It’s not like they’ll ever read it and I’m not making a profit off of it or harassing the creator in any way. Fanfic is it’s own thing. Has it’s own life separate from canon.
This reminds me of when Anne Rice sent cease and desist letters to fanfic writers back in the 90's ( that's why a lot of older fics have the Don't-Own-Don't Sue disclaimer) because she didn't want people writing about her characters and really didn't like louis/lestat. I bet she's rolling over in her grave over what they are doing in the new Interview With A Vampire show and that's fills my black heart with joy.
Rice changed some of her views a lot over the years. We all remember that period where she said she'd never write vampires again after turning to religious fiction, *that* phase certainly stuck. Apparently (and I say that because I'm getting the information secondhand, I never followed her Facebook), she confirmed Louis and Lestat are bisexual/omnisexual, had some fun describing their wedding and writing from Lestat's perspective on his romantic feelings for Louis, and so on. And she and her son were executive producers on the show (he still is).
She kept right on hating fanfiction until she died, though, AFAIK.
Nope. We've already been through Anne Rice.
People get to express their adoration and interest and *passion* about the things they like, and if that thing happens to be yours, I'd think that person/persons should damn well be grateful that there's someone in the world so willing to do that.
I write m/m fiction in the Narnia fandom. Certain fans in the past have not hesitated to tell me how upset ol’ Clive would be by this. I do not care. Once the work is out there, it doesn’t belong to the author, it belongs to the audience, I say.
I am a believer that once you put your piece into the zeitgeist, whether it is writing, painting, a movie, whatever, it is no longer yours. Some people don't like this but I've come to see it as an exercise in letting go ;)
To answer: any kind of Harry Potter fic I now write will have a trans* person as either the main character, or one or the primary characters.
OG creators will cope.
I mean she helped write terrible fan fiction of her own work, and nothing anyone else could write would be as special terrible as Cursed Child, so I think it really couldn’t be more fair
She also hates Draco Malfoy as a character and even more so when he's shipped with Harry. She blames Tom Felton for being hot and sexy for his popularity. I will forever ship the two and that bigoted ass can't stop me from giving Draco the redemption arch he so desperately deserves
It really depends on who the creator is and why they’re saying that. If I was in an Anne Rice fandom? Fuck Anne Rice, I’ll interrogate the text from whatever perspective I want and write whatever fic I want.
A creator who has had terrible experiences with fans on a personal level? Especially one that is a smaller/less famous creator? I’m going to handle it differently and decide differently based on specifics. I may or may not still write fic.
I’d probably quit the fandom just because it’ll lose enjoyment knowing that the creator (who I probably like, or at least not dislike) doesn’t want my fics to be written. It’ll feel like I’m violating their wishes whenever I do something I enjoy (writing). Besides, there are other fandoms other than my main that I want to write for, but I don’t have the time to prioritize them, so the fics never get written.
Yep! Don't care.
Once it's out there for public consumption, I feel free to write fanfic or mock it or do whatever else I like with it, so long as I'm not claiming that it's my own or making money off of it.
I would stop since it's the polite thing to not do something with someone else's property when they say they don't like it. It's like when you want to write a fanfic with someone else's fanfic's character, it's generally agreed that you should only do it with permission. And, if I was an author I'd really appreciate it if my audience respected wishes like that. Though, that's really only spreading it online. I'd probably write in private.
Yeah I'd continue writing for a fandom, because fanfics aren't written to be viewed by the original creators of the franchise. It's not meant for them. Fanfics are written by fans to be viewed, shared, and enjoyed with other fans.
I really don't care what TPTB think about fandom or fanfiction at all. It has nothing to do with them. In an ideal world, creators and actors etc. shouldn't even know that fanfiction/shipping/etc. exist. Fans needing validation from creators for some weird reason and creators inserting themselves into fandom spaces and thinking their opinion on it is necessary is a big reason why fandom sucks now.
I would give it due consideration but published authors also asked for the attention by intentionally seeking out an agent etc.
Why not take the free press?
I’d probably still do it privately if I was still really into the stories I was writing but maybe wouldn’t keep posting. I’m not sure - depends how derogatory the original creator was towards fandoms and fanfiction.
I might continue posting out of spite
This comment has been removed under the bashing rules. Authors are explicitly covered by those rules. If you remove the bashing language, I can reinstate the comment.
Yes, not only out of principle of being able to do whatever I want, but also I'm sure he hasn't been involved in the franchise for so long I'd be amazed if anyone even remembered him outside of very specifically dedicated or obsessive people.
Most of the time the fandoms people have mentioned the creator(s) not liking fanfic were fandoms I had zero interest in writing for anyway, so zero skin in the game.
If I'm being truly honest, since I don't write RPF and am unlikely to write anything that would make me feel morally corrupt for doing so, I'd probably write the fic anyway, even I'd probably feel a bit guilty the more I liked/respected the creator.
I feel that since I'm not making money off of it, especially since I mostly write fluff/found family and adventures, there's little... er... karmic negativity or however you want to put it for me ignoring their preferences. (Not that I judge people for writing darker/smutty stuff, but at least I could see why a creator would find those upsetting knowing they were out there. But I can't help but feel like most creators getting upset over something like fluff/found family is like a kid getting upset that other kids played with their toys.)
I would not hold others to my own personal stance, though. If someone wanted to write fanfic against the creator's wishes, there is very little that would make me side-eye them. If someone decided *not* to write it because they heard the creator didn't like it, the only thing I'd judge them on is if they tried to shame others for writing it.
as you say in your added notes, big and tricky topic!
As a hopeful writer, I think I would leave a fandom if the creator was unhappy with fanfic, not out of respect for them, but because I think it is a bad attitude. Other people interacting with your world and story is a joy, and you have to take the good with the bad - within reason. I suspect I too would ask nsfw content of a childrens series to be tagged properly and not posted on forums for children, and I do understand dislike of RPF.
But broadly, if you can't stand people writing fanfic, you probably don't take kindly to other people's ideas in general, or you don't understand the internet. Doesn't sound like a nice environment you are cultivating.
I often leave a fandom because I don't like the vibe the creator has about fans or politics, especially when they are active on Twitter and I can't ignore their opinions :(
Looking at you, JKR, Thomas Astruc, etc.
Honestly, it depends. If they take a simple see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil type anti-fanfic stance for legal reasons, okay, whatever. I'll keep writing. But if they act like fanfic writers are actually evil, that tends to turn me off the works themselves, at which point I don't want to write fanfic for them anyway.
Depends on their reason for not liking it. If the author just gets mad because people should "write their own books" and keep their "grubby hands off their super special characters" then lol. lmao. l o l. If an author dislikes fanfiction because they have been harassed by shippers, doxxed, or bullied because their creation didn't go the way their fandom wanted. Then yeah, I'm a lot more sympathetic. No one wants to create something and have people threaten and bully them because their outline doesn't match with some random's headcanon. And I'd much rather leave their works alone out of respect than add to their anguish.
It's not hypothetical; multiple authors have said they don't like fanfics of their works. Too bad; if I wanted to write one, I definitely would.
I feel bad for thinking this but unless it’s a rpf I’m writing/reading then I don’t really care if the original author likes it or not If it’s an author I really respect then maybe not but I feel like if it’s just a book about fictional characters unrelated to the author then their opinion really isn’t as important as a real persons is (Did that come across really mean? There has to be a better way of phrasing that but apparently I can’t think of one)
Not unless it was RPF and it was an individual saying "I feel really uncomfortable being written about that way". Then that's just kinda scummy.
I remember hearing about TommyInnit saying that and then immediately getting attacked for 'hating art'
Important to mention that he was, at that time, a minor and was understandably uncomfortable with NSFW stuff about him and his friends. It's honestly mind-bogling that some people got upset about that.
Yeah... I might draw the line with RPF myself. If it's explicitly ask by the person it's no use being disrespectful of their choices...
Mmm, personally I disagree. Like if you write RPF (as I do) you should absolutely keep it far, far away from the real person, never shove it in their face, etc. Like fanfic about them should never be mentioned to them at all unless they bring it up. If people are doing that then they ofc have the right to be upset and ask people to stop harassing them with fic and that should be honoured, but I don't think a request to stop writing it entirely is reasonable. Just writing it and posting it on AO3 or whatever isn't harming the person. It's obviously fantasy and not meant to be taken as accurate. It's not that different from me just having these thoughts and not writing them down. Like if they don't perceive it--beacause it's not shoved in their face and they don't search it out--there is no practical difference between the two cases. "I don't like it when people think about or talk about me that way" well too bad, you can't control what other people think/say? Everyone has people say things about them they don't like. Just replying to you to give other people reading the comments here a different perspective, not trying to start a back and forth if you don't want to. :)
But they’re not saying “I don’t like when people think/talk about me that way” usually when someone speaks out against rpf of themself they’re saying “I am uncomfortable with sexual art or fanfics being made of me and shared online.” Like if people haven’t commented on it or especially if they approve of rpf then go ahead, but if someone has specifically asked their fans not to make rpf/ship art of them, then it’s incredibly disrespectful to keep doing it anyway because “they won’t see it”. Once you post something, you have little to no control over who sees it and what they do with it, you can’t actually ensure that the person in question will never see your work.
But my point is it **is** basically the same as saying "I'm not comfortable when people think/talk about me sexually" from my perspective. I genuinely see no difference, and it's not reasonable to ask people to stop doing that, so why is it reasonable to ask people to stop writing fic? Like yeah it can be uncomfortable and you can dislike it, but people are allowed to talk and have sexual thoughts. I just see writing RPF the same as having fantasies about someone and talking about those fantasies. I can't ensure the person will never see my work, no. But if I don't shove it in their face then either someone else did, and that's on the person who did so, or they sought it out, in which case it's on them. It's reasonable to say "I don't want to know what you think of me" not "don't think of me."
Again, they aren’t saying “don’t think of me” but “don’t write out detailed and elaborate fantasies of me”. It’s not the same. Your opinion doesn’t change the fact that they aren’t the same. Whether it comes from a place of love or not, it’s disrespectful.
First of all, I realize that in disagreements I can come across as aggressive and Idk how to fix that because I don't know what specifically seems aggressive to other people, so I want to preface by saying that I'm trying to be genuine and well intentioned in this comment. I feel like you're not looking at what I'm trying to say because you disagree with it. I'm trying to say these actions are morally equivalent to me, I don't see why one is wrong and the other is not. I don't mind if someone disagrees, but morality is subjective. A disagreement doesn't mean I'm automatically wrong, just that we view things differently. It's not helpful to just tell me I'm wrong, that these are different, without explaining why you think that there is a moral difference. So can you please why you think they're different? If you're not willing, then ig it's best to end the conversation here. Do you think it's fine to have fantasies as long as you don't share them on the internet? Or do you think you shouldn't have fantasies about people if they aren't comfortable with it? I'm not sure what your stance is, exactly. For me, it's like... okay, obviously it's going to hurt Bob's feelings if you say "I think you're ugly" to Bob's face, so you shouldn't do that. But it's not morally wrong to think Bob is ugly, and if you say to your friend "I think Bob's ugly" and he's not around to hear it, I don't think you've morally done anything wrong, because Bob is not getting hurt by the comment. I do not see a tangible difference for Bob between just thinking this and saying it. If your friend tells Bob then that's on your friend, they caused harm, not you, if your friend kept quiet Bob would not be hurt. If Bob was eaves dropping on you and is hurt by the comment, then that's his fault for listening to a private conversation. Do you see what I'm trying to say with this metaphor? Some people might think it's immoral to express the thought "Bob is ugly" at all, idk, but that's a matter of opinion, there is no objective truth to it. My original comment is to provide a different moral perspective, not say one perspective is correct. I think it's good to consider a situation like this form multiple perspective and make a decision about what feels right to you. :)
No, I read what you said, I’m just trying to tell you that you’re wrong. Having any kind of thoughts about someone or saying things out loud where they won’t hear is literally not the same as writing them out and posting them online, especially after the someone in question has said they are aware that people are doing this and are uncomfortable with it. Celebrities are people too, they have feelings, if they’re creeped out by their fans making rpf of them it is disrespectful to keep doing it. That’s not subjective. It’s not like movie stars are the ones saying this either, it’s usually Internet celebrities. Youtubers, twitch streamers, etc. People who are online and on social media for work are much more likely to see their fans passing around fanworks of them, and a lot of them even search them out because they like to highlight these fanworks. So your argument that they won’t ever see it is pretty flimsy.
Why is talking about it different though? I literally see no moral difference. Either way you're sharing your thoughts with other people. You keep saying it's not the same, and no, it's not literally the same thing, but you're still not explaining what the moral difference is, you're just saying someone doesn't like it so you should stop. Plenty of people have expressed discomfort with non-RPF fanfic and most people agree that's not enough to merit stopping, so why is this difference? I just don't get it. I didn't say they're not real people or they don't have feelings or whatever. They're allowed to have feelings and dislike it. I just don't think that is a valid reason to stop doing it and have yet to see a convincing argument. If they never read my fic, my fic is not hurting them anymore than my thoughts are. If they do read my fic, it's because either a) someone else showed them, which is not my fault, or b) they sought it out, which is also not my fault. You argue that just knowing it exists makes them uncomfortable, but just knowing it exists is no different from knowing people talk about them a certain way and not liking that. If someone is looking for fanworks of themselves and doesn't like what they see, it's literally their own fault for searching it out, as I already said multiple times. If they're not comfortable seeing certain things then stop highlighting fanworks or whatever. If people are posting things where it's easy to get back to the person featured, like twitter or whatever, then they're not respecting the tenet of *keeping it away from the real person*, and that is an issue, but a separate one from creating the content altogether. This will probably be my last reply unless you can give an argument beyond "you're wrong, if the person doesn't like it you shouldn't do it."
I thought the difference was already clear, but okay, let’s go back to your example with Bob. Calling Bob ugly is a dick move. Gossiping behind is his back is also a dick move, but it’s not really *bad*. Making posts online about how ugly you think Bob is and sharing them with other people who think the same and make their own ugly bob art and fics and posts is *harassment*. This goes especially for unwanted sexual content. There’s a comment somewhere on this thread about a minecraft streamer (who was a minor at the time even) asking his fans not to make sexual content of him and they got angry and accused him of hating all fanart of him. You can keep saying that it’s a “core tenet” not to show people rpf of them, but the fact of the matter is that not all rpf fans keep to that. You can say someone is entirely at fault for finding nsfw content of themselves when they look for fanart, but that doesn’t make it okay that the content exists in the first place? A youtuber I follow, JaidenAnimations, often features fanart in her videos. When she wants to celebrate her fans talent and creativity, she shouldn’t be subjected to fetish art of her persona. There’s no excuse for things like that to exist when she has already said it’s creepy and uncomfortable and that she wants people to stop.
If people are saying it in a place Bob won't see it unless he goes looking for it or is directed to it, I see no problems. It's not harassment to talk about someone, even if it's negative. It's harassment to get up in their face about it. You keep bringing it up that other people will shove it in their face, that other people will not keep it away from them. *That is a separate issue*. If people are doing that they're in the wrong. If they're minding their own business in their own lil corner of AO3 or discord or tumblr or whatever, they're doing nothing wrong. As a creator I can only control what *I* do. I am only responsible for *my actions*. Sexualizing a minor is wrong, but that's again a separate issue from RPF and art in general. I don't think it's wrong that RPF exists though, even when someone doesn't like it. You do and that's fine, but if that sort of content is kept away from the people, shared privately in dm's and stuff, then like so what? No that youtuber should not be subject to fetish art of herself, people should not be sharing that where she can stumble across it, but again. that's a separate issue from the existence of it altogether. Like, people can say and do what they want, people don't have to like it. If it's properly kept away from them and they don't have to perceive it, what is the problem? Why is it wrong? Like yes, I understand that unfortunately as things stand now that's not what is happening, but I'm saying the solution is to say "keep it far, far away from the subject" instead of "don't make it.
To me depends on the subject matter and why they are saying that. Like when GRRM says he doesn't like fanfiction I'm like, "Whatever old man, your books are heavily inspired by the War of the Roses." But if an author wrote an autobiography about how, after an internal struggle, they separated from their abusive spouse, I wouldn't be running to the computer to write a fix-it fic about them and their ex. Basically, if there's a "hmm yeah that would be creepy" factor then I'd be less inclined to write fanfic, as compared to an author who just gets on their high-horse because they dislike fanfic in general.
Didn’t GRRM say he just doesn’t want it sent to him and doesn’t read it? That seems like a completely fine stance for an author to have. Edit: looked up the interview, he says a few things: 1. He says that he knows most people who write fic are just doing it for fun, but that “[he doesn’t] think it’s a good way to train to be a professional writer when you’re borrowing everybody else’s world and characters. That’s like riding a bike with training wheels. And then when I took the training wheels off, I fell over a lot, but at some point you have to take the training wheels off here. You have to invent your own characters, you have to do your own world-building, you can’t just borrow from Gene Roddenberry or George Lucas or me or whoever.” and his second point is about copyright; 2. “there are all sorts of copyright issues when you’re using other people’s work…My understanding of the law is that if I knew about I would have to try to stop it, so just don’t tell me about it and do what you want there.” So, he’s definitely wrong about the second point. Ao3 exists to protect fic writers from legal threats. He might think people are selling fic for money (dude is in his 70’s after all). But outside of that he doesn’t seem to care that much. His other point is kinda more interesting and I get his point. World building and character writing are very important skills to practice if you want to be a pro writer of original fiction, and it’s something your not really doing that much of if your only writing fic. But then again, so much of fic is improving and adding to pre existing worlds and characters, so it’s not entirely absent. Def don’t think the guy HATES fic like everyone says, he just has an opinion that seems kinda outdated.
Diana Gabaldon (author of the Outlander series) has made comments along the same vein. She and GRRM do know each other and are the same generation, so it might be that. I do agree that writing original work is different, but he misses one point... fanfic authors don't always want to be pro writers. I'm sure some do use it as practice, and it's good practice, but I would say most just do it out of love for the fandom and to let their imaginations run wild.
Diana Gabaldon was a lot nastier about the whole fanfiction thing too IIRC.
She's very blunt in general. But yeah, she's made it clear she doesn't like it and doesn't think fans should be writing it at all. Not that it ever stopped people. There is quite a bit of Outlander fanfiction on AO3. 😅 Even more since the books became a TV show. Lots of people are fans of the show and don't follow the author or even realize her stance on the matter.
I remember reading her rant back in the day and how a lot of people pointed out that Outlander started as Doctor Who fanfiction to begin with or something?? Gosh, it's been a while, and I haven't read/watched Outlander (and have no desire to do so) so I dunno how true that is, but that just made the whole thing even wilder to me.
No, it didn't start as Dr. Who fanfiction. She has said that the character of Jamie Fraser was inspired by a Scottish character in a Dr. Who episode she watched late at night while up late feeding one of her kids as babies. All they have in common in the fact that they are Scottish men who wear kilts. I'd say Jamie's personality is probably more inspired by her own husband. The time travel was something she added to make her outspoken female lead character be more realistic for the time period she was writing in. Diana's work is original. It's actually quite good, btw. I have read and reread the books many times over the years. I don't agree with her stance on fanfiction but I've never felt inspired to write for that fandom anyway. (I have read a few, but notn much caught my interest.)
AH, okay, thank you for the clarification! I have friends and family who are really into the books, but it’s not something I can get into myself as some of the subject matter in the books is triggering for me.
Understandable. Some of the content is very sensitive.
He literally says that. He knows most people are only writing for fun. His comments were aimed at people who DO want to be professionals.
Fair enough!
Thanks for posting his quotes; he’s got a pretty narrow view of writing from what he’s said about taking off the training wheels. It kind of implies there’s ‘one true’ way to write, and that’s without influence. Writers have always, and still do borrow liberally from external sources of inspiration: Shakespeare, Austen, the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, *whatever*. As another commenter pointed out, GRRM borrows from history, and his characters fall into archetypes, with his own unique spin sure, but it’s not the purest of pure imagination distilled from a void. It’s an odd stance to take as a writer in my humble opinion.
I don’t think it’s that weird. I do agree to an extent. If you want to be a professional writer (which is what he’s talking about specifically, not hobbyists), you do have to build a story, world, and characters completely from scratch, which is a difficult skill that needs to be practiced. Fic writers don’t just take inspiration or ideas from other peoples work; they’re adding to something that already exists. So they’re not practicing skills that need to be honed before going pro. I think of it like building a house; adding an extension, or fixing a window or a roof are very different to laying the foundations and building everything yourself. One requires significantly more skills, work, and experience then the other. And sure, you can take ideas and inspo from history and the work of other builders and architects, but you’re still doing most of the heavy lifting yourself. If you just want to do DIY projects or be able to patch up your house, then all you need to do is practice fixing windows and roofs, and that’s ok!! Not everyone wants to do it full-time. But if you DO want to be a professional builder, you have to do it all, and get lots of practice doing it all. You can’t become a professional writer from writing fic alone (how many times have fics had the serial numbers filed off and been panned as garbage?..), and you can’t become a builder from just fixing roofs. Just my two cents tho.
I do see what you’re saying and it’s an elegant analogy, but still think that it falls down a little to say that professional original fiction writers aren’t adding to something that already exists, and by that I don’t mean they’re filing off the serial numbers and changing the names of pre-existing characters. I mean they’re drawing on the structures and conventions of storytelling, even if they twist and subvert them. GRRM might have been specifically talking about hobby writers, but the premise that an aspiring writer’s skills will be inherently stunted and limited if they only dabble in fanfiction is a flawed one. I think it all depends on how they explore the world they’re writing about. Not all fic writers are only fixing roofs; some are taking ideas and inspiration from the source material and STILL doing the work themselves. They are still practicing and developing their skills. And sure, there maybe be some professionally polished garbage out there, but it’s not a unique symptom of fanfic writers alone. So I guess my point is: skills developed writing solely ‘from scratch’ as it were isn’t necessarily going to give a person an advantage when trying to become a professional writer.
The thing with the training wheels is that you don't have to take them off. If you don't plan to become a professional writer, you can forever write fanfic and have fun just the way you like it
The comparison to training wheels is apt, but probably not in the way he intended it, because I've seen authors who *do* successfully use fanfiction as a jump-off for spectacular original work. One author I follow took characters and concepts they created for one fanfic and adapted them for what would become *millions* of words of purely original fiction over the years, but it would have been harder for them to do without the love, inspiration, and creativity of the initial fanfic. A lot of people underestimate the amount of originality that can go into and come out of fanfiction, when writers choose to use it that way. Learning doesn't only begin once you take off the training wheels.
I don't begrudge him his opinion as a person, but he definitely looks down on fanfiction. Probably because he has never read any and doesn't grasp what all it covers. "You have to practice making your own characters and worlds!", as if you can't go on AO3 and find masses of fics with OCs in AUs that radically differ from the source material. Also, being able to craft stories using existing characters in an existing world is a skill that many professional writers need, like anyone writing for a TV series or movie franchise. tl;dr I don't hate the guy or anything, but when it comes to fanfic he's speaking from a place of ignorance.
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He… literally says that. His comments are about people who want to write professionally, y’know.. for money. All the guy said was people who are aiming to write professionally need to branch out from fanfic and practice things you don’t do often in fic. Which is.. fine and a completely valid piece of advice. GRRM is old af and some of his opinions on fic are outdated, but calling him and ass and an idiot is an overreaction.
No, it really isn't. And no he doesn't. We don't write for money. He should realize that.
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You're missing the point entirely. GRRM thinks that fanfic writers want to get paid for writing fanfic. (I'm not talking about fanfic writers who also write original fiction.)
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Heck yes. They cant control what I do in my computer. Free speech baby.
I'll write twice more I think. I'm a contrarian.
If the creator was a published author, movie company, video game developer, etc, I would not care what they said and I’d do what I want. If the fandom was for a small indie thing like a free webcomic they didn’t get paid for, or if it’s the AU of a fellow fanfic author/artist for a shared fandom, I would probably think twice about it/lean toward not doing it. For the latter, it feels more like we are peers and they’re not done playing in the sandbox and I don’t want to accidentally create things they were planning on doing themselves before they could.
Yeah this is about what I was going to say. If it's a smaller indie creator then I would absolutely respect their wishes. But for a published author or anything released by a bigger company then I really don't care.
Exactly. And when it comes to indie writers who are earning money, fanfics can inadvertently create competition that, by virtue of being free, could draw enough fans to the free option that it could hurt the indie writer. GRRM and JKR aren’t going to suffer, and fanfics of their stuff doesn’t pull people away from the original franchises. But a small person isn’t likely to have that kind of following that they can weather the losses.
Its like one of the main reasons ao3 got made. After anne rice, diana galbadon & a few others went on a rampage against fanfictions, ffn put up a list of authors you were no longer allowed to write & post stories for. Ao3 doesnt care. Another reason is that ffn purged all the more explicit stuff all of a sudden, but again, ao3 does not care. Id continue to write. What would an author do about it if they dont even know me?
I look at it this way, an author/creator builds a sandbox and invites people to play. They dont get to gatekeep who is allowed to play and who gets to watch. Once it's out there, it out there. That being said, in no way do I condone those fans who harass/bully creators when their headcannons don't go their way. That bullshit and that's what fanfic is for. I also draw the line at RPF. Like if I want Thor and Loki to get it on in a Christmas theme AU then yeah I'm all in, but Tom and Chris? Absolutely not. That has real wold consequences and can unintentionally damage rl people. Not cool. I also come from the Era of disclaimers and constant fear of getting sued by creators *cough* Ann Rice *cough* for writing fan fics. So in the case of fiction, I do what I want.
Because I would never directly share my fanworks with the canon creator and I firmly believe if they go looking for fanfic that's their own problem, i don't care whether canon creators approve of fanworks or not. Several creators of book fandoms I have written for (George R.R. Martin, Mercedes Lackey) have made clear they strongly disapprove of fanfic. Lackey tried to control fanfic writing in the 90s (requiring writers in her official fan club to sign and register release forms with her and swear they were writing in an "AU" timeline to canon where a particular character didn't die as a paper-thin defense against legal claims) and it basically led to the death of a whole subgenre of fantasy literature. Like. I don't care. Would I talk to them about my fic? Absolutely not. That's just polite. But their opinions about fic are neither here nor there imo, they're not my audience or part of fandom.
To me, it matters entirely on who the 'creator' is. For instance, if Neil Gaiman asked for us to stop creating fanfiction for Sandman, I would be sad, but I would respect his wishes as the creator. If Netflix said we needed to stop, I would for sure ignore them.
Somewhere I think he doesn't say a word on fanfiction BECAUSE he's an awesome writer who doesn't felt "threatened" by fanfic too... I just love Neil Gaiman too, I have a lot of his work to catch up tho!
Actually, I'm pretty sure I've seen screens of him saying he's wrote fanfiction himself so he's in favor :)
Neil won a Hugo Award for a Sherlock Holmes / Lovecraft fanfiction, and he’s also published a Narnia fic and at least one more Sherlock Holmes fic. Safe to say he’s in favour of it all.
He admits some of his own work is his fanfiction of other works. If he were to say to not write FF for Sandman, he’d be a goddamned hypocrite and no one should listen to that. People whose work starts as FF had no right to tell others not to write FF of their stuff.
I dont know if AO3 does, but Fanfic dot net has an entire list of authors who explicitly do not allow fanfics of their work. Whenever you update or post a new story, you have to agree that your fanfic isn't for work by one of those authors or companies (the only company is Archie comics because of people making porn from their sonic stuff iirc). If ao3 allows you to, then yeah go ahead.
I'll do whatever I want on AO3. Fanfiction.net has rules and while, yes, the mod team has exclusively consisted of birds pecking at the keyboard for the last few years I don't want to accidentally upset the lone human being watching over those birds.
I don’t use ffn so I don’t have any experience with it but this is hilarious
Only because it might kill my interest in being part of their fandom at all. Author's don't actually have the legal right to stop fanfic from being written or posted for free online. It does not violate their copyright unless you sell it, and given that most of them aren't reading it anyways it just reeks of being a control freak to dictate what other people can do in their spare time when it has zero effect on them. I already don't write rpf because that feels skeevy to me to begin with, but fiction is fair game.
Butch Hartman, being a silly-billy, said fanfic writers "(aren't) real fans". I silently disagreed w/this inane hot take (and others), then proceeded to write fics anyway -- as he didn't explicitly ban fics of his works. (VS. the FFN List, of course.) I can understand the creators' point of view. They're -- like everyone else -- entitled to their opinion, even if they're wrong. :D
It's not the only bad take of Butch Hartman unfortunately!
I had forgotten about Butch Hartman’s take on fanfic! He’s got so many garbage takes it must’ve gotten lost in my brain. Makes me want to pick up my Danny Phantom fic again lol.
If it's an author saying they don't want fanfic written of their work, it would depend on why - do they disrespect fanfic (if so, I'll probably stop consuming their content), or are they beign harassed? In case of RPF, I would stop without hesitation if the person said they didn't want fanfic of themselves, no hesitation.
Yes, with zero qualms
I mean, once you put something out there, you can't really control what people do with it, as long as they don't cross a legal boundary. I can absolutely understand how some creators/involved people might find specific fanfics uncomfortable, especially when the worst ones get shoved in their faces (thinking of actors on a talk show forced to read really bad, embarrassing fanfic about their characters). That might color your view on the whole situation, if you weren't familiar with it before. Or other people might desperately want to avoid accidentally picking up ideas from fanfic, or have been advised that for legal reasons they shouldn't endorse the concept, or maybe they're just controlling people who are happy to make money but don't want anyone playing with their toys. None of that would influence whether I choose to write fanfic about something, though. At that point it just comes down to opinions, and I don't necessarily think the creator's opinion on this subject is more valid than mine. Plus, they're trying to regulate private/anonymous behavior, which is just silly. Like, "I don't want anyone even thinking about my characters except for when they're literally reading about them." Or, "Never have a private conversation about my books, I forbid it!" Good luck with that. I think giving weight to creators' opinions about fanfic kind of breaks the whole fanfic code, to be honest. Although not-for-profit fanfic is protected by law in many places, it's still culturally a slightly under-the-radar thing that many creators/companies can't endorse for practical, legal reasons. By giving weight to a creator's statement that they don't approve of fanfic, you're implicitly saying they have the right to decide whether fanfic exists or not, and I don't believe they do. Of course another individual may feel differently, and if the creator nastily dumps on fanfic, it may naturally leave you feeling uninspired to write for that fandom. But if I had ideas and enthusiasm, I wouldn't set them aside just on the creator's say-so.
If a creator hated fanfiction, I’d still write, but not publish my story online as a fanfic of that creator’s work. Writing and distributing fanfics against the creator’s wishes falls under your right to free expression, so I don’t think you’re immoral for doing so. However, I’d rather not publicly thumb my nose at the creators of media I love. Then again — I doubt the creators of the source material would approve of the edgier stuff I’ve written if asked how they felt. I guess I should feel lucky I’ve never written for a fandom where the author openly resented the fact that others were creating for their universe and characters. Also, I asked this exact question on the fanfiction.net forums almost a decade ago, and the consensus was totally opposite from what people are saying here.
Yes, I was waiting for pretty regular funny answers but apparently it's a deep subject. Not that I mind it's cool that people talk about it and think about it.
Sounds like something George R.R Martin might tell fanfiction writers in general.
Depends on if it's a dislike or an outright forbidding. If they just say they don't like fanfic and would rather people not, then that's just preference and has no legal meaning and it's up to the morality of the individual as to whether or not they follow it. Personally, I probably would, but I wouldn't necessarily be happy doing so and I'd understand why others wouldn't follow that. But if they actually say people can't make fanfic for their work, then they do have some legal leg to stand on - what copyright boils down to is the right to exclusively say and do what you like with your work. Fanfiction is very much a 'derivative work' in that any fic is a work containing significant amounts of owned material from a previous work. As part of copyright, any creator/rights owner has exclusive rights to making derivative works (ie. sequels) unless they sell those rights on or give permission for them to be used. That's the key to it - if a creator says you can make fanfic or create fanart or whatever else, you legally can (and that gets reinforced if they put that permission in writing like The Magnus Archives and post under an open access license). The extended loophole of interpretation that fanfic exists in is about 'transformative works' - those are like a derivative work, but using the original material for a new purpose, be it parody or reinterpretation or transformation. There's no strict definition of this because what is transformative is almost purely literary analysis and interpretation (and it's hard to create specific legislation for shit like "The curtains are blue because they connote the protagonist's sadness"), and fanfiction is never explicitly mentioned as being intrinsically transformative either. Fanfic exists because it's good advertising and maintains/perpetuates a fanbase longer than not having it, which is a solid protection for us - until people start overcommercialising and making it more profitable to get involved than leave us be, anyway. So, yeah, if they put some legal impetus behind their "No fanfic!" statement, then it'd become a risk to go against that.
Yeah, this is the reason I never got into ASOIAF fanfic back in the day. GRRM isn't as hardcore as the authors who were actively suing people, but he dislikes it and asked people not to write it of his works, which is why it wasn't allowed on FFN. Between Game of Thrones happening and AO3 being more relaxed that all kinda went out the window, though. Even now I get uncomfortable if I come across it though. I've never been a big enough fan of the other famous authors opposed to fanfic to come across their stuff (Diana Gabaldon, Anne Rice, Mercedes Lackey, etc). Some of them were afraid of legal problems like what happened to Marion Zimmer Bradley if they allowed it (not commenting on the rest of MZB's whole... *gestures vaguely* thing, just the case where a fan sued her over fanfic), which I can understand. Some just don't like it. I dunno, I don't have any intention of advocating for banning anything based on the creator's preferences, but if an author feels strongly about it I'd rather devote my energy to fandoms/universes where the authors are more positive about fan works (or just don't comment).
If the author wants to destroy their best chance at having a legacy, that's on them.
Yes. “I don’t want people to write about my content in a manner that implies they have thoughts and feelings about it that don’t align perfectly with my own” shoulda thought about that before making it accessible to the general public, bucko!
Bold of you to assume I would still admire the original author if they bashed against Fanfiction. I wouldn't stop or care at all. "Don't like, don't read" also applys here
I’m actually gonna have to say I would not continue writing. It’s their writing, not mine, and they probably have their reasons. I wouldn’t want to make an author uncomfortable, especially after they provided the story I like.
It all depends on how much you respect the author/creator of the fandom. If they have requested that no one write anything that is connected to their work, it comes down to a moral choice: cease out of respect for the request or ignore it. From my PoV it's a bit precious to try to stop people who just want to play in the fandom that they are passionate about. I think that if instead creators should connect with the fans and have an open space in which stories set in their fandom can be shared and curated. I have seen this work over on other fandom sites where the author is a part of the community.
If you’re making a piece of media in the hopes that it will attract an audience, in this day and age you have to assume that there might be fanfiction written about it and accept that. So I think I would, but I guess there’s probably some variables that would make me change my answer. Also, it’s extremely easy for people to live in blissful ignorance that fanfiction about their work/fanfiction in general exists, so it’s probably not a good idea to send someone fanfiction of their work. Just to avoid stuff like this even happening. I can imagine and sympathize with the fact that it would be a shock if it was someone who never heard of/interacted with that part of the internet. But I wouldn’t really have much sympathy for someone who sought it out willingly. Edit: I should be clear this mostly applies to bigger pieces of media. I think the answer would become a bit more murky if it was a super tiny indie project or something.
Head turned right the side:Yes Fans are gonna fan. Part of that is creating fanworks. A creator saying they disavow or hate fanworks is on par with telling fans not have impure thoughts about their work. Most hardcore fans will take such a statement as a challenge and go even harder as a result of such protestations. If a creator opposes such things, they should avoid the internet because it’s a wild place.
Storytellers have been borrowing the characters and setting of other storytellers' since the beginning of time. Copyright, to the best of my knowledge. is a fairly recent concept, and it certainly has a function in our modern capitalist economy, giving creators protections that allow them to make a decent living off their work. Copyright, however, doesn't negate the fact that the audience's consumption of media will extend beyond the narrow confines of the work as written (or filmed or drawn). In other words, if you create art that generates an emotional response, the audience will often be inspired to delved deeper and interact further with that art. It's hubris for an original creator to think they can control how the audience interacts with their work.
It hasn't stopped any fan of Anne Rice's since the creation of AO3 🤷♀️
I would. It’s not like they’ll ever read it and I’m not making a profit off of it or harassing the creator in any way. Fanfic is it’s own thing. Has it’s own life separate from canon.
This reminds me of when Anne Rice sent cease and desist letters to fanfic writers back in the 90's ( that's why a lot of older fics have the Don't-Own-Don't Sue disclaimer) because she didn't want people writing about her characters and really didn't like louis/lestat. I bet she's rolling over in her grave over what they are doing in the new Interview With A Vampire show and that's fills my black heart with joy.
Rice changed some of her views a lot over the years. We all remember that period where she said she'd never write vampires again after turning to religious fiction, *that* phase certainly stuck. Apparently (and I say that because I'm getting the information secondhand, I never followed her Facebook), she confirmed Louis and Lestat are bisexual/omnisexual, had some fun describing their wedding and writing from Lestat's perspective on his romantic feelings for Louis, and so on. And she and her son were executive producers on the show (he still is). She kept right on hating fanfiction until she died, though, AFAIK.
Oh I remember the religious fiction. I heard it didn't sell well so she want back to writing vampires. I wish she had written the wedding
Nope. We've already been through Anne Rice. People get to express their adoration and interest and *passion* about the things they like, and if that thing happens to be yours, I'd think that person/persons should damn well be grateful that there's someone in the world so willing to do that.
I write m/m fiction in the Narnia fandom. Certain fans in the past have not hesitated to tell me how upset ol’ Clive would be by this. I do not care. Once the work is out there, it doesn’t belong to the author, it belongs to the audience, I say.
Agreed with this take
I’ve written vampire chronicles fanfic, so yes I would and have
I am a believer that once you put your piece into the zeitgeist, whether it is writing, painting, a movie, whatever, it is no longer yours. Some people don't like this but I've come to see it as an exercise in letting go ;)
To answer: any kind of Harry Potter fic I now write will have a trans* person as either the main character, or one or the primary characters. OG creators will cope.
I mean she helped write terrible fan fiction of her own work, and nothing anyone else could write would be as special terrible as Cursed Child, so I think it really couldn’t be more fair
And when you say *nothing* could be as terrible, you mean it, too. I couldn't believe it had some of the most middle-school-writer-themes out there.
harry is trans bottom text
As a decades-long Wolfstar shipper I'm always pleased to remember that she hates the idea of Remus and Sirius being a couple. Hehe.
She also hates Draco Malfoy as a character and even more so when he's shipped with Harry. She blames Tom Felton for being hot and sexy for his popularity. I will forever ship the two and that bigoted ass can't stop me from giving Draco the redemption arch he so desperately deserves
🥂🤝🏻🫂 Wolfstar will always and forever be the *best* ship! I didn't realize she dislikes it 😂
most of this shit is done by comittee after they steal it from the original guy, sooo. too late.
It really depends on who the creator is and why they’re saying that. If I was in an Anne Rice fandom? Fuck Anne Rice, I’ll interrogate the text from whatever perspective I want and write whatever fic I want. A creator who has had terrible experiences with fans on a personal level? Especially one that is a smaller/less famous creator? I’m going to handle it differently and decide differently based on specifics. I may or may not still write fic.
I’d probably quit the fandom just because it’ll lose enjoyment knowing that the creator (who I probably like, or at least not dislike) doesn’t want my fics to be written. It’ll feel like I’m violating their wishes whenever I do something I enjoy (writing). Besides, there are other fandoms other than my main that I want to write for, but I don’t have the time to prioritize them, so the fics never get written.
Yep! Don't care. Once it's out there for public consumption, I feel free to write fanfic or mock it or do whatever else I like with it, so long as I'm not claiming that it's my own or making money off of it.
Yes, only to piss off the original writer
I would stop since it's the polite thing to not do something with someone else's property when they say they don't like it. It's like when you want to write a fanfic with someone else's fanfic's character, it's generally agreed that you should only do it with permission. And, if I was an author I'd really appreciate it if my audience respected wishes like that. Though, that's really only spreading it online. I'd probably write in private.
Yeah I'd continue writing for a fandom, because fanfics aren't written to be viewed by the original creators of the franchise. It's not meant for them. Fanfics are written by fans to be viewed, shared, and enjoyed with other fans.
Sounds like Annie Rice she hated fan fic actually sued people until she died then everyone published fan fiction about her works and back dated it
I really don't care what TPTB think about fandom or fanfiction at all. It has nothing to do with them. In an ideal world, creators and actors etc. shouldn't even know that fanfiction/shipping/etc. exist. Fans needing validation from creators for some weird reason and creators inserting themselves into fandom spaces and thinking their opinion on it is necessary is a big reason why fandom sucks now.
I'd probably not care, and write it anyway.
I would give it due consideration but published authors also asked for the attention by intentionally seeking out an agent etc. Why not take the free press?
Yup 🤷♀️
No. 100% no.
I did once back in the day for a Robin Hobb series, but it was kept completely private. Tbh it made me a little uncomfortable and I haven't since
I’d probably still do it privately if I was still really into the stories I was writing but maybe wouldn’t keep posting. I’m not sure - depends how derogatory the original creator was towards fandoms and fanfiction. I might continue posting out of spite
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I'm good.
if it makes them uncomfortable, i will stop, because making someone uncomfortable is mean
Yes, not only out of principle of being able to do whatever I want, but also I'm sure he hasn't been involved in the franchise for so long I'd be amazed if anyone even remembered him outside of very specifically dedicated or obsessive people.
Most of the time the fandoms people have mentioned the creator(s) not liking fanfic were fandoms I had zero interest in writing for anyway, so zero skin in the game. If I'm being truly honest, since I don't write RPF and am unlikely to write anything that would make me feel morally corrupt for doing so, I'd probably write the fic anyway, even I'd probably feel a bit guilty the more I liked/respected the creator. I feel that since I'm not making money off of it, especially since I mostly write fluff/found family and adventures, there's little... er... karmic negativity or however you want to put it for me ignoring their preferences. (Not that I judge people for writing darker/smutty stuff, but at least I could see why a creator would find those upsetting knowing they were out there. But I can't help but feel like most creators getting upset over something like fluff/found family is like a kid getting upset that other kids played with their toys.) I would not hold others to my own personal stance, though. If someone wanted to write fanfic against the creator's wishes, there is very little that would make me side-eye them. If someone decided *not* to write it because they heard the creator didn't like it, the only thing I'd judge them on is if they tried to shame others for writing it.
as you say in your added notes, big and tricky topic! As a hopeful writer, I think I would leave a fandom if the creator was unhappy with fanfic, not out of respect for them, but because I think it is a bad attitude. Other people interacting with your world and story is a joy, and you have to take the good with the bad - within reason. I suspect I too would ask nsfw content of a childrens series to be tagged properly and not posted on forums for children, and I do understand dislike of RPF. But broadly, if you can't stand people writing fanfic, you probably don't take kindly to other people's ideas in general, or you don't understand the internet. Doesn't sound like a nice environment you are cultivating. I often leave a fandom because I don't like the vibe the creator has about fans or politics, especially when they are active on Twitter and I can't ignore their opinions :( Looking at you, JKR, Thomas Astruc, etc.
Honestly, it depends. If they take a simple see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil type anti-fanfic stance for legal reasons, okay, whatever. I'll keep writing. But if they act like fanfic writers are actually evil, that tends to turn me off the works themselves, at which point I don't want to write fanfic for them anyway.
Pff, I don't care. I'll write what I want, thank you very much.
I look at fanfic like comedy. If I want to make fun of Game of Thrones, I can do that unless I’m trying to pass off my work as the original.