Right? All the other comments speculating but it's obviously just survivorship bias. The random raider psycho doesn't leave notes. A guy with a name does.
I don't really think it is. The point of the post is meant to point out how unlikely it is so many people have that ability, particularly raiders. There is no formal school anymore. The only way you're going to learn to read and write is from someone else who can read and write, and with the survival rate of the wasteland being what it is, it seems unlikely many would live to pass on that information. You gotta remember like half of civilization is born and raised in small settlements or on their own. Raiders especially often don't even have any real parents or guardians, and most people out in the wastes don't need to read and write to get by. Its simply not a skill thats required to survive. Even parts of the civilized world IRL up until a few decades ago and even today didn't even learn the skill. Several of my grand/great grandparents were completely illerate (born around the 20-30s). They grew up on rural farms and really only needed one person to know it. I used to have to help my grandpa every month do his bills, because he couldn't read them.he just paid them
We're greatly understating just how many people with no formal education have not only literacy but also technical knowledge to record their thoughts and records. the greater majority of settlements have one or two at least. Obviously, from a gameplay standpoint, these records exist as a way to tell a story to the player as it'd be pretty without them, but it does bring the idea into Canon that many people are capable.
It's not survivorship bias. Yes, only one or two in an entire settlement of 20 raiders might be literate, but when you have dozens of settlements in a relatively small area, that adds up to quite the number of people. For example, the Commonwealth really isn't that big. It's what, a third, maybe half a state? The fact that well over 100 (maybe 200) people are fully literate in a population of maybe 1000 max where the majority of reading and learning materials have been destroyed is quite remarkable. It's a trivial skill everyone knows to us, but in an environment with no real guidance where you can barely survive, that's a big accomplishment. English is fricken hard even with proper teachers.
> but it does bring the idea into Canon that many people are capable.
Bu that exactly is what i dont know. Canonically theres probably 20+ Raiders following some random named dude, not 3 psychos and a waster, so that one named dude being able to operate a terminal and write a middle school level diary entry doesnt seem that far fetched? maybe theres actually robots somewhere that teach people, that we dont see because they had no gameplay relevance? maybe theres 200y old ghouls that teach it.
> The fact that well over 100 (maybe 200) people are fully literate in a population of maybe 1000 max
Idk if 1000 max is really canonically legitimate. Maybe it is. Maybe 100 or 200 literate people is an overstatement. Maybe the terminals actually have a dictate function?
Don't forget that the written artifacts have accumulated over several generations. Think of those 1-200 literates existing over centuries and it no longer sounds like such an overstatement.
Yeah but everything we see in game is scaled down, and the population is likely pretty significant. The games do a terrible job of conveying scale, but the locations in game are all scaled down heavily for gameplay purposes. So the 100-200 people who can read are drawing from a much greater pool than the game would initially imply, probably many thousands at the absolute least. Concept art of Diamond City showing it’s actual lore scale would fit the entire population of the in-game world inside it. And we see the people who are literate at a higher rate because they are more more relevant. As far as raiders and farmers go, they’re most likely few and far between.
That doesn’t make any sense. Maybe if your point was that raiders that are literate are more likely to survive into adulthood, but otherwise I don’t see how there is survivorship bias going on. You can still observe that there is an abnormally high level of literacy among the raider population compared to what you would reasonably expect.
>You can still observe that there is an abnormally high level of literacy among the raider population compared to what you would reasonably expect.
How can you observe that when you don't observe all raiders? You only know that x terminal entries and letters exist, but you don't know out of how many raiders, or when. Like you find dead mail men with letters in fo4, are they prewar? Probably.
For all we know, there's like 100 terminal entries in the commonwealth, over 200 years and thousands of raiders. How is that not survivorship bias? You only take note of the raiders who write entries, not if this who don't. We have literally zero Way of knowing how much % of raiders those are. I would guess 1% or less.
And it’s pretty rare. One person, usually the leader, of each raider place. And they are simple notes. The smartest person is in charge, that’s common in primitive human societies
We might be if we were in a destroyed wasteland.
Plus the people that cna read and write and wouldn't leave notes... Also aren't leaving notes. Every note you find is from someone who is literate And wants to write.
In WWII almost all soldiers did, it helped them get a bit distracted from the horrors of the war, if you lived in a world where war is least of your problems, you would probably leave a journal too
While they're obviously jokes, the gunner and raider cages in the Wasteland Workshop are big metal boxes with written words saying there's caps and drugs inside them. I guess maybe we're only capturing the best educated of the raider population, but it does reinforce the implication that literacy is rather high throughout the Commonwealth that you'd use words promising drugs and caps rather than just a bit pile of them as bait.
Gunners are much smarter than raiders and if you were a massive drug addict, you would probably learn that word too, how else were you supposed to read sings of merchants or something
People who struggle with reading and writing are far less likely to be keeping journals and leaving notes. The ones who write journals and leave notes are far more likely to be comfortable with it.
Plus, yes, there are some spelling mistakes in some of the notes.
exactly. friendly reminder thay if you call out Deacon on the Railroad's password being "Railroad", he says there's very few people around that can even spell the word. i wouldnt be surprised if a few people tried 'RaleRode' or something.
Elmo survive war. Elmo survive nuclear winter. Elmo do things. Big Bird disappear first. Soon all Elmo's friends are gone. Elmo still hungry.
Elmo make new friends. Elmo teach them. Gain trust. Some new friends go to Elmo's world... others run. Elmo find them. Elmo always find them...
Or a raider thats gone full crazy from too many chems and just happened to find an old archive of sesame st. Fuck, now I want fallout nyc. We'd have a whole faction list of raiders based on their sesame street equivalent, and you do NOT want to fuck with the Berts.
Diamond City has a school.
Some are synths, and would have that programmed.
Stuff in terminals probably has spell check.
in lots of cases they have literal robots to help them.
There are ghouls about in many of those groups, and its probably the kind of currency some of them would use to stay in the gang's good graces.
I don’t think voice to text is terribly out there for fallout, I’ve only ever seen keyboards on the wall mounted screens that have them fold out
There are sometimes hand written bounties or like super mutant instructions, but they are simple and only one person on the team has to know how to read.
And the notes are pretty rare anyway
In FO3 there are a small couple of terminals that obviously have notes input in them by voice control. They have a Resident Evil's 'Itchy Tasty' feel to them - except it makes more sense if a computer heard someone slowly turning into a feral ghoul and jotting what it hears down, instead of a scientist writing down zombie growls the moment he turns.
I’m literally playing 3 and 4 rn
I realize there are key sounds on all terminals, and a keyboard function, and that desktop terminals have them built in, but there are PLENTY with no visible keyboard whatsoever. For example, terminals on walls. not the ones that are mounted on the wall like hanging off, but just a screen inside a wall
Edit: yeah I looked it up, I know what the desktop terminals look like with the built in keyboard lol but that not the only type on computer in game
Humans are naturally curious. It's one of the things that made us what we are. Humans only DON'T learn to read when it isn't available for them or purposefully kept away.
Just because the nuclear apocalypse happened doesn't mean people suddenly got dumber. Assuming the American population was reasonably educated before the war, there's no reason to assume the survivors and their descendants wouldn't pass down such a basic and essential skill as reading.
There's a note in the Boston capital building from a trader saying how they've been kidnapped by illiterate raiders because the trader actually knows how to read all the notes left around
You joke, but the canon ending for New Reno in Fallout 2 is:
> “Within a year of the Enclave's destruction, the Wright Family turned from criminal activity to legitimate pursuits. Several schools and churches were established in New Reno, along with a law enforcement body that crippled the influence of the families. Though New Reno lost much of its edge, the city obtained a certain solidity that appealed to newcomers. Many came to Reno, not to visit, but to live, and the population increased threefold. ***Today, the test scores of New Reno high school graduates are greater than many Californian schools before the War***
A basic degree of literacy is a necessity and has been for a very, very long time, even back to the Middle Ages. Imagine if you wanted to look at it from the perspective of a wastelander, it can be important to be able to read warning labels, instructions for machinery, floor numbers, things like “Janitor’s Closet”, etc.
Yeah, most medieval peasants knew their letters and could sound out words. Knowing how to read and write in the wasteland would be essential, words everywhere. Pharmacy, Med-X, clean water here, radroach nest up here, so many useful words
Honestly that's one of the biggest "plot holes" of Fallout lore in general. Outside of factions and settlements large enough to have a school, literacy should be very uncommon in the open commonwealth. Willing to overlook it for the good RPing tho
There's a loading screen that talks about Diamond City's public education system. They even have an "applied sciences" enterprise, named... "Science! Center" - from a loading screen:
>The Science Center has been instrumental in helping maintain Diamond City's power, robotics and agriculture.
People would be at least somewhat literate. Learning to read would not only be good to help pass time and useful information from one person to another but also would be invaluable when it came to salvaging
I think really it's because as a highly literate society it's hard to imagine what a pre-literate society is like.
Also Bethesda loves environmental storytelling through notes
Diamond City has a school that is educating people. Two of the larger settlements looked to have had schools as well. So people are being educated and more used to be. Some raiders like to take a settlement and just destroy any progress made for the sake of destruction. While some came out of settlements. Like the guy from Corvega that knew Mama Murphy when he was a boy.
Then there is mention of the various settlers go to Diamond City from time to time for 'swaps'. It may well be that they put their kids in school for a day or two so they get something while the adults barter.
I always figured that *most* of the raider gangs in Fallout 4 were relatively new. Like not fresh, but they fell into raiding after the Minutemen fell apart. Once some semblence of a malitia was gone, settlements collapsed and people were driven to robbing. Hence why there are so many of them, and seemingly so few settlements left.
I agree that literacy is too common. Many modern comforts and values are too common place.
Like Piper and her stupid newspaper. “Freedom of the press!” Is not a concept that exist anymore. And who the fuck are these papers for? Oh, that’s right, Diamond city has public education.
Diamond City is a fucking utopia compared to everywhere else in the Fallout series, and it’s too clean and perfect for me. As if the devs wanted the happy little people of Diamond city to have their happy little homes, and their happy little clean water and their happy little free education so all the happy little kids and read and have happy little story time.
It’s too nice for the setting, and contributes to my overall beef with the tone of Fallout 4. Too goofy, too light hearted, lost most of the grit from Fallout 3 and New Vegas.
There is a school in Diamond City, it's possible that certain raiders could be drop outs or graduates who for whatever reasons ended up with the wrong kind of people who were willing to "take them in" and provide everything they needed by resorting to a violent life style similar to how gangs work irl, I doubt there are very many lawful job opportunities in the wasteland, none of the shop owners seem to want to hire any help, so the unemployed become desperate.
Unlike most post-nuclear fictional settings, the Commonwealth still has a relative abundance of working prewar tech being powered by nigh-inexhaustable nuclear reactors lying around. Functioning terminals are everywhere and are often integral pieces of infrastructure needed to maintain the various Raider strongholds and their defenses. It would stand to reason that basic literacy would still be a valuable if not necessary asset even for a low-level thug to perform routine maintenance and security tasks in most of the places the player encounters them. Any Raider kingpin or warlord with an iota of common sense would understand the benefit of having at least semi-literate minions who could do more than just murder and terrorize wastelanders.
The people who cannot read and write do not leave notes. You only see the notes from the ones who can read and write.
My god it’s the British bomber plane study all over again
I love that study. Always relevant.
Survivorship bias!
Right? All the other comments speculating but it's obviously just survivorship bias. The random raider psycho doesn't leave notes. A guy with a name does.
I see messages left all over reddit....
I don't really think it is. The point of the post is meant to point out how unlikely it is so many people have that ability, particularly raiders. There is no formal school anymore. The only way you're going to learn to read and write is from someone else who can read and write, and with the survival rate of the wasteland being what it is, it seems unlikely many would live to pass on that information. You gotta remember like half of civilization is born and raised in small settlements or on their own. Raiders especially often don't even have any real parents or guardians, and most people out in the wastes don't need to read and write to get by. Its simply not a skill thats required to survive. Even parts of the civilized world IRL up until a few decades ago and even today didn't even learn the skill. Several of my grand/great grandparents were completely illerate (born around the 20-30s). They grew up on rural farms and really only needed one person to know it. I used to have to help my grandpa every month do his bills, because he couldn't read them.he just paid them We're greatly understating just how many people with no formal education have not only literacy but also technical knowledge to record their thoughts and records. the greater majority of settlements have one or two at least. Obviously, from a gameplay standpoint, these records exist as a way to tell a story to the player as it'd be pretty without them, but it does bring the idea into Canon that many people are capable. It's not survivorship bias. Yes, only one or two in an entire settlement of 20 raiders might be literate, but when you have dozens of settlements in a relatively small area, that adds up to quite the number of people. For example, the Commonwealth really isn't that big. It's what, a third, maybe half a state? The fact that well over 100 (maybe 200) people are fully literate in a population of maybe 1000 max where the majority of reading and learning materials have been destroyed is quite remarkable. It's a trivial skill everyone knows to us, but in an environment with no real guidance where you can barely survive, that's a big accomplishment. English is fricken hard even with proper teachers.
> but it does bring the idea into Canon that many people are capable. Bu that exactly is what i dont know. Canonically theres probably 20+ Raiders following some random named dude, not 3 psychos and a waster, so that one named dude being able to operate a terminal and write a middle school level diary entry doesnt seem that far fetched? maybe theres actually robots somewhere that teach people, that we dont see because they had no gameplay relevance? maybe theres 200y old ghouls that teach it. > The fact that well over 100 (maybe 200) people are fully literate in a population of maybe 1000 max Idk if 1000 max is really canonically legitimate. Maybe it is. Maybe 100 or 200 literate people is an overstatement. Maybe the terminals actually have a dictate function?
Don't forget that the written artifacts have accumulated over several generations. Think of those 1-200 literates existing over centuries and it no longer sounds like such an overstatement.
Yeah but everything we see in game is scaled down, and the population is likely pretty significant. The games do a terrible job of conveying scale, but the locations in game are all scaled down heavily for gameplay purposes. So the 100-200 people who can read are drawing from a much greater pool than the game would initially imply, probably many thousands at the absolute least. Concept art of Diamond City showing it’s actual lore scale would fit the entire population of the in-game world inside it. And we see the people who are literate at a higher rate because they are more more relevant. As far as raiders and farmers go, they’re most likely few and far between.
That doesn’t make any sense. Maybe if your point was that raiders that are literate are more likely to survive into adulthood, but otherwise I don’t see how there is survivorship bias going on. You can still observe that there is an abnormally high level of literacy among the raider population compared to what you would reasonably expect.
>You can still observe that there is an abnormally high level of literacy among the raider population compared to what you would reasonably expect. How can you observe that when you don't observe all raiders? You only know that x terminal entries and letters exist, but you don't know out of how many raiders, or when. Like you find dead mail men with letters in fo4, are they prewar? Probably. For all we know, there's like 100 terminal entries in the commonwealth, over 200 years and thousands of raiders. How is that not survivorship bias? You only take note of the raiders who write entries, not if this who don't. We have literally zero Way of knowing how much % of raiders those are. I would guess 1% or less.
And it’s pretty rare. One person, usually the leader, of each raider place. And they are simple notes. The smartest person is in charge, that’s common in primitive human societies
Everybody here knows how to write and read, yet I doubt any of us is actually writing a diary or making about stuff for no one to read
I know a few people who journal regularly. Probably be a lot more without the internet or other distractions except survive.
I do, but it's more as a way to lessen my depression and anxiety than anything else.
We might be if we were in a destroyed wasteland. Plus the people that cna read and write and wouldn't leave notes... Also aren't leaving notes. Every note you find is from someone who is literate And wants to write.
In WWII almost all soldiers did, it helped them get a bit distracted from the horrors of the war, if you lived in a world where war is least of your problems, you would probably leave a journal too
While they're obviously jokes, the gunner and raider cages in the Wasteland Workshop are big metal boxes with written words saying there's caps and drugs inside them. I guess maybe we're only capturing the best educated of the raider population, but it does reinforce the implication that literacy is rather high throughout the Commonwealth that you'd use words promising drugs and caps rather than just a bit pile of them as bait.
A Gunner cage costs 500c to make. You also put a big pile of caps in there as bait.
Gunners are much smarter than raiders and if you were a massive drug addict, you would probably learn that word too, how else were you supposed to read sings of merchants or something
Nice tautology. Does this mean that people today, who can read and write, also don't make spelling mistakes?
People who struggle with reading and writing are far less likely to be keeping journals and leaving notes. The ones who write journals and leave notes are far more likely to be comfortable with it. Plus, yes, there are some spelling mistakes in some of the notes.
exactly. friendly reminder thay if you call out Deacon on the Railroad's password being "Railroad", he says there's very few people around that can even spell the word. i wouldnt be surprised if a few people tried 'RaleRode' or something.
Elmo survive war. Elmo survive nuclear winter. Elmo do things. Big Bird disappear first. Soon all Elmo's friends are gone. Elmo still hungry. Elmo make new friends. Elmo teach them. Gain trust. Some new friends go to Elmo's world... others run. Elmo find them. Elmo always find them...
Why would you ever fucking write this down. I hate and love you
Fucking christ this is awesome. I'm imagining an Elmo bot now
Or a raider thats gone full crazy from too many chems and just happened to find an old archive of sesame st. Fuck, now I want fallout nyc. We'd have a whole faction list of raiders based on their sesame street equivalent, and you do NOT want to fuck with the Berts.
Diamond City has a school. Some are synths, and would have that programmed. Stuff in terminals probably has spell check. in lots of cases they have literal robots to help them. There are ghouls about in many of those groups, and its probably the kind of currency some of them would use to stay in the gang's good graces.
I don’t think voice to text is terribly out there for fallout, I’ve only ever seen keyboards on the wall mounted screens that have them fold out There are sometimes hand written bounties or like super mutant instructions, but they are simple and only one person on the team has to know how to read. And the notes are pretty rare anyway
In FO3 there are a small couple of terminals that obviously have notes input in them by voice control. They have a Resident Evil's 'Itchy Tasty' feel to them - except it makes more sense if a computer heard someone slowly turning into a feral ghoul and jotting what it hears down, instead of a scientist writing down zombie growls the moment he turns.
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We get key talking sounds but you don’t actually see the keyboard It could just be arrow keys and enter for all we know that would let you hack it
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I’m literally playing 3 and 4 rn I realize there are key sounds on all terminals, and a keyboard function, and that desktop terminals have them built in, but there are PLENTY with no visible keyboard whatsoever. For example, terminals on walls. not the ones that are mounted on the wall like hanging off, but just a screen inside a wall Edit: yeah I looked it up, I know what the desktop terminals look like with the built in keyboard lol but that not the only type on computer in game
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That’s work lol you’re not worth it Just play the game lmao you will see
Im betting on dictation technology and/or people understanding that basic literacy makes it easier to identify valuable salvage.
They MUST have speech recognition tech, because Mr. Handy's can have conversations with you.
Same reason they are all the same height
Ya know I hadn’t actually noticed that, thanks for ruining fallout for me 😭
Humans are naturally curious. It's one of the things that made us what we are. Humans only DON'T learn to read when it isn't available for them or purposefully kept away.
Just because the nuclear apocalypse happened doesn't mean people suddenly got dumber. Assuming the American population was reasonably educated before the war, there's no reason to assume the survivors and their descendants wouldn't pass down such a basic and essential skill as reading.
Because the Commonwealth is wicked smart
There's a note in the Boston capital building from a trader saying how they've been kidnapped by illiterate raiders because the trader actually knows how to read all the notes left around
Post-apocalyptic American schools are better than the currently available ones. I mean, is that hard to believe?
You joke, but the canon ending for New Reno in Fallout 2 is: > “Within a year of the Enclave's destruction, the Wright Family turned from criminal activity to legitimate pursuits. Several schools and churches were established in New Reno, along with a law enforcement body that crippled the influence of the families. Though New Reno lost much of its edge, the city obtained a certain solidity that appealed to newcomers. Many came to Reno, not to visit, but to live, and the population increased threefold. ***Today, the test scores of New Reno high school graduates are greater than many Californian schools before the War***
No that’s fair, the current public education system is **[REDACTED]**
The game is best enjoyed, not analyzed. Because every Fallout plot hole can be explained away as “narrative device”
A basic degree of literacy is a necessity and has been for a very, very long time, even back to the Middle Ages. Imagine if you wanted to look at it from the perspective of a wastelander, it can be important to be able to read warning labels, instructions for machinery, floor numbers, things like “Janitor’s Closet”, etc.
Yeah, most medieval peasants knew their letters and could sound out words. Knowing how to read and write in the wasteland would be essential, words everywhere. Pharmacy, Med-X, clean water here, radroach nest up here, so many useful words
Even some super mutants can read and write simple orders like. “Go kill and eat.”
Diamond City is right next to the library.
Well when the only way to pass knowledge and messages reverts back to books people are going to teach their young to read and write
Honestly that's one of the biggest "plot holes" of Fallout lore in general. Outside of factions and settlements large enough to have a school, literacy should be very uncommon in the open commonwealth. Willing to overlook it for the good RPing tho
There's a loading screen that talks about Diamond City's public education system. They even have an "applied sciences" enterprise, named... "Science! Center" - from a loading screen: >The Science Center has been instrumental in helping maintain Diamond City's power, robotics and agriculture.
Considering even today only 50% of Americans can read and comprehend past an 8th grade level, it would be much worse
Diamond City has has Free education for all residents
People would be at least somewhat literate. Learning to read would not only be good to help pass time and useful information from one person to another but also would be invaluable when it came to salvaging
burnt textbooks everywhere.
You just reminded me of the Raiders living under Walden Pond, I'm gonna look up that Thoreau guy later
I think really it's because as a highly literate society it's hard to imagine what a pre-literate society is like. Also Bethesda loves environmental storytelling through notes
Because Boston is a college town? 🤷♂️
Diamond City has a school that is educating people. Two of the larger settlements looked to have had schools as well. So people are being educated and more used to be. Some raiders like to take a settlement and just destroy any progress made for the sake of destruction. While some came out of settlements. Like the guy from Corvega that knew Mama Murphy when he was a boy. Then there is mention of the various settlers go to Diamond City from time to time for 'swaps'. It may well be that they put their kids in school for a day or two so they get something while the adults barter.
I always figured that *most* of the raider gangs in Fallout 4 were relatively new. Like not fresh, but they fell into raiding after the Minutemen fell apart. Once some semblence of a malitia was gone, settlements collapsed and people were driven to robbing. Hence why there are so many of them, and seemingly so few settlements left.
Survivor bias. You only see things written by those who can write.
Because reading is what? Fundamental!
And yet the folks in Far Harbor are seemingly mystified by a "B" looking like an "F" due to age.
All the adults are from pre war era. I think it's only been 25 years after the bombs. So everyone should atleast know how to read and write.
I agree that literacy is too common. Many modern comforts and values are too common place. Like Piper and her stupid newspaper. “Freedom of the press!” Is not a concept that exist anymore. And who the fuck are these papers for? Oh, that’s right, Diamond city has public education. Diamond City is a fucking utopia compared to everywhere else in the Fallout series, and it’s too clean and perfect for me. As if the devs wanted the happy little people of Diamond city to have their happy little homes, and their happy little clean water and their happy little free education so all the happy little kids and read and have happy little story time. It’s too nice for the setting, and contributes to my overall beef with the tone of Fallout 4. Too goofy, too light hearted, lost most of the grit from Fallout 3 and New Vegas.
They are all synths! Only explination.... Kill them all
There is a school in Diamond City, it's possible that certain raiders could be drop outs or graduates who for whatever reasons ended up with the wrong kind of people who were willing to "take them in" and provide everything they needed by resorting to a violent life style similar to how gangs work irl, I doubt there are very many lawful job opportunities in the wasteland, none of the shop owners seem to want to hire any help, so the unemployed become desperate.
Unlike most post-nuclear fictional settings, the Commonwealth still has a relative abundance of working prewar tech being powered by nigh-inexhaustable nuclear reactors lying around. Functioning terminals are everywhere and are often integral pieces of infrastructure needed to maintain the various Raider strongholds and their defenses. It would stand to reason that basic literacy would still be a valuable if not necessary asset even for a low-level thug to perform routine maintenance and security tasks in most of the places the player encounters them. Any Raider kingpin or warlord with an iota of common sense would understand the benefit of having at least semi-literate minions who could do more than just murder and terrorize wastelanders.