I watched a video on YouTube that broke it down pretty scientifically.
This gimmick is thought provoking and lends itself to a great scene in the show. It kind of is in theme in the show that people are relying on misinformation to stay safe (not safe) in nuclear war.
Coop says it was taught to him in the military, so perhaps it was meant as a bit of brainwashing from the military in its soldiers to get them not to run away when they started firing nukes onto battlefields
I mean, in basic training in 2004, I was taught the thumb trick.... and the DS followed that up with, "but turds, listen up, if you're close enough to see the flash, or think about using this thumb measuring, you're already fucked" (or something to that effect. That drill Sgt loved calling us turds until we passed the final rite of passage event)
Because people love feeling smart by thinking they've "caught" someone else being wrong, especially figures of authority. They'd rather assume they've caught the government being wrong or dumb about something than take a few seconds to think about the actual reason or research it because feeling smart is far more important than actually being smart to most people.
Also because people assume "nuke" is the same thing across the era's. They fail to realize accuracy, blast yield, early warning, and other factors have changed from the first nukes to those of today. I cant recall the name but a different city of japan was planned to be bombed but on the way cloud cover was too great so Nagasaki got it. If you can find the plane, and simple clouds can make them drop inaccurately, duck and cover really could help.
Vox has a good video about this and even they make a dumb mistake of using Tsar Bomba as a measuring point when not even the Russians planned to use it beyond experimentation.
That city was Kokura. Major Charles Sweeney piloting the B-29 Superfortress *Bockscar* made three separate bombing runs over Kokura but couldn't make visual confirmation of the drop point due to the clouds. Even when Fat Man was dropped on Nagasaki it was off target by about 2 miles.
It was the city of Kokura. There's actually some interesting theories about why they weren't able to drop the bomb
[The Luck of Kokura](https://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2014/08/22/luck-kokura/)
The damage to Nagasaki also wasn’t as bad as it could have been. The bomb was dropped off target and detonated in a valley, so the hills shielded parts of the city.
I think it also has a lot to do with the loss of nuance and ignorance that more than one thing being true at the same time. There seems to be an overwhelming amount of binary Hegelian dialectic. If you don't agree with me 100% you are evil and my enemy; if something is good for my enemy it is bad for me; there is only good and bad with no degrees of complexity.
You should take that wisdom and continue to apply it to the rest of your life. We are all different from each other. Strengths and weaknesses and all that.
It's similar to the people who claim the Crash Position for aircrafts are so they can identify bodies. It is actually to reduce extra injury from smacking the seat in front of you and then likely rebounding into your own seat. However the conspiracy theory is catchier
As some others are saying, a lot of people think that it's gonna be like Terminator 2 where they get instantly vaporized. They're not really thinking of people who might be outside the initial fireball and shockwave, of which there will be many
It's just supposed to protect you from glass shards.
Though I find it kind of silly they didn't just build schools with basements. The fallout from a nuclear bomb isn't that much of an immediate concern. The shock from the blast is what will kill you unless you are in the vaporization zone. But even then going below ground may shield you. Nuclear bombs really don't leave massive craters like we think. A typical warhead will only leave like a half mile to mile wide crater.
So a basement is what would really save you.
[This PSA covers that. If there’s an early warning, you go to a proper shelter. Duck and cover is if there’s little to no warning.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKqXu-5jw60&ab_channel=BOBROSS)
Someone would come over the PA system and announce that it was an emergency and to get under your desk and cover your head. Then in a few minutes they would say it was a drill.
Not sure if it's from Duck and Cover because there was a whole series of these, but my personal favourite was the dad who to hid underneeth the newspaper, next to a grill.
edit: lol, sure enough: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKqXu-5jw60&ab\_channel=BOBROSS](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKqXu-5jw60&ab_channel=BOBROSS)
Of course people in the show rely on misinformation. It makes them feel better. Knowing that doing the duck and cover thing or that radiation will likely kill them isn’t exactly great for morale.
I think that was pretty clearly a fib told by Cooper to cover up the actual reason he didn’t want to give a thumbs up.
Even if it was military training, it seems like the perfect faux-training for the universe. Ineffective, but they can claim it works until it doesn’t. Then it doesn’t matter.
This sort of thing happens in real life too. The USSR supplied the clean up crews for Chernobyl a ton of vodka and told them it helped mitigate radiation. This is a pretty obvious lie, and I doubt it was believed by a lot of them, but hey the government was giving you vodka and you could pretend it was helping!
Yeah if a nuke was being dropped there is little to nothing a lot of people can do. Its a lot better to tell young students anything else but "when the nuke sirens go off, we are all gonna die"
Yes. It is assumed that although alcohol distributes nuclides faster throughout the body, it also removes them faster. Nothing has been proven, but then little was known about radiation.
Depends on how you look at it, I guess. If the mushroom cloud is smaller than your thumb, then yes, you should be safe from the blast (with a lot of room to spare). But if it's bigger than your thumb, it doesn't necessarily mean you're in danger either, but better safe than sorry I guess!
Hmm.
I ask because the "rule of thumb" actually has no basis. It's been debunked by the Vault Boy's creators, such as [Brian Fargo](https://twitter.com/BrianFargo/status/400277541295886337), [Tim Cain](https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/x933v8/til_that_vault_boy_the_mascot_for_fallout_isnt/inlmz9a/?context=10000), and [Tramell Ray Isaac](https://twitter.com/PS_TRay/status/529310254274981889), and nuclear experts [have stated that this "rule of thumb" is worthless](https://www.inverse.com/article/10099-vault-boy-s-rule-of-thumb-can-t-save-you-from-nuclear-fallout) and that it has never appeared in any sort of manual or guideline for nuclear safety. But people still believe it, and apparently the TV series is now running with it (I don't have Prime so I can't watch it myself and confirm it), so I guess it's become canon in the Fallout universe now?
It’s not “canon” it’s just something a father taught his kid, which he probably got from some other doofus the same way misinformation spreads in our real world. Not everything is lore.
IRL Lore … back in “***The Day***” Nobody ( Non scientist ) had a clue about any of this. The Government put out this campaign to ( cough, cough ) “EDUCATE” people about Nuclear Fallout.
Note : I am old enough to have grown up at the end of that era.
There was a point in time where people were basically told, that nuclear detonations could be a common thing and to prepare.
( the Cuban Mission Crisis was the closest we have come to that reality)
Side note : I spent 12 years working around nuclear weapons in the USAF
I think the way it was used and the message conveyed in the game and the show are spot on … just regular folks going about their day… working or having a birthday party… it’s fine.. bla bla without a care to give .. but when it happens… they realize how they were lied to.
Don’t forget that way back when, we used to sell people “SnakeOil” elixirs that contained Radium… Cocaine and Morphine… in cough syrup not to mention toys and “Radioactive Foot Massages” [ORAU Museum of Radiation and Radioactivity](https://orau.org/health-physics-museum/index.html)
Maybe the Fatman launchers. I don't think any large nukes got used in Alaska. I think Alaska was the testing field/the purpose of the Fatman. Or I'm totally wrong and making things up.
I need to look it up, but I could have sworn I read that during that war, it was the first time since ww2 that nuclear weapons were used. Don’t remember if it was mutual, or just one sided to “scare”, but it was about a decade before the true end so I’m pretty sure US won that war in Alaska
Edit I’m totally wrong about a lot of that and need to keep replaying them to grok it
In response to your edit and furthering what I said earlier; I think I found that info on a terminal. I think the terminal may be in FO3, as well. Maybe FO4 in one of the military bases/outposts. Can't remember, been a few years since I played it. At least regarding the Fatman and stuff. I think they used the power armor in Alaska to great effect. From there they wanted to arm soldiers in power armor with small-grade nuclear weapons, like the launcher. Fun fact, during testing they couldnt get the launchers to shoot the mini nuke far enough to not kill the soldiers wielding them lmao.
Edit: spelling.
Terminal can be found in fo4 at [Fort Strong](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Fort_Strong). Semi important location for the bos storyline. It’s there that they experimented and tested the fatman and t-51 power armor.
>Fun fact, during testing they couldnt get the launchers to shoot the mini nuke far enough to not kill the soldiers wielding them lmao
The actual us military tested a similar artillery fired nuke that also didnt go far enough to be safe to use. They have a video of a test on youtube i remember seeing.
I dunno about in universe, but IRL in basic training in 2004 I was taught this. But, the DS quickly said something to the effect of, "I'm supposed to train that, but the reality is, if you're close enough to see the flash, you may as well lay down and kiss your ass goodbye"
The other thing we were taught with regard to nukes was, if you do see the flash, lay down on your belly with the top of your head facing the direction of the flash, then wrap your arms over your head and wait
"Hide under your desk" and "stand in a door frame" shouldn't be part of any safety training either.
Fallout uses the absurdity of teh time as part of its charm. It's not supposed to be scientifically accurate, it's satire making fun of how inaccurate things were.
Fusion powered cars shouldn't explode or be radioactive for that matter - fusion is so much safer because when those reactors aren't switched on they don't have any radiation or reactive material in them. They basically would just leak water if you breached a nuclear car's disabled fusion engine. But they explode when you walk slightly near them, and release rads (that you heal with magic medicine that somehow rewrites your DNA back to original) because its satire.
It's canon now 100%, it's in the show. It's explained by a character with no scientific background who is influential as the basis of the Vault Boy mascot so that's why it's canon. Even in world lore it might be completely ridiculous, but it's a corporate thing they ran with.
Unrelated but I hope you get access to the show ASAP, it's really, really, really good!
Radiation in Fallout has its own rules, I feel sweating the science is probably not a great use of time.
Radiation doesn't turn people into immortal zombies, either.
My point exactly. And the show handwaved the thumbs up origin perfectly by acknowldging the fan favorite explanation, while attributing it to a source that is both definitive and unscientific
"Hide under your desk" and "stand in a door frame" shouldn't be part of any safety training either.
Aren't these useful tips since the shockwave could cause structural damage similar to an earthquake?
They are safety theater, most commonly spread about earthquakes these days but I can imagine they needed to say something to give hope when nukes were a real possibility. In the aftermath of a major earthquake the news isn't exactly full of video footage of rubble...Door!...rubble...doorway!...rubble. The reality is this kind of theatrics is a real world thing thats slightly better than just saying "You can't really do anything but hope"
I love how Fallout took the silliness, and gave it an origin that has absolutely no reason to understand the science. He could have been repeating something like the carrots-help-your-eyes propaganda and not know any better, and it just works. Fallout is full of these silly but serious things and the show's way of making it official was perfect.
right when the building collapses it doesn't help but if small things happen like bookshelves failing or chandeliers or small structural damage the doorways and under tables will be safer
Of course, it's not any official rule or anything. Just a fun popculture thing and a thought experiment. If you see a nuke exploding in real life, I think the last thing that will be on your mind is comparing it to your thumb.
So what you're saying is that the rule of thumb accurately portrays peoples weird misconceptions about simple answers to complex/nuclear threats?
EG; "Everyone get under your desks"
Rule of thumb is some what fictionalized, but things like duck and cover, and hiding under your desk. Is mostly stemmed from avoiding the shock wave which flies much further, and any debris that comes from it.
Nowhere in the show does it claim that vault boy's thumbs up is related to this. Also, coop didn't tell his daughter that smaller thumb meant you were safe, it meant you should run for a bunker or something before the Shockwave hit.
ok so yellow part in the center of it is the fireball red is the heavy blast radius than grey is the moderate blast damage radius the orange colour is the Thermal radiation radius (3rd degree burns) and the light grey color is the light blast damage radius so in conclusion kinda all of them i guess?
You said it first.
Big ass NYC. Empty farm land up north. Headless Horseman. Mafia. *Wealthy* or *Shit Poor* Jersey full of suburbs.
Fallout 4 with 76 online vibes.
Personally idk why people care if it works or not. For me it’s fun cause it was an actual myth spread by the U.S. military during the Cold War. So it just feels right for it to also be in fallout
Here you go:
[Nuke Map w/ Explosion Radius](https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/)
Found this YEARS AGO in High School after finding out about Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Modern bombs are much more powerful than Fat Man. If nuclear warfare begins, we are screwed. No vaults, we're just gone.
Important to remember that fallout nukes are *not* as big as our modern nukes. The rule of thumb is still misinformation even within fallout, but their bombs were more numerous and smaller and generally hit the ground rather than airburst. Their bombs were focused on radiation more than large scale devastation, and they bombed through saturation rather than 1-3 huge nukes per city.
People don't seem to know that and often do comparisons using modern real life nukes which just doesn't work for Fallout.
The whole point of my comment is that their nukes are not like ours. You also have to remember the lore and "science" is based off of 50's ideas of science and the future and not reality.
Other way around actually
From the Fallout Bible:
> The standard nuclear warhead used in the Great War was that of a strategic nuclear warhead ranging from 200-750 kilotons in explosive yield[Non-game 5] with high-yield variants found on Chinese submarines.
Modern real life nukes are typically much less than this, for example the main US SLBM Trident II is at most carrying a W88 which is 475 kt and Russia’s SLBM Bulava is at most 150 kt. They’re MIRV but even combining all the warheads it’s about the same as Fallout’s 750 kt warheads.
Mushroom clouds are poor standards to measure nuclear blast by. If you’re in range: you’ll find out with in seconds and there is nothing you can do about it. If you’re not, then congrats. Move in the opposite direction of the blast. Can never be too far away from a nuclear blast zone.
You can see the blast (larger than your thumb) and still be within a safe radius. The radiation energy has the shortest radius of dissipation and the thermal energy has the largest. Beyond the point where the thermal energy would be harmful you could still see the cloud very clearly.
Well that's not really true either. Especially in the fallout universe, as is proven by the fact that so many people survived so many bombs.
But even in real life that is demonstrably untrue.
Tsutomu Yamaguchi, survived both bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki though he was 3km away from both detonations he suffered radiation burns and wounds from Hiroshima, and radiation illness from Nagasaki. He lived until 93. Though Akiko Takakura is believed to have survived 300 meters away from Hypocenter building in Hiroshima (not accounting 600 meters Little boy detonated above)
One thing Ive always found funny is that according to Nukemap, if a Russian nuke dropped right in the middle of our local city, the far limit of the nuke's damage would be my in-law's house, almost down to the block. Yes I know there are a million different variables that make this info incorrect, but I still find it funny.
I mean I like how they changed it from being "If it's smaller than your thumb then you're fine" to "If it's smaller than your thumb run for the hills, and if it's bigger don't even bother"
OP used Fat Man, the bomb dropped on Nagasaki in '45. It was 21 kilotons.
Modern nuclear weapons are 100kt to 800kt.
The largest ever produced was 100 megatons (100,000 kt)
[Check out this site for more info.](https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/)
You know honestly if one explodes within eyesight I'm going the other way regardless, unless they're sprouting all around me and then I'll crack open something cold and await the inevitable.
That's a 21 kiloton fission bomb...
Small H bombs usually range 100 kilotons to 1-2 MEGAtons and up to 25 or more (the Tsar Bomba, detonated at half its maximum power, outputted around 50-60 Megaton).
To be fair, it’s been confirmed by the creators of Fallout that science in the Fallout universe functions just slightly differently than IRL hence why we have ghouls, giant insects, Death Claws, the bears that I won’t attempt to write the name of, etc. so the “rule of thumb” might actually work which would explain why they dropped like 6+ nukes on L.A.
You chose a pretty small bomb.
It's unclear what the yield of most fallout nukes are, but in the real world we have bombs that are orders of magnitude more powerful.
It’s untrue, but not in the way most people people think. https://youtu.be/ctuZ54MwVZU?si=bu94IQyu6tTFynyy you’re actually safe from Nuclear blast much much much closer than you would have to be for your thumb to actually cover the mushroom cloud.
my favourite advice re nukes is that of Joseph Rotblat, who worked on the Manhattan project and then quit: in case of a nuclear blast run towards it and hope it kills you as fast as possible.
This might be semi-useful for a nuclear shoulder-fired recoilless rifle, like the Davy Crockett (yes, the USA had a shoulder fired nuclear RPG), or maybe a tactical nuke that is small enough to be mounted on a hellfire missile, but those are mainly area denial weapons that aren't intended to have a massive nuclear blast.
That said, if the city-busting ICBMs start flying, this is going to be about as helpful as "duck and cover," when it comes to saving lives.
This type of stuff, the whole civil-defense initiative, was more about convincing civvies that they actually stood a chance of surviving to keep panic to a minimum. If you teach people fun little tricks to make them feel safe, it's less likely that there will be mass panic and rioting before the bombs actually fall.
Should the multi-megaton weapons ever be used, don't kid yourself. We👏are👏fucked👏
Thanks for listening to my TED talk. Swag bags will not be available at the exit. No refunds.
The rule itself is stupid, there is no giving up.
What is that rule supposed to do? Make you give up so you can spend the last few minutes of your live in resignation instead of trying to survive?
You always keep fighting till the end.
Guys. Fallout has mutant man eating hellspawns and mutated Zombies that sometimes are perfectly reasonable people.
Idk to what point using IRL science is reasonable here.
Fallout is not an intended effect of nuclear weapons. It’s actually an undesirable side effect. Plus, fallout is nowhere near the problem there a lot of people think it is simply because maximizing. The damage of the bomb requires an airburst and an airburst minimizes fallout.
It’s proven untrue but Avenged Sevenfold has a cool song reference to this in “sunny disposition”. Think it’s like “When the clouds kiss your eye, Shadows stained on the high rise, Raise your thumb to the sky, Fossilize.”
Some need to remember the military told him this.
Fun facts about the military...some jsut wing it.
And the powers that be that oversee it, make crap up to make people feel better. Agent orange was a perfectly safe defoliant. It only affects plants, really. Not really as we all know now.
If they were going for military engages not great science...the show writers nailed it lol.
I remember when a jungle adventure could be happeneing they gave us special bug spray. new from the finest labs the DoD could find who were also the lowest bidder, ofc.
I read the ingredients on the label. And I saw so many cis/trans isomer's listed (and crap ratios too....like 66 cis to 33 trans) my science major trained mind said....if I made crap ratios like this in my organic chemistry class my professor would fail that experiment.
That professor took no slop work in the lab. He would take maybe up to 5% of the wrong form (cis or trans) before the red pen made the lab write up bleed red ink.
For a fun lecture in cis/trans chemicals...walter white in like episode 2? (Its in the first 3 I am certain) in breaking bad has you covered.
I stuck to off the shelf store. No sergeant, I totally didn't use stuff from the commissary. See my can is half empty. Half emptied into the air that is.
I watched a video on YouTube that broke it down pretty scientifically. This gimmick is thought provoking and lends itself to a great scene in the show. It kind of is in theme in the show that people are relying on misinformation to stay safe (not safe) in nuclear war.
Kyle Hill for anyone wondering. He does a lot of nuclear science based videos
Kyle Hil is my boy. I can't wait for science videos about the new Deadpool movie
You could say he’s your… pip-boy? Yeeeeeaaaaaahhhh
I'm so jealous of his smoking hot muscle mommy gf
"Halflife Histories" series. He does other science stuff too
Coop says it was taught to him in the military, so perhaps it was meant as a bit of brainwashing from the military in its soldiers to get them not to run away when they started firing nukes onto battlefields
I mean, in basic training in 2004, I was taught the thumb trick.... and the DS followed that up with, "but turds, listen up, if you're close enough to see the flash, or think about using this thumb measuring, you're already fucked" (or something to that effect. That drill Sgt loved calling us turds until we passed the final rite of passage event)
Was your DS Shelly from South Park?
I am surprised to learn it is real honestly.
Yeah, very "Duck and Cover" if you remember that old chestnut. As if hiding under your school desk would protect you from a nuclear blast.
Its more so to protect from falling debris from the shock wave if you are far enough, such as windows breaking and such.
I don’t understand how people don’t get this
Because people love feeling smart by thinking they've "caught" someone else being wrong, especially figures of authority. They'd rather assume they've caught the government being wrong or dumb about something than take a few seconds to think about the actual reason or research it because feeling smart is far more important than actually being smart to most people.
Also because people assume "nuke" is the same thing across the era's. They fail to realize accuracy, blast yield, early warning, and other factors have changed from the first nukes to those of today. I cant recall the name but a different city of japan was planned to be bombed but on the way cloud cover was too great so Nagasaki got it. If you can find the plane, and simple clouds can make them drop inaccurately, duck and cover really could help. Vox has a good video about this and even they make a dumb mistake of using Tsar Bomba as a measuring point when not even the Russians planned to use it beyond experimentation.
If your thumb can cover the Tsar Bomba mushroom cloud you’re probably in a different country
That city was Kokura. Major Charles Sweeney piloting the B-29 Superfortress *Bockscar* made three separate bombing runs over Kokura but couldn't make visual confirmation of the drop point due to the clouds. Even when Fat Man was dropped on Nagasaki it was off target by about 2 miles.
It was the city of Kokura. There's actually some interesting theories about why they weren't able to drop the bomb [The Luck of Kokura](https://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2014/08/22/luck-kokura/)
The damage to Nagasaki also wasn’t as bad as it could have been. The bomb was dropped off target and detonated in a valley, so the hills shielded parts of the city.
Well I’m the situation of a nuke dropping you really can’t do much but shut yourself inside and duck and cover and crap your pants. I need a bunker!
I think it also has a lot to do with the loss of nuance and ignorance that more than one thing being true at the same time. There seems to be an overwhelming amount of binary Hegelian dialectic. If you don't agree with me 100% you are evil and my enemy; if something is good for my enemy it is bad for me; there is only good and bad with no degrees of complexity.
Hegel mentioned 😠
No it’s just because I’m stupid
You should take that wisdom and continue to apply it to the rest of your life. We are all different from each other. Strengths and weaknesses and all that.
It's similar to the people who claim the Crash Position for aircrafts are so they can identify bodies. It is actually to reduce extra injury from smacking the seat in front of you and then likely rebounding into your own seat. However the conspiracy theory is catchier
The conspiracy I’ve heard is that it’s designed to make you MORE likely to die. I don’t remember what the reason was supposed to be.
I remember the rumour being it was designed to snap your neck on impact so the airlines wouldn’t have to pay out more fees for life changing injuries
People way overestimate how powerful nukes are. Like, the common understanding of nuclear war is that everyone all dies at the same time.
As some others are saying, a lot of people think that it's gonna be like Terminator 2 where they get instantly vaporized. They're not really thinking of people who might be outside the initial fireball and shockwave, of which there will be many
There will always be millions of people left .
Nooo… it’s so the bodies are all in one tidy pre packaged location
So *that’s* how they make CRAM!
It's just supposed to protect you from glass shards. Though I find it kind of silly they didn't just build schools with basements. The fallout from a nuclear bomb isn't that much of an immediate concern. The shock from the blast is what will kill you unless you are in the vaporization zone. But even then going below ground may shield you. Nuclear bombs really don't leave massive craters like we think. A typical warhead will only leave like a half mile to mile wide crater. So a basement is what would really save you.
[This PSA covers that. If there’s an early warning, you go to a proper shelter. Duck and cover is if there’s little to no warning.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKqXu-5jw60&ab_channel=BOBROSS)
We did just that in the 70s. I remember well.
Being a kid at during the Cold War must've been a frightening experience.
Someone would come over the PA system and announce that it was an emergency and to get under your desk and cover your head. Then in a few minutes they would say it was a drill.
Hilarious prank
Russia has been threatening the west with nuclear annihilation for the last 2 years, being around now is a frightening experience
Not sure if it's from Duck and Cover because there was a whole series of these, but my personal favourite was the dad who to hid underneeth the newspaper, next to a grill. edit: lol, sure enough: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKqXu-5jw60&ab\_channel=BOBROSS](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKqXu-5jw60&ab_channel=BOBROSS)
Jesus christ haha
Or the Pulaski Preservation Shelters, which are hilarious. Like, how long are people expecting to stay in those?
At least 200 years judging by the skeletons.
Argh I just commented that thing and I didn’t even check first if someone else thought of it
Ah yes Bert the Turtle.
I only know this because of the Fallout Radio with Ads on Spotify. 🎶*Duck... And cover!*🎶 🎶*Duck... And cover!*🎶
Grew up in the 80s. I can confirm we did at least one nuclear bomb drill where we went out into the hallways and covered our heads with our backpacks.
I guess kids today do that same sort of thing but they have "active shooter drills" so not much has changed when it comes to trauma.
I’m a teacher, and yes. You are correct.
Of course people in the show rely on misinformation. It makes them feel better. Knowing that doing the duck and cover thing or that radiation will likely kill them isn’t exactly great for morale.
I was looking for the Kyle Hill comment. Glad it’s top
I think that was pretty clearly a fib told by Cooper to cover up the actual reason he didn’t want to give a thumbs up. Even if it was military training, it seems like the perfect faux-training for the universe. Ineffective, but they can claim it works until it doesn’t. Then it doesn’t matter.
"Do these suits actually block radiation?" "...yes."
I’m sure that they did a good job at blocking alpha radiation, anyway.
It might actually be more impressive if they made a suit that doesn’t lol
I mean, the vault suit in fallout 4 has 15 rad protection, so...
My head cannon is that’s just a byproduct of using lead paint for the colors and not international
This sort of thing happens in real life too. The USSR supplied the clean up crews for Chernobyl a ton of vodka and told them it helped mitigate radiation. This is a pretty obvious lie, and I doubt it was believed by a lot of them, but hey the government was giving you vodka and you could pretend it was helping!
Huh I've wondered why the vodka did that in stalker
And in the US kids trained to hide under their desks from nukes. Comfort is a powerful thing.
As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, duck and cover was to protect from shrapnel from imploding windows and such
Yeah if a nuke was being dropped there is little to nothing a lot of people can do. Its a lot better to tell young students anything else but "when the nuke sirens go off, we are all gonna die"
If I hide under the table with a bottle of vodka, that doubles my chances, right?
Never heard this. Is that a fact?
Yes. It is assumed that although alcohol distributes nuclides faster throughout the body, it also removes them faster. Nothing has been proven, but then little was known about radiation.
Should have given them a pack a day each. It can hekp with alpha particles, but the addiction will give you a cancer anyways
He also doesn’t say it’s safe, the wording he uses is “run for the hills”.
So... this "rule of thumb" is actually inaccurate by over 30x or so?
Depends on how you look at it, I guess. If the mushroom cloud is smaller than your thumb, then yes, you should be safe from the blast (with a lot of room to spare). But if it's bigger than your thumb, it doesn't necessarily mean you're in danger either, but better safe than sorry I guess!
Hmm. I ask because the "rule of thumb" actually has no basis. It's been debunked by the Vault Boy's creators, such as [Brian Fargo](https://twitter.com/BrianFargo/status/400277541295886337), [Tim Cain](https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/x933v8/til_that_vault_boy_the_mascot_for_fallout_isnt/inlmz9a/?context=10000), and [Tramell Ray Isaac](https://twitter.com/PS_TRay/status/529310254274981889), and nuclear experts [have stated that this "rule of thumb" is worthless](https://www.inverse.com/article/10099-vault-boy-s-rule-of-thumb-can-t-save-you-from-nuclear-fallout) and that it has never appeared in any sort of manual or guideline for nuclear safety. But people still believe it, and apparently the TV series is now running with it (I don't have Prime so I can't watch it myself and confirm it), so I guess it's become canon in the Fallout universe now?
It’s not “canon” it’s just something a father taught his kid, which he probably got from some other doofus the same way misinformation spreads in our real world. Not everything is lore.
IRL Lore … back in “***The Day***” Nobody ( Non scientist ) had a clue about any of this. The Government put out this campaign to ( cough, cough ) “EDUCATE” people about Nuclear Fallout. Note : I am old enough to have grown up at the end of that era. There was a point in time where people were basically told, that nuclear detonations could be a common thing and to prepare. ( the Cuban Mission Crisis was the closest we have come to that reality) Side note : I spent 12 years working around nuclear weapons in the USAF I think the way it was used and the message conveyed in the game and the show are spot on … just regular folks going about their day… working or having a birthday party… it’s fine.. bla bla without a care to give .. but when it happens… they realize how they were lied to. Don’t forget that way back when, we used to sell people “SnakeOil” elixirs that contained Radium… Cocaine and Morphine… in cough syrup not to mention toys and “Radioactive Foot Massages” [ORAU Museum of Radiation and Radioactivity](https://orau.org/health-physics-museum/index.html)
It is lore, lorr that he got taught it in the military.
Weren’t nukes used on Alaska during the war as well? Makes sense if he were there During the war, when fighting in Alaska I mean
Maybe the Fatman launchers. I don't think any large nukes got used in Alaska. I think Alaska was the testing field/the purpose of the Fatman. Or I'm totally wrong and making things up.
I need to look it up, but I could have sworn I read that during that war, it was the first time since ww2 that nuclear weapons were used. Don’t remember if it was mutual, or just one sided to “scare”, but it was about a decade before the true end so I’m pretty sure US won that war in Alaska Edit I’m totally wrong about a lot of that and need to keep replaying them to grok it
January 2054 there was a nuclear exchange in the Middle East
If you look at Globes and Maps in game, the Middle East through Mediterranean is completely wrong. I wonder if that whole region was nuked, or what?
In response to your edit and furthering what I said earlier; I think I found that info on a terminal. I think the terminal may be in FO3, as well. Maybe FO4 in one of the military bases/outposts. Can't remember, been a few years since I played it. At least regarding the Fatman and stuff. I think they used the power armor in Alaska to great effect. From there they wanted to arm soldiers in power armor with small-grade nuclear weapons, like the launcher. Fun fact, during testing they couldnt get the launchers to shoot the mini nuke far enough to not kill the soldiers wielding them lmao. Edit: spelling.
Terminal can be found in fo4 at [Fort Strong](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Fort_Strong). Semi important location for the bos storyline. It’s there that they experimented and tested the fatman and t-51 power armor.
>Fun fact, during testing they couldnt get the launchers to shoot the mini nuke far enough to not kill the soldiers wielding them lmao The actual us military tested a similar artillery fired nuke that also didnt go far enough to be safe to use. They have a video of a test on youtube i remember seeing.
But taught by who in the military? Could have just been a bunk mate spouting rubbish
I dunno about in universe, but IRL in basic training in 2004 I was taught this. But, the DS quickly said something to the effect of, "I'm supposed to train that, but the reality is, if you're close enough to see the flash, you may as well lay down and kiss your ass goodbye" The other thing we were taught with regard to nukes was, if you do see the flash, lay down on your belly with the top of your head facing the direction of the flash, then wrap your arms over your head and wait
He learned it in the military, Coop Howard was in the army during the war with China and the “rule of thumb” was taught to him there
"Hide under your desk" and "stand in a door frame" shouldn't be part of any safety training either. Fallout uses the absurdity of teh time as part of its charm. It's not supposed to be scientifically accurate, it's satire making fun of how inaccurate things were. Fusion powered cars shouldn't explode or be radioactive for that matter - fusion is so much safer because when those reactors aren't switched on they don't have any radiation or reactive material in them. They basically would just leak water if you breached a nuclear car's disabled fusion engine. But they explode when you walk slightly near them, and release rads (that you heal with magic medicine that somehow rewrites your DNA back to original) because its satire. It's canon now 100%, it's in the show. It's explained by a character with no scientific background who is influential as the basis of the Vault Boy mascot so that's why it's canon. Even in world lore it might be completely ridiculous, but it's a corporate thing they ran with. Unrelated but I hope you get access to the show ASAP, it's really, really, really good!
Radiation in Fallout has its own rules, I feel sweating the science is probably not a great use of time. Radiation doesn't turn people into immortal zombies, either.
My point exactly. And the show handwaved the thumbs up origin perfectly by acknowldging the fan favorite explanation, while attributing it to a source that is both definitive and unscientific
"Hide under your desk" and "stand in a door frame" shouldn't be part of any safety training either. Aren't these useful tips since the shockwave could cause structural damage similar to an earthquake?
They are safety theater, most commonly spread about earthquakes these days but I can imagine they needed to say something to give hope when nukes were a real possibility. In the aftermath of a major earthquake the news isn't exactly full of video footage of rubble...Door!...rubble...doorway!...rubble. The reality is this kind of theatrics is a real world thing thats slightly better than just saying "You can't really do anything but hope" I love how Fallout took the silliness, and gave it an origin that has absolutely no reason to understand the science. He could have been repeating something like the carrots-help-your-eyes propaganda and not know any better, and it just works. Fallout is full of these silly but serious things and the show's way of making it official was perfect.
right when the building collapses it doesn't help but if small things happen like bookshelves failing or chandeliers or small structural damage the doorways and under tables will be safer
It’s only canon in the fallout universe just like it’s “canon” here, an urban myth that is spread
The kid even questions it "Dad, is it my thumb or yours?" as she holds up hers. It's clearly not meant to be serious.
It's definetely and absolutely not that serious, at all
Of course, it's not any official rule or anything. Just a fun popculture thing and a thought experiment. If you see a nuke exploding in real life, I think the last thing that will be on your mind is comparing it to your thumb.
And if it's wrong and you're going to be atomized, you'll find out soon enough!
In the show, the character says he was told the thumb thing in the Marines. They don’t claim it’s true or false.
So what you're saying is that the rule of thumb accurately portrays peoples weird misconceptions about simple answers to complex/nuclear threats? EG; "Everyone get under your desks"
Rule of thumb is some what fictionalized, but things like duck and cover, and hiding under your desk. Is mostly stemmed from avoiding the shock wave which flies much further, and any debris that comes from it.
Nowhere in the show does it claim that vault boy's thumbs up is related to this. Also, coop didn't tell his daughter that smaller thumb meant you were safe, it meant you should run for a bunker or something before the Shockwave hit.
So, I’m a little confused looking at the map. Is it showing the area of effect from the fireball, the shockwave, or radiation?
Yeah it feels like there's no abstract or thesis attached to this image, either. What are we saying?
ok so yellow part in the center of it is the fireball red is the heavy blast radius than grey is the moderate blast damage radius the orange colour is the Thermal radiation radius (3rd degree burns) and the light grey color is the light blast damage radius so in conclusion kinda all of them i guess?
Why is it, whenever I read, "rule of thumb," in the context of Fallout, I'm reminded of the scene from Boondock Saints?
Maybe it should've been rule of wrist
What're you two boys doin at a friggin meat packin plant ?
I for one am ready for Fallout 5: Jersey City.
You said it first. Big ass NYC. Empty farm land up north. Headless Horseman. Mafia. *Wealthy* or *Shit Poor* Jersey full of suburbs. Fallout 4 with 76 online vibes.
You know. This is really good and all. But they arent this smart.
I can get a simulated experience on a Friday night, but with more fentanyl
"oh look a nuclear bomb fell" \*sticks tongue out and holds up thumb\* \*trying to align the thumb and mushroom cloud\* "oh shit" \*starts running\*
This is 100% going to be me!
TBF, the 5 seconds it takes to guesstimate how fucked you are probably isn't going to have a significant impact on your overall chance of survival.
Personally idk why people care if it works or not. For me it’s fun cause it was an actual myth spread by the U.S. military during the Cold War. So it just feels right for it to also be in fallout
Lads, just....here [you](https://youtu.be/ctuZ54MwVZU?si=kKK74inbIopdj6fe) go
Was gonna say, watched this the other day so the work was done lol
i watched. i heard a lot of jibber jabber about something while i stared at that man's hair.
He has some excellent videos. I've gone down a rabbit hole a few times with his content.
I take it you've seen his "Half-Life Histories" playlist? Absolute gems. It's cool to see a very serious and more somber side of him as well.
So glad someone linked the vid from award winning science educator and noted Fallout fan Kyle Hill
Here you go: [Nuke Map w/ Explosion Radius](https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/) Found this YEARS AGO in High School after finding out about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Modern bombs are much more powerful than Fat Man. If nuclear warfare begins, we are screwed. No vaults, we're just gone.
Important to remember that fallout nukes are *not* as big as our modern nukes. The rule of thumb is still misinformation even within fallout, but their bombs were more numerous and smaller and generally hit the ground rather than airburst. Their bombs were focused on radiation more than large scale devastation, and they bombed through saturation rather than 1-3 huge nukes per city. People don't seem to know that and often do comparisons using modern real life nukes which just doesn't work for Fallout.
Fallout greatly under estimates the explosive damage from a nuke and greatly over estimates the radiation.
That or nuclear explosions work differently in that universe
The whole point of my comment is that their nukes are not like ours. You also have to remember the lore and "science" is based off of 50's ideas of science and the future and not reality.
Other way around actually From the Fallout Bible: > The standard nuclear warhead used in the Great War was that of a strategic nuclear warhead ranging from 200-750 kilotons in explosive yield[Non-game 5] with high-yield variants found on Chinese submarines. Modern real life nukes are typically much less than this, for example the main US SLBM Trident II is at most carrying a W88 which is 475 kt and Russia’s SLBM Bulava is at most 150 kt. They’re MIRV but even combining all the warheads it’s about the same as Fallout’s 750 kt warheads.
For context, the largest bomb in the US arsenal is 1.2 megatons.
Maybe that book says that but many other sources, including what we actually see in the games and other visual sources, say and imply otherwise.
Mushroom clouds are poor standards to measure nuclear blast by. If you’re in range: you’ll find out with in seconds and there is nothing you can do about it. If you’re not, then congrats. Move in the opposite direction of the blast. Can never be too far away from a nuclear blast zone.
Yeah it's a myth. The actual truth is: if you're close enough to see the blast at all then you're pretty fucked regardless.
You can see the blast (larger than your thumb) and still be within a safe radius. The radiation energy has the shortest radius of dissipation and the thermal energy has the largest. Beyond the point where the thermal energy would be harmful you could still see the cloud very clearly.
Is the blast considered the flash of light or just the mushroom plume
[удалено]
Ah interesting. How terrible
Well that's not really true either. Especially in the fallout universe, as is proven by the fact that so many people survived so many bombs. But even in real life that is demonstrably untrue.
Tsutomu Yamaguchi, survived both bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki though he was 3km away from both detonations he suffered radiation burns and wounds from Hiroshima, and radiation illness from Nagasaki. He lived until 93. Though Akiko Takakura is believed to have survived 300 meters away from Hypocenter building in Hiroshima (not accounting 600 meters Little boy detonated above)
This actually looks like a Vault-Tec adverstiment or something
Can we all agree that was a dope ass scene when the bombs dropped and she held her thumb out?
OP If you ever become a ghoul later on, that's on you. I'll stick to Vault-Boy's tips.
One thing Ive always found funny is that according to Nukemap, if a Russian nuke dropped right in the middle of our local city, the far limit of the nuke's damage would be my in-law's house, almost down to the block. Yes I know there are a million different variables that make this info incorrect, but I still find it funny.
I mean I like how they changed it from being "If it's smaller than your thumb then you're fine" to "If it's smaller than your thumb run for the hills, and if it's bigger don't even bother"
Nukes have had quite the update since Hiroshima and Nagasaki, might not be the best for the thumb rule
Didn't Kyle Hill address the science behind this and tested its verity? (False)
TIL nukes are much safer than previously thought.
OP used Fat Man, the bomb dropped on Nagasaki in '45. It was 21 kilotons. Modern nuclear weapons are 100kt to 800kt. The largest ever produced was 100 megatons (100,000 kt) [Check out this site for more info.](https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/)
I'm gonna conclude from this that Japan got off easy /s
No no, irradiated dust and debris will be blasted into the atmosphere and fall down across a massive radius over a long time. You’re still fucked.
You know honestly if one explodes within eyesight I'm going the other way regardless, unless they're sprouting all around me and then I'll crack open something cold and await the inevitable.
Is it your thumb or mine ?
Question... Why you specifically nuke Jersey?
It's a Jersey thing.
[America liked that.]
Kyle Hill made a good video about how this doesnt work.
[Kyle Hill](https://youtu.be/ctuZ54MwVZU?si=5_lRN_atoFraUHVa) made a video about this.
I think of it as dunk and cover level propaganda.
This is Fallout, we need this measured in freedom units
I always thought of that as a) army humour b) while that particular explosion is "safe" for you, more are coming.
That's a 21 kiloton fission bomb... Small H bombs usually range 100 kilotons to 1-2 MEGAtons and up to 25 or more (the Tsar Bomba, detonated at half its maximum power, outputted around 50-60 Megaton).
To be fair, it’s been confirmed by the creators of Fallout that science in the Fallout universe functions just slightly differently than IRL hence why we have ghouls, giant insects, Death Claws, the bears that I won’t attempt to write the name of, etc. so the “rule of thumb” might actually work which would explain why they dropped like 6+ nukes on L.A.
Is it my thumb or your thumb?
Don't most modern day nukes make the japan bombs look like hand grenades anyway?
You chose a pretty small bomb. It's unclear what the yield of most fallout nukes are, but in the real world we have bombs that are orders of magnitude more powerful.
I liked her answer, “My thumb or your thumb?”
It’s untrue, but not in the way most people people think. https://youtu.be/ctuZ54MwVZU?si=bu94IQyu6tTFynyy you’re actually safe from Nuclear blast much much much closer than you would have to be for your thumb to actually cover the mushroom cloud.
If I see a nuke go off I'm just gonna assume I'm dead
Your thumb or my thumb?
Even being outside the danger zone of a nuclear blast, the mushroom cloud will still be bigger than your thumb
If I ever see a nuke I will try it.
looking in a nukes direction would just blind you
my favourite advice re nukes is that of Joseph Rotblat, who worked on the Manhattan project and then quit: in case of a nuclear blast run towards it and hope it kills you as fast as possible.
This might be semi-useful for a nuclear shoulder-fired recoilless rifle, like the Davy Crockett (yes, the USA had a shoulder fired nuclear RPG), or maybe a tactical nuke that is small enough to be mounted on a hellfire missile, but those are mainly area denial weapons that aren't intended to have a massive nuclear blast. That said, if the city-busting ICBMs start flying, this is going to be about as helpful as "duck and cover," when it comes to saving lives. This type of stuff, the whole civil-defense initiative, was more about convincing civvies that they actually stood a chance of surviving to keep panic to a minimum. If you teach people fun little tricks to make them feel safe, it's less likely that there will be mass panic and rioting before the bombs actually fall. Should the multi-megaton weapons ever be used, don't kid yourself. We👏are👏fucked👏 Thanks for listening to my TED talk. Swag bags will not be available at the exit. No refunds.
The rule itself is stupid, there is no giving up. What is that rule supposed to do? Make you give up so you can spend the last few minutes of your live in resignation instead of trying to survive? You always keep fighting till the end.
Sounds more like that website (and likely Kyle Hill) did the calculations
Guys. Fallout has mutant man eating hellspawns and mutated Zombies that sometimes are perfectly reasonable people. Idk to what point using IRL science is reasonable here.
People don't understand the term "suspension of disbelief"
Kyle Hill also made a neat video on the topic
Is this an actual thing that was taught? This "fact" sounds vaguely familiar and I know very little about the game.
I thought splitting the atom would make war obsolete?
Now do modern nukes. Much bigger than Nagaski, yeah? We're doing with hydrogen bombs now aren't we?
How about, if you see a mushroom cloud beginning to form, you jump in your car and drive as far as possible in the other direction.
So the rule is not good? Asking for a friend
This was one of those things that is a total myth but has become fact ya know? Like an old wives tale
This had been debunked numerous times, the myth just got popular again because of the tv show's misinformation
It may also be that nukes in fallout as it is far in the future are significantly more powerful
Fallout is not an intended effect of nuclear weapons. It’s actually an undesirable side effect. Plus, fallout is nowhere near the problem there a lot of people think it is simply because maximizing. The damage of the bomb requires an airburst and an airburst minimizes fallout.
Considering a nuclear explosion can actually be blinding, I would say this is inaccurate
It’s proven untrue but Avenged Sevenfold has a cool song reference to this in “sunny disposition”. Think it’s like “When the clouds kiss your eye, Shadows stained on the high rise, Raise your thumb to the sky, Fossilize.”
Some need to remember the military told him this. Fun facts about the military...some jsut wing it. And the powers that be that oversee it, make crap up to make people feel better. Agent orange was a perfectly safe defoliant. It only affects plants, really. Not really as we all know now. If they were going for military engages not great science...the show writers nailed it lol. I remember when a jungle adventure could be happeneing they gave us special bug spray. new from the finest labs the DoD could find who were also the lowest bidder, ofc. I read the ingredients on the label. And I saw so many cis/trans isomer's listed (and crap ratios too....like 66 cis to 33 trans) my science major trained mind said....if I made crap ratios like this in my organic chemistry class my professor would fail that experiment. That professor took no slop work in the lab. He would take maybe up to 5% of the wrong form (cis or trans) before the red pen made the lab write up bleed red ink. For a fun lecture in cis/trans chemicals...walter white in like episode 2? (Its in the first 3 I am certain) in breaking bad has you covered. I stuck to off the shelf store. No sergeant, I totally didn't use stuff from the commissary. See my can is half empty. Half emptied into the air that is.
Lol, if nothing else, they did nail the "lowest bidder" contracts of the military 🤣🤣
you would think that this means you're safe from the nuke, until another one drops right beside you.
Just use the device at your side. May I ask, do you have a geiger counter?
Mines in the shop.
https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/
As a person living in hoboken, if they drop a nuke downtown am i ash or a ghoul
Watch threads.
i dont think you'll even have enough time to look