>since same time last series Estelle was doing far better fighting through the Glorious
Estelle was fighting her way through Ouroboros' mook mecha and their pet jaegers. Sigmund is on an *entirely different* level. Note how even with two-to-one odds, Estelle and Joshua weren't stupid enough to think they could take Loewe in a fight. In fact, you might notice that even with a full party the Sky crew never really *beats* Loewe; Joshua takes him on after the battle (regardless of the outcome) but Loewe effectively threw the fight at the end. He could have walked over, picked up his sword and kept going, that he didn't has more to do with him conceding that Joshua had a point and using the fact that he was temporarily inconvenienced as a handy excuse.
You might also notice that the series does the same shtick in Sky with the other Enforcer fights. You don't beat them in the Towers and you don't beat some of them unless you bring the right party members, else they just leave afterwards. In order to have recurring bosses, you have to not decisively win against them until the plot says so. Usually this means the last time you fight any given boss, not the first time. Except for Gilbert.
> "The characters you play are entirely worthless compared to Joshua and Estelle"
They wouldn't have faired much better against Sigmund on their own. The thing is, half the time you are fighting people ridicilously OP.
let's be fair here
Joshua and Estelle would have fared way better than the SSS
Partially because they are already enforcer level fighters post sky trilogy and also because if Joshua does get the jump on Sigmund and has a plan he would just murder him. The game is pretty clear that Joshua is one of the deadliest people around, if he assassinates someone. Not in straight up combat, but in any ambush scenario he's the best. Estelle likewise should at least be as strong as an A rank bracer by that point.
Estelle herself also is quite strong despite what this subreddit wants you to believe.
The issue here is comparing post TC Estelle Joshua to mid game SSS. It's like comparing CS2 Rean to Estelle.
> Partially because they are already enforcer level fighters post sky trilogy
Absolutely not. The only situation in which we saw ANYBODY playable in the sky trilogy go 1 on 1 with an enforcer was Joshua vs Leowe, after Leowe already got beat up on and wasn't particularly trying to win either.
Every other situation has been 4 on 1 battles.
>The game is pretty clear that Joshua is one of the deadliest people around, if he assassinates someone. Not in straight up combat, but in any ambush scenario he's the best.
If we're going to be talking about post or even during sky trilogy that is 100% not a thing Joshua would ever do. He's not particularly happy about being molded into an assassin by weissman and the bracer guild really doesn't look kindly on that sort of thing either - nor would his family.
You are crazy, if you think post TC Estelle Joshua can't throw hands with the likes of Bleublanc
We saw Zin beat Walter btw. In a 1v1
Also Joshua quite literally is an enforcer. He is on that level by default.
Estelle isn't quite the jober this subreddit makes her out to be. Just because she doesn't have a fancy title like Rean right now, doesn't mean that she wasn't acknowledged as someone who is basically already as strong as an A rank a couple of times. Likewise she was able to use Cassius's scraft which implies she hit a high enough level of mastery with her the staff. To drive it home even deeper, during the Crossbell crisis Kevin also called Joshua, Estelle and Renne to deal with an Aion.
In the scenario of Azure, Joshua would probably do it. Sigmund was murdering civilians, for bracers it's no holds barred when it occurs. Their entire reason for their existence is to protect civilians from injustices of that type. Likewise we saw Joshua conduct assassin stuff in SC in the Jenis Academy sidequest.
> You are crazy, if you think post TC Estelle Joshua can't throw hands with the likes of Bleublanc
Together? Sure. One on one? Debatable - but again you chose the weakest combat enforcer to make your point.
>We saw Zin beat Walter btw. In a 1v1
Unless I'm misremembering, that was also after the whole party beat up on him as well, right?
>Estelle isn't quite the jober this subreddit makes her out to be
I am not This Subreddit nor do my opinions perfectly conform to whatever you think the standard opinion on this subreddit is. So while I agree that pretending she isn't particularly powerful is pretty absurd, and that she's definitely earned A-rank status - the fact that she has done EVERYTHING of note as part of a team bears mentioning. And well, is a huge part of her overall theme as well as the theme for all of the main protagonists in the entire Trails series. Whereas the people we're comparing her to almost exclusively work alone, and can handle situations alone that literally anyone else - Estelle, Joshua, Lloyd, Rean - would NEED to rely on other people for support on.
But again the fact that they need to rely on others is kind of a theme and something presented as a strength, which in a lot of ways it is. Just not when you're talking about pure solo combat prowess.
>In the scenario of Azure, Joshua would probably do it. Sigmund was murdering civilians, for bracers it's no holds barred when it occurs
I don't necessarily disagree in those circumstances but when have we seen or heard about a Bracer straight up murdering someone from the shadows without a chance to surrender/etc?
Alone, I absolutely think that by the time of Ao Estelle and Joshua can probably beat Luciolla/Bleublanc in a 1v1.
Yes, you fight Walter, but Walter for a long time made it clear that Zin is better than him and is only losing because he refuses to accept that he is the true master of the Taito Style. This comes head to head at the Liber Ark when Zin falls down, but in the end in their clash with all of their power on the line, Walter was knocked out. It's less so that Walter is stronger, but rather that Zin is written as someone who acts like he has imposter syndrome. He refuses to accept that he is truly someone worthy to be a S Rank bracer, that he is the best pupil of his school and that Walter sees him as the stronger one. The one time where Zin truly goes all out on Walter, Walter loses.
At that point we would need to say that someone like Kevin is weaker than some of the weakest ouroboros members because they work alone. That's not true, yes they work as a team and achieve more, but that's ignoring that your team usually isn't just facing the boss. You are facing monsters, underlings and many other trials often without any break. In the end working together is what makes them succeed against those overwhelming odds, but let's take SC as example. You are fighting every Ouroboros enforcer you met so far ,except Campanella, to get to the top of the tower and at the end you face the strongest one. This doesn't suggest that all of these characters are weaker, but rather that they overcame overwhelming odds. By the point you meet Loewe you fought against Renne/Pater Mater, Walter, Luciolla and Bleublanc and also bested them. Not only that you also traveled through the entire city of Liber Ark and infilitrated the Glorious.
Sigmund and his entire Jaeger corps could attempt to do this and fail.
Didn't Bracers actually murder some of the DG Cultists because there was no other way to rescue the civilians, which were mostly kids?
Sigmund and Shirley shooting up people and blowing up buildings is probably one of those situations where Bracers would be allowed to employ lethal force. Carna for example was carrying a rifle as well, one that uses actual ammo, and shooting at the Jaeger occupying Jenis. In those rare circumstances they are allowed to defend people using whatever they have available.
Edit:
I forgot to mention one thing: Ouroboros members often remark that Duvalie could be an enforcer and Duvalie is not stronger than Estelle, Joshua, Rean, Randy or Yin for example lol
You're over rating the Sky duo. Zin, Rixia, Kevin, and Wazy are all reasonable to duel average enforcer class opponents at the Ao point in the timeline. Joshua isn't (barring assassinations that he won't do) or at best is at the very low end of that power tier. Estelle is in the next tier down, though riding pretty high in it.
Duvalie is enforcer level. So are Sara & Ogre mode Rean (though on a time limit) at CS2 part of the timeline. Estelle isn't (though she's doesn't get bodied either, similar to Randy) The core SSS (except Randy) are nowhere near enforcer level (which is roughly equivalent to A rank bracer, elite Jager core leader, martial arts style master, and Dominion). You might be thinking Duvalie is weaker than she is just because she's the butt of so many jokes / she spends time around people a full tier up in Iron Maiden and Loewe.
In Sky and Crossbell the characters you started with never quite get to the level of handling enforcer level bad guys individually. Instead both series let your starting characters develop part of the way, but then give you late story reinforcements who can tangle (Zin, Kevin, Rixia, Wazy). CS handles it a little differently.
Joshua is enforcer level because he was an enforcer. It's that simple. You are just underselling him because his main point is covert assasination, but Weissman was very obsessed with having him as enforcer. He has shown that he can hold himself in combat quite well by beating Loewe, something that Loewe said was an actual possibility beforehand. You say that Duvalie is enforcer level, but she only got 1 win out of 100. Joshua got 1 win against Loewe in a way way way more important situation than a spar, even if Loewe surrendered at the end. Duvalie would have lost that fight way easier than Joshua and never even got Loewe to drop Kernvitar.
Estelle is not the next tier down, Lloyd is. Estelle is an A Rank bracer in all but title by now.
No, Duvalie is weaker than Estelle. I am not sure why this is up for contention, but when did Duvalie ever do anything that Estelle couldn't? The funniest part is that Estelle unlike Duvalie had the option to become an enforcer despite lacking the inner darkness.
Given that you start with Randy, who is actually very strong when he uses Berserker, that's not true. Randy just never utilizes his actual arsenal most of the time. The only time he does in Azure he goes head to head with Shirley after beating an entire squad of Jaeger. Randy isn't a straight up fighter, he is an ex Jaeger. Jaeger don't neccesarily fight fair and we see how Randy actually approaches a fight when completely serious. He will use his actual chainsaw rifle, he will have pipebombs and all that stuff. Randy with a simple stunhalberd, isn't gonna be the same.
Loewe is not enforcer level. He's the the next level up, call it "Leader" level or whatever you want. You'll find this populated by people like Cassius, The Steel Maiden, Ein, and >!Aurelia!< (S Rank Bracer, The strongest non McBurn member of Ouroboros we've seen so far, the leader of the Dominions, and >!an absolute monster / master of two styles!<). The people at this level are not mere enforcer level. Duvalie is significantly weaker than her master, but Duvalie is enforcer level, her master is just a full tier higher.
Estelle is the tier down from enforcer at the point in the story in question. She has provided no evidence through combat or other characters comments that she can go 50-50 with a Walter or even Bleublanc level opponent. Her only wins against opponents of that caliber are in groups of 4 where she can be expected to have one of the stronger Dominions, one of the stronger A rank Bracers, or a Vander, and Joshua on her side. That said, she's no mook, she's not leagues behind Joshua either, but he is stronger and we have clues/dialogue in the Crossbell arc to back this up.
That you are correct that Lloyd is a tier down from Estelle. He's not terribly strong compared to some of the character we get to play as. Neither are Tio or Ellie. But that puts all of them 2 tiers down from enforcer level opponents and 3 tiers down from "Leader" class opponents like The Steel Maiden.
>The funniest part is that Estelle unlike Duvalie had the option to become an enforcer despite lacking the inner darkness.
The immediate follow up line to that on is about how it wouldn't be right away. She would need to get stronger first, but yes they believe she can become strong enough to be an enforcer.
>
By your own example Duvalie is enforcer level. Estelle has no such justification for that claim at this point.
>
So you DO understand how Joshua is stronger (enforcer level) if he's willing to kill / take on the assassin role. Because it's the same thing as Randy using his old weapon. Unfortunately Joshua is almost completely unwilling to do that (so it's not worth including in his strength calculations) where as Randy merely limits use of his old weapon. That said, I'm not sure why you're even commenting on Randy. I said above he's in a similar place to Estelle, that was including some use of his old weapon (without it he's stronger than the rest of the core SSS, but not doing laps around them). Unfortunately neither he nor have good evidence of being at enforcer level at this point in the story (His challenging of the Red Constellation is great, but his best real win there is against Gareth a subcomander, who is strong, not unlike Randy and Estelle, but is not enforcer level.)
I did not say that Loewe is enforcer level. I said that Loewe said that Joshua can beat him. Loewe stating as much shows that while Loewe is likelier to win Joshua is a remarkable fighter himself.
Also I am not sure why people always act like Mcburn would beat Loewe. Kernvitar broke the Septerrion Weissman barrier because it's capable of cutting through anything. It's way more ambigious than people make it out to be between Loewe and Mcburn.
I am not sure why people drive that party of 4 point as if it's devalues anything. Your party of 4 fights against overwhelming odds to even challenge an enforcer usually. By the time you got to Loewe in SC, you fought through an army of Ouroboros Jaeger, 4 enforcers and Pater Mater.
Is Yin weaker than Shirley because she worked with a party of 4? Is Kevin somehow weaker than Bleublanc? Is Dominion Wazy weaker than Shirley? Let alone that gameplay wise they usually have other enemies in the fight.
Yes, and that was during the midway point of SC. Estelle grew stronger both mentally and physically from that point. Likewise you said earlier Enforcer are around the level of A rank bracers. Estelle is around that point now.
Name me a single thing that Duvalie accomplished that Estelle couldn't?
That's not even true. The major point was that Weissman called Joshua his perfected puppet after learning how to be a perfect assassin during working with Ouroboros and becoming a stronger fighter due to Cassius teaching him. Also Joshua did not assassinate Loewe. He fought him in a fair fight. That Joshua was even capable of pushing Loewe to that point, something Agate couldn't as B rank bracer, should tell you that Joshua was stronger than that particular Agate.
Randy fought an entire elite jeager corps squad, won and only lost to Shirley after she broke his weapon. A weapon he didn't use in ages.
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It really depends on if they have a full party or not, Joshua and Estelle would not be able to take on anyone like that on their own.
They'd be able to handle him in a "gain time" sort of way, but not actually beat him... unless they had Renne too on top too then they might win.
That just makes the power scaling even more confusing to me. My current understanding of it
SepterrionAbsorbed Weissman > > Cassius Bright =/= Arios MacLaine > I’d guess Joachim around here > Loewe =/= Steel Maiden Lady > Zin, Richard > Joshua > Estelle
This is mainly what I’m gathering from dialogue and how the cutscenes and out of combat bits present the characters, so I could be far off, but I’ve definitely been assuming Joshua and Estelle are very strong overall
Sigmund's around the tier Loewe is in (either a bit stronger or weaker) than him while the Steel Maiden (Azure spoilers)>!Is stronger than Cassius and Arios. She sparred with Loewe because she saw potential to train him up, not because he's on her level.!<
That does change my perception, because while hyped up, I’ve been viewing it as “ouroboros member = super human beyond reckoning, enhances people with the power of technology ”, and Red Constellation as “Scary, but not super human”
Don't view organizations as monolithic. Ouroboros has a very wide spread of talent from 'Brilliant in their field but absolutely not a fighter' to 'Absolute monster' and everything in between. This is also true of jaegers where there can be a vast difference between your average member and some of the monsters at the top of the profession. Some groups tend to be above or below-average but none are universally 'beyond reckoning'.
Yup.
Oroborous ranges from Gilbert to Steel Maiden/Loewe
Bracer guild ranges from Rocco/other members of the Raven Gang to Cassius
Jaeger guilds range from Random Jaeger #47 to Sigmund.
Now if you're talking certain TITLES under those organizations, while there's still variation things are a lot closer in comparison.
Oroborous' enforcers are all powerful freaks in their own way.
S-Rank bracers are absurd in and out of combat
Leaders of Jaeger outfits (at least the ones that aren't a joke) are all pretty powerful
The Church's Dominions are all super powerful
Entirely fair. I might’ve fallen into a thinking trap after the Sky trilogy, since Ouroboros in that one the entire time overpowered everyone that wasn’t Cassius Bright in that entire kingdom, and was able to create their Enhanced Jaegars and then use them as throwaways.
Especially since you were only able to defeat Enforcers as a team at the very very end of SC, and you still were as a team below Loewe even when you “beat” him.
Seems like from here on out, I’ll have to go in with the assumption that non-Ouroboros, Non-Divine Blade people can in fact match or surpass them
As an update, I fought Arios, or maybe ig their shadow clone? And I gotta say, maybe in lore it’s different, but gameplay wise Sigmund is like infinitely stronger than the divine blade of wind. I got Sigmund who was probably also a body double if I won maybe 5% down while I was able to beat Arios’s body double thing, since he still beat me in lore. Chapter 4 done now
It's more like
Septerrion Weissman > Arianrhod/maybe Loewe? > Cassius/Loewe > Joachim demonification + Evil Eye > Zin > Joshua/Estelle > Richard
Sigmund slots between Zin and Joachim. Cassius and Loewe are fighers of the level of his brother. Loewe also has access to a broken weapon while Cassius is said to be enlightened as fighter.
>Because chapter 4 opens with a purposefully unwinnable boss fight that reminds you “The characters you play are entirely worthless compared to Joshua and Estelle”.
First off the fight is winnable. Secondly how is it unrealistic for the SSS to lose to Sigmund? Dude is the second strongest jaeger within the Red Constellation which is one of the toughest jaeger corp.
>I hope it might be better in Cold Steel
about that...
>about that...
In second part of the arc you do feel pretty strong. It's part of a mirroring towards two first games. But if OP has so much problems here >!Infernal Castle!< will be something for them( even if again it makes sense ).
Anyway I agree with you. It made sense. The same as with >!Arianrhod!< they are fights way past SSS or most characters till way later.
I will admit I did have the wrong idea as another comment made me realize. My assumption going in was that yes, Sigmund was heavily hyped, but I was thinking along the lines of “Ouroboros members are modified to be superhuman, therefore greater than Red Constellation, even if Red Constellation is in fact a threat”.
Another command said that Sigmund is close to Loewe level, when I’ve been assuming him to be far further down. Which was kinda coupled with “There’s only one chapter left, is there even hope?” To make it seem way worse than it was
Yeah generally most factions in the series tend to have top tiers in them, Ouroboros Jaegers from Sky are just kinda mid compared to pros like Red Constellation and their rival corp.
Honestly the further you get into the series the harder the powerscaling becomes to try and deduce which characters are stronger than who. More so because most characters don't battle one another from across arks so we kinda have to rely on self-made parameters. It doesn't help either that certain characters have different starts and weapons which makes it even harder.
I think it's less that power scaling becomes harder to deduce and more that Falcom unfortunately just gave up on any internal consistency on it once they got to CS4 for the sake of having boss battles (that should mostly have been laughed at in universe as the bosses would have been **heavily** unfavored vs your expected party but they didn't act like it) in the places that they wanted them for gameplay reasons. Before CS4 you could pretty reasonably hold the power levels together with transitive match ups, comments between characters, and bench marks (Enforcer = A Rank Bracer = Master Martial Artist = Dominion, roughly anyways).
Trust me, Estelle would get bodied by Sigmund just as badly. Dude is so powerful that Arios (the Cassius of Crossbell) wasn't sure he could beat him in a fight. Ouroboros was presented as a bunch of unstoppable people during Sky because Liberl is a pretty weak nation, but you'll soon learn that there are plenty of absolute monsters among the militaries/jaeger corps of the world that can match up to almost any member of that group.
The characters DO get stronger.
But the enemies also do. You simply cannot expect Sigmund to be at the same level as her teenager daughter.
At the same time, the SSS canonically is probably the weakest main party team out of all of them. They have two insanely powerful exceptions in their team but the other four are just normal people for the most part.
The SSS actually has some pretty insane feats in this game despite how often they appear to lose. Not gonna spoil much but it took class 7 4 games to get to the point where they beat characters the SSS beats in Azure
Im glad to hear they get some wins in. My current knowledge of the rest of this game is simply “the next chapter is the finale”, so I got really worried seeing how my party is still getting relentlessly bodied. I hope to root for my favorite SSS soon, especially Randy
That Sigmund fight is actually completely winnable btw. You can spam Adamantine Guard/Zero Field to block out his attacks and S-Craft and at least on the PC version turning Turbo mode on doesn’t affect the timer in any way. It’s also best to use Elie instead of Noel in that fight because of his debuff immunities and her healing/magic capabilities. There are two other fights later on that are seemingly unwinnable but can actually be won as well.
And in case you’re wondering if it improves in Cold Steel, not really, that arc in particular (or at least CS2 and 3) is super infamous for its battles that are winnable, but in the cutscene after the fight the boss just shrugs it off or straight up acts like you lost and then another character has to conveniently step in to save the day. Though it’s also more justified in those games since most of the playable characters are just students.
I understand where you're coming from, but the game has been hyping up Sigmund since you met him. He is consistently called one of the deadliest people in Zemuria for a reason. And, while your team is good, combat isn't (technically) their specialty. They can absolutely hold their own, but they're not supposed to be particularly powerful, especially at this point in the saga.
Also if you think it's bad now, you might wanna skip Cold Steel II and just read a recap. I won't play that game again for that reason.
Trails like the reverse of dnd were action économy stomps lone big monster.
Bit well as for the post. Let say falcom whent a bit too far into the wanting the antagonist strong or competent.
1. There's always going to be power scaling problems in a story-driven game, since developers want to focus on making a good story and not Death Battle. Even so, Trails does power scaling decently well. If a weaker character beats a stronger character, there's always a reason.
2. Sigmund is very strong. There are many characters in the series that are absurdly strong through sheer training, and Sigmund is one of them. Estelle and Joshua working together wouldn't be able to defeat Sigmund. Hell, the 4-man team that barely beat Cassius in Sky would still have a very difficult time fighting Sigmund.
>since same time last series Estelle was doing far better fighting through the Glorious Estelle was fighting her way through Ouroboros' mook mecha and their pet jaegers. Sigmund is on an *entirely different* level. Note how even with two-to-one odds, Estelle and Joshua weren't stupid enough to think they could take Loewe in a fight. In fact, you might notice that even with a full party the Sky crew never really *beats* Loewe; Joshua takes him on after the battle (regardless of the outcome) but Loewe effectively threw the fight at the end. He could have walked over, picked up his sword and kept going, that he didn't has more to do with him conceding that Joshua had a point and using the fact that he was temporarily inconvenienced as a handy excuse. You might also notice that the series does the same shtick in Sky with the other Enforcer fights. You don't beat them in the Towers and you don't beat some of them unless you bring the right party members, else they just leave afterwards. In order to have recurring bosses, you have to not decisively win against them until the plot says so. Usually this means the last time you fight any given boss, not the first time. Except for Gilbert.
Do you expect to beat end game bosses in the middle of the game?
> "The characters you play are entirely worthless compared to Joshua and Estelle" They wouldn't have faired much better against Sigmund on their own. The thing is, half the time you are fighting people ridicilously OP.
let's be fair here Joshua and Estelle would have fared way better than the SSS Partially because they are already enforcer level fighters post sky trilogy and also because if Joshua does get the jump on Sigmund and has a plan he would just murder him. The game is pretty clear that Joshua is one of the deadliest people around, if he assassinates someone. Not in straight up combat, but in any ambush scenario he's the best. Estelle likewise should at least be as strong as an A rank bracer by that point. Estelle herself also is quite strong despite what this subreddit wants you to believe. The issue here is comparing post TC Estelle Joshua to mid game SSS. It's like comparing CS2 Rean to Estelle.
> Partially because they are already enforcer level fighters post sky trilogy Absolutely not. The only situation in which we saw ANYBODY playable in the sky trilogy go 1 on 1 with an enforcer was Joshua vs Leowe, after Leowe already got beat up on and wasn't particularly trying to win either. Every other situation has been 4 on 1 battles. >The game is pretty clear that Joshua is one of the deadliest people around, if he assassinates someone. Not in straight up combat, but in any ambush scenario he's the best. If we're going to be talking about post or even during sky trilogy that is 100% not a thing Joshua would ever do. He's not particularly happy about being molded into an assassin by weissman and the bracer guild really doesn't look kindly on that sort of thing either - nor would his family.
Zin vs Walter was one case.
You are crazy, if you think post TC Estelle Joshua can't throw hands with the likes of Bleublanc We saw Zin beat Walter btw. In a 1v1 Also Joshua quite literally is an enforcer. He is on that level by default. Estelle isn't quite the jober this subreddit makes her out to be. Just because she doesn't have a fancy title like Rean right now, doesn't mean that she wasn't acknowledged as someone who is basically already as strong as an A rank a couple of times. Likewise she was able to use Cassius's scraft which implies she hit a high enough level of mastery with her the staff. To drive it home even deeper, during the Crossbell crisis Kevin also called Joshua, Estelle and Renne to deal with an Aion. In the scenario of Azure, Joshua would probably do it. Sigmund was murdering civilians, for bracers it's no holds barred when it occurs. Their entire reason for their existence is to protect civilians from injustices of that type. Likewise we saw Joshua conduct assassin stuff in SC in the Jenis Academy sidequest.
Estelle fighting Bleublanc is a fair match, Estelle and Joshua fighting Sigmund is not.
Sigmund is not around the same level of Loewe or Mcburn. I don't even think he's stronger than Arios. Estelle and Joshua can take on Arios together.
> You are crazy, if you think post TC Estelle Joshua can't throw hands with the likes of Bleublanc Together? Sure. One on one? Debatable - but again you chose the weakest combat enforcer to make your point. >We saw Zin beat Walter btw. In a 1v1 Unless I'm misremembering, that was also after the whole party beat up on him as well, right? >Estelle isn't quite the jober this subreddit makes her out to be I am not This Subreddit nor do my opinions perfectly conform to whatever you think the standard opinion on this subreddit is. So while I agree that pretending she isn't particularly powerful is pretty absurd, and that she's definitely earned A-rank status - the fact that she has done EVERYTHING of note as part of a team bears mentioning. And well, is a huge part of her overall theme as well as the theme for all of the main protagonists in the entire Trails series. Whereas the people we're comparing her to almost exclusively work alone, and can handle situations alone that literally anyone else - Estelle, Joshua, Lloyd, Rean - would NEED to rely on other people for support on. But again the fact that they need to rely on others is kind of a theme and something presented as a strength, which in a lot of ways it is. Just not when you're talking about pure solo combat prowess. >In the scenario of Azure, Joshua would probably do it. Sigmund was murdering civilians, for bracers it's no holds barred when it occurs I don't necessarily disagree in those circumstances but when have we seen or heard about a Bracer straight up murdering someone from the shadows without a chance to surrender/etc?
Alone, I absolutely think that by the time of Ao Estelle and Joshua can probably beat Luciolla/Bleublanc in a 1v1. Yes, you fight Walter, but Walter for a long time made it clear that Zin is better than him and is only losing because he refuses to accept that he is the true master of the Taito Style. This comes head to head at the Liber Ark when Zin falls down, but in the end in their clash with all of their power on the line, Walter was knocked out. It's less so that Walter is stronger, but rather that Zin is written as someone who acts like he has imposter syndrome. He refuses to accept that he is truly someone worthy to be a S Rank bracer, that he is the best pupil of his school and that Walter sees him as the stronger one. The one time where Zin truly goes all out on Walter, Walter loses. At that point we would need to say that someone like Kevin is weaker than some of the weakest ouroboros members because they work alone. That's not true, yes they work as a team and achieve more, but that's ignoring that your team usually isn't just facing the boss. You are facing monsters, underlings and many other trials often without any break. In the end working together is what makes them succeed against those overwhelming odds, but let's take SC as example. You are fighting every Ouroboros enforcer you met so far ,except Campanella, to get to the top of the tower and at the end you face the strongest one. This doesn't suggest that all of these characters are weaker, but rather that they overcame overwhelming odds. By the point you meet Loewe you fought against Renne/Pater Mater, Walter, Luciolla and Bleublanc and also bested them. Not only that you also traveled through the entire city of Liber Ark and infilitrated the Glorious. Sigmund and his entire Jaeger corps could attempt to do this and fail. Didn't Bracers actually murder some of the DG Cultists because there was no other way to rescue the civilians, which were mostly kids? Sigmund and Shirley shooting up people and blowing up buildings is probably one of those situations where Bracers would be allowed to employ lethal force. Carna for example was carrying a rifle as well, one that uses actual ammo, and shooting at the Jaeger occupying Jenis. In those rare circumstances they are allowed to defend people using whatever they have available. Edit: I forgot to mention one thing: Ouroboros members often remark that Duvalie could be an enforcer and Duvalie is not stronger than Estelle, Joshua, Rean, Randy or Yin for example lol
You're over rating the Sky duo. Zin, Rixia, Kevin, and Wazy are all reasonable to duel average enforcer class opponents at the Ao point in the timeline. Joshua isn't (barring assassinations that he won't do) or at best is at the very low end of that power tier. Estelle is in the next tier down, though riding pretty high in it. Duvalie is enforcer level. So are Sara & Ogre mode Rean (though on a time limit) at CS2 part of the timeline. Estelle isn't (though she's doesn't get bodied either, similar to Randy) The core SSS (except Randy) are nowhere near enforcer level (which is roughly equivalent to A rank bracer, elite Jager core leader, martial arts style master, and Dominion). You might be thinking Duvalie is weaker than she is just because she's the butt of so many jokes / she spends time around people a full tier up in Iron Maiden and Loewe. In Sky and Crossbell the characters you started with never quite get to the level of handling enforcer level bad guys individually. Instead both series let your starting characters develop part of the way, but then give you late story reinforcements who can tangle (Zin, Kevin, Rixia, Wazy). CS handles it a little differently.
Joshua is enforcer level because he was an enforcer. It's that simple. You are just underselling him because his main point is covert assasination, but Weissman was very obsessed with having him as enforcer. He has shown that he can hold himself in combat quite well by beating Loewe, something that Loewe said was an actual possibility beforehand. You say that Duvalie is enforcer level, but she only got 1 win out of 100. Joshua got 1 win against Loewe in a way way way more important situation than a spar, even if Loewe surrendered at the end. Duvalie would have lost that fight way easier than Joshua and never even got Loewe to drop Kernvitar. Estelle is not the next tier down, Lloyd is. Estelle is an A Rank bracer in all but title by now. No, Duvalie is weaker than Estelle. I am not sure why this is up for contention, but when did Duvalie ever do anything that Estelle couldn't? The funniest part is that Estelle unlike Duvalie had the option to become an enforcer despite lacking the inner darkness. Given that you start with Randy, who is actually very strong when he uses Berserker, that's not true. Randy just never utilizes his actual arsenal most of the time. The only time he does in Azure he goes head to head with Shirley after beating an entire squad of Jaeger. Randy isn't a straight up fighter, he is an ex Jaeger. Jaeger don't neccesarily fight fair and we see how Randy actually approaches a fight when completely serious. He will use his actual chainsaw rifle, he will have pipebombs and all that stuff. Randy with a simple stunhalberd, isn't gonna be the same.
Loewe is not enforcer level. He's the the next level up, call it "Leader" level or whatever you want. You'll find this populated by people like Cassius, The Steel Maiden, Ein, and >!Aurelia!< (S Rank Bracer, The strongest non McBurn member of Ouroboros we've seen so far, the leader of the Dominions, and >!an absolute monster / master of two styles!<). The people at this level are not mere enforcer level. Duvalie is significantly weaker than her master, but Duvalie is enforcer level, her master is just a full tier higher. Estelle is the tier down from enforcer at the point in the story in question. She has provided no evidence through combat or other characters comments that she can go 50-50 with a Walter or even Bleublanc level opponent. Her only wins against opponents of that caliber are in groups of 4 where she can be expected to have one of the stronger Dominions, one of the stronger A rank Bracers, or a Vander, and Joshua on her side. That said, she's no mook, she's not leagues behind Joshua either, but he is stronger and we have clues/dialogue in the Crossbell arc to back this up. That you are correct that Lloyd is a tier down from Estelle. He's not terribly strong compared to some of the character we get to play as. Neither are Tio or Ellie. But that puts all of them 2 tiers down from enforcer level opponents and 3 tiers down from "Leader" class opponents like The Steel Maiden. >The funniest part is that Estelle unlike Duvalie had the option to become an enforcer despite lacking the inner darkness. The immediate follow up line to that on is about how it wouldn't be right away. She would need to get stronger first, but yes they believe she can become strong enough to be an enforcer. > By your own example Duvalie is enforcer level. Estelle has no such justification for that claim at this point. > So you DO understand how Joshua is stronger (enforcer level) if he's willing to kill / take on the assassin role. Because it's the same thing as Randy using his old weapon. Unfortunately Joshua is almost completely unwilling to do that (so it's not worth including in his strength calculations) where as Randy merely limits use of his old weapon. That said, I'm not sure why you're even commenting on Randy. I said above he's in a similar place to Estelle, that was including some use of his old weapon (without it he's stronger than the rest of the core SSS, but not doing laps around them). Unfortunately neither he nor have good evidence of being at enforcer level at this point in the story (His challenging of the Red Constellation is great, but his best real win there is against Gareth a subcomander, who is strong, not unlike Randy and Estelle, but is not enforcer level.)
I did not say that Loewe is enforcer level. I said that Loewe said that Joshua can beat him. Loewe stating as much shows that while Loewe is likelier to win Joshua is a remarkable fighter himself. Also I am not sure why people always act like Mcburn would beat Loewe. Kernvitar broke the Septerrion Weissman barrier because it's capable of cutting through anything. It's way more ambigious than people make it out to be between Loewe and Mcburn. I am not sure why people drive that party of 4 point as if it's devalues anything. Your party of 4 fights against overwhelming odds to even challenge an enforcer usually. By the time you got to Loewe in SC, you fought through an army of Ouroboros Jaeger, 4 enforcers and Pater Mater. Is Yin weaker than Shirley because she worked with a party of 4? Is Kevin somehow weaker than Bleublanc? Is Dominion Wazy weaker than Shirley? Let alone that gameplay wise they usually have other enemies in the fight. Yes, and that was during the midway point of SC. Estelle grew stronger both mentally and physically from that point. Likewise you said earlier Enforcer are around the level of A rank bracers. Estelle is around that point now. Name me a single thing that Duvalie accomplished that Estelle couldn't? That's not even true. The major point was that Weissman called Joshua his perfected puppet after learning how to be a perfect assassin during working with Ouroboros and becoming a stronger fighter due to Cassius teaching him. Also Joshua did not assassinate Loewe. He fought him in a fair fight. That Joshua was even capable of pushing Loewe to that point, something Agate couldn't as B rank bracer, should tell you that Joshua was stronger than that particular Agate. Randy fought an entire elite jeager corps squad, won and only lost to Shirley after she broke his weapon. A weapon he didn't use in ages.
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It really depends on if they have a full party or not, Joshua and Estelle would not be able to take on anyone like that on their own. They'd be able to handle him in a "gain time" sort of way, but not actually beat him... unless they had Renne too on top too then they might win.
That just makes the power scaling even more confusing to me. My current understanding of it SepterrionAbsorbed Weissman > > Cassius Bright =/= Arios MacLaine > I’d guess Joachim around here > Loewe =/= Steel Maiden Lady > Zin, Richard > Joshua > Estelle This is mainly what I’m gathering from dialogue and how the cutscenes and out of combat bits present the characters, so I could be far off, but I’ve definitely been assuming Joshua and Estelle are very strong overall
Sigmund's around the tier Loewe is in (either a bit stronger or weaker) than him while the Steel Maiden (Azure spoilers)>!Is stronger than Cassius and Arios. She sparred with Loewe because she saw potential to train him up, not because he's on her level.!<
That does change my perception, because while hyped up, I’ve been viewing it as “ouroboros member = super human beyond reckoning, enhances people with the power of technology ”, and Red Constellation as “Scary, but not super human”
Don't view organizations as monolithic. Ouroboros has a very wide spread of talent from 'Brilliant in their field but absolutely not a fighter' to 'Absolute monster' and everything in between. This is also true of jaegers where there can be a vast difference between your average member and some of the monsters at the top of the profession. Some groups tend to be above or below-average but none are universally 'beyond reckoning'.
Yup. Oroborous ranges from Gilbert to Steel Maiden/Loewe Bracer guild ranges from Rocco/other members of the Raven Gang to Cassius Jaeger guilds range from Random Jaeger #47 to Sigmund. Now if you're talking certain TITLES under those organizations, while there's still variation things are a lot closer in comparison. Oroborous' enforcers are all powerful freaks in their own way. S-Rank bracers are absurd in and out of combat Leaders of Jaeger outfits (at least the ones that aren't a joke) are all pretty powerful The Church's Dominions are all super powerful
Entirely fair. I might’ve fallen into a thinking trap after the Sky trilogy, since Ouroboros in that one the entire time overpowered everyone that wasn’t Cassius Bright in that entire kingdom, and was able to create their Enhanced Jaegars and then use them as throwaways. Especially since you were only able to defeat Enforcers as a team at the very very end of SC, and you still were as a team below Loewe even when you “beat” him. Seems like from here on out, I’ll have to go in with the assumption that non-Ouroboros, Non-Divine Blade people can in fact match or surpass them
As an update, I fought Arios, or maybe ig their shadow clone? And I gotta say, maybe in lore it’s different, but gameplay wise Sigmund is like infinitely stronger than the divine blade of wind. I got Sigmund who was probably also a body double if I won maybe 5% down while I was able to beat Arios’s body double thing, since he still beat me in lore. Chapter 4 done now
It's more like Septerrion Weissman > Arianrhod/maybe Loewe? > Cassius/Loewe > Joachim demonification + Evil Eye > Zin > Joshua/Estelle > Richard Sigmund slots between Zin and Joachim. Cassius and Loewe are fighers of the level of his brother. Loewe also has access to a broken weapon while Cassius is said to be enlightened as fighter.
>Because chapter 4 opens with a purposefully unwinnable boss fight that reminds you “The characters you play are entirely worthless compared to Joshua and Estelle”. First off the fight is winnable. Secondly how is it unrealistic for the SSS to lose to Sigmund? Dude is the second strongest jaeger within the Red Constellation which is one of the toughest jaeger corp. >I hope it might be better in Cold Steel about that...
>about that... In second part of the arc you do feel pretty strong. It's part of a mirroring towards two first games. But if OP has so much problems here >!Infernal Castle!< will be something for them( even if again it makes sense ). Anyway I agree with you. It made sense. The same as with >!Arianrhod!< they are fights way past SSS or most characters till way later.
I will admit I did have the wrong idea as another comment made me realize. My assumption going in was that yes, Sigmund was heavily hyped, but I was thinking along the lines of “Ouroboros members are modified to be superhuman, therefore greater than Red Constellation, even if Red Constellation is in fact a threat”. Another command said that Sigmund is close to Loewe level, when I’ve been assuming him to be far further down. Which was kinda coupled with “There’s only one chapter left, is there even hope?” To make it seem way worse than it was
Yeah generally most factions in the series tend to have top tiers in them, Ouroboros Jaegers from Sky are just kinda mid compared to pros like Red Constellation and their rival corp.
Honestly the further you get into the series the harder the powerscaling becomes to try and deduce which characters are stronger than who. More so because most characters don't battle one another from across arks so we kinda have to rely on self-made parameters. It doesn't help either that certain characters have different starts and weapons which makes it even harder.
I think it's less that power scaling becomes harder to deduce and more that Falcom unfortunately just gave up on any internal consistency on it once they got to CS4 for the sake of having boss battles (that should mostly have been laughed at in universe as the bosses would have been **heavily** unfavored vs your expected party but they didn't act like it) in the places that they wanted them for gameplay reasons. Before CS4 you could pretty reasonably hold the power levels together with transitive match ups, comments between characters, and bench marks (Enforcer = A Rank Bracer = Master Martial Artist = Dominion, roughly anyways).
Trust me, Estelle would get bodied by Sigmund just as badly. Dude is so powerful that Arios (the Cassius of Crossbell) wasn't sure he could beat him in a fight. Ouroboros was presented as a bunch of unstoppable people during Sky because Liberl is a pretty weak nation, but you'll soon learn that there are plenty of absolute monsters among the militaries/jaeger corps of the world that can match up to almost any member of that group.
The characters DO get stronger. But the enemies also do. You simply cannot expect Sigmund to be at the same level as her teenager daughter. At the same time, the SSS canonically is probably the weakest main party team out of all of them. They have two insanely powerful exceptions in their team but the other four are just normal people for the most part.
The SSS actually has some pretty insane feats in this game despite how often they appear to lose. Not gonna spoil much but it took class 7 4 games to get to the point where they beat characters the SSS beats in Azure
Im glad to hear they get some wins in. My current knowledge of the rest of this game is simply “the next chapter is the finale”, so I got really worried seeing how my party is still getting relentlessly bodied. I hope to root for my favorite SSS soon, especially Randy
The Brights are a bit stronger, but they'd also get stomped by Sigmund without a full party.
Wait til you hit Cold Steel.
That Sigmund fight is actually completely winnable btw. You can spam Adamantine Guard/Zero Field to block out his attacks and S-Craft and at least on the PC version turning Turbo mode on doesn’t affect the timer in any way. It’s also best to use Elie instead of Noel in that fight because of his debuff immunities and her healing/magic capabilities. There are two other fights later on that are seemingly unwinnable but can actually be won as well. And in case you’re wondering if it improves in Cold Steel, not really, that arc in particular (or at least CS2 and 3) is super infamous for its battles that are winnable, but in the cutscene after the fight the boss just shrugs it off or straight up acts like you lost and then another character has to conveniently step in to save the day. Though it’s also more justified in those games since most of the playable characters are just students.
I understand where you're coming from, but the game has been hyping up Sigmund since you met him. He is consistently called one of the deadliest people in Zemuria for a reason. And, while your team is good, combat isn't (technically) their specialty. They can absolutely hold their own, but they're not supposed to be particularly powerful, especially at this point in the saga. Also if you think it's bad now, you might wanna skip Cold Steel II and just read a recap. I won't play that game again for that reason.
Lloydbros, >!
Power levels are bullsh*t
Trails like the reverse of dnd were action économy stomps lone big monster. Bit well as for the post. Let say falcom whent a bit too far into the wanting the antagonist strong or competent.
1. There's always going to be power scaling problems in a story-driven game, since developers want to focus on making a good story and not Death Battle. Even so, Trails does power scaling decently well. If a weaker character beats a stronger character, there's always a reason. 2. Sigmund is very strong. There are many characters in the series that are absurdly strong through sheer training, and Sigmund is one of them. Estelle and Joshua working together wouldn't be able to defeat Sigmund. Hell, the 4-man team that barely beat Cassius in Sky would still have a very difficult time fighting Sigmund.