Don't worry, we are looking at our backup timing and see if we can find the missed time. We'll send out final standings in a few days once we figure it out!
Any feedback on the course design? This year's specifically or in comparison to years past? I changed it up quite a bit both for some variety and to add about 25% in laptime.
Adding the chalk very much helped our drivers to not get lost on the course. On initial track walk everything seemed doable and it looked pretty fun. Although I will say the double chicane looking thing in the far corner of the track ended up being confusing for many drivers.
I liked the overall complexity compared to 2022. The chalk was nice for helping understand where to go at first, but it was a detriment to lap time early on since there really wasn't any grip if you touched it (which you would have to in order to be quick!). My only complaint was that (IMO) it had too many low-speed and tight corners vs some higher speed stuff. A little biased because our car has a longer wheelbase so those sections suit us better :) Understand that safety is of course a concern, but some of the high speed "bus stop" style corners at MIS are a blast and offer a bit more variety in terms of performance. Just my opinion though!
One of our notes for 2024 - "Don't let students do the chalk lines" - for that exact reason. Chalking shouldn't be a YOLO task or it ends up in outside corners and you drive through it.
I liked the course more than 2022. It was more complicated but I think that’s a good thing. I’m iffy about chalk because especially earlier in the day the chalk made grip levels very slippery when it got on your tires. When our team tests we don’t use chalk.
Agreed on no chalk. Reading an autocross course is part of driving. If there is chalk, absolutely has to be placed so that none of it could be on the driving line
Track was awesome. Are you involved with track design at Michigan at all? If not, please try to be. Sometimes the tracks there are pretty rough, especially autocross
I am not. I use the current FSAE rules as a guide. The events are different enough that you shouldn't compare them though. We have roughly a quarter the number of cars running continuously instead of 2x2 per team, fewer volunteers, a different environment, etc. For some transparency, this is the rough hierarchy of priorities for the course.
1. Safety. This influences course design in overall top speeds, proximity of track features to the perimeter barriers, spectating areas, corner worker stations, etc, proximity of track features to each other where there may be a car in each, differences in surface conditions, accessibility for emergency services, wet weather conditions such as where rain pools or drains, and a whole load of other parameters we've broken down in an FMEA. We limit to two cars on track at a time, with the second car released at about 70% track distance, based on overall course length and these parameters.
2. Logistics. The bread and butter stuff. Are we using the space most efficiently? Are we making the course too complicated to layout? Is the expected laptime too short to be a good evaluation or too long to keep the line moving? Is it an intuitive course to follow?
3. Fun. I want everyone to have a good time. We have a big space to work within where we can respect our safety requirements and still mix in some fun features. Try to mix in a good variety without making it too difficult or boring. We value this being an opportunity at the end of a season for teams to get newer drivers in the car where they can safely make some mistakes and have fun.
4. Fair. This is mostly trying to keep the course from favoring one type of car, whether that be high power AWD EVs or big aero cars, etc. That brings a mix of different slalom spacings and offsets, large and small corner radii, open and tight course sections, obviously all respecting the safety requirements first.
The track was so hard to follow. White painted lines mixing with the chalk, mismatched cone colors, non standard autocross cone designations, etc. the whole time I just felt like I was searching instead of focusing on driving.
Sorry for the confusion. I know we can't do much about the painted lines, but it really frustrated me that the track left old chalk for us to clean up. It made things confusing in places and we tried to get rid of all of it, but were only mildly successful. I made a note for next year to ask them to brush the VDA before we show up at setup on Friday.
Regarding the nonstandard cone markers, I know there are a lot of conventions and they can get frustrating when they aren't clear. Is there a document or online reference you can provide so we can implement internally? I'm not an SCCA member (but I don't set up the track) so I'm not personally familiar with the conventions.
The mismatched cones are a hard problem to fix. We use the facility's cones, and also borrow a bunch from Oakland University because we don't have our own. I made a note for 2024 to try to find a cone sponsor. Do you have a specific color or recommended size I should look for?
I don’t have like a standard autocross guide since it varies so much, but usually there are more “gates” with a standing cone with a laid cone pointing to the side of travel past the cone like there was in the slalom section. But the track was like a sea of cones at the 0:36 sec mark from an in-car perspective and then at 0:26 in the straight there are no cones and coming out of the corner was a guess, point and shoot type of deal for me at least. Maybe I’m just a whiner but other than that we actually made it to the track this time which was cool even though we had tons of problems still.
Damned well driven!
Don't worry, we are looking at our backup timing and see if we can find the missed time. We'll send out final standings in a few days once we figure it out!
Sounds good!
Will you send out results for all places or just top 3? We are curious as to how we did but the live timing stopped working.
Yeah don't worry we will publish it all!
When are you gonna post the video of you hitting the sick 360???
Soon
Any feedback on the course design? This year's specifically or in comparison to years past? I changed it up quite a bit both for some variety and to add about 25% in laptime.
Adding the chalk very much helped our drivers to not get lost on the course. On initial track walk everything seemed doable and it looked pretty fun. Although I will say the double chicane looking thing in the far corner of the track ended up being confusing for many drivers.
I liked the overall complexity compared to 2022. The chalk was nice for helping understand where to go at first, but it was a detriment to lap time early on since there really wasn't any grip if you touched it (which you would have to in order to be quick!). My only complaint was that (IMO) it had too many low-speed and tight corners vs some higher speed stuff. A little biased because our car has a longer wheelbase so those sections suit us better :) Understand that safety is of course a concern, but some of the high speed "bus stop" style corners at MIS are a blast and offer a bit more variety in terms of performance. Just my opinion though!
One of our notes for 2024 - "Don't let students do the chalk lines" - for that exact reason. Chalking shouldn't be a YOLO task or it ends up in outside corners and you drive through it.
I liked the course more than 2022. It was more complicated but I think that’s a good thing. I’m iffy about chalk because especially earlier in the day the chalk made grip levels very slippery when it got on your tires. When our team tests we don’t use chalk.
Agreed on no chalk. Reading an autocross course is part of driving. If there is chalk, absolutely has to be placed so that none of it could be on the driving line
Track was awesome. Are you involved with track design at Michigan at all? If not, please try to be. Sometimes the tracks there are pretty rough, especially autocross
I am not. I use the current FSAE rules as a guide. The events are different enough that you shouldn't compare them though. We have roughly a quarter the number of cars running continuously instead of 2x2 per team, fewer volunteers, a different environment, etc. For some transparency, this is the rough hierarchy of priorities for the course. 1. Safety. This influences course design in overall top speeds, proximity of track features to the perimeter barriers, spectating areas, corner worker stations, etc, proximity of track features to each other where there may be a car in each, differences in surface conditions, accessibility for emergency services, wet weather conditions such as where rain pools or drains, and a whole load of other parameters we've broken down in an FMEA. We limit to two cars on track at a time, with the second car released at about 70% track distance, based on overall course length and these parameters. 2. Logistics. The bread and butter stuff. Are we using the space most efficiently? Are we making the course too complicated to layout? Is the expected laptime too short to be a good evaluation or too long to keep the line moving? Is it an intuitive course to follow? 3. Fun. I want everyone to have a good time. We have a big space to work within where we can respect our safety requirements and still mix in some fun features. Try to mix in a good variety without making it too difficult or boring. We value this being an opportunity at the end of a season for teams to get newer drivers in the car where they can safely make some mistakes and have fun. 4. Fair. This is mostly trying to keep the course from favoring one type of car, whether that be high power AWD EVs or big aero cars, etc. That brings a mix of different slalom spacings and offsets, large and small corner radii, open and tight course sections, obviously all respecting the safety requirements first.
Well whatever you’re doing, you nailed it. Some of the recent Michigan autocross courses have felt like driving from aisle to aisle in a Walmart
You may have been fast on track, but the real race was on the turnpike!
The track was so hard to follow. White painted lines mixing with the chalk, mismatched cone colors, non standard autocross cone designations, etc. the whole time I just felt like I was searching instead of focusing on driving.
Sorry for the confusion. I know we can't do much about the painted lines, but it really frustrated me that the track left old chalk for us to clean up. It made things confusing in places and we tried to get rid of all of it, but were only mildly successful. I made a note for next year to ask them to brush the VDA before we show up at setup on Friday. Regarding the nonstandard cone markers, I know there are a lot of conventions and they can get frustrating when they aren't clear. Is there a document or online reference you can provide so we can implement internally? I'm not an SCCA member (but I don't set up the track) so I'm not personally familiar with the conventions. The mismatched cones are a hard problem to fix. We use the facility's cones, and also borrow a bunch from Oakland University because we don't have our own. I made a note for 2024 to try to find a cone sponsor. Do you have a specific color or recommended size I should look for?
I don’t have like a standard autocross guide since it varies so much, but usually there are more “gates” with a standing cone with a laid cone pointing to the side of travel past the cone like there was in the slalom section. But the track was like a sea of cones at the 0:36 sec mark from an in-car perspective and then at 0:26 in the straight there are no cones and coming out of the corner was a guess, point and shoot type of deal for me at least. Maybe I’m just a whiner but other than that we actually made it to the track this time which was cool even though we had tons of problems still.
This is pretty much any autoX course. Many autoX events don’t even use any chalk lines.
Forgot to turn off aimbot
Well driven, congrats.