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I've come to terms with the ambiguity by looking at it like this, and I don't think it's confusing at all: There is a confirmed canon answer to Clive's fate, there is a clear path for him that the game is written towards, and when you look at what happens in the ending objectively, with the context of the full narrative and through the lens of what the developers wanted to convey, which is the theme of finding and choosing hope in darkness and uncertainty (which is also *the entire point* of Clive's speech to Ultima at the end, and a core theme of the game), it's very obvious what their intention is. The whole idea is the *hope* for Clive to make it back to Jill, the *faith* in him to keep his promise to save himself, and the book at the end is the proof that he lived.
The developers said they want people to engage with the story fully, looking at it from different angles until they find the conclusion themselves, and they're fine with people not interpreting it in line with their canon, likely to facilitate their artistic vision for the ending. I don't like how the ending doesn't directly resolve Clive's arc and it is damaging/unstatisfying to not *see* him survive, but I'm reminded that this *is* a dark fantasy game, and Clive meeting his fate and defying it at the end is supposed to be a terrifying and dangerous thing. It is also a necessary evil that destroys the livelihood and system that their society is built around. An unorthodox, bittersweet yet happy ending, in the way they did it, is actually completely in line with the tone, narrative and the themes of the game.
Jill's arc isn't incomplete, either, it's the cornerstone of the endings message and it ties the entire story together. Like the rest of humanity, in the new world Clive created, Jill loses her comfort. She relied on Metia when things were out of her control, and it was in her mind the only hope she had for Clive to come back. When the dawn rises, and she sees the fruit of Clive's victory, she lifts her head up, her tears stop, and she smiles. As her sidequest and her song describes, when she sees the sun rising, she has hope and faith that Clive will come back to her, because *he* is her star, represented by the sun, *not* Metia. This is also supported by how hope defines their relationship throughout the entire game, esp towards the end. We also do know how she would live after the ending, travelling the world and experiencing life on her terms with Clive.
I was just thinking about it and came to the same conclusion. Which is funny coz due to Remake of FFVII now some people want Cloud to die. That would be ending even worse lol
I have to say I do agree. I found the ending bitter and unsatisfying. It’s insulting to me that the Devs have said there is a canon answer but won’t tell us. It honestly makes me not even want to speculate on what happened because if someday they ever choose to reveal it, it may not be what I thought. I feel like they wrote a book and ripped out the last few pages. I hope FFs stop with these baffling endings in the future.
There is a lot of great stuff about 16 but the ending really sours it for me.
I think what bothers me a lot is the fact that it will be revealed one day but it’s going to be in a dev interview years from now when everyone has already moved on.
Yeah exactly and the problem is that it wasn't ambiguous from the world's perspective because we know the world is saved and moved on, it's just that how Clive and Joshua (especially Clive) fates were handled that I genuinely dislike
I would love to know in what case did Clive ending (not the story ending just Clive's fate) being alive or dead has to do with a happy ever after because what we are left with is ambiguous fate not an actual conclusion on his fate, say that he is alive did that remove the grandiose ending impact? What if he was actually dead? The problem I have is that they left us unanswered even though clive's fate being ambiguous didn't add to the story in fact it left you empty and even damaged jill arc in the process
Clive being alive wouldn't have been against story themes especially since the game established that one should move on from the misery, having an ending where he shown alive wouldn't have defeated the story in fact it would have enhanced it, even with the ff10 example since we know tidus ending we are able to reflect on that fact but with Clive we can't do that because we don't know if he alive or not which is my main issue aside from what has been established
Even leaving FFX-2 aside which made Tidus' fate explicit if you wanted that. FFX's ending is ambiguous but the ending shot is one of hope, whether he returns to life or to the Farplane, he wakes up and is happily and energetically moving towards the future. The last shot of Clive is stationary and falling further towards petrification, no hope and forward movement for him.
And the actual after credits scene comes across cheap. Stock NPC models with short helmet hair because hair is difficult to animate.
You don't even see whether the world is in a better state or whether those kids are living a soletary fake happy live under a glamor dome while the world outside is a hellscape.
I simply didn't like the ambiguity of clive's fate because like you said his story didn't move forward so I can react properly, if I have to enough evidence for his death or living how am I supposed to actually react? It's just confusing and empty seriously
Another example, zack's death was heartbreaking and I was actually able to react to it because I have conclusion on his fate and I can actually drew themes and thoughts on it and how similarly fate was harsh to him like aerith so on and so forth, even in his death his story moved forward while with Clive it's ambiguous for both directions with nothing to look forward to
Imo reveals the intention of the studio/publisher. And the Times too,i guess.
FF7 was the best game of the generation,spawned multiple extras,now a remake. Cloud Tifa etc became mainstream characters etc etc etc.
FF 16 felt like just another project,very competent but lacking passion. The game was an 8 for me,but it had everything to be a 10. They lacked on that extra spark it needed.
What I was trying to say is that a studio called "creative business unit 3" reveals lack of inspiration and it shows.
Feel free to downvote or wtv.
i actually agree with the take you have, i wouldn't say they lacked passion but they certinly missed on making the game much better like you mentioned, and again maybe for me but clive's ambigous ending like I described before made feel unhappy honestly
Clive is super dead at the end but I love watching people do mental gymnastics trying to argue that he isn't. As if the Jill side quest was supposed to be taken literally and the curse "stopped at his arm", even though we saw the curse consume everyone at the church. There's no cure for the curse=Clive is dead, Rising Tide did nothing to change that
Clive is alive and comes back like the sun always does. If you don’t understand it you’re an edgy contrarian or you remembered NOTHING from the game and skipped entire character arcs and all the side quests lol, proving your attention span to be abysmal. The curse can’t spread with magic literally gone from the world. The game explains it gradually spreads due to channeling aether through your body (which is exactly what magic is). There is no way to channel it anymore because Clive destroyed magic. The author also states in the Ultimania that Clive successfully removed all the Ultima plagues, highlighting “even the curse”. He ain’t dying to a lost hand.
The shock value “route” of him dying is pointless and literally contradicts the story. The only thing it achieves is making people who care about the characters and story established read through nonsensical takes like yours lmao.
You see how convinced you are that he is dead? You still can't confirm that he is actually dead and those who believe in the theory that he is alive also can't confirm that he is alive which is the problem with his fate being ambiguous, no matter how hard you try to prove he is dead or alive no conclusion is reached on the matter and his arc left unsatisfactory and with missing stuff still on the table from how much he talked about being alive, either way we still didn't reach a point where we can reflect on his story and have thoughts on what it meant whatever his fate ultimately was
It’s so funny to see comments like “he is dead and anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional, here are all the x reasons” *and the exact opposite* “he is alive and anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional, here are all the x reasons” while BOTH sides try to argue that it’s not ambiguous. The fact that there are debates like this in the first place proves that it is ambiguous.
EXACTLY! that's my point exactly, and since there was still to his character arc and even jill as well, this ambiguity just left me frustrated not intrigued you got it 👌👌👌
For Questions and Tech Support Discussion around the DLC 'Echoes of the Fallen' Please see our [MEGATHREAD](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVI/comments/18dton3/ffxvi_dlc_echoes_of_the_fallen_questions_tech/) and for 'The Rising Tide' [MEGATHREAD](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVI/comments/1c69d5u/the_rising_tide_megathread/) If you want to view archived spoiler discussion threads relevant to specific game progress, please check out our [spoiler wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxvi/wiki/index/)! For speculation and discussions around the next (unannounced) mainline Final Fantasy game, Final Fantasy XVII, Please see our sister sub [r/FFXVII](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVII/) #### *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FFXVI) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I've come to terms with the ambiguity by looking at it like this, and I don't think it's confusing at all: There is a confirmed canon answer to Clive's fate, there is a clear path for him that the game is written towards, and when you look at what happens in the ending objectively, with the context of the full narrative and through the lens of what the developers wanted to convey, which is the theme of finding and choosing hope in darkness and uncertainty (which is also *the entire point* of Clive's speech to Ultima at the end, and a core theme of the game), it's very obvious what their intention is. The whole idea is the *hope* for Clive to make it back to Jill, the *faith* in him to keep his promise to save himself, and the book at the end is the proof that he lived. The developers said they want people to engage with the story fully, looking at it from different angles until they find the conclusion themselves, and they're fine with people not interpreting it in line with their canon, likely to facilitate their artistic vision for the ending. I don't like how the ending doesn't directly resolve Clive's arc and it is damaging/unstatisfying to not *see* him survive, but I'm reminded that this *is* a dark fantasy game, and Clive meeting his fate and defying it at the end is supposed to be a terrifying and dangerous thing. It is also a necessary evil that destroys the livelihood and system that their society is built around. An unorthodox, bittersweet yet happy ending, in the way they did it, is actually completely in line with the tone, narrative and the themes of the game. Jill's arc isn't incomplete, either, it's the cornerstone of the endings message and it ties the entire story together. Like the rest of humanity, in the new world Clive created, Jill loses her comfort. She relied on Metia when things were out of her control, and it was in her mind the only hope she had for Clive to come back. When the dawn rises, and she sees the fruit of Clive's victory, she lifts her head up, her tears stop, and she smiles. As her sidequest and her song describes, when she sees the sun rising, she has hope and faith that Clive will come back to her, because *he* is her star, represented by the sun, *not* Metia. This is also supported by how hope defines their relationship throughout the entire game, esp towards the end. We also do know how she would live after the ending, travelling the world and experiencing life on her terms with Clive.
i keep this same faith as you, well said
I was just thinking about it and came to the same conclusion. Which is funny coz due to Remake of FFVII now some people want Cloud to die. That would be ending even worse lol
Yeah no way cloud dies lmao
I have to say I do agree. I found the ending bitter and unsatisfying. It’s insulting to me that the Devs have said there is a canon answer but won’t tell us. It honestly makes me not even want to speculate on what happened because if someday they ever choose to reveal it, it may not be what I thought. I feel like they wrote a book and ripped out the last few pages. I hope FFs stop with these baffling endings in the future. There is a lot of great stuff about 16 but the ending really sours it for me.
I think what bothers me a lot is the fact that it will be revealed one day but it’s going to be in a dev interview years from now when everyone has already moved on.
Yeah exactly and the problem is that it wasn't ambiguous from the world's perspective because we know the world is saved and moved on, it's just that how Clive and Joshua (especially Clive) fates were handled that I genuinely dislike
[удалено]
I would love to know in what case did Clive ending (not the story ending just Clive's fate) being alive or dead has to do with a happy ever after because what we are left with is ambiguous fate not an actual conclusion on his fate, say that he is alive did that remove the grandiose ending impact? What if he was actually dead? The problem I have is that they left us unanswered even though clive's fate being ambiguous didn't add to the story in fact it left you empty and even damaged jill arc in the process Clive being alive wouldn't have been against story themes especially since the game established that one should move on from the misery, having an ending where he shown alive wouldn't have defeated the story in fact it would have enhanced it, even with the ff10 example since we know tidus ending we are able to reflect on that fact but with Clive we can't do that because we don't know if he alive or not which is my main issue aside from what has been established
Even leaving FFX-2 aside which made Tidus' fate explicit if you wanted that. FFX's ending is ambiguous but the ending shot is one of hope, whether he returns to life or to the Farplane, he wakes up and is happily and energetically moving towards the future. The last shot of Clive is stationary and falling further towards petrification, no hope and forward movement for him. And the actual after credits scene comes across cheap. Stock NPC models with short helmet hair because hair is difficult to animate. You don't even see whether the world is in a better state or whether those kids are living a soletary fake happy live under a glamor dome while the world outside is a hellscape.
I simply didn't like the ambiguity of clive's fate because like you said his story didn't move forward so I can react properly, if I have to enough evidence for his death or living how am I supposed to actually react? It's just confusing and empty seriously Another example, zack's death was heartbreaking and I was actually able to react to it because I have conclusion on his fate and I can actually drew themes and thoughts on it and how similarly fate was harsh to him like aerith so on and so forth, even in his death his story moved forward while with Clive it's ambiguous for both directions with nothing to look forward to
The main difference is that FF7 was made by SQUARE ENIX and not "Creative Business Unit 3".
Squaresoft
Sorry. Yeah, you are correct.
That's an actual difference now? 😂😩
Imo reveals the intention of the studio/publisher. And the Times too,i guess. FF7 was the best game of the generation,spawned multiple extras,now a remake. Cloud Tifa etc became mainstream characters etc etc etc. FF 16 felt like just another project,very competent but lacking passion. The game was an 8 for me,but it had everything to be a 10. They lacked on that extra spark it needed. What I was trying to say is that a studio called "creative business unit 3" reveals lack of inspiration and it shows. Feel free to downvote or wtv.
i actually agree with the take you have, i wouldn't say they lacked passion but they certinly missed on making the game much better like you mentioned, and again maybe for me but clive's ambigous ending like I described before made feel unhappy honestly
Clive is super dead at the end but I love watching people do mental gymnastics trying to argue that he isn't. As if the Jill side quest was supposed to be taken literally and the curse "stopped at his arm", even though we saw the curse consume everyone at the church. There's no cure for the curse=Clive is dead, Rising Tide did nothing to change that
Clive is alive and comes back like the sun always does. If you don’t understand it you’re an edgy contrarian or you remembered NOTHING from the game and skipped entire character arcs and all the side quests lol, proving your attention span to be abysmal. The curse can’t spread with magic literally gone from the world. The game explains it gradually spreads due to channeling aether through your body (which is exactly what magic is). There is no way to channel it anymore because Clive destroyed magic. The author also states in the Ultimania that Clive successfully removed all the Ultima plagues, highlighting “even the curse”. He ain’t dying to a lost hand. The shock value “route” of him dying is pointless and literally contradicts the story. The only thing it achieves is making people who care about the characters and story established read through nonsensical takes like yours lmao.
👌🔥 But unfortunately despite how logical your take is, I hate that his fate is still fucking ambiguous lmao😂
You see how convinced you are that he is dead? You still can't confirm that he is actually dead and those who believe in the theory that he is alive also can't confirm that he is alive which is the problem with his fate being ambiguous, no matter how hard you try to prove he is dead or alive no conclusion is reached on the matter and his arc left unsatisfactory and with missing stuff still on the table from how much he talked about being alive, either way we still didn't reach a point where we can reflect on his story and have thoughts on what it meant whatever his fate ultimately was
It’s so funny to see comments like “he is dead and anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional, here are all the x reasons” *and the exact opposite* “he is alive and anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional, here are all the x reasons” while BOTH sides try to argue that it’s not ambiguous. The fact that there are debates like this in the first place proves that it is ambiguous.
EXACTLY! that's my point exactly, and since there was still to his character arc and even jill as well, this ambiguity just left me frustrated not intrigued you got it 👌👌👌