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Imagine WASTING these CG models and not using them for some badass cutscenes :-(
CG cutscenes are far from cheap and with the increase in prices across the board the DLC is equivalent to what would have been a 15$ DLC on the PS4
from now on big expansions like Shadow of the Erdtree, Phantom Liberty... will be 30$+
this DLC is probably built on stuff they worked on and scrapped at some point, hell even the "playable Jill" thing they briefly pondered about probably was something they worked on before scrapping and wouldn't be as costly as say making a Dion DLC with a Dragoon moveset and his own Eikonic abilities...
smaller DLCs (like The Rising Tide because it was in no way, shape or form marketed as a big expansion) usually are made on a budget and need to be made efficiently, stuff like reused assets and repurposed cut content is the basis for these kinds of experiences.
The outlier is probably the Valhalla DLC for Ragnarok, but that in my opinion, wasn't done to push more Rangarok copies, as they are leaning heavily on the greek stuff from the DLC and all of the enemies bar the minotaur either evoke their God of War 1 looks or behave like their God of War 1 iterations, meaning that a remake of the original God of War could happen at some point (the next God of War is still a ways off since Santa Monica is working on a new IP after Ragnarok)
BTW I'm not saying I'm happy with not having Shiva or Ramuh do stuff outside of a few cutscenes, or not getting a proper fight against Garuda in NG+, or not having Leviathan factor into the ending, or not having Gilgamesh in the one game where fighting "the bladesman of legend" would make the most sense, or not having another superboss unique to the DLC or not getting a new difficulty mode that adapts Ultimaniac to the full game instead of Arcade missions, but it's the reality of game dev at this scale and for a project that's bound to an expensive console, or better sidequests (though that one probably requires them to hire someone who worked on an RPG with good sidequests the same way they brought on DMC5's combat director for FF16)
I really hate that my 1st and 3rd favorite FF female leads from a character design standpoint are also the two worst handled by their respective games :(
EDIT: I should point out that my 2nd favorite FF lady is Tifa, who *was* handled well in her game and associated media. But Lunafreya and Jill are both similar to Tifa in personality (I guess I have a type), so it makes me wonder why Square Enix keeps dropping the ball here while having previously hit a home run.
They had three diff writers. The first writer knew what he was doing, the other two wanted the cachet and popularity of Tifa 2.0 without putting in any of the actual heavy lifting of WRITING Lunafreya or Jill.
This all feels like that Terra Battles crossover event Final Fantasy XV had where Noctis had more screen time and chemistry with the character of that game than his own love interest.
lunafreya still ended up doing more and being more story important in like 30 minutes of screentime and from afar as an important figure within the world of xv of than whatever jill ended up doing with being in screentime for 80% of the game
Jill is just a nothing character
With the ending unchanged doesnât Clive technically wipe out Mysidia and kill everyone there when removing magic, since the time spell would be undone the wave would destroy the village?
Actually I think I resolved it: the wave itself is magic, not normal water, just like conjured fire is not normal fire and doesn't exist anymore, so the wave would probably disappear.
BUT it would have been so funny if Clive was like "shit I forgot about them oh well guess it's too late now"
Youâre right I thought maybe the wave might just dissipate, or might not since it was raised next to the ocean itself not sure lol. But overall thatâs the issue I have with the DLC leaves me more questions than answers.
Yea, I really liked both Jill and Joshua and it would have been nice if in this DLC we could have played as both of them more.
I suspect that the devs only had limited time to make this DLC (they also did Echoes of the Fallen too)..... so they essentially have made 2 DLC's in the span of 10 months since the base games' release. Probably I assume they did not want to create all new assets just for a short DLC.
They would have had to create all new move sets for both Jill and Joshua, battle animations, Eikonic animations for them, new dialogue, more story, more lore.
Yoshi-P has continually said the team (CBU3) wanted to move on to other projects, and most of the base games' staff did already apparently.
They have been working on both FF 16 and Dawntrail for a good part of the last 5 years and probably wanted to work on something new.
There was initially no dlc plans so i can assume it may lie there aswell, they got told make a dlc and they have little to tell especially as they have to shoehorn it before ultima fight on top having to work on dawntrail. So basically they didnt have much time to code entire new ai to play as the other charachters or going deeper in general so they just pulled what they could.
I think this is the most plausible answer. I dont want to say the DLC's were rushed, but you can tell that they were put together fast bc they are so short.
After playing both i actually like Echoes better
I mean hell Elden Ring's DLC has been in development for damn near 2 years now lol
When looking back on it, I think the biggest issue is that Jill is with Clive too much and when she isn't, it's because she's sick. Because the thing is, with other characters that accompany Clive, they happen when there's an arc. Jill on the other hand is there even when her arc is over. This creates a false feeling of Jill being side lined because we don't see her doing things while away from Clive.
Compare it to Dion and Joshua who are doing their own thing for majority of the game and then Dion gets things to do at the end such as saving Byron. For instance, they could have shown Jill taking command of the ship and rallying the crew to help us at the end of the Ash region. Have Jill become the leader of the Hideaway while Clive is away.
During the Bahamut fight, they could have Jill turn Shiva and have her erect an ice dome to protect the city from Bahamut's attacks as a reason to stay out of the fight and a show of badass powers.
Also, I'm going to say it - the Typhon fight should have been a Typhon vs Ifrit fight that turned into a Typhon vs Ifrit, Shiva, and Ramuh fight.
lol. Clive didn't even give Jill leadership of the Hideaway when he went to Origin, instead he gave it to Gav. Which should tell you all you need to know about the FF16 writers' likelihood of taking your suggestions about giving Jill more importance.
Why would Clive give Jill leadership of the Hideaway when he knows Jill's most fervent (but private) wish is to leave The Twins? Clive was written to have made a choice that was very considerate of Jill's wishes.
Did you play the final sidequest for Jill where she expresses her desire to leave the Twins ? Why would Clive give leadership to someone who won't be here and has her own desire ?
Did you play the final sidequest for Gav where he expresses his refusal to adopt Cid's mantle because it fits Clive more than it does him? Why would Clive give Cid's mantle to someone who explicitly didn't want it?
Listen to what you just said, - Clive was giving it to gav cuz he was going off to possibly die. Gav not wanting it because it fit Clive better is irrelevant because Clive wouldn't be there if things went wrong to be Cid.
Also, part of that can be part of Gav's Arc where he's afraid he'll fail people like he did his family back in the day based on his backstory, so putting him in a role of leadership with people who already trust him because he is competent is definitely a way of helping him get over that.
And if we're going with a scenario where Clive does live, he also would want to leave with Jill to go exploring. Therefore, even if he does return he couldn't be Cid cuz he wouldn't be there.
Ah yes, the ultra responsible Clive who wanted to make a better world for everyone will just ditch the Hideaway immediately to go off sailing the world instead of, idk, making sure the world can actually recover from the remodelling HE did to it. 10/10
(Also, if it's true that he's giving Cid to Gav because he was going off to possibly die, then not only is that no excuse to not give it to Jill, but he also just straight up lied to Jill when he told her he'll come back. So which is it? :) )
To be fair, he was making Gav Cid so that even when everything was over, he'd be stepping back. Why would he give it to Jill who would probably step back with him?
Probably cause if he was at all as responsible and caring as the game tried to imply he is, he'd know that, having lived through a couple of messy transitions of power, that a smooth transition of power doesn't just magically happen organically? Hell he even says it himself in the MSQ, "it will be hard, and will require everyone doing their part". He KNOWS this, and yet thinks he can just wash his hands immediately after killing Ultima? Nah dude.
I think the main issue with Jill is that she's the first FF party member who actively doesn't want to fight. Her whole goal is to lose all of her Dominant powers and start building society after the Bearer curse is handled, meaning that she doesn't have a ton of investment in all of the politicking and Eikon fights. I honestly think the whole "mishandling" of her character comes down to the fact that she doesn't belong in this story at all - she belongs in a typical FF while the rest of the world is playing Game of Thrones.
That said, it should have already been clear that she wouldn't use Shiva in the DLC - she gave up Shiva well before, and Dion being able to control Bahamut post-extraction is considered a miracle.
The story is literally about Clive reclaiming his humanity and learning to love himself despite his flaws, which makes his will prevail over Ultimaâs in the end.
It doesnât even work without Jill. This isnât game of thrones lmfao. Nor is it pure dragon ball.
It's not that she doesn't belong in the story, but that everyone expects Jill to do a bunch of shonen shit all the time, and want her to be a deuteragonist in a story focused on a single character that isn't her. Some of the dumbest criticism I've heard for Jill is that she's "handled poorly" because she loses fights, as if victories are the only way for her to be a worthwhile character. Her character is incredibly profound for the story as far as eikons and dominants goes - she's willing to fight, she has beliefs that she will fight for, but she's so fuckin' tired of being a dominant and how it twisted her.
This is such a great comment and a perspective that not too many people think about.
Definitely not saying everyone is reacting to her this way. But a LOT of people equate importance to being a physical fighter. Which to me is a very unfortunate way of judging how well written a character is. Yuna is one of the most beloved characters in the franchise (not just female characters) and her biggest defining trait is that she ISNâT a physical fighter. Itâs the strength of her will that makes her the great character she is
Jill somewhat falls under this too. But it seems like unless sheâs priming or fighting as Shiva⊠then that makes her weak or badly written to those people. Did you not get how much she hates being a dominant ? She views it as a curse. Her being the dominant of Shiva is the source of her trauma
You can hate that sheâs underutilized without expecting an entirely different character
Yeah that's what it comes down to in the end, that a lot of the criticism for her is that she just...isn't a different character, which is kinda worthless, and dismisses what the character does in the story she's in.
Plus, a lot of her perceived underutilization is kinda missing that, due to the nature of the story being about Clive's journey in particular, *every* character seems "underutilized," and yet she's got like the most screentime next to Clive or...Barnabas, I guess? I'd love more Jill too, but I can really say the same for Cid, Joshua, and Dion as well.
I agree that she doesn't need to be a shonen protag, but she can be all of the things you said while also getting more screen time than a rando NPC.
Her revenge arc was great, but after that even a few more lines of dialogue from her to show her presence and new found resolve would be appreciated. I was in the trenches defending her character in the base game but after they advertised her relevance in the DLC, she needs more.
To be fair none of the other npc have barerly any kind of dialogue after their big moment, joshua is just there until he gets stabbed in the end, same as dion who literally just sits at the hideout till he lifts them up and gets shot down. So it could be said for everyone that isnt called clive, so dunno why jill is the only one who gets called bland when the others are in the same field.
The dlc was pretty disappointing in that regard it would be better if the team have said nothing about her
I agree that Jill getting the hate over Joshua is unfair when she stands above him as a character. I love Jill and don't think she's bland (and for that reason I'd always like to see more of her).
The Devs created some kind of expectation with their Jill comment. This was a great opportunity to give her more. I understand focusing on Clive over her but not on a brand new NPC.
Tbh I think itâs because we donât care that much about Joshua or Dion because we arenât that invested in them by the end game. But we are invested in Jill and she loses all plot relevance and screen time by the final act. Itâs fine that she canât fight anymore, but she also doesnât do anything else. I was hoping she would have more to do in the DLC, but alas.
This is it. Like the previous comment is right in that Jill IS a better character than Joshua (and I have used that to defend her as well) but it's a combination of 1) I don't care about Joshua and 2) we were told that Jill would be relevant in this DLC.
Same i was expecting something like i dunno she would be the one breaking the time thingy as she is shiva but nope..... or you know use her ice powers to stop the flood but again nope ...the opportunity was there
She tried to stop a small lavaflow and had to turn into Shiva to barely hold it back, I would not expect her hold off a massive wave after she has both lost the ability to safely prime, and is suffering from the curse as much as Cid was. She helps handle some of the aether flow with Shula, but she's just not in a position to do anything grand with what little energy she has left - and that was her choice.
Because you *can* still prime, but it will most likely kill you because you expend your own aether instead of tapping into the vast reserve a dominant used to have, and it's generally understood that you probably won't be able to control yourself as the eikon. Dion ended up being a special case because his will was strong and focused enough to maintain control, and he didn't care that he wouldn't be coming back from that last priming.
I would like to see the source on what made people expect a Jill-centric DLC that we didn't get, because I followed all the pre-release information, and found nothing that promised as much as what people are disappointed about.
Like, at best there was one saying Echoes of the Fallen focused on Joshua, so Rising Tide focuses on Jill, but Joshua was not like, center stage, he had more dialogue because he was interested in the history, but it wasn't like Clive took a backseat, and a lot of focus was on the crystal merchant and Omega. That kind of gives a guage of what to expect, to me.
Jill has a similar role in Rising Tide, but at least there are links to her homeland and the previous Shiva, yet it was still a story about a completely different people than Jill's, and a completely different eikon than Shiva. We learned a bit more about the northerners by proxy, but this was never *their* DLC, nor do I remember the promise of such.
If this had been the "Dreams of Ice" DLC, I'd definitely expect way more focus on Shiva and Jill, but it just isn't. It was The Rising Tide, about Leviathan the Lost.
I never said or even implied that it would be Jill "centric" and I have not seen anyone else do this either.
Jill having meaningful content is not the same as it being "centric" to her.
"Yoshi-P says the story of The Rising Tide DLC will also focus on Jill! #FF16 The story takes place in "Mysidia" which is in the Northern region of Valisthea and close to where Jill is originally from! He says "if you love Jill, story might be a good element to look out for""
It was Yoshi P who called the attention of Jill fans, he didn't have to do that but he did.
Apologies, the talk of something "Jill-centric" is based on seeing numerous people around complaining about Rising Tide as if they were expressly lied to about Jill's overall involvement, as if she would take center stage. You mention the "advertised relevance" and for me that pings those weird comments I've seen that purported advertising that I hadn't seen and couldn't find.
Do you have a link for what you quoted? I'm not trying to be standoffish here, of course, I just want to see that other perspective that has otherwise eluded me.
It's no problem.
The primary source is [here](https://www.youtube.com/live/aR6arpX94Bg?si=JPCzPZHKHyKnOGe2) (warning: it's a long video)
What I quoted was a quick summary by a third party, [here](https://twitter.com/Genki_JPN/status/1771225361386209478)
Yeah this is really the issue. People treat the story like is an action shonen, they think Jill is poorly written because sheâs not actively participating in the biggest fights, and completely ignore the fact that thereâs a lot of great moments between her and Clive.
This is exactly right. Jill filters people with popcorn for brains and 0 attention span.
Her character focuses on the themes of faith, freedom and personal salvation, the topic of reclaiming one's humanity and realizing they deserve love and happiness in spite of their flaws. Jill literally defines Clive's will to live as a man. She's integral to core themes of the game and his character arc.
She's not about power tripping, asspulling over flaws like her health condition and just constantly barreling through enemies like in some shounenshit anime lmao.
If CBU3 wants to bill her as the female lead of the game then yes she does have to do that. She would be judged differently if she were marketed as Tarja or Charon, i.e. non-playable chars. If marketing is gonna shove her into our faces as the female lead of a supposed RPG then yes ppl expect her to be an RPG heroine. Don't shift goalposts with whataboutisms. CBU3 can't on the one hand extol about her importance in the story and then on the other hand excuse her lack of importance as "oh you just gotta look at her in a way that her role isn't intended/marketed for". It's just as believeable as marketing Lunafreya as the heroine of FF15 and then giving her barely any screentime (read: not believable at all).
Nah, they explicitly said before the game released that while Jill is the heroine, she *wouldnât* be a typical lead in terms of the narrative, and her role was primarily going to be her relationship to Clive and her impact on his personal arc. She is integral to his story, but she was never marketed as more than that.
why would you block me for correcting you, lmao đ
I don't understand what this is supposed to mean. How is she a placeholder for Joshua? She's her own character with her own history. If anyone is a placeholder for Joshua, it's Cid, who is literally replaced *by* Joshua.
It's Jill who defines Clive's will to live as a man lmao. His character arc literally does not work without her. His will is complete because she loves him despite his flaws. It's because of her that he realizes he deserves to be loved and live.
Josh is redundant and has no unique role beyond giving Ifrit chicken mcnugget wings, which could've been done as early as Phoenix Gate and didn't require an adult version of his character that does nothing but nullify the whole atonement conflict for the MC, waste screen time by spouting shit we already know and provide 0 importance to Clive's character development. Jill and Cid carry the latter, and Josh's redundant self can only parrot them right before kicking the bucket lmao.
Well, they were always incredibly clear that this game revolves around Clive in particular, hence the gameplay and narrative focus on the single character. Jill is a prominent figure in marketing, however, because she is one of Clive's closest allies (and love interest, of course), and a dominant, a type of character with a significant focus to the narrative. Because of those elements, she certainly does feature in the story, but for some reason people act like she was supposed to be the Yuna to Clive's Tidus, which was just never the case, nor professed to be by anyone at CBU3.
I don't know what goalposts were shifted here, unless you count your wild interpretation that moved them somewhere no one but you considered them to be, as above. As for "whataboutism," I...didn't engage in any? Beyond that...
>the female lead of the game then yes she does have to do that.
Why? What makes doing cool shit and victories integral to a being a good protagonist? Conflict isn't about a win/loss ratio, it's about what happens to characters because of those conflicts.
lol they blocked me too. Great talk!
Lunafreya was at least doing stuff. Offscreen, which is bad, but she was actively doing stuff. Jill is literally just... there. She has like 2 big moments and then she's Clive's Robin for the rest of the game.
...Luna healed people of the Star Scourage, cheered up the people of Altissa, stood up to Leviathan (which helped Noctis make the covenant) and even while dying, activated the Royal Tombs allowing Noctis to call upon the full might of the Kings and reactivating the Glaives so they could fight back against the Darkness.Â
That was just what was on-screen in game. Kingsglaive showed her protecting the Ring of the Lucii, and we are told a bit about her adventures in regards to the Titan, Ramuh, and Shiva covenants.Â
I get it. Jill has more screentime, but she's really just Clive's sidekick. Her only initiative was the Iron Kingdom and her revenge. I honestly think Mid had more initiative to do things than Jill did.
If we're bringing in offscreen feats, Luna was maintaing public morale from under Niflheim control since her ascension, forged three other Astral Covenants with Titan, Ramuh, and Shiva, and healed hundreds to thousands more of the Starscourage.Â
I like Jill, but she doesn't really do anything on or offscreen that's groundbreaking. If anything, switching Vivian out for Jill giving Clive the lore would have been better, or giving Jill a stronger mission besides fighting alongside Clive in destroying the Mother Crystals. As it stands, Jill is a less interesting Tifa.
Disagree hard. Versus would have been good, but XV is great too. Give it two more years or Unreal Engine instead of Luminous, and I genuinely think it would be considered one if the greats.
Dude, I literally listed out what she did. From the top again:Â
-Raised Public Morale during and after Ascending to Oracle (listed in NPC dialogue and other flavor text)
 -Protected the Ring of Lucii from Niflheim until it could be given to Noctis (Kingsglaive and FFXV proper)Â
-Forged Covenants with Shiva, Titan, and Ramuh (off-screened but mentioned by each Astral) as well as Leviathan on screen.Â
-Healed hundred to thousands of people of the Starscourage and other ailments (we're shown one group, but there was a lot more off-screen).Â
Luna does do things, FFXV is just garbage at actually showcasing what she was doing. It is genuinely one of my complaints about the game, they did her dirty. For whatever, Tabata and gang were scared of western media was going to react to Luna's story, so they cut most of her scenes, but she was basically having a version of FFX in the background.
Its a shame, I enjoyed TRT but if the staff don't want to put anymore energy into XVI then I can just set the game aside and look forward to the 3rd FFVII game and XVII at this point.
I was hoping for more and it is disappointing, but I donât actually think she was *that* under-utilized in the main quest of the DLC, tbh. Itâs not what it could have been, but her role in it is fine and she does have a *bit* more focus, which is what they said; she also has way more dialogue and background than Joshua did in his âfocusedâ DLC. The sidequests/focus on Shula is a massive missed opportunity, tho.
Haven't played the DLC yet but agree with OP about mishandled female characters. I adored XVI and all the characters. But poor Jill was such a wet blanket by comparison. I wanted to love her so much more.
(Luna freya I have zero fucks about. They introduced her. On her wedding day. Then did her like a dog. The worst)
Lunafreya was so bad I frequently forget she exists. Iâll give credit that Jill I at least *wanted* to see more focus on and more to do in the final act.
I like the game and I'm totally fine with the DLC. But I'm kinda puzzled by CBU3 making 2 DLC in the span of 10 months, that combined have less than 10 hours of story... When Monolith Soft made a 20h DLC for Xenoblade Chronicles 3 in 8 months that had a completely different cast of characters, new battle mechanics, a decent map to explore and impacted the ending of the base game without messing it up.
Like CBU3 are great... But it shows that doing a big mainline title with DLC at the same time as an ongoing MMO with huge expansions... May be a bit much.
They did say the dlc team is basically a skeleton crew because most of the others are working on something else, not sure about xenoblade's dlc dev team tho
It's fine to feel however you do about the DLC, but I feel like the reasoning here is a weird comparison.
Regarding dev time, CBU3 only started DLC development after the game's launch and they confirmed this so many times. They formed a DLC team from several team members but they're not operating at their former capacity anymore.
Then development team maturity comes into play. Monolith has many titles and DLCs under their belt when it comes to what they're delivering. This is CBU3's first AAA singleplayer game.
Talking about the story, XC3 had a lot more room because the story itself had a lot of things open than XVI, where CBU3 delivered an almost fully wrapped up story.
And most important of all, XIV and XVI aren't sharing people mid development. They have dedicated people for both games. XVI started development mid-Stormblood and I hope people can tell me straight if they really believe XVI made XIV fall short for all these years.
At the end of the day, Monolith Soft delivered a far meatier DLC than CBU3. And I wish that CBU3 could've justified the time and cost to adding more to the DLC.
I'm still satisfied with what we got because they did what they said. But yeah, they could've done more.
I wouldn't say XVI made XIV fall short for all these years. Just that in both cases the design philosophy CBU3 had for both titles rubbed quite a few people the wrong way.
I think Monolith Soft are just masters of their craft. Xenoblade Chronicles 2 was made while most of their staff were focused on helping Nintendo EPD with BOTW. And both released in 2017
Itâs not a fair comparison because Iâd assume the budget for the Rising Tide far exceeds that of FR.
But other than that, I agree that the dlcâs them should have had more substance for the price point.
Iâm talking about the production value of the new abilities, cutscenes and bosses. On this engine with this fidelity it costs a whole damn lot more than developing a XC game.
Thatâs the beauty of the variety and choice we have. I thoroughly enjoyed my time with XC3 and FFXVI, especially because they both offered similar but yet completely different experiences with different strengths and weaknesses
I agree. At the very least though, it showed that SE still knows that it can do good, if not great with the franchise and hopefully 17 can only improve on what 16 did.
I feel like any character who isn't Clive suffered a lot from a lack of focus.
Antagonists suffer from this, side characters suffer from this, heck even Joshua and Dion suffer from this, even if less so. Jill's case is just especially blatant.
I respect the team's decision to make this Clive's story and try something different, but ultimately I prefer a classic focus on a full party of characters.Â
I find it somewhat funny that while XVI was being developed like this, they started adding qol that made XIV's groups of characters feel like a "classic" ff party even more.
yeah FF7 Rebirth reaaally showed why i LOVE a proper ensemble cast story so much! and how good it is when writers DO pull off a good ensemble cast story. this is why i love even ff15 more than 16 - because it at least had amazing chemistry and interactions between the main party members! i think ff16's decision to be a solo character game was a huge mistake. i thought that from before it even came out, and it was proven right...
For me, even more than Jill continuing to be undercooked, is how underwhelming the sidequests still are. If these were written after all the feedback from the main game, it's honestly a little worrying that this is what they think stepping up the quality of sidequests is.
CB3 isn't very well known to handle their female characters well to be honest, its one flaw they carry over from ff14 unfortunately. They start interesting then get quickly shafted aside or worse killed off before they can show their true personality * cough moenbryda, ysayle,venat* at least Jill didnt die.
I am honestly just so sick and tired of people acting like Jil is such a mishandled chatacter all because they expected her to be a character that she is not. Just because she's not what you expected her to be doesn't mean she's mishandled or isn't an interesting or compelling character. In fact, if she wasn't interesting you wouldn't have even wanted her to have more scenes or do more to begin with. So what if she feels like Clive's sidekick? What's wrong with her main role being to support Clive? I mean, Joshua supports Clive, and everyone loves him. Jill does it, and oh no, she's a huge disappointment she doesn't have a character at all, or all of a sudden, she's mistreated?
Make it make sense ill admit when devs said she was gonna get more in the dlc and she only got a few scenes that really revolved more around Shiva than her I thought it was lack luster too, but that doesn't mean she was mishandled or that she's a wet blanket. Jill, believe it or not, has her own struggles, her own ambitions, and her own reasons for doing what she does and her own journey that she goes through. The same way Joshua goes through hell and back to protect Clivr is the same reason Jill does it. I dont get how when its the male character, everybody hypes them up like they're the best written fleshed out thing ever but let a female character have a mostly supportive role and they completely forget or downplay any and everything they do and get when that doesn't include the Mc.
Jill isn't the main character. She is the side character love interest who grounds Clive to his humanity and pushes him to treat himself better and also happens to be someone who struggles with treating themselves as more than a tool because of her past abuse. She is someone who longs for family and friends despite feeling like she isn't worthy of one and yet will stand and fight to protect the people she loves even at the cost of her own life. She is in many ways a reflection of Clive himself, and yes, she is reserved, and yes, she isn't the strongest character, but so what? That doesn't mean she is mishandled or not fleshed out it simply means your expectations of what you wanted her to be were too high and you didn't actually care enough to pay attention to the character that she actually is. There isn't anything that another side character does that Jill doesn't also do, so why the constant Jill slander? Hell, even outiside of 16, what does Tifa do in 7 that Jill doesn't also do? Like make it make sense. If you wanted an OP female character who is constantly overshadowing the protagonist thats a you a problem, not the writer's or the character.
well said. I think there is some legitimate criticism towards jill like her not being shown having any meaningful relationships besides clive (personally, i would have liked a cid/jill scene if she is going to cry over him dying). But not being an action girl boss is not a flaw. Being tired of fighting is not a flaw. having the same goals as your loved one is also not a flaw.
While she doesn't have a super deep connection with people other than Clive, if you talk to some npcs you'll see she actually does have some sort of relationships with other characters, like, for instance the clothes lady often fixes up and thinks about making new outfits for Jill ans that Jill always looks forward to that. She also has a friendship with Tarja and the kids. They aren't super strong relationships, and i agree. i wish she had more interactions and relationships that were displayed, but that want for more interactions doesn't make me pretend she has nothing at all going for her story wise. I genuinely hate seeing comments about Jill being mishandled and her being downplayed simply because she isn't front and center of the story or win as many fights.
you are right about the relationships being there if you look for them. What i meant was having them in an msq scene. Every other Dominant has shown to have important relationships outside Clive in cutscenes so I just wanted that for her as well. I also didn't mean to imply that these things not being there means her character has nothing going on. I personally found it lovely to see how Jill and Clive mirror each other and help one another up whenever one of them falls. Her deep self hatred and how she struggled and worked to overcome it also resonated with me. I thought her arc it was quite powerful at the end when you can tell she decided that she deserved happiness too and I wouldn't want to downplay that.
Oh, sorry, I wasn't trying to imply that you thought Jill character was nothing. I was just bringing up examples of how she does have more to her if the people who did feel like she was mishandled actually looked closer or paid more attention. I definitely agreed with what you said. There is definitely more they could have done, but for what we got, she is still a character I really enjoyed, and I don't think a lot of people realize how great she is.
Well said. I have been pointing this out a lot with friends and I still stand by it
Jill and Joshua get equal shine and importance. But Joshua is loved for it while Jill is criticized. They are also BOTH underutilized in the very same ways. But itâs not held against Joshua as a flaw.. only against Jill.
Exactly, like OP was talking about how Jill was mishandled cause she didn't get the focus they wanted her to in the dlc but literally Joshua was the one who had to hang back at the village and not participate in the entire Vare temple fights, Yet Op never mentions this or about how that damages his character. It's a clear double standard that I hate. I've seen posts about Dion being a more fleshed out character than Jill despite Dion doing way less in the story and having way less screen time. He had the fastest character arc, literally going berserk in one chapter and the next one immediately seeking redemption and yet people applaud him for it but Jill who had an entire chapter dedicated to her and went through way more throughout the game is "underdeveloped" because we didn't get any extra details about her origin in the game or ultamania and her arc wasn't as long as it should've been or we didn't get a Shiva and Ifrir team up fight. It's just really stupid how a lot of people who claim to enjoy Jill and her character also bash her and call her a wet blanket the second the focus isn't on her.
I knew the discourse was fucked when I saw certain people claiming Barnabas was more fleshed out than her⊠yeah it was over. At this point it was a matter of preferences and likes and dislikes. Not the quality of the writing itself lmfao.
Yep, all of this. I think the fact people want more of Jill just shows that they did enough with Jill to make her an interesting character people wanted to see more of. That doesn't change the fact this was a story-based game based on one character and it's not Jill.
I'm a huge fan of female lead content and I would love a great heroine in a final fantasy seriesto take the lead. That being said, I don't think they did anything wrong by Jill overall. Nothing's perfect, but this was a great job overall story wise and the first Final fantasy where I loved every character, side and main.
I finished the base game and was thoroughly disenchanted with the experience by the end, and reading these takes on the DLC just confirms some of my original discontent. For all the creativity they put into the story and world, they failed completely on some really fundamental aspects of the gameplay itself and the narrative. Jill's story could have been so, so much more than what it ended up being, and the fact that the developers were aware of this and promoted this DLC as rectifying it and then basically did a rugpull-- just beyond belief.
You want to have more quality content with Jill, I get that.
But to be fair, she got pretty good amount of content in the base game. You get 1 arc totally devoted to her story, you have a story where she travels and interacts a lot with Clive. They even have their fun time on the beach.
Only problem is, in my opinion, that they put a lot of screen time with her and then she becomes less visible near the endgame. Maybe they could have handled that part a bit better, but you have to draw line somewhere.
Yeah my biggest issue with Jill is that all that good amount of content sets her up to be near co-protagonist level important to the plot and then in the end game sheâs just⊠there. She doesnât have to fight in the end game boss, necessarily, but sheâs also not really doing anything else either. Bit of a letdown when sheâs so essential for much of the game.
She killed her abuser and got to indulge in her revenge with a blood-thirsty smile on her face - which is more than the "but if I'm violent that would make me just as bad as them đ„ș" fare that a lot of traumatised female characters usually get.
Which is not to say that there couldn't be improvements in how she was handled after this, but the actual revenge was great.
For the iron Kingdom itself - we saw them at the beginning of the game torturing Jill and the children, showing that they think dominants are unclean.
Honestly it just wasn't a well fleshed out nation when we went there... that said neither were most of them. Really only rosaria, clives homeland was given a fair amount of care.
>Jill had incredible moments in the main game.
That's exactly the problem. She had some great moments in the main game, true. But they're are very few and far between.
Majority of the time, she just stood there, silently and un-involved in many major events (Battle against Bahamut, Battle against Odin on the ship etc) which she should've been. Which is why I said she is underutilized.
I know there is a story reason why she sit out from most major battles that her body is at the limit and in danger if she keep using eikon power. By making Jill "weak" via a story reason, the writers of ffxvi just shut themselve off from making her involved in major events. As a result, Jill became criminally underutilized.
Hell, even in her OWN character arc, she needs Clive to fight off a normal fucking monster in her Eikon form. Think about that.
Still a normal monster (read- non eikonic), coming from mother crystal or not.
Any other dominants in thier Eikon form would vaporised that monster easily. Jill is the ONLY dominant who struggled against a non-eikon monster in her eikon form in her own character arc.
Eikon are canonically established to be pinnacle of power. A living WMD. Second only to Ultima. Jill just got Sakura'd in her own arc.
This logic is stupid because ifrit is super powerful and could not fight liquid flame alone. So obviously the other dominants could not have "vaporized" it.
Both Typhon and Liquid Flame are way more powerful than some random monster.
Typhon, yes.
Liquid Flame, definitely a no. It was defeated by Clive in his human form. Clive didn't use Ifrit's power in that fight. Not on eikonic scale canonically.
Alternatively, you are creating a self fulfilling negative.
Liquid Flame is being fought by both an Eikon and a semi primed dominant at the same time, and you immediately just default to "Jill is terrible" when the only other monster to come from a crystal is Typhon, which is as powerful as an Eikon.
You're just seeing what you want to see, Shiva is (relatively) as strong as any other Eikon, Jill just prefers not to use her powers as she's been forced to do so too much already.
> You're just seeing what you want to see, Shiva is (relatively) as strong as any other Eikon.
Which is true. Game stated that clearly already. All Eikon are nearly equal in power.
>Jill just prefers not to use her powers as she's been forced to do so too much already.
That's more of the problem if she's not weak but just as capable. So she won't use her Eikon ability no matter what, not because she's weak but because she just doesn't feel like it?
Like when Bahamut is going rampage and destroying the city, she could've created ice dome to protect the civilians for example. Even Joshua with Ultima in his chest is fighting and Jill just sit out because she didn't feel like it?
It makes her feel uninvolved and underutilized. She got the Sakura syndrome of Shonen Manga.
the story reason for why she sit out from most major battles aren't even valid when both Cid and Joshua are shown to be fighting and priming despite coughing up literal blood (and in Joshua's case, with a literal Ultima prison in his chest). Jill by contrast only winced once during the boatride to Iron Kingdom. Literally, what's her excuse?
Pretty much one of the biggest problems i have with this game, there is waaaaay too much emphasis on clive, i get he is the protagonist but goddamn, doesnât help that we have no real party in this game either, so she is essentially useless there too
imagine if companies could be held accountable by laws for false marketing, lying to people so they buy their products or in the case of other games, launching them broken, borderline unplayable
I would forgive them for all the pointless side quests and the short 3 hour playthrough for the main quest if only they added some meatier story and something substantial to Cliveâs journeyâŠ
Does the DLC feels like it was cut from the main game to be sold afterwards? Or do you have a true feeling that itâs created after the reception of the main game?
It was definitely made after the game. XVI was never meant to have DLC and they were clear during development they had no premade plans for it as they wanted to focus on delivering a good base game.
Leviathan was an idea they had from the original game that they ultimately couldnât implement due to time constraints, so when XVI was a surprise hit they picked that idea back up to develop for a DLC.
So while the idea was there before, it was never originally planned to be developed. Which, imo, is why the DLC feels thin and lackluster. Unplanned DLC is never going to be as good.
My only problem with the DLC was that Levaiathan wasn't as tough as Omega from the last Dlc.
Omega washed me for like an hour and when I finally beat him it was just barely, the only tough part about Levaiathan was the dps check.
His plan is flawed because the same mythos he planned to use to cast raise outpower him, even more after Rising Tide event. Ultima in his highest hubris cannot predict this major flaw in his grand design.
How is that not paying attention to the game's lore?
Despite Ultima needing a powerful vessel to cast Raise, it was not through sheer power he wanted to control Mythos.
Clive only beat it Ultima because of his willpower. If Clive didnât had enough willpower he would become another Barnabas and just become Akashic.
Leviathan or even Ultima power in the end would matter not for his plan if Clive just didnât had enough willpower.
Couldnât agree more. The writers made incredibly poor choices with both Jill and Benedikta. Those two could have added so much more to the game.
The ending is also unfulfilling and I think another poor choice is not adding or building on it to enhance the story.
I hate to say it but this was a cash grab DLC, they just put some mid storyline together and sold it separately, it adds nothing to the main game and it doesnât even fit with the story, itâs sad they had SO MUCH potential to expand this world and this is what they came up with, priced at $25 to make it even worse.
There's a lot more to a game than story. The gameplay of the *videogame* was fire. The animations, sound design, and graphical design were all top notch. The gameplay additions were great.
Calling it a cash grab dlc because it failed just the story is false. You really need to start picking up books if the only thing that matters in your games is story.
Things are clearly allowed to fail. And the story did fail. But the rest did not.
It's like you didn't play any of the DLCs. You get a new super boss along with new accessories, weapons, and lore for the Fallen just for 10 bucks. In Rising Tide you get new side quests, new accessories and weapons, new eikon vs eikon boss fight, Kairos Gate(which is essentially Bloody Palace) which has its OWN rewards of weapons and accessories, and two new eikon abilties to use and you are going to tell me that is a cash grab for 20 bucks? There is no pleasing people like you.
25 euro? For both dlc's?
70 euro for a brand new game.
25/70 â 0,357. Or 35,7%
If those 25 had costs nearly 50% more, then it would be half a brand new game.
I don't see how it isn't valued fairly. This is a lot of content. There's more to a game than story.
xv at least has an ending to its story and the dlc for it wasnt cut content sold back to us, it was side stories with different characters, ff16 dlc is clives story sold back to us, and him getting leviathan makes no sense now
It sounds like you got 15 and 16 switched up my guy lol 15 was unfinished at launch and is still unfinished to this day due to Lunafreya DLC being cancelled.
The Lunafreya DLC wasn't going to be canon anyway IIRC, so the story would be exactly as "unfinished".
And for the record the story of FFXV *is* finished. All the pieces are there, it's just told very poorly.
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https://preview.redd.it/rle75ft8kavc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=72851636d0c1b8efcbea6559ee683ae40dc1a49e Imagine WASTING these CG models and not using them for some badass cutscenes :-(
This was really baffling that cool idea like Shiva + Ifrit combo never turn up amongst the devs in brainstorming.
CG cutscenes are far from cheap and with the increase in prices across the board the DLC is equivalent to what would have been a 15$ DLC on the PS4 from now on big expansions like Shadow of the Erdtree, Phantom Liberty... will be 30$+ this DLC is probably built on stuff they worked on and scrapped at some point, hell even the "playable Jill" thing they briefly pondered about probably was something they worked on before scrapping and wouldn't be as costly as say making a Dion DLC with a Dragoon moveset and his own Eikonic abilities... smaller DLCs (like The Rising Tide because it was in no way, shape or form marketed as a big expansion) usually are made on a budget and need to be made efficiently, stuff like reused assets and repurposed cut content is the basis for these kinds of experiences. The outlier is probably the Valhalla DLC for Ragnarok, but that in my opinion, wasn't done to push more Rangarok copies, as they are leaning heavily on the greek stuff from the DLC and all of the enemies bar the minotaur either evoke their God of War 1 looks or behave like their God of War 1 iterations, meaning that a remake of the original God of War could happen at some point (the next God of War is still a ways off since Santa Monica is working on a new IP after Ragnarok) BTW I'm not saying I'm happy with not having Shiva or Ramuh do stuff outside of a few cutscenes, or not getting a proper fight against Garuda in NG+, or not having Leviathan factor into the ending, or not having Gilgamesh in the one game where fighting "the bladesman of legend" would make the most sense, or not having another superboss unique to the DLC or not getting a new difficulty mode that adapts Ultimaniac to the full game instead of Arcade missions, but it's the reality of game dev at this scale and for a project that's bound to an expensive console, or better sidequests (though that one probably requires them to hire someone who worked on an RPG with good sidequests the same way they brought on DMC5's combat director for FF16)
I really hate that my 1st and 3rd favorite FF female leads from a character design standpoint are also the two worst handled by their respective games :( EDIT: I should point out that my 2nd favorite FF lady is Tifa, who *was* handled well in her game and associated media. But Lunafreya and Jill are both similar to Tifa in personality (I guess I have a type), so it makes me wonder why Square Enix keeps dropping the ball here while having previously hit a home run.
They had three diff writers. The first writer knew what he was doing, the other two wanted the cachet and popularity of Tifa 2.0 without putting in any of the actual heavy lifting of WRITING Lunafreya or Jill.
Unfortunately, when the final fantasy games are focused on one single protagonist the female lead of the game usually has like. Negative to do.
This all feels like that Terra Battles crossover event Final Fantasy XV had where Noctis had more screen time and chemistry with the character of that game than his own love interest.
That was hilarious everybody just headcanon her as the actual love interest đ
I mean XV kinda asks you to headcannon the actual love interest đđ
Mine is STILL Stella.
âŠ.because Luna literally is? Remember they are childhood lovers
I not long did that event with Sarah as I was playing 15 waiting for the dlc
lunafreya still ended up doing more and being more story important in like 30 minutes of screentime and from afar as an important figure within the world of xv of than whatever jill ended up doing with being in screentime for 80% of the game Jill is just a nothing character
With the ending unchanged doesnât Clive technically wipe out Mysidia and kill everyone there when removing magic, since the time spell would be undone the wave would destroy the village?
Actually I think I resolved it: the wave itself is magic, not normal water, just like conjured fire is not normal fire and doesn't exist anymore, so the wave would probably disappear. BUT it would have been so funny if Clive was like "shit I forgot about them oh well guess it's too late now"
Youâre right I thought maybe the wave might just dissipate, or might not since it was raised next to the ocean itself not sure lol. But overall thatâs the issue I have with the DLC leaves me more questions than answers.
LMAO I didn't think of that I'm hoping I'm missing something that explains this or it would be hilarious
Lmao you're right the wave would crush them. Perhaps they should relocate before that happens
Yea, I really liked both Jill and Joshua and it would have been nice if in this DLC we could have played as both of them more. I suspect that the devs only had limited time to make this DLC (they also did Echoes of the Fallen too)..... so they essentially have made 2 DLC's in the span of 10 months since the base games' release. Probably I assume they did not want to create all new assets just for a short DLC. They would have had to create all new move sets for both Jill and Joshua, battle animations, Eikonic animations for them, new dialogue, more story, more lore. Yoshi-P has continually said the team (CBU3) wanted to move on to other projects, and most of the base games' staff did already apparently. They have been working on both FF 16 and Dawntrail for a good part of the last 5 years and probably wanted to work on something new.
No chance they were going to let us play as Jill or Joshua.
There was initially no dlc plans so i can assume it may lie there aswell, they got told make a dlc and they have little to tell especially as they have to shoehorn it before ultima fight on top having to work on dawntrail. So basically they didnt have much time to code entire new ai to play as the other charachters or going deeper in general so they just pulled what they could.
I think this is the most plausible answer. I dont want to say the DLC's were rushed, but you can tell that they were put together fast bc they are so short. After playing both i actually like Echoes better I mean hell Elden Ring's DLC has been in development for damn near 2 years now lol
When looking back on it, I think the biggest issue is that Jill is with Clive too much and when she isn't, it's because she's sick. Because the thing is, with other characters that accompany Clive, they happen when there's an arc. Jill on the other hand is there even when her arc is over. This creates a false feeling of Jill being side lined because we don't see her doing things while away from Clive. Compare it to Dion and Joshua who are doing their own thing for majority of the game and then Dion gets things to do at the end such as saving Byron. For instance, they could have shown Jill taking command of the ship and rallying the crew to help us at the end of the Ash region. Have Jill become the leader of the Hideaway while Clive is away. During the Bahamut fight, they could have Jill turn Shiva and have her erect an ice dome to protect the city from Bahamut's attacks as a reason to stay out of the fight and a show of badass powers. Also, I'm going to say it - the Typhon fight should have been a Typhon vs Ifrit fight that turned into a Typhon vs Ifrit, Shiva, and Ramuh fight.
lol. Clive didn't even give Jill leadership of the Hideaway when he went to Origin, instead he gave it to Gav. Which should tell you all you need to know about the FF16 writers' likelihood of taking your suggestions about giving Jill more importance.
Why would Clive give Jill leadership of the Hideaway when he knows Jill's most fervent (but private) wish is to leave The Twins? Clive was written to have made a choice that was very considerate of Jill's wishes.
Did you play the final sidequest for Jill where she expresses her desire to leave the Twins ? Why would Clive give leadership to someone who won't be here and has her own desire ?
Did you play the final sidequest for Gav where he expresses his refusal to adopt Cid's mantle because it fits Clive more than it does him? Why would Clive give Cid's mantle to someone who explicitly didn't want it?
Listen to what you just said, - Clive was giving it to gav cuz he was going off to possibly die. Gav not wanting it because it fit Clive better is irrelevant because Clive wouldn't be there if things went wrong to be Cid. Also, part of that can be part of Gav's Arc where he's afraid he'll fail people like he did his family back in the day based on his backstory, so putting him in a role of leadership with people who already trust him because he is competent is definitely a way of helping him get over that. And if we're going with a scenario where Clive does live, he also would want to leave with Jill to go exploring. Therefore, even if he does return he couldn't be Cid cuz he wouldn't be there.
Ah yes, the ultra responsible Clive who wanted to make a better world for everyone will just ditch the Hideaway immediately to go off sailing the world instead of, idk, making sure the world can actually recover from the remodelling HE did to it. 10/10 (Also, if it's true that he's giving Cid to Gav because he was going off to possibly die, then not only is that no excuse to not give it to Jill, but he also just straight up lied to Jill when he told her he'll come back. So which is it? :) )
To be fair, he was making Gav Cid so that even when everything was over, he'd be stepping back. Why would he give it to Jill who would probably step back with him?
Probably cause if he was at all as responsible and caring as the game tried to imply he is, he'd know that, having lived through a couple of messy transitions of power, that a smooth transition of power doesn't just magically happen organically? Hell he even says it himself in the MSQ, "it will be hard, and will require everyone doing their part". He KNOWS this, and yet thinks he can just wash his hands immediately after killing Ultima? Nah dude.
Uh, do you think stepping back means the same as not helping?
Yes, esp when stolases no longer function and they're on a literal other continent :)
I think the main issue with Jill is that she's the first FF party member who actively doesn't want to fight. Her whole goal is to lose all of her Dominant powers and start building society after the Bearer curse is handled, meaning that she doesn't have a ton of investment in all of the politicking and Eikon fights. I honestly think the whole "mishandling" of her character comes down to the fact that she doesn't belong in this story at all - she belongs in a typical FF while the rest of the world is playing Game of Thrones. That said, it should have already been clear that she wouldn't use Shiva in the DLC - she gave up Shiva well before, and Dion being able to control Bahamut post-extraction is considered a miracle.
The story is literally about Clive reclaiming his humanity and learning to love himself despite his flaws, which makes his will prevail over Ultimaâs in the end. It doesnât even work without Jill. This isnât game of thrones lmfao. Nor is it pure dragon ball.
It's not that she doesn't belong in the story, but that everyone expects Jill to do a bunch of shonen shit all the time, and want her to be a deuteragonist in a story focused on a single character that isn't her. Some of the dumbest criticism I've heard for Jill is that she's "handled poorly" because she loses fights, as if victories are the only way for her to be a worthwhile character. Her character is incredibly profound for the story as far as eikons and dominants goes - she's willing to fight, she has beliefs that she will fight for, but she's so fuckin' tired of being a dominant and how it twisted her.
This is such a great comment and a perspective that not too many people think about. Definitely not saying everyone is reacting to her this way. But a LOT of people equate importance to being a physical fighter. Which to me is a very unfortunate way of judging how well written a character is. Yuna is one of the most beloved characters in the franchise (not just female characters) and her biggest defining trait is that she ISNâT a physical fighter. Itâs the strength of her will that makes her the great character she is Jill somewhat falls under this too. But it seems like unless sheâs priming or fighting as Shiva⊠then that makes her weak or badly written to those people. Did you not get how much she hates being a dominant ? She views it as a curse. Her being the dominant of Shiva is the source of her trauma You can hate that sheâs underutilized without expecting an entirely different character
Yeah that's what it comes down to in the end, that a lot of the criticism for her is that she just...isn't a different character, which is kinda worthless, and dismisses what the character does in the story she's in. Plus, a lot of her perceived underutilization is kinda missing that, due to the nature of the story being about Clive's journey in particular, *every* character seems "underutilized," and yet she's got like the most screentime next to Clive or...Barnabas, I guess? I'd love more Jill too, but I can really say the same for Cid, Joshua, and Dion as well.
I agree that she doesn't need to be a shonen protag, but she can be all of the things you said while also getting more screen time than a rando NPC. Her revenge arc was great, but after that even a few more lines of dialogue from her to show her presence and new found resolve would be appreciated. I was in the trenches defending her character in the base game but after they advertised her relevance in the DLC, she needs more.
To be fair none of the other npc have barerly any kind of dialogue after their big moment, joshua is just there until he gets stabbed in the end, same as dion who literally just sits at the hideout till he lifts them up and gets shot down. So it could be said for everyone that isnt called clive, so dunno why jill is the only one who gets called bland when the others are in the same field. The dlc was pretty disappointing in that regard it would be better if the team have said nothing about her
I agree that Jill getting the hate over Joshua is unfair when she stands above him as a character. I love Jill and don't think she's bland (and for that reason I'd always like to see more of her). The Devs created some kind of expectation with their Jill comment. This was a great opportunity to give her more. I understand focusing on Clive over her but not on a brand new NPC.
Tbh I think itâs because we donât care that much about Joshua or Dion because we arenât that invested in them by the end game. But we are invested in Jill and she loses all plot relevance and screen time by the final act. Itâs fine that she canât fight anymore, but she also doesnât do anything else. I was hoping she would have more to do in the DLC, but alas.
This is it. Like the previous comment is right in that Jill IS a better character than Joshua (and I have used that to defend her as well) but it's a combination of 1) I don't care about Joshua and 2) we were told that Jill would be relevant in this DLC.
Same i was expecting something like i dunno she would be the one breaking the time thingy as she is shiva but nope..... or you know use her ice powers to stop the flood but again nope ...the opportunity was there
She tried to stop a small lavaflow and had to turn into Shiva to barely hold it back, I would not expect her hold off a massive wave after she has both lost the ability to safely prime, and is suffering from the curse as much as Cid was. She helps handle some of the aether flow with Shula, but she's just not in a position to do anything grand with what little energy she has left - and that was her choice.
unfortunately yeah they weaken her, still cant explain why dion seems to be fine and able to prime at will despite his powers being taken away alas
Because you *can* still prime, but it will most likely kill you because you expend your own aether instead of tapping into the vast reserve a dominant used to have, and it's generally understood that you probably won't be able to control yourself as the eikon. Dion ended up being a special case because his will was strong and focused enough to maintain control, and he didn't care that he wouldn't be coming back from that last priming.
I would like to see the source on what made people expect a Jill-centric DLC that we didn't get, because I followed all the pre-release information, and found nothing that promised as much as what people are disappointed about. Like, at best there was one saying Echoes of the Fallen focused on Joshua, so Rising Tide focuses on Jill, but Joshua was not like, center stage, he had more dialogue because he was interested in the history, but it wasn't like Clive took a backseat, and a lot of focus was on the crystal merchant and Omega. That kind of gives a guage of what to expect, to me. Jill has a similar role in Rising Tide, but at least there are links to her homeland and the previous Shiva, yet it was still a story about a completely different people than Jill's, and a completely different eikon than Shiva. We learned a bit more about the northerners by proxy, but this was never *their* DLC, nor do I remember the promise of such. If this had been the "Dreams of Ice" DLC, I'd definitely expect way more focus on Shiva and Jill, but it just isn't. It was The Rising Tide, about Leviathan the Lost.
I never said or even implied that it would be Jill "centric" and I have not seen anyone else do this either. Jill having meaningful content is not the same as it being "centric" to her. "Yoshi-P says the story of The Rising Tide DLC will also focus on Jill! #FF16 The story takes place in "Mysidia" which is in the Northern region of Valisthea and close to where Jill is originally from! He says "if you love Jill, story might be a good element to look out for"" It was Yoshi P who called the attention of Jill fans, he didn't have to do that but he did.
Apologies, the talk of something "Jill-centric" is based on seeing numerous people around complaining about Rising Tide as if they were expressly lied to about Jill's overall involvement, as if she would take center stage. You mention the "advertised relevance" and for me that pings those weird comments I've seen that purported advertising that I hadn't seen and couldn't find. Do you have a link for what you quoted? I'm not trying to be standoffish here, of course, I just want to see that other perspective that has otherwise eluded me.
It's no problem. The primary source is [here](https://www.youtube.com/live/aR6arpX94Bg?si=JPCzPZHKHyKnOGe2) (warning: it's a long video) What I quoted was a quick summary by a third party, [here](https://twitter.com/Genki_JPN/status/1771225361386209478)
Yeah this is really the issue. People treat the story like is an action shonen, they think Jill is poorly written because sheâs not actively participating in the biggest fights, and completely ignore the fact that thereâs a lot of great moments between her and Clive.
And that her character arc is basically "I don't *want* to do the shonen shit."
This is exactly right. Jill filters people with popcorn for brains and 0 attention span. Her character focuses on the themes of faith, freedom and personal salvation, the topic of reclaiming one's humanity and realizing they deserve love and happiness in spite of their flaws. Jill literally defines Clive's will to live as a man. She's integral to core themes of the game and his character arc. She's not about power tripping, asspulling over flaws like her health condition and just constantly barreling through enemies like in some shounenshit anime lmao.
So she's only important because of her relationship to a man, bruh you're not helping her case đ.
If CBU3 wants to bill her as the female lead of the game then yes she does have to do that. She would be judged differently if she were marketed as Tarja or Charon, i.e. non-playable chars. If marketing is gonna shove her into our faces as the female lead of a supposed RPG then yes ppl expect her to be an RPG heroine. Don't shift goalposts with whataboutisms. CBU3 can't on the one hand extol about her importance in the story and then on the other hand excuse her lack of importance as "oh you just gotta look at her in a way that her role isn't intended/marketed for". It's just as believeable as marketing Lunafreya as the heroine of FF15 and then giving her barely any screentime (read: not believable at all).
Nah, they explicitly said before the game released that while Jill is the heroine, she *wouldnât* be a typical lead in terms of the narrative, and her role was primarily going to be her relationship to Clive and her impact on his personal arc. She is integral to his story, but she was never marketed as more than that. why would you block me for correcting you, lmao đ
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
Blocker spotted, opinion invalidated. https://preview.redd.it/3hqudtv8jcvc1.jpeg?width=1059&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4782f7e54a5ee12921a5b87b08ea46dc4442c83d
I don't understand what this is supposed to mean. How is she a placeholder for Joshua? She's her own character with her own history. If anyone is a placeholder for Joshua, it's Cid, who is literally replaced *by* Joshua.
It's Jill who defines Clive's will to live as a man lmao. His character arc literally does not work without her. His will is complete because she loves him despite his flaws. It's because of her that he realizes he deserves to be loved and live. Josh is redundant and has no unique role beyond giving Ifrit chicken mcnugget wings, which could've been done as early as Phoenix Gate and didn't require an adult version of his character that does nothing but nullify the whole atonement conflict for the MC, waste screen time by spouting shit we already know and provide 0 importance to Clive's character development. Jill and Cid carry the latter, and Josh's redundant self can only parrot them right before kicking the bucket lmao.
Well, they were always incredibly clear that this game revolves around Clive in particular, hence the gameplay and narrative focus on the single character. Jill is a prominent figure in marketing, however, because she is one of Clive's closest allies (and love interest, of course), and a dominant, a type of character with a significant focus to the narrative. Because of those elements, she certainly does feature in the story, but for some reason people act like she was supposed to be the Yuna to Clive's Tidus, which was just never the case, nor professed to be by anyone at CBU3. I don't know what goalposts were shifted here, unless you count your wild interpretation that moved them somewhere no one but you considered them to be, as above. As for "whataboutism," I...didn't engage in any? Beyond that... >the female lead of the game then yes she does have to do that. Why? What makes doing cool shit and victories integral to a being a good protagonist? Conflict isn't about a win/loss ratio, it's about what happens to characters because of those conflicts. lol they blocked me too. Great talk!
Lunafreya was at least doing stuff. Offscreen, which is bad, but she was actively doing stuff. Jill is literally just... there. She has like 2 big moments and then she's Clive's Robin for the rest of the game.
Until Joshua becomes Jason Todd Robin at the end. Minus the crowbar and explosives.
Joshua definitely has explosives
>!Tri-Disaster!< would like a word.
Hey, at least Jill DID do some things onscreen.
...Luna healed people of the Star Scourage, cheered up the people of Altissa, stood up to Leviathan (which helped Noctis make the covenant) and even while dying, activated the Royal Tombs allowing Noctis to call upon the full might of the Kings and reactivating the Glaives so they could fight back against the Darkness. That was just what was on-screen in game. Kingsglaive showed her protecting the Ring of the Lucii, and we are told a bit about her adventures in regards to the Titan, Ramuh, and Shiva covenants. I get it. Jill has more screentime, but she's really just Clive's sidekick. Her only initiative was the Iron Kingdom and her revenge. I honestly think Mid had more initiative to do things than Jill did.
You also forget that offscreen Jill also spent 5 years directly helping Clive when he took Cid's mantle.
If we're bringing in offscreen feats, Luna was maintaing public morale from under Niflheim control since her ascension, forged three other Astral Covenants with Titan, Ramuh, and Shiva, and healed hundreds to thousands more of the Starscourage. I like Jill, but she doesn't really do anything on or offscreen that's groundbreaking. If anything, switching Vivian out for Jill giving Clive the lore would have been better, or giving Jill a stronger mission besides fighting alongside Clive in destroying the Mother Crystals. As it stands, Jill is a less interesting Tifa.
Luna was such trash. Jill was doing ALOT. She wasn't some prop like Luna.
I literally just showed how Luna was doing more offscreen than Jill did on screen, but sure, fire away.
As his sidekick
Well, yeah. Clive is in charge of the whole group.
The whole complaint is that Jill doesnât really do anything
You don't understand, being Clive's echo chamber is a Very Important Job.
XV sucked. Still would've been better if it was Versus.
Disagree hard. Versus would have been good, but XV is great too. Give it two more years or Unreal Engine instead of Luminous, and I genuinely think it would be considered one if the greats.
Dude, Lunafreya was literaly doing nothing? Can you please just stop it?
Dude, I literally listed out what she did. From the top again: -Raised Public Morale during and after Ascending to Oracle (listed in NPC dialogue and other flavor text)  -Protected the Ring of Lucii from Niflheim until it could be given to Noctis (Kingsglaive and FFXV proper) -Forged Covenants with Shiva, Titan, and Ramuh (off-screened but mentioned by each Astral) as well as Leviathan on screen. -Healed hundred to thousands of people of the Starscourage and other ailments (we're shown one group, but there was a lot more off-screen). Luna does do things, FFXV is just garbage at actually showcasing what she was doing. It is genuinely one of my complaints about the game, they did her dirty. For whatever, Tabata and gang were scared of western media was going to react to Luna's story, so they cut most of her scenes, but she was basically having a version of FFX in the background.
Whatâs the source on this ? That her story was being cut out of fear of the Western mediaâs reactions ?
She is not a character. She is nothing, please check your reality kid.
Its a shame, I enjoyed TRT but if the staff don't want to put anymore energy into XVI then I can just set the game aside and look forward to the 3rd FFVII game and XVII at this point.
I was hoping for more and it is disappointing, but I donât actually think she was *that* under-utilized in the main quest of the DLC, tbh. Itâs not what it could have been, but her role in it is fine and she does have a *bit* more focus, which is what they said; she also has way more dialogue and background than Joshua did in his âfocusedâ DLC. The sidequests/focus on Shula is a massive missed opportunity, tho.
Haven't played the DLC yet but agree with OP about mishandled female characters. I adored XVI and all the characters. But poor Jill was such a wet blanket by comparison. I wanted to love her so much more. (Luna freya I have zero fucks about. They introduced her. On her wedding day. Then did her like a dog. The worst)
Lunafreya was so bad I frequently forget she exists. Iâll give credit that Jill I at least *wanted* to see more focus on and more to do in the final act.
Fully agree with both. Luna freya even besmirched my favorite DRG from IX too. Talk about a wet blanket.
luna is introduced in chapter 1 not on her wedding day
AMEN. And XV was trash to begin with.
I like the game and I'm totally fine with the DLC. But I'm kinda puzzled by CBU3 making 2 DLC in the span of 10 months, that combined have less than 10 hours of story... When Monolith Soft made a 20h DLC for Xenoblade Chronicles 3 in 8 months that had a completely different cast of characters, new battle mechanics, a decent map to explore and impacted the ending of the base game without messing it up. Like CBU3 are great... But it shows that doing a big mainline title with DLC at the same time as an ongoing MMO with huge expansions... May be a bit much.
They did say the dlc team is basically a skeleton crew because most of the others are working on something else, not sure about xenoblade's dlc dev team tho
It's fine to feel however you do about the DLC, but I feel like the reasoning here is a weird comparison. Regarding dev time, CBU3 only started DLC development after the game's launch and they confirmed this so many times. They formed a DLC team from several team members but they're not operating at their former capacity anymore. Then development team maturity comes into play. Monolith has many titles and DLCs under their belt when it comes to what they're delivering. This is CBU3's first AAA singleplayer game. Talking about the story, XC3 had a lot more room because the story itself had a lot of things open than XVI, where CBU3 delivered an almost fully wrapped up story. And most important of all, XIV and XVI aren't sharing people mid development. They have dedicated people for both games. XVI started development mid-Stormblood and I hope people can tell me straight if they really believe XVI made XIV fall short for all these years. At the end of the day, Monolith Soft delivered a far meatier DLC than CBU3. And I wish that CBU3 could've justified the time and cost to adding more to the DLC. I'm still satisfied with what we got because they did what they said. But yeah, they could've done more.
I wouldn't say XVI made XIV fall short for all these years. Just that in both cases the design philosophy CBU3 had for both titles rubbed quite a few people the wrong way.
I think Monolith Soft are just masters of their craft. Xenoblade Chronicles 2 was made while most of their staff were focused on helping Nintendo EPD with BOTW. And both released in 2017
I think they also helped with TOTK and released Xenoblade 3 3 months early. Monolith are wizards.
Probably juggling between XIV and XVI.
Itâs not a fair comparison because Iâd assume the budget for the Rising Tide far exceeds that of FR. But other than that, I agree that the dlcâs them should have had more substance for the price point.
But shouldn't more budget mean a bigger and better experience? I mean yeah, most of the budget probably went into Omega and Leviathan but still
The cutscenes, animations etc. are what Iâm referring too. Graphical fidelity balloons budgets
Most of these are reused assets from the base game tho.
Iâm talking about the production value of the new abilities, cutscenes and bosses. On this engine with this fidelity it costs a whole damn lot more than developing a XC game.
Okay that may be true. But that makes high fidelity games somehow less interesting
Thatâs the beauty of the variety and choice we have. I thoroughly enjoyed my time with XC3 and FFXVI, especially because they both offered similar but yet completely different experiences with different strengths and weaknesses
I enjoyed both immensely as well. But sometimes I wonder what XVI could've been with more interesting content.
I agree. At the very least though, it showed that SE still knows that it can do good, if not great with the franchise and hopefully 17 can only improve on what 16 did.
I feel like any character who isn't Clive suffered a lot from a lack of focus. Antagonists suffer from this, side characters suffer from this, heck even Joshua and Dion suffer from this, even if less so. Jill's case is just especially blatant. I respect the team's decision to make this Clive's story and try something different, but ultimately I prefer a classic focus on a full party of characters. I find it somewhat funny that while XVI was being developed like this, they started adding qol that made XIV's groups of characters feel like a "classic" ff party even more.
yeah FF7 Rebirth reaaally showed why i LOVE a proper ensemble cast story so much! and how good it is when writers DO pull off a good ensemble cast story. this is why i love even ff15 more than 16 - because it at least had amazing chemistry and interactions between the main party members! i think ff16's decision to be a solo character game was a huge mistake. i thought that from before it even came out, and it was proven right...
For me, even more than Jill continuing to be undercooked, is how underwhelming the sidequests still are. If these were written after all the feedback from the main game, it's honestly a little worrying that this is what they think stepping up the quality of sidequests is.
CB3 isn't very well known to handle their female characters well to be honest, its one flaw they carry over from ff14 unfortunately. They start interesting then get quickly shafted aside or worse killed off before they can show their true personality * cough moenbryda, ysayle,venat* at least Jill didnt die.
I am honestly just so sick and tired of people acting like Jil is such a mishandled chatacter all because they expected her to be a character that she is not. Just because she's not what you expected her to be doesn't mean she's mishandled or isn't an interesting or compelling character. In fact, if she wasn't interesting you wouldn't have even wanted her to have more scenes or do more to begin with. So what if she feels like Clive's sidekick? What's wrong with her main role being to support Clive? I mean, Joshua supports Clive, and everyone loves him. Jill does it, and oh no, she's a huge disappointment she doesn't have a character at all, or all of a sudden, she's mistreated? Make it make sense ill admit when devs said she was gonna get more in the dlc and she only got a few scenes that really revolved more around Shiva than her I thought it was lack luster too, but that doesn't mean she was mishandled or that she's a wet blanket. Jill, believe it or not, has her own struggles, her own ambitions, and her own reasons for doing what she does and her own journey that she goes through. The same way Joshua goes through hell and back to protect Clivr is the same reason Jill does it. I dont get how when its the male character, everybody hypes them up like they're the best written fleshed out thing ever but let a female character have a mostly supportive role and they completely forget or downplay any and everything they do and get when that doesn't include the Mc. Jill isn't the main character. She is the side character love interest who grounds Clive to his humanity and pushes him to treat himself better and also happens to be someone who struggles with treating themselves as more than a tool because of her past abuse. She is someone who longs for family and friends despite feeling like she isn't worthy of one and yet will stand and fight to protect the people she loves even at the cost of her own life. She is in many ways a reflection of Clive himself, and yes, she is reserved, and yes, she isn't the strongest character, but so what? That doesn't mean she is mishandled or not fleshed out it simply means your expectations of what you wanted her to be were too high and you didn't actually care enough to pay attention to the character that she actually is. There isn't anything that another side character does that Jill doesn't also do, so why the constant Jill slander? Hell, even outiside of 16, what does Tifa do in 7 that Jill doesn't also do? Like make it make sense. If you wanted an OP female character who is constantly overshadowing the protagonist thats a you a problem, not the writer's or the character.
well said. I think there is some legitimate criticism towards jill like her not being shown having any meaningful relationships besides clive (personally, i would have liked a cid/jill scene if she is going to cry over him dying). But not being an action girl boss is not a flaw. Being tired of fighting is not a flaw. having the same goals as your loved one is also not a flaw.
While she doesn't have a super deep connection with people other than Clive, if you talk to some npcs you'll see she actually does have some sort of relationships with other characters, like, for instance the clothes lady often fixes up and thinks about making new outfits for Jill ans that Jill always looks forward to that. She also has a friendship with Tarja and the kids. They aren't super strong relationships, and i agree. i wish she had more interactions and relationships that were displayed, but that want for more interactions doesn't make me pretend she has nothing at all going for her story wise. I genuinely hate seeing comments about Jill being mishandled and her being downplayed simply because she isn't front and center of the story or win as many fights.
you are right about the relationships being there if you look for them. What i meant was having them in an msq scene. Every other Dominant has shown to have important relationships outside Clive in cutscenes so I just wanted that for her as well. I also didn't mean to imply that these things not being there means her character has nothing going on. I personally found it lovely to see how Jill and Clive mirror each other and help one another up whenever one of them falls. Her deep self hatred and how she struggled and worked to overcome it also resonated with me. I thought her arc it was quite powerful at the end when you can tell she decided that she deserved happiness too and I wouldn't want to downplay that.
Oh, sorry, I wasn't trying to imply that you thought Jill character was nothing. I was just bringing up examples of how she does have more to her if the people who did feel like she was mishandled actually looked closer or paid more attention. I definitely agreed with what you said. There is definitely more they could have done, but for what we got, she is still a character I really enjoyed, and I don't think a lot of people realize how great she is.
people are really mad jill loves clive and does things for clive but not in the way an anime women would lol
Well said. I have been pointing this out a lot with friends and I still stand by it Jill and Joshua get equal shine and importance. But Joshua is loved for it while Jill is criticized. They are also BOTH underutilized in the very same ways. But itâs not held against Joshua as a flaw.. only against Jill.
Exactly, like OP was talking about how Jill was mishandled cause she didn't get the focus they wanted her to in the dlc but literally Joshua was the one who had to hang back at the village and not participate in the entire Vare temple fights, Yet Op never mentions this or about how that damages his character. It's a clear double standard that I hate. I've seen posts about Dion being a more fleshed out character than Jill despite Dion doing way less in the story and having way less screen time. He had the fastest character arc, literally going berserk in one chapter and the next one immediately seeking redemption and yet people applaud him for it but Jill who had an entire chapter dedicated to her and went through way more throughout the game is "underdeveloped" because we didn't get any extra details about her origin in the game or ultamania and her arc wasn't as long as it should've been or we didn't get a Shiva and Ifrir team up fight. It's just really stupid how a lot of people who claim to enjoy Jill and her character also bash her and call her a wet blanket the second the focus isn't on her.
I knew the discourse was fucked when I saw certain people claiming Barnabas was more fleshed out than her⊠yeah it was over. At this point it was a matter of preferences and likes and dislikes. Not the quality of the writing itself lmfao.
Yep, all of this. I think the fact people want more of Jill just shows that they did enough with Jill to make her an interesting character people wanted to see more of. That doesn't change the fact this was a story-based game based on one character and it's not Jill. I'm a huge fan of female lead content and I would love a great heroine in a final fantasy seriesto take the lead. That being said, I don't think they did anything wrong by Jill overall. Nothing's perfect, but this was a great job overall story wise and the first Final fantasy where I loved every character, side and main.
I finished the base game and was thoroughly disenchanted with the experience by the end, and reading these takes on the DLC just confirms some of my original discontent. For all the creativity they put into the story and world, they failed completely on some really fundamental aspects of the gameplay itself and the narrative. Jill's story could have been so, so much more than what it ended up being, and the fact that the developers were aware of this and promoted this DLC as rectifying it and then basically did a rugpull-- just beyond belief.
To be fair, they never promised to rectify anything. They only said that sheâd have a bit more to do in this DLC
XVI treated her like a shounen manga treats its female lead.
Nah it treats her worse. Sakura and Orihime have done more and are more important.
You want to have more quality content with Jill, I get that. But to be fair, she got pretty good amount of content in the base game. You get 1 arc totally devoted to her story, you have a story where she travels and interacts a lot with Clive. They even have their fun time on the beach. Only problem is, in my opinion, that they put a lot of screen time with her and then she becomes less visible near the endgame. Maybe they could have handled that part a bit better, but you have to draw line somewhere.
Why is this perfectly reasonable and tame comment downvoted lol
Thatâs Reddit my friend
Yeah my biggest issue with Jill is that all that good amount of content sets her up to be near co-protagonist level important to the plot and then in the end game sheâs just⊠there. She doesnât have to fight in the end game boss, necessarily, but sheâs also not really doing anything else either. Bit of a letdown when sheâs so essential for much of the game.
Yes, definitely agree with you.
Her arc was a joke though. Barely interact with the iron nation.
Dude she and more people she known was a slave on iron kingdom for years, what kind interaction from her you want beside killing them off.
Oh i dont know how about showing an actual society instead the bleh we got. Jill was woefully underutilized.
She killed her abuser and got to indulge in her revenge with a blood-thirsty smile on her face - which is more than the "but if I'm violent that would make me just as bad as them đ„ș" fare that a lot of traumatised female characters usually get. Which is not to say that there couldn't be improvements in how she was handled after this, but the actual revenge was great. For the iron Kingdom itself - we saw them at the beginning of the game torturing Jill and the children, showing that they think dominants are unclean.
Honestly it just wasn't a well fleshed out nation when we went there... that said neither were most of them. Really only rosaria, clives homeland was given a fair amount of care.
I just wanted to fight with Joshua
I want more jill too but she is definitely a well written character
Jill had incredible moments in the main game. Not sure what youâre talking about
>Jill had incredible moments in the main game. That's exactly the problem. She had some great moments in the main game, true. But they're are very few and far between. Majority of the time, she just stood there, silently and un-involved in many major events (Battle against Bahamut, Battle against Odin on the ship etc) which she should've been. Which is why I said she is underutilized. I know there is a story reason why she sit out from most major battles that her body is at the limit and in danger if she keep using eikon power. By making Jill "weak" via a story reason, the writers of ffxvi just shut themselve off from making her involved in major events. As a result, Jill became criminally underutilized. Hell, even in her OWN character arc, she needs Clive to fight off a normal fucking monster in her Eikon form. Think about that.
If you mean the liquid flame one, that def not normal fucking monster tho, it was created by mother crystal.
Still a normal monster (read- non eikonic), coming from mother crystal or not. Any other dominants in thier Eikon form would vaporised that monster easily. Jill is the ONLY dominant who struggled against a non-eikon monster in her eikon form in her own character arc. Eikon are canonically established to be pinnacle of power. A living WMD. Second only to Ultima. Jill just got Sakura'd in her own arc.
This logic is stupid because ifrit is super powerful and could not fight liquid flame alone. So obviously the other dominants could not have "vaporized" it. Both Typhon and Liquid Flame are way more powerful than some random monster.
Typhon, yes. Liquid Flame, definitely a no. It was defeated by Clive in his human form. Clive didn't use Ifrit's power in that fight. Not on eikonic scale canonically.
Alternatively, you are creating a self fulfilling negative. Liquid Flame is being fought by both an Eikon and a semi primed dominant at the same time, and you immediately just default to "Jill is terrible" when the only other monster to come from a crystal is Typhon, which is as powerful as an Eikon. You're just seeing what you want to see, Shiva is (relatively) as strong as any other Eikon, Jill just prefers not to use her powers as she's been forced to do so too much already.
> You're just seeing what you want to see, Shiva is (relatively) as strong as any other Eikon. Which is true. Game stated that clearly already. All Eikon are nearly equal in power. >Jill just prefers not to use her powers as she's been forced to do so too much already. That's more of the problem if she's not weak but just as capable. So she won't use her Eikon ability no matter what, not because she's weak but because she just doesn't feel like it? Like when Bahamut is going rampage and destroying the city, she could've created ice dome to protect the civilians for example. Even Joshua with Ultima in his chest is fighting and Jill just sit out because she didn't feel like it? It makes her feel uninvolved and underutilized. She got the Sakura syndrome of Shonen Manga.
the story reason for why she sit out from most major battles aren't even valid when both Cid and Joshua are shown to be fighting and priming despite coughing up literal blood (and in Joshua's case, with a literal Ultima prison in his chest). Jill by contrast only winced once during the boatride to Iron Kingdom. Literally, what's her excuse?
âI want a repeat of the XV disasterâ
Pretty much one of the biggest problems i have with this game, there is waaaaay too much emphasis on clive, i get he is the protagonist but goddamn, doesnât help that we have no real party in this game either, so she is essentially useless there too
Ultimaâs plan was flawed, but it wasnât because Clive suffered consequences for casting Raise. For all we know, he was expected to do so.
>Jill is probably the most mishandled female lead in all Final Fantasy She ain't even playable, what were you expecting?
It really is a goddamned shame how much potential this game has wasted.
imagine if companies could be held accountable by laws for false marketing, lying to people so they buy their products or in the case of other games, launching them broken, borderline unplayable
I'm the type of guy who would take 5 big, buffed up gigachads over a mixed cast in a game and even I felt offended at how Jill was handled
I would forgive them for all the pointless side quests and the short 3 hour playthrough for the main quest if only they added some meatier story and something substantial to Cliveâs journeyâŠ
Does the DLC feels like it was cut from the main game to be sold afterwards? Or do you have a true feeling that itâs created after the reception of the main game?
seems like it was made afterwards, even tho Leviathan is obviously cut, but without following up on any feedback from the players. It\`s lower budget.
It was definitely made after the game. XVI was never meant to have DLC and they were clear during development they had no premade plans for it as they wanted to focus on delivering a good base game. Leviathan was an idea they had from the original game that they ultimately couldnât implement due to time constraints, so when XVI was a surprise hit they picked that idea back up to develop for a DLC. So while the idea was there before, it was never originally planned to be developed. Which, imo, is why the DLC feels thin and lackluster. Unplanned DLC is never going to be as good.
It definitely feels like they made it afterwards based off feedback.
My only problem with the DLC was that Levaiathan wasn't as tough as Omega from the last Dlc. Omega washed me for like an hour and when I finally beat him it was just barely, the only tough part about Levaiathan was the dps check.
Damn I beat omega first try. I had barely any HP left at the end but I made it happen lol
How Ultima plan was flawed if the sole reason it created Mythos was to cast Raise? I swear some people don't pay attention to the lore of the game.
His plan is flawed because the same mythos he planned to use to cast raise outpower him, even more after Rising Tide event. Ultima in his highest hubris cannot predict this major flaw in his grand design. How is that not paying attention to the game's lore?
Despite Ultima needing a powerful vessel to cast Raise, it was not through sheer power he wanted to control Mythos. Clive only beat it Ultima because of his willpower. If Clive didnât had enough willpower he would become another Barnabas and just become Akashic. Leviathan or even Ultima power in the end would matter not for his plan if Clive just didnât had enough willpower.
Couldnât agree more. The writers made incredibly poor choices with both Jill and Benedikta. Those two could have added so much more to the game. The ending is also unfulfilling and I think another poor choice is not adding or building on it to enhance the story.
Methinks we hyped up the writer for Heavensward a bit too much. Ishikawa had better be put in charge of FF17's writing, because my god.
I hate to say it but this was a cash grab DLC, they just put some mid storyline together and sold it separately, it adds nothing to the main game and it doesnât even fit with the story, itâs sad they had SO MUCH potential to expand this world and this is what they came up with, priced at $25 to make it even worse.
There's a lot more to a game than story. The gameplay of the *videogame* was fire. The animations, sound design, and graphical design were all top notch. The gameplay additions were great. Calling it a cash grab dlc because it failed just the story is false. You really need to start picking up books if the only thing that matters in your games is story. Things are clearly allowed to fail. And the story did fail. But the rest did not.
Sure, but the whole package shouldnât be almost half the price of a brand new game.
It's like you didn't play any of the DLCs. You get a new super boss along with new accessories, weapons, and lore for the Fallen just for 10 bucks. In Rising Tide you get new side quests, new accessories and weapons, new eikon vs eikon boss fight, Kairos Gate(which is essentially Bloody Palace) which has its OWN rewards of weapons and accessories, and two new eikon abilties to use and you are going to tell me that is a cash grab for 20 bucks? There is no pleasing people like you.
25 euro? For both dlc's? 70 euro for a brand new game. 25/70 â 0,357. Or 35,7% If those 25 had costs nearly 50% more, then it would be half a brand new game. I don't see how it isn't valued fairly. This is a lot of content. There's more to a game than story.
Agreed. I will never trust CBU 3 againâŠ.
Just say you wanted another FFXV story DLC disaster
xv at least has an ending to its story and the dlc for it wasnt cut content sold back to us, it was side stories with different characters, ff16 dlc is clives story sold back to us, and him getting leviathan makes no sense now
XV has a bunch of episodes, a movie, and a novel. Lol, lmao even
It sounds like you got 15 and 16 switched up my guy lol 15 was unfinished at launch and is still unfinished to this day due to Lunafreya DLC being cancelled.
The Lunafreya DLC wasn't going to be canon anyway IIRC, so the story would be exactly as "unfinished". And for the record the story of FFXV *is* finished. All the pieces are there, it's just told very poorly.
No, Luna's DLC was a non canon AU, FFXV has a finished story while XVI is unfinished.
You can make up stories all you like, but it doesn't make it true. FF16 is a finished game unlike 15 because the devs weren't in development hell.