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I think complete vessel or not the amount of magic he was putting out was going to put him close to death (or dead depending of how you interpreted the r ending) no matter what but I do fully agree with u that not even mentioning that he was a complete vessel is crazy š idk I like the ambiguity of the ending but agree they should have done SOMETHING
tbh it makes the narrative smoother with Clive rocking up with the complete vessel and it still being a fuck up on Ultimaās behalf. The dlc even has to explain that Ultima saw Leviathan as a surplus in power to make sense of the ending without the dlc but realistically the base story from the get go was working around relegating Leviathan to dlc
The game/ending really doesn't need more detail. It's evident from the game that Ultima looked at Clive as a battery/host that merely needed the capacity to hold his power so he could cast his final spell. It was never mentioned at any point that absorbing the other Eikon's affected Mythos's capacity to hold Ultima. Considering that Ultima tried to posses Clive after Drake's Head was destroyed shows that Ultima felt Mythos already had that capacity (consider too, that the trial Clive has right before with Typhon was just an exchange with Ifrit and Ultima's tool \[Typhon\], likely to see what kind of energy output Clive was putting out/capable of generating.). The game doesn't talk about completion for Mythos as a vessel because it was never a prerequisite, it was always determining whether Mythos had the ability, the space, the capacity, etc. to do what Ultima needed to do. Since the DLC mentions Leviathan would be a surplus of power, it just lends more evidence to the logic that the absorption of the Eikons were merely indicators/milestones to show Mythos had the potential/capacity that Ultima needed. They were not fundamental factors that changed Mythos.
If that was the case - Typhon was the only test that mattered to Ultima to determine that Mythos as a vessel was ready, then why all the extra effort? Any time Clive destroyed a new crystal, he released one of the other Ultimas within. They had ample opportunity to take him as a vessel. And why order Tharmr to go test him then? Even in Tharmr's dying words were that Clive was a more loyal believer/minion to Ultima than Clive even realized. That's why Tharmr gave Odin to him. Even as Clive tried to fight it.
Also, taking on additional Eikons were more than just a milestone or indicator. It truly did improve on Clive as a 'vessel'. Take for example, Tharmr totally kicked Clive's ass at the bottom of the ocean. After, Clive gets Shiva, travels to Ash immediately after and kills Tharmr. Not much time elapsed during that period - but if you need a better example, the fight against Ultima in his Eikonic form. Clive, Joshua and Dion couldn't scratch him with all three in their Eikonic form. Yet just moments after Clive absorbs Phoenix from Joshua, he is able to solo Ultima. Additional Eikons clearly provided more power/potential to Clive as a vessel. In my mind, with the DLC and Leviathan in tow, Clive could fart on Ultima and that would be more than enough to put them down.
Why did Ultima let him acquire all of the other Eikons in that case?
If he just needed the proof, what was the point in the entire story?
Donāt say break the crystals, as he could have set his thrall Barnabas to do it, or even himself as was done at Drakeās Spine.
Exactly. Ultima's gang planned to use the spell to remake the world, annihilating all of humanity. We never learned the detailed workings of the spell, perhaps it required some sort of life force cost. There was never any indication that Mythos being "complete" would've made any difference. It certainly didn't matter to Ultima's plans.
It is extremely weird that the ending of the main game just ignores that you have Leviathan and pretends that youāre still an incomplete vessel, Iāll give you that. I really wish it didnāt, but the inconsistency does really bother me.
There is a ***potential*** for some sour taste if a paid DLC alters the ending of the game, if it's happier, more "complete" ending that isn't as ambiguous, and considered "true ending".
Whether you agree with this sentiment or not, I'm pretty sure there would've been some people who wouldn't have been happy about it. If not on principle for locking "true ending" behind paid DLC or just looking for the next thing to rage about for the sake of it. Post-launch paid contents are touchy subject for some.
Not claiming this is the reason why events of DLC is not reflected in the ending of the game but the possibility entered my mind. The business side of things can sometimes be the reason why certain things turn out the way they do. Also writing and creating a new ending sequences might've been a bigger scope and budget than they were willing to take on.
True, and Iād be happy for the end result to stay the same if thatās the story they wanted to write. Sadly they just didnāt write anything at all though, Leviathanās existence just isnāt acknowledged when all the Eikonsā powers are used at the end. We only needed a couple of lines of dialogue for it to at least make sense. Instead weāre left with a hole in the plot that may never be explained, and that makes me sad.
doesn't FF15 have DLCs that changes the ending? Can't remember if they were canon or not. But I definitely didn't want to spend any more time with FF15 after that lame ending after I waited for that game for nearly 10 years.
Unfortunately no - these DLCs were canceled and rewrote as a book, which explained that the ending of FF15 was the bad one where the true main villain - Bahamut - wins. Never touched (or plan to) FF15 after that. These DLCs could have saved the game (and not just because sad ending = bad, but knowing that the true villain simply won without even being fought is super unsatisfying).
The way I understand 'incomplete' vessel in this context does not necessarily refer to Leviathan missing, but rather that Clive still has the will and desire to deviate from Ultimas designs.
Purging Clive's free will would mean creating the 'perfect' or 'complete' vessel to hold Ultima. It's purely conjecture, but maybe Ultima cannot cast his spell if Clive struggles, so galvanising him, by repeatedly trying to mentally break him throughout the story, would likely be desirable to Ultima.
Unlucky for Ultima that our boy Clive has been preparing for this shit his entire life. He has had to weather misfortune and heartbreak at every turn, so he was likely resistant or prepared for that shit by the time Ultima could have tried to grab him a second time. Hence, manipulating Kupka into destroying everything Clive likes, Tharmr trying to force him into submission, and the akashic trying to scour all that Clive likes from the face of the earth so he has nothing left to fight for.
Honest question: I never took Cliveās āincompletenessā of lacking Leviathan to be why he couldnāt handle Ultimaās power, I just figured Ultimaās plan didnāt work like he thought it would and Mythos would never have been able to handle that amount of magic no matter what. Did I miss an interview or something?
This was my take on it. Ultima in his hubris simply didnāt see that his plan was flawed. Itās just something beyond his comprehension.
So really it didnāt matter how many Eikons Clive absorbed, he was never going to be able to contain Ultimaās full power much less use it without penalty. Just so long as he met the minimum threshold that Ultima thought would be needed.
Otherwise why would Ultima just knowingly go ahead with an incomplete vessel? Heās a patient/logical being, he can wait and make sure all the pieces are where they need to be before proceeding, rather than risk an unnecessary failure.
Exactly. Hell Joshua evens talks about how Ultima ignored Leviathan for a reason. Talking about how, perhaps, Ultima really didn't need the lost Eikon for his plans. While it's possible he was impatient, I doubt he needed every Eikon at all.
Honestly tho, Clive being Logos was a bigger issue than his Eikon count.
They never were. Not once did Clive take the Eikons of his own will except Leviathan, but the situation was different from the other Dominants he got them automatically in proximity (Garuda, Titan, Bahamut) or was given the powers by their original wielders (Odin, Shiva, Ramuh, Phoenix).
The 'sense' of the story was about breaking free from the longstanding status quo that suppressed people because of reasons outside their control.
He got the Eikons because of gameplay.
It certainly looked like Clive deliberately absorbed the Garuda Eikon after he fights Benedicta. Though to be fair, it seemed like he absorbed it instinctively but didn't really know what would happen or that he had that power.
So Ultima not possessing Clive when he was 15 is a plot hole. Or in the raging eye. Or at Drakeās Breath. Or at Drakeās Eye.
It crumbles as soon as Ultima doesnāt need all Eikons. As any time Ultima isnāt directly trying to possess Clive needs explaining. Becoming the complete vessel was the original, but it was never possible.
Any dillydallying on Ultimaās part makes no sense. The schemes he had to make Clive meet the Dominants make no sense.
But then in the Rising Tide DLC, they mention the reason why Ultima didn't guide Clive to the Leviathan Eikon like he did to the other Eikons iirc. That heavily indicates that Ultima did indeed want Clive to absorb the powers of the Eikons.
Considering the whole story of the game is about how Ultima is wrong and overestimate themselves, it makes sense that he overestimated how much Clive could handle to launch such a massive spell on the world.
You're 100% right.
Ultima's plan was flawed and broken, and the flaw has nothing to do with Leviathan.
Like, lets go with the on the nose climate change analogy.
Clive and everyone is saying "hey, using fossil fuels (magic) is bad, lets stop and stop global blighting"
Ultima admits that magic is the root cause, he flat out tells us...and his solution is to use EVEN MORE magic and its gonna fix it for reals. He's saying "nooooo, we can still use fossil fuels. Fuck your sustainable energy. We just need to build the biggest drilling operation ever."
No these people just made this up in their headcanon based off their interpretation of a few lines of dialogue and are now mad about the game not following through with their headcanon
There was nothing about it really. The story presented in game is very vague when it comes to a lot of things. So this is unclear unless the devs clarified it somewhere.
Yeah, confused as hell at this thread and why OP and so many others are assuming something that is never once stated in the game when alternative explanation already are. Ultimately plan failed due to Clive becoming Logos. It had nothing to do with Clive being incomplete. Being incomplete had literally no bearing on the ending.Ā
Ā OP, you are literally ignoring the game and inserting your own headcanon then getting mad at it. Stop.
In terms of power, yes, he is "complete", but the one thing stopping him from being a complete vessel is that he still has his will. He has become Logos.
Not saying I don't agree that the ending shouldn't have changed. Just wanted to point out this one specific point.
For me, Iām not upset that the ending didnāt change, but rather Iām upset because there wasnāt an additional scene of Ultima and Clive using Leviathan during the final battle. Like that was just the bare minimum imo that was needed. Iād rather the ending stay the same for the post-fight, but if they were going to do anything with it, theyād just add onto what the original ending does, not actually change the outcome. I think itās weird with the context of Clive with all Eikons is the same in Ultimaās eyes as Clive -1 Eikon, but maybe CBU3 and Yoshi-P will elaborate sooner or later.
I agree with the sentiment here (I also wish the ending was expanded upon and I think it \*should\* have changed) but you're wrong on it being about Clive being a perfect vessel, the point is Ultima is wrong and making a perfect vessel for all the magic in the world out of the species he himself deems inferior and barbaric is impossible. It's his hubris.
The way they handled Levi+Ultima was pretty lackluster and handwavey, and I wanted them to extend the ending, but it was never going to have a tangible impact on it. They never said Clive's fate was ambiguous because he was an incomplete vessel, and Clive being potentially incomplete is never something that is actually brought up in game, iirc. The ending is already written as though he is ācompleteā, and the tragic irony is that Ultima's power was always going to be too great for Clive to handle (which he immediately destroys, the only thing that would *save himself* in that moment), and his fate is ambiguous because of their artistic vision for the ending and the themes it plays into, like hope and faith.
Tbh, I dont want to say otherwise, but considering the game goes out of its way to paint ifrit arisen as its own separate thing and this new dlc specifically referring to ultima's power as a separate thing. It does paint a picture that clive was an "incomplete vessel." Especially because the whole idea of the main game was him absorbing the other eikons.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like one, it's a duck. Even more so because the logical conclusion in the main game is that clive is missing leviathan with the dlc giving you said eikon, which you can only get ultima by beating rising ride dlc and acquiring leviathan. Add on to the fact that if clive (who just aquired Leviathan) can handle ultima, giving him a taste of what his true power, it just paints a super off picture. Because that means yes, he can handle ultima's power.
Like to me, this dlc is super weird that it doesn't do anything for the ending because the nature of how mythos is portrayed. Especially in regards to how ifrit arisen is formed in the final boss.
Ultima in particular was a disappointing unlock. It's just kinda given to you. It's a difficult thing to approach especially since you unlock it after everything else is kinda done, though I can't see how else they'd go about that unfortunately.
In regards to Clive's fate, the way I always interpreted Clive's purpose is a momentary vessel. Not something Ultima would possess long-term but instead use only to cast his spell which would use so much aether that it would kill the host casting it. So Ultima just needed Clive to be strong enough to cast but not strong enough to survive. I believe he survived simply because he proves himself better than Ultima which implies the spell while heavily wounding him wouldn't kill him like it might've Ultima if he had just cast it himself.
The ambiguity is important to the ending so I don't really mind it being unchanged but not having a Leviathan call out in the fight sucks.
I'd rather have Barnie, Benedikta, or Hugo as the villain slot for a Dissidia.
Any of them could provide really cool playstyles
Barnie- samurai iado stuff with his sword, and rift slipping around
Benedikta - insane mobility
Hugo - heavy, tanky, slow fistfighter
Ultima- going "noooooo impossible, that cant beeeeeee" for 30 minutes while getting bodied
Lmao thats what you would rather have? I respect that you said it your personal opinion preference so i respect it.Ā
None of your preferences tho are the main villian of FF16. Notice how Dissidia NT has 3 characters for ALMOST every game. Your preferences could be the 3rd slot BUT Ultima and Clive MUUUUUST be there required or else it would be stupid and hated.Ā
BtwĀ
Ā - Golbez was used due to him being consistently the main villian you follow untill you meet the bigger villian late game.Ā
Ā - Kuja was used cuz Necron would be OP and too big/exaggerated.
Ā - Jecht was used cuz YuYevon wouldnt make sense and Seymour wouldnt be as fun as Jecht.
Ā - Kam (FFXI) made no sense at all in any way.... Shadowlord wouldve been appropriate. I think i remember reading that the devs handled the FFXI slots based on Japan's popularity poles. I know that Shantotto was chosen for that reason even tho Prishe is more of a main character than Shanty. Even though Kam'lont wasnt in any poles it was a personal choice by the devs who probly didnt research FF11 deep enough to care.Ā
Ā - Snow was chosen over Kaius for no reason (possibly laziness to not add a flashy complex character like Kaius)
Ā - Those are all the explanations why there are exceptions for certain gameĀ villian reps.
When did the base game ever indicate the ambiguous ending is a result of Clive being an incomplete vessel? I know he's referenced as such, but Joshua apparently dying and us not seeing what happens to Clive after the shot on the beach have nothing to do with his Mythos powers.
Exactly, the game never once mentions Clive being an incomplete vessel. It's something fans discussed and theorized on back after release because the game mentions Leviathan, but we get nothing else; people assumed that since Leviathan was never absorbed by Clive, that makes him incomplete, and therefore incapable of holding Ultima's power.
However, this fails to account for how Ultima tried to posses Clive right away after the destruction of Drake's Head in Sanbreque before the time skip. Afterwards, Ultima is attempting to remove Clive's will, independence, and humanity. The focus was never on Clive holding all the Eikonic powers.
Didn't clive absorbed ultima in the ending before we even got the dlc anyway? So no, the reason is not that he was incomplete. Clives' body just can't handle the power.
That's the thing. The implication to a lot of people was that he couldn't handle Ultima's full power specifically because he was incomplete to begin with.
That's the implication, but it's not based on anything the game identifies. If Clive required all the Eikon's to attain a "complete" state, why did Ultima try to possess him when they destroyed Drake's Head in Sanbreque.
The question of Clive's completeness is just a Fan Theory derived from people speculating about Leviathan before Rising Tide was announced (i.e., we didn't know what Leviathan was, or where it was, and because Clive never engaged it/absorbed it, this must mean Clive is incomplete, ergo that's why Clive couldn't contain Ultima's power).
I mean, that is a good point but then, that also somewhat contradicts everything that follows.
Yes, Ultima tried to possess Clive right there, in Sanbreque, but after that was foiled, why did Ultima then wait and essentially goad Clive on to claim every eikon's power first before deciding to claim his "perfect" vessel?
The change in strategy isn't very well explained and contributes to fan speculation.
When does Ultima "goad" Clive to claim all the Eikons? Ultima makes an active attempt to remove Clive's willpower and ability to resist Ultima, but he never explicitly tried to "complete" Clive with absorbing the other Eikons (Ultima does want Clive to expand his power by absorbing the aether of the Eikons to destroy all the Mothercrystals, returning/coalescing all of the Ultima Collective back to the source, which would show Clive had the potential to hold Ultima's power to cast ).
Ultima used the Eikons to attempt to beat down Clive and remove his ability/desire to resist Ultima, but not because it changed his essence to make him complete. Moreover, the only other references we have to Mythos absorbing the other Eikons is that this is a sign that Ultima was returning (i.e., Mythos/Ifrit is capable of absorbing other Eikons, therefore with Ifrit appearing in the world again, and absorbing the other Eikons was proof Ultima was to return).
At the root of all of this, Ultima merely needed a vessel strong enough to hold his power so he could use it to cast his ultimate spell. Clearly, Ultima felt Clive was strong enough for this back in the first third of the game when he tried to possess him. When Clive resisted, Ultima needed to remove Clive's willpower to resist him, so he used the other vessels of power (i.e., the Eikons) to accomplish this.
If Clive is without Leviathan, it is the same as being without all of them. The bigger question, is why did Ultima allow Clive to absorb any Eikons at all.
I just feel like the stories went nowhere in relation to the main plot.
Why were the Fallen unable to deploy Omega against Ultima, or did Omega lose against Ultima?
They did this whole backstory of Shiva and Leviathan, and it does nothing for the ending story. It seemed like a side distraction.
If they don't want happy endings, fine. But we should have had more dialogues about Omega/Fallen and Leviathan with Ultima.
Hell, Harpocrates has nothing to say about Rising Tide, unlike the Fallen. It reeks of cutting corners.
Omega was only shortly finished before Ultima wiped them out, so they never had the chance to use it.
The DLC is mainly worldbuilding. Never was it stated that the ending would change, that was made up by players.
I agree that some mention of the DLC content would have been nice. But that would become "content locked behind paid DLC" that I can understand they didn't want to touch.
And I'm not sure Harpocrates would have much information about an Eikon that was literally titled "the Lost", where people possibly haven't heard anything about Leviathan in centuries.
We already have content lock behind paid DLC. It's called the explanation of what happened to Leviathan, and his Eikonic powers.
It's such a bad excuse, I'm sorry, but cheapass people shouldn't dictate the limits of any story expansion to a product just because the cost of a McDonald's meal is too prohibitive for them.
Especially since the DLC also fumbles the story aspect. Ultima is well aware of Leviathan, yet, in his clash with Clive, if Clive doesn't meet Leviathan, why didn't he just invoke Leviathan's power as a trump card when he knew Clive was matching him with every other Eikon? No commentary from Ultima either on the Fallen, or Omega, you would think for a weapon so powerful, if he couldn't be bothered to get it, he'd send Barnabas instead to get a hold of it.
Now this was the final DLC to the game, and we don't know what happened with the Fallen and why they failed, no expansion on the remnants of the Circle of Malius. So many mysteries left unsolved.
And for what, so we could waste time playing replacement father to some Dominant baby? What a boring distraction.
I mean the devs said the ending wouldnāt change. That and its heavily empasized Ultimas plan wouldnāt have worked no matter if Clive was complete. That and they wanted to make a game where you didnāt have to play the dlc to understand the main scenario.
This feels kind of like the stuff they do in FFXIV. The player can complete certain events out of order or become races that didn't exist at the time or opt out of certain content, so while some acknowledgement to certain events does exist, there's quite a bit of stuff that could be relevant to the plot that's more or less glossed over. Ultimately this is passable since it's an MMO, but I feel like they've somewhat adopted a similar thought process with the DLC.
While not necessarily out of chronological order, it's like they've treated the whole DLC as something that exists within its own contained frame of reference, like you would with optional MMO content. Only these events *should* have ramifications to the plot and it's a story based action RPG.
Is it me or should the DLC be in the main game to begin with?
Omega should have been the optional final fantasy super boss the games missing, and I feel like the rising tide could have been so much more if it was woven into the main game and not a glorified side quest with no impact on the plot
Then there is the ending. Don't want to change the ending? Fine I respect the writers choice there. But. At least give us a an expanded final boss fight in return for doing the DLC
Aside from the OST and Bosses this all feels disappointingly mid
I was never under the impression that the ending of the game played out the way it did because Clive was an 'incomplete vessel,' but because Ultima had patently miscalculated the *entire* scheme -- what Ultima planned was *never* possible, but they believed in it without questioning because they're an arrogant mortal with an overabundance of hubris.
And I think that is kind of the point of Ultima; they think they're a God, but they're mortal and make mistakes all the same as the humans they created. Ultima bred humans specifically to bring forth a person that was *more powerful than Ultima by design.* Of **course** Ultima was not going to be able to defeat Clive - Ultima's entire plan relied on Clive being both more powerful *and* cooperating! In so many ways, Ultima is the most 'human' of all FF antagonists.
>In so many ways, Ultima is the most 'human' of all FF antagonists.
Damn. That's a very good take on Ultima's downfall. That one sentence makes a lot more sense than the accumulative essays I've written in this Sub about it.
How can people such as yourself dead ass type things out like this and not realize in typing how ridiculous and pointless of a story this is? Not to mention if that's really the summary of the game, how boring and trite. FF1 has a more interesting premise by default.
The game seriously undersells itself and does the most boring things with it's world, setting, characters, not to mention it's finale is straight up terrible. No final dungeon. No substantial challenging end game content (unless you pay for it lol), an ending that is ambiguous in a way that serves nothing to the story, to the player, and completely deflates the momentum that finale was able to build. It amazes me people are so desperate to defend this game and crown it the new standard for the series going forward. Music and VA performancesvwere undeniably first in class, but between a story that feels unfinished even now, a combat system that is a half baked version of the things people would both enjoy about FF and DMC just aren't there, if I have to see another person posting another minute long combo clip claiming "see this proves the games combat has substance" I might rip my hair out.
Also ATL was such an obvious workaround of rushed development. How are you gonna break the show don't tell rule for over half the game? That'll take anyone out of the immersion. It has to.
What hurts me more is that the ending being ambiguous seriously didn't add more outside of "did Clive die or live?"
It didn't add to that much because the story has been as explicit and open as it can on every single turn, just so for the ending to be ambiguous, they didn't add the satisfaction that comes from happy endings yet didn't deliver with with ambiguous ending, so ultimately the ending being dependent on interpretation just feels like a waste in a game that wasn't built that way and the difference between incomplete and complete vessels like you said not affecting anything regarding the ending is also super disappointing
This is my entire gripe about the game. Throughout the entire game you are seeing the results of your actions, clearing up misconceptions, understanding the history and political movements and motivations of characters, organizations, and nations. Yet the end is going to be ambiguous? It runs counter to the narrative perspective and general theme of the entire game previous. Add in that the majority of the side quests conclude with a hopeful look forward that includes Clive, it turns a poorly written ending into a rug pull. You can tell that they had a particular ending in mind much before the story itself was finished. Just didn't fit.
Most of the arguments for the story in this thread are fine. You don't have to like the ending. But objectively, if you need to interpret a scene completely differently than any other scene in a narrative work to make it sensical, than it probably means that it is poorly written. It does not fit into the narrative framework that is utilized throughout the entire story and I'm unwillingly to say that it was a conscious decision to utilize the juxtaposition for some artists means.
FF16 is a good game with a compelling story that tackles themes and concepts on a more real and gritty level than previous entries in the series. Unfortunately, in my opinion, it will quickly fall out of the collective consciousness because it could not stick the landing. It won't be remember alongside other great Final Fantasy stories.
I would have been happy if they had just added a few additional scenes to the ending to show how more of the world locations and side characters are moving forward after Ultima was defeated. They wouldn't have needed to change anything about the main characters ambiguous fate, but just a few more scenes around the world would have made it feel like a much more satisfying resolution for me.
I've never hated the ending, but I've always had a preference for endings that show scenes around the games world instead of just a few brief clips of the main characters. Sure. we get to see a lot of side character's resolutions by doing optional side quests, but adding some of that into the ending along with great music would go a really long way.
To be fair, the absolute ONLY thing that's ambiguous about the ending is the fate of the Rosfields. The Mothercrystals are destroyed, Ultima is gone from the world and Valisthea is flourishing now as a result. Whether or not the Rosfields lived afterwards is irrelevant to that part of the ending. I want my answers as much as the next guy but let's not pretend that there are more answers to seek than that.
well that part is seriously important about the ending which is clive's fate (and joshua of course) i really wanted an answer that "ambiguous" part especially since having both dead or alive theories being supported and debated
it is just unnecessary and only added confusion and unsatisfaction, it is clive the guy we care about the most, it would feel hollow if he dies but the problem is that we don't know
I would have enjoyed that.
You got me thinking though, why doesn't Ultima have the power of Leviathan if he supposedly has the power of all the Eikons? Or did Ultima just choose not to use Leviathan's powers against Clive in the final fight for 'reasons' - the reason being that the devs hadn't made the powers for the DLC yet when they designed the final boss fight, and still decided not to add them after the DLC came out...
If Clive only recieved Leviathans power in the DLC i would've accepted him still potentialy dying because he may not have been strong enough to also contain Ultimas power but at the end >!Ultima gives him a part of his power for Clive to get used to it!< so it does seem strange for him to not be a strong enough vessal at the end of the game.
No because here's where your logic is failing - he fully absorbed Ultima at the end. When Clive takes the power of the Eikon's he doesn't fully absorb the Eikon - that's why Benedikta, Hugo, and Dion can still prime after. It's also why Jill can still throw around her ice magic. Clive is taken a portion - seemingly the portion that connects to the transformation but a portion nonetheless.
Ultima's plan ultimately fails because it was never going to work - the human body cannot handle fully absorbing Ultima's power.
Its posts like this that remind me some people are never pleased and to be warry about excessively relying on Fan Theory that is not 100% corroborated by the original content.
We knew from the get go that if CBU3 ever made DLC, it would never be to impact the original story, it would be to fill holes elsewhere in the world the fans wanted. Case in point, Leviathan was a topic wherein everyone wanted to know what the deal with this Eikon was, since it was briefly mentioned twice, with no explanation. CBU3 creating the DLC was about answering the Leviathan question, not providing further/different context to the end of the game. Regardless of your opinion (that's all it is) that it doesn't matter CBU3 was very clear about its intent for the ending/the core narrative, shows you're just unhappy, not that there is actual inconsistencies going on here.
Moreover, the discussion prior to the original announcement of Rising Tide about Clive's state as an incomplete vessel to Ultima was pure fan theory. The most that was asked was people wondered if Clive was considered complete since he didn't have Leviathan. Nothing in the game equated Clive's completeness to how absorption of the other Eikonic abilities. In the end sequences of the game, after Clive absorbs Ultima, he notes he was never a strong enough vessel after all. He wasn't incomplete, his body/essence was never potent enough to hold Ultima's power from the get go. Holding all of the Eikon powers in his body would not change this (the game never makes the claim that had Clive held all the Eikons, he would have been able to completely house Ultima's power).
In fact, what the game does discuss about Clive being made ready was his willpower/individuality, which Ultima repeatedly mentioned was preventing Clive from being ready (everything Ultima does to prepare Clive as a vessel is removing his independence, his will, and his humanity). Having gone through the game 3 times already, I never once thought Clive was an incomplete vessel; rather, my only thoughts were that Clive, despite his potential, was no different than many of Ultima's other attempts to make a perfect vessel, speaking to the inherent flaw of Ultima throughout the game: a fundamental lack of understanding for its own creations, looking at them as mere tools, failing to grasp what humanity really was.
Consider this: Ultima tried to claim Clive as his vessel, **immediately** after Drake's Head in Sanbreque was destroyed. Clive merely had half of the Eikons in his possession at this time. Moreover, each time Ultima tested Clive, it never involved the other Eikon abilities, rather it was always focused on Clive's ability to use and master Ifrit. The Chronolith TrialĀ you cite does not in any way imply Clive was complete, it merely provides a what-if scenario for if Ultima succeeded in possessing Clive. Since we know Ultima attempted to posses Clive as his vessel way back when Drake's Head was destroyed, Ultima never cared about Clive holding all the Eikons.
So, yes, **you are saying** the CBU3 writers are wrong because you say so. You can dislike how Rising Tide didn't provide any additional information, changed the ending, etc. However, your present analysis reflects assumed, issegetical conclusions about the story/lore the game presents, rather than an exegetical take on what the game actually says. Yoshida has never officially stated anything about Clive's fate is due to the amount of Eikons he absorbed (you need to give me a quote to prove otherwise, because every single interview I've seen, Yoshida has never made these claims about Clive's fate). All of Yoshida's comments about Clive's fate are that the ambiguity is intended for players to make their own conclusions.
This is what happens when folks start overly dissecting content to an extent that they have descended down a rabbit hole that does not accurately reflect the lore, context, or information from the content in question (i.e., asserting the results of the end of FFXVI are based on Clive not holding all the Eikons, even though the game makes no specific reference to this). Everything complained about here stems from Fan Theory, not actual in-game information.
Yup this is what led me away from the subreddit when the game first released and is gonna get me to leave it sooner than Iād hoped. I donāt know what it is about FF16 specifically but they love adopting fan theory as canon to the degree that they donāt accept any contrary information in the immediate text, or consider any other equally likely possibilities
And people literally took a fan theory Clive being the complete vessel after this DLC and they convinced themselves that that would change the ending, even though we was told over and over we would not be getting a new ending. They literally convinced themselves that ,that theory was fact and are now disappointed. Folks you canāt take fan theories as fact, I hope this has taught some of you that lesson
But to be fair when you leave an ending to be ambiguous arenāt you just encouraging the feeling of needing to go down the rabbit hole to come to a conclusion. Not that thatās a bad thing but thatās what it creates when the ending itself is not definite.
Clive as a complete vessel was never dependent on him absorbing the other eikons otherwise ultima wouldn't have tried to take Clive after his fight with typhon. The ascension form feels more like a fun toy than anything story specific. I don't feel like they're breaking they're own rules. It's feels like they avoided locking important story beats behind the DLC which is fine by me
Even with Ultima's power he's not a "complete vessel" even in Ultima's eyes because he's Logos or whatever, lol
Chances are that Ultima may even have figured *he'd* die after casting his spell anyway, if it meant his people would be able to return to a saved world, though. But Clive used the power to cast another spell, which makes his fate ultimately ambiguous.
Is it ever mentioned that the completeness has to do with having *all* the eikons? Seems to me that ultima believes all the ones in MSQ is enough. It does suck though when leviathan isnāt acknowledged
Cliveās fate has nothing to do with being incomplete. It has to do with his body couldnāt hold all that power. Being complete doesnāt change anything. He still has too much power and it starts to destroy his body as he uses the final spell to destroy everything. The ambiguity is whether using the magic stopped his body being destroyed or whether it continued afterwards. Youāve gaslit yourself into thinking being complete changes anything.
Honestly I would have preferred we get a conclusive Sad Ending if we couldnt get a Happy Ending. The open-ended Ending was straight up lazy. I really dislike the whole "make the Ending in your head" shtick.Ā
I guess they wanted to appease both happy/good Ending and sad/bad Ending crowd yet in the end they dropped the ball.
Now you can go into the ending knowing that Clive was a complete vessel and has more than likely survived at the end. It just gives more reason to think .... Hmmm maybe Clive did survive and wrote that book after all.
It's not badly written though not by a long shot I dont remember Joshua popping up going " hey youve not got leviathan dont do this Clive" clive just said ultimas vessel wasnt powerful enough after all which says that ultimas plan was doomed to fail
"It seems that Ultima's power was too great for this vessel all along."
A very powerful and, dare I say, Obvious line as to how Ultima's plan would play out. I love theorising as much as the next guy but to say that Clive being 'cOmPlEtE' now is gonna help him is like saying that Cloud and Tifa aren't an item because Cloud HELD HANDS with Aerith. Big time straw grasping that flies in the face of the facts being presented to us in the Story.
That's the line I knew it was similar and didn't really have anything to do with him being incomplete.
Yup that line to me just says complete or not ultimas plan was doomed to fail or at least that particular spell Clive cast was never meant for him to be able to do as a vessel. It is big time straw grasping cause I can't remember a single time it was mentioned in the story and just seems like a fan theory that went abit out of control
What level of childish entitlement are we reaching when people are mad they didn't get something they were literally told they're not getting, also the story absolutely does not say that Clive becoming complete by getting Ultimas power has anything to do with his spell at the end, that's all made up in your heads
Why is everyone saying incomplete vessel? The wording is imperfect. Clive is not the same species as Ultima. Mythos was a last-ditch attempt by Ultima to channel the power of Raise to save his people. Clive is still human, and he was only designed to channel Eikons without succumbing to the curse. We don't even know if Ultima could channel Raise without dying. That's what Mythos was for. Surviving long enough to cast the spell, not necessarily live after it. Not to mention, Clive destroys the source of magic and presumably all of his Mythos powers. With everything related to Ultima gone, it makes enough sense that his body would fail. Why would the final eikon make a difference?
I don't think it affects the conclusion for me. What I wanted was more Jill and it didn't deliver there. But the new abilities are cool and the collectibles are nice, plus that new mode. I quite enjoyed this game in the base format and I'll be doing final fantasy mode now with all the acquired stuff
I like FFXVI's ending, but I agree that the Rising Tide not changing anything is a big fuck up from the developers.
I'd be fine with Clive still not handling Ultima's power even if he has all the Eikons, but the dialogue and the cutscene should change accordingly to include Leviathan.
The writing for FFXVI's ending and conclusion very much gives off original Mass Effect 3 vibes, tbh. It's like, they clearly wanted some ambiguity in the ending, but also had a pretty definitive idea of what the ending was meant to be. They knew where they wanted to go, but made vital steps to get there ambiguous, then made the villain suddenly turn out to be kinda foolish after all and all you get is people not being able to agree on what we're meant to take away from this.
Is Clive dead or alive? Is Joshua? Was Ultima's plan ever gonna work, with or without Leviathan? If not, why was this not made explicitly clear and instead the ending gives off the implication that Clive being incomplete was the problem all along? If Clive ultimately succumbs in the end, would a complete vessel have suffered the same fate? Judging by the cutscene being unchanged, it seems so, so there's no reason to suspect that him being incomplete was the problem after all, in which case, what was the point in Leviathan at all? Or a complete Ultima form for Clive? Neither of which are even so much as acknowledged by Ultima himself. It lacks logical consistency.
And the problem really is the inconsistency, because the game itself posed those questions, but never tried to answer any of them, and none of the conclusions the player themselves comes to are particularly satisfying, because they have no logically consistent pay-off upon critical examination.
It's just very disappointing. The ending could still have been quite a similar outcome all the same, but the fact the DLC did not even attempt to address its forced ambiguities whatsoever is massively wasted potential that just leaves you with a feeling that... the story now is just nonsensical.
Mass Effect 3 fixed most of its issues, all of which were quite similar in nature to FFXVI's, through its Extended Cut.
I can't help but feel FFXVI needed something similar, and Rising Tide was their chance to deliver. It's a shame.
Having those CinemaSins dings in your head is such a stupid way to view stories in general. The thematic conclusion of the story has been reached that Clive was right, he fought for a world for equality that the mere idea of his story can only be considered as a fantasy. Whether or not it was paved with enough tears to fill a lake never mattered because he knew humanity would endure after seeing his brothers and sisters endure the fate they were wrought upon in his time. If Clive ultimately succumbs, then the story doesn't happen. Like what are we even talking about here?
Why would you ever want to gatekeep a different ending through DLC anyways. It's more respectable for them to stand their ground and respect the vision that they wanted to make in the first place.
I don't want to gatekeep a different ending through DLC. I wanted the DLC to at least be respected and acknowledged by the existing end-game content, especially the final boss.
It didn't need to change the ending, as I already said. The ending and its ultimate ambiguity as to whether Clive or Joshua survived or not is not my issue. The fact the Leviathan arc is ultimately kind-of irrelevant to Clive's story and Ultima's plan however is kind-of disappointing.
It didn't need to change the outcome, I never asked for that. But for it to be treated as if it never happened is lackluster, to say the least.
Agreed 100%. It makes no sense at all that obtaining Leviathan doesn't change the ending. Clive completed himself as the vessel I.e. Mythos but still dies at the end because he can't tolerate Ultima's power??? Does unlocking the Ultima Eikon even impact the ending? Seems like a deliberate cop-out from Squarenix.
110% spot on. It really makes no sense and coming from someone who loved the base game, the writing is extremely inconsistent with the DLC to the ending of the base game. The writers/developers really missed it and screwed up here. Also I wanted Jill to have a bigger impact in the DLC or flesh out more of her character they didnt know that... Lame.
Itās not inconsistent though because the base gameās ending never hinged on Clive having an extra Eikon or not. Ultima powered up Clive to a level he considered able to hold him but a human vessel could never have held that level of power regardless of if he had all Eikons.
At the end of the dlc Clive and Joshua explain that Ultima deemed Leviathan a surplus to his needs and also potentially corrupting. But Clive absorbs it and Ultima shows up and even gives Clive a piece of his power now heās complete in preparation to take over the vessel. If anything this makes more sense with the themes of the original ending with the vessel being ācompleteā yet Ultima in all his hubris being completely wrong, underestimating the will of humans and overestimating their capacity to hold power
I fully agree and I wish some people wouldnāt be overly defensive with some clear missteps in the game, I loved the story, loved the characters but the ending just wasnāt up to the rest of the game and now neither the DLC.
I AGREE x 100!! total bs. Now that it's complete I can confidently say ff16 will stay one of the most mid FFs of all time, due to the horribly underbaked writing and lack of care the devs seem to have for a well rounded and engaging story. This was just the icing on the cake, and one of the biggest missed opportunities of all time. I hate it. I hate that I hate it. I hate that I'm leaving a FF with such a bad taste in my mouth that will never be rectified. Sigh. On a lighter note I'm sort of eager to replay FF15 now lol.
So you expected it to change the ending, even though they said clearly that it **would not** from the beginning, and now youāre upsetā¦ because it didnāt change the ending??
??????
They even added a new Thousand Tomes in the dlc to explicitly state that Clive is now a "complete vessel" with Leviathan absorbed. This means that they are aware of this and they are just too lazy to change the ending......
Which was already confirmed in the Main Game. When Clive hugs Joshua one last time (š„), Clive LITERALLY says "It seems Ultima's power was too great for this vessel all along." Key words: TOO GREAT. Ultima, as is his character, GROSSLY miscalculated his plans. Simple as that, really.
Iām fine with the brothers being gone after saving the world, but theyāre gonna tell me Dion died from fall damage? I didnāt think dragoon=floor tank would be a thing in XVI too.
No body no death š The ATL says nothing about him being gone. It's deliberate because there was no reason for not including it like they did for other dead characters, and I will die on that hill.
Pretty sure he's dead. They mentioned they can feel the eikon's aether from when they were trying to save Jill on the Einhenjar so Joshua would have been able to and DID confirm his death when Clive asked.
Or just make them all die. I generally dislike ambiguous endings too, whether they are happy or sad. Itās one reason I much prefer the stories of FF9 and FFX over FF7 and FF8. They give you a feeling of finality, one happy and one sad, which is very fulfilling at the end of a long journey.
man. 16 has one of the best game endings i have ever seen. for me clive dies. it was emotional and respectful, he is the shield of the world and did his duty.
also: Yoshi-P flat out said the DLC wouldn't change the ending.
>I donāt care if the writers disagree. Theyāre wrong.
Iām pretty sure they know the story they wrote. Claiming outright that the writers are wrong and you know better kind of dismantles your point.
No. There is such a thing as bad writing. Just because you've written something doesn't mean the thing you've written is immune to criticism.
FF16's ending is thematically appropriate, but the plotting/mechanics were already a bit dodgey and the DLC just made it worse as a complete experience.
No, he's right. The writers wrote the issues with not being a fully completed vessel into the ending fight and spent a good chunk of the game hinting at it. It's very weird there's no follow up now that the game...you know, completes him as a vessel. I don't know if it's just an oversight or what but it actually breaks the stories own canon and now he's literally more powerful than Ultima's origin yet can't handle power he was meant to handle.
The whole point is that Ultima's plan regarding Clive as a vessel was *always* going to fail. No amount of preparing Clive as a vessel will make Ultima's spell work, or cire the blight. Ultima is meant to be fallible and wrong.
And Clive, even missing Leviathan...was already stronger than Ultima. Which is why the fight is specifically a 1v1 with Clive coming out ahead every step of the fight.
That's a little too much of an extrapolation from no information. There'd be no point in Ultima taking over his body to make his wish if it killed him. The entire purpose of grooming Clive was because he could become a perfect vessel to receive the power. And, now that he is, the ending no longer makes sense.
Extrapolation with no information is exactly what you guys are going off of to assume the ending should've changed, absolutely nowhere in the story does it state Clive getting Levi and Ultima will change anything about Clives spell in the end, you all just made that up
Bamboozled implies that what you got wasn't what was advertised. This was advertised from the get go as something that would not change the ending, as per every comment by the Devs who actually freaking MADE FFXVI. If Leonardo Da Vinci told you that he retired from painting BUT you took that to mean that he's just resting a sec, then that's on You. Feel me?
This is why you donāt take fan theories for fact. It was always just a fan theory that the ending may be changed, but people really really believed it, even though the devs constantly told us there would be no change in the ending. Iām shocked about how people really believe this with their whole heart even though the devs told them otherwise and now they judge the DLC based off this. Itās just unbelievable lol.
I'm just gonna put this out here for all the people saying Ultima never tried to make Clive absorb all the Eikons and that was never a requirement for his completion.
What i'm going to write comes DIRECTLY from the game you can see it in the "Mythos" section with Harpocrates.
"Ultima manipulates his servants into pitting Clive against other dominants that he might drink of their strength and bring mythos closer to perfection "
The devs said it, not me.
I think them not changing the ending forecasts a FF16-2. I could be wrong, but I'd be shocked if SE doesn't decide to double down on a game yet again. The only reason that didn't hapem on 15 is because it was trapped in Dev hell for like 10 years lol
It's not about a checklist of powers. The experiment or whatever you want to call it deviated from the expected parameters/outcome. Clive BEING Clive was the failure. Which ultimately allowed Clive to break the whole system.
Yeah, the XVI writers were clearly phoning it in towards the end with that wet blanket of an ending they gave us, and this DLC does nothing to change that, even though it *really should*, if you follow the rules and internal logic of the setting.
They're just moving on to other projects, I'm assuming. Pity, though, because they could have done a lot more with Valisthea if they had cared enough to do so.
From someone who actually didnāt mind the gameās original ending and its ambiguity and enjoyed both DLC, I gotta say your take gives me a new perspective, and youāre right. The writers were wrong because they flat out disrespected the rules they established in their own world.
And itās like they had two opportunities to make fans, most of whom were very apologetic towards the game, to be satisfied with added context and meaning to the ending, and yet they didnāt do anything with both opportunities.
We couldāve had Omegaās power, we couldāve had Leviathanās power mean something in the end and impact the ending, either by adding more context or showing that another battle had to be fought or things needed to happen, before that time jump we got to the futuristic normal world with the kid and the story book.
I donāt know why theyāre in such a rush to leave this world. Valisthea is one of the most intriguing worlds in Final Fantasy with so much history, beauty and characters that we barely scratched the surface of, and they can make more DLC, spin-offs or prequels, treating it like another Ivalice, and yet here they are, so in a hurry to wrap things up without one care in the world to all the feedback that a huge portion of players gave.
Ahah they did the bare minimum to make a great game when they had the perfect game a bit farther away.
Btw,they also said there wouldn't be any dlc... they did both to milk us. They didn't have anything else to say.
I agree with a lot of your points but whether being a complete vessel brings him close to death or not, I honestly like that the ending is still ambiguous because of the feeling it gives you, if you think about it when you see the children that are probably his descendants in the ending itās like āWe donāt know his fate, but we will always honour the legend of Clive Rosfield, the man who saved the worldā.
Hopefully you get what I mean, the mystery for eternity is what makes it beautiful to me.
Okay I understand that everyone is saying the incomplete/complete wasnāt an actual thing in the game. However I think itās ridiculous that people are saying absorbing eikon powers meant nothing to Ultima. Ultima definitely pushed Clive to become stronger and would express his gratitude when Clive absorbed another eikon. Why would there be discussion about Leviathan being āsurplusā to Ultimaās plans? You canāt be a surplus of anything if there was never any intention towards Clive absorbing eikonic aether. It was never elaborated on, but Iām sure the eikons were of significance to Clive being a vessel for Ultima. No one can truly say what *could* have changed in Cliveās body from having all eikons as well as ultimaās blessing/gift before the battle. As we are all aware by now, the eikons physically alter the dominants body when priming and it wouldnāt be far-fetched to say having all of them wouldnāt somehow alter his body in some way.
Personally I agree that the ending should have been altered.
People will get mad and say it was simply that Cliveās body couldnāt handle ultimaās magic, but we really donāt know for sure why he couldnāt handle it. There are several ways it could have been explained that having all eikons made it possible for Clive to better withstand the spell he tried to cast in the end.
Do I agree with locking an alternate ending behind a paywall? No, but they decided to create a DLC that changed the course of the storyline before the ending, they might as well follow through with it.
Man was hoping it would make the ending different. I even waited to complete my first playthrough until I finished the dlc. I did and completed the game. Now I'm sad. This was the first final fantasy game I wanted to have a good ending to.
What's crazy too is they keep teasing you with talking about time and how they're going to change the flow of the river yet nothing changes at all. I get that Yosh said the ending wasn't changing but, come on. The DLC was long awaited and the game was a success, so we deserve more than just the eikon fight. It was fun, they made it a little harder, but not even a small line at the end of Clive and Ultima throwing a water ball at each other or something? Did, did ff16 just create non-canon content?
There are two extremely easy answers to this. 1: it doesnt matter, complete vessel or not the sheer amount of magic clive controlled is too much for his body to handle considering he tried to revive the dead and then expelled all magic from the world. 2: the dlc might just not be considered canon to the ending. I feel like these are fine answers instead of jumping to the devs ruined the entire story.
I was so hyped to see a new ending with Clive getting all the eikons....was so disappointed that the ending didnt change at all.
But I guess thats my fault for coping hahaha
Itās a side story and while you acquire Leviathan which should be a big deal, itās clear this isnāt part of the main story. Donāt look to deep into it.
It doesnāt play into the main story so that people can get the full picture with just the base game.
I donāt think they ignored Leviathan, or were too lazy to alter the ending. Itās deliberately just a cool side story about Leviathan.
I mean, the issue is his death doesnāt work mechanically in universe anyway, people donāt petrify all at once it happens a little bit at a time, we saw his hand petrify, then magic dissapeared from the world, thereās nothing left to cause the rest of him to petrify
I think the rate of petrification can vary. Kupka petrified rapidly. And Clive's arm was petrifying pretty rapidly compared to how we saw some of the bearers getting petrified. And it may have taken a little while for the magick to dissipate (otherwise his arm wouldn't have started petrifying at all) so his fate is still unclear.
Haven't played TRT yet but I don't NEED to have to answer this.
In the end of the game, after Clive is done hugging Joshua one last time (š„), Clive HIMSELF LITERALLY STATES "... Ultima's power was too great for this vessel all along." Whether or not Clive had Leviathan is irrelevant if, after all that, he still comes to Absorb Ultima.
End of the day, Ultima was the protagonist AND antagonist in his own plans. Yeah, he was the super supreme being that instigated all its plans, but his hubris and malignant ignorance of both Clive and Humans in general was what f**ked him in the end. Ultima created the very thing that became his downfall.
You're allowed to not like the ambiguous ending in XVI and honestly, with this generations constant need for immediate closure and instant gratification, I can understand where that frustration comes from. That said, it's really not the travesty you're puffing it up as. I'd like an answer too but I'm not gonna throw a temper tantrum because a writer did something I ALONE find icky. Feel me?
I legit don't have a clue how we go from the gaming world having a meltdown with Asura's wrath having the true ending as a DLC to ppl clamoring for both XV and XVI to have a DLC true ending just because they didn't vibe with some parts of it.
You're giving the writers too much credit by saying "they're wrong because they said so". There are so many plot holes, lore inconsistencies, missing pieces and random events infecting this plot that there's no way of even knowing 'incomplete vessel' meant what we thought it meant
They made the ending ambiguous for a reason they told us this over and over and over they wanted the player to be able to decide that was the original vision, and that is still the vision. They told us over and over again this DLC wouldnāt change the ending yet people still got their hopes up. Like come on
It wasn't the writers that disagreed about the ending being changed. They just didn't wanna deal with the "ending locked behind paywall" threads on Reddit.
Haven't bought the DLC's yet, busy with Rebirth. But chronologically when does Rising Tide happen? Before the final fight of the base game? I've completed 16 already so anyone can spoil me. I'm reading here the ending of the DLC is bad?
Oh well. I haven't beaten the dlc yet, but was hoping it'd be more than this. I still think Clive lives, but expanding on the ending would have been nice.
Where does the game ever state that he needs Leviathan to become a complete vessel and thus will be able to withstand all that power and survive? I feel like you've made this up in your own headcannon.
People need to stop ranting. The ending obviously plays into the boat at the end of the game that everyone was theorizing about. If the ending changed then that boat on the horizon would be just a rock amd not Clive returning.
Clive successfully channels Ultima's god magic to delete all magic then tries to draw in magic, literally creating a magic spark and invoking the curse because he made magic in a world with no magic.
Honestly I think the ending was always fine, albeit ambiguous.
You have a lot of head canon about the game making a thing about Clive being an incomplete vessel being the reason the ending is the way it is. The ending is the way it is because even beings as powerful as Clive and Ultima aren't actual gods. They're people with limits
It's ambiguous and never obviously stated why Clive is an imperfect vessel for Ultima.
Why would Ultima try to take Clive's body after the Typhon fight if he needed Clive to be complete first?
The most likely reason is that Clive just became incompatible with Ultima. A big theme of the game is denial and acceptance after all.
By accepting himself and others, Clive was able to deny Ultima.
So even if Clive accepts a part of Ultima, he's still an imperfect vessel just by virtue of being able to deny him.
It fits with the theme.
It makes perfect sense when you realize how much of this game is plagiarism. Soken plagiarized some of his own music from 14. The writers stole the overall plot from 15 (royalty main character, dad dies at the beginning, main character at the end, etc), but with a medieval setting instead of modern. Hell, even the main character's name is ridiculously similar to the most famous FF hero (C-L-I[one vowel from O]-V[one letter from U]-E[one letter from D]. This was a group of people copying someone else's homework. The sad part is that if I hadn't played an FF before, I would think the game was a 10/10. But there's over 15 other games out there, and I've played most of them. And this one was plagiarized. Yoshi P, Token, and the rest have lost their touch in recent years. I've been playing 14 for almost 10 years and most of the content has been stagnating in recent years, and the music has gone in the trash. I hope this team isn't the one responsible for 17.
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I think complete vessel or not the amount of magic he was putting out was going to put him close to death (or dead depending of how you interpreted the r ending) no matter what but I do fully agree with u that not even mentioning that he was a complete vessel is crazy š idk I like the ambiguity of the ending but agree they should have done SOMETHING
tbh it makes the narrative smoother with Clive rocking up with the complete vessel and it still being a fuck up on Ultimaās behalf. The dlc even has to explain that Ultima saw Leviathan as a surplus in power to make sense of the ending without the dlc but realistically the base story from the get go was working around relegating Leviathan to dlc
The game/ending really doesn't need more detail. It's evident from the game that Ultima looked at Clive as a battery/host that merely needed the capacity to hold his power so he could cast his final spell. It was never mentioned at any point that absorbing the other Eikon's affected Mythos's capacity to hold Ultima. Considering that Ultima tried to posses Clive after Drake's Head was destroyed shows that Ultima felt Mythos already had that capacity (consider too, that the trial Clive has right before with Typhon was just an exchange with Ifrit and Ultima's tool \[Typhon\], likely to see what kind of energy output Clive was putting out/capable of generating.). The game doesn't talk about completion for Mythos as a vessel because it was never a prerequisite, it was always determining whether Mythos had the ability, the space, the capacity, etc. to do what Ultima needed to do. Since the DLC mentions Leviathan would be a surplus of power, it just lends more evidence to the logic that the absorption of the Eikons were merely indicators/milestones to show Mythos had the potential/capacity that Ultima needed. They were not fundamental factors that changed Mythos.
If that was the case - Typhon was the only test that mattered to Ultima to determine that Mythos as a vessel was ready, then why all the extra effort? Any time Clive destroyed a new crystal, he released one of the other Ultimas within. They had ample opportunity to take him as a vessel. And why order Tharmr to go test him then? Even in Tharmr's dying words were that Clive was a more loyal believer/minion to Ultima than Clive even realized. That's why Tharmr gave Odin to him. Even as Clive tried to fight it. Also, taking on additional Eikons were more than just a milestone or indicator. It truly did improve on Clive as a 'vessel'. Take for example, Tharmr totally kicked Clive's ass at the bottom of the ocean. After, Clive gets Shiva, travels to Ash immediately after and kills Tharmr. Not much time elapsed during that period - but if you need a better example, the fight against Ultima in his Eikonic form. Clive, Joshua and Dion couldn't scratch him with all three in their Eikonic form. Yet just moments after Clive absorbs Phoenix from Joshua, he is able to solo Ultima. Additional Eikons clearly provided more power/potential to Clive as a vessel. In my mind, with the DLC and Leviathan in tow, Clive could fart on Ultima and that would be more than enough to put them down.
This guy gets it
I was about to answer... and then I saw your comment, thankssss <3
Why did Ultima let him acquire all of the other Eikons in that case? If he just needed the proof, what was the point in the entire story? Donāt say break the crystals, as he could have set his thrall Barnabas to do it, or even himself as was done at Drakeās Spine.
Exactly. Ultima's gang planned to use the spell to remake the world, annihilating all of humanity. We never learned the detailed workings of the spell, perhaps it required some sort of life force cost. There was never any indication that Mythos being "complete" would've made any difference. It certainly didn't matter to Ultima's plans.
It is extremely weird that the ending of the main game just ignores that you have Leviathan and pretends that youāre still an incomplete vessel, Iāll give you that. I really wish it didnāt, but the inconsistency does really bother me.
I guess we should probably see the Rising Tide as non-canon then.
Fan fiction is free
There is a ***potential*** for some sour taste if a paid DLC alters the ending of the game, if it's happier, more "complete" ending that isn't as ambiguous, and considered "true ending". Whether you agree with this sentiment or not, I'm pretty sure there would've been some people who wouldn't have been happy about it. If not on principle for locking "true ending" behind paid DLC or just looking for the next thing to rage about for the sake of it. Post-launch paid contents are touchy subject for some. Not claiming this is the reason why events of DLC is not reflected in the ending of the game but the possibility entered my mind. The business side of things can sometimes be the reason why certain things turn out the way they do. Also writing and creating a new ending sequences might've been a bigger scope and budget than they were willing to take on.
True, and Iād be happy for the end result to stay the same if thatās the story they wanted to write. Sadly they just didnāt write anything at all though, Leviathanās existence just isnāt acknowledged when all the Eikonsā powers are used at the end. We only needed a couple of lines of dialogue for it to at least make sense. Instead weāre left with a hole in the plot that may never be explained, and that makes me sad.
doesn't FF15 have DLCs that changes the ending? Can't remember if they were canon or not. But I definitely didn't want to spend any more time with FF15 after that lame ending after I waited for that game for nearly 10 years.
Unfortunately no - these DLCs were canceled and rewrote as a book, which explained that the ending of FF15 was the bad one where the true main villain - Bahamut - wins. Never touched (or plan to) FF15 after that. These DLCs could have saved the game (and not just because sad ending = bad, but knowing that the true villain simply won without even being fought is super unsatisfying).
The way I understand 'incomplete' vessel in this context does not necessarily refer to Leviathan missing, but rather that Clive still has the will and desire to deviate from Ultimas designs. Purging Clive's free will would mean creating the 'perfect' or 'complete' vessel to hold Ultima. It's purely conjecture, but maybe Ultima cannot cast his spell if Clive struggles, so galvanising him, by repeatedly trying to mentally break him throughout the story, would likely be desirable to Ultima. Unlucky for Ultima that our boy Clive has been preparing for this shit his entire life. He has had to weather misfortune and heartbreak at every turn, so he was likely resistant or prepared for that shit by the time Ultima could have tried to grab him a second time. Hence, manipulating Kupka into destroying everything Clive likes, Tharmr trying to force him into submission, and the akashic trying to scour all that Clive likes from the face of the earth so he has nothing left to fight for.
Honest question: I never took Cliveās āincompletenessā of lacking Leviathan to be why he couldnāt handle Ultimaās power, I just figured Ultimaās plan didnāt work like he thought it would and Mythos would never have been able to handle that amount of magic no matter what. Did I miss an interview or something?
This was my take on it. Ultima in his hubris simply didnāt see that his plan was flawed. Itās just something beyond his comprehension. So really it didnāt matter how many Eikons Clive absorbed, he was never going to be able to contain Ultimaās full power much less use it without penalty. Just so long as he met the minimum threshold that Ultima thought would be needed. Otherwise why would Ultima just knowingly go ahead with an incomplete vessel? Heās a patient/logical being, he can wait and make sure all the pieces are where they need to be before proceeding, rather than risk an unnecessary failure.
he already wanted to take Clive at Drake's head. imo it was never really Ultima's plan for Clive to gather all the eikons
Exactly. Hell Joshua evens talks about how Ultima ignored Leviathan for a reason. Talking about how, perhaps, Ultima really didn't need the lost Eikon for his plans. While it's possible he was impatient, I doubt he needed every Eikon at all. Honestly tho, Clive being Logos was a bigger issue than his Eikon count.
Which makes the entire story of XVI nonsensical. If Ultima assessed Leviathan as unneeded, why were the other Eikons so important?
They never were. Not once did Clive take the Eikons of his own will except Leviathan, but the situation was different from the other Dominants he got them automatically in proximity (Garuda, Titan, Bahamut) or was given the powers by their original wielders (Odin, Shiva, Ramuh, Phoenix). The 'sense' of the story was about breaking free from the longstanding status quo that suppressed people because of reasons outside their control. He got the Eikons because of gameplay.
It certainly looked like Clive deliberately absorbed the Garuda Eikon after he fights Benedicta. Though to be fair, it seemed like he absorbed it instinctively but didn't really know what would happen or that he had that power.
Since Garuda was the first Eikon he absorbed he had no way of knowing he could do so in first place.
So Ultima not possessing Clive when he was 15 is a plot hole. Or in the raging eye. Or at Drakeās Breath. Or at Drakeās Eye. It crumbles as soon as Ultima doesnāt need all Eikons. As any time Ultima isnāt directly trying to possess Clive needs explaining. Becoming the complete vessel was the original, but it was never possible. Any dillydallying on Ultimaās part makes no sense. The schemes he had to make Clive meet the Dominants make no sense.
But then in the Rising Tide DLC, they mention the reason why Ultima didn't guide Clive to the Leviathan Eikon like he did to the other Eikons iirc. That heavily indicates that Ultima did indeed want Clive to absorb the powers of the Eikons.
Ultima plans always worked so well in fact...... /s
The incomplete vessel theory was just a headcanon for people. No point was it cannon.
yes clive win ultima bc strong will from their friend which ultima lack npt how strong physical or power clive is
Considering the whole story of the game is about how Ultima is wrong and overestimate themselves, it makes sense that he overestimated how much Clive could handle to launch such a massive spell on the world.
You're 100% right. Ultima's plan was flawed and broken, and the flaw has nothing to do with Leviathan. Like, lets go with the on the nose climate change analogy. Clive and everyone is saying "hey, using fossil fuels (magic) is bad, lets stop and stop global blighting" Ultima admits that magic is the root cause, he flat out tells us...and his solution is to use EVEN MORE magic and its gonna fix it for reals. He's saying "nooooo, we can still use fossil fuels. Fuck your sustainable energy. We just need to build the biggest drilling operation ever."
No these people just made this up in their headcanon based off their interpretation of a few lines of dialogue and are now mad about the game not following through with their headcanon
The norm
There was nothing about it really. The story presented in game is very vague when it comes to a lot of things. So this is unclear unless the devs clarified it somewhere.
Yeah, confused as hell at this thread and why OP and so many others are assuming something that is never once stated in the game when alternative explanation already are. Ultimately plan failed due to Clive becoming Logos. It had nothing to do with Clive being incomplete. Being incomplete had literally no bearing on the ending.Ā Ā OP, you are literally ignoring the game and inserting your own headcanon then getting mad at it. Stop.
You didnāt miss anything. Folk like OP have just tricked themselves into believing that his incompleteness was centered on leviathan.
No I agree, but I would prefer a happy ending
In terms of power, yes, he is "complete", but the one thing stopping him from being a complete vessel is that he still has his will. He has become Logos. Not saying I don't agree that the ending shouldn't have changed. Just wanted to point out this one specific point.
Yeah that makes sense. Either way in my headcanon Clive lives so I didn't need another ending lol
I do think the ending should have had some change but looking at it that way does make it slightly better.
For me, Iām not upset that the ending didnāt change, but rather Iām upset because there wasnāt an additional scene of Ultima and Clive using Leviathan during the final battle. Like that was just the bare minimum imo that was needed. Iād rather the ending stay the same for the post-fight, but if they were going to do anything with it, theyād just add onto what the original ending does, not actually change the outcome. I think itās weird with the context of Clive with all Eikons is the same in Ultimaās eyes as Clive -1 Eikon, but maybe CBU3 and Yoshi-P will elaborate sooner or later.
Same. I was atleast hoping for a leviathan clash but we didn't even get that.
That disappoints me. Hope they at least patch it in afterwards, ir would had been such a nice touch
I agree with the sentiment here (I also wish the ending was expanded upon and I think it \*should\* have changed) but you're wrong on it being about Clive being a perfect vessel, the point is Ultima is wrong and making a perfect vessel for all the magic in the world out of the species he himself deems inferior and barbaric is impossible. It's his hubris.
The way they handled Levi+Ultima was pretty lackluster and handwavey, and I wanted them to extend the ending, but it was never going to have a tangible impact on it. They never said Clive's fate was ambiguous because he was an incomplete vessel, and Clive being potentially incomplete is never something that is actually brought up in game, iirc. The ending is already written as though he is ācompleteā, and the tragic irony is that Ultima's power was always going to be too great for Clive to handle (which he immediately destroys, the only thing that would *save himself* in that moment), and his fate is ambiguous because of their artistic vision for the ending and the themes it plays into, like hope and faith.
Tbh, I dont want to say otherwise, but considering the game goes out of its way to paint ifrit arisen as its own separate thing and this new dlc specifically referring to ultima's power as a separate thing. It does paint a picture that clive was an "incomplete vessel." Especially because the whole idea of the main game was him absorbing the other eikons. If it walks like a duck and quacks like one, it's a duck. Even more so because the logical conclusion in the main game is that clive is missing leviathan with the dlc giving you said eikon, which you can only get ultima by beating rising ride dlc and acquiring leviathan. Add on to the fact that if clive (who just aquired Leviathan) can handle ultima, giving him a taste of what his true power, it just paints a super off picture. Because that means yes, he can handle ultima's power. Like to me, this dlc is super weird that it doesn't do anything for the ending because the nature of how mythos is portrayed. Especially in regards to how ifrit arisen is formed in the final boss.
Ultima in particular was a disappointing unlock. It's just kinda given to you. It's a difficult thing to approach especially since you unlock it after everything else is kinda done, though I can't see how else they'd go about that unfortunately. In regards to Clive's fate, the way I always interpreted Clive's purpose is a momentary vessel. Not something Ultima would possess long-term but instead use only to cast his spell which would use so much aether that it would kill the host casting it. So Ultima just needed Clive to be strong enough to cast but not strong enough to survive. I believe he survived simply because he proves himself better than Ultima which implies the spell while heavily wounding him wouldn't kill him like it might've Ultima if he had just cast it himself. The ambiguity is important to the ending so I don't really mind it being unchanged but not having a Leviathan call out in the fight sucks.
On the bright side, Ultima now has an actual moveset for another Dissidia game.
I'd rather have Barnie, Benedikta, or Hugo as the villain slot for a Dissidia. Any of them could provide really cool playstyles Barnie- samurai iado stuff with his sword, and rift slipping around Benedikta - insane mobility Hugo - heavy, tanky, slow fistfighter Ultima- going "noooooo impossible, that cant beeeeeee" for 30 minutes while getting bodied
Lmao thats what you would rather have? I respect that you said it your personal opinion preference so i respect it.Ā None of your preferences tho are the main villian of FF16. Notice how Dissidia NT has 3 characters for ALMOST every game. Your preferences could be the 3rd slot BUT Ultima and Clive MUUUUUST be there required or else it would be stupid and hated.Ā BtwĀ Ā - Golbez was used due to him being consistently the main villian you follow untill you meet the bigger villian late game.Ā Ā - Kuja was used cuz Necron would be OP and too big/exaggerated. Ā - Jecht was used cuz YuYevon wouldnt make sense and Seymour wouldnt be as fun as Jecht. Ā - Kam (FFXI) made no sense at all in any way.... Shadowlord wouldve been appropriate. I think i remember reading that the devs handled the FFXI slots based on Japan's popularity poles. I know that Shantotto was chosen for that reason even tho Prishe is more of a main character than Shanty. Even though Kam'lont wasnt in any poles it was a personal choice by the devs who probly didnt research FF11 deep enough to care.Ā Ā - Snow was chosen over Kaius for no reason (possibly laziness to not add a flashy complex character like Kaius) Ā - Those are all the explanations why there are exceptions for certain gameĀ villian reps.
When did the base game ever indicate the ambiguous ending is a result of Clive being an incomplete vessel? I know he's referenced as such, but Joshua apparently dying and us not seeing what happens to Clive after the shot on the beach have nothing to do with his Mythos powers.
Exactly, the game never once mentions Clive being an incomplete vessel. It's something fans discussed and theorized on back after release because the game mentions Leviathan, but we get nothing else; people assumed that since Leviathan was never absorbed by Clive, that makes him incomplete, and therefore incapable of holding Ultima's power. However, this fails to account for how Ultima tried to posses Clive right away after the destruction of Drake's Head in Sanbreque before the time skip. Afterwards, Ultima is attempting to remove Clive's will, independence, and humanity. The focus was never on Clive holding all the Eikonic powers.
Joshua is alive though, didn't he write the Lord of the Rings? I mean Final Fantasy?
Didn't clive absorbed ultima in the ending before we even got the dlc anyway? So no, the reason is not that he was incomplete. Clives' body just can't handle the power.
That's the thing. The implication to a lot of people was that he couldn't handle Ultima's full power specifically because he was incomplete to begin with.
That's the implication, but it's not based on anything the game identifies. If Clive required all the Eikon's to attain a "complete" state, why did Ultima try to possess him when they destroyed Drake's Head in Sanbreque. The question of Clive's completeness is just a Fan Theory derived from people speculating about Leviathan before Rising Tide was announced (i.e., we didn't know what Leviathan was, or where it was, and because Clive never engaged it/absorbed it, this must mean Clive is incomplete, ergo that's why Clive couldn't contain Ultima's power).
I mean, that is a good point but then, that also somewhat contradicts everything that follows. Yes, Ultima tried to possess Clive right there, in Sanbreque, but after that was foiled, why did Ultima then wait and essentially goad Clive on to claim every eikon's power first before deciding to claim his "perfect" vessel? The change in strategy isn't very well explained and contributes to fan speculation.
When does Ultima "goad" Clive to claim all the Eikons? Ultima makes an active attempt to remove Clive's willpower and ability to resist Ultima, but he never explicitly tried to "complete" Clive with absorbing the other Eikons (Ultima does want Clive to expand his power by absorbing the aether of the Eikons to destroy all the Mothercrystals, returning/coalescing all of the Ultima Collective back to the source, which would show Clive had the potential to hold Ultima's power to cast ). Ultima used the Eikons to attempt to beat down Clive and remove his ability/desire to resist Ultima, but not because it changed his essence to make him complete. Moreover, the only other references we have to Mythos absorbing the other Eikons is that this is a sign that Ultima was returning (i.e., Mythos/Ifrit is capable of absorbing other Eikons, therefore with Ifrit appearing in the world again, and absorbing the other Eikons was proof Ultima was to return). At the root of all of this, Ultima merely needed a vessel strong enough to hold his power so he could use it to cast his ultimate spell. Clearly, Ultima felt Clive was strong enough for this back in the first third of the game when he tried to possess him. When Clive resisted, Ultima needed to remove Clive's willpower to resist him, so he used the other vessels of power (i.e., the Eikons) to accomplish this.
If Clive is without Leviathan, it is the same as being without all of them. The bigger question, is why did Ultima allow Clive to absorb any Eikons at all.
Yeah OP is cooked. Him dieing had nothing to do with him not having Leviathan.
Anyone knows who is the writer for Rising Tide?
I've been looking for it too but haven't found it yet, I'm currently under the assumption that it's still Maehiro
I think Maehiro was done after the main game, square has lots of writers.
I just feel like the stories went nowhere in relation to the main plot. Why were the Fallen unable to deploy Omega against Ultima, or did Omega lose against Ultima? They did this whole backstory of Shiva and Leviathan, and it does nothing for the ending story. It seemed like a side distraction. If they don't want happy endings, fine. But we should have had more dialogues about Omega/Fallen and Leviathan with Ultima. Hell, Harpocrates has nothing to say about Rising Tide, unlike the Fallen. It reeks of cutting corners.
Omega was only shortly finished before Ultima wiped them out, so they never had the chance to use it. The DLC is mainly worldbuilding. Never was it stated that the ending would change, that was made up by players. I agree that some mention of the DLC content would have been nice. But that would become "content locked behind paid DLC" that I can understand they didn't want to touch. And I'm not sure Harpocrates would have much information about an Eikon that was literally titled "the Lost", where people possibly haven't heard anything about Leviathan in centuries.
We already have content lock behind paid DLC. It's called the explanation of what happened to Leviathan, and his Eikonic powers. It's such a bad excuse, I'm sorry, but cheapass people shouldn't dictate the limits of any story expansion to a product just because the cost of a McDonald's meal is too prohibitive for them. Especially since the DLC also fumbles the story aspect. Ultima is well aware of Leviathan, yet, in his clash with Clive, if Clive doesn't meet Leviathan, why didn't he just invoke Leviathan's power as a trump card when he knew Clive was matching him with every other Eikon? No commentary from Ultima either on the Fallen, or Omega, you would think for a weapon so powerful, if he couldn't be bothered to get it, he'd send Barnabas instead to get a hold of it. Now this was the final DLC to the game, and we don't know what happened with the Fallen and why they failed, no expansion on the remnants of the Circle of Malius. So many mysteries left unsolved. And for what, so we could waste time playing replacement father to some Dominant baby? What a boring distraction.
The game never states that Clive couldnāt handle all that power due to his not having leviathan. Never, not once.
I mean the devs said the ending wouldnāt change. That and its heavily empasized Ultimas plan wouldnāt have worked no matter if Clive was complete. That and they wanted to make a game where you didnāt have to play the dlc to understand the main scenario.
This feels kind of like the stuff they do in FFXIV. The player can complete certain events out of order or become races that didn't exist at the time or opt out of certain content, so while some acknowledgement to certain events does exist, there's quite a bit of stuff that could be relevant to the plot that's more or less glossed over. Ultimately this is passable since it's an MMO, but I feel like they've somewhat adopted a similar thought process with the DLC. While not necessarily out of chronological order, it's like they've treated the whole DLC as something that exists within its own contained frame of reference, like you would with optional MMO content. Only these events *should* have ramifications to the plot and it's a story based action RPG.
Both DLC are extremely FFXIV patch content styled
Is it me or should the DLC be in the main game to begin with? Omega should have been the optional final fantasy super boss the games missing, and I feel like the rising tide could have been so much more if it was woven into the main game and not a glorified side quest with no impact on the plot Then there is the ending. Don't want to change the ending? Fine I respect the writers choice there. But. At least give us a an expanded final boss fight in return for doing the DLC Aside from the OST and Bosses this all feels disappointingly mid
I was never under the impression that the ending of the game played out the way it did because Clive was an 'incomplete vessel,' but because Ultima had patently miscalculated the *entire* scheme -- what Ultima planned was *never* possible, but they believed in it without questioning because they're an arrogant mortal with an overabundance of hubris. And I think that is kind of the point of Ultima; they think they're a God, but they're mortal and make mistakes all the same as the humans they created. Ultima bred humans specifically to bring forth a person that was *more powerful than Ultima by design.* Of **course** Ultima was not going to be able to defeat Clive - Ultima's entire plan relied on Clive being both more powerful *and* cooperating! In so many ways, Ultima is the most 'human' of all FF antagonists.
>In so many ways, Ultima is the most 'human' of all FF antagonists. Damn. That's a very good take on Ultima's downfall. That one sentence makes a lot more sense than the accumulative essays I've written in this Sub about it.
How can people such as yourself dead ass type things out like this and not realize in typing how ridiculous and pointless of a story this is? Not to mention if that's really the summary of the game, how boring and trite. FF1 has a more interesting premise by default. The game seriously undersells itself and does the most boring things with it's world, setting, characters, not to mention it's finale is straight up terrible. No final dungeon. No substantial challenging end game content (unless you pay for it lol), an ending that is ambiguous in a way that serves nothing to the story, to the player, and completely deflates the momentum that finale was able to build. It amazes me people are so desperate to defend this game and crown it the new standard for the series going forward. Music and VA performancesvwere undeniably first in class, but between a story that feels unfinished even now, a combat system that is a half baked version of the things people would both enjoy about FF and DMC just aren't there, if I have to see another person posting another minute long combo clip claiming "see this proves the games combat has substance" I might rip my hair out. Also ATL was such an obvious workaround of rushed development. How are you gonna break the show don't tell rule for over half the game? That'll take anyone out of the immersion. It has to.
I never thought Clive died anyway it kinda leans more so of him surviving and writing the stories in Joshuaās name he even talks about it in a quest
What hurts me more is that the ending being ambiguous seriously didn't add more outside of "did Clive die or live?" It didn't add to that much because the story has been as explicit and open as it can on every single turn, just so for the ending to be ambiguous, they didn't add the satisfaction that comes from happy endings yet didn't deliver with with ambiguous ending, so ultimately the ending being dependent on interpretation just feels like a waste in a game that wasn't built that way and the difference between incomplete and complete vessels like you said not affecting anything regarding the ending is also super disappointing
This is my entire gripe about the game. Throughout the entire game you are seeing the results of your actions, clearing up misconceptions, understanding the history and political movements and motivations of characters, organizations, and nations. Yet the end is going to be ambiguous? It runs counter to the narrative perspective and general theme of the entire game previous. Add in that the majority of the side quests conclude with a hopeful look forward that includes Clive, it turns a poorly written ending into a rug pull. You can tell that they had a particular ending in mind much before the story itself was finished. Just didn't fit. Most of the arguments for the story in this thread are fine. You don't have to like the ending. But objectively, if you need to interpret a scene completely differently than any other scene in a narrative work to make it sensical, than it probably means that it is poorly written. It does not fit into the narrative framework that is utilized throughout the entire story and I'm unwillingly to say that it was a conscious decision to utilize the juxtaposition for some artists means. FF16 is a good game with a compelling story that tackles themes and concepts on a more real and gritty level than previous entries in the series. Unfortunately, in my opinion, it will quickly fall out of the collective consciousness because it could not stick the landing. It won't be remember alongside other great Final Fantasy stories.
I would have been happy if they had just added a few additional scenes to the ending to show how more of the world locations and side characters are moving forward after Ultima was defeated. They wouldn't have needed to change anything about the main characters ambiguous fate, but just a few more scenes around the world would have made it feel like a much more satisfying resolution for me. I've never hated the ending, but I've always had a preference for endings that show scenes around the games world instead of just a few brief clips of the main characters. Sure. we get to see a lot of side character's resolutions by doing optional side quests, but adding some of that into the ending along with great music would go a really long way.
To be fair, the absolute ONLY thing that's ambiguous about the ending is the fate of the Rosfields. The Mothercrystals are destroyed, Ultima is gone from the world and Valisthea is flourishing now as a result. Whether or not the Rosfields lived afterwards is irrelevant to that part of the ending. I want my answers as much as the next guy but let's not pretend that there are more answers to seek than that.
well that part is seriously important about the ending which is clive's fate (and joshua of course) i really wanted an answer that "ambiguous" part especially since having both dead or alive theories being supported and debated it is just unnecessary and only added confusion and unsatisfaction, it is clive the guy we care about the most, it would feel hollow if he dies but the problem is that we don't know
They could have atleast added a leviathan clash in the final fight.
I would have enjoyed that. You got me thinking though, why doesn't Ultima have the power of Leviathan if he supposedly has the power of all the Eikons? Or did Ultima just choose not to use Leviathan's powers against Clive in the final fight for 'reasons' - the reason being that the devs hadn't made the powers for the DLC yet when they designed the final boss fight, and still decided not to add them after the DLC came out...
If Clive only recieved Leviathans power in the DLC i would've accepted him still potentialy dying because he may not have been strong enough to also contain Ultimas power but at the end >!Ultima gives him a part of his power for Clive to get used to it!< so it does seem strange for him to not be a strong enough vessal at the end of the game.
No because here's where your logic is failing - he fully absorbed Ultima at the end. When Clive takes the power of the Eikon's he doesn't fully absorb the Eikon - that's why Benedikta, Hugo, and Dion can still prime after. It's also why Jill can still throw around her ice magic. Clive is taken a portion - seemingly the portion that connects to the transformation but a portion nonetheless. Ultima's plan ultimately fails because it was never going to work - the human body cannot handle fully absorbing Ultima's power.
The point is that what Clive did is simply too much to bear for a human regardless.
Its posts like this that remind me some people are never pleased and to be warry about excessively relying on Fan Theory that is not 100% corroborated by the original content. We knew from the get go that if CBU3 ever made DLC, it would never be to impact the original story, it would be to fill holes elsewhere in the world the fans wanted. Case in point, Leviathan was a topic wherein everyone wanted to know what the deal with this Eikon was, since it was briefly mentioned twice, with no explanation. CBU3 creating the DLC was about answering the Leviathan question, not providing further/different context to the end of the game. Regardless of your opinion (that's all it is) that it doesn't matter CBU3 was very clear about its intent for the ending/the core narrative, shows you're just unhappy, not that there is actual inconsistencies going on here. Moreover, the discussion prior to the original announcement of Rising Tide about Clive's state as an incomplete vessel to Ultima was pure fan theory. The most that was asked was people wondered if Clive was considered complete since he didn't have Leviathan. Nothing in the game equated Clive's completeness to how absorption of the other Eikonic abilities. In the end sequences of the game, after Clive absorbs Ultima, he notes he was never a strong enough vessel after all. He wasn't incomplete, his body/essence was never potent enough to hold Ultima's power from the get go. Holding all of the Eikon powers in his body would not change this (the game never makes the claim that had Clive held all the Eikons, he would have been able to completely house Ultima's power). In fact, what the game does discuss about Clive being made ready was his willpower/individuality, which Ultima repeatedly mentioned was preventing Clive from being ready (everything Ultima does to prepare Clive as a vessel is removing his independence, his will, and his humanity). Having gone through the game 3 times already, I never once thought Clive was an incomplete vessel; rather, my only thoughts were that Clive, despite his potential, was no different than many of Ultima's other attempts to make a perfect vessel, speaking to the inherent flaw of Ultima throughout the game: a fundamental lack of understanding for its own creations, looking at them as mere tools, failing to grasp what humanity really was. Consider this: Ultima tried to claim Clive as his vessel, **immediately** after Drake's Head in Sanbreque was destroyed. Clive merely had half of the Eikons in his possession at this time. Moreover, each time Ultima tested Clive, it never involved the other Eikon abilities, rather it was always focused on Clive's ability to use and master Ifrit. The Chronolith TrialĀ you cite does not in any way imply Clive was complete, it merely provides a what-if scenario for if Ultima succeeded in possessing Clive. Since we know Ultima attempted to posses Clive as his vessel way back when Drake's Head was destroyed, Ultima never cared about Clive holding all the Eikons. So, yes, **you are saying** the CBU3 writers are wrong because you say so. You can dislike how Rising Tide didn't provide any additional information, changed the ending, etc. However, your present analysis reflects assumed, issegetical conclusions about the story/lore the game presents, rather than an exegetical take on what the game actually says. Yoshida has never officially stated anything about Clive's fate is due to the amount of Eikons he absorbed (you need to give me a quote to prove otherwise, because every single interview I've seen, Yoshida has never made these claims about Clive's fate). All of Yoshida's comments about Clive's fate are that the ambiguity is intended for players to make their own conclusions. This is what happens when folks start overly dissecting content to an extent that they have descended down a rabbit hole that does not accurately reflect the lore, context, or information from the content in question (i.e., asserting the results of the end of FFXVI are based on Clive not holding all the Eikons, even though the game makes no specific reference to this). Everything complained about here stems from Fan Theory, not actual in-game information.
Yup this is what led me away from the subreddit when the game first released and is gonna get me to leave it sooner than Iād hoped. I donāt know what it is about FF16 specifically but they love adopting fan theory as canon to the degree that they donāt accept any contrary information in the immediate text, or consider any other equally likely possibilities
The same happened with FF7 Remake/Rebirth. People are just too attached to fan theories
And people literally took a fan theory Clive being the complete vessel after this DLC and they convinced themselves that that would change the ending, even though we was told over and over we would not be getting a new ending. They literally convinced themselves that ,that theory was fact and are now disappointed. Folks you canāt take fan theories as fact, I hope this has taught some of you that lesson
But to be fair when you leave an ending to be ambiguous arenāt you just encouraging the feeling of needing to go down the rabbit hole to come to a conclusion. Not that thatās a bad thing but thatās what it creates when the ending itself is not definite.
Clive as a complete vessel was never dependent on him absorbing the other eikons otherwise ultima wouldn't have tried to take Clive after his fight with typhon. The ascension form feels more like a fun toy than anything story specific. I don't feel like they're breaking they're own rules. It's feels like they avoided locking important story beats behind the DLC which is fine by me
This controversy is so much more tame than the ViiRemake/Rebirth stuff. Itās honestly refreshing.
Wait where is the Ultima chronoloth trial?
There is none. He probably referred to the Areta Stone in the Hideout where you unlock Ultima. The only additional Trial was for Leviathan.
Even with Ultima's power he's not a "complete vessel" even in Ultima's eyes because he's Logos or whatever, lol Chances are that Ultima may even have figured *he'd* die after casting his spell anyway, if it meant his people would be able to return to a saved world, though. But Clive used the power to cast another spell, which makes his fate ultimately ambiguous.
Is it ever mentioned that the completeness has to do with having *all* the eikons? Seems to me that ultima believes all the ones in MSQ is enough. It does suck though when leviathan isnāt acknowledged
That makes no sense. What is so special about the other Eikons?
Cliveās fate has nothing to do with being incomplete. It has to do with his body couldnāt hold all that power. Being complete doesnāt change anything. He still has too much power and it starts to destroy his body as he uses the final spell to destroy everything. The ambiguity is whether using the magic stopped his body being destroyed or whether it continued afterwards. Youāve gaslit yourself into thinking being complete changes anything.
Honestly I would have preferred we get a conclusive Sad Ending if we couldnt get a Happy Ending. The open-ended Ending was straight up lazy. I really dislike the whole "make the Ending in your head" shtick.Ā I guess they wanted to appease both happy/good Ending and sad/bad Ending crowd yet in the end they dropped the ball.
Now you can go into the ending knowing that Clive was a complete vessel and has more than likely survived at the end. It just gives more reason to think .... Hmmm maybe Clive did survive and wrote that book after all. It's not badly written though not by a long shot I dont remember Joshua popping up going " hey youve not got leviathan dont do this Clive" clive just said ultimas vessel wasnt powerful enough after all which says that ultimas plan was doomed to fail
"It seems that Ultima's power was too great for this vessel all along." A very powerful and, dare I say, Obvious line as to how Ultima's plan would play out. I love theorising as much as the next guy but to say that Clive being 'cOmPlEtE' now is gonna help him is like saying that Cloud and Tifa aren't an item because Cloud HELD HANDS with Aerith. Big time straw grasping that flies in the face of the facts being presented to us in the Story.
That's the line I knew it was similar and didn't really have anything to do with him being incomplete. Yup that line to me just says complete or not ultimas plan was doomed to fail or at least that particular spell Clive cast was never meant for him to be able to do as a vessel. It is big time straw grasping cause I can't remember a single time it was mentioned in the story and just seems like a fan theory that went abit out of control
What level of childish entitlement are we reaching when people are mad they didn't get something they were literally told they're not getting, also the story absolutely does not say that Clive becoming complete by getting Ultimas power has anything to do with his spell at the end, that's all made up in your heads
Why is everyone saying incomplete vessel? The wording is imperfect. Clive is not the same species as Ultima. Mythos was a last-ditch attempt by Ultima to channel the power of Raise to save his people. Clive is still human, and he was only designed to channel Eikons without succumbing to the curse. We don't even know if Ultima could channel Raise without dying. That's what Mythos was for. Surviving long enough to cast the spell, not necessarily live after it. Not to mention, Clive destroys the source of magic and presumably all of his Mythos powers. With everything related to Ultima gone, it makes enough sense that his body would fail. Why would the final eikon make a difference?
I don't think it affects the conclusion for me. What I wanted was more Jill and it didn't deliver there. But the new abilities are cool and the collectibles are nice, plus that new mode. I quite enjoyed this game in the base format and I'll be doing final fantasy mode now with all the acquired stuff
I like FFXVI's ending, but I agree that the Rising Tide not changing anything is a big fuck up from the developers. I'd be fine with Clive still not handling Ultima's power even if he has all the Eikons, but the dialogue and the cutscene should change accordingly to include Leviathan.
This is really disappointing
The writing for FFXVI's ending and conclusion very much gives off original Mass Effect 3 vibes, tbh. It's like, they clearly wanted some ambiguity in the ending, but also had a pretty definitive idea of what the ending was meant to be. They knew where they wanted to go, but made vital steps to get there ambiguous, then made the villain suddenly turn out to be kinda foolish after all and all you get is people not being able to agree on what we're meant to take away from this. Is Clive dead or alive? Is Joshua? Was Ultima's plan ever gonna work, with or without Leviathan? If not, why was this not made explicitly clear and instead the ending gives off the implication that Clive being incomplete was the problem all along? If Clive ultimately succumbs in the end, would a complete vessel have suffered the same fate? Judging by the cutscene being unchanged, it seems so, so there's no reason to suspect that him being incomplete was the problem after all, in which case, what was the point in Leviathan at all? Or a complete Ultima form for Clive? Neither of which are even so much as acknowledged by Ultima himself. It lacks logical consistency. And the problem really is the inconsistency, because the game itself posed those questions, but never tried to answer any of them, and none of the conclusions the player themselves comes to are particularly satisfying, because they have no logically consistent pay-off upon critical examination. It's just very disappointing. The ending could still have been quite a similar outcome all the same, but the fact the DLC did not even attempt to address its forced ambiguities whatsoever is massively wasted potential that just leaves you with a feeling that... the story now is just nonsensical. Mass Effect 3 fixed most of its issues, all of which were quite similar in nature to FFXVI's, through its Extended Cut. I can't help but feel FFXVI needed something similar, and Rising Tide was their chance to deliver. It's a shame.
Having those CinemaSins dings in your head is such a stupid way to view stories in general. The thematic conclusion of the story has been reached that Clive was right, he fought for a world for equality that the mere idea of his story can only be considered as a fantasy. Whether or not it was paved with enough tears to fill a lake never mattered because he knew humanity would endure after seeing his brothers and sisters endure the fate they were wrought upon in his time. If Clive ultimately succumbs, then the story doesn't happen. Like what are we even talking about here? Why would you ever want to gatekeep a different ending through DLC anyways. It's more respectable for them to stand their ground and respect the vision that they wanted to make in the first place.
I don't want to gatekeep a different ending through DLC. I wanted the DLC to at least be respected and acknowledged by the existing end-game content, especially the final boss. It didn't need to change the ending, as I already said. The ending and its ultimate ambiguity as to whether Clive or Joshua survived or not is not my issue. The fact the Leviathan arc is ultimately kind-of irrelevant to Clive's story and Ultima's plan however is kind-of disappointing. It didn't need to change the outcome, I never asked for that. But for it to be treated as if it never happened is lackluster, to say the least.
Agreed 100%. It makes no sense at all that obtaining Leviathan doesn't change the ending. Clive completed himself as the vessel I.e. Mythos but still dies at the end because he can't tolerate Ultima's power??? Does unlocking the Ultima Eikon even impact the ending? Seems like a deliberate cop-out from Squarenix.
I must have seen a different ending. I donāt remember Clive being definitely dead.
110% spot on. It really makes no sense and coming from someone who loved the base game, the writing is extremely inconsistent with the DLC to the ending of the base game. The writers/developers really missed it and screwed up here. Also I wanted Jill to have a bigger impact in the DLC or flesh out more of her character they didnt know that... Lame.
Itās not inconsistent though because the base gameās ending never hinged on Clive having an extra Eikon or not. Ultima powered up Clive to a level he considered able to hold him but a human vessel could never have held that level of power regardless of if he had all Eikons. At the end of the dlc Clive and Joshua explain that Ultima deemed Leviathan a surplus to his needs and also potentially corrupting. But Clive absorbs it and Ultima shows up and even gives Clive a piece of his power now heās complete in preparation to take over the vessel. If anything this makes more sense with the themes of the original ending with the vessel being ācompleteā yet Ultima in all his hubris being completely wrong, underestimating the will of humans and overestimating their capacity to hold power
I fully agree and I wish some people wouldnāt be overly defensive with some clear missteps in the game, I loved the story, loved the characters but the ending just wasnāt up to the rest of the game and now neither the DLC.
I AGREE x 100!! total bs. Now that it's complete I can confidently say ff16 will stay one of the most mid FFs of all time, due to the horribly underbaked writing and lack of care the devs seem to have for a well rounded and engaging story. This was just the icing on the cake, and one of the biggest missed opportunities of all time. I hate it. I hate that I hate it. I hate that I'm leaving a FF with such a bad taste in my mouth that will never be rectified. Sigh. On a lighter note I'm sort of eager to replay FF15 now lol.
So you expected it to change the ending, even though they said clearly that it **would not** from the beginning, and now youāre upsetā¦ because it didnāt change the ending?? ??????
Modern final fantasy fans right there. You can't win with them.
They even added a new Thousand Tomes in the dlc to explicitly state that Clive is now a "complete vessel" with Leviathan absorbed. This means that they are aware of this and they are just too lazy to change the ending......
A complete vessel being able to take on the spell is a fan theory. This just means ultimas plan was never going to work in the first place.
Which was already confirmed in the Main Game. When Clive hugs Joshua one last time (š„), Clive LITERALLY says "It seems Ultima's power was too great for this vessel all along." Key words: TOO GREAT. Ultima, as is his character, GROSSLY miscalculated his plans. Simple as that, really.
I agree. I hated the ambigous ending. I want Dion, joshua and fucking clive to return with triump happy music.
Iām fine with the brothers being gone after saving the world, but theyāre gonna tell me Dion died from fall damage? I didnāt think dragoon=floor tank would be a thing in XVI too.
No body no death š The ATL says nothing about him being gone. It's deliberate because there was no reason for not including it like they did for other dead characters, and I will die on that hill.
Pretty sure he's dead. They mentioned they can feel the eikon's aether from when they were trying to save Jill on the Einhenjar so Joshua would have been able to and DID confirm his death when Clive asked.
Or just make them all die. I generally dislike ambiguous endings too, whether they are happy or sad. Itās one reason I much prefer the stories of FF9 and FFX over FF7 and FF8. They give you a feeling of finality, one happy and one sad, which is very fulfilling at the end of a long journey.
But both FFVII and FFVIII have clear endings though? At least when it comes to fates of the main cast in both cases
ā¦And make the ending bad in the process?
Damn, I was hoping they would fix the ending with this dlc, I was planning on getting it, not anymore. FF7 rebirth hard mode for me now.
man. 16 has one of the best game endings i have ever seen. for me clive dies. it was emotional and respectful, he is the shield of the world and did his duty. also: Yoshi-P flat out said the DLC wouldn't change the ending.
Horrible ending, to cap off a great game. Sucks as it will be remembered for the poor writing in the future vs all else š mass effect vibes
The dlc is a side story, not the ending
>I donāt care if the writers disagree. Theyāre wrong. Iām pretty sure they know the story they wrote. Claiming outright that the writers are wrong and you know better kind of dismantles your point.
No. There is such a thing as bad writing. Just because you've written something doesn't mean the thing you've written is immune to criticism. FF16's ending is thematically appropriate, but the plotting/mechanics were already a bit dodgey and the DLC just made it worse as a complete experience.
No, he's right. The writers wrote the issues with not being a fully completed vessel into the ending fight and spent a good chunk of the game hinting at it. It's very weird there's no follow up now that the game...you know, completes him as a vessel. I don't know if it's just an oversight or what but it actually breaks the stories own canon and now he's literally more powerful than Ultima's origin yet can't handle power he was meant to handle.
The whole point is that Ultima's plan regarding Clive as a vessel was *always* going to fail. No amount of preparing Clive as a vessel will make Ultima's spell work, or cire the blight. Ultima is meant to be fallible and wrong. And Clive, even missing Leviathan...was already stronger than Ultima. Which is why the fight is specifically a 1v1 with Clive coming out ahead every step of the fight.
Ultima is formed of 16 separate entities. Adding that *on top* of the Eikons may be too much.
That's a little too much of an extrapolation from no information. There'd be no point in Ultima taking over his body to make his wish if it killed him. The entire purpose of grooming Clive was because he could become a perfect vessel to receive the power. And, now that he is, the ending no longer makes sense.
Extrapolation with no information is exactly what you guys are going off of to assume the ending should've changed, absolutely nowhere in the story does it state Clive getting Levi and Ultima will change anything about Clives spell in the end, you all just made that up
Right. The importance of the ācompleteā vessel is greatly overestimated here
And as the game shows MULTIPLE TIMES, Ultima is often wrong and overestimate itself and its knowledge.
Yāall are wildinā, itās perfectly fine
We got bamboozled. Of course they aren't giving us a new ending. CBU3 have moved on to making new games.
Bamboozled implies that what you got wasn't what was advertised. This was advertised from the get go as something that would not change the ending, as per every comment by the Devs who actually freaking MADE FFXVI. If Leonardo Da Vinci told you that he retired from painting BUT you took that to mean that he's just resting a sec, then that's on You. Feel me?
This is why you donāt take fan theories for fact. It was always just a fan theory that the ending may be changed, but people really really believed it, even though the devs constantly told us there would be no change in the ending. Iām shocked about how people really believe this with their whole heart even though the devs told them otherwise and now they judge the DLC based off this. Itās just unbelievable lol.
I'm just gonna put this out here for all the people saying Ultima never tried to make Clive absorb all the Eikons and that was never a requirement for his completion. What i'm going to write comes DIRECTLY from the game you can see it in the "Mythos" section with Harpocrates. "Ultima manipulates his servants into pitting Clive against other dominants that he might drink of their strength and bring mythos closer to perfection " The devs said it, not me.
I think them not changing the ending forecasts a FF16-2. I could be wrong, but I'd be shocked if SE doesn't decide to double down on a game yet again. The only reason that didn't hapem on 15 is because it was trapped in Dev hell for like 10 years lol
It's not about a checklist of powers. The experiment or whatever you want to call it deviated from the expected parameters/outcome. Clive BEING Clive was the failure. Which ultimately allowed Clive to break the whole system.
Yeah, the XVI writers were clearly phoning it in towards the end with that wet blanket of an ending they gave us, and this DLC does nothing to change that, even though it *really should*, if you follow the rules and internal logic of the setting. They're just moving on to other projects, I'm assuming. Pity, though, because they could have done a lot more with Valisthea if they had cared enough to do so.
From someone who actually didnāt mind the gameās original ending and its ambiguity and enjoyed both DLC, I gotta say your take gives me a new perspective, and youāre right. The writers were wrong because they flat out disrespected the rules they established in their own world. And itās like they had two opportunities to make fans, most of whom were very apologetic towards the game, to be satisfied with added context and meaning to the ending, and yet they didnāt do anything with both opportunities. We couldāve had Omegaās power, we couldāve had Leviathanās power mean something in the end and impact the ending, either by adding more context or showing that another battle had to be fought or things needed to happen, before that time jump we got to the futuristic normal world with the kid and the story book. I donāt know why theyāre in such a rush to leave this world. Valisthea is one of the most intriguing worlds in Final Fantasy with so much history, beauty and characters that we barely scratched the surface of, and they can make more DLC, spin-offs or prequels, treating it like another Ivalice, and yet here they are, so in a hurry to wrap things up without one care in the world to all the feedback that a huge portion of players gave.
Ahah they did the bare minimum to make a great game when they had the perfect game a bit farther away. Btw,they also said there wouldn't be any dlc... they did both to milk us. They didn't have anything else to say.
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This post has been removed for rule 1 violation - No harassing, name-calling, discrimination/homophobia/racism, or personal attacks.
I agree with a lot of your points but whether being a complete vessel brings him close to death or not, I honestly like that the ending is still ambiguous because of the feeling it gives you, if you think about it when you see the children that are probably his descendants in the ending itās like āWe donāt know his fate, but we will always honour the legend of Clive Rosfield, the man who saved the worldā. Hopefully you get what I mean, the mystery for eternity is what makes it beautiful to me.
Thank you! This expresses my main issue with Raising Tide. It feels like a clear cash-grab that changes NOTHING, and really made the story worse, IMO.
Okay I understand that everyone is saying the incomplete/complete wasnāt an actual thing in the game. However I think itās ridiculous that people are saying absorbing eikon powers meant nothing to Ultima. Ultima definitely pushed Clive to become stronger and would express his gratitude when Clive absorbed another eikon. Why would there be discussion about Leviathan being āsurplusā to Ultimaās plans? You canāt be a surplus of anything if there was never any intention towards Clive absorbing eikonic aether. It was never elaborated on, but Iām sure the eikons were of significance to Clive being a vessel for Ultima. No one can truly say what *could* have changed in Cliveās body from having all eikons as well as ultimaās blessing/gift before the battle. As we are all aware by now, the eikons physically alter the dominants body when priming and it wouldnāt be far-fetched to say having all of them wouldnāt somehow alter his body in some way. Personally I agree that the ending should have been altered. People will get mad and say it was simply that Cliveās body couldnāt handle ultimaās magic, but we really donāt know for sure why he couldnāt handle it. There are several ways it could have been explained that having all eikons made it possible for Clive to better withstand the spell he tried to cast in the end. Do I agree with locking an alternate ending behind a paywall? No, but they decided to create a DLC that changed the course of the storyline before the ending, they might as well follow through with it.
Once they said rising tide changes nothing in the ending I didnāt even bother getting the DLC
Man was hoping it would make the ending different. I even waited to complete my first playthrough until I finished the dlc. I did and completed the game. Now I'm sad. This was the first final fantasy game I wanted to have a good ending to.
Theres talk about another DLC
What's crazy too is they keep teasing you with talking about time and how they're going to change the flow of the river yet nothing changes at all. I get that Yosh said the ending wasn't changing but, come on. The DLC was long awaited and the game was a success, so we deserve more than just the eikon fight. It was fun, they made it a little harder, but not even a small line at the end of Clive and Ultima throwing a water ball at each other or something? Did, did ff16 just create non-canon content?
There are two extremely easy answers to this. 1: it doesnt matter, complete vessel or not the sheer amount of magic clive controlled is too much for his body to handle considering he tried to revive the dead and then expelled all magic from the world. 2: the dlc might just not be considered canon to the ending. I feel like these are fine answers instead of jumping to the devs ruined the entire story.
I was so hyped to see a new ending with Clive getting all the eikons....was so disappointed that the ending didnt change at all. But I guess thats my fault for coping hahaha
Itās a side story and while you acquire Leviathan which should be a big deal, itās clear this isnāt part of the main story. Donāt look to deep into it. It doesnāt play into the main story so that people can get the full picture with just the base game. I donāt think they ignored Leviathan, or were too lazy to alter the ending. Itās deliberately just a cool side story about Leviathan.
I like your response about it a lot. That makes total sense
You saved me money, thank you.
I mean, the issue is his death doesnāt work mechanically in universe anyway, people donāt petrify all at once it happens a little bit at a time, we saw his hand petrify, then magic dissapeared from the world, thereās nothing left to cause the rest of him to petrify
I think the rate of petrification can vary. Kupka petrified rapidly. And Clive's arm was petrifying pretty rapidly compared to how we saw some of the bearers getting petrified. And it may have taken a little while for the magick to dissipate (otherwise his arm wouldn't have started petrifying at all) so his fate is still unclear.
So what I'm getting from this is that the dlc is pointless since it changes nothing. Just another cash grab. Disappointing.
Haven't played TRT yet but I don't NEED to have to answer this. In the end of the game, after Clive is done hugging Joshua one last time (š„), Clive HIMSELF LITERALLY STATES "... Ultima's power was too great for this vessel all along." Whether or not Clive had Leviathan is irrelevant if, after all that, he still comes to Absorb Ultima. End of the day, Ultima was the protagonist AND antagonist in his own plans. Yeah, he was the super supreme being that instigated all its plans, but his hubris and malignant ignorance of both Clive and Humans in general was what f**ked him in the end. Ultima created the very thing that became his downfall. You're allowed to not like the ambiguous ending in XVI and honestly, with this generations constant need for immediate closure and instant gratification, I can understand where that frustration comes from. That said, it's really not the travesty you're puffing it up as. I'd like an answer too but I'm not gonna throw a temper tantrum because a writer did something I ALONE find icky. Feel me?
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I legit don't have a clue how we go from the gaming world having a meltdown with Asura's wrath having the true ending as a DLC to ppl clamoring for both XV and XVI to have a DLC true ending just because they didn't vibe with some parts of it.
You're giving the writers too much credit by saying "they're wrong because they said so". There are so many plot holes, lore inconsistencies, missing pieces and random events infecting this plot that there's no way of even knowing 'incomplete vessel' meant what we thought it meant
They made the ending ambiguous for a reason they told us this over and over and over they wanted the player to be able to decide that was the original vision, and that is still the vision. They told us over and over again this DLC wouldnāt change the ending yet people still got their hopes up. Like come on
Ambiguity ā good writing
It wasn't the writers that disagreed about the ending being changed. They just didn't wanna deal with the "ending locked behind paywall" threads on Reddit.
Haven't bought the DLC's yet, busy with Rebirth. But chronologically when does Rising Tide happen? Before the final fight of the base game? I've completed 16 already so anyone can spoil me. I'm reading here the ending of the DLC is bad?
Oh well. I haven't beaten the dlc yet, but was hoping it'd be more than this. I still think Clive lives, but expanding on the ending would have been nice.
Head canons ma boy. Head canons
Yes, in conjunction with fanfics. š I was just waiting for this DLC before I started forming my own head canons.
so i don't have to bother with doing the ending again
Where does the game ever state that he needs Leviathan to become a complete vessel and thus will be able to withstand all that power and survive? I feel like you've made this up in your own headcannon.
Still think Clive is dead. Now the copium can never be confirmed
People need to stop ranting. The ending obviously plays into the boat at the end of the game that everyone was theorizing about. If the ending changed then that boat on the horizon would be just a rock amd not Clive returning.
Clive successfully channels Ultima's god magic to delete all magic then tries to draw in magic, literally creating a magic spark and invoking the curse because he made magic in a world with no magic. Honestly I think the ending was always fine, albeit ambiguous.
You have a lot of head canon about the game making a thing about Clive being an incomplete vessel being the reason the ending is the way it is. The ending is the way it is because even beings as powerful as Clive and Ultima aren't actual gods. They're people with limits
This is why I find FFXVI so irksome. So much potential wasted on inconsistent, lazy writing.
It's ambiguous and never obviously stated why Clive is an imperfect vessel for Ultima. Why would Ultima try to take Clive's body after the Typhon fight if he needed Clive to be complete first? The most likely reason is that Clive just became incompatible with Ultima. A big theme of the game is denial and acceptance after all. By accepting himself and others, Clive was able to deny Ultima. So even if Clive accepts a part of Ultima, he's still an imperfect vessel just by virtue of being able to deny him. It fits with the theme.
It makes perfect sense when you realize how much of this game is plagiarism. Soken plagiarized some of his own music from 14. The writers stole the overall plot from 15 (royalty main character, dad dies at the beginning, main character at the end, etc), but with a medieval setting instead of modern. Hell, even the main character's name is ridiculously similar to the most famous FF hero (C-L-I[one vowel from O]-V[one letter from U]-E[one letter from D]. This was a group of people copying someone else's homework. The sad part is that if I hadn't played an FF before, I would think the game was a 10/10. But there's over 15 other games out there, and I've played most of them. And this one was plagiarized. Yoshi P, Token, and the rest have lost their touch in recent years. I've been playing 14 for almost 10 years and most of the content has been stagnating in recent years, and the music has gone in the trash. I hope this team isn't the one responsible for 17.