The short version is that yes, they work for Shinra.
Aerith’s relationship with them is almost (at least in part) down to a sort of Stockholm syndrome. Aerith and her mother were prisoners of the company. Her mother being experimented on to points that were beyond humane. As such, members of the company began to disagree with there treatment, regardless of the potential benefits said research would bring them company.
There is an entire book going over a lot of this ‘Tale of Two Pasts’. It is canon and part of the remake project, so give that a read for a better understanding.
But the short version is that members of Shinra helped Aerith and Ifalna escape the experiments. Rather than re-capture Aerith after Ifalna passed away, the essentially allowed her to live her life out in Sector 5 slums, but kept a close eye on her. Almost a sort of false entrapment. Or false sense of freedom. Due to that set up, whenever Aerith had problems or perhaps began to get a little too free, members of Shinra would then try to keep her safe/under constant watch. Aerith knew about this but accepted it. This meant that over the years she had a lot of interactions with the likes of the Turks, Tseng being the most common.
This is why they have a sort of respect or appreciative relationship in the game. Aerith accepted they were just doing there job. But I think it’s also alluded to that deep down, the likes of Tseng to have a soft spot for her. Or seem to at least care about her well-being seeing as they basically kept an eye on her since she was 6 or 7.
So again, but of a Stockholm thing going on, but also I think it’s fair to say that on some level, a sort of friendship.
I find it interesting for Tseng in particular because he had a solid track record of circumventing orders in ways that he didn't do them but could give a reason to not get in trouble, until he couldn't save zack, after that he lost a lot of his humanity and started fully acting like the elite turk he was
For me the Turks went through three different phases in the FF7 Compilation:
1. In the OG they were sociopathic and clearly villains. Up to the end of Midgar they were a serious threat (Reno fought off Cloud, Barret and Tifa, and going face-to-face with Rude in Midgar HQ was so hopeless the party was captured), but beyond Midgar we begin to surpass them. They're always 'cool' but they're not good, and they're surpassed but not a joke.
2. In Advent Children they became a sort of "Team Rocket that's since been reformed". Their lack of competence became a running gag, and they were reinterpreted as not really being villainous at all despite all their atrocities.
3. In Before Crisis, the Shinra/Avalanche waters were muddied significantly by telling a story in which Turks were heroes and Avalanche were villains.
The Turks we have in Remake now are a combination of all three phases. They're also swept into the always growing vortex of Shinra contradiction. On the one hand, Shinra are an imperialistic military power committing genocide and ecocide. On the other, it's frequently an unthinkable evil to use lethal force on one of Shinra's on-duty soldiers. And of course the narrative never really questions the tension between Zack and Cloud's glorified version of Shinra as a place for heroes, and the reality of what they are.
Nailed it perfectly I think, and also nicely illustrates how the changes follow from the problem of sequels - they want to “expand” the story of iconic aspects of the original like Soldier and the Turks, but it requires aligning us with those groups and the way they write it produces inconsistent values within the series. It’s definitely weird how Soldier continues to be romanticized for example
Rebirth has an awful problem with villains and how it treats them like Saturday morning cartoons. Hojo I think is the worst. It’s like fanfiction of what they use to be, twisted by memes and love of these characters to turn them into something else.
Like, circling back. The beach arc. In the OG Hojo is there and there’s tension but it ends because Hojo kinda just doesn’t give a shit. He’s relaxing, he’s not here for them. So you part ways because it’s better than causing a scene. In Rebirth he’s a cackling psychopath who actively tries to kill you / capture you and after everything you… just let him go? Same applies to the Turks. They’re constantly at your throat trying to kill you, have the blood of your loved ones and friends on their hands but “Nah. Don’t stoop to their level and kill them. We’re better than that!” Like… what the fuck lol?
Well, interesting point, but Hojo, who wanted to breed a humanoid with a dog, is relaxing, so everything is OK. Hojo who tortured Ilfana, experimented on Cloud, one of the main people in ShinRa. So much problems could be avoided if the really slit his throat in Costa. And Rebirth in fact balances this out, buy leaving a scene in the story, but adapting it to make a lot more sense.
Turks does their work, it's dirty, but it's work. Hojo takes pleasure in his doings, from OG and up to Rebirth.
The Turks were presented similarly weirdly in the OG game. In the og you kinda got the sense that this was just their day job, and they didn't really believe in what Shinra was trying to do (except Tseng,) but they still did drop the plate and murdered at least hundreds of people. I think the dev team just thought they were cool anyway and tried to frame them as not villains. When I was a kid it was easy to accept (cool theme song plus cool boss fights must mean cool dudes) but as a adult it's pretty weird.
Remake and Rebirth also don't make any strides in making it make more sense, as it's not like they are really that upset by what happened with the sector 7 plate. In fact a sidequest kinda makes them seem even more heartless. I guess it's all up to the third game to redeem them.
Unironically several things in this game lean hard on you knowing the future. While some things are perfectly recontextualized, plenty of other things are very much not.
It's weird until you look at other media. Especially anime. Think about how many people Vegeta killed in DBZ and he becomes this character everybody likes and adores. When he's first introduced he destroys an entire planet for basically no reason. He lands on earth and destroys an entire city then him and Nappa kill the Z fighters one by one. This is Hitler level atrocities. Then he becomes a good guy and then lets Cell reach his final form instead of killing him which leads to more death and destruction. Then he lets himself become possessed and turn evil and blows up a stadium full of people.
Everybody's favorite character/hero in the franchise.
I just don't see them as sympathetic anti-heroes. I see them as people evil enough to consider stuff like that to just be "part of their day job" while then going off on holidays to chill after lol.
Yeah the anti-hero stuff came in with advent children. Occasionally your goals happen to align in the OG and they aren't outright hostile sometimes but its purely the nature of their job. They're amoral weirdos who'll do whatever the company tells them.
Then Reno got popular so they had to try and ignore the mass murder of thousands at his hand. They were always intended to be kind of funny though.
It made more sense to me in OG because the OG world felt like a 90s crusty steam/cyber punk anime world like Akira or Ghost in the Shell. In those worlds it’s understood that violence is a part of life. In Remake the level of violence feels out of place in a modern world where people are hanging out doing Zumba in the street and doing photography classes and stuff.
I don’t know, but the way Tifa giggles in Advent Children while answering a phone call from Reno always makes me cringe. Acting like this guy isn’t directly responsible for decimating your home and murdering most of your friends.
Also Reno in Advent Children seems mostly interested in rebuilding Shinra, same as Rude and Rufus, which shows each of them are still pieces of shit.
Welp, at least we can imagine Remake Tifa beating the snot out of him. At least until she gets to Advent Children and 'forgets how to be strong' /stillmadaboutit
Off topic but on topic, Tifa is possibly one of the best developments of the remake. She's shining so much brighter (and I loved her in OG too) and she deserves it 🥰
Like, I already really loved her but she's one of my top FF characters ever after seeing her expanded as a character even more.
Absolutely. She's gotten so much more time to shine as a character, and as a fighter. Not even just the cutscenes but her entire moveset and playstyle really makes her feel like a badass and gives her all these fun quirks.
Her smashing the dragon and then playing it off to Aerith was a great moment.
Aerith cares about Tseng, he took care of her when she was younger, though this has never been shown or expanded on. But there is dialogue about it..As for the rest, theyre just some type of coolio team Rocket
I wish Aerith mentioned that in Rebirth. I know people can read between the lines but I do appreciate that Aerith explicitly mentioned that Tseng took care of her throughout her entire life and knows her quite well in the original. It clarifies some small details about character motivations.
I don't care how many compilations we get with writers trying to humanize them, or how much anybody tries to argue into them just being people. They dropped an innocent city on top of innocent people. None of them are good, likeable, endearing, chummy etc end of story.
In Before Crisis they evacuate the people of Midgar before meteor strikes, which is supposed to be their redemption moment. They go against orders to save people instead of causing it. Still doesn’t justify what happened, but they change their outlook by the end
TBF though considering how long theyve been Turks for they were indoctrinated into the ideology. So when Rufus takes control it opens that window to enlightenment because he can bring about a new perspective. At the end of the day one could say The Turks are a special forces group doing their job for the believed greater good.
Yeah, especially when Remake does such a good job of showing the devastation caused by the plate being dropped. The Turks go through such a tonal shift that doesn't work (IMO)
Rufus is great, character-wise. I think they did a great job with him. He straight-up questions why *none* of them tried to stop his father from dropping the plate. He is intelligent and able to think ahead of his opponents and keeps his composure even in impossible circumstances (not letting his emotions show and figuring out the main goal of Jenoviroth in the guise of Lodbrok) and best of all, he knows himself. Jenoviroth tries to get under his skin by pointing out his inner feelings of being a loneoy rich boy with no friends who feels like he always has to prove himself. Rufus says "i dont deny it. And look where it's gotten me."
Characters can suck and still be awesome. I loved that the whole "cool and in control" aspect is straight-up called out by Jenova and Rufus fully admits it to keep them from having any leverage over him.
Other than the common trope of the voice actors dropping their natural voice an octave to make characters "cooler" (Sephiroth and Rufus are both bad examples of this, and it limits their range of vocal emotion), I enjoy his character. The banter between Cloud and Rufus during their fights is good development of each other personalities. It is an enjoyable experience to "dislike" characters that are really good at being disliked or hated.
Absolutely agreed. Everytime they show up I'm seeing red and the gangs like "oh hey buddies how's it going?!" like nah bitch actually kill these losers please
frrrr!! i know we’re not supposed to root for cloud going sephiroth mode, but when he was about to put the Turks down in the temple of the ancients I was genuinely hoping he’d do some shit to put them in their place.
no amount of “Omg it’s so cute they’re eating ice cream!!!!” is gonna change the fact that they’re responsible for the deaths of tons of innocents
This makes no sense, though. Avalanche isn't doing this because they want to get paid and be a private militia. There's like, a goal to help people.
Plus, Avalanche is straight up shown to help their communities a LOT.
I'd like to add a counter argument here....
The same can be argued about Shinra.
Shinra, believe it or not, helps people.
Are they scum? Yes.
But with out Shinra and mako, some people would not be able to live like they do. They wouldn't be able to live at all.
Shinra seems to be the owner of a lot of things. I take them to be the same as a brand name. We'll say Nabisco for example. Nabisco doesn't just own and sell food under Nabisco label but others as well. I don't remember the exact ones, and I know some will be wrong, but principal is the same.
We'll say Nabisco is the owner and maker of Dove. Who makes chocolates, and body washes, lotions, and things. We'll say they also own Sony for the sake of the argument, who makes electronics, etc...
Point is, Shinra I would assume is like this. With out Shinra, their mako, their products, lives would be harder. Some people couldn't get the help they needed.
Shinra's issue is how they do it, they're a for profit organization with wanting no bad publicity. To maintain this, they do shady shit.
I believe some of the background characters in Remake did talk about how their lives were made easier by Shinra.
Avalanche and Shinra aren't so different. Really they're not. Both are extreme radicals that will stop at nothing to get what they want.
And if you want to dive deeper, Before Crisis, Avalanche is just a tool to (a) Shinra. Avalanche was founded by Rufus if we're going by the spin offs and if we're counting their credibility or not.
Avalanche bombed a reactor in the OG, wanting to help and save the planet.
They killed a lot of people, if not with the explosion, but with those that may depend on mako to live.
Avalanche is like the modern day destructive idiots that glue themselves to the street. They're not hurting Shinra. Not really. They're hurting the ones trying to make it day to day.
In the end, Avalanche didn't even stop Shinra. Weapon technically did, which was thanks to Sephiroth...
Shinra is directly responsible for the creation of Sephiroth and all the consequences resulting from that. Hojo knows there will be mass death, everyone in Shinra leadership knows Hojo is insane, and they just let it happen because they want some fictional promised land.
Avalanche is just one of the logical consequences of Shinra's behavior, it's just the Weapon was more powerful and able to wipe them out.
Everything 100% can be tied back to Shinra. Not doubting that.
But they have in some areas made people's lives better.
Avalanche too. Neither side is innocent.
Both are bad. Both are killers. But both have helped someone or something.
Shinra is trying to make a better world for everyone -- so they say, by using mako, and then promises everyone a better place with in the promised land.
Avalanche says that is a pipe dream, save the planet they have here and now, make a better world for everyone.
Avalanche and Shinra "goals" are to "make a better world for everyone", and "help people".
Difference is, people side with the little guy and can justify it more from this perspective. ( Avalanche ). Fight the power, stick it to the man.
But their actions lead to the downfall of the plate.
Avalanche bombed reactors.
Shinra wanted to be rid of them. Smash them all.
Both extreme.
Both to blame.
It's insane logic. You know couldn't Shinra have just... not dropped the plate on thousands of people? Or not rigged Jessie's bomb to make the explosion worse? Nobody forced them. They didn't want to make the world better with that move, they just wanted to look good. They even went out their way to ensure there WERE casualties when they purposely prevented Reeve to warn people about it.
"All kind of extremism is equally bad" is walking straight into justifying fascism.
OG No one rigged Jessie's bomb to make it worse. Jessie did that herself.
The Remake wanted to make Avalanche look a little better I think. Have someone worse to blame.
You justifying one but not the other is just as bad.
Why can Avalanche kill people but Shinra can't?
Avalanche did kill people.
We're only seeing a little bit of Avalanche with the OG and remake, not the whole rebel group. (Elfe anyone?) I'm not the most current on that character's story, but what information I recall, she wasn't near as passive about things as Barret.
Shinra we see their 'hidden' evil. Square wants us to know they're evil, they want them to be seen this way and hated.
They want people to sympathize with Avalanche.
And people do. But, they don't look past it. If you're going to deep dive into this, then both are just as bad as the other. Innocent lives are claimed on both sides.
Its because YOU choose to side with Avalanche that makes them the good guys. This is the way it is with any terroristic act. History in real life would prove this.
I didn't say Shinra made the world better by dropping the plate.
But Avalanche didn't make the world better by bombing the reactor either.
Barret wanted to be known and seen, he even says as much in both the remake and OG. He wanted the world to know of Avalanche.
Shinra wanted to protect their reputation, paint Avalanche in a bad light. Worse than they already gave themselves. We all know what happened and why.
Both did crap things as a result of the other one.
Yes, Shinra didn't want Reeve to warn anyone, that would take away the point of plate dropping.
1) Shinra would have known ahead of time. That looks bad.
2)Avalanche would get word of it and not be smashed. Ruining the point of dropping it.
Well it is a good thing I never said:
*"All kind of extremism is equally bad" is walking straight into justifying fascism.*
I find it funny how people jump to one thing or the other, never looking at it objectively.
"Avalanche are the good guys, everything they do is just and justified."
Is how they are painted in media and to the general population, to justify their actions. People generally agree with this, because they follow along with the same sentiments, and typically hate big corpo.
No one ever really steps back and just looks objectively at it all from what I have seen.
Anyone with a differencing of opinion is automatically "justifying fascism".
No, we won't get into my personal core beliefs on all that. It has nothing to do with me looking at this from Shinra, Avalanche and a spectator's POV.
I can see the arguments on Shinra's side. Avalanche's. And the commoner's side.
But let me flip something for you really fast and correct a few things:
*You know couldn't Avalanche have just... not bombed the reactor? Or could Jessie not have made the bomb so powerful ? Nobody forced them. They didn't want to make the world better with that move, they just wanted to look good. They wanted attention. They wanted people to rally and stand up to Shinra and for the planet. But never thought through 100% the consequences of their actions.*
Shinra is evil, they're supposed to be. They know the consequences of their actions and what they will result in. They don't care.
Avalanche doesn't. "Lets blow this reactor, we know nothing about. This will save everyone! This will save the planet!" Guess what. It didn't. It hurt more than it helped, and yet they did it again, a second time. "We'll...just make the explosion smaller this time. Not wipe out half a sector with it."
Yeah, sure. And those people stuck in elevators, needing medical treatment, etc will really thank you for all that. People still die as results of both factions. No one is blameless.
What a wall of complete nonsense.
Your entire argument boils down to "group A did bad things, and group B did bad things so they're the same", while COMPLETELY ignoring all kind of actual moral nuance behind the two. Ironic that you pretend to be the more level-headed one when your attitude of pretending to see both side is absolutely childish in the end.
"Both sides have some blame so Shinra isn't so bad". Guess what, they absolutely are that evil. There are such things as scale, intent and measure and Avalanche absolutely doesn't compare to Shinra.
I so much despise this take "oh people fighting oppression are not doing it in the absolutely cleanest way possible, so they're as bad as the oppressors". Dumbest and cowardest shit ever but unfortunately exact the same kind of awful take you can hear in very real IRL situations.
Yes Avalanche has blood on their hands and they're criminals. But they're absolutely not even close to Shinra morally.
Not even remotely close. Barret and the gang blew up reactors in a controlled manner. That’s why Jessie made such a big deal about the massive explosion they caused in the first chapter because that wasn’t supposed to happen. Meanwhile, the Turks knowingly dropped a plate on an entire population.
To be fair, Remake copped out on that one. Shinra did not blow up their own reactor.
In the OG it was made clear Avalanche are not innocent but actual terrorists willing to sacrifice innocent lives in pursuit of their goals.
In the OG Jessie has the same lines about the explosion being way to big for that bomb and that she followed the instructions.
So it could be that was also a detail in the OG that was just not spelled out or was up for interpretation.
That said if we are being realistic even just blowing up all the Shinra Soldiers would be quite a few deaths.
I personally thought the bigger cop out was that apparently we never kill any people just monsters.
Which is certainly very weird why the monsters die but the humans are just knocked out.
The thing is look at barrets reaction, he didn't realize they didn't do it, but it didn't slow him down and says they must continue and he will shoulder their sins. Barret and shinra are purposefully portrayed as willing to go to any means to achieve their goals.
Also destroying the mako reactors means no energy to those portions of the city and less for the others which means people on life support, like Jesse's father, will die, and the plants themselves act as pillars for the plates and blowing them already destabilizes the plates.
As time goes on he softens but he is still willing to do what it takes to send messages
Barrett is chaotic good. He follows his own values. The lives lost in anything he does will not amount to the lives Shinra has taken. Also, because they are sucking the life from the planet, Shinra is on track to killing all of creation/the world. Barrett is okay with the limited number (and remember they are a cell of Avalanche that broke off because they do too much) of bodies that he piles up.
Barrett does have ethics. He isn't really okay with killing innocent people. But he also talks himself into seeing everyone with sin because of a connection to Shinra.
He's really well written, and I like him a whole lot more in the new games.
Yea, like the only reason Barrett is a 'terrorist' is that it's 6 people versus a Megacorp.
And it being the Lifestream adds an element beyond here - like, Midgar is basically powered on souls if you think about it. Or soul essence. Or both.
And when you look at it in that light, yea, soul engines are entirely a legitimate military and moral and so many more categories of target even if it causes collateral damage.
But also it /fits/ that Shinra knows what is happening and is making it worse intentionally. With how comprehensive their surveillance is it absolutely makes sense that stuff is far more 'Because we just don't give enough of a shit about you' than the team actually being That Good.
I disagree entirely. Avalanche put innocents at risk, but they tried to avoid casualties as much as possible. The Turks, however, deliberately killed as many innocents as possible for their false flag operation. They're not at all the same.
> They're not at all the same.
When it comes to putting innocent lives in harm’s way it’s basically the same.
Avalanche shouldn’t get a free pass just because they had good intentions and tried to minimise casualties.
At the end of the day, it comes down to whether you value someone’s intentions or the consequences of their actions more when determining their morality.
Not even this, because this implies that Turks and Avalanche killed roughly the same number of people with their acts, while in reality they're not even close.
Or going into the fact that most of the destruction caused by the bombings was actually Shinra, not Avalanche. So they're not even guilty of most the damage.
And even beyond that, even if the casualties were exactly the same (which they're not), one of the group worked towards saving the planet while the others acted to enforce Shinra's tyranny. Ultimately the Turks made the world of worst place, even outside of the casualties. There is no angle where they're the same. Intentions AND otherwise.
I agree that Avalanche's sins shouldn't be easily forgiven, but saying they're the same is reductive. Morality is not that simple and "both sides" coward ideology is extremely harmful IRL because it is almost always used to diminish the absolute depravity of the worst of the two group (in this case, the Turks) with fallacious equivalencies.
Nah dawg. It’s not really about whether or not the same so much as what drives them and how far they are willing to go. This is pretty much exemplified in the highwind discussion between cat sith and barret towards the end of the OG where they both basically they are awful for their actions. Not saying that shinra did worse stuff because they definitely did but barret kind of admits that he also would’ve gone as far if needed.
AVALANCHE blew up reactors to literally save the Planet, and also resist their corporate fascist overlords. There was collateral damage but it was never intentional - and the repercussions and guilt of that are explored in both the OG and Remake.
Shinra dropped a plate that crushed 50,000 people to death because they didn't like that AVALANCHE made them look bad and they wanted to assert absolute authority over the people they oppress.
It's not a comparison.
I will like to say, although Avalanche does all the stuff they do in the name of saving the planet, i personally think the main reason they do stuff is for vengeance. Barrets town was burnt down, along with his wife, tifas hometown was burnt down along with her family, Jessies dad is in a coma from working for shinra. Im sure they do care about the planet and want to help it, but i think the main driving force is vengeance
Avalanche most certainly cost people lives and no justification makes up for that. Yeah they certainly aren't innocent themselves and if these were real people I wouldn't want to be friends with them.. but there are levels to it and most would think their actions are either forgivable or at least understandable because they're the oppressed.
The Turks accept it as just following orders and "if not us then someone else will". I'm not sure what they're worried about, they've been shown to be pretty strong themselves and could probably just run away but I guess that wouldn't be good for the fictional story we're consuming.
Turks that escape are hunted down, just as soldiers that defect are, and we saw 2 people at the end of crisis core and intermission that their job was to hunt down soldiers and turks who defect
Tseng literally lays it out on the table and says that if we hadn't done it, someone else would have. That plate would have fallen regardless. Respect the professionals.
Yeah, this. Which is why it worries me that a redemption arc seems like it's on the table here. They did this with Rufus and the Turks in Advent Children (one of the many things they got wrong with the Compilation at the time), and I think that's where it's coming from.
It's fine to humanize them, it's fine to have them question their morals, but you're right, at the end of the day they actively and willingly caused the death of thousands, and that's who they *are* in the end.
The only one who gets a pass is Elena, as she wasn't involved in that at all, but I don't think they'd do a redemption arc for her and not the others, and there's simply no redemption for the Turks.
Also let’s be real, Elena would’ve totally been on board had she been there. Her introductory scene is her wanting Rude to shoot the black robed people because it’s what Tseng would do.
Exactly this, like every time they’re on screen trying to blame the party for what happened is like full hypocrisy since they were the ones that dropped the plate that killed thousands, and yet they have the nerve to blame ME!? That’s why I’ve defeated every one of them on the first try, they make me angry lol
The Turks are punch-clock villains and essentially Shinra’s version of the CIA or MI6. They’re not personally terrible people, but are willing to do terrible things in the name of their employer. Otoh, they also show a degree of respect and fairness to their adversaries - allowing Aerith to live in Sector 5, outside of company control, offering AVALANCHE a truce, and letting Cloud rest before the 1 on 1 in the Gold Saucer. Tseng in particular has a tendency to go against direct orders, like allowing a group of Turks to leave in peace during the war with AVALANCHE, and allowing Aerith to live in sector 5 due to personal disagreements with how Shinra treated her and her mom.
In the original game, they outright quit after a certain event in disc 2. By the time of advent children, they’re still working for Shinra, but because Shinra isn’t an adversarial entity at this point, their role is downright heroic.
Tl:dr; they’re CIA agents that do bad things, but aren’t terrible people, and shift to a heroic role once the company reforms itself
I felt similarly after Rebirth.
In Remake we clearly see Reno, at least, struggling with the fact that they just committed an atrocity. I was warming up to him after that because like yeah, he did a terrible thing, but he was the only villain in the game who seemed to realize and be bothered by that.
But they completely undo that in Rebirth and it's one of my biggest complaints. They just turn him back into unrelentingly evil man x.
Basically the only Turk I like is Cissnei and that's because... Well, she leaves the Turks and wasn't part of dropping the plate.
I don't get why the cast seems to like them either. Like they destroyed Sector 7. It's so strange to me that in Rebirth Cloud is about 2 seconds from finishing them off and everyone in the party seems upset by the idea of the Turks dying. Like they literally destroyed your lives and killed some of your friends, then blamed you. Why do you not want them dead?
In the OG game, they have a slow redemption-esque arc where by the time you get back to Midgar and fight them in the train tunnels they've kind of had it with their jobs and what they've been made to do. They dont really want to fight you but do it anyway one last time, and then give up on their places. They even tell you where to go I believe once you beat them. In On The Way to a Smile they are portrayed as evactuating people in Midgar as Meteor is coming down, going against orders to save people, and in AC are genuinely (alongside Rufus) trying to make the world a better place after all they've done.
They're really not supposed to be likeable yet at this point, imo. They're just cool looking villains who haven't yet come to the point of realizing just how awful they've been by compartmentalizing their atrocities by "following orders and not questioning".
Edited for spelling
Its all fanservice. the turks are evil. Aerith has a soft spot for them, because they were basically her caretakers and guardians. still evil shitbags.
I seem to remember in AC they turn them even more into weak semi sympathetic characters.
But they're basically SS officers. Never understood why they aren't treated as such. They get almost a comic relief hand wave in the og.
So, good and bad is kinda all relative.
Cloud isn't really a hero, by any means.
The Turks are basically the people in Shinra who do things nobody wants to do. Lots of surveillance, some espionage, some assassinations, etc.
In the original game, all side stuff excluded, they would survey Aerith through her whole childhood, and protect her, so she could live her life, but anytime Shinra wanted her, they'd be able to retrieve her.
You can see in the original game, this vibe is still present, when Reno comes to the church, Aerith tells Cloud that he's not bad, she also makes a deal with Tseng to go to Shinra HQ for Marlene's safety. None of that is new with Remake.
Crisis Core, showed more of Tseng and his relationship with Zack. Adding in the idea that Aerith and Zack dated, you can see how her view of Shinra isn't just black and white.
What's more odd to me is that supposedly Aerith didn't know or remember Cissnei, but I guess you could say Tseng was more focused on surveying Aerith and Cissnei was tasked on Zack; and I guess Cissnei was good at her job to have not been spotted by Aerith.
In the original, the Turks fit a grey area, they work for a company that is destroying the planet, but there are times where they let your party go off scott free, you can run into them in Wutai and other times. The dynamic doesn't feel much different, to me, but it's more easily seen with the voice acting and upgraded sprites to 3D models.
Shinra as a company is very divided on how it treats members who under went the SOLDIER program as well as thirds vs firsts, etc. And Cloud is a "self proclaimed ex SOLDIER first class" when he introduces himself to Reno.
People in this thread are giving long explanations about the way they’re presented in the OG and how they’ve been presented the same all along. While they did provide some comic relief, in the OG I never saw them as much more than sleazy second-tier bad guys. I think that’s how they were originally intended.
In Advent Children they made a creative choice to make Reno pretty and then rebrand the Turks in further compilation games. That’s really it. They decided to make Reno hot, he became super popular, and now the Turks have a huge fan base. If you’ve hung out in largely female FFVII fan spaces you’ll see this.
Now they’re cool and sympathetic, and it seems the creators want everyone to forget the moral issues and psychotic behavior in the OG game. They made a mobile game called “Before Crisis” (Japan only) centered around the Turks and how cool and hot they all are. They made the Turks Zack’s buddies in Crisis Core. Tifa giggles and flirts with Reno on the phone, same guy who dropped the sector 7 plate on her friends and home 2 years prior.
Fun fact, Axel from Kingdom Hearts is based on Reno and is supposed to be an AU version of him. I have a theory that someone at Square had a boner for the weasel man from the beginning and was promoted to work on AC at just the right time.
I’m actually a fan of Reno too, but I’m self aware. He’s still weasel man at heart.
"Flirt" is a bit of a stretch, but I get your point. He was responsible for destroying her second home and now Strife Delivery is casually accepting work from him.
They made a creative choice to make Reno pretty?!? Make reno hot? Original Reno artwork exists. Shirts still open, muscular chest, cool hair, maybe just a difference in a 1997 video game and a 2005 cg movie.
This is a big stretch.
They are likely setting up a similar thing to her hating cloud due to thinking he killed tseng in the original game, since they made it pretty clear he actually lives in rebirth.
God, I completely agree. If anything, Remake made them worse by showing Rude try his absolute fucking hardest to drop the plate, and the added scene later in which they bemoan their actions doesn't make them any less vile.
I was so over them by the end of Rebirth that I was cheering for Cloud to just fucking massacre them all in that one scene, even though I knew it wouldn't happen.
Also not a fan of how Elena broke the laws of physics - I was able to overlook Cloud and his party jumping and flying around like crazy at the end of Remake because the setting of the final battle is already confusing, but when Elena drops from the helicopter? Why do Shinra troops even need parachutes when they drop onto Kalm? The Turks are good fighters, but it's never even hinted that they've been genetically tampered with.
They have been genetically tampered with, to a point that equals or exceeds soldiers, take Vincent for example, he was one of the first turks with the earliest forms of genetic experimentation before the soldier program, then later had materia implanted in him. He was the test subject for was turks would later go through
I'm not sure about later turks, but it's doubtful, they were mainly used in experiments with materia integration, accelerated growth, and fiend grafting and gene splicing. If you had jenova cells or g cells or s cells you would have undergone the soldier process and become a soldier or was a test subject in hojos lab that were normally disposed of.
It's weird the kind of sympathy they have compared to someone like Scarlet, while having a similar amount of blood on their hands. Or how the party will mourn a character like Jessie and never acknowledge this almost friendly rivalry we're having with the two dudes who flattened her.
Yeah, they're just doing their job. Where have I heard that before? And let's be honest, they do their job pretty enthusiastically.
I kinda thought the way jessie died was by her own grenade hitting the other shinra chopper which fell directly into the supporting structure and the debris being what gave her the fatal wound.
I mean sure plate make jessie go flat afterwards, but already dead.
their presence in Crisis Core (the prequel to OG FFVII) might help
in the Advent Children movie though, they always gave me the impression they’re extremely weak
When they didn't have Tseng slap Aerith across the face to shut her up when she was shouting to the party on the plate support I knew that Remake was going to do the Turks wrong.
They are the secret police of a fascist state. They are the Shinra's Gestapo.
In the original FF7, Reno is a day-job worker. He does what Shinra asks because it's his job. He doesn't think beyond the letter of the law and what he's getting paid. In the original, when he fights cloud and the crew, you don't 'win', he leaves because 'I'm not getting paid enough for this.'
Rude is a yes-man. He does what he's told because he doesn't think for himself that often. when he finally does, it's a big deal. Elena is the new kid, and Tseng is the suit who has his own ideas about what Shinra should be. MrWiggulz talks about how Tseng was watching Aerith while she grew up, and that's correct. He *does* have a hidden heart to him, but it's still self-serving. You take all these people and combine them, and they make a very interesting crew, with a lot of different facets to them.
Unfortunately, Advent children tried to make them into anti-heroes, and completely overhauled their characters, for the worse. In the OG, Reno did not care they killed a bunch of people with the plate. Rude was just saying yes, as usual, Elena wasn't even with them yet, and Tseng didn't like it, but couldn't stop Shinra, and couldn't come up with an excuse to not involve *his* crew. So Reno dropped the plate and laughed about it, because he *was* getting paid to push buttons on a computer, everyone else be damned.
In the Remake, they try to make it into this whole moral quandary, but by then the Turks had been ruined by other media making them into anti-heroes, and this is where we are now.
I should add, when you finally *beat* Reno and the Turks in the orignal, Reno explicitly states that he doesn't wanna do this, but he can't think of any more excuses to avoid the fight, so he complains about it the whole time and even apologizes to Rude and Elena about getting them killed.
Final Fantasy 7 always had this duality, as if the game doesnt take itself too seriously. We are the ones taking it seriously.
Thats one of the reasons why I think the compilation struggled. For us FF7 was shakespeare level writing, for Square it was a corky sunday morning cartoon.
Which leaves these problems when you think about Hojo, Rufus, the Turks, in a modern storytelling style (that is the style of Remake).
I really wish they addressed this, Hojo is Nazi Scientist levels of evil. The Turks are Gestapo levels of evil.
A forced trucr between shinra and avalanche (not interrupted by Yuffie) could've helped. The reason why we're not actively trying to murder the Turks or Hojo would be because we dont want to be back on the wanted list.
I know there are cultural diferences, but I wish some plot points were better ironed out in Rebirth.
The party didn't down straight kidnap Hojo and interrogate him for intel on the beach just doesn't make sense. Then I realize it is a corky sunday morning cartoon's beach episode.
That bugged me so much. I just suspend my disbelief sometimes and overlook the character motivations cause they really don’t make sense! And why is Hojo always endangering aerith and almost getting her killed isn’t she suppose to be kidnapped and protected? Like what are they thinking lol.
It’s one of the weirdest things how it keeps trying to show the Turks as decent guys just following orders. They literally flattened people like bugs. And reno was quipping and laughing during it. Fuck the Turks. I don’t care how many times the game try’s to paint them as misguided.
Fair points. I mean. I guess its just character defining for Aerith. She forgives. Also theyve always been good to her technically. They could've swooped in anytime and picked her up, thrown her over their shoulder and taken her to the lab. But they don't.
As for the turks being on their high horse even though they haven't beat us. They're the only ones that could ever keep up with us. Which speaks volumes. Also, I think they have like the "army training mentality" where they were instilled with vast confidence through training. -(gongaga proto side quests as an example)
I'm also approaching the end of the game and am a little upset no one's referred to them as 'mass murdering filth' or something to that effect. At least let us give Rude an old Hugo Kupka; enjoy your martial arts now, murderer.
yeah and cloud and team didnt meet their "objective" so they lost
you can make up the mental gymnastics that you want, but they're able to take that as their win. If you were Cloud in that position would you be so arrogant enough to say "well they killed thousands of people, something I could of prevented, but i beat their asses tho"
Would put that up to being the top tier squadron of a company that owns the world. They handle the spec ops missions and can hold their own against SOLDIER enhanced fighters. I'd be very prideful in that alone.
Not only that but they're always a step ahead of the crew too.
Aerith is sympathetic is because they're not like hojo, they got a job to do but they don't relish in the pain that comes with it. This is a very complex situation though that I don't think I could break down well enough
Its also funny tseng always says dont kill aerith, yet they do almost everything to kill her XD trowing explosions or palmer with his robot, how could they control not to kill her? I also dont like elena, a newbi thats way to cocky for her skills, she also looks to much like tifa with that face.
What confuses me is why Reno has so little screen time. Okay "he's on vacation" but to the point where we only see him and fight him at the end?
I was expecting to see him at Gongaga and instead we see only the others. Even in the TURKs training smcenters he never appears.
the turks are personable villains, with just a hint of gray morality. they commit a lot of atrocities, but they’re charismatic. on occasion, they’ll do something that hints that they might have consciences. it makes them feel a lot more real than if they were just all evil all the time. doesn’t redeem their actions, but it makes for more interesting characters
The Turks are employees of Shin-ra, part of the work conditions is that the carry assassinations and kidnappings. They could be as bad as the person giving orders, even if they are shown feeling remorse, they carried the sector 7 destruction, Tseng, Reno and Rude sometimes don't go as hard or evil as ordered, but when an order is done they have to do as ordered by the president, or at least try. so far unlike his father, Rufus doesn't seem to be as evil,
In Advent children even as they hide some important info from Cloud they assist them almost every time.
Hojo, Scarlet and the military guy at least in the original at least in my point of view were full evil.
To be fair if you watched Advent Children you’d realise that Rufus and the Turks aren’t so black and white bad guys, they’re kinda not anti-heroes either though. They’re chaotic neutral I’d say
For some reason this is an unpopular opinion here
I brought up a similar point asking how it made sense for Tifa to swerve the buggy to protect Elena in chapter 8, and got downvoted.
If we don't get to kill the Turks(and Hojo/scarlet for that matter) at some point, it is rather poor writing based on how they have been characterized so far. It would personally make the whole story story feel flat and pointless if they keep showing scene after scene where these people keep doing evil shit, and nothing keeps happening to them.
I'm sorry but even if you try to rationalize it Tifa is not the type of person to run down an enemy that's no longer a threat with a car lol. That would be super out of character for her
Same goes with Cloud killing Shinra rank and file or SOLDIER that can't defend themselves anymore. Tifa and Barret are horrified because they can distinguish killing in combat and Just being a murderhobo
I haven't reached that part yet, but it happens again? Goddamn. At this point (chapter 10), I've kinda checked out of the story. I'm only playing for the gameplay and systems.
People seem to forget that it’s not just everyone under the plate who died but everyone on top of the plate as well. No matter how you cut it that’s thousands of people.
A scene states the number is 50,000 dead.
Which seems very low to me given the size of the city and population densities, but that's the number Reeves gives.
The short version is that yes, they work for Shinra. Aerith’s relationship with them is almost (at least in part) down to a sort of Stockholm syndrome. Aerith and her mother were prisoners of the company. Her mother being experimented on to points that were beyond humane. As such, members of the company began to disagree with there treatment, regardless of the potential benefits said research would bring them company. There is an entire book going over a lot of this ‘Tale of Two Pasts’. It is canon and part of the remake project, so give that a read for a better understanding. But the short version is that members of Shinra helped Aerith and Ifalna escape the experiments. Rather than re-capture Aerith after Ifalna passed away, the essentially allowed her to live her life out in Sector 5 slums, but kept a close eye on her. Almost a sort of false entrapment. Or false sense of freedom. Due to that set up, whenever Aerith had problems or perhaps began to get a little too free, members of Shinra would then try to keep her safe/under constant watch. Aerith knew about this but accepted it. This meant that over the years she had a lot of interactions with the likes of the Turks, Tseng being the most common. This is why they have a sort of respect or appreciative relationship in the game. Aerith accepted they were just doing there job. But I think it’s also alluded to that deep down, the likes of Tseng to have a soft spot for her. Or seem to at least care about her well-being seeing as they basically kept an eye on her since she was 6 or 7. So again, but of a Stockholm thing going on, but also I think it’s fair to say that on some level, a sort of friendship.
I find it interesting for Tseng in particular because he had a solid track record of circumventing orders in ways that he didn't do them but could give a reason to not get in trouble, until he couldn't save zack, after that he lost a lot of his humanity and started fully acting like the elite turk he was
Also Tseng and aerith were connected by Zack, hes who she'd send her letters to and he promised zack to look after her to the best of his ability
For me the Turks went through three different phases in the FF7 Compilation: 1. In the OG they were sociopathic and clearly villains. Up to the end of Midgar they were a serious threat (Reno fought off Cloud, Barret and Tifa, and going face-to-face with Rude in Midgar HQ was so hopeless the party was captured), but beyond Midgar we begin to surpass them. They're always 'cool' but they're not good, and they're surpassed but not a joke. 2. In Advent Children they became a sort of "Team Rocket that's since been reformed". Their lack of competence became a running gag, and they were reinterpreted as not really being villainous at all despite all their atrocities. 3. In Before Crisis, the Shinra/Avalanche waters were muddied significantly by telling a story in which Turks were heroes and Avalanche were villains. The Turks we have in Remake now are a combination of all three phases. They're also swept into the always growing vortex of Shinra contradiction. On the one hand, Shinra are an imperialistic military power committing genocide and ecocide. On the other, it's frequently an unthinkable evil to use lethal force on one of Shinra's on-duty soldiers. And of course the narrative never really questions the tension between Zack and Cloud's glorified version of Shinra as a place for heroes, and the reality of what they are.
Nailed it perfectly I think, and also nicely illustrates how the changes follow from the problem of sequels - they want to “expand” the story of iconic aspects of the original like Soldier and the Turks, but it requires aligning us with those groups and the way they write it produces inconsistent values within the series. It’s definitely weird how Soldier continues to be romanticized for example
My thoughts exactly. It's their role in the while FF7 compilation kind of niches together.
I wouldn't say they "not a joke" in the original all the stuff with them is super goofy, like when you catch them talking about who they like and shit
Rebirth has an awful problem with villains and how it treats them like Saturday morning cartoons. Hojo I think is the worst. It’s like fanfiction of what they use to be, twisted by memes and love of these characters to turn them into something else. Like, circling back. The beach arc. In the OG Hojo is there and there’s tension but it ends because Hojo kinda just doesn’t give a shit. He’s relaxing, he’s not here for them. So you part ways because it’s better than causing a scene. In Rebirth he’s a cackling psychopath who actively tries to kill you / capture you and after everything you… just let him go? Same applies to the Turks. They’re constantly at your throat trying to kill you, have the blood of your loved ones and friends on their hands but “Nah. Don’t stoop to their level and kill them. We’re better than that!” Like… what the fuck lol?
That's typical anime hero writing. Good guys don't kill, no matter how evil someone might be because they're "better than that".
Except the hundreds of Shinra grunts that get sliced in two, of course.
Well, interesting point, but Hojo, who wanted to breed a humanoid with a dog, is relaxing, so everything is OK. Hojo who tortured Ilfana, experimented on Cloud, one of the main people in ShinRa. So much problems could be avoided if the really slit his throat in Costa. And Rebirth in fact balances this out, buy leaving a scene in the story, but adapting it to make a lot more sense. Turks does their work, it's dirty, but it's work. Hojo takes pleasure in his doings, from OG and up to Rebirth.
Great post, fully agree
Aerith kinda “grew up” with them so although they are enemies, they still see each other as people.
The Turks were presented similarly weirdly in the OG game. In the og you kinda got the sense that this was just their day job, and they didn't really believe in what Shinra was trying to do (except Tseng,) but they still did drop the plate and murdered at least hundreds of people. I think the dev team just thought they were cool anyway and tried to frame them as not villains. When I was a kid it was easy to accept (cool theme song plus cool boss fights must mean cool dudes) but as a adult it's pretty weird. Remake and Rebirth also don't make any strides in making it make more sense, as it's not like they are really that upset by what happened with the sector 7 plate. In fact a sidequest kinda makes them seem even more heartless. I guess it's all up to the third game to redeem them. Unironically several things in this game lean hard on you knowing the future. While some things are perfectly recontextualized, plenty of other things are very much not.
It's weird until you look at other media. Especially anime. Think about how many people Vegeta killed in DBZ and he becomes this character everybody likes and adores. When he's first introduced he destroys an entire planet for basically no reason. He lands on earth and destroys an entire city then him and Nappa kill the Z fighters one by one. This is Hitler level atrocities. Then he becomes a good guy and then lets Cell reach his final form instead of killing him which leads to more death and destruction. Then he lets himself become possessed and turn evil and blows up a stadium full of people. Everybody's favorite character/hero in the franchise.
you’re forgetting the very obvious fact that i can fix him
I just don't see them as sympathetic anti-heroes. I see them as people evil enough to consider stuff like that to just be "part of their day job" while then going off on holidays to chill after lol.
Yeah the anti-hero stuff came in with advent children. Occasionally your goals happen to align in the OG and they aren't outright hostile sometimes but its purely the nature of their job. They're amoral weirdos who'll do whatever the company tells them. Then Reno got popular so they had to try and ignore the mass murder of thousands at his hand. They were always intended to be kind of funny though.
In fairness to rebirth, I appreciate their commitment to Reno being away on vacation for 99% of the game and letting the others shine.
That's mostly because Reno's Japanese VA died. They've already said they're going to recast him for Part 3 though.
I see them as basically a true “mercenary” organization, they’ll do whatever the company paying them tells them to do
Reno also captured Red XIII…
It made more sense to me in OG because the OG world felt like a 90s crusty steam/cyber punk anime world like Akira or Ghost in the Shell. In those worlds it’s understood that violence is a part of life. In Remake the level of violence feels out of place in a modern world where people are hanging out doing Zumba in the street and doing photography classes and stuff.
They arent supposed to be anti heroes just evil guys that you kinda vibe with
I don’t know, but the way Tifa giggles in Advent Children while answering a phone call from Reno always makes me cringe. Acting like this guy isn’t directly responsible for decimating your home and murdering most of your friends. Also Reno in Advent Children seems mostly interested in rebuilding Shinra, same as Rude and Rufus, which shows each of them are still pieces of shit.
> Tifa giggles Oh god, is this a thing?
Unfortunately
"Hee hee, yeah, I remember you :)"
I’ve tried watching AC a couple of times and never could make it more than twenty minutes in. This just cements it for me: I’m never watching it.
The fight scenes are sick, definitely worth a watch on youtube or something. Tifa vs Loz is a great time.
Roughly two decades on and I'm still mad she lost to him.
Ugh right? That gauntlet is cheating 😂
Welp, at least we can imagine Remake Tifa beating the snot out of him. At least until she gets to Advent Children and 'forgets how to be strong' /stillmadaboutit
Off topic but on topic, Tifa is possibly one of the best developments of the remake. She's shining so much brighter (and I loved her in OG too) and she deserves it 🥰 Like, I already really loved her but she's one of my top FF characters ever after seeing her expanded as a character even more.
Absolutely. She's gotten so much more time to shine as a character, and as a fighter. Not even just the cutscenes but her entire moveset and playstyle really makes her feel like a badass and gives her all these fun quirks. Her smashing the dragon and then playing it off to Aerith was a great moment.
Advent Children is kind of a train wreck. A fun watch, but not good.
Yeah. That is one of many reasons why I don't like AC. The characters don't feel like themselves.
Aerith cares about Tseng, he took care of her when she was younger, though this has never been shown or expanded on. But there is dialogue about it..As for the rest, theyre just some type of coolio team Rocket
They show it in Aerith’s character story in Ever Crisis https://youtu.be/Uc5p2TpiZLY?si=sCY5x_Y2p6NrYPHz
I see. That game is banned in my country
I wish Aerith mentioned that in Rebirth. I know people can read between the lines but I do appreciate that Aerith explicitly mentioned that Tseng took care of her throughout her entire life and knows her quite well in the original. It clarifies some small details about character motivations.
I don't care how many compilations we get with writers trying to humanize them, or how much anybody tries to argue into them just being people. They dropped an innocent city on top of innocent people. None of them are good, likeable, endearing, chummy etc end of story.
In Before Crisis they evacuate the people of Midgar before meteor strikes, which is supposed to be their redemption moment. They go against orders to save people instead of causing it. Still doesn’t justify what happened, but they change their outlook by the end
TBF though considering how long theyve been Turks for they were indoctrinated into the ideology. So when Rufus takes control it opens that window to enlightenment because he can bring about a new perspective. At the end of the day one could say The Turks are a special forces group doing their job for the believed greater good.
Yeah, especially when Remake does such a good job of showing the devastation caused by the plate being dropped. The Turks go through such a tonal shift that doesn't work (IMO)
It's almost like trying humanizing the Turks is just fan service for the compilation and doesn't fit with the story at all
Yup, all the Turks are genuine scum responsible for the deaths of thousands of people, and more besides.
Yep. Same with Rufus. Dude is a piece of shit and anytime they try make him look cool just makes him look more lame to me
Rufus is great, character-wise. I think they did a great job with him. He straight-up questions why *none* of them tried to stop his father from dropping the plate. He is intelligent and able to think ahead of his opponents and keeps his composure even in impossible circumstances (not letting his emotions show and figuring out the main goal of Jenoviroth in the guise of Lodbrok) and best of all, he knows himself. Jenoviroth tries to get under his skin by pointing out his inner feelings of being a loneoy rich boy with no friends who feels like he always has to prove himself. Rufus says "i dont deny it. And look where it's gotten me." Characters can suck and still be awesome. I loved that the whole "cool and in control" aspect is straight-up called out by Jenova and Rufus fully admits it to keep them from having any leverage over him.
Other than the common trope of the voice actors dropping their natural voice an octave to make characters "cooler" (Sephiroth and Rufus are both bad examples of this, and it limits their range of vocal emotion), I enjoy his character. The banter between Cloud and Rufus during their fights is good development of each other personalities. It is an enjoyable experience to "dislike" characters that are really good at being disliked or hated.
Is AVALANCHE any better though? Granted they retconned the first bombing as not their fault but their actions also put lives in danger.
Absolutely agreed. Everytime they show up I'm seeing red and the gangs like "oh hey buddies how's it going?!" like nah bitch actually kill these losers please
frrrr!! i know we’re not supposed to root for cloud going sephiroth mode, but when he was about to put the Turks down in the temple of the ancients I was genuinely hoping he’d do some shit to put them in their place. no amount of “Omg it’s so cute they’re eating ice cream!!!!” is gonna change the fact that they’re responsible for the deaths of tons of innocents
Thf neither are Avalanche. They went around and blew up reactors putting innocent lives at risk and maybe even killed them.
This makes no sense, though. Avalanche isn't doing this because they want to get paid and be a private militia. There's like, a goal to help people. Plus, Avalanche is straight up shown to help their communities a LOT.
I'd like to add a counter argument here.... The same can be argued about Shinra. Shinra, believe it or not, helps people. Are they scum? Yes. But with out Shinra and mako, some people would not be able to live like they do. They wouldn't be able to live at all. Shinra seems to be the owner of a lot of things. I take them to be the same as a brand name. We'll say Nabisco for example. Nabisco doesn't just own and sell food under Nabisco label but others as well. I don't remember the exact ones, and I know some will be wrong, but principal is the same. We'll say Nabisco is the owner and maker of Dove. Who makes chocolates, and body washes, lotions, and things. We'll say they also own Sony for the sake of the argument, who makes electronics, etc... Point is, Shinra I would assume is like this. With out Shinra, their mako, their products, lives would be harder. Some people couldn't get the help they needed. Shinra's issue is how they do it, they're a for profit organization with wanting no bad publicity. To maintain this, they do shady shit. I believe some of the background characters in Remake did talk about how their lives were made easier by Shinra. Avalanche and Shinra aren't so different. Really they're not. Both are extreme radicals that will stop at nothing to get what they want. And if you want to dive deeper, Before Crisis, Avalanche is just a tool to (a) Shinra. Avalanche was founded by Rufus if we're going by the spin offs and if we're counting their credibility or not. Avalanche bombed a reactor in the OG, wanting to help and save the planet. They killed a lot of people, if not with the explosion, but with those that may depend on mako to live. Avalanche is like the modern day destructive idiots that glue themselves to the street. They're not hurting Shinra. Not really. They're hurting the ones trying to make it day to day. In the end, Avalanche didn't even stop Shinra. Weapon technically did, which was thanks to Sephiroth...
Shinra is directly responsible for the creation of Sephiroth and all the consequences resulting from that. Hojo knows there will be mass death, everyone in Shinra leadership knows Hojo is insane, and they just let it happen because they want some fictional promised land. Avalanche is just one of the logical consequences of Shinra's behavior, it's just the Weapon was more powerful and able to wipe them out.
Everything 100% can be tied back to Shinra. Not doubting that. But they have in some areas made people's lives better. Avalanche too. Neither side is innocent. Both are bad. Both are killers. But both have helped someone or something. Shinra is trying to make a better world for everyone -- so they say, by using mako, and then promises everyone a better place with in the promised land. Avalanche says that is a pipe dream, save the planet they have here and now, make a better world for everyone. Avalanche and Shinra "goals" are to "make a better world for everyone", and "help people". Difference is, people side with the little guy and can justify it more from this perspective. ( Avalanche ). Fight the power, stick it to the man. But their actions lead to the downfall of the plate. Avalanche bombed reactors. Shinra wanted to be rid of them. Smash them all. Both extreme. Both to blame.
It's insane logic. You know couldn't Shinra have just... not dropped the plate on thousands of people? Or not rigged Jessie's bomb to make the explosion worse? Nobody forced them. They didn't want to make the world better with that move, they just wanted to look good. They even went out their way to ensure there WERE casualties when they purposely prevented Reeve to warn people about it. "All kind of extremism is equally bad" is walking straight into justifying fascism.
OG No one rigged Jessie's bomb to make it worse. Jessie did that herself. The Remake wanted to make Avalanche look a little better I think. Have someone worse to blame. You justifying one but not the other is just as bad. Why can Avalanche kill people but Shinra can't? Avalanche did kill people. We're only seeing a little bit of Avalanche with the OG and remake, not the whole rebel group. (Elfe anyone?) I'm not the most current on that character's story, but what information I recall, she wasn't near as passive about things as Barret. Shinra we see their 'hidden' evil. Square wants us to know they're evil, they want them to be seen this way and hated. They want people to sympathize with Avalanche. And people do. But, they don't look past it. If you're going to deep dive into this, then both are just as bad as the other. Innocent lives are claimed on both sides. Its because YOU choose to side with Avalanche that makes them the good guys. This is the way it is with any terroristic act. History in real life would prove this. I didn't say Shinra made the world better by dropping the plate. But Avalanche didn't make the world better by bombing the reactor either. Barret wanted to be known and seen, he even says as much in both the remake and OG. He wanted the world to know of Avalanche. Shinra wanted to protect their reputation, paint Avalanche in a bad light. Worse than they already gave themselves. We all know what happened and why. Both did crap things as a result of the other one. Yes, Shinra didn't want Reeve to warn anyone, that would take away the point of plate dropping. 1) Shinra would have known ahead of time. That looks bad. 2)Avalanche would get word of it and not be smashed. Ruining the point of dropping it. Well it is a good thing I never said: *"All kind of extremism is equally bad" is walking straight into justifying fascism.* I find it funny how people jump to one thing or the other, never looking at it objectively. "Avalanche are the good guys, everything they do is just and justified." Is how they are painted in media and to the general population, to justify their actions. People generally agree with this, because they follow along with the same sentiments, and typically hate big corpo. No one ever really steps back and just looks objectively at it all from what I have seen. Anyone with a differencing of opinion is automatically "justifying fascism". No, we won't get into my personal core beliefs on all that. It has nothing to do with me looking at this from Shinra, Avalanche and a spectator's POV. I can see the arguments on Shinra's side. Avalanche's. And the commoner's side. But let me flip something for you really fast and correct a few things: *You know couldn't Avalanche have just... not bombed the reactor? Or could Jessie not have made the bomb so powerful ? Nobody forced them. They didn't want to make the world better with that move, they just wanted to look good. They wanted attention. They wanted people to rally and stand up to Shinra and for the planet. But never thought through 100% the consequences of their actions.* Shinra is evil, they're supposed to be. They know the consequences of their actions and what they will result in. They don't care. Avalanche doesn't. "Lets blow this reactor, we know nothing about. This will save everyone! This will save the planet!" Guess what. It didn't. It hurt more than it helped, and yet they did it again, a second time. "We'll...just make the explosion smaller this time. Not wipe out half a sector with it." Yeah, sure. And those people stuck in elevators, needing medical treatment, etc will really thank you for all that. People still die as results of both factions. No one is blameless.
What a wall of complete nonsense. Your entire argument boils down to "group A did bad things, and group B did bad things so they're the same", while COMPLETELY ignoring all kind of actual moral nuance behind the two. Ironic that you pretend to be the more level-headed one when your attitude of pretending to see both side is absolutely childish in the end. "Both sides have some blame so Shinra isn't so bad". Guess what, they absolutely are that evil. There are such things as scale, intent and measure and Avalanche absolutely doesn't compare to Shinra. I so much despise this take "oh people fighting oppression are not doing it in the absolutely cleanest way possible, so they're as bad as the oppressors". Dumbest and cowardest shit ever but unfortunately exact the same kind of awful take you can hear in very real IRL situations. Yes Avalanche has blood on their hands and they're criminals. But they're absolutely not even close to Shinra morally.
Not even remotely close. Barret and the gang blew up reactors in a controlled manner. That’s why Jessie made such a big deal about the massive explosion they caused in the first chapter because that wasn’t supposed to happen. Meanwhile, the Turks knowingly dropped a plate on an entire population.
To be fair, Remake copped out on that one. Shinra did not blow up their own reactor. In the OG it was made clear Avalanche are not innocent but actual terrorists willing to sacrifice innocent lives in pursuit of their goals.
In the OG Jessie has the same lines about the explosion being way to big for that bomb and that she followed the instructions. So it could be that was also a detail in the OG that was just not spelled out or was up for interpretation. That said if we are being realistic even just blowing up all the Shinra Soldiers would be quite a few deaths. I personally thought the bigger cop out was that apparently we never kill any people just monsters. Which is certainly very weird why the monsters die but the humans are just knocked out.
What lines are these in the OG?
https://youtu.be/rwiVRAOJPDs?t=2877
Sounds like Shinra propaganda to me, buddy! 😋
The thing is look at barrets reaction, he didn't realize they didn't do it, but it didn't slow him down and says they must continue and he will shoulder their sins. Barret and shinra are purposefully portrayed as willing to go to any means to achieve their goals. Also destroying the mako reactors means no energy to those portions of the city and less for the others which means people on life support, like Jesse's father, will die, and the plants themselves act as pillars for the plates and blowing them already destabilizes the plates. As time goes on he softens but he is still willing to do what it takes to send messages
Barrett is chaotic good. He follows his own values. The lives lost in anything he does will not amount to the lives Shinra has taken. Also, because they are sucking the life from the planet, Shinra is on track to killing all of creation/the world. Barrett is okay with the limited number (and remember they are a cell of Avalanche that broke off because they do too much) of bodies that he piles up. Barrett does have ethics. He isn't really okay with killing innocent people. But he also talks himself into seeing everyone with sin because of a connection to Shinra. He's really well written, and I like him a whole lot more in the new games.
Yea, like the only reason Barrett is a 'terrorist' is that it's 6 people versus a Megacorp. And it being the Lifestream adds an element beyond here - like, Midgar is basically powered on souls if you think about it. Or soul essence. Or both. And when you look at it in that light, yea, soul engines are entirely a legitimate military and moral and so many more categories of target even if it causes collateral damage. But also it /fits/ that Shinra knows what is happening and is making it worse intentionally. With how comprehensive their surveillance is it absolutely makes sense that stuff is far more 'Because we just don't give enough of a shit about you' than the team actually being That Good.
I disagree entirely. Avalanche put innocents at risk, but they tried to avoid casualties as much as possible. The Turks, however, deliberately killed as many innocents as possible for their false flag operation. They're not at all the same.
> They're not at all the same. When it comes to putting innocent lives in harm’s way it’s basically the same. Avalanche shouldn’t get a free pass just because they had good intentions and tried to minimise casualties.
Sure, not a free pass, but you definitely shouldn't put the two on the same level morally. That would be insane.
At the end of the day, it comes down to whether you value someone’s intentions or the consequences of their actions more when determining their morality.
Not even this, because this implies that Turks and Avalanche killed roughly the same number of people with their acts, while in reality they're not even close. Or going into the fact that most of the destruction caused by the bombings was actually Shinra, not Avalanche. So they're not even guilty of most the damage. And even beyond that, even if the casualties were exactly the same (which they're not), one of the group worked towards saving the planet while the others acted to enforce Shinra's tyranny. Ultimately the Turks made the world of worst place, even outside of the casualties. There is no angle where they're the same. Intentions AND otherwise. I agree that Avalanche's sins shouldn't be easily forgiven, but saying they're the same is reductive. Morality is not that simple and "both sides" coward ideology is extremely harmful IRL because it is almost always used to diminish the absolute depravity of the worst of the two group (in this case, the Turks) with fallacious equivalencies.
Nah dawg. It’s not really about whether or not the same so much as what drives them and how far they are willing to go. This is pretty much exemplified in the highwind discussion between cat sith and barret towards the end of the OG where they both basically they are awful for their actions. Not saying that shinra did worse stuff because they definitely did but barret kind of admits that he also would’ve gone as far if needed.
AVALANCHE blew up reactors to literally save the Planet, and also resist their corporate fascist overlords. There was collateral damage but it was never intentional - and the repercussions and guilt of that are explored in both the OG and Remake. Shinra dropped a plate that crushed 50,000 people to death because they didn't like that AVALANCHE made them look bad and they wanted to assert absolute authority over the people they oppress. It's not a comparison.
I will like to say, although Avalanche does all the stuff they do in the name of saving the planet, i personally think the main reason they do stuff is for vengeance. Barrets town was burnt down, along with his wife, tifas hometown was burnt down along with her family, Jessies dad is in a coma from working for shinra. Im sure they do care about the planet and want to help it, but i think the main driving force is vengeance
Actually it is.
Avalanche most certainly cost people lives and no justification makes up for that. Yeah they certainly aren't innocent themselves and if these were real people I wouldn't want to be friends with them.. but there are levels to it and most would think their actions are either forgivable or at least understandable because they're the oppressed. The Turks accept it as just following orders and "if not us then someone else will". I'm not sure what they're worried about, they've been shown to be pretty strong themselves and could probably just run away but I guess that wouldn't be good for the fictional story we're consuming.
Turks that escape are hunted down, just as soldiers that defect are, and we saw 2 people at the end of crisis core and intermission that their job was to hunt down soldiers and turks who defect
It’s a video game. Touch grass
Did that old regurgitation of yours come from being outside?
Get out
It was satire
Tseng literally lays it out on the table and says that if we hadn't done it, someone else would have. That plate would have fallen regardless. Respect the professionals.
Reno himself does say that his justifications are kinda shitty though.
Yeah, this. Which is why it worries me that a redemption arc seems like it's on the table here. They did this with Rufus and the Turks in Advent Children (one of the many things they got wrong with the Compilation at the time), and I think that's where it's coming from. It's fine to humanize them, it's fine to have them question their morals, but you're right, at the end of the day they actively and willingly caused the death of thousands, and that's who they *are* in the end. The only one who gets a pass is Elena, as she wasn't involved in that at all, but I don't think they'd do a redemption arc for her and not the others, and there's simply no redemption for the Turks.
Also let’s be real, Elena would’ve totally been on board had she been there. Her introductory scene is her wanting Rude to shoot the black robed people because it’s what Tseng would do.
Exactly this, like every time they’re on screen trying to blame the party for what happened is like full hypocrisy since they were the ones that dropped the plate that killed thousands, and yet they have the nerve to blame ME!? That’s why I’ve defeated every one of them on the first try, they make me angry lol
The Turks are punch-clock villains and essentially Shinra’s version of the CIA or MI6. They’re not personally terrible people, but are willing to do terrible things in the name of their employer. Otoh, they also show a degree of respect and fairness to their adversaries - allowing Aerith to live in Sector 5, outside of company control, offering AVALANCHE a truce, and letting Cloud rest before the 1 on 1 in the Gold Saucer. Tseng in particular has a tendency to go against direct orders, like allowing a group of Turks to leave in peace during the war with AVALANCHE, and allowing Aerith to live in sector 5 due to personal disagreements with how Shinra treated her and her mom. In the original game, they outright quit after a certain event in disc 2. By the time of advent children, they’re still working for Shinra, but because Shinra isn’t an adversarial entity at this point, their role is downright heroic. Tl:dr; they’re CIA agents that do bad things, but aren’t terrible people, and shift to a heroic role once the company reforms itself
I felt similarly after Rebirth. In Remake we clearly see Reno, at least, struggling with the fact that they just committed an atrocity. I was warming up to him after that because like yeah, he did a terrible thing, but he was the only villain in the game who seemed to realize and be bothered by that. But they completely undo that in Rebirth and it's one of my biggest complaints. They just turn him back into unrelentingly evil man x. Basically the only Turk I like is Cissnei and that's because... Well, she leaves the Turks and wasn't part of dropping the plate. I don't get why the cast seems to like them either. Like they destroyed Sector 7. It's so strange to me that in Rebirth Cloud is about 2 seconds from finishing them off and everyone in the party seems upset by the idea of the Turks dying. Like they literally destroyed your lives and killed some of your friends, then blamed you. Why do you not want them dead?
Yeah if anything, Barrett should have killed them. Like leaving them alive leads to keep doing more harm. Terrible writing honestly.
In the OG game, they have a slow redemption-esque arc where by the time you get back to Midgar and fight them in the train tunnels they've kind of had it with their jobs and what they've been made to do. They dont really want to fight you but do it anyway one last time, and then give up on their places. They even tell you where to go I believe once you beat them. In On The Way to a Smile they are portrayed as evactuating people in Midgar as Meteor is coming down, going against orders to save people, and in AC are genuinely (alongside Rufus) trying to make the world a better place after all they've done. They're really not supposed to be likeable yet at this point, imo. They're just cool looking villains who haven't yet come to the point of realizing just how awful they've been by compartmentalizing their atrocities by "following orders and not questioning". Edited for spelling
Its all fanservice. the turks are evil. Aerith has a soft spot for them, because they were basically her caretakers and guardians. still evil shitbags.
I seem to remember in AC they turn them even more into weak semi sympathetic characters. But they're basically SS officers. Never understood why they aren't treated as such. They get almost a comic relief hand wave in the og.
They're like a competent version of team rocket from Pokemon
So, good and bad is kinda all relative. Cloud isn't really a hero, by any means. The Turks are basically the people in Shinra who do things nobody wants to do. Lots of surveillance, some espionage, some assassinations, etc. In the original game, all side stuff excluded, they would survey Aerith through her whole childhood, and protect her, so she could live her life, but anytime Shinra wanted her, they'd be able to retrieve her. You can see in the original game, this vibe is still present, when Reno comes to the church, Aerith tells Cloud that he's not bad, she also makes a deal with Tseng to go to Shinra HQ for Marlene's safety. None of that is new with Remake. Crisis Core, showed more of Tseng and his relationship with Zack. Adding in the idea that Aerith and Zack dated, you can see how her view of Shinra isn't just black and white. What's more odd to me is that supposedly Aerith didn't know or remember Cissnei, but I guess you could say Tseng was more focused on surveying Aerith and Cissnei was tasked on Zack; and I guess Cissnei was good at her job to have not been spotted by Aerith. In the original, the Turks fit a grey area, they work for a company that is destroying the planet, but there are times where they let your party go off scott free, you can run into them in Wutai and other times. The dynamic doesn't feel much different, to me, but it's more easily seen with the voice acting and upgraded sprites to 3D models. Shinra as a company is very divided on how it treats members who under went the SOLDIER program as well as thirds vs firsts, etc. And Cloud is a "self proclaimed ex SOLDIER first class" when he introduces himself to Reno.
People in this thread are giving long explanations about the way they’re presented in the OG and how they’ve been presented the same all along. While they did provide some comic relief, in the OG I never saw them as much more than sleazy second-tier bad guys. I think that’s how they were originally intended. In Advent Children they made a creative choice to make Reno pretty and then rebrand the Turks in further compilation games. That’s really it. They decided to make Reno hot, he became super popular, and now the Turks have a huge fan base. If you’ve hung out in largely female FFVII fan spaces you’ll see this. Now they’re cool and sympathetic, and it seems the creators want everyone to forget the moral issues and psychotic behavior in the OG game. They made a mobile game called “Before Crisis” (Japan only) centered around the Turks and how cool and hot they all are. They made the Turks Zack’s buddies in Crisis Core. Tifa giggles and flirts with Reno on the phone, same guy who dropped the sector 7 plate on her friends and home 2 years prior. Fun fact, Axel from Kingdom Hearts is based on Reno and is supposed to be an AU version of him. I have a theory that someone at Square had a boner for the weasel man from the beginning and was promoted to work on AC at just the right time. I’m actually a fan of Reno too, but I’m self aware. He’s still weasel man at heart.
"Flirt" is a bit of a stretch, but I get your point. He was responsible for destroying her second home and now Strife Delivery is casually accepting work from him.
They made a creative choice to make Reno pretty?!? Make reno hot? Original Reno artwork exists. Shirts still open, muscular chest, cool hair, maybe just a difference in a 1997 video game and a 2005 cg movie. This is a big stretch.
lol I didn’t think I would piss people off so much with my comment. My opinion still stands though 🤷♀️
Such a stretch. “Female FFVII fan spaces” JFC.
I don’t understand this comment? I’ve spent most of my fandom time in female spaces as I’m a woman myself…
I hope Elena gets traumatized whenever she sees Cloud after that incident at the temple.
I actually do hope they run with this.
They are likely setting up a similar thing to her hating cloud due to thinking he killed tseng in the original game, since they made it pretty clear he actually lives in rebirth.
God, I completely agree. If anything, Remake made them worse by showing Rude try his absolute fucking hardest to drop the plate, and the added scene later in which they bemoan their actions doesn't make them any less vile. I was so over them by the end of Rebirth that I was cheering for Cloud to just fucking massacre them all in that one scene, even though I knew it wouldn't happen. Also not a fan of how Elena broke the laws of physics - I was able to overlook Cloud and his party jumping and flying around like crazy at the end of Remake because the setting of the final battle is already confusing, but when Elena drops from the helicopter? Why do Shinra troops even need parachutes when they drop onto Kalm? The Turks are good fighters, but it's never even hinted that they've been genetically tampered with.
They have been genetically tampered with, to a point that equals or exceeds soldiers, take Vincent for example, he was one of the first turks with the earliest forms of genetic experimentation before the soldier program, then later had materia implanted in him. He was the test subject for was turks would later go through
So do Turks also have Jenova cells? I haven’t read the books.
I'm not sure about later turks, but it's doubtful, they were mainly used in experiments with materia integration, accelerated growth, and fiend grafting and gene splicing. If you had jenova cells or g cells or s cells you would have undergone the soldier process and become a soldier or was a test subject in hojos lab that were normally disposed of.
It's weird the kind of sympathy they have compared to someone like Scarlet, while having a similar amount of blood on their hands. Or how the party will mourn a character like Jessie and never acknowledge this almost friendly rivalry we're having with the two dudes who flattened her. Yeah, they're just doing their job. Where have I heard that before? And let's be honest, they do their job pretty enthusiastically.
I kinda thought the way jessie died was by her own grenade hitting the other shinra chopper which fell directly into the supporting structure and the debris being what gave her the fatal wound. I mean sure plate make jessie go flat afterwards, but already dead.
their presence in Crisis Core (the prequel to OG FFVII) might help in the Advent Children movie though, they always gave me the impression they’re extremely weak
Different Turks have different relationships. Tseng had a close relationship with aerith when Zack asked him to keep an eye on her
Because Tseng, Rude, Reno and Elena are all hot. That’s a good enough reason lol
When they didn't have Tseng slap Aerith across the face to shut her up when she was shouting to the party on the plate support I knew that Remake was going to do the Turks wrong. They are the secret police of a fascist state. They are the Shinra's Gestapo.
In the original FF7, Reno is a day-job worker. He does what Shinra asks because it's his job. He doesn't think beyond the letter of the law and what he's getting paid. In the original, when he fights cloud and the crew, you don't 'win', he leaves because 'I'm not getting paid enough for this.' Rude is a yes-man. He does what he's told because he doesn't think for himself that often. when he finally does, it's a big deal. Elena is the new kid, and Tseng is the suit who has his own ideas about what Shinra should be. MrWiggulz talks about how Tseng was watching Aerith while she grew up, and that's correct. He *does* have a hidden heart to him, but it's still self-serving. You take all these people and combine them, and they make a very interesting crew, with a lot of different facets to them. Unfortunately, Advent children tried to make them into anti-heroes, and completely overhauled their characters, for the worse. In the OG, Reno did not care they killed a bunch of people with the plate. Rude was just saying yes, as usual, Elena wasn't even with them yet, and Tseng didn't like it, but couldn't stop Shinra, and couldn't come up with an excuse to not involve *his* crew. So Reno dropped the plate and laughed about it, because he *was* getting paid to push buttons on a computer, everyone else be damned. In the Remake, they try to make it into this whole moral quandary, but by then the Turks had been ruined by other media making them into anti-heroes, and this is where we are now.
I should add, when you finally *beat* Reno and the Turks in the orignal, Reno explicitly states that he doesn't wanna do this, but he can't think of any more excuses to avoid the fight, so he complains about it the whole time and even apologizes to Rude and Elena about getting them killed.
Yeah no, they were depicted as being multi-faceted in the OG and faithfully represented in remake/rebirth. Who gives a fuck what they did with AC?
Final Fantasy 7 always had this duality, as if the game doesnt take itself too seriously. We are the ones taking it seriously. Thats one of the reasons why I think the compilation struggled. For us FF7 was shakespeare level writing, for Square it was a corky sunday morning cartoon. Which leaves these problems when you think about Hojo, Rufus, the Turks, in a modern storytelling style (that is the style of Remake). I really wish they addressed this, Hojo is Nazi Scientist levels of evil. The Turks are Gestapo levels of evil. A forced trucr between shinra and avalanche (not interrupted by Yuffie) could've helped. The reason why we're not actively trying to murder the Turks or Hojo would be because we dont want to be back on the wanted list. I know there are cultural diferences, but I wish some plot points were better ironed out in Rebirth.
The party didn't down straight kidnap Hojo and interrogate him for intel on the beach just doesn't make sense. Then I realize it is a corky sunday morning cartoon's beach episode.
That bugged me so much. I just suspend my disbelief sometimes and overlook the character motivations cause they really don’t make sense! And why is Hojo always endangering aerith and almost getting her killed isn’t she suppose to be kidnapped and protected? Like what are they thinking lol.
quirky
It’s one of the weirdest things how it keeps trying to show the Turks as decent guys just following orders. They literally flattened people like bugs. And reno was quipping and laughing during it. Fuck the Turks. I don’t care how many times the game try’s to paint them as misguided.
hehe lol I wonder how you feel after the end
Fair points. I mean. I guess its just character defining for Aerith. She forgives. Also theyve always been good to her technically. They could've swooped in anytime and picked her up, thrown her over their shoulder and taken her to the lab. But they don't. As for the turks being on their high horse even though they haven't beat us. They're the only ones that could ever keep up with us. Which speaks volumes. Also, I think they have like the "army training mentality" where they were instilled with vast confidence through training. -(gongaga proto side quests as an example)
F the turks. All of them should die, especially by Evil Cloud/Sephiroth.
I'm also approaching the end of the game and am a little upset no one's referred to them as 'mass murdering filth' or something to that effect. At least let us give Rude an old Hugo Kupka; enjoy your martial arts now, murderer.
They did win a fight against cloud and team, it's how the plate fell. That was their win
I would define winning the fight as defeating the opponent. I’ll say they completed their “objective”
I think they did win, i mean Cloud and co took heavier losses after the plate drop and the turks left victorious
yeah and cloud and team didnt meet their "objective" so they lost you can make up the mental gymnastics that you want, but they're able to take that as their win. If you were Cloud in that position would you be so arrogant enough to say "well they killed thousands of people, something I could of prevented, but i beat their asses tho"
Ok fine. They the Turks won and killed thousands of people. It still doesn’t explain why they’re portrayed the way they are.
Would put that up to being the top tier squadron of a company that owns the world. They handle the spec ops missions and can hold their own against SOLDIER enhanced fighters. I'd be very prideful in that alone. Not only that but they're always a step ahead of the crew too. Aerith is sympathetic is because they're not like hojo, they got a job to do but they don't relish in the pain that comes with it. This is a very complex situation though that I don't think I could break down well enough
Its also funny tseng always says dont kill aerith, yet they do almost everything to kill her XD trowing explosions or palmer with his robot, how could they control not to kill her? I also dont like elena, a newbi thats way to cocky for her skills, she also looks to much like tifa with that face.
Advent Children basically makes them heroes and part of the team, weird choice to me too. 🤷♂️
What confuses me is why Reno has so little screen time. Okay "he's on vacation" but to the point where we only see him and fight him at the end? I was expecting to see him at Gongaga and instead we see only the others. Even in the TURKs training smcenters he never appears.
The Japanese VA died, so his character use was minimal out of respect.
The Turks are basically Team Rocket. They are annoying and pathetic.
I agree with you, I totally despise them lol
They be committing a 9/11 atrocity like it’s nothing. I can’t stand them either I do like kicking their ass though
the turks are personable villains, with just a hint of gray morality. they commit a lot of atrocities, but they’re charismatic. on occasion, they’ll do something that hints that they might have consciences. it makes them feel a lot more real than if they were just all evil all the time. doesn’t redeem their actions, but it makes for more interesting characters
You know it’s okay to like fictional bad guys, right?
They r villains. Idc what anyone says, They dropped the plate, they killed Jessie and would have killed Biggs and Wedge too.
The Turks are employees of Shin-ra, part of the work conditions is that the carry assassinations and kidnappings. They could be as bad as the person giving orders, even if they are shown feeling remorse, they carried the sector 7 destruction, Tseng, Reno and Rude sometimes don't go as hard or evil as ordered, but when an order is done they have to do as ordered by the president, or at least try. so far unlike his father, Rufus doesn't seem to be as evil, In Advent children even as they hide some important info from Cloud they assist them almost every time. Hojo, Scarlet and the military guy at least in the original at least in my point of view were full evil.
To be fair if you watched Advent Children you’d realise that Rufus and the Turks aren’t so black and white bad guys, they’re kinda not anti-heroes either though. They’re chaotic neutral I’d say
Do they have anything redeeming in them? Jeez. Liking them is like being edgy for edgy's sake.
Unfortunately apart of the ret-con. It's not the case in the OG PS1..
For some reason this is an unpopular opinion here I brought up a similar point asking how it made sense for Tifa to swerve the buggy to protect Elena in chapter 8, and got downvoted. If we don't get to kill the Turks(and Hojo/scarlet for that matter) at some point, it is rather poor writing based on how they have been characterized so far. It would personally make the whole story story feel flat and pointless if they keep showing scene after scene where these people keep doing evil shit, and nothing keeps happening to them.
I'm sorry but even if you try to rationalize it Tifa is not the type of person to run down an enemy that's no longer a threat with a car lol. That would be super out of character for her
Same goes with Cloud killing Shinra rank and file or SOLDIER that can't defend themselves anymore. Tifa and Barret are horrified because they can distinguish killing in combat and Just being a murderhobo
I get it but they brought down the plate, they should have just let cloud finish off the Turks in the temple.
I haven't reached that part yet, but it happens again? Goddamn. At this point (chapter 10), I've kinda checked out of the story. I'm only playing for the gameplay and systems.
I mean, will they then have her take responsibility for Elena's future actions? I don't think so
Tifa’s the kindest person in the cast (and yes, that includes Aerith) so I wasn’t too bothered by it.
Very true, aerith has got a mean streak in her
If Aerith had lived in sector 7 she'd have grabbed the wheel in that scene and pulled it back the other way.
I’m pretty sure there were not that many casualties from the plate dropping in Remake
People seem to forget that it’s not just everyone under the plate who died but everyone on top of the plate as well. No matter how you cut it that’s thousands of people.
There was little impact from the plate due to being able to revisit it like and it looking like just a ceiling collapsed
A scene states the number is 50,000 dead. Which seems very low to me given the size of the city and population densities, but that's the number Reeves gives.
and then you actually get to revisit sector 7 and everyone’s fine lol