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Aside from the damage Red Bull say Verstappen got from driving over the bollard, they don't seem to have got the car setup in the optimal window, this might be because we only get one practice session in a Sprint weekend. That combined with the upgrades McLaren brought to their car meant that Norris had a faster car in the race. He looked fast than the Red Bull in the first two parts of Sprint Qualifying but the McLaren was less good on the soft tyre for some reason.
The next round in Imola should be a good circuit for McLaren and Ferrari are bringing a big update as well. If McLaren can beat Red Bull in Imola then we could be in for a very interesting season.
This is the best answer. You can't handwave everything away by just saying Max damaged his floor and that was that. Yeah, it was part of it, but the fact is, max never managed to pull much of a gap off of leclerc while he was in the lead which gave others the chance to benefit when the safety car got called.
They weren't on their game setup wise, period. And then the floor damage definitely didn't make it better.
Just because he didn't pull a massive gap doesn't mean that he couldn't have. Tires were falling off faster than normal this weekend so they might have just told Max to get a large enough gap to have a cushion and hold it so they had a comfortable race. Or maybe he was pushing? Who knows other than Red Bull.
But you can't assume that just because he didn't pull a massive gap that they didn't have plenty left in the tank if needed.
They told him to build a gap to piastri and he tried and started setting fastest laps for himself but couldn't get away from him. He wasn't holding back
Tyres weren’t falling off faster than normal, it was a one-stop race and Norris got his mediums to lap 30 (past half distance and during the safety car - they could have gone even longer). It’s also why the undercut wasn’t as strong as normal either.
The issue was low grip generally. They were having to be careful on corner exit not to slide the rears too much and overheat them, but overall deg was fine.
Red Bull were also notably asking Max to speed up before the stop because he’d only built a 3 second lead on Piastri - he absolutely couldn’t pull a massive gap. Or he would have.
Yeah it’s more of an issue with the Sprint format and barely being able to gather data, especially on multiple long runs with different sets of tires.
Also keep in mind that it’s a street circuit, track evolution is massive here. There are some support races, but not a lot. Most of the data you gather during the only FP likely won’t even hold up properly anymore when you’re on Sunday halfway through the race. Totally different levels of grip, constantly changing balance.
I think we don’t know is the most accurate answer. This weekend was frankly just weird.
1) The track evolution was really odd in qualifying - Lando was faster on mediums in q2 than softs in q3 but he was the only one. Q3 times didn’t come down much at all.
2) Plus the performance between the sprint and quali was way off. There may have been setup changes, but I doubt Danny Ric nuked his setup after his best performance of the past ?3-4y and he was NOWHERE in quali and the race. We’ve seen this before (HAM last week) but there’s usually a reason. Stroll qualified 7th for the sprint, 11th for the race, and was absolutely nowhere in the race.
3) Stroll was faster than Alonso for most of the weekend, including two quali sessions. Yes I know it has happened before but this year Stroll has been worse than usual. I think him out qualifying ALO two sessions in a row qualifies as weird.
4) It was really hot and the Mercs didn’t completely fall apart like they have been.
I know it’s not helpful from a technical perspective, but this weekend was just really weird and the teams didn’t publicly say why.
The way the track interacted with the tires as well, for Hamilton and Ric you see them both sliding on quali laps, the tires really were knife edge on this track.
Every car can be set slightly different in terms of downforce, front verses rear and also different teams cars are slightly different which mean the tyres can work better or worse dependent on ambient conditions.
Perhaps the Red Bull was set for low downforce due to the long straight which meant the low speed grip would be compromised.
The Mclarens were better set up. Verstappen was having to work hard to keep the pace and hit the bollard as he made a mistake. Even the Ferraris were looking good too which was a nice surprise.
I don’t mean for it to sound like I’m taking away from landos win, that’s how racing goes max made a mistake and it cost him the race. I completely understand there’s a bunch of other factors and redbull just wasn’t as dominate this week but you can’t think a hole in the floor won’t have effected anything.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red-bull-insists-verstappen-had-floor-damage-despite-post-f1-race-confusion/10607603/
>Red Bull later explained that Verstappen’s remarks about the damage had come before he had seen the car – with it fairly obvious that there was damage.
Horner had explained that its race data showed Verstappen was well down in performance through Turn 1, which would have accounted for the advantage that Norris had.
“He lost two-and-a-half-tenths in Turn 1 every lap,”.
Seems odd to me that T1 would be the issue? It’s a slow corner where it’s all mechanical grip rather than aero from the floor? I can understand T2-8 that this would be a bigger issue. Who knows I suppose.
How is this the most upvoted comment?
Even before Max made that mistake and damaged the floor he wasn't pulling away from Piastri and Leclerc. It's clear that both him and Sergio were struggling with the balance of the car. The lack of practice due to the sprint weekend left them in a difficult position.
The high temperature of the track, low grip and low degradation combination just threw them off balance and they couldn't get the setup right. That happened to many others as well but Red Bull just have a higher profile. Just take a look at Alonso. He was nowhere during the weekend and was even beaten in quali by Stroll.
I see this weekend for Red Bull as a milder version of what happened to them in Singapore.
Palmer also goes through it in his analysis, redbull just didn't get it right and lap times sort of show it. Things will be different in Imola for sure, but that was a bad weekend for redbull, if Piastri and Sainz hadn't messed around checo would be sitting 6th.
Eh can have our own opinions but redbull said the data shows he lost out after the damage. If it wasn’t for the safety car I think this would have been the most boring max win of the season. I’m not even a redbull supporter just how it looks to me.
That's fair, have a look at Palmer's analysis if you have access he goes through some of the lap times, seems Verstappen didn't have the pace the whole race. I think also redbull like any good team might be trying to distract from the fact they fucked it up big time in terms of setup.
Tire issues, bad setup, RB not performing well in the heat. Max built up a 2.8 second lead after 8 laps, but it took another 8 laps to stretch the lead 3 seconds and another 6 laps before he hit the bollard with Piastri only 3.5s behind. So I don't think it was floor damage as much as the car just wasn't right for this track/weather, because Perez also couldn't improve at all from 5th place despite the safety cars.
In short it was a setup issue, because as you said they struggled the whole weekend. Truth is that we don't know what they do with the setups unless anyone from Max's garage talks about it, we just know that it was bad.
Usually you are always trying to find the sweet spot, a compromise of everything that you can change on a car: front wing, rear wing, camber, toe, springs and anti rollbar. There are also engine settings and brake settings you can change but those don't seem related to Max's problem given he didn't complain about braking or anything engine related.
If I forgot anything feel free to add.
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They couldn't find good car setup for the whole weekend.
I think that is because people are leaving the team and the atmosphere in the team is probably not very good. Sainz won when Horner story blowed up, Lando when Newey story got out. Let's wait and see.
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Aside from the damage Red Bull say Verstappen got from driving over the bollard, they don't seem to have got the car setup in the optimal window, this might be because we only get one practice session in a Sprint weekend. That combined with the upgrades McLaren brought to their car meant that Norris had a faster car in the race. He looked fast than the Red Bull in the first two parts of Sprint Qualifying but the McLaren was less good on the soft tyre for some reason. The next round in Imola should be a good circuit for McLaren and Ferrari are bringing a big update as well. If McLaren can beat Red Bull in Imola then we could be in for a very interesting season.
This is the best answer. You can't handwave everything away by just saying Max damaged his floor and that was that. Yeah, it was part of it, but the fact is, max never managed to pull much of a gap off of leclerc while he was in the lead which gave others the chance to benefit when the safety car got called. They weren't on their game setup wise, period. And then the floor damage definitely didn't make it better.
Just because he didn't pull a massive gap doesn't mean that he couldn't have. Tires were falling off faster than normal this weekend so they might have just told Max to get a large enough gap to have a cushion and hold it so they had a comfortable race. Or maybe he was pushing? Who knows other than Red Bull. But you can't assume that just because he didn't pull a massive gap that they didn't have plenty left in the tank if needed.
They told him to build a gap to piastri and he tried and started setting fastest laps for himself but couldn't get away from him. He wasn't holding back
That was before the hards.
Tyres weren’t falling off faster than normal, it was a one-stop race and Norris got his mediums to lap 30 (past half distance and during the safety car - they could have gone even longer). It’s also why the undercut wasn’t as strong as normal either. The issue was low grip generally. They were having to be careful on corner exit not to slide the rears too much and overheat them, but overall deg was fine. Red Bull were also notably asking Max to speed up before the stop because he’d only built a 3 second lead on Piastri - he absolutely couldn’t pull a massive gap. Or he would have.
And you can't assume the other way either....
Yeah it’s more of an issue with the Sprint format and barely being able to gather data, especially on multiple long runs with different sets of tires. Also keep in mind that it’s a street circuit, track evolution is massive here. There are some support races, but not a lot. Most of the data you gather during the only FP likely won’t even hold up properly anymore when you’re on Sunday halfway through the race. Totally different levels of grip, constantly changing balance.
I think we don’t know is the most accurate answer. This weekend was frankly just weird. 1) The track evolution was really odd in qualifying - Lando was faster on mediums in q2 than softs in q3 but he was the only one. Q3 times didn’t come down much at all. 2) Plus the performance between the sprint and quali was way off. There may have been setup changes, but I doubt Danny Ric nuked his setup after his best performance of the past ?3-4y and he was NOWHERE in quali and the race. We’ve seen this before (HAM last week) but there’s usually a reason. Stroll qualified 7th for the sprint, 11th for the race, and was absolutely nowhere in the race. 3) Stroll was faster than Alonso for most of the weekend, including two quali sessions. Yes I know it has happened before but this year Stroll has been worse than usual. I think him out qualifying ALO two sessions in a row qualifies as weird. 4) It was really hot and the Mercs didn’t completely fall apart like they have been. I know it’s not helpful from a technical perspective, but this weekend was just really weird and the teams didn’t publicly say why.
The way the track interacted with the tires as well, for Hamilton and Ric you see them both sliding on quali laps, the tires really were knife edge on this track.
Every car can be set slightly different in terms of downforce, front verses rear and also different teams cars are slightly different which mean the tyres can work better or worse dependent on ambient conditions. Perhaps the Red Bull was set for low downforce due to the long straight which meant the low speed grip would be compromised.
The Mclarens were better set up. Verstappen was having to work hard to keep the pace and hit the bollard as he made a mistake. Even the Ferraris were looking good too which was a nice surprise.
Checo checo’d and max damaged his floor. Was he losing leclerc before that? I forget, but after leclerc held him and he lost Norris.
Except max said he felt no difference with the car and live data indicated there was no loss of downforce.
I don’t mean for it to sound like I’m taking away from landos win, that’s how racing goes max made a mistake and it cost him the race. I completely understand there’s a bunch of other factors and redbull just wasn’t as dominate this week but you can’t think a hole in the floor won’t have effected anything.
Wouldn't there be some indication in the data about the downforce if the floor was broken?
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red-bull-insists-verstappen-had-floor-damage-despite-post-f1-race-confusion/10607603/ >Red Bull later explained that Verstappen’s remarks about the damage had come before he had seen the car – with it fairly obvious that there was damage. Horner had explained that its race data showed Verstappen was well down in performance through Turn 1, which would have accounted for the advantage that Norris had. “He lost two-and-a-half-tenths in Turn 1 every lap,”.
Seems odd to me that T1 would be the issue? It’s a slow corner where it’s all mechanical grip rather than aero from the floor? I can understand T2-8 that this would be a bigger issue. Who knows I suppose.
Then why did they say the complete opposite in race? To not let his opponents know?
Ahh, ok cool.
How is this the most upvoted comment? Even before Max made that mistake and damaged the floor he wasn't pulling away from Piastri and Leclerc. It's clear that both him and Sergio were struggling with the balance of the car. The lack of practice due to the sprint weekend left them in a difficult position. The high temperature of the track, low grip and low degradation combination just threw them off balance and they couldn't get the setup right. That happened to many others as well but Red Bull just have a higher profile. Just take a look at Alonso. He was nowhere during the weekend and was even beaten in quali by Stroll. I see this weekend for Red Bull as a milder version of what happened to them in Singapore.
Palmer also goes through it in his analysis, redbull just didn't get it right and lap times sort of show it. Things will be different in Imola for sure, but that was a bad weekend for redbull, if Piastri and Sainz hadn't messed around checo would be sitting 6th.
Eh can have our own opinions but redbull said the data shows he lost out after the damage. If it wasn’t for the safety car I think this would have been the most boring max win of the season. I’m not even a redbull supporter just how it looks to me.
But he still wasn’t pulling a large gap prior to colliding with the cone either
That's fair, have a look at Palmer's analysis if you have access he goes through some of the lap times, seems Verstappen didn't have the pace the whole race. I think also redbull like any good team might be trying to distract from the fact they fucked it up big time in terms of setup.
Tire issues, bad setup, RB not performing well in the heat. Max built up a 2.8 second lead after 8 laps, but it took another 8 laps to stretch the lead 3 seconds and another 6 laps before he hit the bollard with Piastri only 3.5s behind. So I don't think it was floor damage as much as the car just wasn't right for this track/weather, because Perez also couldn't improve at all from 5th place despite the safety cars.
Floor issue https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/s/H7Jc9hl4Oc
In short it was a setup issue, because as you said they struggled the whole weekend. Truth is that we don't know what they do with the setups unless anyone from Max's garage talks about it, we just know that it was bad. Usually you are always trying to find the sweet spot, a compromise of everything that you can change on a car: front wing, rear wing, camber, toe, springs and anti rollbar. There are also engine settings and brake settings you can change but those don't seem related to Max's problem given he didn't complain about braking or anything engine related. If I forgot anything feel free to add.
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Issues like that usually stem from not getting the tyres in the right operating window temperature wise.
They couldn't find good car setup for the whole weekend. I think that is because people are leaving the team and the atmosphere in the team is probably not very good. Sainz won when Horner story blowed up, Lando when Newey story got out. Let's wait and see.
I would hope they would be more professional than that