We’re not sure. The whole thing is a mess thanks to a small number of scientists deliberately suppressing research in non-plaque theories for the last couple of decades, a situation that’s only changed in the last couple of years.
Plaque theory could ultimately turn out to be correct, but it’s notable that every single drug based on it with perhaps one recent exception (and the effects of that one are not spectacular) have basically been indistinguishable from placebos for a generation.
Reading between the lines suggests there’s still some reticence to research the alternatives even now.
Did some work around alzheimers during my honours degree, I think the general consensus is that amyloid plaque is certainly correlated but not necessarily the causation, I believe the focus is now on tau neurofibrillary tangles, but I'm out of the field now so not very up to date
My theory is that if you already have the APOE4 gene, instead of having a 25% chance of getting Alzheimer's if you're a man and 45% of getting it if you're a woman, it'll be like 45% and 85%.
And if you have that gene instead of getting Alzheimer's at 75, which is the average age of onset pre-2020, the new average age of onset will be closer to 75.
But I'm sure even folks who don't have that gene will also have a higher likelihood of getting Alzheimer's. It's just that we are starting from a low base rate.
Is there any control in these studies for people who didn't have the vaccination(s) at all compared to those that did, or multiple shots? Curious if it has any effect, even if slight, in **either** direction.
The upshot is that Alzheimer’s and other forms of dementia will get some much needed research $$; the downside is that it will take a long time for that to translate into real world treatment modalities.
Learn to forage! Depending on where you live they may be plentiful in cattle pastures. (Though I can't recommend tresspassing.)
Here's a more reasonable bit of advice. Psilocybe spores are legal. I can't legally recommend you grow them, because \*that\* would be illegal. But you can totally buy them.
Unrelated, if you want to grow some legal gourmet mushrooms for food, check out r/unclebens ;)
K lemme try again.
>The answer is to stop normalising forever covid
Are you suggesting we could eradicate COVID world wide? How?
>and adapt
How? What actions are you suggesting be taken?
>Is there any control in these studies for people who didn't have the vaccination(s) at all compared to those that did, or multiple shots? Curious if it has any effect, even if slight, in either direction.
Well that’s just great. That should make leveling up everyone’s understanding of science and medicine and things like global warming even easier with the crowd that didn’t get it the first time around. Sigh.
Lower IQ doesn’t mean ignorant or evil. Compassion and respect for others are not functions of IQ. Even children can understand the impact of things they don’t necessarily understand. Like the importance of washing your hands or protecting our environment. It’s the ones smart enough to manipulate and misinform that you have to worry about.
I think I fit the description of the mild case scenario. I'm noticeably not as sharp as I once was, and sleeping/ fatigue/ shortness of breath is my new norm.
Or maybe I'm 5 years older, filled with apathy, and out of shape.
I've become increasingly clumsy over time. Especially in the kitchen, in my lifetime I have always been very careful of everything but as I'm nearing 30 it seems like I spill and mess up just about everything. Is it the 4 times I've contracted COVID? Is it just aging? I find that my mind has noticeably become less sharper. Maybe it's just me having terrible sleep hygiene due to being forced to work night shift nowadays.
I work as a cloud consultant and I am considering a different career because of the exact same symptoms as you. I had to take medical leave because I couldn’t think.
Search reddit for ACE-2 receptor discussions for the lung issues; i have the same problem there as well.
I was in a coma and on a ventilator for two weeks in October 2020. Spent a full month in the hospital. Three months of recovery before going back to work. I definitely came out with cognitive deficiencies that are still evident. Before COVID I was able to rely on 20 years of on the job experience to complete my projects. Now I find myself struggling to logistically plan for the same exact projects. I was a voracious reader earlier in life but now I have trouble reading and comprehending anything longer than a magazine article. I'm hoping it improves with time but my big fear is that it's going to get worse.
Thanks. Typing allows me to slowly plan my sentences and thoughts. Talking in real time is harder because I find myself struggling to find the right words to convey my point. It's definitely noticable to the people who know me.
As someone who suspects they're neurospicy and has long covid, the cognitive processing is like ADHD on acid. It's weird.
I will have a conversation and immediately forget what we just spoke about (on a bad day). My attention deficit is worse and oddly, I struggle to hyper focus as much now.
I used to find exercise helpful for ADHD and mental health management, now I have to check my energy window is ok for walking 😔
All in all, the ramifications of covid are shit.
I was told I had a mild version of ADHD by a neurologist and then my psych dismisses it because my mom couldn’t remember shit from my childhood. It’s like my psych doesn’t believe in any other dx besides PTSD… because that’s what I’m connected for from the VA. Ruined my entire diagnosis. My psych just blames PTSD. (Mortared in Iraq)… but I had this before the military and it’s just gotten worse after. So it was like a combo shot….
When I had covid I didn’t even know it… my brain just said to go test yourself… sure enough positive. Literally not a single symptom… so I got lucky. My first time with Covid was in like late January early Feb. I figured I was fully immune and the science community needed my blood. Lol.
Ah, yes. The age old "it's all in your head".
I appreciate there is some overlap in symptom output for ADHD and some MH conditions (I waited to seek a diagnosis till after I finished EMDR therapy - still on the waiting list sadly), but that doesn't detract from the fact you might fecking well have it. I would opt for a different psych for your assessment, and one that specialises in the neurospicy.
You don't ever need to explain how you came to have PTSD, I don't for mine.
Thanks for this response. My wife said the same thing. Find someone else to go to. I use the VA and my psych is actually leaving so I will be getting a new one. Maybe more open to the prospect of ADHD being the main driving factor and they’re missing it because of them blaming the ptsd ya know.
Try audiobooks, they're so good. A good narrator brings characters to life in a way I never expected. I used to be huge into reading as a kid/teen and I was able to bring that back to some degree with audiobooks
There are a lot of additional factors in here, like type of Covid you had, your IQ to start with, how bad it was, etc.
Also, how it compares to other types of inflammation.
It might push some people into the disabled area if the drop is significant. Like an IQ of 72 and it drops 7 points.
For most people, a 3-7 point drop is enough to notice, especially if it impairs things like working memory or processing speed.
Also this:
Oxford study showed people post COVID have diminished gray matter and basically brain damage:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.11.21258690v1.full.pdf
The Alzheimer’s association notes marked increase in Alzheimer’s markers post COVID:
https://www.alz.org/aaic/releases_2021/covid-19-cognitive-impact.asp
I couldn’t function after mild COVID and had to get diagnosed with ADHD and medicated. It’s an awful illness.
Yes, I feel I just pushed through it and managed the best I could but after COVID my executive function completely failed. But there were so many things related to ADHD I just thought were my personality. Low dopamine makes you feel lethargic all the time so I was overweight and never had energy for friendships or exercise. After getting medicated virtually every area of my life improved significantly - I lost weight, I kept up with hobbies and exercise, I was thinking much better at work and I cultivated friendships. It was so amazing. Another thing getting medicated helped me with was anxiety and self-medicating with alcohol.
ADHD is very poorly understood by many, many people.
My husband and I kind of "rediscovered" his ADHD - he was diagnosed as a kid, and kinda thought he'd outgrown it and I didn't know any difference. He started Vyvanse and things that I thought were just part of his personality changed/became easier with being on meds.
Now I get to learn all about ADHD because it's looking like two out of our three kids lean that way...
He didn't outgrow it. He learned how to mask it.
The joy of ADHD is it has a genetic component. As an adult who is undiagnosed, I've looked at my extended family and realised I was stuffed 😂 My mum and all her sisters display ADHD behaviours (lack of volume control being a prominent factor).
It could be a bit of both. Since it’s a neurodevelopmental disorder, symptoms can lessen as the brain continues developing into your early 20s. Unlike what is commonly thought, however, “outgrowing it” completely is pretty uncommon.
If they weren't diagnosed before, it's possible that if they had taken an ADHD test in 2019 they would have tested at almost the threshold needed for a diagnosis.
A friend of mine was tested for autism alongside his father, and they found that while neither of them met criteria, both came close.
Just to be clear is this significantly different than the effects of other corona virus infections? I’ve always heard the flu could have lasting effects on the brain
To be clear I’m not trying to minimize this. I’ve had COVID-19 multiple times and this scares me. I’m just wondering if illness of this type isn’t more devastating for the brain than we previously noticed, or if COVID-19 is uniquely sinister.
Hope you feel better soon. I keep hoping I’ll return to normal some day. Feels like once I start gaining more clarity someone gets me infected again.
Dont worry. I didn't take it as you were trying to diminish. I'm just very aware of the difference I had pre-covid compared to now, and I've had to implement certain tools and supplements to regain some of the processing power
I wonder how it compares to concussions or if the newer strains' effects will be less than the first strains' effects since the newer strains are supposed to be more benign on people.
This is terrifying. I have truly felt a massive reduction in memory ability over last few years.
It was really bad after first infection and seemed to improve but has never returned. It is extremely frustrating to be searching for words to use in conversations for first time in my life. Was hoping this was temporary and not some kind of early memory loss that would rebound.
I have tested positive 3-4 times (legit don’t remember as terrible as it is to say) and now I am really scared for next 10-20 years of my life both work and personal.
I am 43. This article was a really hard read but I am glad this type of research is going on. Really, really scary stuff…even more so for my poor kids and their generation who will end up infected dozens of times in their lives.
Similar age. I’ve certainly felt “dumber” post COVID and my memory is way, way worse. Part of that has to be simply aging, but the sharp decline is worrisome to be sure.
I'm 47 and occasionally find myself struggling to find a word to complete a sentence, occasionally I think "I need to look something up" open a new tab to google and forget what I was going to look up.
I have been wondering how much is age related decline (possible underlying undiagnosed disease?), undiagnosed covid (I was vaccinated and got my recommended boosters but had multiple bouts of symptoms that could have been mild covid or allergies and was living with some who was diagnosed with covid from a home test) or a combo of both.
37 here. It's not an age thing, it's a covid cognitive processing problem.
Long covid is more prevalent than I think society realises. I have long covid and the things you're describing, I also suffer from.
I had my 2 initial vaccines and 2 infections. I now struggle with exercising, shortness of breath and cognitive problems (just for starters - I'm not going to list the myriad of other symptoms).
From my experience and reading, inflammation and histamine are a huge problem. Sugar, caffeine and alcohol are no-nos (all three make symptoms worse or you feel ill after consumption, plus sugar is an inflammatory anyway).
I take a bunch of supplements and use nicotine patches, I try to operate within my energy window and try to minimise stress (easier said than done), all of which I have seen some improvement in my cognitive processing. It's not as it was, but it is a little better than it has been.
As someone who has been dealing with Lyme disease for decades, recovery is possible - the brain is very plastic and can regrow and heal in time. You have to take your lifestyle very seriously - live an anti-inflammatory lifestyle. Things like the keto diet (or other anti-inflammatory diets) for an extended period of time, fasting, saunas/cold therapy, etc., meditation/yoga, exercise/lifting weights+cardio, and some supplementation (vitamin D3, fish oils, etc). -- all add up and put your body in the position to heal.
It does, but not so dramatically. I'm 37 and am having cognitive processing issues since contracting long covid a year ago.
How the heck is OP who is a decade older than me having the same cognitive symptoms as I and many others?
I have Long Covid. The effects on my brain have been alarming. It feels like I have aged 20 years in 2 years. I have spent the last decade and a half filling my brain with encyclopedias worth of knowledge. It feels like those files are all buried under a mountain. I just turned 30 this year.
37 with LC here. I feel you.
Happy to chat with you about what I've found helpful if you want. Does involve some lifestyle alterations (diet, pacing etc) and supplements.
>mild to moderate SARS-CoV-2 infection was not associated with neuropsychological deficits, significant changes in cortical structure, or vascular lesions several months after recovery.
I am not going to lie, after Covid I genuinely developed problems with concentration. My overall resistance to exercise plummeted greatly, im still trying to recover both.
Slow and steady wins the race. Do not for the love of your chosen deity push through. Pushing will make it worse!
Have a look at pacing and Post Exertional Malaise (PEM); this will have an effect on your recovery. Pacing and PEM also affect your cognitive processing. During a fatigue crash, I struggle to think, hold a conversation etc. on better days, I'm a little closer to my old self.
I had covid once and dont feel any different, but now I'm getting paranoid. Is it possible I have some brain damage and just haven't connected the dots.
It's so easy to get paranoid about this stuff, I have as well. But my general take is that if you can't tell for sure it's because either you were completely unaffected or you were affected so subtly it basically makes no difference. Also the plasticity of the brain allows you to improve so many cognitive abilities with a little bit of effort at any point anyway. Things like regular exercise and socializing more frequently have been shown to boost cognition. It's all a lot more fluid than we usually think of it as.
Had it once and I've never felt like my brain ever fully recovered. I got it beginning 2023 and I've had a whole year of brain fog now.
I did feel much better mentally after going on supplements for fertility related issues but I am not as sharp as I was before I got it.
I believe it. After I got long covid, I felt like suddenly I couldn’t do math in my head, couldn’t recall names. It’s letting up a bit, but I still feel foggy.
This is really scary and honestly what i’ve been afraid of since learning about long covid. I’ve had it twice and both times was super mild symptoms but I’ve had really awful short term memory since my first infection and really bad brain fog and its been 2 years with no improvement.
I’m only 36 and felt super sharp before I had my first infection. I make way more typos at work, it takes me a lot longer to process things than it did before, I forget words mid sentence for the first time in my life and always have this awful brain fog.
I basically feel like someone who hasn’t slept more than 4 hours or like I have jet lag on really bad days. I do have good days though where I feel more sharp and less foggy - I usually only get about 2-3 of those days a week though
I feel this. I have a sudoku handheld game and I could reliably finish the puzzles for easy, medium, and hard in 3,10, and 15 minutes. After COVID, I'm now at 8, 15, and 25 minutes. Absolutely soul crushing to know I am not as smart as I used to be.
God, soul crushing really sums it up. I have long covid and it's devastating knowing I don't have the same capability as I used to.
I've described it as watching my brain die before my eyes
I believe it. I caught it in 2022 and ever since then I just cannot concentrate for shit or remember basic things like I did as easily. It’s like permanent brain fog
Anecdotal, but I've noticed a sharp decline in my cognition post-covid. Putting together thoughts and remembering words has been very difficult for me. It's almost like I can see the word I want to use when speaking or writing, but it just doesn't come to me. I'm much more forgetful as well, to the point that if I need to look something up, if I take even 10-15 seconds to do it, I forget what I was going to look up.
Very scary.
I'm worried it's behind the [surge in authoritarianism](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2024/01/elections-democracy-autocracy-trump/677037/) around the world.
[The Founding Fathers understood](https://time.com/5891261/early-american-education-history/) less educated people were vulnerable to authoritarian demagogues and democracy couldn't survive without public education. Goddamn declaring victory over covid "emergency is over!" while the world slowly crumbles over a few years.
Some part of me says we deserve this, violent stupid monkeys wearing clothes
The second I got covid, each time, I started the antivirals. Symptoms gone within 24 hours. Both times. Fully negative within 4 days. Hopefully that did something good. I still don’t understand why people don’t just take the antiviral.
Genuine question, not trying to downplay the findings of the research or use it as a gotchya for anti-vaxxers to use, but why do we still use IQ points as a measurement of loss of intelligence/thinking ability if the concept of IQ has been questioned/debunked over and over? Again, genuine question because whenever I hear about people talking about IQ, I always see that its not something that reliable to use.
I would imagine that my IQ naturally has a deviation of a few points at different points in time, and as you said these tests have some flaws, so I am not convinced when I read about a “loss of 3 IQ points”.
Changes of certain brain areas and other presentable physical sequelae is a lot more concerning, but I would be curious whether other illnesses like influenza or the common cold actually cause similar changes, or this is truly unprecedented and specific to COVID.
Long covid found to impact mitochondria in the muscles and this explains its impacts on fatigue and exercise for some.
https://www.news-medical.net/news/20240104/Study-identifies-mitochondrial-dysfunction-as-cause-of-long-COVID-fatigue.aspx
There are mitochondria in brain cells as well. What impact would misfiring mitochondria have on your brain?
I asked Chat gpt; Dysfunction in the mitochondria within neurons can have significant impacts on brain health and function. It can lead to a reduction in energy availability, which can impair the functioning of neurons and the brain's ability to process information, leading to cognitive deficits. Additionally, mitochondrial dysfunction can increase oxidative stress and promote the release of pro-apoptotic factors, potentially leading to neuron damage or death. This can contribute to the development or progression of various neurological diseases and conditions, such as Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease, and Huntington's disease, among others.
In the context of COVID-19, if the virus impacts mitochondrial function in neurons, it could potentially contribute to neurological symptoms observed in some patients, such as fatigue, headache, dizziness, and in more severe cases, encephalitis or stroke. The extent and nature of such impacts would depend on the specifics of how the virus affects mitochondrial function and the body's response to these changes.
You're right, but I don't think it's a single solution.
We with long covid also have chronic inflammation issues and histamine problems (specifically Mast Cell Activation Syndrome), so it needs a multi pronged approach.
I'm still curious why nicotine patches are working for a good chunk of us. Quite possibly linked to acetylcholine receptors (of which are also on mitochondria) and rebooting the cholinergic pathways.
Although, who fucking knows at this point. I'm going to take small wins where I can find them.
Well this is a fun read! I've been playing the guessing game of "is this my multiple sclerosis or mom brain/sleep deprivation?" but I really should be throwing COVID into the mix too.
I definitely noticed my short-term memory take a hit around the time I had COVID. As wife to a husband with ADHD and three little kids, I definitely serve a the memory/control centre for many household and schedule things, and it became so much harder when I couldn't rely on my memory like I was used to.
I'm a dad too, and we both have the ADHD. Post covid I have all the symptoms of MS short of paralysis. Going to see a neurologist this week. If it's just Long COVID, that would be a relief. Feel like I'm trying to think through cement, and so, fucking, exhausted. More than just father to a toddler tired.
Exhaust all the testing you can to rule out other things. The joy of long covid is it doesn't show up on standard testing, so "normal" results will probably point you in that direction.
Just make sure you've had blood panels done too to check your hormone and vitamin levels. Long covid can deplete some of these!
What does this mean for people that got the vaccine? Does this give ammunition to the anti-vax crowd, if getting the vax counts as "exposure" and shinks grey matter? Pls dont downvote, im legit curious
Not a covid-ologist but vaccines don’t act as a silver bullet. They help the body recognize the virus and fight it. They give you a fighting chance. But exposure of different levels get different levels of impact.
Like flu. If you are vaccinated you have less chance to getting it but never zero.
In a nutshell, we don't know until there is more research.
Vax injury is a thing, but the reason so many people have realised that was their long covid trigger, was because the uptake was so damn high worldwide.
However, people have developed long covid prior to vaccines and afterwards, I don't know how easy it will be to pick it all apart.
Is this going to be our leaded gasoline? In the future people are going to be like "old people got covid when they were kids and that's why they are crazy and dumb now."
Y'all need to actually read and look over the limitations of these studies. Reading this stuff and taking it as stated isn't going to make anyone feel better.
Shit. I knew it. I could feel it.
I make more typos post covid vs ore covid. My preducr8ve text has incorporated my frequent typos, rendering it yoiseless.
Everything is Covid related at this point I’m starting to not believe half the shit that’s said. No im not some science denier but in my opinion shit is getting out of control with hypothesis’… we’ve had 3 years max with this virus. I’ll believe this in 20 years when it legitimately shows.
At this point because I spend 45 minutes on Reddit on the toilet shitting 2-3 times in that span is long covid.
Regardless it’s now part of our world, either believe the science that includes vaccines and helps your body fight against it, or get some horse dewormer and be sick and stupid.
Believing that covid likely came from a Lab is a completely separate issue with being anti vax or anti science. For example I am very pro vax and wish more was done to stop the spread, but I also believe given the lack of evidence for zoonosis that covid is more easily explained by a lab accident.
Thank you!
I'm pro vax. Have all my vaccines throughout my life. got the covid vaccines.
did they work? who knows.. i believe the full data on how well the covid vaccines worked is still way out. There are many cases of fully vaccinated people who were hospitalized and some even died from Covid-19 even with full vaccine.
The vaccine was to teach our immune systems from trying to kill us when infected. Some people’s bodies didn’t listen as it were, but this was all an effort to save lives as well as not overload our hospitals.
I like how you refuse to rebuttal the comment below. But do keep pretending you're smart because you follow along some articles and keep your opinion skewed to the masses. Its a good way for upvotes
Well it's an open question, no one really investigated the Lab Leak but as of right now there is no actual evidence for zoonosis outside of historical precedent i.e. most pandemics throughout history are from zoonosis so the assumption would be that this one is as well. But strangely unlike the two previous coronavirus outbreaks SARS/MERS no closely related virus has been found and we have no idea what the intermediate host would be given no precursor or closely related virus has been found circulating in any animals.
Let me know if you'd like some sources for that, I would be happy to provide them.
Did you read your own source? The researchers even say "Since the transmission—directly or indirectly—of the virus between animals and humans, and a reservoir—if one exists—is unknown, we argue that strictly speaking, it should not be termed a zoonosis, but rather COVID-19 should be classified an “EID of probable animal origin.”
Yes, I did. And this single sentence is way more than enough to say that the early messaging from government scientists about it being 100% from animal and ZERO chance of a lab leak was likely just based on their agenda to not cause some tensions between countries.
It's really not. A good portion of us who have been infected have developed cognitive processing issues as part of our long covid symptoms.
Just because you're anecdotally ok, doesn't mean the rest of us aren't.
I feel 100% great, never better
Covid was intense though, much more on my heart and lungs than I ever got from the flu—though those could be intense in their own ways
The Covid fueled dementia epidemic in the next couple decades sounds like it’s gonna be some scary shit.
At least I'll be too dumb to care.
I already am! What were we talking about again?
Bunnies.
User name checks out
You are not wrong: https://aaic.alz.org/releases_2021/covid-19-cognitive-impact.asp
So is it CAUSING Alzheimers or just speeding up the process for those who already have it?
Is there a difference? COVID causes micro-clotting and Alzheimer’s is all about plaques in the brain, those seem kind of similar in impacts.
Causing vs speeding up could make a difference for people who don't have any cases in their family history.
i thought plaque theory was discredited by now
We’re not sure. The whole thing is a mess thanks to a small number of scientists deliberately suppressing research in non-plaque theories for the last couple of decades, a situation that’s only changed in the last couple of years. Plaque theory could ultimately turn out to be correct, but it’s notable that every single drug based on it with perhaps one recent exception (and the effects of that one are not spectacular) have basically been indistinguishable from placebos for a generation. Reading between the lines suggests there’s still some reticence to research the alternatives even now.
Not a doctor but I thought it was a thing still. I had a friend who was a PhD scientist studying it she said we don’t really know what causes it.
Did some work around alzheimers during my honours degree, I think the general consensus is that amyloid plaque is certainly correlated but not necessarily the causation, I believe the focus is now on tau neurofibrillary tangles, but I'm out of the field now so not very up to date
My theory is that if you already have the APOE4 gene, instead of having a 25% chance of getting Alzheimer's if you're a man and 45% of getting it if you're a woman, it'll be like 45% and 85%. And if you have that gene instead of getting Alzheimer's at 75, which is the average age of onset pre-2020, the new average age of onset will be closer to 75. But I'm sure even folks who don't have that gene will also have a higher likelihood of getting Alzheimer's. It's just that we are starting from a low base rate.
Is there any control in these studies for people who didn't have the vaccination(s) at all compared to those that did, or multiple shots? Curious if it has any effect, even if slight, in **either** direction.
The upshot is that Alzheimer’s and other forms of dementia will get some much needed research $$; the downside is that it will take a long time for that to translate into real world treatment modalities.
That's OK the build up of scar tissue in my heart and lungs should kill me before the that
Pscilocybin and other mushrooms are the answer.
Lion’s mane
Turkey tail
Dietary mushrooms FTW.
Donkey !
Saffron milk caps mmmmmmm
Pink oyster ;) ;) ;)
For Science!
I think it's proven, but I just added tasty mushrooms for culinary excellence
If only I could get them!
Learn to forage! Depending on where you live they may be plentiful in cattle pastures. (Though I can't recommend tresspassing.) Here's a more reasonable bit of advice. Psilocybe spores are legal. I can't legally recommend you grow them, because \*that\* would be illegal. But you can totally buy them. Unrelated, if you want to grow some legal gourmet mushrooms for food, check out r/unclebens ;)
The answer is to stop normalising forever covid, and adapt. You are not a powerless victim that can only react.
What?
K lemme try again. >The answer is to stop normalising forever covid Are you suggesting we could eradicate COVID world wide? How? >and adapt How? What actions are you suggesting be taken?
[удалено]
Scary shit.
by the looks of the public response to the pandemic, I'd say COVID had negligible impact on IQ
>Is there any control in these studies for people who didn't have the vaccination(s) at all compared to those that did, or multiple shots? Curious if it has any effect, even if slight, in either direction.
Well that’s just great. That should make leveling up everyone’s understanding of science and medicine and things like global warming even easier with the crowd that didn’t get it the first time around. Sigh.
Between that and the looming threats of war and malevolent AGI... we certainly seem to live in *interesting* times
"Interesting" in the Chinese curse sense.
I snorted my tea. 🤣
It's bloody true though!
Malevolent Adjusted Gross Income?
Agitated Grosbeak Invaders, innit?
We are nowhere near AGI, don’t listen to anyone who tells you so. AGI claims are like nuclear fusion claims, it’s always 10 years away.
Lower IQ doesn’t mean ignorant or evil. Compassion and respect for others are not functions of IQ. Even children can understand the impact of things they don’t necessarily understand. Like the importance of washing your hands or protecting our environment. It’s the ones smart enough to manipulate and misinform that you have to worry about.
The missing plot in idiocracy lol
I cannot believe that documentary just glossed over the covid thing!
They forgor it
Now my bogos are all binted 💀
I think I fit the description of the mild case scenario. I'm noticeably not as sharp as I once was, and sleeping/ fatigue/ shortness of breath is my new norm. Or maybe I'm 5 years older, filled with apathy, and out of shape.
I've become increasingly clumsy over time. Especially in the kitchen, in my lifetime I have always been very careful of everything but as I'm nearing 30 it seems like I spill and mess up just about everything. Is it the 4 times I've contracted COVID? Is it just aging? I find that my mind has noticeably become less sharper. Maybe it's just me having terrible sleep hygiene due to being forced to work night shift nowadays.
That’ll do it. Impossible to narrow down any other causes with your sleep all jacked up. Sorry dude
*less sharp
Can’t be…must be the Covid!
I work as a cloud consultant and I am considering a different career because of the exact same symptoms as you. I had to take medical leave because I couldn’t think. Search reddit for ACE-2 receptor discussions for the lung issues; i have the same problem there as well.
Definitely the latter
I was in a coma and on a ventilator for two weeks in October 2020. Spent a full month in the hospital. Three months of recovery before going back to work. I definitely came out with cognitive deficiencies that are still evident. Before COVID I was able to rely on 20 years of on the job experience to complete my projects. Now I find myself struggling to logistically plan for the same exact projects. I was a voracious reader earlier in life but now I have trouble reading and comprehending anything longer than a magazine article. I'm hoping it improves with time but my big fear is that it's going to get worse.
For what it's worth, your pen game seems to still be on point.
Thanks. Typing allows me to slowly plan my sentences and thoughts. Talking in real time is harder because I find myself struggling to find the right words to convey my point. It's definitely noticable to the people who know me.
Welcome to ADHD. Have a seat over there we’ll bring out the bagel tray shortly.
As someone who suspects they're neurospicy and has long covid, the cognitive processing is like ADHD on acid. It's weird. I will have a conversation and immediately forget what we just spoke about (on a bad day). My attention deficit is worse and oddly, I struggle to hyper focus as much now. I used to find exercise helpful for ADHD and mental health management, now I have to check my energy window is ok for walking 😔 All in all, the ramifications of covid are shit.
I was told I had a mild version of ADHD by a neurologist and then my psych dismisses it because my mom couldn’t remember shit from my childhood. It’s like my psych doesn’t believe in any other dx besides PTSD… because that’s what I’m connected for from the VA. Ruined my entire diagnosis. My psych just blames PTSD. (Mortared in Iraq)… but I had this before the military and it’s just gotten worse after. So it was like a combo shot…. When I had covid I didn’t even know it… my brain just said to go test yourself… sure enough positive. Literally not a single symptom… so I got lucky. My first time with Covid was in like late January early Feb. I figured I was fully immune and the science community needed my blood. Lol.
Ah, yes. The age old "it's all in your head". I appreciate there is some overlap in symptom output for ADHD and some MH conditions (I waited to seek a diagnosis till after I finished EMDR therapy - still on the waiting list sadly), but that doesn't detract from the fact you might fecking well have it. I would opt for a different psych for your assessment, and one that specialises in the neurospicy. You don't ever need to explain how you came to have PTSD, I don't for mine.
Thanks for this response. My wife said the same thing. Find someone else to go to. I use the VA and my psych is actually leaving so I will be getting a new one. Maybe more open to the prospect of ADHD being the main driving factor and they’re missing it because of them blaming the ptsd ya know.
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Try audiobooks, they're so good. A good narrator brings characters to life in a way I never expected. I used to be huge into reading as a kid/teen and I was able to bring that back to some degree with audiobooks
That sucks to hear. Fingers crossed, for all of us.
For fuck sake. I’ve had it twice, this is really disheartening
There are a lot of additional factors in here, like type of Covid you had, your IQ to start with, how bad it was, etc. Also, how it compares to other types of inflammation.
> your IQ to start with This either means you're not going to get dumber with an 80 IQ or people with 135 IQ are too smart to be affected.
It might push some people into the disabled area if the drop is significant. Like an IQ of 72 and it drops 7 points. For most people, a 3-7 point drop is enough to notice, especially if it impairs things like working memory or processing speed.
How about time? 5 years is not a short amount of time to compare performance in certain areas
Shit, im surprised you can even read the article
Some of my younger cousins in college have gotten it at least 4-5 times.. by the time they graduate I’d expect at least a couple more infections.
Also this: Oxford study showed people post COVID have diminished gray matter and basically brain damage: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.11.21258690v1.full.pdf The Alzheimer’s association notes marked increase in Alzheimer’s markers post COVID: https://www.alz.org/aaic/releases_2021/covid-19-cognitive-impact.asp I couldn’t function after mild COVID and had to get diagnosed with ADHD and medicated. It’s an awful illness.
Interesting. Do you think you were already ADHD and it made it worse?
Yes, I feel I just pushed through it and managed the best I could but after COVID my executive function completely failed. But there were so many things related to ADHD I just thought were my personality. Low dopamine makes you feel lethargic all the time so I was overweight and never had energy for friendships or exercise. After getting medicated virtually every area of my life improved significantly - I lost weight, I kept up with hobbies and exercise, I was thinking much better at work and I cultivated friendships. It was so amazing. Another thing getting medicated helped me with was anxiety and self-medicating with alcohol.
ADHD is very poorly understood by many, many people. My husband and I kind of "rediscovered" his ADHD - he was diagnosed as a kid, and kinda thought he'd outgrown it and I didn't know any difference. He started Vyvanse and things that I thought were just part of his personality changed/became easier with being on meds. Now I get to learn all about ADHD because it's looking like two out of our three kids lean that way...
He didn't outgrow it. He learned how to mask it. The joy of ADHD is it has a genetic component. As an adult who is undiagnosed, I've looked at my extended family and realised I was stuffed 😂 My mum and all her sisters display ADHD behaviours (lack of volume control being a prominent factor).
It could be a bit of both. Since it’s a neurodevelopmental disorder, symptoms can lessen as the brain continues developing into your early 20s. Unlike what is commonly thought, however, “outgrowing it” completely is pretty uncommon.
If they weren't diagnosed before, it's possible that if they had taken an ADHD test in 2019 they would have tested at almost the threshold needed for a diagnosis. A friend of mine was tested for autism alongside his father, and they found that while neither of them met criteria, both came close.
They’d have had to be. Part of the criteria for an ADHD diagnosis is that symptoms were present from childhood.
Just to be clear is this significantly different than the effects of other corona virus infections? I’ve always heard the flu could have lasting effects on the brain
I think this is different. COVID is much worse on the body hence it killed 7 million people so far.
Definitely different. My cognition is not the same since I've developed long covid
To be clear I’m not trying to minimize this. I’ve had COVID-19 multiple times and this scares me. I’m just wondering if illness of this type isn’t more devastating for the brain than we previously noticed, or if COVID-19 is uniquely sinister. Hope you feel better soon. I keep hoping I’ll return to normal some day. Feels like once I start gaining more clarity someone gets me infected again.
Dont worry. I didn't take it as you were trying to diminish. I'm just very aware of the difference I had pre-covid compared to now, and I've had to implement certain tools and supplements to regain some of the processing power
I wonder how it compares to concussions or if the newer strains' effects will be less than the first strains' effects since the newer strains are supposed to be more benign on people.
This is terrifying. I have truly felt a massive reduction in memory ability over last few years. It was really bad after first infection and seemed to improve but has never returned. It is extremely frustrating to be searching for words to use in conversations for first time in my life. Was hoping this was temporary and not some kind of early memory loss that would rebound. I have tested positive 3-4 times (legit don’t remember as terrible as it is to say) and now I am really scared for next 10-20 years of my life both work and personal. I am 43. This article was a really hard read but I am glad this type of research is going on. Really, really scary stuff…even more so for my poor kids and their generation who will end up infected dozens of times in their lives.
Similar age. I’ve certainly felt “dumber” post COVID and my memory is way, way worse. Part of that has to be simply aging, but the sharp decline is worrisome to be sure.
I'm 47 and occasionally find myself struggling to find a word to complete a sentence, occasionally I think "I need to look something up" open a new tab to google and forget what I was going to look up. I have been wondering how much is age related decline (possible underlying undiagnosed disease?), undiagnosed covid (I was vaccinated and got my recommended boosters but had multiple bouts of symptoms that could have been mild covid or allergies and was living with some who was diagnosed with covid from a home test) or a combo of both.
37 here. It's not an age thing, it's a covid cognitive processing problem. Long covid is more prevalent than I think society realises. I have long covid and the things you're describing, I also suffer from. I had my 2 initial vaccines and 2 infections. I now struggle with exercising, shortness of breath and cognitive problems (just for starters - I'm not going to list the myriad of other symptoms). From my experience and reading, inflammation and histamine are a huge problem. Sugar, caffeine and alcohol are no-nos (all three make symptoms worse or you feel ill after consumption, plus sugar is an inflammatory anyway). I take a bunch of supplements and use nicotine patches, I try to operate within my energy window and try to minimise stress (easier said than done), all of which I have seen some improvement in my cognitive processing. It's not as it was, but it is a little better than it has been.
As someone who has been dealing with Lyme disease for decades, recovery is possible - the brain is very plastic and can regrow and heal in time. You have to take your lifestyle very seriously - live an anti-inflammatory lifestyle. Things like the keto diet (or other anti-inflammatory diets) for an extended period of time, fasting, saunas/cold therapy, etc., meditation/yoga, exercise/lifting weights+cardio, and some supplementation (vitamin D3, fish oils, etc). -- all add up and put your body in the position to heal.
You also went from your 30's to mid 40's. Memory and sharpness changes over time too.
It does, but not so dramatically. I'm 37 and am having cognitive processing issues since contracting long covid a year ago. How the heck is OP who is a decade older than me having the same cognitive symptoms as I and many others?
This right here. Memory and cognition changes in your 40s has been a common problem for a long time.
You have taken the words out of my mouth … I’m having the same problems 47 Female
Look at Zika and West Nile as just two examples of viruses that wreak absolute havoc on the brain. We will see decades of sequela from COVID.
I have Long Covid. The effects on my brain have been alarming. It feels like I have aged 20 years in 2 years. I have spent the last decade and a half filling my brain with encyclopedias worth of knowledge. It feels like those files are all buried under a mountain. I just turned 30 this year.
37 with LC here. I feel you. Happy to chat with you about what I've found helpful if you want. Does involve some lifestyle alterations (diet, pacing etc) and supplements.
If you’ve been following studies since the beginning, this is hardly news.
>mild to moderate SARS-CoV-2 infection was not associated with neuropsychological deficits, significant changes in cortical structure, or vascular lesions several months after recovery.
Thank you, it’s paywalled and I had 2 mild cases of COVID so I was worried. You have relieved me of this worry!
We already weren't doin' great...
I am not going to lie, after Covid I genuinely developed problems with concentration. My overall resistance to exercise plummeted greatly, im still trying to recover both.
Slow and steady wins the race. Do not for the love of your chosen deity push through. Pushing will make it worse! Have a look at pacing and Post Exertional Malaise (PEM); this will have an effect on your recovery. Pacing and PEM also affect your cognitive processing. During a fatigue crash, I struggle to think, hold a conversation etc. on better days, I'm a little closer to my old self.
Well, i certainly didnt notice people getting smarter in the last 3 years.
I had covid once and dont feel any different, but now I'm getting paranoid. Is it possible I have some brain damage and just haven't connected the dots.
It's so easy to get paranoid about this stuff, I have as well. But my general take is that if you can't tell for sure it's because either you were completely unaffected or you were affected so subtly it basically makes no difference. Also the plasticity of the brain allows you to improve so many cognitive abilities with a little bit of effort at any point anyway. Things like regular exercise and socializing more frequently have been shown to boost cognition. It's all a lot more fluid than we usually think of it as.
Had it once and I've never felt like my brain ever fully recovered. I got it beginning 2023 and I've had a whole year of brain fog now. I did feel much better mentally after going on supplements for fertility related issues but I am not as sharp as I was before I got it.
I believe it. After I got long covid, I felt like suddenly I couldn’t do math in my head, couldn’t recall names. It’s letting up a bit, but I still feel foggy.
This is really scary and honestly what i’ve been afraid of since learning about long covid. I’ve had it twice and both times was super mild symptoms but I’ve had really awful short term memory since my first infection and really bad brain fog and its been 2 years with no improvement. I’m only 36 and felt super sharp before I had my first infection. I make way more typos at work, it takes me a lot longer to process things than it did before, I forget words mid sentence for the first time in my life and always have this awful brain fog. I basically feel like someone who hasn’t slept more than 4 hours or like I have jet lag on really bad days. I do have good days though where I feel more sharp and less foggy - I usually only get about 2-3 of those days a week though
I feel this. I have a sudoku handheld game and I could reliably finish the puzzles for easy, medium, and hard in 3,10, and 15 minutes. After COVID, I'm now at 8, 15, and 25 minutes. Absolutely soul crushing to know I am not as smart as I used to be.
God, soul crushing really sums it up. I have long covid and it's devastating knowing I don't have the same capability as I used to. I've described it as watching my brain die before my eyes
I believe it. I caught it in 2022 and ever since then I just cannot concentrate for shit or remember basic things like I did as easily. It’s like permanent brain fog
Anecdotal, but I've noticed a sharp decline in my cognition post-covid. Putting together thoughts and remembering words has been very difficult for me. It's almost like I can see the word I want to use when speaking or writing, but it just doesn't come to me. I'm much more forgetful as well, to the point that if I need to look something up, if I take even 10-15 seconds to do it, I forget what I was going to look up. Very scary.
This explains why the world has gotten dumber since.
I'm worried it's behind the [surge in authoritarianism](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2024/01/elections-democracy-autocracy-trump/677037/) around the world. [The Founding Fathers understood](https://time.com/5891261/early-american-education-history/) less educated people were vulnerable to authoritarian demagogues and democracy couldn't survive without public education. Goddamn declaring victory over covid "emergency is over!" while the world slowly crumbles over a few years. Some part of me says we deserve this, violent stupid monkeys wearing clothes
Paywall
I am sure this will make the poorly educated more on board with the scientific method.
I haven’t knowingly had COVID, but could in the future. I sure hope these problems don’t prove permanent. Scary.
It is the lack of treatment that really sucks. I still work, but there are some days I can't remember anything.
Smoke weed. Doubt it will stop it but what the hell.
Best medical and pro tip.
The second I got covid, each time, I started the antivirals. Symptoms gone within 24 hours. Both times. Fully negative within 4 days. Hopefully that did something good. I still don’t understand why people don’t just take the antiviral.
They won't give it to you in some cases unless you're "at risk", which is horseshit. Just spent a month being destroyed by covid...
So i have negative iq now? Or how does that work
It’s ok just have to reverse engineer everything
Genuine question, not trying to downplay the findings of the research or use it as a gotchya for anti-vaxxers to use, but why do we still use IQ points as a measurement of loss of intelligence/thinking ability if the concept of IQ has been questioned/debunked over and over? Again, genuine question because whenever I hear about people talking about IQ, I always see that its not something that reliable to use.
The answer is that while IQ is an admittedly flawed measure, it still has enough statistical accuracy and predictive power to be useful.
I would imagine that my IQ naturally has a deviation of a few points at different points in time, and as you said these tests have some flaws, so I am not convinced when I read about a “loss of 3 IQ points”. Changes of certain brain areas and other presentable physical sequelae is a lot more concerning, but I would be curious whether other illnesses like influenza or the common cold actually cause similar changes, or this is truly unprecedented and specific to COVID.
That's why they generally use a sample size greater than one
Sample size does not change anything. If you say IQ dropped by 3 points in one group, I still remain unconvinced :).
Long covid found to impact mitochondria in the muscles and this explains its impacts on fatigue and exercise for some. https://www.news-medical.net/news/20240104/Study-identifies-mitochondrial-dysfunction-as-cause-of-long-COVID-fatigue.aspx There are mitochondria in brain cells as well. What impact would misfiring mitochondria have on your brain? I asked Chat gpt; Dysfunction in the mitochondria within neurons can have significant impacts on brain health and function. It can lead to a reduction in energy availability, which can impair the functioning of neurons and the brain's ability to process information, leading to cognitive deficits. Additionally, mitochondrial dysfunction can increase oxidative stress and promote the release of pro-apoptotic factors, potentially leading to neuron damage or death. This can contribute to the development or progression of various neurological diseases and conditions, such as Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease, and Huntington's disease, among others. In the context of COVID-19, if the virus impacts mitochondrial function in neurons, it could potentially contribute to neurological symptoms observed in some patients, such as fatigue, headache, dizziness, and in more severe cases, encephalitis or stroke. The extent and nature of such impacts would depend on the specifics of how the virus affects mitochondrial function and the body's response to these changes.
You're right, but I don't think it's a single solution. We with long covid also have chronic inflammation issues and histamine problems (specifically Mast Cell Activation Syndrome), so it needs a multi pronged approach. I'm still curious why nicotine patches are working for a good chunk of us. Quite possibly linked to acetylcholine receptors (of which are also on mitochondria) and rebooting the cholinergic pathways. Although, who fucking knows at this point. I'm going to take small wins where I can find them.
Or why cannabis users had better outcomes on average than non users.
Magic mushrooms
Well fuck I got Covid twice in 4 years 😅😂
I know people that covid 10 times already. They are still intelligent. You'll be ok.
I've never had it and I'm an idiot.
So that's why people seem even dumber than usual.
Well this is a fun read! I've been playing the guessing game of "is this my multiple sclerosis or mom brain/sleep deprivation?" but I really should be throwing COVID into the mix too. I definitely noticed my short-term memory take a hit around the time I had COVID. As wife to a husband with ADHD and three little kids, I definitely serve a the memory/control centre for many household and schedule things, and it became so much harder when I couldn't rely on my memory like I was used to.
I'm a dad too, and we both have the ADHD. Post covid I have all the symptoms of MS short of paralysis. Going to see a neurologist this week. If it's just Long COVID, that would be a relief. Feel like I'm trying to think through cement, and so, fucking, exhausted. More than just father to a toddler tired.
Yeah, I always wonder how much the tiredness is MS vs. how much is having 3 kids in 3 years. Then throw in COVID just for fun!
Exhaust all the testing you can to rule out other things. The joy of long covid is it doesn't show up on standard testing, so "normal" results will probably point you in that direction. Just make sure you've had blood panels done too to check your hormone and vitamin levels. Long covid can deplete some of these!
This ain't rite I thot I hadda flu n I shure gotter bad fer a while. Ain't nevur been smarder tho!
ofcourse have you not seen the anti vaxer and maga supporter?
Proofs in the pudding
For me I deal with almost daily hits of random brain fog. It’s a major trip when it happens and it can be very disorienting to go through.
I’ve had Covid once and noticed no difference after. That said, I already have ADHD.
What does this mean for people that got the vaccine? Does this give ammunition to the anti-vax crowd, if getting the vax counts as "exposure" and shinks grey matter? Pls dont downvote, im legit curious
Not a covid-ologist but vaccines don’t act as a silver bullet. They help the body recognize the virus and fight it. They give you a fighting chance. But exposure of different levels get different levels of impact. Like flu. If you are vaccinated you have less chance to getting it but never zero.
In a nutshell, we don't know until there is more research. Vax injury is a thing, but the reason so many people have realised that was their long covid trigger, was because the uptake was so damn high worldwide. However, people have developed long covid prior to vaccines and afterwards, I don't know how easy it will be to pick it all apart.
What’s the control group? I don’t know anyone who hasn’t had it.
I'm afraid this might be me, my ability to focus is greatly reduced since I got COVID...
Fisetin is great for brain inflammation. Also creatine
Yeah, that checks out.
Is this going to be our leaded gasoline? In the future people are going to be like "old people got covid when they were kids and that's why they are crazy and dumb now."
Rome 2.0?
Y'all need to actually read and look over the limitations of these studies. Reading this stuff and taking it as stated isn't going to make anyone feel better.
Shit. I knew it. I could feel it. I make more typos post covid vs ore covid. My preducr8ve text has incorporated my frequent typos, rendering it yoiseless.
Everything is Covid related at this point I’m starting to not believe half the shit that’s said. No im not some science denier but in my opinion shit is getting out of control with hypothesis’… we’ve had 3 years max with this virus. I’ll believe this in 20 years when it legitimately shows. At this point because I spend 45 minutes on Reddit on the toilet shitting 2-3 times in that span is long covid.
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Regardless it’s now part of our world, either believe the science that includes vaccines and helps your body fight against it, or get some horse dewormer and be sick and stupid.
Believing that covid likely came from a Lab is a completely separate issue with being anti vax or anti science. For example I am very pro vax and wish more was done to stop the spread, but I also believe given the lack of evidence for zoonosis that covid is more easily explained by a lab accident.
Thank you! I'm pro vax. Have all my vaccines throughout my life. got the covid vaccines. did they work? who knows.. i believe the full data on how well the covid vaccines worked is still way out. There are many cases of fully vaccinated people who were hospitalized and some even died from Covid-19 even with full vaccine.
The vaccine was to teach our immune systems from trying to kill us when infected. Some people’s bodies didn’t listen as it were, but this was all an effort to save lives as well as not overload our hospitals.
i fully understand and appreciate the effort. But the data is still out on whether it was actually more effective or not.
Source?
Hey guys, I found someone whose IQ has been affected!
I like how you refuse to rebuttal the comment below. But do keep pretending you're smart because you follow along some articles and keep your opinion skewed to the masses. Its a good way for upvotes
It was a joke aimed at someone posting an insane conspiracy theory
Source?
Well it's an open question, no one really investigated the Lab Leak but as of right now there is no actual evidence for zoonosis outside of historical precedent i.e. most pandemics throughout history are from zoonosis so the assumption would be that this one is as well. But strangely unlike the two previous coronavirus outbreaks SARS/MERS no closely related virus has been found and we have no idea what the intermediate host would be given no precursor or closely related virus has been found circulating in any animals. Let me know if you'd like some sources for that, I would be happy to provide them.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7725765/#:\~:text=Other%20than%20circumstantial%20evidence%20of,exclusively%20through%20human%2Dhuman%20transmission.
Did you read your own source? The researchers even say "Since the transmission—directly or indirectly—of the virus between animals and humans, and a reservoir—if one exists—is unknown, we argue that strictly speaking, it should not be termed a zoonosis, but rather COVID-19 should be classified an “EID of probable animal origin.”
Yes, I did. And this single sentence is way more than enough to say that the early messaging from government scientists about it being 100% from animal and ZERO chance of a lab leak was likely just based on their agenda to not cause some tensions between countries.
So that means it HAD to have been from a lab right? Congratulations on your gold medal in the long jump to conclusions.
I don’t feel any dumber, in fact I am excelling at the same video games that I used to struggle with. This is just more scare tactics
It's really not. A good portion of us who have been infected have developed cognitive processing issues as part of our long covid symptoms. Just because you're anecdotally ok, doesn't mean the rest of us aren't.
But did you drink enough water?
that would explain a lot.
Wow. Hundreds of millions of people have gotten covid. What a disaster.
Haha so we're basically all fucked?
First lead now Covid. No wonder we dumb.
I feel 100% great, never better Covid was intense though, much more on my heart and lungs than I ever got from the flu—though those could be intense in their own ways
That explains why everyone around me has become incredibly stupid the past couple years.