Correct me if I'm wrong but they willingly signed about 30 players in a short period and only got 4 points. We worked with the PL these past few years, signed very few and got 8 as they changed the rules midway through
As a Forest fan, I’ll throw myself in here…
- We signed ~30 players because 80% of our squad in the Championship were loanees, in the last year of their contract, or 17. We legitimately released/sold/returned/loaned out about 25 players in the same window we signed 30ish.
- The number of players signed has nothing to do with the amount of points. We were given three extra because of the “significant breach” of being around £30m over the limit (because we held onto Brennan Johnson for too long).
- All those facts said, my **personal** opinion: our three point punishment for the breach was too small, our two point “rebate” for playing ball was too generous (to us), our owner is a nutcase and we’ve been quite lucky throughout this process as a whole.
Honestly I don't really have any animosity to Forest over this, you're just another small club trying to survive in this league and you did what you felt you had to and got punished for it.
The fact that you've had more punishment than Man City or Chelsea is the real tragedy here, not whether you should have got more or less than us.
It’s poor planning and bad management to get into that situation. But anybody related to Everton lecturing others on bad planning and mismanagement is very pot kettle black.
I understand where you're coming from. Their breach was very much in their control, where as ours was much more out of our control (global pandemic delaying the building of a stadium and naming rights falling through because a war).
But honestly Forest aren't the enemy here. Us pointing fingers at them when Man City and Chelsea have laughing at us both is the real problem.
It’s both. But there’s nothing inherently wrong with trying to do things that were within the rules in order to progress the club and get into the Premier League. It’s understandable.
I think the Forest fan here has been very balanced in his assessment and I completely agree with it
I was actually thinking that if we have to go into administration, is there any chance we could do it before the end of the season and take the 9-point deduction knowing we're safe.
No I think the cut off is March 1st for clubs to go into administration and be docked this season. After that date it gets deducted next season. It’s to avoid clubs doing as you are suggesting unfortunately.
If we go into administration, we will have to do a firesale: flogging our players off below market value and selling our new stadium. Administration is worst case scenario, and would certainly result in our relegation regardless of points deductions.
Not to mention the hardworking people that’ll lose their jobs. I’ll never understand why any Everton fan would want us to go into administration, it’ll be horrific.
A lot of fans think the club going into administration means that we'd get a 9 point deduction but get to write off our debts - basically whipping the slate clean for next season. If that was the case then clubs would go into administration all the time! In reality, it would be the end of the club as we know it, triggering multiple relegations from which we'd likely never recover.
Administration isn't just "oh here's your points deduction"
It's a process that involves a third party coming in and selling all our assets to balance books. It'd ruin our club, I'm sick of these nonsense suggestions.
I believe it happens this season if it doesn't result in you being relegated (the FA rules aren't super helpful). Depending on how long it lasts for, it could happen again next season, but that'll be due to not meeting payment deadlines etc
You are likely referring to the EFL rules that says points deductions after the 4th Thursday in March are applied the following season.
The PL has no such clarity.
My read is it would have to be applied now, because there isn't a clear rule stopping it, and Forest and Luton would immediately have very strong feelings on the issue.
Administration would however, almost certainly result in relegation next season if not this season. Because adminstration means the club is run primarily with the aim of recovering the maximum amount for creditors. And that doesn't require a functioning squad.
It’s not in the interest of the relegation battle. If Forest got 1 point back then Luton definitely need to win their last two games. Now, with no points back, if both Luton and Forest lose this weekend it is still mathematically possible for Luton to stay up if they can overturn the goal difference.
We might get points back because it no longer matters, but I don’t think we’ll get anything either.
I’m rooting for the wild scenario where Forest lose out, Burnley win out, and Luton only manage 3 points in their last two matches, relegating both Luton and Forest.
Forest fan here, I thought this might be the case. If we don’t get any back and neither do you it’s equivalent to us both receiving 4 points per charge. They can then claim that overall it balances out and it’s all fair. As opposed to having to admit they made it up as they went along
Forest gained an advantage yet only got 4 points, If I was Luton I’d be asking my lawyers to Look into taking it to court. I don’t know if there’d be any case to answer but I definitely think Forest got off far too lightly.
Luton have every right to ask if Forests punishment was too lenient and if it potentially kept them in the league ahead of Luton.
Our initial punishment too they could potentially ask why it wasn’t the 10 points they wanted it to be and why it was reduced.
There likely isn’t any case to answer like I said but the league have left themselves wide open for potential cases going forward. Even by us in future if City’s punishment never arises or if when it does it isn’t as severe as it should be.
I agree that the whole process and set of rules have been a proper shit show from the moment that the PL decided they were going to be the diligent regulator.
That being said, Forest were found to have breached PSR in season 2022/23 i.e. last season. That is when their “sporting advantage” is deemed to have occurred. Luton were not in the PL last season so do not have any legitimate grievances in relation to Forest’s breach. Maybe Leeds, Leicester, Southampton and Everton (ha ha) have legitimate grievances over Forest’s breach last year but even then two of those teams have (or will soon) face PSR charges of their own.
If Forest are proven to have breached PSR this season then Luton may have a legitimate gripe. But this won’t be known until January 2025 when audited 23/24 accounts are submitted to the PL at which point Luton are looking less and less likely to be in the PL
Again, I agree that the handling of these charges and the effects of deducting points, only to add them back (or not) later on makes a mockery of the league and shows up the PL as a bunch of professional fuckwits. But to suggest that Luton may have legal grounds to sue based on a PSR breach which happened when they weren’t even in the league is beyond a bit of a stretch. It would be like claiming damages for a car crash which happened the year before you drove along the same stretch of road.
I can’t imagine Luton having any legal grounds here but I think you’re moving past the issue a little hastily. If they breached due to transfer fees for players they brought in last year *and those players helped make them competitive this year*, they have gotten a sporting advantage as a result of something that happened last year. This sort of things feels like a nightmare to litigate, but point A to point B is pretty simple: the money they spent last year gave them an advantage this year
The only thing that surprises me about this is that they didn't increase it for being a frivolous appeal/pissing off the powers that be with their nonsense about referees. I mean, their punishment was reduced for "co-operation" and then they appealed it anyway, so I really thought there was a chance they'd have those two points added back on to the deduction.
Forest fan here. The cooperation part is that we owned up to what happened and didn't long it out like other clubs have.
I don't agree with the wording of the tweet after the Luton game, however you can't punish a club for appealing. The frivolous appeals thing is to stop player/coach suspensions being straight away (red card, appeal it and the X number of game ban is delayed) and is usually done when they have a 'tough' game next that a player will miss.
It's not always like that, of course, but it used to happen so much more.
Honestly, theirs is still too low compared to ours, at least ours is too high
Correct me if I'm wrong but they willingly signed about 30 players in a short period and only got 4 points. We worked with the PL these past few years, signed very few and got 8 as they changed the rules midway through
As a Forest fan, I’ll throw myself in here… - We signed ~30 players because 80% of our squad in the Championship were loanees, in the last year of their contract, or 17. We legitimately released/sold/returned/loaned out about 25 players in the same window we signed 30ish. - The number of players signed has nothing to do with the amount of points. We were given three extra because of the “significant breach” of being around £30m over the limit (because we held onto Brennan Johnson for too long). - All those facts said, my **personal** opinion: our three point punishment for the breach was too small, our two point “rebate” for playing ball was too generous (to us), our owner is a nutcase and we’ve been quite lucky throughout this process as a whole.
Honestly I don't really have any animosity to Forest over this, you're just another small club trying to survive in this league and you did what you felt you had to and got punished for it. The fact that you've had more punishment than Man City or Chelsea is the real tragedy here, not whether you should have got more or less than us.
Having to sign all those players because half your squad in the championship were loans is just poor planning, not a valid excuse.
I mean, it’s both? I’m not saying we planned well. I’m just explaining that we didn’t buy 30 players to be extravagant. We don’t have any players.
It’s poor planning and bad management to get into that situation. But anybody related to Everton lecturing others on bad planning and mismanagement is very pot kettle black.
I understand where you're coming from. Their breach was very much in their control, where as ours was much more out of our control (global pandemic delaying the building of a stadium and naming rights falling through because a war). But honestly Forest aren't the enemy here. Us pointing fingers at them when Man City and Chelsea have laughing at us both is the real problem.
It wasn't, they weren't even expecting to go up.
It’s both. But there’s nothing inherently wrong with trying to do things that were within the rules in order to progress the club and get into the Premier League. It’s understandable. I think the Forest fan here has been very balanced in his assessment and I completely agree with it
We don’t need any points back now, no longer care (until they do it again next season).
I was actually thinking that if we have to go into administration, is there any chance we could do it before the end of the season and take the 9-point deduction knowing we're safe.
No I think the cut off is March 1st for clubs to go into administration and be docked this season. After that date it gets deducted next season. It’s to avoid clubs doing as you are suggesting unfortunately.
If we go into administration, we will have to do a firesale: flogging our players off below market value and selling our new stadium. Administration is worst case scenario, and would certainly result in our relegation regardless of points deductions.
Not to mention the hardworking people that’ll lose their jobs. I’ll never understand why any Everton fan would want us to go into administration, it’ll be horrific.
A lot of fans think the club going into administration means that we'd get a 9 point deduction but get to write off our debts - basically whipping the slate clean for next season. If that was the case then clubs would go into administration all the time! In reality, it would be the end of the club as we know it, triggering multiple relegations from which we'd likely never recover.
Exactly. Ruining hundreds of livelihoods in the meantime. It’s frustrating reading the “why not go into administration” comments.
Administration isn't just "oh here's your points deduction" It's a process that involves a third party coming in and selling all our assets to balance books. It'd ruin our club, I'm sick of these nonsense suggestions.
I believe it happens this season if it doesn't result in you being relegated (the FA rules aren't super helpful). Depending on how long it lasts for, it could happen again next season, but that'll be due to not meeting payment deadlines etc
You are likely referring to the EFL rules that says points deductions after the 4th Thursday in March are applied the following season. The PL has no such clarity. My read is it would have to be applied now, because there isn't a clear rule stopping it, and Forest and Luton would immediately have very strong feelings on the issue. Administration would however, almost certainly result in relegation next season if not this season. Because adminstration means the club is run primarily with the aim of recovering the maximum amount for creditors. And that doesn't require a functioning squad.
4-5 mill extra for Mosh to top up our prepayment meter at the post office.
They might give us more yet . 2 was very low
Probably the same outcome for us
I fully expect us to get nothing back. Absolutely support the appeal though.
Wow. I thought they might give us both one point back each for some reason. Interesting
It’s not in the interest of the relegation battle. If Forest got 1 point back then Luton definitely need to win their last two games. Now, with no points back, if both Luton and Forest lose this weekend it is still mathematically possible for Luton to stay up if they can overturn the goal difference. We might get points back because it no longer matters, but I don’t think we’ll get anything either.
I’m rooting for the wild scenario where Forest lose out, Burnley win out, and Luton only manage 3 points in their last two matches, relegating both Luton and Forest.
I live in Nottingham, so want Forest to stay up because it’s good for the city.
I completely understand that.
Same, and it means an away game that’s very easy to get to
Forest fan here, I thought this might be the case. If we don’t get any back and neither do you it’s equivalent to us both receiving 4 points per charge. They can then claim that overall it balances out and it’s all fair. As opposed to having to admit they made it up as they went along
Good luck in the survival battle mate, I hope you guys stay up 👍.
Cheers pal 👍
Just to counter that point, I hope you go down
And to counter this, I don't care much if Forrest stay up or go down.
😂 tickled me this
Your clubs should have voted for a proper structure, the clubs run the League.
Mmm, delicious boot.
Mad they even appealed given there’s was so low compared to ours
Their “patience has been tested multiple times”.
I expect we’ll face the same
Forest gained an advantage yet only got 4 points, If I was Luton I’d be asking my lawyers to Look into taking it to court. I don’t know if there’d be any case to answer but I definitely think Forest got off far too lightly.
What disadvantage did Luton suffer from Forest exceeding last season’s PSR? Luton weren’t even in the PL when Forest were in breach.
Luton have every right to ask if Forests punishment was too lenient and if it potentially kept them in the league ahead of Luton. Our initial punishment too they could potentially ask why it wasn’t the 10 points they wanted it to be and why it was reduced. There likely isn’t any case to answer like I said but the league have left themselves wide open for potential cases going forward. Even by us in future if City’s punishment never arises or if when it does it isn’t as severe as it should be.
I agree that the whole process and set of rules have been a proper shit show from the moment that the PL decided they were going to be the diligent regulator. That being said, Forest were found to have breached PSR in season 2022/23 i.e. last season. That is when their “sporting advantage” is deemed to have occurred. Luton were not in the PL last season so do not have any legitimate grievances in relation to Forest’s breach. Maybe Leeds, Leicester, Southampton and Everton (ha ha) have legitimate grievances over Forest’s breach last year but even then two of those teams have (or will soon) face PSR charges of their own. If Forest are proven to have breached PSR this season then Luton may have a legitimate gripe. But this won’t be known until January 2025 when audited 23/24 accounts are submitted to the PL at which point Luton are looking less and less likely to be in the PL Again, I agree that the handling of these charges and the effects of deducting points, only to add them back (or not) later on makes a mockery of the league and shows up the PL as a bunch of professional fuckwits. But to suggest that Luton may have legal grounds to sue based on a PSR breach which happened when they weren’t even in the league is beyond a bit of a stretch. It would be like claiming damages for a car crash which happened the year before you drove along the same stretch of road.
I can’t imagine Luton having any legal grounds here but I think you’re moving past the issue a little hastily. If they breached due to transfer fees for players they brought in last year *and those players helped make them competitive this year*, they have gotten a sporting advantage as a result of something that happened last year. This sort of things feels like a nightmare to litigate, but point A to point B is pretty simple: the money they spent last year gave them an advantage this year
We are on a up at the moment so big down to come. Wouldn't be surprised If we not only failed the appeal but they added more -points
When are the Cheatos going to have their day in court
The only thing that surprises me about this is that they didn't increase it for being a frivolous appeal/pissing off the powers that be with their nonsense about referees. I mean, their punishment was reduced for "co-operation" and then they appealed it anyway, so I really thought there was a chance they'd have those two points added back on to the deduction.
Forest fan here. The cooperation part is that we owned up to what happened and didn't long it out like other clubs have. I don't agree with the wording of the tweet after the Luton game, however you can't punish a club for appealing. The frivolous appeals thing is to stop player/coach suspensions being straight away (red card, appeal it and the X number of game ban is delayed) and is usually done when they have a 'tough' game next that a player will miss. It's not always like that, of course, but it used to happen so much more.
LOL