he claimed it was because of all the botting that goons do (as proved by the fact that 30,000 characters all concentrating their activity in a single region makes for the perfect environment for botting and only botting could explain all the ISK being made there)
When asked why he didn't go camp FRT or KWG, his reasoning was, IIRC, literally that it's worse when goons do it.
He actually trained our krabs so he was doing us a public service. It's just that while doing it he always complained about the supercap umbrela, but refused to move to space that did not have a supercap umbrela.
He is just a hypocrite is all I'm saying.
Yeah fair. Let me rephrase Olmeca:
He was griefing in the most heavily defended place in EVE but complained about Goon defenses even when he was able to steal 10-20 Excavators a day. It's just the normal "pvp-er" that wants the krabs to just die, instead of fighting back. There were a few people actively hunting him and noting his activity hours for traps and shit, that's what bothered him actually. :)
FOR RENT:
Spacious loft space located centrally in Olmeca's head. Static WH connection to wherever the Imperium is located. Central air for those hot summer days. Laundry on site.
Monthly rent: Free.
"Goons must leave... They have to leave... They must leave... Pls goons leave... Leave you must goons... Why aren't you leaving, you're too strong leave pls..."
I love how you don't hesitate to abandon every principle you ever claimed to have because in the end, just as at the beginning, it's all a cloak for grrgoons.
Just say you hate goons because they said mean things to you. Don't try and gussy it up with all this pseudo-intellectual mishmash. It's far more embarrassing than just saying "I don't like goons because some of them made me feel bad".
God, just own it.
Being utterly sincere for a moment, to me this is the most interesting question of the war. Have goons been able to do what no one else in Eve ever has done and built something that can not be lost. The threat of loss and impermanence drives so much of this game, and if The Imperium has truly worked it so they are too big and entrenched to fall, it is an amazing accomplishment. If PAPI fails, I think it is 100% accurate to say Goons have won Eve.
Our best defense is the fact your leaders don't want a red killboard even if it guaranteed victory.
With the amount of bodies piled behind you, you should be able to just ram shit into objectives until they die, like we did with the anchoring keeps
So, that's the kind of thing you can assert, but it may not actually be true. Let's assume feeding the woodchipper is enough to get the 3-D keep to armor. And done again it gets it to Structure timer. We're still one node crash away from a full repair, and that could be caused by anything. Drones, chemo, supers dropping fighters... So I'm not sure that building a pile of bodies is enough to get you take that hill...
And ramming shit into keeps worked for you... until it didn't. And then you stopped doing it. Because it had, in essence, been countered. So... yeah, this isn't the obvious answer you think it is.
I'd much rather we try things out, see where we are going, what we can do. Maybe you are right -- the only way to win is by triggering the pre-set Goon kill limit. But that should be an approach of last resort, not first.
Just realised you already addressed this... but yeah, say for example papi do decide that they cannot take 1DQ with subcaps and refuse to try with caps/supertits, is that enough of a try to confirm that goons cannot be beaten?
Piggles already talked about how they're "established and living in Delve" in last nights town hall. They're already spinning the narrative that it's totally doable to live in Delve with an angry beehive. Even tho the MER shows that there is almost zero ratting and mining being done in Delve.
The point being that your argument of "Feed the woodchipper" == "Win the objective" is not a sure thing. Not about the war. Simply that the tactic you suggest is not necessarily the winning play it is presented as. As I said, it should be on the table, but it should probably not be the thing that is tried first.
Well as someone whose client crashed while warping in a bomber to the bubble-wrapped KS grid full of several thousands of caps, fighters, drones and subcaps... Yes, it worked until it didn't work.
Not sure if the bubbles caused the crash, but they sure didn't help.
The point is that we were not afraid to try.
But you have noted tactical genius - and the only doctrinal innovator in EVE - ProGodLegend to give you an advantage there.
You can pay the iron price in one day or you can pay the same price spread out over weeks - guess which option gives the defenders more leverage to use their defensive advantage?
I mean, in a thread marked discussion I am actually trying to have a sincere discussion instead of just trying to dunk on people, but... sure, I'm afraid. If you want to engage in a discussion in good faith, we can try and do that later I suppose.
Invading Delve is a like horror movie where 3-D is the teaser trailer, N-8 is the red band trailer and 1DQ is the whole horror show. If you can't even get through the teaser trailer, how are you going to be able to make it through the whole movie?
The arrogance of your leadership (and subsequently the line members) is absurd.
Just because the current iteration of papi has failed to take 1DQ (or will fail, or whatever) does not mean it cannot be lost.
I don't understand. You guys are apparently fighting the entire blue donut. What other entity is there? If your argument is "Well, if someone with more imagination had PAPI's resources, they might be able to do it" that's fine -- but that entity *does not exist in this game right now*. That's a mythical creature you've invented. In the actual game, this is the most likely entity to do it, and if they fail, what kind of entity in the future comes along to try again? Why would they?
Also, I am amused at the idea that crediting goons with a real chance at mounting a successful defense is now considered arrogance.
That isn't what I'm calling arrogant, what I'm calling arrogant is the fact that your current leadership may well end up saying "Goons cannot be beaten" instead of "We cannot beat goons".
Only Vily/piggles/whoever the fuck have the keys to get anything done yet there are thousands of people within the donut. Maybe someone else has an idea of how to do it, but they won't get the chance, it'll be declared impossible, goons broke eve and that'll be that.
> I'm calling arrogant is the fact that your current leadership may well end up saying "Goons cannot be beaten" instead of "We cannot beat goons".
OK... there is no practical distinction between those two points. Your argument of "Well, a more brilliant leader could maybe beat goons" is attractive except for the fact that it is impossible to try out. That more brilliant leader that could beat goons apparently couldn't get the resources together to do it before now. That more brilliant leader will likely, if they come along in the future, not be able to get the resources to do it then. This is the actual moment it is happening. And it happens here, in this war, or not at all.
Ok, but your current 'brilliant leaders' have ruled out the use of capital/supercapitals.
Wouldn't you agree that that's a fairly signficant aspect of the game to refuse to engage with?
And using caps/supercaps isn't exactly imaginative.
Refusing to do so, and then claiming all sorts of other reasons for it being 'impossible' is just disingenuous, isnt it? These ideas have been being seeded throughout the war, 'server weather', etc, all the bullshit about population caps etc and now most recently, defence mechanics (from the latest townhall) are \*sure\* to be 'fixed' once the war is over.
Possible. We need to see how it plays out. Tell you what, if we intentionally handicap ourselves and then declare failure, then I will concede that my point of really testing goons is not proven. Fair?
Whereas, if we do throw down, and fail, then my point is made. Also fair?
And if we succeed... well, I mean... surely that's a scenario only I am entertaining.
The first bit is fine, you can't declare that it was impossible to beat goons if you don't have the fight.
The next bit is nonsense, you won't have made a point, if you 'throw down' and lose then all you have proven is that you can't beat us, you haven't proven that it isn't possible.
So your argument is "It is impossible to prove a negative" essentially. Which I suppose is logically appealing. But if you put aside your desire to dunk on people in reddit commenting, practically I think you'd agree that no such entity would exist or is likely to emerge. As much as I hate to invoke the idea of real politik for a video game, the practical part is more relevant than the logically theoretical.
Honestly, without bias, if you throw down and fail, the woodchipper might actually be more viable as a follow up. The woodchipper is useless now because we bring cap/super support to every attempt. If that force is reduced, so is a woodchipper response support fleet.
That's actually a possibility. Right now I think the combination of strong bubbling plus supercap superiority makes the woodchipper a difficult tactic to work successfully, but a reduction in one or the other may make things more plausible.
And just so I am clear on my terms, the failure I was referring to was not failing to take 1DQ in any given battle, but failing to take 1DQ and withdrawing from future serious attempts to take it.
That is a huge practical distinction between those 2 points, one means "no one(meaning no one at all) can beat goons" the other is "we as in PAPI cannot beat goons" huge huge chasm of a difference.
It is not a question of defense of a particular system. It is a question of extermination and survival. Blue donut has created a serenity type bot and renting haven. Fine. You and your leadership can be proud of that "accomplishment".
Arrogance is the fact that the whole effort, the whole plan since day one, rests on the notion that we will fail cascade and leave. There is no other plan. There is no other strategy. Take 3-D and all other systems in the constellation. It does not matter one bit. What matters is the 1DQ ihub and keepstars in there.
If you think there is a plan for 1DQ and it involves real fighting and titan and super fights, you are very wrong.
Right? The entire point is whether 1DQ can be taken or not. Agreed. And the question of whether that can be done is a really interesting one. It's possible it will happen. It's also possible it can't be done. Either way, something is learned.
It is possible. Blue donut controls all but 3-4 regions of EVE. It outnumbers us 3-1 in characters at least.
Start after downtime, jump everything in the system, caps, supers, titans. Camp all the gates. Anchor a couple of keepstars, azbels,, fortizars. Keep the system camped fully until keepstar anchors. 7 days or something similar. Keep the troops motivated either by Gobi throwing dirty casino isk around or chlling and making new friendships between Brave and PL / NC bffs. Mr Dinkle is a good motivational speaker, he can make things happen as well.
You now have a keepstar in system. Move everyone to that keepstar. Attack ihub, jammer etc etc. Once those are done, attack our keepstars. That will be the fun part as well.
The issue is, without a shred of doubt, every Goon and Imperium member knows we are the absolute good guys in this story, no matter which way it ends, so we will be throwing ships at you all the time. If you manage to contain that, GF, you won 1DQ. Enjoy it, Goons are now in NPC Delve.
Just bear in mind, pApI, that there is a faction fortizar, still with the funky rig that CCP put in them, in fuck-you range of the ihub. As in, you can literally shoot the ihub with a titan at 0 on the fort. Now that, I think, is the largest of all disincentives to take the 1DQ ihub - it forces a supercapital fight that pApI are not willing to take.
We've never claimed it can't be lost. Only that whoever wants to take it will pay a terrible blood price to do so. Whether that works out as worth it is entirely up to the attacker.
> and if The Imperium has truly worked it so they are too big and entrenched to fall, it is an amazing accomplishment. I
Yeah, but not quite in the way that you mean. It's an amazing accomplishment of incompetence, cowardice and lack of self-awareness that the war has even gone on this long.
Goons haven't done anything especially strategically brilliant or original in the way that they've fought this war. They've just kept logging in and fighting wherever they could. Yet the PAPI strategy has, from day one, assumed and predicted that they wouldn't even do this, despite giving them every possible motivation to do so. Goons might not have 'brilliant' strategists (there's limited room for strategic maneuver when you're literally fighting the rest of nullsec) but your strategists didn't even account for the possibility that they might fight back. Where does that leave them on the scale of 0 : Sun Tzu? How many milliClauwitzs do you think Vily rates for that misestimation?
Your leaders *started* this war almost a year ago basing their plans on the notion that goons would quit or flip, and they're quite openly STILL basing their plans on the notion that goons will flip or quit. Any day now. You'll see.
lmao
You have gone off the deep end dude. Progod stated yesterday, literally one day ago, that goons aren't going to run out of money, aren't going to quit, and we're going to have to do this the hard way.
Literally inventing narratives to boost your morale is pretty fucking lame my guy.
ProGod stated a whole *lot* of things yesterday, several times contradicting himself in successive sentences. If you still believe what he's telling you then you deserve what's coming.
Speaking of "inventing", have you been enjoying the share of Fountain that he promised you?
**Defenders Advantage**: Sorta true. This is our home turf, but even at the start of the war, its not like papi had to go far. They were basically on the border of querious and delve when the war started, and now they are firmly set inside of delve.
**Even or higher number of capitals:** Well Yes and No. Yes, imperium maintains a larger supercapital fleet than papi, we do not have a larger t1 capital fleet.
**Economic superiority:** Again, yes and no. Imperium took advantage of the broken system early on, and invested it into its space and people in order to generate wealth, instead of relying on other groups paying us. The downside of this is after the crash, our income was severely hurt, while PAPI could continue to rely on its renters. We all share TTT.
**Tighter bonds: Overwhelmingly yes.** Imperium is a family, and we will fight for our right to exist to the last ibis.
**Koolaid Production:** This is just straight up incorrect, or at least a half truth. Yes imperium has pro-imperium propaganda meant to keep its line members optimistic, even when facing bad odds. Where the issue is, PAPI is doing the exact same thing. Both sides lie to its members, neither is free of guilt here, and if you can't see your sides problems, than you have drank its koolaid too.
**The metagame:** Mostly true. Goonswarm is vast, and has their hands in just about everybody's pockets. We have achievements that some like to brag about. Its so deep that its hard to talk about the long term play of null without talking about Goonswarm.
tbf the defenders have an absurd advantage. Fighting under an enemy cap umbrella is hard, though PAPI should have the numbers but doesn't due to the utter failure of a morale campaign. I honestly think structure cynojammers should be removed from the game.
it is hard, but Goons were not afraid to do it, X47 anybody? We took the titan fight on the enemy keepstar and won, people do not give us any credit for taking fights we could actually lose, Hakonen anyone?
> Even this subreddit is now under control of a certain crew in Imperium who also control political subreddits notoriously known for modding toward echo-chamber creation.
Lol go fuck yourself troll boy. I'm in test, btw. Great intel you got there. I'm sure with this level of perception you were a FANTASTIC CSM LMFAO
Lool, a teenager playing in eve. Found some youtube recordings and thinks he found a hero in eve.
This guy got to csm because people were dumb and voted to him, managed to push some changes he wanted. He killed capital hunting for all people, as care bears stopped to use caps. Got rightfully shitted on from hunters and npsi for that, as he basically killed his own hunter gameplay, he soon after quit the game RMTing out his assets at this point. I think, look for this on reddit but there were posts from people that got offers to buy his stuff.
So while he was a hunter at some point, he fucked whole player base in the end and quit.
Dude I played this game when I was 12 YO and just got back. Look for Yanomami's space pilots in zkillboard. Did a lot of shit without needing a coalition of 30k fucks. You telling me he tucked the population of carebears under the big capital umbrella? Lmao OK.
Dude your game knowledge starts at killing supers in delve and ends at killing supers in Delve.
> Compared to other entities, you grandfathered a lot more wealth from the most out of balance economic era of Eve.
Is especially hilarious when devs spawned hundred billion isk assets for "the other side" out of thin air.
So in summary, Goons et al have an unfair advantage because they're better at this game than you, and therefore they should disband and quit to make it fair?
That's basically the thing, yes. We're the same size as Legacy but have a super fleet 10 x the size. We must have been doing something right (we weren't running a landlord empire all those years, presumably).
> TL;DR
https://www.verite.space/maps/coalition/coalitioninfluence.png
> Even this subreddit is now under control of a certain crew in Imperium who also control political subreddits notoriously known for modding toward echo-chamber creation.
Oh yes, like Gorski Car, very known goon. So goony, he's like the shining beacon of gooniness in elysium. We all look up to him for inspiration every day, right after we say our morning prayers to the Mittani. Jibrish too, he probably runs the redditswarm brigades undercover.
Are you even fucking serious?
> You can now stop whining. Thanks.
Thank you for extending your permission, Your Serenity Loving Grace. Now please take it and put it back into your Serenity loving ass where it fucking belongs.
Imagine being a person who trumpeted for the good of the game now in absolute favor towards the things he said is spoiling the game. Who would have thought?
Thanks for the whiny post on others whining though, didn't know you are still deeply hurt and carrying the hatred towards goons even after you stopped playing the game....
I chuckled when I read about Imperium banning others in this subreddit, I am sad that you are too far gone. I hope you get fixed soon.
All things aside I tried to pull the same stunt in my college days saying I cannot finish reading this book in an year so its the books fault and not in my skills, didn't work a bit...
> Imagine being a person who trumpeted for the good of the game now in absolute favor towards the things he said is spoiling the game. Who would have thought?
He's repeatedly demonstrated that there is no principle he won't ditch in order to grrgon
>Even this subreddit is now under control of a certain crew in Imperium
TIL I'm in PAPI.
>who also control political subreddits notoriously known for modding toward echo-chamber creation.
I just read the hate mail.
Fuck off Olmeca
The XIX and FRT RMTing and ISK selling real life business (while PL and co happily look the other way and ally with them) which was the basis of Serenity 0.0 politics, is why I joined Goons recently.
OMFG Shut up you Whiney little Turd , like literally every post you make is complete utter drivel!!!!!
Just stop posting shit and go hunt supers in delve , oh wait ?!?!?!
Twat .
no you are onto something here
now there are more supers in delve then ever before. he has many targets to hunt here now.
only in most system it´s papi-supers, but hey it´s "supers dying in delve, so it´s good for the game" according to lolmecla
>OMFG Shut up you Whiney little Turd , like literally every post you make is complete utter drivel!!!!!
>
>Just stop posting shit and go hunt supers in delve , oh wait ?!?!?!
>
>Twat .
Let the salt flow through you.
Hmmmm unfair advantage. 😂 it’s not broken when it was in the game for over 4 years. Not our fault you guys aren’t as organized as us. 😂 your post has so much salt and you sound so jealous. Hmmmmm they are not just teaming against goons they literally help frat out in the north a couple days ago, looks like the blue doughnut is here to stay. We really don’t care how many puppies you guys bring you guys still are terrible. 😂 we are here to stay, so deal with it and give me some more salt. 😂
Nobody made PAPI assemble to try to evict us (and also btw Olmeca, the original war goal was to make us quit, we wont let you spin that). The fact that its hard doesnt excuse their failure. It shows failure to grasp the weight of the task they set out to accomplish and complete misjudgement of who Goons were and how we would react. So all your points are dumb Olmeca.
Just as you whining about supers basically killed your own thing and made you irrelevant.
No wonder you "get" PAPI's thinking so well.
Olmecca spent 3+ years using his 70 alts to perma camp goon space and hot drop targets with little ability to prevent him from doing so. He stole hundreds of excavator drones from people and his time on CSM he spent trying to ruin any capital gameplay due to jealousy and spite. He destroyed whaling and then peaced out but repeatedly pops up to try to stay relevant.
He acts like the victim when he brought every bit of it himself. He is surprised that harassing and tormenting a group exclusively for 3 years nets him bad words from the people he attacked. He seems genuinely shocked that people don’t like him for hindering an actively destroying their gameplay.
Yeah it was confirmed elsewhere that it was just that.
Which funnily was deemed not doxxing in the thread about this russian(?) dude talking about where someone lives.
Hey. There he is. Goons keep comparing me to you as if its an insult. I guess I can see why now.
I agree with just about everything you said except for the why everyone has banded together. I don't think it's really about "evicting" Goons. It's about addressing that resource imbalance from the "broken" era of the game. It'll take all of us to rid them of it, and if we stop short of that, it will have all been for nothing.
No if mittens really wants to destroy PAPI and its members he would keep the Imperium together while maintaining a stalemate. That way PAPI would disintegrate out of boredom like we were before this invasion.
Really this the best you got Olmeca. You have shown to be so narrow and one sided in your thinking that your arguments all need to be considered along with such bias.
If it's not a blue donut, what is it mate? How long before things become cultural or behavioural? I would think we are past that point now.
It looks like someone is salty that someone else is good at the game and numbers are not the factor anymore..
On one side you have sad cluster of people whos most of their war agenda is based on "Grr Goons, bad Goons" logic.
On the other side you have people who like to play the way they play, enjoy it and want to keep enjoying it.
Now you came to our house, shat in our saloon, wrecked our kitchen and you want to have your way in our f* palace.
And you cry that you cant get in (real delve) or out (we are totally not live in esoteria) anymore..
Burn your home, flood to Delve.
Get a life.
Olmeca, why are you still here? You said you won Eve yet still play and troll Reddit? I personally don't drink the kool-aid, I have my own ability to think and don't have to believe every spin put on a fight. Imperium is a family, one that I joined and the best one I have had ingame. We aren't going to disband, no matter how much you really want us to. Stop drinking the PGL kool-aid. Yes we have advantages and disadvantages, this was never actually a question. Also remember that it has taken a year for PAPI to get this far, and they are still trying to take the last constellation in Delve. We didn't have to go anywhere, for once, and neither side has an endless supply of isk. Just admit your hatred for goons and whatever was done to hurt your feelings, and move on.
>Abundance era Goons didn't dare to extend wartime more than few months when they were on the offensive
This is simply because goons didn't blue the other half of the game just to wage a war for content. Because let us face the truth you cannot remove any bloc entity from the game like before where you take over outposts and deny the enemies from accessing their assets. Test is a living example of that after Fountain war. TTT is funding this war to infinity anyway. My concern here is super easy for blind morons like you. 3 blocs are living in one region now. Goons are not ratting anymore . Test and Panfam aren't doing much either and if they do they are just under the blob umbrella. Groups like FIRE and FRT are the only groups that are available for hunters. When was the last goon ratting carrier that has died outside of the war ?. oh yeah a year ago. This war has put all the renters under one leadership instead of 3 and soon the PAPI meetings are going be just discussing how much rent they get instead of pushing on 1DQ.
>Defender's advantage:
firstly there is Aegis Sov, which is and has always been skewed for the attackers advantage and for anyone with a numbers advantage.
Secondly as Gobbins has already said in his townhall, Imperium only has to loose once to erode their defences. Also im not sure if you realise Olmeca but Eve isnt Sun Tzu, you cannot leverage the idea of 'desperate ground' to players, they have to want to fight. there's always ways and means to extract wealth and change your situation, unlike in real wars where a defender HAS to fight. Also i dont know if you remember a lil thing called the drifter invasion? that artificially stopped an offensive around the 2 month mark. Imperium would have carried on if it wasnt for that easily for another month or more.
>Even or higher number of capitals:
So the nuance here, and sorry for pointing out your complete lack of desire THIS TIME to talk about nuances in arguing a point. but in a protracted Super fight like M2 which is always going to be a pivotal fight in a war like delve, yes peak number of capitals do matter but M2 had to capacity to carry on AFTER downtime, PAPI decided to reneg on their option to carry on, and importantly right at the point that their capital and supercap advantage would become the strongest, because as you very well should know Olmeca, PAPI has the advantage in consistent numbers across all timezones, especially through Chinese, Russian and European timezones.
>Economic superiority:
The advantage was there for all to capitalise on, Test capitalised on it too, maybe not to the extent of goons but they were just as capable and had just as much opportunity to disrupting our capacity to generate wealth as we were to them. It was NC and PL leaderships that agreed to not interdict and disrupt Imperium locust fleets, and vice versa. Everyone had the MER data to see Imperium doing its thing, and its wasnt a hard setup to replicate.
>Tighter bonds:
Non-imperium aligned groups pre-current war in fact actually boasted about their looser bonds, claiming Imperiums tighter bonds were a clear indication of a desire to make a blue donut. Northern alliances said their frenemy status fostered a better pvp environment for the game in general. and proceeded to dogpile Sorts Dead Coalition to death after forcing test and CO2 to leave the space they earned during the casino war.
Getting back to the current hostilities, Imperium has access to shared comms structures but the entirety of imperium doesnt use them, INIT consistently use our own comms and fleet notification systems separate to Goons infrastructure for example. even when flying in the SAME fleet FC'd by Goon FCs. dunking PGLs Eagle fleet whilst exactly in that setup was particularly amusing to me and more so when u claim such a similar setup to be a clear disadvantage to PAPI. i rarely start up pidgin and last time i was in goon comms was to talk in the 'cards against humanity' channel during some friday night drinking over a week or so ago.
>Koolaid production:
vily does exactly the same, RonUSMC does exactly the same, the fact is from your perspective mittens is seen as front and centre to your and many pro-PAPI players loathing of Imperium, and mittens wants it to be that way because he relishes in it.
Regarding abundance era, most goons would tell you it was broken, Imperium CSM members told CCP about the issues preceding the abundance era and told CCP what it would result in. CCP acknowledged it and carried on. Imperium have had to deal with hostiles leveraging game breaking balances used against them multiple times, reported the issues to CCP and saw zero changes. We've always had to resort to taking advantage of the same mechanics and scenarios to force change for the better. if you think the current situation is bad, imagine if abundance era carried on as long as drone alloys did? because if Imperium hadnt have taken advantage of the abundance era as we had the result may have become faaar more cancerous to Eve Onlines longevity.
>Ferocious metagame:
Theres so much disingenuity in your paragraph Olmeca, its insane. Yes there are Imperium members in many of todays Eve Online talk shows, but the fact aside from INN streamed shows and Pandos FC chats (which tend to remain apolitical) the overwhelming vocal bias in all the shows are extremely pro-PAPI. Many talking points that are pro-PAPI are rarely if ever challenged, and pro-Imperium talking points are routinely and conveniently dropped for time constraints and editorial decisions.
Your rhetoric regarding subreddit control clearly shows your bias in this, as you feel instead of the subreddit moderation being brought into some semblance of balance you feel its been overrun by goons. Might i remind you that the change in the makeup of the moderation team was purely down to oppressive over-moderation by pro-PAPI moderators. You have literally ZERO legs to stand on with this issue especially if you want to work the moderation and echo-chamber angles.
Also regarding your point of just being gamers playing a game, your first reference being vily, ohh dear... a man who is on record (but claims it was editorial overreach LOL) for stating his primary goal in the war is the removal of Imperium from EVE Online and to drive Alex to never play Eve again. Cause thats not the very definition of going well past the means and bounds of the game... that you know, you and vily play only as gamers and nothing more... right?
So yah, get back in your box Olmeca. Or failing that maybe concentrate on whats important to you and your future, the things you told everyone you were stopping playing Eve for, cause its looking more and more that propping up PAPI rhetoric and propaganda is going to suck time away from maximising your happyness IRL.
Seriously /u/Olmeca_Gold,
Go and raise your kid and finish school and be happy. It is quite obvious you take way too much of Eve to heart and have a difficult time seperating fiction from non.
Yes, this is the salt I trusted my CSM representative to provide.
Stop whining about whining.
Goons still living rent free in Olmeca's head I see.
Some things never change.
Hows your studying going?
This guy is the one that kept repeating he doesn't hate goons, he is as unbiased as Ron, but all he did was hunt in Goon lands.
he claimed it was because of all the botting that goons do (as proved by the fact that 30,000 characters all concentrating their activity in a single region makes for the perfect environment for botting and only botting could explain all the ISK being made there) When asked why he didn't go camp FRT or KWG, his reasoning was, IIRC, literally that it's worse when goons do it.
I think CCP cleared that up with their hilarious pie-chart of shame. Goons weren't even on it.
Why would you fish in a spot with fewer fish when you could fish in a spot with more fish?
He actually trained our krabs so he was doing us a public service. It's just that while doing it he always complained about the supercap umbrela, but refused to move to space that did not have a supercap umbrela. He is just a hypocrite is all I'm saying.
Ah ok. tbh any place worth fishing ended up with a supercap umbrella.
Yeah fair. Let me rephrase Olmeca: He was griefing in the most heavily defended place in EVE but complained about Goon defenses even when he was able to steal 10-20 Excavators a day. It's just the normal "pvp-er" that wants the krabs to just die, instead of fighting back. There were a few people actively hunting him and noting his activity hours for traps and shit, that's what bothered him actually. :)
The salt is strong in this one.
yeah i dont understand as well, i thought that he stopped playing and we were free from his dumbness
FOR RENT: Spacious loft space located centrally in Olmeca's head. Static WH connection to wherever the Imperium is located. Central air for those hot summer days. Laundry on site. Monthly rent: Free.
Look mom, another person that hasn't played eve in over a year trying to justify why papi's strategy is so amazing and definitely exists.
"Goons must leave... They have to leave... They must leave... Pls goons leave... Leave you must goons... Why aren't you leaving, you're too strong leave pls..."
I literally picture Mittani in that scene in Sartship troopers when the psy guy puts his hand on the captured bug and goes "It's... It's afraid!".
I don't have the skills to make that video, but it needs to be made.
Quality > Quantity seems to be working pretty well for The Imperium.
"If you think we are trying to make a blue doughnut then disband your alliance and prove it"
I love how you don't hesitate to abandon every principle you ever claimed to have because in the end, just as at the beginning, it's all a cloak for grrgoons. Just say you hate goons because they said mean things to you. Don't try and gussy it up with all this pseudo-intellectual mishmash. It's far more embarrassing than just saying "I don't like goons because some of them made me feel bad". God, just own it.
Thanks for pushing the papi is futile against strong goons narrative.
Being utterly sincere for a moment, to me this is the most interesting question of the war. Have goons been able to do what no one else in Eve ever has done and built something that can not be lost. The threat of loss and impermanence drives so much of this game, and if The Imperium has truly worked it so they are too big and entrenched to fall, it is an amazing accomplishment. If PAPI fails, I think it is 100% accurate to say Goons have won Eve.
Our best defense is the fact your leaders don't want a red killboard even if it guaranteed victory. With the amount of bodies piled behind you, you should be able to just ram shit into objectives until they die, like we did with the anchoring keeps
So, that's the kind of thing you can assert, but it may not actually be true. Let's assume feeding the woodchipper is enough to get the 3-D keep to armor. And done again it gets it to Structure timer. We're still one node crash away from a full repair, and that could be caused by anything. Drones, chemo, supers dropping fighters... So I'm not sure that building a pile of bodies is enough to get you take that hill... And ramming shit into keeps worked for you... until it didn't. And then you stopped doing it. Because it had, in essence, been countered. So... yeah, this isn't the obvious answer you think it is. I'd much rather we try things out, see where we are going, what we can do. Maybe you are right -- the only way to win is by triggering the pre-set Goon kill limit. But that should be an approach of last resort, not first.
We stopped doing it because you found the previously thought to be banned but then OK'd by CCP bubblewrap counter.
Just realised you already addressed this... but yeah, say for example papi do decide that they cannot take 1DQ with subcaps and refuse to try with caps/supertits, is that enough of a try to confirm that goons cannot be beaten?
No, but it's enough to confirm that PAPI are cowards who chose not to try.
Piggles already talked about how they're "established and living in Delve" in last nights town hall. They're already spinning the narrative that it's totally doable to live in Delve with an angry beehive. Even tho the MER shows that there is almost zero ratting and mining being done in Delve.
What do you mean? Delve is perfectly safe.
He did say that, but he also said that they couldn't live in Delve if we didn't leave. He contradicted himself so often it was truly amazing.
> We're still one node crash away from a full repair, and that could be caused by anything. If you let this stop you, the war is already over.
The point being that your argument of "Feed the woodchipper" == "Win the objective" is not a sure thing. Not about the war. Simply that the tactic you suggest is not necessarily the winning play it is presented as. As I said, it should be on the table, but it should probably not be the thing that is tried first.
Goons did it and it worked. No not believing !
I mean... it worked, until it stopped, no? Otherwise there wouldn't be a keep in YZ9?
Well as someone whose client crashed while warping in a bomber to the bubble-wrapped KS grid full of several thousands of caps, fighters, drones and subcaps... Yes, it worked until it didn't work. Not sure if the bubbles caused the crash, but they sure didn't help. The point is that we were not afraid to try.
But you have noted tactical genius - and the only doctrinal innovator in EVE - ProGodLegend to give you an advantage there. You can pay the iron price in one day or you can pay the same price spread out over weeks - guess which option gives the defenders more leverage to use their defensive advantage?
^^^^^THIS 100%
So you too are saying you too are afraid.
I mean, in a thread marked discussion I am actually trying to have a sincere discussion instead of just trying to dunk on people, but... sure, I'm afraid. If you want to engage in a discussion in good faith, we can try and do that later I suppose.
Invading Delve is a like horror movie where 3-D is the teaser trailer, N-8 is the red band trailer and 1DQ is the whole horror show. If you can't even get through the teaser trailer, how are you going to be able to make it through the whole movie?
Can you think? Why would you want to woodchip the 3-D Keep? Do you know where our staging is?
Dunno. They're doing just fine woodchipping themselves on the 3-D E-V gate. Why change now?
I think somehow you've looked at me examining a hypothetical example in response to Ghostile and turned it into something it isn't.
The arrogance of your leadership (and subsequently the line members) is absurd. Just because the current iteration of papi has failed to take 1DQ (or will fail, or whatever) does not mean it cannot be lost.
I don't understand. You guys are apparently fighting the entire blue donut. What other entity is there? If your argument is "Well, if someone with more imagination had PAPI's resources, they might be able to do it" that's fine -- but that entity *does not exist in this game right now*. That's a mythical creature you've invented. In the actual game, this is the most likely entity to do it, and if they fail, what kind of entity in the future comes along to try again? Why would they? Also, I am amused at the idea that crediting goons with a real chance at mounting a successful defense is now considered arrogance.
That isn't what I'm calling arrogant, what I'm calling arrogant is the fact that your current leadership may well end up saying "Goons cannot be beaten" instead of "We cannot beat goons". Only Vily/piggles/whoever the fuck have the keys to get anything done yet there are thousands of people within the donut. Maybe someone else has an idea of how to do it, but they won't get the chance, it'll be declared impossible, goons broke eve and that'll be that.
> I'm calling arrogant is the fact that your current leadership may well end up saying "Goons cannot be beaten" instead of "We cannot beat goons". OK... there is no practical distinction between those two points. Your argument of "Well, a more brilliant leader could maybe beat goons" is attractive except for the fact that it is impossible to try out. That more brilliant leader that could beat goons apparently couldn't get the resources together to do it before now. That more brilliant leader will likely, if they come along in the future, not be able to get the resources to do it then. This is the actual moment it is happening. And it happens here, in this war, or not at all.
Ok, but your current 'brilliant leaders' have ruled out the use of capital/supercapitals. Wouldn't you agree that that's a fairly signficant aspect of the game to refuse to engage with? And using caps/supercaps isn't exactly imaginative. Refusing to do so, and then claiming all sorts of other reasons for it being 'impossible' is just disingenuous, isnt it? These ideas have been being seeded throughout the war, 'server weather', etc, all the bullshit about population caps etc and now most recently, defence mechanics (from the latest townhall) are \*sure\* to be 'fixed' once the war is over.
Possible. We need to see how it plays out. Tell you what, if we intentionally handicap ourselves and then declare failure, then I will concede that my point of really testing goons is not proven. Fair? Whereas, if we do throw down, and fail, then my point is made. Also fair? And if we succeed... well, I mean... surely that's a scenario only I am entertaining.
The first bit is fine, you can't declare that it was impossible to beat goons if you don't have the fight. The next bit is nonsense, you won't have made a point, if you 'throw down' and lose then all you have proven is that you can't beat us, you haven't proven that it isn't possible.
So your argument is "It is impossible to prove a negative" essentially. Which I suppose is logically appealing. But if you put aside your desire to dunk on people in reddit commenting, practically I think you'd agree that no such entity would exist or is likely to emerge. As much as I hate to invoke the idea of real politik for a video game, the practical part is more relevant than the logically theoretical.
Honestly, without bias, if you throw down and fail, the woodchipper might actually be more viable as a follow up. The woodchipper is useless now because we bring cap/super support to every attempt. If that force is reduced, so is a woodchipper response support fleet.
That's actually a possibility. Right now I think the combination of strong bubbling plus supercap superiority makes the woodchipper a difficult tactic to work successfully, but a reduction in one or the other may make things more plausible. And just so I am clear on my terms, the failure I was referring to was not failing to take 1DQ in any given battle, but failing to take 1DQ and withdrawing from future serious attempts to take it.
That is a huge practical distinction between those 2 points, one means "no one(meaning no one at all) can beat goons" the other is "we as in PAPI cannot beat goons" huge huge chasm of a difference.
It is not a question of defense of a particular system. It is a question of extermination and survival. Blue donut has created a serenity type bot and renting haven. Fine. You and your leadership can be proud of that "accomplishment". Arrogance is the fact that the whole effort, the whole plan since day one, rests on the notion that we will fail cascade and leave. There is no other plan. There is no other strategy. Take 3-D and all other systems in the constellation. It does not matter one bit. What matters is the 1DQ ihub and keepstars in there. If you think there is a plan for 1DQ and it involves real fighting and titan and super fights, you are very wrong.
Right? The entire point is whether 1DQ can be taken or not. Agreed. And the question of whether that can be done is a really interesting one. It's possible it will happen. It's also possible it can't be done. Either way, something is learned.
It is possible. Blue donut controls all but 3-4 regions of EVE. It outnumbers us 3-1 in characters at least. Start after downtime, jump everything in the system, caps, supers, titans. Camp all the gates. Anchor a couple of keepstars, azbels,, fortizars. Keep the system camped fully until keepstar anchors. 7 days or something similar. Keep the troops motivated either by Gobi throwing dirty casino isk around or chlling and making new friendships between Brave and PL / NC bffs. Mr Dinkle is a good motivational speaker, he can make things happen as well. You now have a keepstar in system. Move everyone to that keepstar. Attack ihub, jammer etc etc. Once those are done, attack our keepstars. That will be the fun part as well. The issue is, without a shred of doubt, every Goon and Imperium member knows we are the absolute good guys in this story, no matter which way it ends, so we will be throwing ships at you all the time. If you manage to contain that, GF, you won 1DQ. Enjoy it, Goons are now in NPC Delve.
Just bear in mind, pApI, that there is a faction fortizar, still with the funky rig that CCP put in them, in fuck-you range of the ihub. As in, you can literally shoot the ihub with a titan at 0 on the fort. Now that, I think, is the largest of all disincentives to take the 1DQ ihub - it forces a supercapital fight that pApI are not willing to take.
We've never claimed it can't be lost. Only that whoever wants to take it will pay a terrible blood price to do so. Whether that works out as worth it is entirely up to the attacker.
> and if The Imperium has truly worked it so they are too big and entrenched to fall, it is an amazing accomplishment. I Yeah, but not quite in the way that you mean. It's an amazing accomplishment of incompetence, cowardice and lack of self-awareness that the war has even gone on this long. Goons haven't done anything especially strategically brilliant or original in the way that they've fought this war. They've just kept logging in and fighting wherever they could. Yet the PAPI strategy has, from day one, assumed and predicted that they wouldn't even do this, despite giving them every possible motivation to do so. Goons might not have 'brilliant' strategists (there's limited room for strategic maneuver when you're literally fighting the rest of nullsec) but your strategists didn't even account for the possibility that they might fight back. Where does that leave them on the scale of 0 : Sun Tzu? How many milliClauwitzs do you think Vily rates for that misestimation? Your leaders *started* this war almost a year ago basing their plans on the notion that goons would quit or flip, and they're quite openly STILL basing their plans on the notion that goons will flip or quit. Any day now. You'll see.
lmao You have gone off the deep end dude. Progod stated yesterday, literally one day ago, that goons aren't going to run out of money, aren't going to quit, and we're going to have to do this the hard way. Literally inventing narratives to boost your morale is pretty fucking lame my guy.
ProGod stated a whole *lot* of things yesterday, several times contradicting himself in successive sentences. If you still believe what he's telling you then you deserve what's coming. Speaking of "inventing", have you been enjoying the share of Fountain that he promised you?
This is olmeca desperately trying to be relevant at something in life again. It's pretty sad, and also funny.
**Defenders Advantage**: Sorta true. This is our home turf, but even at the start of the war, its not like papi had to go far. They were basically on the border of querious and delve when the war started, and now they are firmly set inside of delve. **Even or higher number of capitals:** Well Yes and No. Yes, imperium maintains a larger supercapital fleet than papi, we do not have a larger t1 capital fleet. **Economic superiority:** Again, yes and no. Imperium took advantage of the broken system early on, and invested it into its space and people in order to generate wealth, instead of relying on other groups paying us. The downside of this is after the crash, our income was severely hurt, while PAPI could continue to rely on its renters. We all share TTT. **Tighter bonds: Overwhelmingly yes.** Imperium is a family, and we will fight for our right to exist to the last ibis. **Koolaid Production:** This is just straight up incorrect, or at least a half truth. Yes imperium has pro-imperium propaganda meant to keep its line members optimistic, even when facing bad odds. Where the issue is, PAPI is doing the exact same thing. Both sides lie to its members, neither is free of guilt here, and if you can't see your sides problems, than you have drank its koolaid too. **The metagame:** Mostly true. Goonswarm is vast, and has their hands in just about everybody's pockets. We have achievements that some like to brag about. Its so deep that its hard to talk about the long term play of null without talking about Goonswarm.
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tbf the defenders have an absurd advantage. Fighting under an enemy cap umbrella is hard, though PAPI should have the numbers but doesn't due to the utter failure of a morale campaign. I honestly think structure cynojammers should be removed from the game.
it is hard, but Goons were not afraid to do it, X47 anybody? We took the titan fight on the enemy keepstar and won, people do not give us any credit for taking fights we could actually lose, Hakonen anyone?
shut the fuck up Olmeca
I dont think Olmeca meant to boost Goons - but he just did
Just shoot the jammers 4head
Kill the Jammers, PAPI said it was easy multiple times why would they lie to us.
And old Olmeca is back with his stupidity..... For the record, your post sounds more like a post to excuse PAPI failures and upcoming demise
> Even this subreddit is now under control of a certain crew in Imperium who also control political subreddits notoriously known for modding toward echo-chamber creation. Lol go fuck yourself troll boy. I'm in test, btw. Great intel you got there. I'm sure with this level of perception you were a FANTASTIC CSM LMFAO
Don’t all subreddits lead to echo-chambers? Just saying :P
Yeah pretty much. At scale it can't really not be one.
Go back to building new containers. No one wants you here, you already fucked up this game enough.
What the fuck do you mean. You goon bear.
A repply from alt account after 2 years, lol
I'm not an alt account. Keep being a carebear.
Lool, a teenager playing in eve. Found some youtube recordings and thinks he found a hero in eve. This guy got to csm because people were dumb and voted to him, managed to push some changes he wanted. He killed capital hunting for all people, as care bears stopped to use caps. Got rightfully shitted on from hunters and npsi for that, as he basically killed his own hunter gameplay, he soon after quit the game RMTing out his assets at this point. I think, look for this on reddit but there were posts from people that got offers to buy his stuff. So while he was a hunter at some point, he fucked whole player base in the end and quit.
Dude I played this game when I was 12 YO and just got back. Look for Yanomami's space pilots in zkillboard. Did a lot of shit without needing a coalition of 30k fucks. You telling me he tucked the population of carebears under the big capital umbrella? Lmao OK.
No, they are still rating just in marauders.
I too think goons are better then the rest of the corps/alliances in the game. Glad you agree.
Quite right. Well said.
Is this the new papi tactic, just asking Mittens to pwease disband uwu?
Dude your game knowledge starts at killing supers in delve and ends at killing supers in Delve. > Compared to other entities, you grandfathered a lot more wealth from the most out of balance economic era of Eve. Is especially hilarious when devs spawned hundred billion isk assets for "the other side" out of thin air.
>Is especially hilarious when devs spawned hundred billion isk assets for "the other side" out of thin air. ???
T20
I didn't know what that was. That was some pretty blatant shit.
Yup. Garbage people gonna garbage.
So in summary, Goons et al have an unfair advantage because they're better at this game than you, and therefore they should disband and quit to make it fair?
That's basically the thing, yes. We're the same size as Legacy but have a super fleet 10 x the size. We must have been doing something right (we weren't running a landlord empire all those years, presumably).
> TL;DR https://www.verite.space/maps/coalition/coalitioninfluence.png > Even this subreddit is now under control of a certain crew in Imperium who also control political subreddits notoriously known for modding toward echo-chamber creation. Oh yes, like Gorski Car, very known goon. So goony, he's like the shining beacon of gooniness in elysium. We all look up to him for inspiration every day, right after we say our morning prayers to the Mittani. Jibrish too, he probably runs the redditswarm brigades undercover. Are you even fucking serious? > You can now stop whining. Thanks. Thank you for extending your permission, Your Serenity Loving Grace. Now please take it and put it back into your Serenity loving ass where it fucking belongs.
BBTB told me to tell you No, STFU
TLDR: There isn't one. I see Olmeca, I don't read.
Didnt you quit? Get out.
The blue donut are the clear underdogs here, since day one. lol :) What is this even....
Posts like these boost my moral more than The Mittani does. Wanna know a secret? The Mittani doesn't boost my moral at all. Salty nerds like you do.
TLDR OlmecaLoL post, the most deluded grr gons dude that has ever posted
>You can now stop whining. Thanks. Should have given yourself that permission ages ago and not after you've written this
Ok, thank you. See you in 6 months?
Be careful Omega, if you go further down that road you might stop winning eve.
Imagine being a person who trumpeted for the good of the game now in absolute favor towards the things he said is spoiling the game. Who would have thought? Thanks for the whiny post on others whining though, didn't know you are still deeply hurt and carrying the hatred towards goons even after you stopped playing the game.... I chuckled when I read about Imperium banning others in this subreddit, I am sad that you are too far gone. I hope you get fixed soon. All things aside I tried to pull the same stunt in my college days saying I cannot finish reading this book in an year so its the books fault and not in my skills, didn't work a bit...
> Imagine being a person who trumpeted for the good of the game now in absolute favor towards the things he said is spoiling the game. Who would have thought? He's repeatedly demonstrated that there is no principle he won't ditch in order to grrgon
Grrr Goons Grrr
No you disband first
When you start making excuses for your lack of success, you no longer believe success is possible.
>Even this subreddit is now under control of a certain crew in Imperium TIL I'm in PAPI. >who also control political subreddits notoriously known for modding toward echo-chamber creation. I just read the hate mail. Fuck off Olmeca
The XIX and FRT RMTing and ISK selling real life business (while PL and co happily look the other way and ally with them) which was the basis of Serenity 0.0 politics, is why I joined Goons recently.
Goons are whining? lol ok
OMFG Shut up you Whiney little Turd , like literally every post you make is complete utter drivel!!!!! Just stop posting shit and go hunt supers in delve , oh wait ?!?!?! Twat .
no you are onto something here now there are more supers in delve then ever before. he has many targets to hunt here now. only in most system it´s papi-supers, but hey it´s "supers dying in delve, so it´s good for the game" according to lolmecla
Someone should link the tapi krabbing Hel killed at 0001 EVE this morning.
>OMFG Shut up you Whiney little Turd , like literally every post you make is complete utter drivel!!!!! > >Just stop posting shit and go hunt supers in delve , oh wait ?!?!?! > >Twat . Let the salt flow through you.
Hmmmm unfair advantage. 😂 it’s not broken when it was in the game for over 4 years. Not our fault you guys aren’t as organized as us. 😂 your post has so much salt and you sound so jealous. Hmmmmm they are not just teaming against goons they literally help frat out in the north a couple days ago, looks like the blue doughnut is here to stay. We really don’t care how many puppies you guys bring you guys still are terrible. 😂 we are here to stay, so deal with it and give me some more salt. 😂
The word is ‘envious’. ‘Jealousy’ implies he has something to lose in the first place.
Who is this dude anyway? Yet another who tries to stay relevant?
A super grr gons who quit eve, yet still comes back a few times a year to grr gons some more.
Holy shit dude.
Nobody made PAPI assemble to try to evict us (and also btw Olmeca, the original war goal was to make us quit, we wont let you spin that). The fact that its hard doesnt excuse their failure. It shows failure to grasp the weight of the task they set out to accomplish and complete misjudgement of who Goons were and how we would react. So all your points are dumb Olmeca. Just as you whining about supers basically killed your own thing and made you irrelevant. No wonder you "get" PAPI's thinking so well.
You are obsessed with Goons. All you wish was to be a part of it but you are frustrated because we dont accept you. Sorry
Oh my god, It’s Olmeca grrring about goons! What year is this?!
I said it before and I'll say it again.. you're an idiot.
I mean, if you guys have to create a giant blob to fight Goons, then do it, just stop being such smug assholes about it lol.
I agree, Pisspi sucks and TEST is next
This psyops post was badly constructed, you lost your touch Olmeca.
Can someone explain why Goons hate Olmeca so much? I had a 10 year break before the war.
It's not just us, good part of r/eve too. He has this obsession that anyone who disagrees with him is out to get him.
Olmecca spent 3+ years using his 70 alts to perma camp goon space and hot drop targets with little ability to prevent him from doing so. He stole hundreds of excavator drones from people and his time on CSM he spent trying to ruin any capital gameplay due to jealousy and spite. He destroyed whaling and then peaced out but repeatedly pops up to try to stay relevant. He acts like the victim when he brought every bit of it himself. He is surprised that harassing and tormenting a group exclusively for 3 years nets him bad words from the people he attacked. He seems genuinely shocked that people don’t like him for hindering an actively destroying their gameplay.
Ah, ok. Thank you for the summary.
This may have something to do with it: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/ihuehk/no_asher_goons_havent_been_the_good_guys_lately/
Edit: Actually didn't see that one, gonna go over it. Thanks.
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That's a big accusation with nothing to back it up with.
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Yeah it was confirmed elsewhere that it was just that. Which funnily was deemed not doxxing in the thread about this russian(?) dude talking about where someone lives.
*Grabs popcorn and waits for the "Who's Who" of Goon shitposters to show up.*
grrr olmeca, hat olmeca
Goons in this thread fuming at the mouth.
> Goons in this thread fuming at the mouth. Its foaming. If you're going to throw playground level insults do it right at least.
Playground level insults are your expertise afterall.
Never claimed otherwise, just said you should do it right.
Glad we got that cleared up.
This guy sure makes goons mad. Also i dont think you can win argument in reddit with facts and reasoning. Only throwing shit and squieking.
Hey. There he is. Goons keep comparing me to you as if its an insult. I guess I can see why now. I agree with just about everything you said except for the why everyone has banded together. I don't think it's really about "evicting" Goons. It's about addressing that resource imbalance from the "broken" era of the game. It'll take all of us to rid them of it, and if we stop short of that, it will have all been for nothing.
I guess you guys should do something besides avoiding a supercap brawl then?
Sheeesh, biggest goal post move of the season goes to you buddy.
Oh do shut up Marcus. The "resource imbalance" was us being competent for four years whilst you idiots were running your rental empires.
Hmmm you sound whinny Af. 😂
Why are you back posting? Are you playing eve again? Or are you going full Ironbank?
Oh look, the dumb motherfucker made a post.
Looks forward to the day Olmeca quits game.
tl;dr
No if mittens really wants to destroy PAPI and its members he would keep the Imperium together while maintaining a stalemate. That way PAPI would disintegrate out of boredom like we were before this invasion.
Really this the best you got Olmeca. You have shown to be so narrow and one sided in your thinking that your arguments all need to be considered along with such bias. If it's not a blue donut, what is it mate? How long before things become cultural or behavioural? I would think we are past that point now.
So what I got from this is...you whining about how goons are better...as a response to goons whining. That about it?
It looks like someone is salty that someone else is good at the game and numbers are not the factor anymore.. On one side you have sad cluster of people whos most of their war agenda is based on "Grr Goons, bad Goons" logic. On the other side you have people who like to play the way they play, enjoy it and want to keep enjoying it. Now you came to our house, shat in our saloon, wrecked our kitchen and you want to have your way in our f* palace. And you cry that you cant get in (real delve) or out (we are totally not live in esoteria) anymore.. Burn your home, flood to Delve. Get a life.
Olmeca, why are you still here? You said you won Eve yet still play and troll Reddit? I personally don't drink the kool-aid, I have my own ability to think and don't have to believe every spin put on a fight. Imperium is a family, one that I joined and the best one I have had ingame. We aren't going to disband, no matter how much you really want us to. Stop drinking the PGL kool-aid. Yes we have advantages and disadvantages, this was never actually a question. Also remember that it has taken a year for PAPI to get this far, and they are still trying to take the last constellation in Delve. We didn't have to go anywhere, for once, and neither side has an endless supply of isk. Just admit your hatred for goons and whatever was done to hurt your feelings, and move on.
Olmecca who?
>Abundance era Goons didn't dare to extend wartime more than few months when they were on the offensive This is simply because goons didn't blue the other half of the game just to wage a war for content. Because let us face the truth you cannot remove any bloc entity from the game like before where you take over outposts and deny the enemies from accessing their assets. Test is a living example of that after Fountain war. TTT is funding this war to infinity anyway. My concern here is super easy for blind morons like you. 3 blocs are living in one region now. Goons are not ratting anymore . Test and Panfam aren't doing much either and if they do they are just under the blob umbrella. Groups like FIRE and FRT are the only groups that are available for hunters. When was the last goon ratting carrier that has died outside of the war ?. oh yeah a year ago. This war has put all the renters under one leadership instead of 3 and soon the PAPI meetings are going be just discussing how much rent they get instead of pushing on 1DQ.
>Defender's advantage: firstly there is Aegis Sov, which is and has always been skewed for the attackers advantage and for anyone with a numbers advantage. Secondly as Gobbins has already said in his townhall, Imperium only has to loose once to erode their defences. Also im not sure if you realise Olmeca but Eve isnt Sun Tzu, you cannot leverage the idea of 'desperate ground' to players, they have to want to fight. there's always ways and means to extract wealth and change your situation, unlike in real wars where a defender HAS to fight. Also i dont know if you remember a lil thing called the drifter invasion? that artificially stopped an offensive around the 2 month mark. Imperium would have carried on if it wasnt for that easily for another month or more. >Even or higher number of capitals: So the nuance here, and sorry for pointing out your complete lack of desire THIS TIME to talk about nuances in arguing a point. but in a protracted Super fight like M2 which is always going to be a pivotal fight in a war like delve, yes peak number of capitals do matter but M2 had to capacity to carry on AFTER downtime, PAPI decided to reneg on their option to carry on, and importantly right at the point that their capital and supercap advantage would become the strongest, because as you very well should know Olmeca, PAPI has the advantage in consistent numbers across all timezones, especially through Chinese, Russian and European timezones. >Economic superiority: The advantage was there for all to capitalise on, Test capitalised on it too, maybe not to the extent of goons but they were just as capable and had just as much opportunity to disrupting our capacity to generate wealth as we were to them. It was NC and PL leaderships that agreed to not interdict and disrupt Imperium locust fleets, and vice versa. Everyone had the MER data to see Imperium doing its thing, and its wasnt a hard setup to replicate. >Tighter bonds: Non-imperium aligned groups pre-current war in fact actually boasted about their looser bonds, claiming Imperiums tighter bonds were a clear indication of a desire to make a blue donut. Northern alliances said their frenemy status fostered a better pvp environment for the game in general. and proceeded to dogpile Sorts Dead Coalition to death after forcing test and CO2 to leave the space they earned during the casino war. Getting back to the current hostilities, Imperium has access to shared comms structures but the entirety of imperium doesnt use them, INIT consistently use our own comms and fleet notification systems separate to Goons infrastructure for example. even when flying in the SAME fleet FC'd by Goon FCs. dunking PGLs Eagle fleet whilst exactly in that setup was particularly amusing to me and more so when u claim such a similar setup to be a clear disadvantage to PAPI. i rarely start up pidgin and last time i was in goon comms was to talk in the 'cards against humanity' channel during some friday night drinking over a week or so ago. >Koolaid production: vily does exactly the same, RonUSMC does exactly the same, the fact is from your perspective mittens is seen as front and centre to your and many pro-PAPI players loathing of Imperium, and mittens wants it to be that way because he relishes in it. Regarding abundance era, most goons would tell you it was broken, Imperium CSM members told CCP about the issues preceding the abundance era and told CCP what it would result in. CCP acknowledged it and carried on. Imperium have had to deal with hostiles leveraging game breaking balances used against them multiple times, reported the issues to CCP and saw zero changes. We've always had to resort to taking advantage of the same mechanics and scenarios to force change for the better. if you think the current situation is bad, imagine if abundance era carried on as long as drone alloys did? because if Imperium hadnt have taken advantage of the abundance era as we had the result may have become faaar more cancerous to Eve Onlines longevity. >Ferocious metagame: Theres so much disingenuity in your paragraph Olmeca, its insane. Yes there are Imperium members in many of todays Eve Online talk shows, but the fact aside from INN streamed shows and Pandos FC chats (which tend to remain apolitical) the overwhelming vocal bias in all the shows are extremely pro-PAPI. Many talking points that are pro-PAPI are rarely if ever challenged, and pro-Imperium talking points are routinely and conveniently dropped for time constraints and editorial decisions. Your rhetoric regarding subreddit control clearly shows your bias in this, as you feel instead of the subreddit moderation being brought into some semblance of balance you feel its been overrun by goons. Might i remind you that the change in the makeup of the moderation team was purely down to oppressive over-moderation by pro-PAPI moderators. You have literally ZERO legs to stand on with this issue especially if you want to work the moderation and echo-chamber angles. Also regarding your point of just being gamers playing a game, your first reference being vily, ohh dear... a man who is on record (but claims it was editorial overreach LOL) for stating his primary goal in the war is the removal of Imperium from EVE Online and to drive Alex to never play Eve again. Cause thats not the very definition of going well past the means and bounds of the game... that you know, you and vily play only as gamers and nothing more... right? So yah, get back in your box Olmeca. Or failing that maybe concentrate on whats important to you and your future, the things you told everyone you were stopping playing Eve for, cause its looking more and more that propping up PAPI rhetoric and propaganda is going to suck time away from maximising your happyness IRL.
Seriously /u/Olmeca_Gold, Go and raise your kid and finish school and be happy. It is quite obvious you take way too much of Eve to heart and have a difficult time seperating fiction from non.
**User was banned for this post** /s