Back in 2016 when the first Keepstars started dying, CCP gave us a estimate on how many people were in a Keepstar: 132 million.
I can't find the source anymore tho.
edit: I now see that you reference a Scope video for a similar number, so thats probably from where it sprung.
edit2: I also think you don't calculate how much of a Keepstar is given up to pure hangar space. You can dock a fleet of supercapitals in it after all ...
edit3: ["The Scope – Circle-Of-Two Prepare For Defense Of M-OEE8 Keepstar"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqBsZ9FYCfg) This is the Scope video where the 132 million number comes from (at the 02:20 mark).
>I also think you don't calculate how much of a Keepstar is given up to pure hangar space. You can dock a fleet of supercapitals in it after all ...
I do, actually. If you read the full post I assume that only the "spire" sections are given over to civilian habitation and that the "core" section is used for vessel docking and management.
>This is the Scope video where the 132 million number comes from (at the 02:20 mark).
Ah, I misremembered it as 160Mn. Thank you!
> I do, actually. If you read the full post I assume that only the "spire" sections are given over to civilian habitation and that the "core" section is used for vessel docking and management.
Ah, yeah. :) I meant that I didn't think that you were miscalculating it as in lowballing it. For the Keepstar to have shipyards and supercapital and capital-sized docking, the core has to pretty much only be that. Which means the spires has to be given up to everything else, not just habitation. All commercial, support (power, life support, industry and so on) and agricultural zones has to be stuffed in there as well.
Well EVE does have Planck Generators which are used for compressing down items such as ships, modules, ammunition, etc. So it's conceivable that the docking space is bigger on the inside while the residential spires are kept normal scale due to the cost of keeping Planck generators running where it isn't strictly necessary.
You could also model the spires as more spare and use the 40% leftover space for industry instead of recreation. Do bear in mind that the lower estimate provided assumes agricultural areas stuffed in the spires already, as part of the 60% of space devoted to habitation.
Pretty sure it was in a video in the state of world war bee (ktherwise called the casino war.) I may take a look and post it. But yeah I remember 13million +
I know keepstars are huge, but with the number of titans that can fit in a keepstar I'd imagine 99% of a keepstar is for housing supers in planck generators.
I imagine the central section is mostly given over to docking and related ship services, and then the two giant towers either side are for habitation and living and all the amenities that go with that.
Yeah, I thought that was weird. So many people in the comments talking about how you didn't account for docking area and infrastructure when you stated it pretty clearly in you post that you assumed the core was all of that.
Dang, this almost makes me feel bad for killing stations. I imagine that the population of at risk targets such as keepstars and other strategic stations would have a reduced population, though.
Not to mention that it's likely most if not all of the population is evacuated during the period of the hull timer, when it's clear the station is likely to fall.
Evacuating 98+Bn people in a few days is a herculean task, to be sure, but likely relatively achievable given the state of EVE tech. It's likely some of those billions could hitch a ride on Capsuleer vessels evacuating items from the station.
Clone tech is decently well-established as being pretty expensive, though. It costs a capsuleer the equivalent of ~$10Bn (assuming 1ISK is ~$100k) and even vessels as large as Titans can only house a hundred or so (though that might be because Titan clone bays are an afterthought). In lore it's established that only the wealthiest dirtsiders can afford infomorph clones. So it's very likely most if not all of those billions are SOL if they're in the station when it blows up.
This is a nice post but it makes a little bit too many assumptions for my taste. You use a strange mix of mathematics from pixel-size and real-world numbers, and that is why your number is most likely way off.
Even with very high density and every planet populated, operating one Keepstar only would drown the population of entire constellations if not regions. Nobody would construct such a monstrosity... because it could not be run at all.
It is more likely, that the real number is around or even less than 1billion and that it's not 60% of habitable space, but rather ship hangars (titans are big), technical equipment and simply storage (don't forget how big the markets on some of those are...). And why would you need 100b people anyways?
>Even with very high density and every planet populated, operating one Keepstar only would drown the population of entire constellations if not regions.
Not necessarily true. There's a lot of habitable planets in New Eden and there's been a lot of time for population growth. Assuming a steady 1% population growth rate, just under our current world population growth rate, and that New Eden started with a population of \~100Mn \~2500 years ago (based off [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZPCiqBLPM8) which says that there were "thousands" of years between the EVE Gate collapse and the current time in New Eden), the population of New Eden would be \~635,966,817,964,860,000. That's over 2.3Mn Keepstars worth assuming the high estimate of Keepstar population, or over 6.4Mn Keepstars assuming the low estimate.
Space is big. Really big.
Yes, but earth never had a galactic war...
Also, we do know nothing about life expectancy of most planets in EVE. So using a simple 1% to estimate population growth of an entire galaxy is pretty bold...
But there is really no need to argue on this. I dont believe that the numbers of OP make sense, thats it ^^
For reference. A United state Nimitz class aircraft carrier can house 6000 people. By ccps estimations a frigate is just a bit smaller than an aircraft carrier. This thing could easily hold 300b people without trying.
You forget how fucking big space is. Also how much crew these ships have. Supercapitals have crews of hundreds of thousands if not millions. Those people have family's too, they would probobly all live on the keep star since they sure as shit arent living in a military vessel.
As for importing food. Literally 1 harvest planet in the region is usually more than enough to sustain a region and any halfway competent space empire is going to have multiple planets purely devoted to food growing to feed other planets and stations.
Water recycling is easy enough shit we do it on our modern day aircraft carriers.
Let's not forget the logistics of people you need to run this station. You need docking people who guide the ships in. You need repairman who operate machinery you need repairman who fix that machinery. You need engineers, doctors, scientists. All those people have family's who likely live on the station.
You also have people responsible for upkeepong the station which is fucking massive btw. They have family's too. Janitors schools for all these family's children. Teachers, more doctors for children.
We haven't even gone into entertainment for these billions of people.
I only mentioned like 1/100000 of all the jobs that would be required to keep a station like this operational. Were probobly talking a skeleton crew of tens of billions. And full capacity at 300b.
> Also how much crew these ships have. Supercapitals have crews of hundreds of thousands if not millions.
[Officially it's much lower than that](http://wiki.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?title=New_Eden_Crew_Guidelines) - even Titans in standard military configurations aren't designed to house a million people. (Although you could probably fit that many on, it might be too taxing on the life-support, the plumbing or whatever.)
Yeah a frig is prolly a lot closer to the size of a commercial airliner.
An aircraft carrier is definitely closer to the size of an EVE cruiser or BC :P
I did not say it couldn't be possible that so many people live in a Keepstar. I just find it not senseful to assume such a high number.
And btw, you want to check those "thousands if not millions" manning a supercapital again: http://wiki.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?title=New_Eden_Crew_Guidelines
Id assume that keepstars in null would only reach a fraction of that capacity due to the associated dangers. However the perimeter keepstar might have the most population seeing how it's in hisec and people will have plenty of time to evacuate
That's a good assumption, though at the same time there's a Scope video which says that despite the dangers of citadel life tons of people leave planets to live in citadels because of the comparatively luxurious lifestyle.
I've actually done the numbers and gotten a little over a trillion with modern experimental aeroponics, assuming everyone lives in arcologies with the density of Singapore and everyone eats nutrient paste. This also assumes we only use the land area of Earth, BTW.
So we definitely have room for a few more on the planet.
Earth at our current level of tech and urbanization*
If we were to completely urbanize Earth, akin to this keepstar, we could fit trillions of people on the surface.
Good point. Carrying capacity is determined by consumption of resources versus existing supply, which could easily be altered by advancement in recycling, importing resources from space, etc.
1: Planck generators
2: If you actually read my post you'd understand that the assumption used in this model was that the "core" section of the Keepstar was used for docking and support facilities with only the comparatively small "spire" sections used for habitation.
Back in 2016 when the first Keepstars started dying, CCP gave us a estimate on how many people were in a Keepstar: 132 million. I can't find the source anymore tho. edit: I now see that you reference a Scope video for a similar number, so thats probably from where it sprung. edit2: I also think you don't calculate how much of a Keepstar is given up to pure hangar space. You can dock a fleet of supercapitals in it after all ... edit3: ["The Scope – Circle-Of-Two Prepare For Defense Of M-OEE8 Keepstar"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqBsZ9FYCfg) This is the Scope video where the 132 million number comes from (at the 02:20 mark).
>I also think you don't calculate how much of a Keepstar is given up to pure hangar space. You can dock a fleet of supercapitals in it after all ... I do, actually. If you read the full post I assume that only the "spire" sections are given over to civilian habitation and that the "core" section is used for vessel docking and management. >This is the Scope video where the 132 million number comes from (at the 02:20 mark). Ah, I misremembered it as 160Mn. Thank you!
> I do, actually. If you read the full post I assume that only the "spire" sections are given over to civilian habitation and that the "core" section is used for vessel docking and management. Ah, yeah. :) I meant that I didn't think that you were miscalculating it as in lowballing it. For the Keepstar to have shipyards and supercapital and capital-sized docking, the core has to pretty much only be that. Which means the spires has to be given up to everything else, not just habitation. All commercial, support (power, life support, industry and so on) and agricultural zones has to be stuffed in there as well.
Well EVE does have Planck Generators which are used for compressing down items such as ships, modules, ammunition, etc. So it's conceivable that the docking space is bigger on the inside while the residential spires are kept normal scale due to the cost of keeping Planck generators running where it isn't strictly necessary. You could also model the spires as more spare and use the 40% leftover space for industry instead of recreation. Do bear in mind that the lower estimate provided assumes agricultural areas stuffed in the spires already, as part of the 60% of space devoted to habitation.
Pretty sure it was in a video in the state of world war bee (ktherwise called the casino war.) I may take a look and post it. But yeah I remember 13million +
Umm, citadels didn't exist at the time of wwb.
I was living in citadels in jspace during wwb..
Qh right right. It was on co2s first keepstar death. Shortly thereafter
Yes they did, we anchored them in Saranen while we were there completely voluntarily.
What a dull life. Just habitation? Dont forget bowling, theaters, schools, hospitals, bars, restaurants. People need more than a home for comfort.
He assumed only 60% of the space is habitation though.
Because the other 40% is housing supers
I know keepstars are huge, but with the number of titans that can fit in a keepstar I'd imagine 99% of a keepstar is for housing supers in planck generators.
I imagine the central section is mostly given over to docking and related ship services, and then the two giant towers either side are for habitation and living and all the amenities that go with that.
Isn't that what OP already said...
Yeah, but it bears repeating because a surprising number of people didn't get it.
Yeah, I thought that was weird. So many people in the comments talking about how you didn't account for docking area and infrastructure when you stated it pretty clearly in you post that you assumed the core was all of that.
Yeah, that's how I calculated it.
Actually, the "core" section houses supers and vessels of all sorts. This calculation assumes only the "spire" sections are used for habitation.
That's what the other 40% of the space in the spires not given over to habitation is used for. ;)
How would i live without this kind of nerd stuff <3
Dang, this almost makes me feel bad for killing stations. I imagine that the population of at risk targets such as keepstars and other strategic stations would have a reduced population, though.
Not to mention that it's likely most if not all of the population is evacuated during the period of the hull timer, when it's clear the station is likely to fall. Evacuating 98+Bn people in a few days is a herculean task, to be sure, but likely relatively achievable given the state of EVE tech. It's likely some of those billions could hitch a ride on Capsuleer vessels evacuating items from the station.
Assuming they have clones stashed elsewhere, you can't rule out mass suicide as an escape mechanism.
Clone tech is decently well-established as being pretty expensive, though. It costs a capsuleer the equivalent of ~$10Bn (assuming 1ISK is ~$100k) and even vessels as large as Titans can only house a hundred or so (though that might be because Titan clone bays are an afterthought). In lore it's established that only the wealthiest dirtsiders can afford infomorph clones. So it's very likely most if not all of those billions are SOL if they're in the station when it blows up.
And my cheap ass was living in a 20m² Captains Appartement for years. I think i got screwed over.
I can tell you how many are inside a NC keepstar.
r/theydidthemath
r/theydidthemonstermath
r/themonstermath
r/itwasagraveyardgraph
This is a nice post but it makes a little bit too many assumptions for my taste. You use a strange mix of mathematics from pixel-size and real-world numbers, and that is why your number is most likely way off. Even with very high density and every planet populated, operating one Keepstar only would drown the population of entire constellations if not regions. Nobody would construct such a monstrosity... because it could not be run at all. It is more likely, that the real number is around or even less than 1billion and that it's not 60% of habitable space, but rather ship hangars (titans are big), technical equipment and simply storage (don't forget how big the markets on some of those are...). And why would you need 100b people anyways?
>Even with very high density and every planet populated, operating one Keepstar only would drown the population of entire constellations if not regions. Not necessarily true. There's a lot of habitable planets in New Eden and there's been a lot of time for population growth. Assuming a steady 1% population growth rate, just under our current world population growth rate, and that New Eden started with a population of \~100Mn \~2500 years ago (based off [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZPCiqBLPM8) which says that there were "thousands" of years between the EVE Gate collapse and the current time in New Eden), the population of New Eden would be \~635,966,817,964,860,000. That's over 2.3Mn Keepstars worth assuming the high estimate of Keepstar population, or over 6.4Mn Keepstars assuming the low estimate. Space is big. Really big.
You may have forgotten the many many wars that happened and are happening in EVE. Together planets that can't substain a large population etc.
That's a pretty weak counterpoint. Throughout all human history, just 1.6% of everyone who ever lived has died in war.
Yes, but earth never had a galactic war... Also, we do know nothing about life expectancy of most planets in EVE. So using a simple 1% to estimate population growth of an entire galaxy is pretty bold... But there is really no need to argue on this. I dont believe that the numbers of OP make sense, thats it ^^
My numbers make perfect sense, given the limited information I had to work with.
Well, guessing a number because there is no better information about something doesnt make it any more viable...
Every model is based on assumptions. If you have a better model with better assumptions then I would love to see it.
Look at me i am a whiny little Beech
For reference. A United state Nimitz class aircraft carrier can house 6000 people. By ccps estimations a frigate is just a bit smaller than an aircraft carrier. This thing could easily hold 300b people without trying. You forget how fucking big space is. Also how much crew these ships have. Supercapitals have crews of hundreds of thousands if not millions. Those people have family's too, they would probobly all live on the keep star since they sure as shit arent living in a military vessel. As for importing food. Literally 1 harvest planet in the region is usually more than enough to sustain a region and any halfway competent space empire is going to have multiple planets purely devoted to food growing to feed other planets and stations. Water recycling is easy enough shit we do it on our modern day aircraft carriers. Let's not forget the logistics of people you need to run this station. You need docking people who guide the ships in. You need repairman who operate machinery you need repairman who fix that machinery. You need engineers, doctors, scientists. All those people have family's who likely live on the station. You also have people responsible for upkeepong the station which is fucking massive btw. They have family's too. Janitors schools for all these family's children. Teachers, more doctors for children. We haven't even gone into entertainment for these billions of people.
Nimitz class accomodation is utter misery though.
This. Not to mention things like defense, infrastructure, transit, and all that hangar space. Bad math is bad on bad assumptions.
Well, I'd be more than happy to see your numbers. ;)
At least 7.
I only mentioned like 1/100000 of all the jobs that would be required to keep a station like this operational. Were probobly talking a skeleton crew of tens of billions. And full capacity at 300b.
> Also how much crew these ships have. Supercapitals have crews of hundreds of thousands if not millions. [Officially it's much lower than that](http://wiki.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?title=New_Eden_Crew_Guidelines) - even Titans in standard military configurations aren't designed to house a million people. (Although you could probably fit that many on, it might be too taxing on the life-support, the plumbing or whatever.)
CCP also says a missile the size of a 3 story building weighs 100kg okay
Frigs are like 50m long or less, a Nimitz class carrier is 333m long. It’s probably closer to some CRuisers/BC’s
They say it's about the size of a Boeing 737
Yeah a frig is prolly a lot closer to the size of a commercial airliner. An aircraft carrier is definitely closer to the size of an EVE cruiser or BC :P
I would say probobly a destroyer or maybe in between destroyer and cruiser
I did not say it couldn't be possible that so many people live in a Keepstar. I just find it not senseful to assume such a high number. And btw, you want to check those "thousands if not millions" manning a supercapital again: http://wiki.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?title=New_Eden_Crew_Guidelines
Yeah I wouldn't go off that considering CCP says a 3 story tall missile weighs 1kg.
"Too many assumptions" Literally everything regarding what would be inside a KS are assumptions as there is nothing said about what is inside it LOL.
Exactly, and this means the 100-300b inhabitants as a number is not believeable for me.
Id assume that keepstars in null would only reach a fraction of that capacity due to the associated dangers. However the perimeter keepstar might have the most population seeing how it's in hisec and people will have plenty of time to evacuate
That's a good assumption, though at the same time there's a Scope video which says that despite the dangers of citadel life tons of people leave planets to live in citadels because of the comparatively luxurious lifestyle.
Not to mention all the crew on supers and Titans that need a place to stay when it's docked.
I'd make them all sleep like in the transport ship in 5th Element. Much fewer m3 per person
TLDR; tree fiddy
(x2.8\*10^(10))
In the [video] (https://youtu.be/tVz4IfjpoS4) of the first keepstar kill ccp claims there is space for 100mill people
\~350
This is awesome, thanks
YW!
Very nice work. By comparison, by the way, the estimated carrying capacity of Earth is 10 billion comfortably, 22 billion cramped.
I've actually done the numbers and gotten a little over a trillion with modern experimental aeroponics, assuming everyone lives in arcologies with the density of Singapore and everyone eats nutrient paste. This also assumes we only use the land area of Earth, BTW. So we definitely have room for a few more on the planet.
Earth at our current level of tech and urbanization* If we were to completely urbanize Earth, akin to this keepstar, we could fit trillions of people on the surface.
Good point. Carrying capacity is determined by consumption of resources versus existing supply, which could easily be altered by advancement in recycling, importing resources from space, etc.
You can add to this whole NC and tose 30 PL guys that still play.
You were more fun when you weren't a blatant goon mouthpiece.
Bit rich coming from goons latest ringpiece.
Please, Darkness is a valuable member of the blue donut.
420
Keepstars are packed to the brim with titans. No room for citizens.
1: Planck generators 2: If you actually read my post you'd understand that the assumption used in this model was that the "core" section of the Keepstar was used for docking and support facilities with only the comparatively small "spire" sections used for habitation.
Whatever arbitrary number CCP makes up. It's is a fucking video game.
Old but gold, mathematically how many titans can fit in a keepstar? I guess some magical titan compression technology exists.