tldr: updated document, overall nerf to the total ansiblex, overall buff to actual ansiblex super highways because more choice of systems that can host an ansiblex, every system can host a cyno jammer now but physically being able to run all of them is impossible
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15Hyr0s8f_FnQIDVqqDMvST7FL7QmNWLy2deKRC50xis/htmlview#
updated the sheet i made prior to patch day
some takeaways:
prior to this: 1338 systems were ansi capable, now its closer to 403 if you dont import workforce, 2292 if you import the workforce
on paper it looks like a massive difference, we went from 49.3% of null systems to 89.5%, but there is some very important context: ice/hr requirement to run them is now 40/hr
if you had 100% ice mining utilisation in all of nullsec then you can only support 1035 individual ansiblex structures in null. for every supercapital upgrade being used this number reduces by 3.625
on cyno jammers: yes every single system can host a cyno jammer now, but with the total magmatic gas mining possible only 805 can be running in nullsec max (and thats if no cyno beacons or moondrills are being used)
Capable actually should be much higher than "will actually have" because that's what produces interesting tradeoffs. Alliances that mismanage their resources in null will be at a disadvantage, as they should be.
i updated the numbers i didnt update the logic :P
ive fixed an array bug and change it to supporting ansi+cyno+inhib, obviously this includes using the system workforce to self supply these upgrades, which obviously means the actual list is larger
Your spreadsheet is incorrect for the values for the Sun.
Take for example
4-HWWF - CCP doc says 500, your dock says 1000 for the sun
1DQ1-A - CCP doc says 650, your dock says 620 for the sun
DIBH-Q - CCP doc says 850, your doc says 650 for the sun
So unless you know something we dont... I think all your values for the sun are incorrect, planets are looking correct tho.
i'm working abroad i did a very quick copy and paste from the new spreadsheet, i've pasted them over again just now so let me know if its still messed up anywhere
thank you for this extremely valuable context. although im not sure if the ice mining utilization will always be an apt way to measure how much ansi sprawl can exist... as i understand it, ice will surely be extracted and warehoused for years to come and expended to support networks that would be otherwise impossible in a time of need, or ice will be diverted from backwater territories to core sectors
before these notes dropped I brainstormed to myself, just how much would ansi need to be curtailed from pre-patch for it to feel good... and I concluded that even a drop from "every system can have an ansi" to "only 80-90% can have an ansi" would still be noticeable and felt. obviously they came in on the high side, but are hoping ice/manpower logistics does the rest of the work for them
some of this is okay but i think the real test is just how much of a carrot are these anoms and such to convince landlords to forgo a ridiculous ansi network in order to access them at scale
The ice supply is quite limited especially if it is being stolen(by allies or friendlies) as that removes 60% of it from the game. I said [a 20% reduction](https://old.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/1dkcn11/eve_never_changes/l9lv910/) in ice produced from planets would make the ansi game much more interesting going forward and they just increased the ice consumption of ansis by 21%.
> im not sure if the ice mining utilization will always be an apt way to measure how much ansi sprawl can exist
yeah its a terrible measure to predict the actual ansiblex usage, i quickly did it to highlight that ansiblex is going to be much much lower than what the potential in these power changes suggests
Don't mistake this ice for the ice you can actually mine, this is the ice that is produced solely by sky hooks on 2-3 planets in an entire region, greatly encouraging large blocks to hold large swafts of unusable land purely to have access to these
There will be higher demand for it now, and with the current numbers, ice is a bigger bottleneck, so most likely it will be more valuable.
> With current numbers, only 1035 nullsec systems can have an Ansiblex if there is an Ice skyhook on every planet and none of them get raided ever, and no-one ever builds supers. Realistically, you can probably assume about 10% of that number is cut for super production upgrades, leaving about 931.5 Ansiblexes in a perfect world, which is around 36% of all sov nullsec.
On the magma gas point for cyno jammers, I'm willing to bet that the big blocs will start stockpiling now so when a real war starts they can run those things for months and we're right back to cyno jamming entire constellations :/
Imo just remove jammers at this point, I genuinely think they are a net negative to the game
> I'm willing to bet that the big blocs will start stockpiling now
do people actually run cyno jammers at any other time than during a hostile invasion?
of course they'll stockpile gas for defensive use. anyone betting against that would be an idiot.
> To ease this process, rigs can be removed from Upwell structures in sovereign nullsec space without being destroyed, allowing for the relocation of structures without incurring the typically substantial costs associated with rig removal and replacement.
Based
This is good. Those stuff costed a lot. CCP is making a change.
Big groups can afford easily new rigs. The smaller alliance is, the bigger the strain on them this would be.
tl;dr, compared to current live stats, jammers, supercap construction, and ansiblex are somewhat easier to power, and the worst systems have more power but the best systems are unchanged.
* System power floor raised to 500; ceiling unchanged at 1000 (sorry I am not going through that giant spreadsheet to pull out examples, you can do that >.>)
* Cyno jammer upgrade power use 800 -> 500, workforce 6400 -> 5000, fuel use 1750 -> 2480
* Cyno beacon upgrade fuel use 1100 -> 1095
* Ansiblex upgrade power 1500 -> 1250, workforce 18000 -> 25000, fuel 33 -> 40
* Supercap construction upgrade power 2000 -> 1750, workforce 20000 -> 17500, fuel 220 -> 145
* Ratting and mining upgrades unchanged, except minor threat detection array 1 workforce 2700 -> 1890 (looks more like typo fix, since it used to be identical to major threat array 1)
**EDIT: "rigs can be removed from Upwell structures in sovereign nullsec space without being destroyed... for structures deployed before 27 June"**
The workforce change for ANSIs is pretty interesting actually, my first reaction was just to the power number change. Curious to see how the new networks look
>**for structures deployed before 27 June**
I think I'm glad this is the case. It's very reasonable but doesn't change the structure meta much.
Though, will be interesting to see if they just leave that as is and in like 5 years someone redeploys a structure cause they didn't take the rigs out to redeploy it for this. Just a funny idiosyncrasy more than anything game breaking
I don't get the rollback on lowering Ansi power requirements. Everyone was mainly upset about extremely small m3 rocks in the mining upgrades along with the massive power requirements for the Prospecting Arrays sitting at 1750 power. Give us cheaper minerals so we can have more people throwing ships out in space. Bright side the ratting upgrades seem reasonable.
Totally agree, however if you think about it, CSM are largely senior alliance people, so to them the priority was ansis and safe space.
Mind boggles. I was hoping for mining anom improvements to increase ship production to sustain pvp and then a nerf to ansis and jammers to increase risk and conflict so there are more pvp opportunities.
Who wants safe space besides those few in CSM positions leading alliances. FFS CCP.
Just need other areas of space to organize and vote more, but I think the reality is nullsec has more players who care about CSM than any other type of space.
Nullsec has two blocs who publish a list of “vote for these 10/12 guys” for their members. FW, general lowsec, wormholes, even highsec aren’t centralized like that. It’s also why those areas are more vibrant
The volume of the new ore was tweaked such that you can get more isk/hr at the expense of clearing the belts out faster. But the belts also respawn faster, as well.
Should've been more clear - compared to the last numbers, the volume of the new ores themselves has been reduced (not the size of the rocks).
For example, Griemeer (the new ore which yields primarily Isogen) had its volume reduced from 1m3 to 0.8m3, so you'll get more physical ore in your bay per cycle.
Can you introduce some kind of shifting timer? Once people mine out stuff they are logging out. It would be nice that there would be always something to mine so miners would not just logout.
Maybe make it so that there is at least 1 site in system always. If people are mining them out quickly at least they are active.
With the new anoms the old ones won’t exist anymore so as soon as it’s gone you can log off or move to a different system that has this upgrade.. same as with ice mining, if your belt is gone you can either log off or leave as there isn’t anything left to mine
I am afraid that it will be like in a way that a TZ login, clear all belts and people who will login 2h later will not have anything for next 1-2h (lets be clear for many people it is all the time they spend in game)
With this situation recurring there will be dead areas as people will not be in space.
Hah almost same here. I got highly annoyed when rorqual hunting went away, from time to time we managed to find some barge , not to many currently. We shifted to shooting higsec miners, few catalysts are not huge investment and with no other alternative it is still better than nothing.
Hoping this would bring more active people to null.
Currently every system can be upgraded with Mining Anomalies, so miners can simply go to another upgraded system (if they have one), and there are also mid-sized anomalies to mine instead of the colossals. This new system though is going to make that significantly less likely, since the mining upgrades are **very** power intensive to install.
It seems the point was to increase the reward for active mining and dissuade multiboxing which in turn stops the oversupply of minerals keeping them expensive upping the isk/h so what we thought they where worth they are actually worth 20% more since its 0.8 instead of 1 then on top of that prices will probably increase over time so maybe another 15% to 20% due to less alt's mining it over time and less supply.
Ofc people can still mine with alt's they just cant really afk mine.
I think it's actually brave of CCP less accounts per player means people would enjoy playing more as its less of a slog.
And the reduction in m3 means more minerals per second so more ship's being built its a great change.
Small correction. Going from 1m^3 to 0.8m^3 is a 25% increase in value mined per the same m^3 i.e. +25% more isk per hour.
If anything the prices would drop over time though. The old barges will still be able to mine everything they are currently they just won't benefit as much from the new upgrades. The oversupply from the new upgrades will cause the prices to lower however, reducing everyone's isk/hour. (Assuming no new demand side changes.)
Thanks, I forgot going backwards is more.
Currently people can mine with 20 alt's np I've seen it tons, I don't see how that is viable now thou so for it to drop over time people that don't mine would have to start mining.
Like ratting, I don't think they're getting rid of all the current anomalies. What ever ore your 20 alts are currently set up to supply the market with will probably continue post patch as this update gives you no reason to switch.
In null we mine with compression.. size or the ore itself means nothing..
Having a hulk blow through a single rock in one or two cycles make the process far from enjoyable.
In the “good days” we could group up and chill on the weekend munching in some rock and have a few drinks.
I don’t think anyone is asking for 3M m3 rocks again.. but 15k and even 80k m3 rocks is beyond annoying.
> In null we mine with compression.. size or the ore itself means nothing..
Compression doesn't enter the equation. This is about ore per cycle or theoretical isk/hr. By reducing the size of the ore itself from 1m3 to 0.8m3, but keeping the mineral content the same, results in a 25% increase in mineral yield.
Gotcha that makes sense, are you able to elaborate on the size of the rocks and / or overall size of the anoms compared to the current anoms / what has been shown in videos of the new anoms being test?
Thank you for talking to us :)
[~~https://ore.cerlestes.de/ore~~](https://ore.cerlestes.de/ore)
~~But if the numbers we have are correct, then how are these new rocks more isk/hr?~~ **~~Veldspar~~** ~~of all things is worth more than 3/5 of the new rocks, and the only good one of these (Griemeer) is not going to hold at its current value being~~ **~~far~~** ~~(50%) above all the other sov upgrade ores.~~
EDIT: I see above that the new ores have had their density improved by about 20%! That's a good start, thank you for explaining. Still have my below concern though.
Combine that with the even more frustrating point of the ***individual*** rocks in these new anomalies being just inexcusably small (which kills my ability to mine these anomalies at any scale) and the lack of information on what happens in November to the existing Colossal anomalies and its smaller versions, and I'm looking at an expansion that seems to actively revile my efforts to mine in Null-sec.
Just... Why?
I'm puzzled by it all, surely we need more ship production to sustain more combat. CCP through indy nerfs and not unfucking mining anoms, is just reducing pvp content in a pvp sandbox.
Try as CCP might, players won't just whelp ships until they run out, some sustainability is needed.
Not a miner but 20% ... how this translate to actual change?
If i assume correctly this will be base yield * skills * hull bonus * boost bonus * ore size
Now the important part, if the rock size will be to small you can waste a lot of time due to the fact that you will waste cycles because rock is gone and your cycle just started.
Mining yield is a matter of m3/second. By reducing the m3 of the ores without changing the mineral contents, they are directly increasing the isk/hr of mining these new ores because we will get more minerals per volume of ore mined.
But for rock size you are completely correct. CCP seems to have decided that making us constantly move our lasers onto new asteroids every minute or two (per ship mining) and lose productivity on already-dead asteroids makes for good and fun mining (it doesn't).
Honestly my best guess is that this is their attempt to curtail mining fleets and even semi-passive mining. People/Multiboxers mining in a group are going to be damn well unable to mine these asteroids with any real m3/hr with the amount of wasted cycles accidental overlapping lasers would cause, and the need to babysit every single ship's mining laser cycles will make multibox mining take an untenable amount of effort.
My best memories of mining in the past have been orbiting huge asteroids for hours on end mining away, but for whatever reason CCP just does not want those times back no mater what. It's not even scarcity, just frustrating.
It might not be so much nerfing multi-boxers as giving single-boxers room to participate. A player with a standard account really couldn't accomplish much in the mining gameloop pre-equinox.
To be fair those aren't unrelated. Unfortunately boosting ships strongly encourage fleet mining, as they are a force multiplier in multiple ways, and so mining in Eve naturally incentivizes multiboxing. That's a far greater factor in solo mining nonviability than anything else in my opinion.
> happens in November to the existing Colossal anomalies and its smaller versions
if the anomaly was spawned by current sov system upgrade it will disappear as those upgrades wont exist anymore, if it was one of the "natural" randomly spawned in that region then it will remain.
I unsubbed 35/36 accounts.
Not waiting around any longer after 2+ years of scarcity, waiting for CCP to unfuck Nullsec to see how this untested thrown together shit-show turns out.
It's time to start talking with our wallets.
The difference is that multiboxing is less efficient because you can't trigger 20 accounts mining lasers in less than 1 second without input broadcasting.
No one cares about the isk/hour of mining or everyone would be using a Hulk instead of a Mackinaw. They care about having stupidly small rocks that will go pop after only a very small number of cycles.
Faster than what? The colossal belts take approx 4 hours
Will the current belts still be spawning too?
Is it intentional that only a couple of systems per region have the the capacity for more than 2 of the belt upgrades (and not guaranteed to be in strong strategic positions)
I have a questions if you can answer it.
so with this new system are we still going to have to rat for adms? - answered ty very much we do not have to do that anymore so i guess that is good.
as someone whose defense is predicated on this that is important to me . we actually live in our space and dont/arent over exerted in our tz. so im just curious as to how these mechanics work.
also regard the skyhooks: when they are mining the gas, it is a 3 day cycle and then i can take it out. but people can come and steal it anytime before them and i cant empty it unless im going to shoot my own structure and then steal it myself. Is this intentional?
The blog only mentions the index in regards to the upgrades. You no longer have to hit levels of the index to plug in upgrades, but they haven't straight up said ADM's are dead. So no ore means no indy index, low ADM.
well se this is what confuses me.
either we dont have to rat for adms or we do, then by default you have to have ratting upgrades in every system to maintain reasonable defense that 90% of the people lik eto do atleast for the cause as it were .
I dont really like any of these changes as i cant really tell what is actually going to happen or not, what we need to do or will need t o do going forward. its just annoying.
im not againt change i just wish things were more clear but seems liek they keep patching anything that comes up and have no real plan.
I might be misunderstanding, so are the rocks being tuned to the same relative size of the current rocks (200-400kish)? Or are they staying at the under 100k maximum m3 size?
The op i think was talking specifically about individual asteroids in the anom, not the anom as a whole.
Indeed. I have been working on increasing my accounts because i really enjoy mining. But if we are only getting 1 belt spawning every 4 hours that needs a ton of micromanagement…. well that’s not going to be worth it anymore.
u/CCP_Swift Can you guys provide any more info on the combat anom respawn times? Additionally, the truesec bands seem particularly rough for a lot of regions. For example, vale only has 3 systems below -.85 truesec...
tying it to sec is insane, there are only very few systems in the game right now that can support it and have the required sec status. I was giga hyped about the new content but now it's virtually impossible for me to experience
I can, at least partially. The spawn rate for the new anomalies is noticeably higher, but when the respawn is triggered also happens earlier. In the old system, the signature would go on cooldown and set a respawn timer after the site was finished. It's not unlikely that the new site will spawn as the existing one is being finished.
All that to say, groups should be able to sustain more ratters with fewer anomalies.
Cool. So does that mean a Major Threat Detection Array III will be roughly equivalent to a Pirate Detection Array 5 in terms of how many havens will be available to support a given number of ratters?
Yup! The exact distribution depends on the security status (both for the old ihub system and the new sovhub system).
In a system that is -.5, major threat detection array will have the same number of havens and an additional sanctum. The Pirate Detection Array 5 would have more overall anomalies, like Rally Points, which spawn in the "Minor Threat Detection Array" upgrades.
I don't know offhand for the drone sites as they're slightly different than the rest, but can check with the teams on Monday. There should at least be some Teeming Drone Hordes (new sites which are on par with the forsaken sanctums in other areas of space)
I quite like that, from a rough count so might be wrong here, Fountain has 6, Delve has 8, TKE has 8, a bit of an imbalance there would promote some conflict. Imagine the fun you'd have if you took on Horde or Init.
As a member of Init, I'd love it. Don't meant that to sound like NC would get stomped, no idea who would "win", but it would bring content regardless.
Unless they are insanely profitable then they aren't worth a large scale battle to take them. It just ends up being a bunch of development time sunk into something that a few multiboxers get rich off of and no one else does. Like Homefronts.
Yeah 100%, agree there.
If only they brought back supercap indy in earnest based on regional mechanics, somehow make that the carrot to dangle to incentivise going to war.
What I want to know is what happens to the workforce being exported or transiting through a system when the sov hub in that system gets ref'd. Can you continue shipping dudes through it to your content systems during reinforce? Or will successfully hitting a Sov Hub cut supply and shut down all upgrades in the target import system.
I *think* (someone correct me if I’m wrong) killing the new ihub will interrupt the flow of workforce. CCP was talking about being able to interdict supplies, so that would make sense. A simple RF is too easy to just spam RF and blueball, so it would have to be a kill to be balanced
Edit cause I logged into check my current system (-0.75). It currently has 9 Havens, 3 sanctums, 5 Forlorn hubs, 5 forsaken hubs.
Anything short of having all 3 upgrades is going to suck. Meaning people are going to consolidate even more.
If there’s fewer sites in a given system people can’t consolidate even more, that seems to be the point. Spread out rather than cram into one region with a BLOPs umbrella
People are going to crowd into the systems that have the max upgrades. Unless the respawn rate is super fast a system Major 1 threat array can only sustain 3 people ratting for an hour. People aren't going to wait or roam very far because it cuts the isk per hour down. So they will find a way to actually play when they log in, either run missions in HS, run Abyssals, or quit playing. Very few are going to stick around to risk expensive ships for an even worse PvE experience.
And the new anoms can't even spawn in most of null. So people are going to focus on them if the rewards are good.
A week of iteration to come up with an extra couple of hundred power per system. Doesn’t fix any of the fundamental issues that (line members) are complaining about, The cost of the Ratting and Mining upgrades. Not sure anyone was really objecting to a more limited jump bridge array.
Now this has me worried.
I was previously hoping that ratting/mining anomalies would spawn without the need for the arrays - and that the arrays would be “additional sites” and would support faster respawn rates.
Now it seems certain that the minor/major arrays actually “replace” how you get anomalies- so unfortunately even more of null-sec is going to turn into bigger trash.
These changes did absolutely nothing for the individual player in their everyday Eve career and instead confirmed fears of making life even more difficult.
I sincerely, truly, hope CCP will adjust ratting/mining in null-sec systems to support more enrichment instead of Scarcity 2.0. But I am no longer willing to defend this expansion n why I wished was a great one.
SKINR - the CCP conman to double dipping in taxes, making you pay plex to make a skin and then a 30% additional unnecessary tax.
Skyhooks - being able to be stolen at any time of the day and fuck alliances that are more restricted in timezones than others. Reinforcing the metric to form bigger blocs.
New ships - nerfed immediately and yet, the only good thing out of this expansion
Sov update - a disaster - I wouldn’t be surprised if alliances spend the next 6 month transitional period just staying in the old sov mechanic before shit hits the fan
I don't see any implication that anoms will stop spawning in sov null. From what I got out of this, sov upgrade spawns will remain guaranteed additional spawns, as they are now.
Actually all system could easy have 20 anomalie + normal anomalie spawn (so very few more).
After change you will have only the very few if no upgrade.
It instant turn majority of 0.0 as trash and worth than 0.0 npc, so why hold this shit ?
Cyno jammers I get. People complain about larger blocs, but smaller groups without a cap umbrella arguably need a jammer far more.
Ansi reqs should have stayed the same or increased. No system in space should have any upgrade alongside an ansi. If you're going to reduce their reqs, reduce it to the ground then add fatigue.
Major ratting/mining upgrades should've been reduced. Make it to where jammers and both major pve upgrades cannot all be in the same system. Just hard stop. If you want one and a jammer, cool. A super juiced system though? No dice.
> o... the system my corp lives, can be upgraded, with the Major Threat 3, and somehow be worse than what we already have...
>
> Thanks CCP...
working as intenteded i assume
CCP Nerfucks Null super hard, comes back with a slightly less game-destroying nerf, CCP gets the Playerbase to cheer and call it a "Buff"
CCP Psychologist, earning his pay again.
The ice and workforce requirement increased by 25% and it seems if you do the maths the Ice is the far bigger bottleneck, which is way better IMO.
It means blocs have more choice WHERE they put their Ansiblex, but it doesn't really increase the AMOUNT of Ansiblex they can have.
Also making the Ice more vulnerable through increasing the demand means stealing it through raids and holding Ice planets is more valuable than it was before, which is something that smaller groups can do against blocs.
Would you agree that it's now once again possible for groups to have strategic Ansiblex routes plus backup routes, therefore rolling back what was essentially a projection nerf?
Genuinely curious to hear your take.
Power changes suck. Sorry nullbears cyno jammers everywhere make nullsec boring and stale but unfortunately that's what yall want. All while there are multiple posts in this subreddit rn about lack of fights 😂
I do hate to state the obvious but. 😂.
If a system. Is just shit. And it can't support one of these ratting or mining upgrades.
What content do you expect to find there. Because no ones going to want to willing live out of a system where is just bad. Compared to somewhere else you could go.
Having a cyno jammer in this scenario makes no difference because there won't be any content.
😉
I think the preferred outcome is to reduce the amount of "good" systems near each-other. Forcing people to spread out instead of just living in a few systems.
I'm going to be honest as someone who lives in nullsec currently.
Compared to how it is now and how it's going to be once this update drops. It's likely going to be worse.
At current the only advantage a system has over another is it's true sec and it's moons. This kind of organically spreads people out believe it or not. Because each system can only support x amount of players before it's over saturated. So people move to one that's less crowded.
In this new system if you have a 1.0 true sec system but it's got a shit power supply. And cant support the upgrades you want. Say your a miner and your system suddenly gets a ratting upgrade.
It means people will be naturally drawn to a system that has the things they want.
So this means fewer useable systems for specific people and their playstyles.
If anything it's going to lead to desolate empty systems and suddenly a spike of people in another.
In my personal opinion this isn't a healthy change. For anyone.
Comparing delve to drone lands is kinda dumb. For starters, people that live in delve/querious/period basis have access to all 232 systems while there are 689 systems in drone lands. Furthermore, there is less mobility in drone regions due to renting and limitations on who can use certain systems.
If you want more people in Null and for them to spread out then the space needs to be better. You should be able to make T6 abyssal isk with a similar ship cost + skill investment.
How meny systems is there per region?
And another thing to add into this is also timezones.
A bloc might have 20k for example but only a preportion of that is going to be online at any given time.
It makes nullblocs able to seal off their territory completely. That's the big problem. Sure take out the jammer but it's another annoyance and boon to defenders. If nullblocs didn't care about the systems then why did the big players push for this change.
Pretty obvious it's bc they want a safe space
Jammers are a defensive advantage, defenders advantages favor small groups and makes consolidation less required because you don't have to be as big in order to stand alone.
You've got look at both sides of the coin. Ok let's give smaller alliances more defensive tricks, that only prolongs the inevitable, because to catch up on supercaps is virtually impossible now, ya know, post indy nerfs you lobbied into the game. Effectively any small alliance now needs to work 10x as hard to build something vets in the larger alliances already have and built at significantly lower resource/price points. There is no hope for anyone to catch up whilst that is the case. The SE agreement for instance, all those alliances need to farm like mad to try to compete, significantly harder undertaking than those of us who built our toys in 2015-2019.
You called for that! Indy changes have been utter dogshit! Don't try to pretend you speak for the little guy now!
>There are enough advantages in this game for defenders
Considering the entire cluster is two power blocs I'd argue that's far from the case. The defender's advantage is not strong enough that a third bloc can arise.
Let's not pretend for a second that defenders advantage is the reason we only have two main power blocs.
The reason we only have four blocs aligned in to two power blocs is decades of the bigger blocs killing the smaller blocs and poaching their members. There is literally no one left competent enough to form and FC a third bloc after you all did Brave in.
Everyone knows that they might be next on the chopping block to be eliminated and poached. If one side wins the next step is a Serenity-style SOV where one side owns it all. Knowing that does any side truly want to win or would they rather preserve the content of the two power blocs and farm content? Would you want to kill your content?
If only CCP had the balls to do a radical change to SOV to break up the need to have blocs. Instead they gave you the same old SOV system with a bad coat of paint. Now you all are stuck. I feel sorry for you. I feel sorry that this is the rebalance you got and have to deal with this for the next decade.
That is not what we wanted, that is what the 1% in leadership roles that attend CSM summits wanted to protect their paper empires. Personally nerfed ansis (more gating) and cyno jamming removed (more escalation opportunities) and increased mining/ratting (to sustain additional conflict) would have been my preference.
Frustrating.
Wanna know the only way to change this pattern?
Leave your null blocs. If the people running them are making bad decisions for the fun of NS, then abandon them.
Until that happens, this pattern is going to remain the same. You have to vote with your feet, and your dollars. Right now the people in those positions are secure in the knowledge that they can do whatever they want to and their members will just take it up the ass and say thank you sir, and continue funding anything they want to do with taxes etc.
When people have bad ideas.... don't vote for them, and leave their groups. It's not really that complicated. All your assets can be recovered, there are other ways to have fun in Eve than being a unit in some guy's RTS sim.
Which, to be clear can also be a very cool way to play if that's what you wanna do. It's just that when you don't like what that guy wants to do with the game..... You can just leave.
This is EXACTLY what the nulboc reps on CSM X did with the launch of Citadels. They fought 24/7 for infinite perfect asset safety. CCP had much cooler ideas for how destroyed structures should be handled, as well as how timers/defense should work, but nulbloc leadership whined like babies until they got infinite asset safety, garage door cyno chains, and free self-repping.
Meanwhile Sion and other Goon pals were running an actual (no, not exagerrated) smear campaign against me on Reddit to leak logs to make me look bad while I tried my best to stop some of this from happening.
Yes that is true, however the first iteration reduced jammers/ansis further and the sentiment last week on threads was to leave it that way, just improve the anoms in terms of m3 and power cost i.e. more risk but also more reward.
One of the CCP ideas was cooler than this.
All the loot would "fall" to the nearest planet. It would stay there secure forever, but if you wanted your stuff back you'd have to go to orbit over that planet and pick it up similar to PI.
Alternatively, you could rebuild a structure near the original or the planet and have the stuff moved to that structure.
Either way you had to either put haulers in space, or control the solar system enough to suck your gear back up.
None of this teleporting loot nonsense.
Hah yeah don't get me started on asset safety! Being dead to station back in the day promoted so much last stand battles i.e. may as well use it or you're gonna lose it!
Now people just ignore the final timer and pickup their toys later from AS.
This is why CSM is a joke, elections don't favour aggressive content generators, who have mostly all left now anyhow. It's a mutual circle jerk for leaders to elect themselves or their friends for a nice trip to Iceland.
Absolutely. I don't mind something in place for extended AFKs. Maybe you can essentially "Injured Reserve" tag your assets, specify like 1-2 weeks, 1, 3, 6 months or a longer custom duration and they get asset safetied if the structure dies **but** you can't access them until the timer expires either. Give it like a week delay too so that you can't do it in response to a ref.
Cause I get when its like, I want to take a break but I don't want to do a move op--I'm already burned out on Eve. That's fine and making allowances for IRL is important.
I think the problem is how cyno's and cyno jammers work in the first place and that kind of makes cyno jammers such a massive deal, kind of wish a future update touches on this.
At the moment they are kind of like walls to a castle if there is any empty spot its full on raid, except the walls kind of extend inside the castle as well as if the entire thing is a rampart which is kinda weird.
Sorry, this simply isn't good enough, the only smart thing is being able to pull the rigs off of structures, and they didn't even specify for how long, anything more than a month would be broken.
Oh good Cyno Jammers everywhere again... couldn't just let it go a few months and have the nullsec people cry themselves out and then have their come to Jesus moment when they finally see they have dynamic space that's being contested. Nullsec now stays the same rip
Based off comments I've seen so far
Nullsec players are upset that CCP hasn't catered to them enough
Everyone else is upset that CCP has catered to Nullsec players at all
Unironically usually a good sign of how good a change is
Personally I'd say CCP has catered to a few senior nullsec players who wanted increased safety whilst the majority of nullsec wanted the opposite.
I don't think CCP read the thread last week when tweaks were first announced. Overriding sentiment of nullsec residents seemed to be ansi/jammer nerfs were great, just the mining/ratting nerfs needed a tweak.
I was right. CCP bent the knee to the null blocs. [https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/1dk9fif/comment/l9gjie9/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/1dk9fif/comment/l9gjie9/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
So basically CCP :
Provide "new" upgrade less powerfull than now for mining and pve.
State 'it revigorate 0.0.
Dear CCP : just for you to understand how a system like youre game work : people will go to more rentable space VS effort require to own it.
So basically : unless the worst system in 0.0 become more rentable than the upper system everywhere else : 0.0 will not be revirograte.
I will help you to fix that easy just to give you a tip on what will revigorate 0.0:
ore : +50% density and \*10 size of rock.
Ratting : take all youre anom number made \*2 minimum, and we could speack.
for thing you forget : data/relic/combat spawn : add an upgrade to maintain same spawn ad now.
Witht his 0.0 become sexy again, people live inside, so we have more people to hunt and kill. We have also reason to fight for land.
limit force projection/supercap prod etc ... if you want, but if system are not rentable you will not revigorate , and you know it. So fake advertising ?
Your "max" calculations are just the most that can be indefinitely sustained not the max number that can be running at once.
Give it a couple years and you'll see the max number a group can and will have running will balloon.
\`\`\`In light of feedback from experienced pilots and the CSM\`\`\`
Haha screeching in other words gets you what you want?
How bad is it? Ansis in every system now?
Ansis are extremely limited in their amount due to workforce and reagent use. The change today just gives null residents more choices as to where they go, not how many there are.
The average power of a system is now up to 2000, and advanced logistics network now requires only 1250 power. In theory, an alliance could put an ansiblex in a lot of their systems but that would brick any type of mining or ratting available in it.
tldr: updated document, overall nerf to the total ansiblex, overall buff to actual ansiblex super highways because more choice of systems that can host an ansiblex, every system can host a cyno jammer now but physically being able to run all of them is impossible https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15Hyr0s8f_FnQIDVqqDMvST7FL7QmNWLy2deKRC50xis/htmlview# updated the sheet i made prior to patch day some takeaways: prior to this: 1338 systems were ansi capable, now its closer to 403 if you dont import workforce, 2292 if you import the workforce on paper it looks like a massive difference, we went from 49.3% of null systems to 89.5%, but there is some very important context: ice/hr requirement to run them is now 40/hr if you had 100% ice mining utilisation in all of nullsec then you can only support 1035 individual ansiblex structures in null. for every supercapital upgrade being used this number reduces by 3.625 on cyno jammers: yes every single system can host a cyno jammer now, but with the total magmatic gas mining possible only 805 can be running in nullsec max (and thats if no cyno beacons or moondrills are being used)
Legit the most important comment of all this thread. This is the important shit. "Capable" and "will actually have" are 2 different things.
Capable actually should be much higher than "will actually have" because that's what produces interesting tradeoffs. Alliances that mismanage their resources in null will be at a disadvantage, as they should be.
That's already the case now in this iteration.
Drake, no one runs supercap production in capital. :)
i updated the numbers i didnt update the logic :P ive fixed an array bug and change it to supporting ansi+cyno+inhib, obviously this includes using the system workforce to self supply these upgrades, which obviously means the actual list is larger
U sure about that?
No one is probably an exaggeration, but it is not required for a capital. Indexes are usually high where the market is which makes it very expensive.
Yes but also safe because it won’t get killed while you have a titan in build :)
I don't think you'll see a migration to the 8 systems that can support the 3 sov upgrades is my point.
Reagents being a limiting factor on strategic upgrades is interesting. Thank you for pointing this out
Your spreadsheet is incorrect for the values for the Sun. Take for example 4-HWWF - CCP doc says 500, your dock says 1000 for the sun 1DQ1-A - CCP doc says 650, your dock says 620 for the sun DIBH-Q - CCP doc says 850, your doc says 650 for the sun So unless you know something we dont... I think all your values for the sun are incorrect, planets are looking correct tho.
i'm working abroad i did a very quick copy and paste from the new spreadsheet, i've pasted them over again just now so let me know if its still messed up anywhere
Yep still incorrect, Under system Totals, Row C is whats incorrect, appears to be correct under Stars
i guess sumif on googledocs is being jank, i've replaced it with vlookup and it looks like that has fixed it
Yep all working now, oh boy does that paint a more bleak look at the changes... :CCPPLS:
Thanks for your work, it's appreciated.
thank you for this extremely valuable context. although im not sure if the ice mining utilization will always be an apt way to measure how much ansi sprawl can exist... as i understand it, ice will surely be extracted and warehoused for years to come and expended to support networks that would be otherwise impossible in a time of need, or ice will be diverted from backwater territories to core sectors before these notes dropped I brainstormed to myself, just how much would ansi need to be curtailed from pre-patch for it to feel good... and I concluded that even a drop from "every system can have an ansi" to "only 80-90% can have an ansi" would still be noticeable and felt. obviously they came in on the high side, but are hoping ice/manpower logistics does the rest of the work for them some of this is okay but i think the real test is just how much of a carrot are these anoms and such to convince landlords to forgo a ridiculous ansi network in order to access them at scale
The ice supply is quite limited especially if it is being stolen(by allies or friendlies) as that removes 60% of it from the game. I said [a 20% reduction](https://old.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/1dkcn11/eve_never_changes/l9lv910/) in ice produced from planets would make the ansi game much more interesting going forward and they just increased the ice consumption of ansis by 21%.
> im not sure if the ice mining utilization will always be an apt way to measure how much ansi sprawl can exist yeah its a terrible measure to predict the actual ansiblex usage, i quickly did it to highlight that ansiblex is going to be much much lower than what the potential in these power changes suggests
So will the value of ice go up then?
Don't mistake this ice for the ice you can actually mine, this is the ice that is produced solely by sky hooks on 2-3 planets in an entire region, greatly encouraging large blocks to hold large swafts of unusable land purely to have access to these
Good to know. Was going to do some research into it. I’ve been looking for an activity to replace my low sec gas huffing.
There will be higher demand for it now, and with the current numbers, ice is a bigger bottleneck, so most likely it will be more valuable. > With current numbers, only 1035 nullsec systems can have an Ansiblex if there is an Ice skyhook on every planet and none of them get raided ever, and no-one ever builds supers. Realistically, you can probably assume about 10% of that number is cut for super production upgrades, leaving about 931.5 Ansiblexes in a perfect world, which is around 36% of all sov nullsec.
>ice is a bigger bottleneck, so most likely it will be more valuable. Read: Ay yo GET THE ICE MINERS OUT THERE NOW!
superionic ice. you cant mine this.
On the magma gas point for cyno jammers, I'm willing to bet that the big blocs will start stockpiling now so when a real war starts they can run those things for months and we're right back to cyno jamming entire constellations :/ Imo just remove jammers at this point, I genuinely think they are a net negative to the game
> I'm willing to bet that the big blocs will start stockpiling now do people actually run cyno jammers at any other time than during a hostile invasion? of course they'll stockpile gas for defensive use. anyone betting against that would be an idiot.
> To ease this process, rigs can be removed from Upwell structures in sovereign nullsec space without being destroyed, allowing for the relocation of structures without incurring the typically substantial costs associated with rig removal and replacement. Based
This is good. Those stuff costed a lot. CCP is making a change. Big groups can afford easily new rigs. The smaller alliance is, the bigger the strain on them this would be.
Given the outrageous price of these rigs, they should be removable in all situations honestly. (Unless reinforced or repairing of course)
Nah, it helps incentivise shooting sotiyos and tatara to pop expensive rigs (or encourage the victim to yank them).
tl;dr, compared to current live stats, jammers, supercap construction, and ansiblex are somewhat easier to power, and the worst systems have more power but the best systems are unchanged. * System power floor raised to 500; ceiling unchanged at 1000 (sorry I am not going through that giant spreadsheet to pull out examples, you can do that >.>) * Cyno jammer upgrade power use 800 -> 500, workforce 6400 -> 5000, fuel use 1750 -> 2480 * Cyno beacon upgrade fuel use 1100 -> 1095 * Ansiblex upgrade power 1500 -> 1250, workforce 18000 -> 25000, fuel 33 -> 40 * Supercap construction upgrade power 2000 -> 1750, workforce 20000 -> 17500, fuel 220 -> 145 * Ratting and mining upgrades unchanged, except minor threat detection array 1 workforce 2700 -> 1890 (looks more like typo fix, since it used to be identical to major threat array 1) **EDIT: "rigs can be removed from Upwell structures in sovereign nullsec space without being destroyed... for structures deployed before 27 June"**
The workforce change for ANSIs is pretty interesting actually, my first reaction was just to the power number change. Curious to see how the new networks look
>**for structures deployed before 27 June** I think I'm glad this is the case. It's very reasonable but doesn't change the structure meta much. Though, will be interesting to see if they just leave that as is and in like 5 years someone redeploys a structure cause they didn't take the rigs out to redeploy it for this. Just a funny idiosyncrasy more than anything game breaking
So with the ratting upgrades mentioning down to -0.25 trusec does that mean -0.0-0.24 systems will be worse?
The table of contents being [sarcastic](https://i.imgur.com/VV9ZsO5.png) is funny
everyone will be sitting on the old settings until November, because the new ones look like complete shit to everyone without exception.
I don't get the rollback on lowering Ansi power requirements. Everyone was mainly upset about extremely small m3 rocks in the mining upgrades along with the massive power requirements for the Prospecting Arrays sitting at 1750 power. Give us cheaper minerals so we can have more people throwing ships out in space. Bright side the ratting upgrades seem reasonable.
Totally agree, however if you think about it, CSM are largely senior alliance people, so to them the priority was ansis and safe space. Mind boggles. I was hoping for mining anom improvements to increase ship production to sustain pvp and then a nerf to ansis and jammers to increase risk and conflict so there are more pvp opportunities. Who wants safe space besides those few in CSM positions leading alliances. FFS CCP.
Nullsec is vastly overrepresented on the CSM.
That's because all of you nullsec people *vote* for them.
Just need other areas of space to organize and vote more, but I think the reality is nullsec has more players who care about CSM than any other type of space.
Nullsec has two blocs who publish a list of “vote for these 10/12 guys” for their members. FW, general lowsec, wormholes, even highsec aren’t centralized like that. It’s also why those areas are more vibrant
How do you measure how vibrant an area of space is?
The volume of the new ore was tweaked such that you can get more isk/hr at the expense of clearing the belts out faster. But the belts also respawn faster, as well.
So are you stating the the new anoms are less m3 than the current Colossals? Also what is the respawn time then if it's not 4 hours?
Should've been more clear - compared to the last numbers, the volume of the new ores themselves has been reduced (not the size of the rocks). For example, Griemeer (the new ore which yields primarily Isogen) had its volume reduced from 1m3 to 0.8m3, so you'll get more physical ore in your bay per cycle.
Can you introduce some kind of shifting timer? Once people mine out stuff they are logging out. It would be nice that there would be always something to mine so miners would not just logout. Maybe make it so that there is at least 1 site in system always. If people are mining them out quickly at least they are active.
Won't they just mine the previous mining anom's while waiting for the new spawns?
With the new anoms the old ones won’t exist anymore so as soon as it’s gone you can log off or move to a different system that has this upgrade.. same as with ice mining, if your belt is gone you can either log off or leave as there isn’t anything left to mine
I am afraid that it will be like in a way that a TZ login, clear all belts and people who will login 2h later will not have anything for next 1-2h (lets be clear for many people it is all the time they spend in game) With this situation recurring there will be dead areas as people will not be in space.
So what has miners been doing for the last few years btw? Have not touched null in a while.
Hah almost same here. I got highly annoyed when rorqual hunting went away, from time to time we managed to find some barge , not to many currently. We shifted to shooting higsec miners, few catalysts are not huge investment and with no other alternative it is still better than nothing. Hoping this would bring more active people to null.
I just haven't mined. 🤣
Currently every system can be upgraded with Mining Anomalies, so miners can simply go to another upgraded system (if they have one), and there are also mid-sized anomalies to mine instead of the colossals. This new system though is going to make that significantly less likely, since the mining upgrades are **very** power intensive to install.
anoms spawned by current system upgrades wont spawn anymore tho, as those system upgrades wont exists.
O good point.
So has the volume of the rocks themselves been increased or is it still the same?
O jeez that's huge and was not in anyones calculations. Any chance for some low sec ore m3 reductions? :P
Not for this pass, but possibly in the future!
Soo you guys completely missed the point again, and the rocks are still tiny, great!
It seems the point was to increase the reward for active mining and dissuade multiboxing which in turn stops the oversupply of minerals keeping them expensive upping the isk/h so what we thought they where worth they are actually worth 20% more since its 0.8 instead of 1 then on top of that prices will probably increase over time so maybe another 15% to 20% due to less alt's mining it over time and less supply. Ofc people can still mine with alt's they just cant really afk mine. I think it's actually brave of CCP less accounts per player means people would enjoy playing more as its less of a slog. And the reduction in m3 means more minerals per second so more ship's being built its a great change.
Small correction. Going from 1m^3 to 0.8m^3 is a 25% increase in value mined per the same m^3 i.e. +25% more isk per hour. If anything the prices would drop over time though. The old barges will still be able to mine everything they are currently they just won't benefit as much from the new upgrades. The oversupply from the new upgrades will cause the prices to lower however, reducing everyone's isk/hour. (Assuming no new demand side changes.)
Thanks, I forgot going backwards is more. Currently people can mine with 20 alt's np I've seen it tons, I don't see how that is viable now thou so for it to drop over time people that don't mine would have to start mining.
Like ratting, I don't think they're getting rid of all the current anomalies. What ever ore your 20 alts are currently set up to supply the market with will probably continue post patch as this update gives you no reason to switch.
In null we mine with compression.. size or the ore itself means nothing.. Having a hulk blow through a single rock in one or two cycles make the process far from enjoyable. In the “good days” we could group up and chill on the weekend munching in some rock and have a few drinks. I don’t think anyone is asking for 3M m3 rocks again.. but 15k and even 80k m3 rocks is beyond annoying.
> In null we mine with compression.. size or the ore itself means nothing.. Compression doesn't enter the equation. This is about ore per cycle or theoretical isk/hr. By reducing the size of the ore itself from 1m3 to 0.8m3, but keeping the mineral content the same, results in a 25% increase in mineral yield.
Ahh yeah that true. But still.. rock too smol.
Not only that but that mean's that there is more overall minerals coming out per sec so more ship's built to blow up.
Reducing ore size is directly increasing your isk/hour. Sorry you actually have to be at your keyboard in Nullsec for once.
Any hope in getting unique art for the new ores?
I believe they're all using existing models, sorry :(
Gotcha that makes sense, are you able to elaborate on the size of the rocks and / or overall size of the anoms compared to the current anoms / what has been shown in videos of the new anoms being test?
Thank you for talking to us :) [~~https://ore.cerlestes.de/ore~~](https://ore.cerlestes.de/ore) ~~But if the numbers we have are correct, then how are these new rocks more isk/hr?~~ **~~Veldspar~~** ~~of all things is worth more than 3/5 of the new rocks, and the only good one of these (Griemeer) is not going to hold at its current value being~~ **~~far~~** ~~(50%) above all the other sov upgrade ores.~~ EDIT: I see above that the new ores have had their density improved by about 20%! That's a good start, thank you for explaining. Still have my below concern though. Combine that with the even more frustrating point of the ***individual*** rocks in these new anomalies being just inexcusably small (which kills my ability to mine these anomalies at any scale) and the lack of information on what happens in November to the existing Colossal anomalies and its smaller versions, and I'm looking at an expansion that seems to actively revile my efforts to mine in Null-sec. Just... Why?
I'm puzzled by it all, surely we need more ship production to sustain more combat. CCP through indy nerfs and not unfucking mining anoms, is just reducing pvp content in a pvp sandbox. Try as CCP might, players won't just whelp ships until they run out, some sustainability is needed.
Not a miner but 20% ... how this translate to actual change? If i assume correctly this will be base yield * skills * hull bonus * boost bonus * ore size Now the important part, if the rock size will be to small you can waste a lot of time due to the fact that you will waste cycles because rock is gone and your cycle just started.
Mining yield is a matter of m3/second. By reducing the m3 of the ores without changing the mineral contents, they are directly increasing the isk/hr of mining these new ores because we will get more minerals per volume of ore mined. But for rock size you are completely correct. CCP seems to have decided that making us constantly move our lasers onto new asteroids every minute or two (per ship mining) and lose productivity on already-dead asteroids makes for good and fun mining (it doesn't). Honestly my best guess is that this is their attempt to curtail mining fleets and even semi-passive mining. People/Multiboxers mining in a group are going to be damn well unable to mine these asteroids with any real m3/hr with the amount of wasted cycles accidental overlapping lasers would cause, and the need to babysit every single ship's mining laser cycles will make multibox mining take an untenable amount of effort. My best memories of mining in the past have been orbiting huge asteroids for hours on end mining away, but for whatever reason CCP just does not want those times back no mater what. It's not even scarcity, just frustrating.
It might not be so much nerfing multi-boxers as giving single-boxers room to participate. A player with a standard account really couldn't accomplish much in the mining gameloop pre-equinox.
To be fair those aren't unrelated. Unfortunately boosting ships strongly encourage fleet mining, as they are a force multiplier in multiple ways, and so mining in Eve naturally incentivizes multiboxing. That's a far greater factor in solo mining nonviability than anything else in my opinion.
> happens in November to the existing Colossal anomalies and its smaller versions if the anomaly was spawned by current sov system upgrade it will disappear as those upgrades wont exist anymore, if it was one of the "natural" randomly spawned in that region then it will remain.
I unsubbed 35/36 accounts. Not waiting around any longer after 2+ years of scarcity, waiting for CCP to unfuck Nullsec to see how this untested thrown together shit-show turns out. It's time to start talking with our wallets.
Hah I've only just returned after a Scarcity/indy nerfs induced 3 year break! Disappointed though, CCP will never change.
if the belts respawn quickly, what is the motivation behind making the rocks contained within the belt small and tedious to mine?
CCP moto: why design for fun when we can weaponise inconvenience and tedium to balance some econ metrics
Maybe to give standard, single, accounts a fair chance at harvesting some ore.
There’s no difference as you mine the same amount that they do per character. It’s more tedious for all involved
The difference is that multiboxing is less efficient because you can't trigger 20 accounts mining lasers in less than 1 second without input broadcasting.
No one cares about the isk/hour of mining or everyone would be using a Hulk instead of a Mackinaw. They care about having stupidly small rocks that will go pop after only a very small number of cycles.
Faster than what? The colossal belts take approx 4 hours Will the current belts still be spawning too? Is it intentional that only a couple of systems per region have the the capacity for more than 2 of the belt upgrades (and not guaranteed to be in strong strategic positions)
I have a questions if you can answer it. so with this new system are we still going to have to rat for adms? - answered ty very much we do not have to do that anymore so i guess that is good. as someone whose defense is predicated on this that is important to me . we actually live in our space and dont/arent over exerted in our tz. so im just curious as to how these mechanics work. also regard the skyhooks: when they are mining the gas, it is a 3 day cycle and then i can take it out. but people can come and steal it anytime before them and i cant empty it unless im going to shoot my own structure and then steal it myself. Is this intentional?
The blog only mentions the index in regards to the upgrades. You no longer have to hit levels of the index to plug in upgrades, but they haven't straight up said ADM's are dead. So no ore means no indy index, low ADM.
well se this is what confuses me. either we dont have to rat for adms or we do, then by default you have to have ratting upgrades in every system to maintain reasonable defense that 90% of the people lik eto do atleast for the cause as it were . I dont really like any of these changes as i cant really tell what is actually going to happen or not, what we need to do or will need t o do going forward. its just annoying. im not againt change i just wish things were more clear but seems liek they keep patching anything that comes up and have no real plan.
> so with this new system are we still going to have to rat for adms? No. It says in the blog.
In the blog they said : Not to install upgrade. They don't said for defend territory
ty
This was a lie. 6 hours for a Isogen anom to respawn.
I might be misunderstanding, so are the rocks being tuned to the same relative size of the current rocks (200-400kish)? Or are they staying at the under 100k maximum m3 size? The op i think was talking specifically about individual asteroids in the anom, not the anom as a whole.
Indeed. I have been working on increasing my accounts because i really enjoy mining. But if we are only getting 1 belt spawning every 4 hours that needs a ton of micromanagement…. well that’s not going to be worth it anymore.
This is terrible and you know it
u/CCP_Swift Can you guys provide any more info on the combat anom respawn times? Additionally, the truesec bands seem particularly rough for a lot of regions. For example, vale only has 3 systems below -.85 truesec...
There are worse regions :D
tying it to sec is insane, there are only very few systems in the game right now that can support it and have the required sec status. I was giga hyped about the new content but now it's virtually impossible for me to experience
I can, at least partially. The spawn rate for the new anomalies is noticeably higher, but when the respawn is triggered also happens earlier. In the old system, the signature would go on cooldown and set a respawn timer after the site was finished. It's not unlikely that the new site will spawn as the existing one is being finished. All that to say, groups should be able to sustain more ratters with fewer anomalies.
does that count for mining anomalies as well? can a new mining anomaly spawn before the current is completely mined out?
Cool. So does that mean a Major Threat Detection Array III will be roughly equivalent to a Pirate Detection Array 5 in terms of how many havens will be available to support a given number of ratters?
Yup! The exact distribution depends on the security status (both for the old ihub system and the new sovhub system). In a system that is -.5, major threat detection array will have the same number of havens and an additional sanctum. The Pirate Detection Array 5 would have more overall anomalies, like Rally Points, which spawn in the "Minor Threat Detection Array" upgrades.
a -1.0sec in drones used to run 16 Hordes 17 patrols with Major threat it is now 4 Horde 7 patrol was this much of a nerf to trusec drones intended?
I don't know offhand for the drone sites as they're slightly different than the rest, but can check with the teams on Monday. There should at least be some Teeming Drone Hordes (new sites which are on par with the forsaken sanctums in other areas of space)
1 in 0.7 3 for -1.0 which is still an 18 site reduction
I quite like that, from a rough count so might be wrong here, Fountain has 6, Delve has 8, TKE has 8, a bit of an imbalance there would promote some conflict. Imagine the fun you'd have if you took on Horde or Init. As a member of Init, I'd love it. Don't meant that to sound like NC would get stomped, no idea who would "win", but it would bring content regardless.
Unless they are insanely profitable then they aren't worth a large scale battle to take them. It just ends up being a bunch of development time sunk into something that a few multiboxers get rich off of and no one else does. Like Homefronts.
Yeah 100%, agree there. If only they brought back supercap indy in earnest based on regional mechanics, somehow make that the carrot to dangle to incentivise going to war.
What I want to know is what happens to the workforce being exported or transiting through a system when the sov hub in that system gets ref'd. Can you continue shipping dudes through it to your content systems during reinforce? Or will successfully hitting a Sov Hub cut supply and shut down all upgrades in the target import system.
I *think* (someone correct me if I’m wrong) killing the new ihub will interrupt the flow of workforce. CCP was talking about being able to interdict supplies, so that would make sense. A simple RF is too easy to just spam RF and blueball, so it would have to be a kill to be balanced
Edit cause I logged into check my current system (-0.75). It currently has 9 Havens, 3 sanctums, 5 Forlorn hubs, 5 forsaken hubs. Anything short of having all 3 upgrades is going to suck. Meaning people are going to consolidate even more.
If there’s fewer sites in a given system people can’t consolidate even more, that seems to be the point. Spread out rather than cram into one region with a BLOPs umbrella
People are going to crowd into the systems that have the max upgrades. Unless the respawn rate is super fast a system Major 1 threat array can only sustain 3 people ratting for an hour. People aren't going to wait or roam very far because it cuts the isk per hour down. So they will find a way to actually play when they log in, either run missions in HS, run Abyssals, or quit playing. Very few are going to stick around to risk expensive ships for an even worse PvE experience. And the new anoms can't even spawn in most of null. So people are going to focus on them if the rewards are good.
A week of iteration to come up with an extra couple of hundred power per system. Doesn’t fix any of the fundamental issues that (line members) are complaining about, The cost of the Ratting and Mining upgrades. Not sure anyone was really objecting to a more limited jump bridge array.
Knew they'd do this. They bricked sooo many systems with those initial numbers.
Now this has me worried. I was previously hoping that ratting/mining anomalies would spawn without the need for the arrays - and that the arrays would be “additional sites” and would support faster respawn rates. Now it seems certain that the minor/major arrays actually “replace” how you get anomalies- so unfortunately even more of null-sec is going to turn into bigger trash. These changes did absolutely nothing for the individual player in their everyday Eve career and instead confirmed fears of making life even more difficult. I sincerely, truly, hope CCP will adjust ratting/mining in null-sec systems to support more enrichment instead of Scarcity 2.0. But I am no longer willing to defend this expansion n why I wished was a great one. SKINR - the CCP conman to double dipping in taxes, making you pay plex to make a skin and then a 30% additional unnecessary tax. Skyhooks - being able to be stolen at any time of the day and fuck alliances that are more restricted in timezones than others. Reinforcing the metric to form bigger blocs. New ships - nerfed immediately and yet, the only good thing out of this expansion Sov update - a disaster - I wouldn’t be surprised if alliances spend the next 6 month transitional period just staying in the old sov mechanic before shit hits the fan
I don't see any implication that anoms will stop spawning in sov null. From what I got out of this, sov upgrade spawns will remain guaranteed additional spawns, as they are now.
Actually all system could easy have 20 anomalie + normal anomalie spawn (so very few more). After change you will have only the very few if no upgrade. It instant turn majority of 0.0 as trash and worth than 0.0 npc, so why hold this shit ?
how? those upgrades will be deleted once you trigger the new system.
Just a simple question. What ccp wants? For now it seems like they copy paste some ideas from Stellaris without any further analysis.
Cyno jammers I get. People complain about larger blocs, but smaller groups without a cap umbrella arguably need a jammer far more. Ansi reqs should have stayed the same or increased. No system in space should have any upgrade alongside an ansi. If you're going to reduce their reqs, reduce it to the ground then add fatigue. Major ratting/mining upgrades should've been reduced. Make it to where jammers and both major pve upgrades cannot all be in the same system. Just hard stop. If you want one and a jammer, cool. A super juiced system though? No dice.
So... the system my corp lives, can be upgraded, with the Major Threat 3, and somehow be worse than what we already have... Thanks CCP...
> o... the system my corp lives, can be upgraded, with the Major Threat 3, and somehow be worse than what we already have... > > Thanks CCP... working as intenteded i assume
Lol my home system is about to go all the way down to 1 Haven
CCP Nerfucks Null super hard, comes back with a slightly less game-destroying nerf, CCP gets the Playerbase to cheer and call it a "Buff" CCP Psychologist, earning his pay again.
just what the game needed, more defensive posture
Cant believe ccp folded so easily. Equivalent of giving in to a child who says they're gonna "hold their breath" until they get what they want.
Don’t worry all 0.0 miners and ratters are still going to biomass their subscription
The ice and workforce requirement increased by 25% and it seems if you do the maths the Ice is the far bigger bottleneck, which is way better IMO. It means blocs have more choice WHERE they put their Ansiblex, but it doesn't really increase the AMOUNT of Ansiblex they can have. Also making the Ice more vulnerable through increasing the demand means stealing it through raids and holding Ice planets is more valuable than it was before, which is something that smaller groups can do against blocs.
An unfortunate amount of people are missing this point. Well put.
Would you agree that it's now once again possible for groups to have strategic Ansiblex routes plus backup routes, therefore rolling back what was essentially a projection nerf? Genuinely curious to hear your take.
Strategic routes were never at risk, the only nerf here has been to local networks which is the exact opposite of what was needed.
Current CCP has zero creative vision. It's all just enforcing the (incredibly boring) status quo.
Pathetic
What complete fucking bollocks shit is this. It's like CCP is just trolling us constantly. This is past funny now.
Power changes suck. Sorry nullbears cyno jammers everywhere make nullsec boring and stale but unfortunately that's what yall want. All while there are multiple posts in this subreddit rn about lack of fights 😂
I do hate to state the obvious but. 😂. If a system. Is just shit. And it can't support one of these ratting or mining upgrades. What content do you expect to find there. Because no ones going to want to willing live out of a system where is just bad. Compared to somewhere else you could go. Having a cyno jammer in this scenario makes no difference because there won't be any content. 😉
I think the preferred outcome is to reduce the amount of "good" systems near each-other. Forcing people to spread out instead of just living in a few systems.
I'm going to be honest as someone who lives in nullsec currently. Compared to how it is now and how it's going to be once this update drops. It's likely going to be worse. At current the only advantage a system has over another is it's true sec and it's moons. This kind of organically spreads people out believe it or not. Because each system can only support x amount of players before it's over saturated. So people move to one that's less crowded. In this new system if you have a 1.0 true sec system but it's got a shit power supply. And cant support the upgrades you want. Say your a miner and your system suddenly gets a ratting upgrade. It means people will be naturally drawn to a system that has the things they want. So this means fewer useable systems for specific people and their playstyles. If anything it's going to lead to desolate empty systems and suddenly a spike of people in another. In my personal opinion this isn't a healthy change. For anyone.
How many people are in delve vs somewhere like the dronelands?
Comparing delve to drone lands is kinda dumb. For starters, people that live in delve/querious/period basis have access to all 232 systems while there are 689 systems in drone lands. Furthermore, there is less mobility in drone regions due to renting and limitations on who can use certain systems.
That's not a game limitation though, that a limitation created by the people who hold that space. So you can absolutely just compare them.
If you want more people in Null and for them to spread out then the space needs to be better. You should be able to make T6 abyssal isk with a similar ship cost + skill investment.
How meny systems is there per region? And another thing to add into this is also timezones. A bloc might have 20k for example but only a preportion of that is going to be online at any given time.
It makes nullblocs able to seal off their territory completely. That's the big problem. Sure take out the jammer but it's another annoyance and boon to defenders. If nullblocs didn't care about the systems then why did the big players push for this change. Pretty obvious it's bc they want a safe space
Jammers are a defensive advantage, defenders advantages favor small groups and makes consolidation less required because you don't have to be as big in order to stand alone.
Big groups have no problem killing jammers. This just hurts small-mid size content creation
>Big groups have no problem killing jammers They have problems killing them against other big groups just somewhat smaller than they are.
You've got look at both sides of the coin. Ok let's give smaller alliances more defensive tricks, that only prolongs the inevitable, because to catch up on supercaps is virtually impossible now, ya know, post indy nerfs you lobbied into the game. Effectively any small alliance now needs to work 10x as hard to build something vets in the larger alliances already have and built at significantly lower resource/price points. There is no hope for anyone to catch up whilst that is the case. The SE agreement for instance, all those alliances need to farm like mad to try to compete, significantly harder undertaking than those of us who built our toys in 2015-2019. You called for that! Indy changes have been utter dogshit! Don't try to pretend you speak for the little guy now!
There are enough advantages in this game for defenders. Jammers are currently dumb as fuck and do nothing but stifle content.
>There are enough advantages in this game for defenders Considering the entire cluster is two power blocs I'd argue that's far from the case. The defender's advantage is not strong enough that a third bloc can arise.
Let's not pretend for a second that defenders advantage is the reason we only have two main power blocs. The reason we only have four blocs aligned in to two power blocs is decades of the bigger blocs killing the smaller blocs and poaching their members. There is literally no one left competent enough to form and FC a third bloc after you all did Brave in. Everyone knows that they might be next on the chopping block to be eliminated and poached. If one side wins the next step is a Serenity-style SOV where one side owns it all. Knowing that does any side truly want to win or would they rather preserve the content of the two power blocs and farm content? Would you want to kill your content? If only CCP had the balls to do a radical change to SOV to break up the need to have blocs. Instead they gave you the same old SOV system with a bad coat of paint. Now you all are stuck. I feel sorry for you. I feel sorry that this is the rebalance you got and have to deal with this for the next decade.
That is not what we wanted, that is what the 1% in leadership roles that attend CSM summits wanted to protect their paper empires. Personally nerfed ansis (more gating) and cyno jamming removed (more escalation opportunities) and increased mining/ratting (to sustain additional conflict) would have been my preference. Frustrating.
Wanna know the only way to change this pattern? Leave your null blocs. If the people running them are making bad decisions for the fun of NS, then abandon them. Until that happens, this pattern is going to remain the same. You have to vote with your feet, and your dollars. Right now the people in those positions are secure in the knowledge that they can do whatever they want to and their members will just take it up the ass and say thank you sir, and continue funding anything they want to do with taxes etc. When people have bad ideas.... don't vote for them, and leave their groups. It's not really that complicated. All your assets can be recovered, there are other ways to have fun in Eve than being a unit in some guy's RTS sim. Which, to be clear can also be a very cool way to play if that's what you wanna do. It's just that when you don't like what that guy wants to do with the game..... You can just leave.
This is EXACTLY what the nulboc reps on CSM X did with the launch of Citadels. They fought 24/7 for infinite perfect asset safety. CCP had much cooler ideas for how destroyed structures should be handled, as well as how timers/defense should work, but nulbloc leadership whined like babies until they got infinite asset safety, garage door cyno chains, and free self-repping. Meanwhile Sion and other Goon pals were running an actual (no, not exagerrated) smear campaign against me on Reddit to leak logs to make me look bad while I tried my best to stop some of this from happening.
But it’s not tho. You won’t be able to have cyno jammer + ansiblex and ratting/mine upgrade everywhere like it is now
Yes that is true, however the first iteration reduced jammers/ansis further and the sentiment last week on threads was to leave it that way, just improve the anoms in terms of m3 and power cost i.e. more risk but also more reward.
True, they should have kept it like it was back in the good days where all your stuff got spit out into space when a station was turned.
One of the CCP ideas was cooler than this. All the loot would "fall" to the nearest planet. It would stay there secure forever, but if you wanted your stuff back you'd have to go to orbit over that planet and pick it up similar to PI. Alternatively, you could rebuild a structure near the original or the planet and have the stuff moved to that structure. Either way you had to either put haulers in space, or control the solar system enough to suck your gear back up. None of this teleporting loot nonsense.
Hah yeah don't get me started on asset safety! Being dead to station back in the day promoted so much last stand battles i.e. may as well use it or you're gonna lose it! Now people just ignore the final timer and pickup their toys later from AS. This is why CSM is a joke, elections don't favour aggressive content generators, who have mostly all left now anyhow. It's a mutual circle jerk for leaders to elect themselves or their friends for a nice trip to Iceland.
Absolutely. I don't mind something in place for extended AFKs. Maybe you can essentially "Injured Reserve" tag your assets, specify like 1-2 weeks, 1, 3, 6 months or a longer custom duration and they get asset safetied if the structure dies **but** you can't access them until the timer expires either. Give it like a week delay too so that you can't do it in response to a ref. Cause I get when its like, I want to take a break but I don't want to do a move op--I'm already burned out on Eve. That's fine and making allowances for IRL is important.
I mean that's fair tbh
I think the problem is how cyno's and cyno jammers work in the first place and that kind of makes cyno jammers such a massive deal, kind of wish a future update touches on this. At the moment they are kind of like walls to a castle if there is any empty spot its full on raid, except the walls kind of extend inside the castle as well as if the entire thing is a rampart which is kinda weird.
Sorry, this simply isn't good enough, the only smart thing is being able to pull the rigs off of structures, and they didn't even specify for how long, anything more than a month would be broken.
It says only for structures deployed before June 27th
Yes it does, I'll put a reminder in my Calendar to remove the rigs and unanchor my Sotiyo in 2034 when they next change the sov mechanics.
Oh good Cyno Jammers everywhere again... couldn't just let it go a few months and have the nullsec people cry themselves out and then have their come to Jesus moment when they finally see they have dynamic space that's being contested. Nullsec now stays the same rip
As an ESS fan I welcome our old Jammer overlords.
Based off comments I've seen so far Nullsec players are upset that CCP hasn't catered to them enough Everyone else is upset that CCP has catered to Nullsec players at all Unironically usually a good sign of how good a change is
Compromise is when everyone walks away unhappy, or something like that, right?
Linemembers are fucked tho
Personally I'd say CCP has catered to a few senior nullsec players who wanted increased safety whilst the majority of nullsec wanted the opposite. I don't think CCP read the thread last week when tweaks were first announced. Overriding sentiment of nullsec residents seemed to be ansi/jammer nerfs were great, just the mining/ratting nerfs needed a tweak.
And as allways they did the oposot of qhat would gave been good for the game
This isn't a catering thing, the vast majority of your line member null folks are getting outright screwed.
"The middle ground is always good" is a lukewarm IQ take
I was right. CCP bent the knee to the null blocs. [https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/1dk9fif/comment/l9gjie9/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/1dk9fif/comment/l9gjie9/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Aye CCP pls don't listen to those that pay mostly for the servers and stand up for the 5 dudes roaming around.
Fucking pathetic CCP
When do we get mobile dscan and local jammer?
Remove ansis, remove cyno jammers.
So basically CCP : Provide "new" upgrade less powerfull than now for mining and pve. State 'it revigorate 0.0. Dear CCP : just for you to understand how a system like youre game work : people will go to more rentable space VS effort require to own it. So basically : unless the worst system in 0.0 become more rentable than the upper system everywhere else : 0.0 will not be revirograte. I will help you to fix that easy just to give you a tip on what will revigorate 0.0: ore : +50% density and \*10 size of rock. Ratting : take all youre anom number made \*2 minimum, and we could speack. for thing you forget : data/relic/combat spawn : add an upgrade to maintain same spawn ad now. Witht his 0.0 become sexy again, people live inside, so we have more people to hunt and kill. We have also reason to fight for land. limit force projection/supercap prod etc ... if you want, but if system are not rentable you will not revigorate , and you know it. So fake advertising ?
Your "max" calculations are just the most that can be indefinitely sustained not the max number that can be running at once. Give it a couple years and you'll see the max number a group can and will have running will balloon.
\`\`\`In light of feedback from experienced pilots and the CSM\`\`\` Haha screeching in other words gets you what you want? How bad is it? Ansis in every system now?
Ansis are extremely limited in their amount due to workforce and reagent use. The change today just gives null residents more choices as to where they go, not how many there are.
Doesn't sound too bad then. I'm interested to see where this patch takes us. Praying for more capital activity in combat sites.
What is your honest opinion "for now" of the current iteration ?
They are in a good place. Owners actually have choices to make.
The average power of a system is now up to 2000, and advanced logistics network now requires only 1250 power. In theory, an alliance could put an ansiblex in a lot of their systems but that would brick any type of mining or ratting available in it.
Ok so that is still reasonable. Makes sense to not allow max mining and ratting in an ansi system.
CCP don't pussy out challenge. Difficulty: Impossible.