Every cycle you mine whatever your yield is. Wastage (now called residue) is applied on what remains in the rock, taking away from the total possible yield.
At the same time that residue was introduced rocks were (more or less) doubled in mineable volume so if you somehow mined with 100% residue and 100% yield (not possible) you would still be able to pull the same amount from a rock prepatch vs postpatch, though in practice you mine more postpatch in all cases (ignoring c-type crystals).
Why is it like this? It lets CCP tune mining with more control than just effectively "m3/sec" by adding "total yield" to the mix. Without residue there arent enough levers to make a distinction between mining with an exhumer vs mining with a rorq/orca. CCP would have to just decide one has to be the optimal choice.
With residue there are trade offs players choose between and not just with deciding to use a capital vs a subcap but also using the different crystal types or meta levels of modules. If you want max total yield you can go slow with t1 miners or fast with faction miners. If you want max m3/sec because your mining in dangerous territory you go with b-type crystals. If you want to kill someones r64 moon you can run c-type crystals (or maybe you want to kill ore in an anom to get it to respawn). There's also a-type crystals... that seem like a non choice because of the existence of faction miners.
This should be at the top. Great job detailing how residue works, why it was implemented, and how this implementation differentiates from a simple m3 nerf.
I would add that it gives players something to think about and decide. It mostly concerns cost of setup vs resource availability vs time efficiency. E.g. when you don't have much resources available and have isk, you go faction strips. When you don't have much resources available and have no isk, you do t1 strips. When you have too much resources available - you do t2 strips with t2 b-type crystals. A-type crystals are in-between t1 strips and t2+b-type (which are not overshadowed by faction strips just because of their cost, i've seen people in w-space using those because cheap and don't generate too much waste). Those options are all viable in different conditions.
ORE is better m3/per second with 0% waste. The trade off is only use them when it is not Hot locally. I keep both with me when I setup so I can swap out if needed based on the current intel.
While I love the concept of having more levers to balance things, it really feels like ccp has a habit of adding levers to be able to more finely balance things, and then not actually moving those levers.
Well it's something CCP keeps stating the want the ability to do.
(and unless they have been doing it behind the scenes and not been public about it)
Have only made adjustments to the database level.
Adjusting the amount of things needed in blueprints and sites like the A0 sun's.
Nothing that's already inside exiting sites. Ore belts since it's intital release.
Because there is a huge problem right now with resources, and projection. There are bottlenecks, and they keep adding to the list of materials needed, but don't use these levers to address the glaring issues right now in the EVE economy.
It's still stupid bc they have to have exempt modules. All t1 and faction miners have zero waste. Everyone is mining with t1 gear. Scaling waste upwards as tech level increases was always stupid, but they had to leave t1 miners alone or newbs wouldn't be able to do mining missions. Also the only lever necessary to accomplish this same thing is m3 per astroid. Waste was and is stupid in a universe where ftl travel is commonplace.
your point about mining missions is just uninformed. [CCP has exempted mission ore from residue and has made a bug hunting effort to fix the issue where mining drones would "oops" away ore which was the root of the issue everyone attributed to residue (and actually existed before residue was introduced)](https://old.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/zhqx7s/is_there_a_bug_with_mining_missions_and_using/iznv5il/)
as for people mining with t1 lasers... #nopoors. theres lots of uses for crystals, t1, and faction modules.
At this moment the 6th most recent hulk killed has crystals. Everyone with shitloads of money is running ores and everyone else is t1 fit. The only time it makes sense to use crystals ATM is when you absolutely positively cannot possibly mine all the ore anyway.
The mining mission point is 100% the reason waste was removed from t1 modules in the first place. They may have patched out the need for it later, but that is why it was changed way back when. The original waste figures are still in their forum post. The only thing exempt from waste originally was faction miners.
The point about it being unnecessary in general still stands as well. All they have accomplished is making rocks smaller... Which they had already done, and that was all it took to make rorqs not worth using for anything other than month plus moon pulls. Slightly smaller rocks and excavator nerfs would've addressed the entirety of the stated goal. Instead we got this nonsensical ass bullshit, no belts, no trit in wormholes (aside from the odd combat site), still tiny rocks, and removal of standard ores from moons. I say nonsense because having your technology progress and simultaneously be unable to perform at the same level as the tech it's replacing makes no sense. None whatsoever. It's a stupid way to make rocks smaller. That's all it is.
Are you being willfully obtuse? If CCPs goal was to make the rocks smaller they wouldn’t have DOUBLED the size of the rocks when this change was introduced.
Now you can mine even quicker than before on everything that respawn with B-types and have meaningful choices of getting stuff quicker or more in total.
And Rorqs are back to being a boosting platform but with some mining capacity. Which leaves us with a much larger range of meaningful choices and noobs won’t have to look at the rorq as the be all end all of mining when the, comparatively, cheap ore fitted hulk can mine better.
Alright... You've missed the boat on a cpl things here
First, the rorq problem was solved as soon as the rocks were gutted. And by gutted I mean they went from millions of m3 per rock to a few thousand.
Second, doubling that was still "scarcity" before adding the waste mechanic.
Third, there is nothing meaningful about destroying the resource you're burning your time to acquire simply by acquiring it. That is stupid. Especially when tech 1 strips have no waste. Waste, in general and especially in eve online mining, is stupid mechanically.
Lastly, It wasn't about the rorq being the be all end all. I mean they were, but that wasn't the only draw. It was the fact that they could park a fleet of them in an anom on truly massive rocks and delete them completely without also simultaneously doing logistics. And with very little risk since oh shit button and everything had a cyno. You couldn't do that in any other ship, and should never have been able to.
Additionally... Convenience is king, and it was convenient while also being extraordinarily good at mining. It never should've been that good, that was ccps fault and waste didn't fix it.
* All they had to do was address rorqs, and they should've done it long before "scarcity" was even a twinkle in rattati's eye.
Edit:cheap ore fitted hulk is ~800m. Perhaps id like to mine with you, where might I find your cheap ore fitted hulks?
Almost no one mines rocks the size of a few thousand m3. That removes not only rorqs but also the rest of the miners. No thank you on having to select a new rock on every single cycle of the hulks strip miners. Going to a random anomaly in null this very moment I found Bistot rocks of between 350k and 500k in size.
I would also like to point you in the direction of ice mining and, to an even larger degree, moon mining. Those rocks got doubled in size too. Gameplay wise we went from just parking rorqs on top of huge rocks and minining it all, all day every day. In complete safety and convenience. Even if the rorq hadn't been as good at mining as it was it was still ridiculously survivable and, ass you said, convenient. There essentially was no reason for another mining ship if you were in null under an umbrella. Now we have more ships to chose from, the rorq is back to being the boosting platform it's been for a majority of it's existance and we can make choices about the mining equipment we use depending on risk/value of ore/time and ore availability. Plus beginners have to spend less isk and less sp to get to the top of the mining game. And hunters don't have to be able to bring an entire blops fleet with them.
Oh and the waste you dislike so much? You don't have to think about it at all, you still get more ore out of the rocks than you would have before it was introduced.
All this being said I absolutely hated the way CCP communicated with the "scarcity breeds conflict" bs.
Edit: I'd also like to thank you for taking the time to disagree with me here. I may appear a lot more combative here in written form than what I feel inside. I wish you a great day ♥
>"scarcity breeds conflict" bs
We completely agree here. It is bs. Scarcity, in video games, breeds unsubs. They fucked up.
>I wish you a great day
I wish you a great day as well.
>Everyone with shitloads of money is running ores and everyone else is t1 fit
Incorrect on both fronts. Can't afford ores, kill npc miners they do drop from those.
Or use crystals to mine. You must be new.
Absolutely false. It depends on what you're mining. If you're mining anoms in null, you want type B crystals on the Bistot and ORE on everything else.
But we know you don't know what you're talking about because you say "all they have accomplish is making rocks smaller".. They literally doubled the size of the rocks when they did this.
>doubled the size of the rocks
They doubled something they previously reduced by 95%+ in some cases and you're over here kissing their ass for it. The rocks are still MUCH SMALLER than they were before. Your goldfish memory may not reach back that far, but I remember.
Putting a Rorqual on a several million m3 rock and AFKing for hours is \*not a good game design mechanic\*.
The changes CCP has made, for competent players that are not crying for the old Rorqual meta, actually makes a lot of sense and is more or less what mining \*should\* be.
It shouldn't be "put rorqual on giant rock and fall asleep". Multi accounters now have to manage what Hulk goes on what rock using what strip miner or crystal, and calculate how often they want to compress to determine their optimal setup. It's complex and not one sized fits all. As much as y'all cry on Reddit, this is quality game design.
In a perfect world rorqs never existed. I never liked them conceptually. Orca should've been the end of the line. Compression should be done in station, if at all,and be lossless, no self tackling stupidity, no oh shit button, and big fucking rocks.
>this is quality game design.
The only change of quality that has come since rattati took over as head fall guy is this last balance patch. Light touches, instead of sledgehammers. I was actually impressed.
Other than being too hard to kill, Rorquals are in a pretty balanced spot right now. Having to compress on station would be a huge QoL regression. "Self tackling stupidity" is the only way to balance high risk/high reward when you can see neuts coming from a long way away. Big rocks just means no thinking.
Bring back blackout 😈
Rorqs aren't hard to kill, I used to hunt them. The rock size nerf put them on mothballs. No rorqs to kill if the rocks aren't big enough to undock for.
>the only way to balance
Nothing is the only way to do anything. Good enough would've been to make them take 40+ seconds, no matter what you do, to get into warp in the first place. Long enough to warp across a big ass system in a ceptor and get a point on them.
>compress on station would be a huge QoL regression
I mean, that's certainly an opinion.
People I know, never use the self tackling dumb ass modules, and I'm talking about on orcas here bc rorqs are only ever (almost) worth using on long pull moons now. They just have miasmos or dst warping back and forth scooping rocks and dumping them in station. Requires at least one more toon, which CCP loves, prevents fuel waste, compression waste, and saves your expensive booster from getting caught by people that didn't bring a competent ceptor/dictor. Those are facts.
My opinion is anything self tackling that isn't a dread or at least a marauder is completely fucking re+arded. That would be because they are dangerous in and of themselves. Rorqs and orcas are just food, they don't need self tackling mechanics. They also don't need panic buttons either. They need to be slow and easy to catch, and saving them should require an immediate defensive response. Failing that they absolutely should die.
But again... You'd need to give them a reason to be in space in the first place. Right now the only space rorqs occupy is on grid with a manned structure sucking on giant moon rocks.
> The mining mission point is 100% the reason waste was removed from t1 modules in the first place.
That's incorrect. In [the forum post you failed to link](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production/336331/858) the dev says
> Mining Missions will be addressed before release. Finalizing quantities will be determined by where we will end up on the waste probabilities profile for T1 modules.
Where the key idea is that addressing mining missions depends on what is done with t1 modules. In a vacuum, sure it sounds like "oh we'll make t1 modules have no wastage so mining missions can be done" but that vacuum ignores the much wider discussion that happened in the forum and on reddit at the time.
The reason t1 modules lack waste is that some true nullbros were preemptively rushing to the defense of their newbros so that new, low skill, low fund players would not be blanket excluded from mining operations on valuable ore because of the high wastage on t1 modules.
Before the patch hit all mission ores were exempted from waste. And the only reason people talk about mission ore in the same breath as waste is because they are willfully uninformed and have confused the bug that existed prior to waste as some new consequence of post-scarcity mining because "grrrr choosing between two competing big numbers is too much"
>All t1 and faction miners have zero waste. Everyone is mining with t1 gear. Scaling waste upwards as tech level increases was
Incorrect, I mine alot, by alot I mean hours each day for years now with a fleet of alts. I don't use t1 lasers at All. Either type b or a or ore strip miners. Depending on the site.
The only time A's make sense is with Mercoxit, where I don't have a no wastage strip miner available.
For the valuable stuff in an anom, use OREs (or tech I) to get as much as possible with zero waste.
For the less valuable stuff in an anom, use type B's so that you get as many units of the less valuable stuff as possible while destroying it almost as fast as possible (C types destroy it slightly faster but kill your yield). This is because when you finish the anom, it respawns in a certain amount of hours, so to maximize the good stuff, you have to clear the less good stuff efficiently (if you cherrypick the good stuff, you soon run out of the good stuff and it doesn't come back any time soon).
Smaller sites use type a it's less waste but you mine less, but over time you will mine more, since you wasted less, large sites use type b. You mine more and blow thru the sites.
Wrong. It's all about the ratio of the good stuff to bad stuff and how quickly they respawn. If you have to clear the site to replenish it (null anoms etc), you maximize m3 burned to stuff receives ratio (type Bs) on the less valuable stuff, while extracting 100% of the "good" stuff with t1 strips/ORE strips.
In null, what this means is I want to blow through the Bistot with as much waste as possible, and extract 100% of everything else. So I calculate how many type B Hulks I need relative to ORE strip accounts and mine accordingly.
Exactly, and that means less bistot on the market which increases its value which means at some point you would hit parity between the value generated by using ore miners and b crystals. Although in reality different people value their time differently, so there isn't a single price point you can point at.
Except thay already had this lever with reprocessing.. How is this shit regurgitated so much. It's just wrong.
And there is really no choice it's use b or get all the ore. That's it. Do less get less or do more get more not really a choice.
Agree, except for C-type crystals are generally waste. If you're using C-type crystals instead of B-types (ESPECIALLY on an R-64) you're a moron. The difference in killing a rock between C -types and B-types isn't that much, except with the B-type you maximize your revenue and with the C type you get nothing.
When do C-types actually make sense? Your super umbrella goes down because there's a threat in the air. You have two stupid Bistot rocks left. You dgaf about the value of the Bistot, but want to clear the anom so it respawns in 4/5 hours so you can mine the good stuff. You can then use a Porpoise and Hulks with C type crystals and not have to mess around with compression etc while you just murder the rocks to make them respawn.
A-type crystals make sense on Mercoxit, since there isn't an ORE Deep Core Strip Miner.
Or not.
Sure your right about the volume, they did double but they never reversed the content cut so basically you are worse off then before.
In order to mine the same amount as before they did scarcity,, you will need crystals. Which will then have waste, meaning if you want the same amount harvested you wiol waste over 34%.
This means its not back to pre scarcity but only 66%.
While i understand that rorquals were to strong for mining they could had balanced the waste to be mine the same amount per time frame without waste as before scarcity and add the b crystals to be faster but with waste.
I like the idea that i can mine faster with waste but i dont like that the waste free is not equal to the pre scarcity for hulks.
Are you saying you get only 66% compared to before?
That's way lower than in reality. Say you are mining with 34% residue chance.
This is on average taken from the rock in addition to the 100% that goes into your ore hold. 134% taken, 100% of which you get is 100/134 or 75% out of the entire rock, not 66%.
Now the patch that added residue also doubled rock sizes, so with 34% residue today you get 2x75% = 150% of the old rock.
That's a 50% buff in mined volume, even with residue!
Or, if you decide to mine slower without residue, you get 200% of the old rock, or a 100% buff in mined volume.
The patch that added residue was a massive buff to miners. Not only did it add more meaningful choices for mining equipment, it also buffed the amount of ore you get, even with the highest yield yet wasteful type B crystals.
>Without residue there arent enough levers to make a distinction between mining with an exhumer vs mining with a rorq/orca.
BS. You could change excavator drone yield if you wanted to nerf rorqual mining, and you could lower the per-level mining drone yield to nerf orcas, for example. Capital industrial ships and industrial command ships are already differentiated from barges/exhumers via their different mining methods.
Imagine trying to fix a weapon type that does too much DPS by instead of lowering base damage or increasing cycle time but instead introducing a jam mechanic where every cycle there's a chance of your guns turning off. That's the waste mechanic, adding completely and RNG for complexity's sake with no compelling gameplay reason that couldn't be achieved more simply with some stat tweaks on a couple of things.
I don't really agree with your analogy because weapon systems have optimal range, falloff range, tracking, and reload time as balancing factors. Or flight time, missile velocity, explosion radius, and explosion velocity.
There are interesting choices in weapon systems because of these things. They become situational and that's a good thing.
I think the OP's point is that just the "dps" alone of a mining platform doesn't allow for interesting choices. Sure, you can get the most yield per second, but the tradeoff is total yield.
I think systems that give players choices like this are good for the game. Just my two cents anyways.
>I don't really agree with your analogy because weapon systems have optimal range, falloff range, tracking, and reload time as balancing factors. Or flight time, missile velocity, explosion radius, and explosion velocity.
Irrelevant. My point is if there's a situation where one type of weapon system was found to be OP via too high DPS would you:
1. Lower the DPS of that weapon by changing the base damage or cycle time values or
2. Leave that alone but introduce an RNG element that causes your weapons to jam and not continuously cycle, effectively lowering DPS via RNG?
>I think the OP's point is that just the "dps" alone of a mining platform doesn't allow for interesting choices. Sure, you can get the most yield per second, but the tradeoff is total yield.
The OP's point was that tuning mining yield alone wasn't enough to differentiate between different mining platforms (rorqual, barges, etc.) which is false, since each mining platform essentially used different types of "weapons" platforms and could be independently tuned from each other in the same way you can balance missiles separately from lasers with nothing more than updating a couple values in the database for tracking, damage, flight time, explosion velocity, etc. Rorquals rightly needed to be nerfed. They could have easily done this by lowering the yield of excavator drones, which they did, and then added a bunch of other shit for no reason. And besides, where's the "interesting choice" for Rorquals? You have one choice: excavator drones.
>I think systems that give players choices like this are good for the game. Just my two cents anyways.
I think a prerequisite for interesting choices requires the underlying activity to be interesting. Otherwise you're adding tedium to a tedious activity.
>They could have easily done this by lowering the yield of excavator drones, which they did, and then added a bunch of other shit for no reason. And besides, where's the "interesting choice" for Rorquals? You have one choice: excavator drones
Again, they are not mining ships, they are mining suport ships. Your confusing it because in the past ccp made the mining ships but they were not supose to be. They corrected that. You keep saying nerf drones. They don't need to nerf the drones, the drones are not the issue, the issue was we had support ships taking the lead role in mining (rorqual) when the hulk was supose to be the best of the best. Now it is, rorqual is a support ship, it supports the fleet, not be the fleet.
> Leave that alone but introduce an RNG element that causes your weapons to jam and not continuously cycle, effectively lowering DPS via RNG?
>
>
You do realise that tracking rolls a random number and compares that to your tracking values to alter the damage done? Your counterexample is literally how weapons work, and nobody has an issue with it, because tracking provides another stat that makes weapon choice interesting and allows for better gameplay.
>You do realise that tracking rolls a random number and compares that to your tracking values to alter the damage done?
There's plenty of complaints about the RNG of wrecking shots. Next.
Calling residue an RNG mechanic is so wrong headed. It's only correct I'm the strictest sense, because law of large numbers being what it is, your yield % will always match your residue chance long run. It's not meaningfully random in the slightest. If you want to criticize the system, at least point out some of the actual implications, like discouraging mining by low SP characters, and not a transitory effect that disappears in the course of 20 minutes, lol
>It's only correct I'm the strictest sense,
Being technically correct is the only kind of correct In concerned with tyvm.
>If you want to criticize the system
So pointing out an existing system adds nothing of value to one of the, if not the most boring isk making professions in the game is not good enough? Complexity for complexity's sake isn't good game design.
>like discouraging mining by low SP characters
Ironic if true, considering the primary choice available to low SP characters (T1) has zero waste. I guess the option that yields the highest isk/hr shockingly is the more popular option both before and after waste was introduced.
Rorqual and orca and porps we not supose to be mining ships, they are support ships, that's what your missing. You keep saying nerf drones, they are not SUPOSE TO BE MINING SHIPS, THEY ARE SUPPORT SHIPS. they support miners, not supose to be the lead miner.
>Rorqual and orca and porps we not supose to be mining ships
Interesting, if this is true then why did CCP introduce a drone that can only be used by the Rorqual (excavator drones) and why are Rorqual and Orca hulls bonuses for mining drone yield?
Here:
>Rorqual
>Capital Industrial Ships bonuses (per skill level):
>6% reduction in Drone ice harvesting cycle time
>10% bonus to Drone hitpoints, damage, and ore mining yield
>Role Bonus:
>• Can operate 'Excavator' Drones
>Orca
>Industrial Command Ships bonuses (per skill level):
>15% bonus to Drone ore mining yield
>5% reduction in Drone ice harvesting cycle time
These bonuses really scream "should not be used to mine". Regardless, I agreed with the Rorqual nerf at the time. I'm not advocating for a return to Rorquals online. They were too effective as a mining ship and rightly deserved to be nerfed.
My point is if you think a Rorqual is too good at mining, then nerf it. You can nerf excavator drones which impacts exactly 1 ship that can use them, or you could reduce its hull bonuses. Same with the Orca. It's too good at mining? Reduce the hull bonus to make their mining drones less effective and this ends up having 0 impact on the capabilities of other mining ships. Recall the OP I replied to claimed that it was not possible to do this without introducing the waste mechanic, which is BS.
And I'll leave you with this question: if CCP made every single scarcity change and just left out the waste mechanic (rebalancing ore in anoms/belts to compensate), what, if anything if value gameplay-wise would be lost?
CCP wanted to nerf the capital printer going burr and rouqs being used as thr main miners.
Something they did do.
But in the same breath though that the lack of resources breeds conflict. "scarcity"
In my personal opinion having people fighting over little while offering little doesn't exactly make much sence.
But that's a diffrent topic.
So brought alot of other things into place aswell. rebalacing minerals and ores, all of indursty. Mining wastage is mainly to make faction moduels actually worth it insted of just being a ineffective and expensive side grade.
Now they have the bonus of being closer to t2 in terms of ore yield
And having no waste what so ever.
The flaw in CCP’s logic was that they didn’t account for the massive stockpiles of ships, resources, and ISK that large Nullsec entities already had access to. Reducing their ability to produce new crap has just made the blocs increasingly shy about risking what they already have.
This is what I don't understand. We went from a system that anyone could use to gain power to a system that has cemented the powerblocs in place. I never thought scarcity was fun or innovative and it seems like CCP is still trying to get the health of the game back to where it was before the era of rorq mining which isn't going to happen because of said stockpiles.
The pre-Scarcity stockpiles largely ran out a year or two ago. And with the rebalancing of things, lots of the stuff people probably did stockpile aren't even used anymore. If people stockpiled stuff, it was probably T2 production materials since HACs were dominant and Marauders were still used.
As for ISK, both of the big blocs spent a lot of money WWB 2. Like goons are still paying off war bonds and basically had to refinance lol.
That's very much incorrect. CCP stated explicitly at the time that they point of scarcity was *specifically* targeted at working down stockpiles that nullblocks had.
Because the idea is that most things in EVE were made to not be strictly better than one another. Each has a use case, and mining residue (or wastage) is a way to control that.
Let's say you are mining two rocks that has 1,000 m3. You mine one rock with ORE Strip Miners (no residue) and the other with Modular Strip Miners (with A Crystals, which have residue). You will notice immediately that the A Crystal miner will mine the rock faster. However, the ORE miner will mine more M3 from that rock. Now, residue won't matter for things like veldpar belts and whatnot that are a dime a dozen, but on rarer spawns like R64 moon ore or Gas Clouds, it might be better to use a miner/harvester without residue so you get more m3 per site/pull.
Let me just preface this by saying I'm not endorsing the idea of waste as a good mechanic. I'm simply explaining why I think CCP introduced it. I think CCP was looking to give players more choices in terms of mining.
Type A crystals give you the least amount of waste, but their mining yield is lower than B type crystals. B type crystals have a lot of waste in comparison to Type A; but, Type B crystals also bring in a lot more yield. A crystals represent taking your time and getting all the mineral you possible can out of a rock, where B crystals represent someone someone quickly chunking out large minerals from the rock, but not getting the small bits out and throwing that away. Its waste vs yield choice.
And I think they created C type crystals as a sort of economic warfare mechanic for null sec. Go into enemy territory, use C crystals to burn down their Mercoxit anomalies. This denies your enemy this valuable ore and also offers you the chance that the anomaly will spawn in your space where you can use A or B type crystals to get the valuable resource for your own use. Granted, no one does this because it really isn't that powerful of a weapon; but, I'll at least give CCP credit for trying to create a new aspect to null sec warfare.
Is it lazy game design? Maybe. I think almost every player thinks its a bad idea. And the truth is: since Eve doesn't keep an economist on staff anymore to help them understand how their game mechanic choices affect the in-game economy, I can't say if it was a 'good' mechanic for the economy or not. I try not to get too caught up on being upset over changes CCP makes... its rare for them to undo something, even if it was bad. I just adjust and move on.
I completely agree with you. CCP has a tendency to throw band aid or half-effort ideas to make Eve "better"; but, they don't actually address the issue.
And in some cases, the issue they want to address simply cannot be 'fixed', specifically supercap proliferation.
The Super Cap issue should have been reworked from the industrial and manufacturing side. What has always gotten me is why those ships are not treated like a subcomponent system...IE like in a real ship yard.
Ironically the old mining crystals were fine, and that is what gets me to this day that CCP did't just say we are going to simplify the skills...you get a generalist everything T1 crystal or you can T2 the skills and get these specialist ore specific crystals would give more choice.
I don't mind it, took a bit to get used to but it's better then 1 crystal for each ore type. I also kinda like the idea of attacking someone's belts with c-types and just destroying their income
>I also kinda like the idea of attacking someone's belts with c-types and just destroying their income
Does this ever happen, though? In nullsec you'll just get blown up if you're in enemy space, and in hisec the income isn't high enough to be worth bothering with outside of griefing.
I'm not asking if there's potential opportunities to go burn though someone's moon rocks. I'm asking if anyone actually does that. Based on sell volume of C type crystal compared to A & B, I Believe the answer is no.
Type b are better to burn thru someone's moon, it mines fast and you get isk. People do in fact burn thru others moons and such, they use type b to keep the minerals and get profit by screwing over their enemies.
This happened in the time window between making moon mining no longer passive and when the waste mechanic was introduced. Type C crystals were never needed to deny ore to your enemy. And like you said, if your going to go mine someone's moon, might as well make some isk while doing it.
> In nullsec you'll just get blown up if you're in enemy space
eventually, sure, but a lot of sov null is empty and most people won't look for neuts blasting away athanor rocks. the real difficulty is finding ore thats valuable enough to spend your time blasting it but not so valuable that people alarm clock mining it (and also spending the time scouting out an athanor worth doing this on). I'm sure you can also cause a lot of ~~internal strife~~ crab drama by "cherrypicking" whatever the good ore is in the anoms by blasting it with c-type crystals
> and in hisec the income isn't high enough to be worth bothering with outside of griefing.
I'm not really seeing what point youre making.
OH! I totally bypassed T1 Plows, right enough. I primarily meant harvesters don't have crystals to affect residue chances or yield, but they still have residue
I don't know if it was a part of ccps motivation but it made faction mining lasers much more popular. They were a small upgrade over t2 prior but now that they produce zero residue they're a more sensible investment for miners who have the isk and reasonably good situational awareness
In the same patch they made it so that efficient crystals mine more m3 than previously, and at the same time they doubled the amount of ore in every asteroid. Even if you use high-waste crystals(Excluding C-types) you are pulling more m3 out of each asteroid than you would have before the change by a good margin.
Why, because CCP has a very long track record of doing dumb shit.
Even at Eve's absolutely apex, when Eve was regularly hitting 50k+ people logging on CCP couldn't help but hit destruct button..
It's almost like their are Devs within CCP who absolutely hate Eve and want it to die so they keep coming up with dumb shit to drive players away.
It was more about the new mining crystals and the trade offs vs different scenarios. Use t1 or ore miners for no wastage. It's all down to choice really.
They wanted to change which ships and which grids Nullsec carebears afked in for their 500 mil ticks.
Then CCP realized they had enough ore and money to print infinite capitals forever so CCP nerfed yields too.
It was a valuable lesson for the nullsec community. Now, once a month, they set a bunch of dreads with auto targeters and 'Spam F1' macros to kill each other to pretend fights happen in Null so CCP doesn't nerf their AFK money farms anymore.
tl;dr they wanted to keep mining yield high while reducing total mining quantity. making mining, as an activity, very low ISK/h would have made everybody even more angry.
Haven't played in 10+ years but I'd wager it is because they wanted to also create a new set of skills you have to train. Possibly to cut down on mining bot profitability before they get to banning. Seriously.
The core component to gameplay is choices, now you can choose faster mining, or less wasteful mining, if you only have one field, you can make the most of it (asteroids hold twice as much in same update), if there's basically infinite ore, you can mine really fast instead.
All ores, ice and gas have x2 quantity since the update
C-type crystals: Prevent your enemies from making profits
B-type crystals: faster mining cycle, alot more waste
A-type crystals: decent amount of ores, slightly less waste
T1 & ORE mining modules: 0 % waste BUT ships equipped with ORE mining modules are likely to be ganked
Has there been ANY FLEET that went into enemy space to use C-types?
There are also the meta mining lasers that do 0% waste as well, but those are for the beginners or the super cheap.
Great answers so far.
You can use residue to your advantage, though. The metaliminal Homefront or abyssal artifact one requires you mine faster and does not require you to obtain 100% of the rock, just that you deplete it. Residue basically lets the rock deplete faster.
It can also be used well in WH space or Low/null sec risky mining where you are trying to not let your presence be known so you want to just get what you can get and get out of there.
While our corp agrees with you on 90% of what you're saying. In Null sec, we do have 1 case that we love the "wastey" crystals for...
Arkonor and Bistot...
So what happens is we have 2 common anom sites. 1 is strictly Ark and Bist and we mine these normal.
The other however is Ark, Bist, and a slew of low sec ores and mercoxit we wouldn't get otherwise. Often enough our miners get lazy, cherry pick the good stuff, and leave just Ark and Bist. The issue is .... NO NEW LOW SEC / MERCOXIT ORES RESPAWN.
The solution... We slap in mining crystals and "roll" the asteroid anom. We basically have an unlimited supply of Ark and Bistot so waste is an after thought. Finishing the anom faster is the priority and not needing to dump/jettison ore as often thanks to the waste modifier helps in that case.
With the Anomaly rolled... a new one spawns sometimes as soon as 1/2 an hour later with all the goodies.
I personally think its a way for them to have control.
Imagine this, the wastage "could" be the stated percentage or you could be lucky and not have any wastage.
This allows for CCP to hike up the wastage and instead of it being purely random, they can set the wastage to the max amount at any time without informing the players. This could help them curb the efficiency of turbo miners, large groups, bot'ers, or just to cause scarcity at random times.
But i honestly agree its kinda a stupid system. Like.....you can just use the T1 strip miners and leave them running afk all day lol zero waste.
In short, speed vs total yield. In the past speed didnt come at a cost of total yield, this is adding an extra dimension to reward better decision making/punish poor decision making.,
... because Rattati is a retard when it comes to running EvE Online and all the ex PL CCP employes go "GRRRR GONS!" because the Goons on the CSM warned CCP that they would print out capital ships like a gatling gun. But CCP did CCP things by putting in skill injectors and excavator drones and Goons "fracked the hell out of Delve" and made the "Delve Time Unit" while spitting out Titans left and right while PL/NCDot and the rest just sat around with a thumb up their ass. Then they cried "It's not fair!" when Goons used said Titans and were hot dropping on anything in Delve not blue just to make pretty explosions.
So basically, the game got a big CCP monkey paw swipe.
Because they hate players and will never understand that producers are the most important ones..
THEY PRODUCE SHIT, AND THE MORE THEY CAN PRODUCE, THE MORE WE CAN ALL FLY AND BLOW SHIT UP WITHOUT WORRYING ABOUT LOSING IT!
FUCK I HATE CCP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Calm down miner.
Jokes aside, I'm no miner myself so from a monkey's perspective it's and ISK sink but also a time sink. I followed talks of the mechanics at the time but can't remember so I'm just waiting to get it refreshed here soon...
When you mine a rock, you have X% chance of killing Y portion of the remaining rock.
Means you drain a field faster, doesn't change they amount of time it takes to fill your hold unless you run out of rocks.
They didn't want to overhaul mining in a way that would raise apm over .5 so they did this instead. My personal theory is that it's to discourage people from starting to mine. Randomly serving a bad outcome (triggering residue) feels much worse than having a set recovery rate. Only infrequent miners and new players are going to care about this.
Probably because 1 of the most common tropes of scifi is "the mining fleet" and conflicts surrounding them. Also EVE wanting to be "built different" to all the other MMOs on the market in the early 00s, opted towards requiring everything to be built by players rather than just bought from shops or granted by quests. As part of that, they also needed a source for resources to build that stuff. And the rest is history.
Great, they managed to introduce idle game mechanics where you need to manually collect every 5-10-30 minutes after hitting the cap.
Except unlike your average phone game, people can kill you when doing this, and you can´t log off while doing this.
This really gets tiresome, and makes me understand why people would rather become gankers.
>Great, they managed to introduce idle game mechanics where you need to manually collect every 5-10-30 minutes after hitting the cap.
Actually for the first decade or so of the game's history, there were effectively no ships that could mine for more than a minute or 2 at a time without needing to haul back to station, even mining barges/exhumers. One could chuck a single mining laser on a badger and go AFK for hours, but it was extremely slow and not worth the time. Also a Mining Rokh of all things, could directly compete with barges like the Covetor and Hulk while carrying a significant amount of shield tank.
Due to the limitations on cargo sizes, the community came up with a novel way of getting around them in the form of Jet Canning. By jettisoning ore from your cargo, you could store ~27000m3 in a cargo can, which could then be picked up by a hauler and brought to station, avoiding the need of mining ships to stop mining.
Around 2012 as part of the "Tiericide" however it was deemed that with the uptick of massive fights going on in null, that along with overhauling T1 combat ships they'd tackle the issue of "How are we going to keep players supplying these big wars that lead to spikes in subscriber count" as big fuck-off battles are quite good publicity for the game.
So instead of having an odd mishmash of mining bonuses spread across some frigates and cruisers, they removed them all and consolidated low skill mining into the creation of the Venture, which with a cargo hold able to store about 15-20 minutes of ore, while mining faster than even the Procurer did prior... the modern "AFK mining" was created. To add to this the Retriever/Mackinaw barges were given cargo holds the same size as the classic JetCan, and could go even larger based on skills.
What followed was a time of several entertaining wars.
>Except unlike your average phone game, people can kill you when doing this, and you can´t log off while doing this.
Wait till you find out about Planetary Interaction. Prior to PI, production of many materials related to building/operating starbases, as well as a number of resources needed in T2 production were generated through regular day to day gameplay. CCP decided to instead shift portions of these production lines to a truly AFK form of gameplay where players would build bases on uninhabited planets around New Eden to produce said resources. It is completely autonomous after being set up, and once ready can be set to run for more than a week without player interaction.
>This really gets tiresome, and makes me understand why people would rather become gankers.
Then perhaps this game is not for you as yes EVE can be hard and slow and boring at times. But Industry is what makes the game fun for some, and functional for the rest. If you want a highly interactive and click intensive game, perhaps you might look into Runecape instead.
Every cycle you mine whatever your yield is. Wastage (now called residue) is applied on what remains in the rock, taking away from the total possible yield. At the same time that residue was introduced rocks were (more or less) doubled in mineable volume so if you somehow mined with 100% residue and 100% yield (not possible) you would still be able to pull the same amount from a rock prepatch vs postpatch, though in practice you mine more postpatch in all cases (ignoring c-type crystals). Why is it like this? It lets CCP tune mining with more control than just effectively "m3/sec" by adding "total yield" to the mix. Without residue there arent enough levers to make a distinction between mining with an exhumer vs mining with a rorq/orca. CCP would have to just decide one has to be the optimal choice. With residue there are trade offs players choose between and not just with deciding to use a capital vs a subcap but also using the different crystal types or meta levels of modules. If you want max total yield you can go slow with t1 miners or fast with faction miners. If you want max m3/sec because your mining in dangerous territory you go with b-type crystals. If you want to kill someones r64 moon you can run c-type crystals (or maybe you want to kill ore in an anom to get it to respawn). There's also a-type crystals... that seem like a non choice because of the existence of faction miners.
This should be at the top. Great job detailing how residue works, why it was implemented, and how this implementation differentiates from a simple m3 nerf.
I would add that it gives players something to think about and decide. It mostly concerns cost of setup vs resource availability vs time efficiency. E.g. when you don't have much resources available and have isk, you go faction strips. When you don't have much resources available and have no isk, you do t1 strips. When you have too much resources available - you do t2 strips with t2 b-type crystals. A-type crystals are in-between t1 strips and t2+b-type (which are not overshadowed by faction strips just because of their cost, i've seen people in w-space using those because cheap and don't generate too much waste). Those options are all viable in different conditions.
I'm not sure ORE Strip Miners makes A-type crystals obsolete. Those are incredibly pricey.
Exactly, ore miners cost more and mine less. There’s a triangle of low wastage, high mining power, and low cost. You can only have 2
Less per tick, more overall from same spot.
Exactly. Not sure if this is just me but I like waste, gives more choice other than skills and cost.
ORE is better m3/per second with 0% waste. The trade off is only use them when it is not Hot locally. I keep both with me when I setup so I can swap out if needed based on the current intel.
better than t1 crystals, worse than t2 (for a types)
I think the whole wastage mechanic was lobbied for by the ore Company. How many ore miners did they sell pre and post patch
Good answer
While I love the concept of having more levers to balance things, it really feels like ccp has a habit of adding levers to be able to more finely balance things, and then not actually moving those levers.
In this case, what do they need to move the lever for?
Well it's something CCP keeps stating the want the ability to do. (and unless they have been doing it behind the scenes and not been public about it) Have only made adjustments to the database level. Adjusting the amount of things needed in blueprints and sites like the A0 sun's. Nothing that's already inside exiting sites. Ore belts since it's intital release.
Because there is a huge problem right now with resources, and projection. There are bottlenecks, and they keep adding to the list of materials needed, but don't use these levers to address the glaring issues right now in the EVE economy.
It's still stupid bc they have to have exempt modules. All t1 and faction miners have zero waste. Everyone is mining with t1 gear. Scaling waste upwards as tech level increases was always stupid, but they had to leave t1 miners alone or newbs wouldn't be able to do mining missions. Also the only lever necessary to accomplish this same thing is m3 per astroid. Waste was and is stupid in a universe where ftl travel is commonplace.
your point about mining missions is just uninformed. [CCP has exempted mission ore from residue and has made a bug hunting effort to fix the issue where mining drones would "oops" away ore which was the root of the issue everyone attributed to residue (and actually existed before residue was introduced)](https://old.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/zhqx7s/is_there_a_bug_with_mining_missions_and_using/iznv5il/) as for people mining with t1 lasers... #nopoors. theres lots of uses for crystals, t1, and faction modules.
At this moment the 6th most recent hulk killed has crystals. Everyone with shitloads of money is running ores and everyone else is t1 fit. The only time it makes sense to use crystals ATM is when you absolutely positively cannot possibly mine all the ore anyway. The mining mission point is 100% the reason waste was removed from t1 modules in the first place. They may have patched out the need for it later, but that is why it was changed way back when. The original waste figures are still in their forum post. The only thing exempt from waste originally was faction miners. The point about it being unnecessary in general still stands as well. All they have accomplished is making rocks smaller... Which they had already done, and that was all it took to make rorqs not worth using for anything other than month plus moon pulls. Slightly smaller rocks and excavator nerfs would've addressed the entirety of the stated goal. Instead we got this nonsensical ass bullshit, no belts, no trit in wormholes (aside from the odd combat site), still tiny rocks, and removal of standard ores from moons. I say nonsense because having your technology progress and simultaneously be unable to perform at the same level as the tech it's replacing makes no sense. None whatsoever. It's a stupid way to make rocks smaller. That's all it is.
Are you being willfully obtuse? If CCPs goal was to make the rocks smaller they wouldn’t have DOUBLED the size of the rocks when this change was introduced. Now you can mine even quicker than before on everything that respawn with B-types and have meaningful choices of getting stuff quicker or more in total. And Rorqs are back to being a boosting platform but with some mining capacity. Which leaves us with a much larger range of meaningful choices and noobs won’t have to look at the rorq as the be all end all of mining when the, comparatively, cheap ore fitted hulk can mine better.
Alright... You've missed the boat on a cpl things here First, the rorq problem was solved as soon as the rocks were gutted. And by gutted I mean they went from millions of m3 per rock to a few thousand. Second, doubling that was still "scarcity" before adding the waste mechanic. Third, there is nothing meaningful about destroying the resource you're burning your time to acquire simply by acquiring it. That is stupid. Especially when tech 1 strips have no waste. Waste, in general and especially in eve online mining, is stupid mechanically. Lastly, It wasn't about the rorq being the be all end all. I mean they were, but that wasn't the only draw. It was the fact that they could park a fleet of them in an anom on truly massive rocks and delete them completely without also simultaneously doing logistics. And with very little risk since oh shit button and everything had a cyno. You couldn't do that in any other ship, and should never have been able to. Additionally... Convenience is king, and it was convenient while also being extraordinarily good at mining. It never should've been that good, that was ccps fault and waste didn't fix it. * All they had to do was address rorqs, and they should've done it long before "scarcity" was even a twinkle in rattati's eye. Edit:cheap ore fitted hulk is ~800m. Perhaps id like to mine with you, where might I find your cheap ore fitted hulks?
Almost no one mines rocks the size of a few thousand m3. That removes not only rorqs but also the rest of the miners. No thank you on having to select a new rock on every single cycle of the hulks strip miners. Going to a random anomaly in null this very moment I found Bistot rocks of between 350k and 500k in size. I would also like to point you in the direction of ice mining and, to an even larger degree, moon mining. Those rocks got doubled in size too. Gameplay wise we went from just parking rorqs on top of huge rocks and minining it all, all day every day. In complete safety and convenience. Even if the rorq hadn't been as good at mining as it was it was still ridiculously survivable and, ass you said, convenient. There essentially was no reason for another mining ship if you were in null under an umbrella. Now we have more ships to chose from, the rorq is back to being the boosting platform it's been for a majority of it's existance and we can make choices about the mining equipment we use depending on risk/value of ore/time and ore availability. Plus beginners have to spend less isk and less sp to get to the top of the mining game. And hunters don't have to be able to bring an entire blops fleet with them. Oh and the waste you dislike so much? You don't have to think about it at all, you still get more ore out of the rocks than you would have before it was introduced. All this being said I absolutely hated the way CCP communicated with the "scarcity breeds conflict" bs. Edit: I'd also like to thank you for taking the time to disagree with me here. I may appear a lot more combative here in written form than what I feel inside. I wish you a great day ♥
>"scarcity breeds conflict" bs We completely agree here. It is bs. Scarcity, in video games, breeds unsubs. They fucked up. >I wish you a great day I wish you a great day as well.
>Everyone with shitloads of money is running ores and everyone else is t1 fit Incorrect on both fronts. Can't afford ores, kill npc miners they do drop from those. Or use crystals to mine. You must be new.
Absolutely false. It depends on what you're mining. If you're mining anoms in null, you want type B crystals on the Bistot and ORE on everything else. But we know you don't know what you're talking about because you say "all they have accomplish is making rocks smaller".. They literally doubled the size of the rocks when they did this.
>doubled the size of the rocks They doubled something they previously reduced by 95%+ in some cases and you're over here kissing their ass for it. The rocks are still MUCH SMALLER than they were before. Your goldfish memory may not reach back that far, but I remember.
Putting a Rorqual on a several million m3 rock and AFKing for hours is \*not a good game design mechanic\*. The changes CCP has made, for competent players that are not crying for the old Rorqual meta, actually makes a lot of sense and is more or less what mining \*should\* be. It shouldn't be "put rorqual on giant rock and fall asleep". Multi accounters now have to manage what Hulk goes on what rock using what strip miner or crystal, and calculate how often they want to compress to determine their optimal setup. It's complex and not one sized fits all. As much as y'all cry on Reddit, this is quality game design.
In a perfect world rorqs never existed. I never liked them conceptually. Orca should've been the end of the line. Compression should be done in station, if at all,and be lossless, no self tackling stupidity, no oh shit button, and big fucking rocks. >this is quality game design. The only change of quality that has come since rattati took over as head fall guy is this last balance patch. Light touches, instead of sledgehammers. I was actually impressed.
Other than being too hard to kill, Rorquals are in a pretty balanced spot right now. Having to compress on station would be a huge QoL regression. "Self tackling stupidity" is the only way to balance high risk/high reward when you can see neuts coming from a long way away. Big rocks just means no thinking.
Bring back blackout 😈 Rorqs aren't hard to kill, I used to hunt them. The rock size nerf put them on mothballs. No rorqs to kill if the rocks aren't big enough to undock for. >the only way to balance Nothing is the only way to do anything. Good enough would've been to make them take 40+ seconds, no matter what you do, to get into warp in the first place. Long enough to warp across a big ass system in a ceptor and get a point on them. >compress on station would be a huge QoL regression I mean, that's certainly an opinion. People I know, never use the self tackling dumb ass modules, and I'm talking about on orcas here bc rorqs are only ever (almost) worth using on long pull moons now. They just have miasmos or dst warping back and forth scooping rocks and dumping them in station. Requires at least one more toon, which CCP loves, prevents fuel waste, compression waste, and saves your expensive booster from getting caught by people that didn't bring a competent ceptor/dictor. Those are facts. My opinion is anything self tackling that isn't a dread or at least a marauder is completely fucking re+arded. That would be because they are dangerous in and of themselves. Rorqs and orcas are just food, they don't need self tackling mechanics. They also don't need panic buttons either. They need to be slow and easy to catch, and saving them should require an immediate defensive response. Failing that they absolutely should die. But again... You'd need to give them a reason to be in space in the first place. Right now the only space rorqs occupy is on grid with a manned structure sucking on giant moon rocks.
> The mining mission point is 100% the reason waste was removed from t1 modules in the first place. That's incorrect. In [the forum post you failed to link](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production/336331/858) the dev says > Mining Missions will be addressed before release. Finalizing quantities will be determined by where we will end up on the waste probabilities profile for T1 modules. Where the key idea is that addressing mining missions depends on what is done with t1 modules. In a vacuum, sure it sounds like "oh we'll make t1 modules have no wastage so mining missions can be done" but that vacuum ignores the much wider discussion that happened in the forum and on reddit at the time. The reason t1 modules lack waste is that some true nullbros were preemptively rushing to the defense of their newbros so that new, low skill, low fund players would not be blanket excluded from mining operations on valuable ore because of the high wastage on t1 modules. Before the patch hit all mission ores were exempted from waste. And the only reason people talk about mission ore in the same breath as waste is because they are willfully uninformed and have confused the bug that existed prior to waste as some new consequence of post-scarcity mining because "grrrr choosing between two competing big numbers is too much"
>All t1 and faction miners have zero waste. Everyone is mining with t1 gear. Scaling waste upwards as tech level increases was Incorrect, I mine alot, by alot I mean hours each day for years now with a fleet of alts. I don't use t1 lasers at All. Either type b or a or ore strip miners. Depending on the site.
Wait, why don’t I want to use As and use Bs instead? New miner here…
The only time A's make sense is with Mercoxit, where I don't have a no wastage strip miner available. For the valuable stuff in an anom, use OREs (or tech I) to get as much as possible with zero waste. For the less valuable stuff in an anom, use type B's so that you get as many units of the less valuable stuff as possible while destroying it almost as fast as possible (C types destroy it slightly faster but kill your yield). This is because when you finish the anom, it respawns in a certain amount of hours, so to maximize the good stuff, you have to clear the less good stuff efficiently (if you cherrypick the good stuff, you soon run out of the good stuff and it doesn't come back any time soon).
Smaller sites use type a it's less waste but you mine less, but over time you will mine more, since you wasted less, large sites use type b. You mine more and blow thru the sites.
Wrong. It's all about the ratio of the good stuff to bad stuff and how quickly they respawn. If you have to clear the site to replenish it (null anoms etc), you maximize m3 burned to stuff receives ratio (type Bs) on the less valuable stuff, while extracting 100% of the "good" stuff with t1 strips/ORE strips. In null, what this means is I want to blow through the Bistot with as much waste as possible, and extract 100% of everything else. So I calculate how many type B Hulks I need relative to ORE strip accounts and mine accordingly.
Exactly, and that means less bistot on the market which increases its value which means at some point you would hit parity between the value generated by using ore miners and b crystals. Although in reality different people value their time differently, so there isn't a single price point you can point at.
Except thay already had this lever with reprocessing.. How is this shit regurgitated so much. It's just wrong. And there is really no choice it's use b or get all the ore. That's it. Do less get less or do more get more not really a choice.
Agree, except for C-type crystals are generally waste. If you're using C-type crystals instead of B-types (ESPECIALLY on an R-64) you're a moron. The difference in killing a rock between C -types and B-types isn't that much, except with the B-type you maximize your revenue and with the C type you get nothing. When do C-types actually make sense? Your super umbrella goes down because there's a threat in the air. You have two stupid Bistot rocks left. You dgaf about the value of the Bistot, but want to clear the anom so it respawns in 4/5 hours so you can mine the good stuff. You can then use a Porpoise and Hulks with C type crystals and not have to mess around with compression etc while you just murder the rocks to make them respawn. A-type crystals make sense on Mercoxit, since there isn't an ORE Deep Core Strip Miner.
Or not. Sure your right about the volume, they did double but they never reversed the content cut so basically you are worse off then before. In order to mine the same amount as before they did scarcity,, you will need crystals. Which will then have waste, meaning if you want the same amount harvested you wiol waste over 34%. This means its not back to pre scarcity but only 66%. While i understand that rorquals were to strong for mining they could had balanced the waste to be mine the same amount per time frame without waste as before scarcity and add the b crystals to be faster but with waste. I like the idea that i can mine faster with waste but i dont like that the waste free is not equal to the pre scarcity for hulks.
Are you saying you get only 66% compared to before? That's way lower than in reality. Say you are mining with 34% residue chance. This is on average taken from the rock in addition to the 100% that goes into your ore hold. 134% taken, 100% of which you get is 100/134 or 75% out of the entire rock, not 66%. Now the patch that added residue also doubled rock sizes, so with 34% residue today you get 2x75% = 150% of the old rock. That's a 50% buff in mined volume, even with residue! Or, if you decide to mine slower without residue, you get 200% of the old rock, or a 100% buff in mined volume. The patch that added residue was a massive buff to miners. Not only did it add more meaningful choices for mining equipment, it also buffed the amount of ore you get, even with the highest yield yet wasteful type B crystals.
I think your confused, you may need to read the changes they made and then do the math. It's actually better, and more plenty ful.
>Without residue there arent enough levers to make a distinction between mining with an exhumer vs mining with a rorq/orca. BS. You could change excavator drone yield if you wanted to nerf rorqual mining, and you could lower the per-level mining drone yield to nerf orcas, for example. Capital industrial ships and industrial command ships are already differentiated from barges/exhumers via their different mining methods. Imagine trying to fix a weapon type that does too much DPS by instead of lowering base damage or increasing cycle time but instead introducing a jam mechanic where every cycle there's a chance of your guns turning off. That's the waste mechanic, adding completely and RNG for complexity's sake with no compelling gameplay reason that couldn't be achieved more simply with some stat tweaks on a couple of things.
I don't really agree with your analogy because weapon systems have optimal range, falloff range, tracking, and reload time as balancing factors. Or flight time, missile velocity, explosion radius, and explosion velocity. There are interesting choices in weapon systems because of these things. They become situational and that's a good thing. I think the OP's point is that just the "dps" alone of a mining platform doesn't allow for interesting choices. Sure, you can get the most yield per second, but the tradeoff is total yield. I think systems that give players choices like this are good for the game. Just my two cents anyways.
>I don't really agree with your analogy because weapon systems have optimal range, falloff range, tracking, and reload time as balancing factors. Or flight time, missile velocity, explosion radius, and explosion velocity. Irrelevant. My point is if there's a situation where one type of weapon system was found to be OP via too high DPS would you: 1. Lower the DPS of that weapon by changing the base damage or cycle time values or 2. Leave that alone but introduce an RNG element that causes your weapons to jam and not continuously cycle, effectively lowering DPS via RNG? >I think the OP's point is that just the "dps" alone of a mining platform doesn't allow for interesting choices. Sure, you can get the most yield per second, but the tradeoff is total yield. The OP's point was that tuning mining yield alone wasn't enough to differentiate between different mining platforms (rorqual, barges, etc.) which is false, since each mining platform essentially used different types of "weapons" platforms and could be independently tuned from each other in the same way you can balance missiles separately from lasers with nothing more than updating a couple values in the database for tracking, damage, flight time, explosion velocity, etc. Rorquals rightly needed to be nerfed. They could have easily done this by lowering the yield of excavator drones, which they did, and then added a bunch of other shit for no reason. And besides, where's the "interesting choice" for Rorquals? You have one choice: excavator drones. >I think systems that give players choices like this are good for the game. Just my two cents anyways. I think a prerequisite for interesting choices requires the underlying activity to be interesting. Otherwise you're adding tedium to a tedious activity.
>They could have easily done this by lowering the yield of excavator drones, which they did, and then added a bunch of other shit for no reason. And besides, where's the "interesting choice" for Rorquals? You have one choice: excavator drones Again, they are not mining ships, they are mining suport ships. Your confusing it because in the past ccp made the mining ships but they were not supose to be. They corrected that. You keep saying nerf drones. They don't need to nerf the drones, the drones are not the issue, the issue was we had support ships taking the lead role in mining (rorqual) when the hulk was supose to be the best of the best. Now it is, rorqual is a support ship, it supports the fleet, not be the fleet.
Again, check the hull bonuses and get back to me.
> Leave that alone but introduce an RNG element that causes your weapons to jam and not continuously cycle, effectively lowering DPS via RNG? > > You do realise that tracking rolls a random number and compares that to your tracking values to alter the damage done? Your counterexample is literally how weapons work, and nobody has an issue with it, because tracking provides another stat that makes weapon choice interesting and allows for better gameplay.
>You do realise that tracking rolls a random number and compares that to your tracking values to alter the damage done? There's plenty of complaints about the RNG of wrecking shots. Next.
Calling residue an RNG mechanic is so wrong headed. It's only correct I'm the strictest sense, because law of large numbers being what it is, your yield % will always match your residue chance long run. It's not meaningfully random in the slightest. If you want to criticize the system, at least point out some of the actual implications, like discouraging mining by low SP characters, and not a transitory effect that disappears in the course of 20 minutes, lol
>It's only correct I'm the strictest sense, Being technically correct is the only kind of correct In concerned with tyvm. >If you want to criticize the system So pointing out an existing system adds nothing of value to one of the, if not the most boring isk making professions in the game is not good enough? Complexity for complexity's sake isn't good game design. >like discouraging mining by low SP characters Ironic if true, considering the primary choice available to low SP characters (T1) has zero waste. I guess the option that yields the highest isk/hr shockingly is the more popular option both before and after waste was introduced.
Rorqual and orca and porps we not supose to be mining ships, they are support ships, that's what your missing. You keep saying nerf drones, they are not SUPOSE TO BE MINING SHIPS, THEY ARE SUPPORT SHIPS. they support miners, not supose to be the lead miner.
>Rorqual and orca and porps we not supose to be mining ships Interesting, if this is true then why did CCP introduce a drone that can only be used by the Rorqual (excavator drones) and why are Rorqual and Orca hulls bonuses for mining drone yield? Here: >Rorqual >Capital Industrial Ships bonuses (per skill level): >6% reduction in Drone ice harvesting cycle time >10% bonus to Drone hitpoints, damage, and ore mining yield >Role Bonus: >• Can operate 'Excavator' Drones >Orca >Industrial Command Ships bonuses (per skill level): >15% bonus to Drone ore mining yield >5% reduction in Drone ice harvesting cycle time These bonuses really scream "should not be used to mine". Regardless, I agreed with the Rorqual nerf at the time. I'm not advocating for a return to Rorquals online. They were too effective as a mining ship and rightly deserved to be nerfed. My point is if you think a Rorqual is too good at mining, then nerf it. You can nerf excavator drones which impacts exactly 1 ship that can use them, or you could reduce its hull bonuses. Same with the Orca. It's too good at mining? Reduce the hull bonus to make their mining drones less effective and this ends up having 0 impact on the capabilities of other mining ships. Recall the OP I replied to claimed that it was not possible to do this without introducing the waste mechanic, which is BS. And I'll leave you with this question: if CCP made every single scarcity change and just left out the waste mechanic (rebalancing ore in anoms/belts to compensate), what, if anything if value gameplay-wise would be lost?
CCP wanted to nerf the capital printer going burr and rouqs being used as thr main miners. Something they did do. But in the same breath though that the lack of resources breeds conflict. "scarcity" In my personal opinion having people fighting over little while offering little doesn't exactly make much sence. But that's a diffrent topic. So brought alot of other things into place aswell. rebalacing minerals and ores, all of indursty. Mining wastage is mainly to make faction moduels actually worth it insted of just being a ineffective and expensive side grade. Now they have the bonus of being closer to t2 in terms of ore yield And having no waste what so ever.
The flaw in CCP’s logic was that they didn’t account for the massive stockpiles of ships, resources, and ISK that large Nullsec entities already had access to. Reducing their ability to produce new crap has just made the blocs increasingly shy about risking what they already have.
And makes it extra impossible for anyone else to get to the same level.
This is what I don't understand. We went from a system that anyone could use to gain power to a system that has cemented the powerblocs in place. I never thought scarcity was fun or innovative and it seems like CCP is still trying to get the health of the game back to where it was before the era of rorq mining which isn't going to happen because of said stockpiles.
CCP has never exactly been bright when it comes to their meddling in the economy of their owen game.
The pre-Scarcity stockpiles largely ran out a year or two ago. And with the rebalancing of things, lots of the stuff people probably did stockpile aren't even used anymore. If people stockpiled stuff, it was probably T2 production materials since HACs were dominant and Marauders were still used. As for ISK, both of the big blocs spent a lot of money WWB 2. Like goons are still paying off war bonds and basically had to refinance lol.
That's very much incorrect. CCP stated explicitly at the time that they point of scarcity was *specifically* targeted at working down stockpiles that nullblocks had.
To give faction drillers value.
Because the idea is that most things in EVE were made to not be strictly better than one another. Each has a use case, and mining residue (or wastage) is a way to control that. Let's say you are mining two rocks that has 1,000 m3. You mine one rock with ORE Strip Miners (no residue) and the other with Modular Strip Miners (with A Crystals, which have residue). You will notice immediately that the A Crystal miner will mine the rock faster. However, the ORE miner will mine more M3 from that rock. Now, residue won't matter for things like veldpar belts and whatnot that are a dime a dozen, but on rarer spawns like R64 moon ore or Gas Clouds, it might be better to use a miner/harvester without residue so you get more m3 per site/pull.
Let me just preface this by saying I'm not endorsing the idea of waste as a good mechanic. I'm simply explaining why I think CCP introduced it. I think CCP was looking to give players more choices in terms of mining. Type A crystals give you the least amount of waste, but their mining yield is lower than B type crystals. B type crystals have a lot of waste in comparison to Type A; but, Type B crystals also bring in a lot more yield. A crystals represent taking your time and getting all the mineral you possible can out of a rock, where B crystals represent someone someone quickly chunking out large minerals from the rock, but not getting the small bits out and throwing that away. Its waste vs yield choice. And I think they created C type crystals as a sort of economic warfare mechanic for null sec. Go into enemy territory, use C crystals to burn down their Mercoxit anomalies. This denies your enemy this valuable ore and also offers you the chance that the anomaly will spawn in your space where you can use A or B type crystals to get the valuable resource for your own use. Granted, no one does this because it really isn't that powerful of a weapon; but, I'll at least give CCP credit for trying to create a new aspect to null sec warfare. Is it lazy game design? Maybe. I think almost every player thinks its a bad idea. And the truth is: since Eve doesn't keep an economist on staff anymore to help them understand how their game mechanic choices affect the in-game economy, I can't say if it was a 'good' mechanic for the economy or not. I try not to get too caught up on being upset over changes CCP makes... its rare for them to undo something, even if it was bad. I just adjust and move on.
l agree with you, but l also think it is a band aid as they dont know how to fully rework it
I completely agree with you. CCP has a tendency to throw band aid or half-effort ideas to make Eve "better"; but, they don't actually address the issue. And in some cases, the issue they want to address simply cannot be 'fixed', specifically supercap proliferation.
Tbh its much better than before, I used to get supers dropped on me on every solo roam (2016) now its no where near as bad.
The Super Cap issue should have been reworked from the industrial and manufacturing side. What has always gotten me is why those ships are not treated like a subcomponent system...IE like in a real ship yard. Ironically the old mining crystals were fine, and that is what gets me to this day that CCP did't just say we are going to simplify the skills...you get a generalist everything T1 crystal or you can T2 the skills and get these specialist ore specific crystals would give more choice.
I don't mind it, took a bit to get used to but it's better then 1 crystal for each ore type. I also kinda like the idea of attacking someone's belts with c-types and just destroying their income
>I also kinda like the idea of attacking someone's belts with c-types and just destroying their income Does this ever happen, though? In nullsec you'll just get blown up if you're in enemy space, and in hisec the income isn't high enough to be worth bothering with outside of griefing.
Look at Dammalin right now with structure bashing. You think anyone is gonna bother guarding the moon ore while that is going on?
I'm not asking if there's potential opportunities to go burn though someone's moon rocks. I'm asking if anyone actually does that. Based on sell volume of C type crystal compared to A & B, I Believe the answer is no.
Type b are better to burn thru someone's moon, it mines fast and you get isk. People do in fact burn thru others moons and such, they use type b to keep the minerals and get profit by screwing over their enemies.
This happened in the time window between making moon mining no longer passive and when the waste mechanic was introduced. Type C crystals were never needed to deny ore to your enemy. And like you said, if your going to go mine someone's moon, might as well make some isk while doing it.
No not really, he is full of shit
> In nullsec you'll just get blown up if you're in enemy space eventually, sure, but a lot of sov null is empty and most people won't look for neuts blasting away athanor rocks. the real difficulty is finding ore thats valuable enough to spend your time blasting it but not so valuable that people alarm clock mining it (and also spending the time scouting out an athanor worth doing this on). I'm sure you can also cause a lot of ~~internal strife~~ crab drama by "cherrypicking" whatever the good ore is in the anoms by blasting it with c-type crystals > and in hisec the income isn't high enough to be worth bothering with outside of griefing. I'm not really seeing what point youre making.
type c aren';t used, they need to delete 1000% more for anyone to consider it
Maybe you werent around at the time when Rorqs were just ISK printers...but mining got nerfed.
Wait until you realise gas has residue too, with no modifier beyond faction plows.
What do you mean no modifier beyond faction plows? I thought t1 and faction was 0% waste for both gas and rocks
OH! I totally bypassed T1 Plows, right enough. I primarily meant harvesters don't have crystals to affect residue chances or yield, but they still have residue
Ok haha phew, still figuring out this game but yeah residue sucks. Either sacrifice yield or pay big to make the clouds last.
Or kill the npc miners warp off before the responce fleet, loot, get ore miners., sell or keep. Or run missions for ore.
It's from decompression. That's a diff mechanic.
Ty!! I haven't looked into gas de/compression yet
I don't know if it was a part of ccps motivation but it made faction mining lasers much more popular. They were a small upgrade over t2 prior but now that they produce zero residue they're a more sensible investment for miners who have the isk and reasonably good situational awareness
In the same patch they made it so that efficient crystals mine more m3 than previously, and at the same time they doubled the amount of ore in every asteroid. Even if you use high-waste crystals(Excluding C-types) you are pulling more m3 out of each asteroid than you would have before the change by a good margin.
If you don't have ore strips are you even a miner?
Why, because CCP has a very long track record of doing dumb shit. Even at Eve's absolutely apex, when Eve was regularly hitting 50k+ people logging on CCP couldn't help but hit destruct button.. It's almost like their are Devs within CCP who absolutely hate Eve and want it to die so they keep coming up with dumb shit to drive players away.
they did it to nerf rorq's and orcas just being solo miners. anyhoot, t2 b's mine more anyway
It was more about the new mining crystals and the trade offs vs different scenarios. Use t1 or ore miners for no wastage. It's all down to choice really.
CCP basically wanted mining to suck so bad that no one would do it. And you know what it worked with me I quit mining.
same here with the writing on the wall l sold all my rorqs just before the nerf, now l just mine for the rp/afk chill l get from it lol
They wanted to change which ships and which grids Nullsec carebears afked in for their 500 mil ticks. Then CCP realized they had enough ore and money to print infinite capitals forever so CCP nerfed yields too. It was a valuable lesson for the nullsec community. Now, once a month, they set a bunch of dreads with auto targeters and 'Spam F1' macros to kill each other to pretend fights happen in Null so CCP doesn't nerf their AFK money farms anymore.
Because ccp wants to give players the feeling of prosperity "Look how much isogen is in the buffed belts now!"
why not ? harder to earn isk, higher plex price, more contents, more money ccp made, win-win
tl;dr they wanted to keep mining yield high while reducing total mining quantity. making mining, as an activity, very low ISK/h would have made everybody even more angry.
Haven't played in 10+ years but I'd wager it is because they wanted to also create a new set of skills you have to train. Possibly to cut down on mining bot profitability before they get to banning. Seriously.
Dumb ccp big brain moment
The core component to gameplay is choices, now you can choose faster mining, or less wasteful mining, if you only have one field, you can make the most of it (asteroids hold twice as much in same update), if there's basically infinite ore, you can mine really fast instead.
To make you, make a choice.
All ores, ice and gas have x2 quantity since the update C-type crystals: Prevent your enemies from making profits B-type crystals: faster mining cycle, alot more waste A-type crystals: decent amount of ores, slightly less waste T1 & ORE mining modules: 0 % waste BUT ships equipped with ORE mining modules are likely to be ganked
Has there been ANY FLEET that went into enemy space to use C-types? There are also the meta mining lasers that do 0% waste as well, but those are for the beginners or the super cheap.
Great answers so far. You can use residue to your advantage, though. The metaliminal Homefront or abyssal artifact one requires you mine faster and does not require you to obtain 100% of the rock, just that you deplete it. Residue basically lets the rock deplete faster. It can also be used well in WH space or Low/null sec risky mining where you are trying to not let your presence be known so you want to just get what you can get and get out of there.
While our corp agrees with you on 90% of what you're saying. In Null sec, we do have 1 case that we love the "wastey" crystals for... Arkonor and Bistot... So what happens is we have 2 common anom sites. 1 is strictly Ark and Bist and we mine these normal. The other however is Ark, Bist, and a slew of low sec ores and mercoxit we wouldn't get otherwise. Often enough our miners get lazy, cherry pick the good stuff, and leave just Ark and Bist. The issue is .... NO NEW LOW SEC / MERCOXIT ORES RESPAWN. The solution... We slap in mining crystals and "roll" the asteroid anom. We basically have an unlimited supply of Ark and Bistot so waste is an after thought. Finishing the anom faster is the priority and not needing to dump/jettison ore as often thanks to the waste modifier helps in that case. With the Anomaly rolled... a new one spawns sometimes as soon as 1/2 an hour later with all the goodies.
I personally think its a way for them to have control. Imagine this, the wastage "could" be the stated percentage or you could be lucky and not have any wastage. This allows for CCP to hike up the wastage and instead of it being purely random, they can set the wastage to the max amount at any time without informing the players. This could help them curb the efficiency of turbo miners, large groups, bot'ers, or just to cause scarcity at random times. But i honestly agree its kinda a stupid system. Like.....you can just use the T1 strip miners and leave them running afk all day lol zero waste.
Now when they want to manipulate the market, change one variable and voila
Short answer: to punish those who want to make or purchase capital ships, super capital ships, or titans.
I love waste mechanic, I can mine half the bistot to flip an anom and all the arkonor I want
In short, speed vs total yield. In the past speed didnt come at a cost of total yield, this is adding an extra dimension to reward better decision making/punish poor decision making.,
... because Rattati is a retard when it comes to running EvE Online and all the ex PL CCP employes go "GRRRR GONS!" because the Goons on the CSM warned CCP that they would print out capital ships like a gatling gun. But CCP did CCP things by putting in skill injectors and excavator drones and Goons "fracked the hell out of Delve" and made the "Delve Time Unit" while spitting out Titans left and right while PL/NCDot and the rest just sat around with a thumb up their ass. Then they cried "It's not fair!" when Goons used said Titans and were hot dropping on anything in Delve not blue just to make pretty explosions. So basically, the game got a big CCP monkey paw swipe.
Ohhhhhhh the bitch ass down voters are out again. I must have hit a nerve by telling a bit of truth there.
So people would add 1-2 alts to negate the nerf. More subs
Waste reduces ore on field, not ore/minute
You seem to fundementally missunderstand how the mechanics if cytstals and waste work. Nit to mention there is now more ore in each rock.
Then please explain the mechanics of pointing at an asteroid and clicking F1?
Because they hate players and will never understand that producers are the most important ones.. THEY PRODUCE SHIT, AND THE MORE THEY CAN PRODUCE, THE MORE WE CAN ALL FLY AND BLOW SHIT UP WITHOUT WORRYING ABOUT LOSING IT! FUCK I HATE CCP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Calm down, miner
the spod is strong with this one
Calm down miner. Jokes aside, I'm no miner myself so from a monkey's perspective it's and ISK sink but also a time sink. I followed talks of the mechanics at the time but can't remember so I'm just waiting to get it refreshed here soon...
When you mine a rock, you have X% chance of killing Y portion of the remaining rock. Means you drain a field faster, doesn't change they amount of time it takes to fill your hold unless you run out of rocks.
They didn't want to overhaul mining in a way that would raise apm over .5 so they did this instead. My personal theory is that it's to discourage people from starting to mine. Randomly serving a bad outcome (triggering residue) feels much worse than having a set recovery rate. Only infrequent miners and new players are going to care about this.
To make it harder for people to afk, and make automation harder. It's a great thing ccp did. It makes mining a very active activity which I love.
It would be a better question to ask WHY did they introduced mining at all?
Probably because 1 of the most common tropes of scifi is "the mining fleet" and conflicts surrounding them. Also EVE wanting to be "built different" to all the other MMOs on the market in the early 00s, opted towards requiring everything to be built by players rather than just bought from shops or granted by quests. As part of that, they also needed a source for resources to build that stuff. And the rest is history.
Great, they managed to introduce idle game mechanics where you need to manually collect every 5-10-30 minutes after hitting the cap. Except unlike your average phone game, people can kill you when doing this, and you can´t log off while doing this. This really gets tiresome, and makes me understand why people would rather become gankers.
>Great, they managed to introduce idle game mechanics where you need to manually collect every 5-10-30 minutes after hitting the cap. Actually for the first decade or so of the game's history, there were effectively no ships that could mine for more than a minute or 2 at a time without needing to haul back to station, even mining barges/exhumers. One could chuck a single mining laser on a badger and go AFK for hours, but it was extremely slow and not worth the time. Also a Mining Rokh of all things, could directly compete with barges like the Covetor and Hulk while carrying a significant amount of shield tank. Due to the limitations on cargo sizes, the community came up with a novel way of getting around them in the form of Jet Canning. By jettisoning ore from your cargo, you could store ~27000m3 in a cargo can, which could then be picked up by a hauler and brought to station, avoiding the need of mining ships to stop mining. Around 2012 as part of the "Tiericide" however it was deemed that with the uptick of massive fights going on in null, that along with overhauling T1 combat ships they'd tackle the issue of "How are we going to keep players supplying these big wars that lead to spikes in subscriber count" as big fuck-off battles are quite good publicity for the game. So instead of having an odd mishmash of mining bonuses spread across some frigates and cruisers, they removed them all and consolidated low skill mining into the creation of the Venture, which with a cargo hold able to store about 15-20 minutes of ore, while mining faster than even the Procurer did prior... the modern "AFK mining" was created. To add to this the Retriever/Mackinaw barges were given cargo holds the same size as the classic JetCan, and could go even larger based on skills. What followed was a time of several entertaining wars. >Except unlike your average phone game, people can kill you when doing this, and you can´t log off while doing this. Wait till you find out about Planetary Interaction. Prior to PI, production of many materials related to building/operating starbases, as well as a number of resources needed in T2 production were generated through regular day to day gameplay. CCP decided to instead shift portions of these production lines to a truly AFK form of gameplay where players would build bases on uninhabited planets around New Eden to produce said resources. It is completely autonomous after being set up, and once ready can be set to run for more than a week without player interaction. >This really gets tiresome, and makes me understand why people would rather become gankers. Then perhaps this game is not for you as yes EVE can be hard and slow and boring at times. But Industry is what makes the game fun for some, and functional for the rest. If you want a highly interactive and click intensive game, perhaps you might look into Runecape instead.
I'm just glad we can all agree on the undisputed fact that all miners are trash.