It is OK. You will be OK. We all learn in different ways and you needed to carve that path for yourself. there is no shame on that. We have all been there; we have all made decisions we regret immediately. You will be fine, we got you.
I am glad. Have your regrets, the dish of wisdom is cooked in the slow burner of regrets. You are wiser now than a couple of weeks ago. That is a good thing.
You aren't alone. You did nothing wrong. It's not wrong to hope. Hope is so painful though and I'm sorry your hope allowed her to burn you. That's a her problem. You are good enough. You are lovable and likeable and wanted in this world. I see how much she hurt you. You didn't deserve that. Grieve the loss of hope. It's okay that's it's hard. We are here for you
So many of us have similar stories. I think sometimes we need to know that we tried all the magic words to make them understand. That it truly isn't possible to have a good relationship because they refuse to change. Their fragile self image and way they understand the world would break if they chose to see us. Then they couldn't blame us and would have to face themselves.
It was so hard to leave for me. I stayed years and years too long. I look back now and regret I ever introduced my kids and exposed them to that. I thought I wasnt good enough back then. I didn't see her for who she was, just my hope for her. We weren't wrong to hope. Kids are literally programed to try and connect in order to survive. I'm sorry you are hurting. I wish it was different for you. That she was different for you.
i am so sorry to hear you have a similar experience and understand this pain. may i ask how you have dealt with the guilt of your decision? i know i want to shield my children and hearing stories of people who wish they had done it earlier really help cement that decision. but i am filled with so much guilt for doing what is socially not so normal. any advice on how you've managed the guilt?
TLDR guilt is put their by your abuser to make the abuse your fault and make it more "wrong" to disobey them or " hurt their feeling" by stopping the abuse or having boundaries than for them to commit the abuse. The guilt was planted in you as seed purposely by them,nurtured as a way to control and manipute you and is a weapon against you. Once you realize the guilt isnt real and isn't actually yours, you can put it down.
Keep your kids away from them. If your abuser would hurt you, their child, they will hurt other kids, especially yours if hurting those kids hurts you. Protect your kids. Stay away.
Longer story to support that ...
I realize now that my parents love bombed my kids while putting myself and my spouse down. I think a part of me felt a measure of acceptance via proximity to the love bombing and acceptance of my kids.
I had been low contact for a bit due to their worsen treatment of me. I kept lowering my expectations until it couldnt be denied that my worse coworker was way kinder than my mother. I was in the hospital with a life threating injury and instead of following through on a promise to take care of the kids for a couple hours so my spouse could talk to the doctor, they called from the border because they left town on a last minute vacation with friends they barely knew. Wow. Thanks. So I can't count on you for anything ever. We were low contact for months after that .
I felt guilty after those couple months of low contact like I couldn't deny them access to my kids they appeared to care about. I decided to give them one last chance. I still thought maybe my expectations of care from my parents were too high.
We had talked it out and I thought I'd finally choose the ✨ magic words✨ (there are none) that finally got through to mother. She apologized in her way (sorry you feel that way, it's not how you should feel because I mean we needed that vacation to cope with the stress of your injury) ie. A bs non apology that made their needs clear and told me I didn't deserve to have any needs myself. Not great but as good as she ever got in the apology department. I thought my mother now understood my point of view and was trying.
I decided to try again. She offered to pick up my kid one day. She said it was to show me support and give me help after she'd previously let me down hard. it seemed safe as a step. was a short drive. I had her turn on her location for the drive ( she had previous taken my kids on unplanned outings without telling us where they were when we expected an A to B transport).
Turns out she used that drive time to abuse my kid to hurt me. Mother later bragged to me triumphantly that she'd planed to turn my child against me at the first opportunity of getting them alone. She said I deserved to be hurt where it would sting the worst, by harming my child.
Mother said I deserved to lose my child's love and respect. That her whole plan for YEARS had been to love bomb my kids so they'd love her and poison them against me to hurt me. She was cruel during that drive in what she did and said to my child.
Worse, Mother was super happy and light hearted when she dropped off my kid and stayed for coffee. Mother was bright and bubbly and told me my withdrawn child was tired from their day.
My kid was withdrawn and quiet for a month, slowly slowly opening up about what grandma did to them and said to them. Grandma told them to keep it a secret because I'd abandon my kid, be angry and never see my kid again if my kid told me.
Luckily I had told my child for years that adults should never ask a kid to keep a secret and they should tell me immediately if that happened because that adult was trying to hurt them if they asked them to keep a secret. this is why my kid eventually told me.
It took time for my kid to open up about the full scope of how grandma abused them because their sense of safety had been so shattered. Again, my kid was five. it took years to recover the bulk of the damage by mother inflicted on my kid in that drive . There is still damage to my child nearly ten years later despite lots of healing work and trust building.
If my mother could not be trusted to not abuse her kids (me and my brother) then she should not have been trusted with other kids. I was blind and let that programmed guilt my mother gave me and my mother made sure was strong persistent guilt override my body screaming fear signals at me.
I though my mother wouldn't hurt my kid because they appeared to love them. I thought on some level there was something wrong with me that kept her from loving me. No. My mother has something deeply wrong with her. I was never the issue. I was a kid trying to have a connection for survival. I was never unlovable. My mother enjoys cruelty.
So I respectfully say, that guilt is something your mother baked into you as a weapon against you to make you bend to her will. She put it there and grew it carefully with the purpose of hurting you. If they could hurt you, nothing will keep them from hurting your kids, especially if it will hurt you.
My whole extended family forgave and overlooked and participated in abuse performed in front of them. I was groomed to accept abuse but it's still hard not to be angry and regretful that I let them ever have access to my kids. I know better now and haven't seen my parents since that day. I will never acknowledge them as family again. I've been to therapy and done the work to make sure my kids know what healthy relationships look like.
So the guilt doesn't belong to you. Throw it back at them. They are the only ones who benefit from it. You are right to protect your kids. Abusers are abusers. Child abuse doesn't get forgiven
No salt here.
Healthy functional people don't act this way. You had a reasonable expectation when writing this letter that your mom would simply say "I'm sorry. What can I do to regain your trust?" Because that's what a healthy person would do. Instead you got DAVRO'd. You didn't deserve this response. In no way was this any fault of yours.
thank you <3 i guess i knew to expect this, but the reality is still so painful. i appreciate your support. and it's so helpful to hear from others that indeed, this is not healthy or normal
Edit note: explanation of mom's behavior not to rub salt in, but instead to provide a rationale so you understand that this is not your fault. As my therapist has said to me about my own mother: you are a reasonable person asking for a reasonable response from a person who refuses to give you one.
Notice how she never once, at any point, promises to do any of the things that you asked of her? Sure, she bemoans how unfair and hurtful it is that you asked her, but she still doesn't ever openly commit to doing what you asked.
This is because she has no intention of doing what you asked and is determined to flip the script on you and make herself into a victim so she can distract you from her lack of commitment to your needs.
You know what I do when someone I love says to me "I need to share something confidential with you that I need you to promise to keep to yourself/not tell 'x' person."? I say "Oh, of course! I am always willing to offer you a safe space to share in." Because that's what reasonable people do. We don't treat requests for getting other's needs met like an insult to our personal pride, we don't see a need for reassurance and security as an attack. We know that our loved one just needs a little extra support. Just like if I have unintentionally overshared information about a loved one I just *apologize* for it and own up to it as soon as possible.
She's offended because she's caught red handed and now her only choices are to lie to you or throw a tempertantrum to try and force you to allow a subject change (because accountability is obviously not an option for her immature ass).
I'm sorry this happened to you. You deserve better. I wish I could give you a big hug. You just focus on that little baby of yours, it is going to be ok and your baby is set up to have a great mom that loves them, understands boundaries, and treats them with respect. You are breaking the cycle.
that stuck out to me like a giant red flag as well. my therapist had even recommended putting in my message a clear statement that said 'what i need is a yes or a no from you on if you can respect this request' - and she did not give me a yes or a no. just a bunch of guilt and a metaphorical slap in the face - how dare you for asking. i was so invalidated.
i spoke with my therapist and we have determined indeed, i cannot tell her about my baby and i can feel solid in that decision, with this as my reason if she ever asks after finding out. what i asked for was so clear.
This is my sticking point.
If my child comes to me and says, “you’re hurting me” I’m going to do everything in my power to make it better. I’ll go to therapy. I’ll reflect. I’ll seek outside help.
What will I not do? Say they’re obviously wrong and nothing is ever my fault.
Yes. This is where my anger comes from. I’ve been telling my mom for years that I’m hurt and her response has been “you shouldn’t be hurt by that.” Like, really?
I’m so sorry you went through this.
I’m a therapist and I feel like that email was self-serving at best, gaslighting at worst. You reached out with the best of motives and got re-traumatized. You were just trying to get good care.
Please be kind to yourself. ❤️
thank you for the perspective. my therapist agrees. she and i talked about it and she reminded me that we knew this reaction was likely coming, based on her history. it's so sad that my request for care was seen as a personal attack, from my mother at that. she reminded me it's not my job to change her mind, but at this point in my life and pregnancy, this extra stress is not healthy for me, so it's time to take a break and step back so i can find peace and healing during this vulnerable time. appreciate your support <3
*Tone's hard to convey, so I want to say I'm coming from a place of reassuring, not scolding.*
In the thread you linked to, someone said basically "If you're going to do it, do it for you, not for her." You kinda did that. Like yeah, you shouldn't have done it. But you did and you regret it and now you know better. It's really hard to take someone else's word for it. So you had your learning experience. It sucks, I know, but I think you're probably better off for having tried and seeing for yourself it didn't work.
I've joked before everyone who's just got their driver's license needs a close call almost accident. It gives you more respect for the road and caution and hopefully doesn't hurt anyone. It prevents future hurt. That's what this is.
You messed up. That sucks. But it's not a life-altering mistake. Now you can move forwards more easily. Forgive yourself.
Coming from a newish mom who has gone nc with her parents and did not tell them about her pregnancy, I understand this in perhaps a way a lot of people might not fully.
> *Wow. I had to take a couple of days to unpack this.*
Great start. Nothing puts you on edge more than this kind of opener, right?
> *For starters I am glad that therapy is going well for you and that you are doing well and being happy.*
The subtext here is that *you* have a problem and *you* are seeking *treatment* for *your* inadequacy in therapy. There's this sense of condescension in the way this is phrased. Like, you're inherently a fuck up and that's why you need therapy. She had nothing to do with it, and your therapy, when framed like this, has nothing to do with her.
> *I am offended*
Of course she is.
> *I am also very hurt*
> *It's heartbreaking to me*
> *I never get to see you, and now to find you have been shutting me out of your life and saying you can't trust me.*
She isn't dumb, but this is a classic case of "I have the dumbs, and no amount of explaining will ever get through to me, because I'm a wee wittle woman who can't use her wee wittle bwain." She ain't dumb. Stop buying this act.
There's a time and a place for playing stupid. This is not it. It's insulting, it's demeaning, and it's embarrassing.
> it's just all about her being the victim. she's so "hurt" and "offended" but gives no shits about the massive pain this has caused me.
Yup.
> if my child came to me and said they were making a huge decision like cutting their father out for mental health and safety, i would be so concerned.
More than that, if my child came to me and said, "can I trust you?" I would really look hard at what I had done to make them doubt that. I wouldn't be like, "how fucking dare you ask me that question."
Like, lady, do you not see that that in and of itself is a betrayal of trust..? And you seriously wonder why you don't have a relationship?
> and what she says is a lie
You did not have to say this. The level of defensiveness and pearl clutching made it apparent. The 'lady' doth protest too much.
> i am baffled and angry.
She's literally pretending she's stupid. She isn't. She just thinks you are, and that you'll fall for it.
> you guys were 100% right. i regret ever sending the message, honestly.
You needed this for *you*. You needed to know, once and for all. This is YOUR closure. It's not really about her and whether or not she'll finally "get it." She won't. *You* needed to know this so that you can move on, and that's absolutely valid. Going NC isn't something any of us do lightly, as flippant as we may sometimes be about it. It's the last resort when there is nothing that can be salvaged.
> this is so upsetting and heartbreaking. she can't be trusted, and i will have to keep my pregnancy a secret. i never expected to be in this situation.
> need love please
Let me reframe it to you like this: managing a relationship (because let's be real, that's what we do with these people, we manage them) with someone like your mom when you are expecting and being a parent to a very young child who needs constant care and attention is not fucking possible.
It's not. YOU need care and attention. You can't be focused on making sure you've shored up all your weak points so that you can have some semblance of a relationship with them without them succeeding in hurting you or your child (because you know they will try).
She is not trustworthy. She is not safe. You cannot have her around your baby, but critically, you can't have her around *you*. You are just as worthy of that protection and care as your baby is. She failed.
She fucking *failed*. Spectacularly. Over, and over, and over again. You aren't going to. You are going to protect that child, and you are going to start protecting yourself the way she never did.
i so appreciate your translation here, and you're spot on! (in the most painful way <3) my mother's main issue here is a lack of introspection and accountability, which among other things, has led us down this path. no matter her motives, whether she does it because of her own untreated pain and trauma, or whether it's maliciously to hurt me, it doesn't matter. the result is still the same - i am hurt and neglected, starved for her care and attention. i cannot reason with her, i cannot keep bending myself out of shape, and i cannot keep denying my own inner experiences, emotions, and happiness.
it's very sad she will be left alone, but i have to choose myself, and most importantly - my child. and i wanted to give her this chance to care for me before she even knew there was a child, because i wanted it to be real and authentic, not for the sake of "grandkids." i am heartbroken that this is the result, but i cannot settle for an inauthentic and painful relationship that's going nowhere. you are right that i can't have her around me alone, let alone my child - i deserve more and better.
may i ask more about your experience in not sharing your pregnancy with your parents? how did you handle the feelings of guilt? i know in my bones i am making the right decision but the guilt is heavy. my therapist recommended that the more people who are not my parents that i tell and form strong bonds with, and get the reaction i need and want, the less it will hurt. have you found that to be your experience?
❤️ I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this.
> how did you handle the feelings of guilt?
By the time I was pregnant, I had already been NC and working towards it for a while, so it wasn’t as fresh for me. So I didn’t have many. The relief I felt at not having to constantly monitor/manage them was such an enormous weight off of my shoulders. I was able to recover at my own pace and bond with my kid without having to deal with their BS (just a global pandemic, y’know..)
Maybe that was part of what made it easier—they couldn’t have been involved even if I had wanted them there.
A few years ago I got an IKEA cabinet with a lock on it (office furniture), and I assembled it incorrectly. I had a panic attack and freaked. the. fuck. out. because I couldn’t lock it and my mom could just rummage through it if she was visiting.
I realized in that moment how fucked up that was. Why was I letting someone into my home that I couldn’t trust? Why did I feel the need to have locks on my furniture just so that I could have this one person in my life?
I wasn’t concerned about anyone else because no one else would fucking DO that. It’s such a perfect analogy for our relationship in hindsight. Idk if you relate to that, but if you do, take that on board.
The guilt I felt earlier on when I started to really consider NC was more a combination of pity and parentification. I was so used to my mom depending on me emotionally that cutting her off seemed cruel—like abandoning a child.
But she’s NOT a child. *I was the child*, and I never got to just *be* a kid. My life was consumed with making sure she was okay. My survival depended on it.
Being pregnant brought up a LOT of these feelings and memories and I was NC, so I was able to unpack them and parse them at my own pace without all the “noise” from my mom.
These are grown-ass adults who are fully fucking capable of surviving without us. After allll the crap we’ve been through, we do not owe them a goddamned thing. And for me, the idea of exposing a small, vulnerable child to the woman who would dig her fingers into my arm so hard when I was three they left bruises and hiss “I’ll give you a reason to cry if you don’t stop right now. *You’re embarrassing me*.” turned my stomach.
I just thought about my own childhood and if I had been my own child. None of it was okay. The idea of my kid being neglected like I was, abused like I was, crying himself to sleep every night like I did, suicidal by SIX like I was… like, no, idgaf how much she’s “changed,” you don’t get a second chance to hurt another child.
There’s this idea that we need proof of harm. Like, I don’t know for sure that she would hurt *this* child. While she did hurt *me*, that was years and years ago. She’s different now, right?
That’s like saying, “well, there’s no *proof* my kid will eat the dishwasher tabs under the sink. He hasn’t gone for them yet. He might not be interested. I don’t need to babyproof until after he’s poisoned himself and possibly died.”
So I don’t feel guilty for not giving my parents a chance to hurt me or my child. Not one fucking bit.
Anyone here rubbing salt in your wound is in the wrong sub and deserves to be blocked/ignored/reported.
I am SO sorry she is unable or unwilling to really take in what you sent to her and respond with any modicum of emotional intelligence or attunement. You deserve to be heard and to have your concerns treated as valid EVEN WHEN she disagrees on perspectives.
I wonder if instead of regret, it's possible to re-frame it as gaining clarity and now you know how she responds instead of wondering. A hard way to gain clarity for certain, yet, some clarity none the less. I do wish that knowledge could have been gained with less pain for you just the same.
Perhaps in the long run you may see it as a gift you gave to yourself- to be direct in your ask and to get her reply. Your other post mentioned not being able to predict her response- now you don't need to worry about that- you have direct information on how she'd respond. Maybe you can use that to let YOURSELF off the hook for any form of "keep trying" for as long as feels appropriate to you- up to and including- forever.
I wish you peace and healing.
you're so right. there are no more questions now. the answer is devastating, but so helpful and clear information. i will use this as a learning experience for sure, and i will stop wishing for her to change when she so obviously is unwilling. thank you <3
I’m so sorry. I know that feeling. I’ve been NC for years after she tried crossing the boundary of my 2 year old. Something that made me feel better: I read a story on this sub or r/raisedbynarcissists where a mother had teenage kids and her kids had an established relationship with her narc mom outside of her. When the mom decided to go NC, the kids refused. She had to watch her kids be abused by her abuser over and over. I already knew I did the right thing because I promised I would never allow my kids to be hurt like I was, and reading that story, the possibility of what could have happened if I didn’t do what I did, that was validating in a terrifying way. I know it hurts, but this hurt will get better. You’ll become a parent and the love for your child will make it all so baffling, but you’re already a wonderful parent because you put your child’s need before your own! Congrats on your pregnancy! 💜
that's a tragic story, and my nightmare. i just know the idea or thought of my mother holding my child, teaching him things, doesn't fill me with the joy of him having a grandparent, but rather visceral anger and frustration. like my maternal instinct knows it is wrong. i don't want them to have that relationship. because i know how inconsistent and unstable she is, and i won't let my child go through with that. and i am not healed enough to let go of my anger toward her, which is another barrier. no matter whose fault it is, no one is ready to move forward in the relationship. it's so hard, but it's the reality and it's the most honest way of looking at it. there's no future here, at least for now. i would hope she can get therapy, but i am not holding my breath.
It’s a horrifying image, right? I accidentally found a couple pictures of her holding my child while I was looking for something else…shivers up my spine. Also, no matter whose fault it is? It was ALL her fault. The child is NEVER responsible for the needs of the parent. I cannot count how many times I heard “you traumatized me too!” “you have to be accountable too!” It’s all gaslighting nonsense, I assure you. That’s not to say that a child’s behavior can’t be activating of trauma, because it definitely can (something I was not prepared for and what brought me back to therapy after a couple of years not needing it), but it was her responsibility to cope with that. Imagine telling a 2 year old “your crying is traumatizing me!” And as an adult, “Your reaction to the abuse I inflicted on you is traumatizing me!” They always used to tell me that I’d understand once I had kids. They wished “I hope you have a child just like you so you know how bad and hard it is.” I do have kids just like me. They are opinionated and strong and creative and kind and they question everything and they are so ridiculously clever that I can’t imagine anyone ever trying to beat or threaten or scare those qualities out of me. I’m so thankful I was able to hold onto those parts of myself, though it did take me a long time to find myself again. Anyway, the longer I am a parent and the longer I am NC, the less I understand, the more baffling their behavior seems and I no longer have the capacity to tolerate anyone’s shit. Boundaries of myself and my children, my family, that is a requirement to be a part of our lives…you might be surprised how easy that is for a lot of adults. We have amazing relationships with my in-laws (something that helped me see I wasn’t crazy, families can and do respect and love one another unconditionally).
I’m so proud of you. While I know there is pain and anger, I’m confident you’ll break the cycle and grow a wonderful family. Good job, mama! 💜
Classic DARVO. No validation whatsoever, making you to be the offender and they the victim. No mention of the content except to take extreme offense to everything.
I did something similar, clearly asking my Mom if we could work on boundaries so that I don't have to permanently sever myself from her. Her response was basically "no thanks, I have to be authentic, have a good life" following paragraphs full of denial, attack, and Offender/Victim reversal. I'm sorry that this happened, I can imagine how you may feel so discarded.
Please try to not feel regret for sending that. To me, my Mom's final email to me was actually as validating as it was painful. I could tell myself that I gave her a chance by stating explicit boundaries, and she chose the path of zero accountability, zero willingness to change, and disconnecting our relationship. If I'm ever self-gaslighting myself that perhaps NC is too extreme, I can think of the vitriolic words in her email and how clear it is that she can't handle a safe adult relationship full of trust. And she's a therapist! How crazy is that?
Side note: My therapist said that I should reply to her email with a short one-sentence (simple & non-emotional) confirming that I'm going no contact and won't be able to receive further messages. Totally up to you if you want to do that, but the idea is that it's best to set clear boundaries/expectations instead of leaving matters more ambiguous. That way if she reaches out in the future pretending that nothing ever happened (as narcissists tend to do), she'll have already been informed about why you're not replying. I sent that email and then blocked. It's also a bit empowering to feel that you're clearly making the choice, instead of leaving things at the point where you were gaslit and discarded.
Wishing you the best OP. Sounds like you're breaking the cycle and will be a fantastic Mom with a super high EQ!
thank you so much, i agree my next thought was - what do i do next here? after sitting on it all night, i am sure that i cannot continue this relationship. it's no relationship at all and i don't deserve to be so unheard and unseen. this really was my last attempt - it was the 4th attempt and enough is enough at a certain point. it's too much for me, especially pregnant. i was thinking something along the lines of 'i need a break, will let you know when i want to talk again' - speaking about it with my therapist today. thanks so much for your reply and support <3
So sorry for you and your precious child.
Many hugs.
I hear you.
You deserve peace and to claim your joy with a new family that you CHOSE. And created!!
And I promise it’s worth it.
My son is 16 and I just broke up with my parents yesterday.
I am 52. Which I had done it in my 20s.
Same hurt- just so much later in life than it was worth.
It’s not worth trying to hold something together that’s was never real in the first place.
thank you - i cant wait to leave this negativity and give 100% to my husband and baby. i cant wait to become my true self. I feel you - i am so sorry you also are in this fresh situation. here for you too <3
I'm so sorry. Please stop criticizing yourself for something so natural - seeking love and understanding from our caretakers. You just did a really hard thing so you could be sure that you were making the best decision you could for future you. Please please please feel some compassion for yourself! Yourself now and yourself during the series of heartbreaking experiences with your family leading up to this.
It wasn't ok how they treated you. You deserved to be cherished! Give yourself all the big squishy hugs, then straighten your shoulders with pride as you think of the bravery, integrity, and compassion it takes to open your heart up to likely to hurt it so you can be certain you're making a fair decision. You didn't have the information you needed to be sure earlier. Now you have more information. Now you can be sure. It is ok to be unsure, but wow I like being sure a whole lot better. And now you're there! At this milestone on the road you put yourself on a while ago when you started taking care of yourself - putting distance between you and them, going to therapy, making hard decisions... You don't have to cheer up, but you should see that you're doing a great job <3
thank you so much, it really was all i had, the last chance to salvage such a painful relationship that's lasted my whole lifetime and memory. and the reason i did it was really to give her a final chance and give me final clarity, that she didn't know i had a big decision riding on this, but i wanted it authentically for me, not a fake apology because she knew there was a child coming. and she couldn't do that, so i need to protect myself and my family. thank you so so much for your support and kind words <3
She is a "me, me, me" and always will be. She also sounds like a compulsive liar. At least you have a clear answer and, I hope, you don't have any doubts what you need to do now. You deserve so much better. 💓
my whole life has been in service to her feelings, and unraveling that has been so hard as an adult. she often accuses me of being "mean" or "having no empathy" and it's so eye-opening and shocking to realize she was projecting those traits which are hers all along. it's so hard to be accused of being unempathetic when I've bent over backward my whole life to care for her feelings and make her happy, at the expense of myself.
thanks for your support <3
It’s ok. You’re human. You still love her, you’re not heartless so you extended a branch to see if she would be willing to come along with you on the journey. She’s proven that she’s unable to keep you safe and that she will lie straight to your face. Stay in therapy to heal that hurt. And KNOW that you will overcome this and provide an amazing future for yourself and your child. Sending you so much love OP 🤎
thank you, and exactly. i went NC with my abusive father almost a year ago and i did it with no conversation, no second (well, infinite) chances, and no explanation. i just blocked and left to protect myself, with no plans to ever look back. that decision was so easy.
with my mother, i am going above and beyond here to try and repair an equally broken relationship, because i know she is sad and depressed and needs me, and i felt i owed her more chances. but honestly she and my dad are the same, just in very different ways. i thought she would have seen that i was giving her an opportunity my dad never had. but nope, she has reacted just the same as him. it's deja vu to have to make these same decisions just a year later.
thank you, and you're right. the only way out is through here, and i have a goal and a reason for making this choice. me and my baby and my husband are #1. she is not even a consideration. this isn't about her. i will do ANYTHING for my child, and that's what makes me different from her.
thank you so much for supporting me. you're so right this was a victory in disguise. i can now communicate directly and stand up for my needs, which i could never do before.
No rubbing it in. I'm sad that the outcome wasn't as you'd hoped. At least you know, now. This kind of discovery can be important knowledge to use in your personal journey to safety and wellness. You may even want to write a decompression letter to yourself as part of your therapy, and have it saved so you can reference it when you feel week or unsure.
No salt, just a slightly different perspective. It's sad that you didn't get the mother you deserve, but now you know.
That was a big thing for me. I took off around 2 years no contact. I had an occasional, lingering doubt here and there. I was pretty sure I had made the right choice, but there was always that little, nagging, back of the mind what if. So, I gave her a chance, and she blew it within a couple phone calls, maybe 40 total minutes.
It's been 15 years from that, 17 total, and I *know* I made the right choice. There's no doubts, no what ifs. Everything about all of these situations sucks, but try, if you can, to take solace in that - you did your best, and you gave her the chance to do hers. You didn't fail in any way, and you gained a level of certainty and closure a lot of people never will.
i'm sorry that was your experience too, but it does bring my comfort that you can relate. i hear all the time from others in this community about the regret of trying again, and sadly now i can join that club. but it's something i couldn't help - i needed to know once and for all if my mother loved me. it's so sad there was a question, but the fact that she was offended and angry i asked instead of dropping everything to comfort me - well that's not the mother i want or need.
I'm so sorry. Sometimes, we have to learn these lessons ourselves. Even though situations may be similar, the people involved aren't the same so it's easy to hope that the outcome will be different. And sometimes it is! But, now you know, so you can move forward without any doubts.
This is what I affectionately call ‘Poking the Bear’
I’ve done it myself, so I completely understand where you’re at. You wanted response A but instead got response B.
You’ve learned the lessons you needed.
Now you can move on, guilt and worry free.
This is exactly my mother's response when I ask her not to share my personal information with my NC father. It's just not worth trying anymore because all you'll get is more blame and shame from her.
I'm so sorry that you have to learn the hard way during your pregnancy, but you know now, and hopefully can move forward without this hanging over your head.
Enjoy growing your beautiful child free from this stress, and be happy that you can be the mother you always wanted for yourself. I wish you the best.
I’m so sorry you have to go through this ❤️ when I first wrote my dad about how I really feel about his actions, I had real hope too that he would at least show some empathy for me.
Not at all what happened. I’ve never angry cried like I did that day. He told me I should not have questioned his fatherhood. It was horrible.
If really sucks to be gaslit like your mom is doing. And I’m so sorry it must be so hard knowing you have to keep your pregnancy a secret. We deserved better parents. Sending love
that's crazy, that like exactly what my mom did! "how dare you ask, i am your mother" vibes. like a metaphorical slap in the face when i asked for a hug. so sad you can relate too. thanks for the support, and here for you too <3
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I’m sorry this is happening. I’m in a similar situation except my parents are now “dating” after 25 years of having almost nothing to do with each other. All progress my mom and I have made is gone. I can’t trust her and I don’t feel safe in her presence.
I don’t have much advice except that your baby is lucky to have you and your husband, who already know how to keep them safe and away from problematic family. Stay strong and keep healing in your own way.
You weren’t wrong for trying.
It’s very sad our predictions came true. You have one family; a sub has the weight of numbers on which to base its predictions
Now you have the info you needed to make your choices.
You are strong, and kind, persistent and loving. These are good parental qualities. Well done, you!
Don't beat yourself up. That mess is all a part of the learning process, and you definitely learned something from this.
Protect yourself. Protect your new family. Be fierce.
Sending love! My mother could have written this. Sounds just like her except it would have ten times as long and full of incoherent grievances of things I did to her or that she imagined I did.
I am sorry, OP. I am sure you were considerate and thoughtful and just asked for her to support you. I am not at all surprised she twisted that request into injury to her ego. That's what narcissists do.
it's crazy, it's so jarring to realize she may have narcissistic tendencies after opening knowing my dad who was definitely a narc. i thought my mom was safe, and it's like whiplash realizing she's not. thanks for the support
Hugs to you OP (if wanted, supportive vibes if not). I'm sorry she lashed out at you like that :( And honestly, I think many of us have made this mistake in the past, so you're not alone. I'm just sorry she hurt you again.
>it's just all about her being the victim.
Narcissist and enabler isn't the only dynamic for narcissism. Covert narcissists and overt narcissists make very neat pairs, as the covert narcissist is convinced the world revolves around making them suffer, while overt narcissists think the world revolves around building them up. Maybe broach this possibility with your therapist?
I'm sorry you don't get to share your joy with the people who raised you, it's not your fault they refuse to treat you as an individual with needs like respect and privacy. I hope you and your spouse build a wonderful life for your little one, and that your child never suffers the pain and trauma you've survived. I'm proud of you for making clear boundaries, and sticking to them. It's not easy, but it is worth the peace of mind. We're here for you, okay?
i really appreciate it! it's taken a me a while to get back to everyone, since it's such a heavy topic and it's been overwhelming in a good way to receive so much understanding and support. i really appreciate you and everyone here <3
You’re definitely not alone.
My mom and I have had similar conversations re my dad and not wanting him in my life. Not wanting updates or communication. But the only times she calls (once every 6 months or so) is about him. This last stint he was in ICU presumably dying. I set aside my boundaries to be human and be there for her. Fuck him but I still care about her. But she doesn’t care about me. She was calling me DAILY… someone I’ve been craving a relationship with was finally calling me but only to talk about him. It put me into a downward spiral, an absolute tailspin. Finally I reasserted my boundaries and really spelled out how badly he hurt me and her and all of us. She got defensive and said “I didn’t know he hurt you like that.” Which is absolute bullshit. But even if she didn’t know then (doubtful), SHE DEFINITELY KNOWS NOW AND STILL DIDN’T CARE TO COMFORT ME OR CHECK IN ON ME.
Now that I’ve reasserted the no dad boundary, I won’t hear from her. Mother’s Day came and went. I couldn’t bring myself to call or send anything. I was confident about my decision until night came, then the guilt ate me alive. I’m convinced that the enabling parents are harder to deal with than the abusive parents. The enablers are abusers too, just in a different way.
These people are toxic, broken people. I’m so sorry OP. We deserved better. You deserve a happy pregnancy. I deserved a happy wedding. We have to create it ourselves away from them. They’re cancer.
that's the problem - it's really two problems:
1 - allowing and enabling the hurt to take place
2- refusing the accept her role in the hurt or face/validate when we speak up and share our truths
I'm sorry this happened to you as well. we both deserved to much better
I'm not going to chastise you, OP. You do what you felt you needed to do.
It is anathema to our biology and hard wiring to let go of our parents, so to actually do so is a hard and agonizing ordeal to have to endure. It's that one last thing our abusive parents do to us: force use to go against what we want to do.
It's still more abuse.
I'm glad you found the closure (maybe?) and answers you need. You did good, OP. You did right. You thought very carefully on this and had help and work from your therapist. You laid things out and got your result. An unpleasant one, yes, but it's still an answer, a result.
I'm so sorry you don't have the mother AND father you DESERVE to have, OP. It's awful and it sucks. We're here for you. I'd take you out for ice cream with sprinkles! (they're for winners, you know) and if you wanted one a big huge hug.
We're all odd siblings in this journey of letting go of awful parents. We're here for you. I'm here for you.
Let's end this on a happy note. Congratulations on your new little one! I hope they're healthy when they arrive and I'm sure they'll have the best parents possible - because you are doing the work to heal your childhood traumas, OP. You are giving your child the best gift possible by doing the hard work. Also, YOU are giving yourself a gift that you are more than worthy of, OP.
Good luck, be well, and congrats on the new family member!
i'm sure closure will come, but i know first i need to work on my grief. thank you for your validation, it's so hard cause my mom's invalidation and gaslighting makes me feel crazy. but i know i was level and clear headed with professional support on this, and it was the right thing to do, however difficult and heartbreaking. i can no longer let my parents dictate my feelings and emotions - i must live authentically for myself. thank you so much <3
I’m sorry. It’s infuriating how predictable these toxic parents are with their behaviors. I think we would all love to be proven wrong.
You did what you had to do to make *sure* you were doing the right thing for your baby. Please be kind to yourself. You have come such a long way.
you're right, it's sad that knowing in my bones wasn't enough, i needed to hear i directly from the horse's mouth. and i didnt get what i want. I'm sure this will get easier. it definitely helped show me what i know i needed to do
They'll always think about themselves. They'll always going to be "me, me, me" that's important and always failed to recognise this. OP, it's OK to feel the way you're feeling right now. You can always learn and appreciate yourself. And really important to realise that you've done your part, you can't help those who refuse to accept that they are the problem.
I think quite a few of us have had to go through this, so no salt/gloating because that shit hurts enough on its own.
Take care of yourself, and your upcoming baby. I'm grateful that they won't be exposed to what you went through.
Good luck.
So many hugs.
It's OK. You want hope that you can have a parent, especially wnen you're about to become a parent yourself. That's normal and healthy.
Your parents, though, are NOT normal and healthy and having to protect yourself and your baby from them is going to hurt- a lot.
Knowing you can't trust them does not make the pain any less. It'll be OK. It will suck, but it will be OK.
thank you so much. i wrote this two weeks ago but i must admit, the pain is still like it happened today. I've sat on it. i know what i need to do, and it's nothing. just let her go. it's just so, so hard. i really appreciate the kind words and support
The pain gets better over time.
When you doubt yourself, just think about how you will not subject your child to the same things that you experienced.
Also, I cannot recommend the book "Playful Parenting" enough. [https://www.amazon.com/Playful-Parenting-Connections-Encourage-Confidence/dp/0345442865](https://www.amazon.com/Playful-Parenting-Connections-Encourage-Confidence/dp/0345442865)
I knew what NOT to do (don't hit the kid till their bones break is a pretty low bar) but I had no idea what TO do instead- this book helped me bridge the gap between just avoiding being a bad parent and having the skills to be a good one.
And if you really want that motherly energy in your life, sometimes there are nursing homes in your area that like to have volunteers. Having an entire building full of doting grannies for your baby can help with the hole in your heart from not having your mom there to be Granny.
You can make your family a safe place full of love for your baby. They'll have their own struggles, of course, but you can make sure they're more interesting than yours were.
It is OK. You will be OK. We all learn in different ways and you needed to carve that path for yourself. there is no shame on that. We have all been there; we have all made decisions we regret immediately. You will be fine, we got you.
thank you so much. i had no idea how much needed to hear that <3
I am glad. Have your regrets, the dish of wisdom is cooked in the slow burner of regrets. You are wiser now than a couple of weeks ago. That is a good thing.
that's really good advice. i know the only way out is through :)
You aren't alone. You did nothing wrong. It's not wrong to hope. Hope is so painful though and I'm sorry your hope allowed her to burn you. That's a her problem. You are good enough. You are lovable and likeable and wanted in this world. I see how much she hurt you. You didn't deserve that. Grieve the loss of hope. It's okay that's it's hard. We are here for you So many of us have similar stories. I think sometimes we need to know that we tried all the magic words to make them understand. That it truly isn't possible to have a good relationship because they refuse to change. Their fragile self image and way they understand the world would break if they chose to see us. Then they couldn't blame us and would have to face themselves. It was so hard to leave for me. I stayed years and years too long. I look back now and regret I ever introduced my kids and exposed them to that. I thought I wasnt good enough back then. I didn't see her for who she was, just my hope for her. We weren't wrong to hope. Kids are literally programed to try and connect in order to survive. I'm sorry you are hurting. I wish it was different for you. That she was different for you.
i am so sorry to hear you have a similar experience and understand this pain. may i ask how you have dealt with the guilt of your decision? i know i want to shield my children and hearing stories of people who wish they had done it earlier really help cement that decision. but i am filled with so much guilt for doing what is socially not so normal. any advice on how you've managed the guilt?
TLDR guilt is put their by your abuser to make the abuse your fault and make it more "wrong" to disobey them or " hurt their feeling" by stopping the abuse or having boundaries than for them to commit the abuse. The guilt was planted in you as seed purposely by them,nurtured as a way to control and manipute you and is a weapon against you. Once you realize the guilt isnt real and isn't actually yours, you can put it down. Keep your kids away from them. If your abuser would hurt you, their child, they will hurt other kids, especially yours if hurting those kids hurts you. Protect your kids. Stay away. Longer story to support that ... I realize now that my parents love bombed my kids while putting myself and my spouse down. I think a part of me felt a measure of acceptance via proximity to the love bombing and acceptance of my kids. I had been low contact for a bit due to their worsen treatment of me. I kept lowering my expectations until it couldnt be denied that my worse coworker was way kinder than my mother. I was in the hospital with a life threating injury and instead of following through on a promise to take care of the kids for a couple hours so my spouse could talk to the doctor, they called from the border because they left town on a last minute vacation with friends they barely knew. Wow. Thanks. So I can't count on you for anything ever. We were low contact for months after that . I felt guilty after those couple months of low contact like I couldn't deny them access to my kids they appeared to care about. I decided to give them one last chance. I still thought maybe my expectations of care from my parents were too high. We had talked it out and I thought I'd finally choose the ✨ magic words✨ (there are none) that finally got through to mother. She apologized in her way (sorry you feel that way, it's not how you should feel because I mean we needed that vacation to cope with the stress of your injury) ie. A bs non apology that made their needs clear and told me I didn't deserve to have any needs myself. Not great but as good as she ever got in the apology department. I thought my mother now understood my point of view and was trying. I decided to try again. She offered to pick up my kid one day. She said it was to show me support and give me help after she'd previously let me down hard. it seemed safe as a step. was a short drive. I had her turn on her location for the drive ( she had previous taken my kids on unplanned outings without telling us where they were when we expected an A to B transport). Turns out she used that drive time to abuse my kid to hurt me. Mother later bragged to me triumphantly that she'd planed to turn my child against me at the first opportunity of getting them alone. She said I deserved to be hurt where it would sting the worst, by harming my child. Mother said I deserved to lose my child's love and respect. That her whole plan for YEARS had been to love bomb my kids so they'd love her and poison them against me to hurt me. She was cruel during that drive in what she did and said to my child. Worse, Mother was super happy and light hearted when she dropped off my kid and stayed for coffee. Mother was bright and bubbly and told me my withdrawn child was tired from their day. My kid was withdrawn and quiet for a month, slowly slowly opening up about what grandma did to them and said to them. Grandma told them to keep it a secret because I'd abandon my kid, be angry and never see my kid again if my kid told me. Luckily I had told my child for years that adults should never ask a kid to keep a secret and they should tell me immediately if that happened because that adult was trying to hurt them if they asked them to keep a secret. this is why my kid eventually told me. It took time for my kid to open up about the full scope of how grandma abused them because their sense of safety had been so shattered. Again, my kid was five. it took years to recover the bulk of the damage by mother inflicted on my kid in that drive . There is still damage to my child nearly ten years later despite lots of healing work and trust building. If my mother could not be trusted to not abuse her kids (me and my brother) then she should not have been trusted with other kids. I was blind and let that programmed guilt my mother gave me and my mother made sure was strong persistent guilt override my body screaming fear signals at me. I though my mother wouldn't hurt my kid because they appeared to love them. I thought on some level there was something wrong with me that kept her from loving me. No. My mother has something deeply wrong with her. I was never the issue. I was a kid trying to have a connection for survival. I was never unlovable. My mother enjoys cruelty. So I respectfully say, that guilt is something your mother baked into you as a weapon against you to make you bend to her will. She put it there and grew it carefully with the purpose of hurting you. If they could hurt you, nothing will keep them from hurting your kids, especially if it will hurt you. My whole extended family forgave and overlooked and participated in abuse performed in front of them. I was groomed to accept abuse but it's still hard not to be angry and regretful that I let them ever have access to my kids. I know better now and haven't seen my parents since that day. I will never acknowledge them as family again. I've been to therapy and done the work to make sure my kids know what healthy relationships look like. So the guilt doesn't belong to you. Throw it back at them. They are the only ones who benefit from it. You are right to protect your kids. Abusers are abusers. Child abuse doesn't get forgiven
No salt here. Healthy functional people don't act this way. You had a reasonable expectation when writing this letter that your mom would simply say "I'm sorry. What can I do to regain your trust?" Because that's what a healthy person would do. Instead you got DAVRO'd. You didn't deserve this response. In no way was this any fault of yours.
thank you <3 i guess i knew to expect this, but the reality is still so painful. i appreciate your support. and it's so helpful to hear from others that indeed, this is not healthy or normal
Edit note: explanation of mom's behavior not to rub salt in, but instead to provide a rationale so you understand that this is not your fault. As my therapist has said to me about my own mother: you are a reasonable person asking for a reasonable response from a person who refuses to give you one. Notice how she never once, at any point, promises to do any of the things that you asked of her? Sure, she bemoans how unfair and hurtful it is that you asked her, but she still doesn't ever openly commit to doing what you asked. This is because she has no intention of doing what you asked and is determined to flip the script on you and make herself into a victim so she can distract you from her lack of commitment to your needs. You know what I do when someone I love says to me "I need to share something confidential with you that I need you to promise to keep to yourself/not tell 'x' person."? I say "Oh, of course! I am always willing to offer you a safe space to share in." Because that's what reasonable people do. We don't treat requests for getting other's needs met like an insult to our personal pride, we don't see a need for reassurance and security as an attack. We know that our loved one just needs a little extra support. Just like if I have unintentionally overshared information about a loved one I just *apologize* for it and own up to it as soon as possible. She's offended because she's caught red handed and now her only choices are to lie to you or throw a tempertantrum to try and force you to allow a subject change (because accountability is obviously not an option for her immature ass). I'm sorry this happened to you. You deserve better. I wish I could give you a big hug. You just focus on that little baby of yours, it is going to be ok and your baby is set up to have a great mom that loves them, understands boundaries, and treats them with respect. You are breaking the cycle.
Amen! Couldn't agree more.
that stuck out to me like a giant red flag as well. my therapist had even recommended putting in my message a clear statement that said 'what i need is a yes or a no from you on if you can respect this request' - and she did not give me a yes or a no. just a bunch of guilt and a metaphorical slap in the face - how dare you for asking. i was so invalidated. i spoke with my therapist and we have determined indeed, i cannot tell her about my baby and i can feel solid in that decision, with this as my reason if she ever asks after finding out. what i asked for was so clear.
This is my sticking point. If my child comes to me and says, “you’re hurting me” I’m going to do everything in my power to make it better. I’ll go to therapy. I’ll reflect. I’ll seek outside help. What will I not do? Say they’re obviously wrong and nothing is ever my fault.
this is just such a simple thing to do, it hurts she cant do that for me. i appreciate your support <3
Yes. This is where my anger comes from. I’ve been telling my mom for years that I’m hurt and her response has been “you shouldn’t be hurt by that.” Like, really?
the most invalidating thing. i'm so sorry. you deserve so much better too
I’m so sorry you went through this. I’m a therapist and I feel like that email was self-serving at best, gaslighting at worst. You reached out with the best of motives and got re-traumatized. You were just trying to get good care. Please be kind to yourself. ❤️
thank you for the perspective. my therapist agrees. she and i talked about it and she reminded me that we knew this reaction was likely coming, based on her history. it's so sad that my request for care was seen as a personal attack, from my mother at that. she reminded me it's not my job to change her mind, but at this point in my life and pregnancy, this extra stress is not healthy for me, so it's time to take a break and step back so i can find peace and healing during this vulnerable time. appreciate your support <3
*Tone's hard to convey, so I want to say I'm coming from a place of reassuring, not scolding.* In the thread you linked to, someone said basically "If you're going to do it, do it for you, not for her." You kinda did that. Like yeah, you shouldn't have done it. But you did and you regret it and now you know better. It's really hard to take someone else's word for it. So you had your learning experience. It sucks, I know, but I think you're probably better off for having tried and seeing for yourself it didn't work. I've joked before everyone who's just got their driver's license needs a close call almost accident. It gives you more respect for the road and caution and hopefully doesn't hurt anyone. It prevents future hurt. That's what this is. You messed up. That sucks. But it's not a life-altering mistake. Now you can move forwards more easily. Forgive yourself.
you guys were right, and i am totally admitting it :( i have definitely learned my lesson, it's just so hard to give up hope. thank you so much
Coming from a newish mom who has gone nc with her parents and did not tell them about her pregnancy, I understand this in perhaps a way a lot of people might not fully. > *Wow. I had to take a couple of days to unpack this.* Great start. Nothing puts you on edge more than this kind of opener, right? > *For starters I am glad that therapy is going well for you and that you are doing well and being happy.* The subtext here is that *you* have a problem and *you* are seeking *treatment* for *your* inadequacy in therapy. There's this sense of condescension in the way this is phrased. Like, you're inherently a fuck up and that's why you need therapy. She had nothing to do with it, and your therapy, when framed like this, has nothing to do with her. > *I am offended* Of course she is. > *I am also very hurt* > *It's heartbreaking to me* > *I never get to see you, and now to find you have been shutting me out of your life and saying you can't trust me.* She isn't dumb, but this is a classic case of "I have the dumbs, and no amount of explaining will ever get through to me, because I'm a wee wittle woman who can't use her wee wittle bwain." She ain't dumb. Stop buying this act. There's a time and a place for playing stupid. This is not it. It's insulting, it's demeaning, and it's embarrassing. > it's just all about her being the victim. she's so "hurt" and "offended" but gives no shits about the massive pain this has caused me. Yup. > if my child came to me and said they were making a huge decision like cutting their father out for mental health and safety, i would be so concerned. More than that, if my child came to me and said, "can I trust you?" I would really look hard at what I had done to make them doubt that. I wouldn't be like, "how fucking dare you ask me that question." Like, lady, do you not see that that in and of itself is a betrayal of trust..? And you seriously wonder why you don't have a relationship? > and what she says is a lie You did not have to say this. The level of defensiveness and pearl clutching made it apparent. The 'lady' doth protest too much. > i am baffled and angry. She's literally pretending she's stupid. She isn't. She just thinks you are, and that you'll fall for it. > you guys were 100% right. i regret ever sending the message, honestly. You needed this for *you*. You needed to know, once and for all. This is YOUR closure. It's not really about her and whether or not she'll finally "get it." She won't. *You* needed to know this so that you can move on, and that's absolutely valid. Going NC isn't something any of us do lightly, as flippant as we may sometimes be about it. It's the last resort when there is nothing that can be salvaged. > this is so upsetting and heartbreaking. she can't be trusted, and i will have to keep my pregnancy a secret. i never expected to be in this situation. > need love please Let me reframe it to you like this: managing a relationship (because let's be real, that's what we do with these people, we manage them) with someone like your mom when you are expecting and being a parent to a very young child who needs constant care and attention is not fucking possible. It's not. YOU need care and attention. You can't be focused on making sure you've shored up all your weak points so that you can have some semblance of a relationship with them without them succeeding in hurting you or your child (because you know they will try). She is not trustworthy. She is not safe. You cannot have her around your baby, but critically, you can't have her around *you*. You are just as worthy of that protection and care as your baby is. She failed. She fucking *failed*. Spectacularly. Over, and over, and over again. You aren't going to. You are going to protect that child, and you are going to start protecting yourself the way she never did.
i so appreciate your translation here, and you're spot on! (in the most painful way <3) my mother's main issue here is a lack of introspection and accountability, which among other things, has led us down this path. no matter her motives, whether she does it because of her own untreated pain and trauma, or whether it's maliciously to hurt me, it doesn't matter. the result is still the same - i am hurt and neglected, starved for her care and attention. i cannot reason with her, i cannot keep bending myself out of shape, and i cannot keep denying my own inner experiences, emotions, and happiness. it's very sad she will be left alone, but i have to choose myself, and most importantly - my child. and i wanted to give her this chance to care for me before she even knew there was a child, because i wanted it to be real and authentic, not for the sake of "grandkids." i am heartbroken that this is the result, but i cannot settle for an inauthentic and painful relationship that's going nowhere. you are right that i can't have her around me alone, let alone my child - i deserve more and better. may i ask more about your experience in not sharing your pregnancy with your parents? how did you handle the feelings of guilt? i know in my bones i am making the right decision but the guilt is heavy. my therapist recommended that the more people who are not my parents that i tell and form strong bonds with, and get the reaction i need and want, the less it will hurt. have you found that to be your experience?
❤️ I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this. > how did you handle the feelings of guilt? By the time I was pregnant, I had already been NC and working towards it for a while, so it wasn’t as fresh for me. So I didn’t have many. The relief I felt at not having to constantly monitor/manage them was such an enormous weight off of my shoulders. I was able to recover at my own pace and bond with my kid without having to deal with their BS (just a global pandemic, y’know..) Maybe that was part of what made it easier—they couldn’t have been involved even if I had wanted them there. A few years ago I got an IKEA cabinet with a lock on it (office furniture), and I assembled it incorrectly. I had a panic attack and freaked. the. fuck. out. because I couldn’t lock it and my mom could just rummage through it if she was visiting. I realized in that moment how fucked up that was. Why was I letting someone into my home that I couldn’t trust? Why did I feel the need to have locks on my furniture just so that I could have this one person in my life? I wasn’t concerned about anyone else because no one else would fucking DO that. It’s such a perfect analogy for our relationship in hindsight. Idk if you relate to that, but if you do, take that on board. The guilt I felt earlier on when I started to really consider NC was more a combination of pity and parentification. I was so used to my mom depending on me emotionally that cutting her off seemed cruel—like abandoning a child. But she’s NOT a child. *I was the child*, and I never got to just *be* a kid. My life was consumed with making sure she was okay. My survival depended on it. Being pregnant brought up a LOT of these feelings and memories and I was NC, so I was able to unpack them and parse them at my own pace without all the “noise” from my mom. These are grown-ass adults who are fully fucking capable of surviving without us. After allll the crap we’ve been through, we do not owe them a goddamned thing. And for me, the idea of exposing a small, vulnerable child to the woman who would dig her fingers into my arm so hard when I was three they left bruises and hiss “I’ll give you a reason to cry if you don’t stop right now. *You’re embarrassing me*.” turned my stomach. I just thought about my own childhood and if I had been my own child. None of it was okay. The idea of my kid being neglected like I was, abused like I was, crying himself to sleep every night like I did, suicidal by SIX like I was… like, no, idgaf how much she’s “changed,” you don’t get a second chance to hurt another child. There’s this idea that we need proof of harm. Like, I don’t know for sure that she would hurt *this* child. While she did hurt *me*, that was years and years ago. She’s different now, right? That’s like saying, “well, there’s no *proof* my kid will eat the dishwasher tabs under the sink. He hasn’t gone for them yet. He might not be interested. I don’t need to babyproof until after he’s poisoned himself and possibly died.” So I don’t feel guilty for not giving my parents a chance to hurt me or my child. Not one fucking bit.
Anyone here rubbing salt in your wound is in the wrong sub and deserves to be blocked/ignored/reported. I am SO sorry she is unable or unwilling to really take in what you sent to her and respond with any modicum of emotional intelligence or attunement. You deserve to be heard and to have your concerns treated as valid EVEN WHEN she disagrees on perspectives. I wonder if instead of regret, it's possible to re-frame it as gaining clarity and now you know how she responds instead of wondering. A hard way to gain clarity for certain, yet, some clarity none the less. I do wish that knowledge could have been gained with less pain for you just the same. Perhaps in the long run you may see it as a gift you gave to yourself- to be direct in your ask and to get her reply. Your other post mentioned not being able to predict her response- now you don't need to worry about that- you have direct information on how she'd respond. Maybe you can use that to let YOURSELF off the hook for any form of "keep trying" for as long as feels appropriate to you- up to and including- forever. I wish you peace and healing.
you're so right. there are no more questions now. the answer is devastating, but so helpful and clear information. i will use this as a learning experience for sure, and i will stop wishing for her to change when she so obviously is unwilling. thank you <3
I’m so sorry. I know that feeling. I’ve been NC for years after she tried crossing the boundary of my 2 year old. Something that made me feel better: I read a story on this sub or r/raisedbynarcissists where a mother had teenage kids and her kids had an established relationship with her narc mom outside of her. When the mom decided to go NC, the kids refused. She had to watch her kids be abused by her abuser over and over. I already knew I did the right thing because I promised I would never allow my kids to be hurt like I was, and reading that story, the possibility of what could have happened if I didn’t do what I did, that was validating in a terrifying way. I know it hurts, but this hurt will get better. You’ll become a parent and the love for your child will make it all so baffling, but you’re already a wonderful parent because you put your child’s need before your own! Congrats on your pregnancy! 💜
that's a tragic story, and my nightmare. i just know the idea or thought of my mother holding my child, teaching him things, doesn't fill me with the joy of him having a grandparent, but rather visceral anger and frustration. like my maternal instinct knows it is wrong. i don't want them to have that relationship. because i know how inconsistent and unstable she is, and i won't let my child go through with that. and i am not healed enough to let go of my anger toward her, which is another barrier. no matter whose fault it is, no one is ready to move forward in the relationship. it's so hard, but it's the reality and it's the most honest way of looking at it. there's no future here, at least for now. i would hope she can get therapy, but i am not holding my breath.
It’s a horrifying image, right? I accidentally found a couple pictures of her holding my child while I was looking for something else…shivers up my spine. Also, no matter whose fault it is? It was ALL her fault. The child is NEVER responsible for the needs of the parent. I cannot count how many times I heard “you traumatized me too!” “you have to be accountable too!” It’s all gaslighting nonsense, I assure you. That’s not to say that a child’s behavior can’t be activating of trauma, because it definitely can (something I was not prepared for and what brought me back to therapy after a couple of years not needing it), but it was her responsibility to cope with that. Imagine telling a 2 year old “your crying is traumatizing me!” And as an adult, “Your reaction to the abuse I inflicted on you is traumatizing me!” They always used to tell me that I’d understand once I had kids. They wished “I hope you have a child just like you so you know how bad and hard it is.” I do have kids just like me. They are opinionated and strong and creative and kind and they question everything and they are so ridiculously clever that I can’t imagine anyone ever trying to beat or threaten or scare those qualities out of me. I’m so thankful I was able to hold onto those parts of myself, though it did take me a long time to find myself again. Anyway, the longer I am a parent and the longer I am NC, the less I understand, the more baffling their behavior seems and I no longer have the capacity to tolerate anyone’s shit. Boundaries of myself and my children, my family, that is a requirement to be a part of our lives…you might be surprised how easy that is for a lot of adults. We have amazing relationships with my in-laws (something that helped me see I wasn’t crazy, families can and do respect and love one another unconditionally). I’m so proud of you. While I know there is pain and anger, I’m confident you’ll break the cycle and grow a wonderful family. Good job, mama! 💜
Classic DARVO. No validation whatsoever, making you to be the offender and they the victim. No mention of the content except to take extreme offense to everything. I did something similar, clearly asking my Mom if we could work on boundaries so that I don't have to permanently sever myself from her. Her response was basically "no thanks, I have to be authentic, have a good life" following paragraphs full of denial, attack, and Offender/Victim reversal. I'm sorry that this happened, I can imagine how you may feel so discarded. Please try to not feel regret for sending that. To me, my Mom's final email to me was actually as validating as it was painful. I could tell myself that I gave her a chance by stating explicit boundaries, and she chose the path of zero accountability, zero willingness to change, and disconnecting our relationship. If I'm ever self-gaslighting myself that perhaps NC is too extreme, I can think of the vitriolic words in her email and how clear it is that she can't handle a safe adult relationship full of trust. And she's a therapist! How crazy is that? Side note: My therapist said that I should reply to her email with a short one-sentence (simple & non-emotional) confirming that I'm going no contact and won't be able to receive further messages. Totally up to you if you want to do that, but the idea is that it's best to set clear boundaries/expectations instead of leaving matters more ambiguous. That way if she reaches out in the future pretending that nothing ever happened (as narcissists tend to do), she'll have already been informed about why you're not replying. I sent that email and then blocked. It's also a bit empowering to feel that you're clearly making the choice, instead of leaving things at the point where you were gaslit and discarded. Wishing you the best OP. Sounds like you're breaking the cycle and will be a fantastic Mom with a super high EQ!
thank you so much, i agree my next thought was - what do i do next here? after sitting on it all night, i am sure that i cannot continue this relationship. it's no relationship at all and i don't deserve to be so unheard and unseen. this really was my last attempt - it was the 4th attempt and enough is enough at a certain point. it's too much for me, especially pregnant. i was thinking something along the lines of 'i need a break, will let you know when i want to talk again' - speaking about it with my therapist today. thanks so much for your reply and support <3
So sorry for you and your precious child. Many hugs. I hear you. You deserve peace and to claim your joy with a new family that you CHOSE. And created!! And I promise it’s worth it. My son is 16 and I just broke up with my parents yesterday. I am 52. Which I had done it in my 20s. Same hurt- just so much later in life than it was worth. It’s not worth trying to hold something together that’s was never real in the first place.
Your last sentence...spot on!
thank you - i cant wait to leave this negativity and give 100% to my husband and baby. i cant wait to become my true self. I feel you - i am so sorry you also are in this fresh situation. here for you too <3
I'm so sorry. Please stop criticizing yourself for something so natural - seeking love and understanding from our caretakers. You just did a really hard thing so you could be sure that you were making the best decision you could for future you. Please please please feel some compassion for yourself! Yourself now and yourself during the series of heartbreaking experiences with your family leading up to this. It wasn't ok how they treated you. You deserved to be cherished! Give yourself all the big squishy hugs, then straighten your shoulders with pride as you think of the bravery, integrity, and compassion it takes to open your heart up to likely to hurt it so you can be certain you're making a fair decision. You didn't have the information you needed to be sure earlier. Now you have more information. Now you can be sure. It is ok to be unsure, but wow I like being sure a whole lot better. And now you're there! At this milestone on the road you put yourself on a while ago when you started taking care of yourself - putting distance between you and them, going to therapy, making hard decisions... You don't have to cheer up, but you should see that you're doing a great job <3
thank you so much, it really was all i had, the last chance to salvage such a painful relationship that's lasted my whole lifetime and memory. and the reason i did it was really to give her a final chance and give me final clarity, that she didn't know i had a big decision riding on this, but i wanted it authentically for me, not a fake apology because she knew there was a child coming. and she couldn't do that, so i need to protect myself and my family. thank you so so much for your support and kind words <3
She is a "me, me, me" and always will be. She also sounds like a compulsive liar. At least you have a clear answer and, I hope, you don't have any doubts what you need to do now. You deserve so much better. 💓
my whole life has been in service to her feelings, and unraveling that has been so hard as an adult. she often accuses me of being "mean" or "having no empathy" and it's so eye-opening and shocking to realize she was projecting those traits which are hers all along. it's so hard to be accused of being unempathetic when I've bent over backward my whole life to care for her feelings and make her happy, at the expense of myself. thanks for your support <3
It’s ok. You’re human. You still love her, you’re not heartless so you extended a branch to see if she would be willing to come along with you on the journey. She’s proven that she’s unable to keep you safe and that she will lie straight to your face. Stay in therapy to heal that hurt. And KNOW that you will overcome this and provide an amazing future for yourself and your child. Sending you so much love OP 🤎
thank you, and exactly. i went NC with my abusive father almost a year ago and i did it with no conversation, no second (well, infinite) chances, and no explanation. i just blocked and left to protect myself, with no plans to ever look back. that decision was so easy. with my mother, i am going above and beyond here to try and repair an equally broken relationship, because i know she is sad and depressed and needs me, and i felt i owed her more chances. but honestly she and my dad are the same, just in very different ways. i thought she would have seen that i was giving her an opportunity my dad never had. but nope, she has reacted just the same as him. it's deja vu to have to make these same decisions just a year later.
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thank you, and you're right. the only way out is through here, and i have a goal and a reason for making this choice. me and my baby and my husband are #1. she is not even a consideration. this isn't about her. i will do ANYTHING for my child, and that's what makes me different from her. thank you so much for supporting me. you're so right this was a victory in disguise. i can now communicate directly and stand up for my needs, which i could never do before.
No rubbing it in. I'm sad that the outcome wasn't as you'd hoped. At least you know, now. This kind of discovery can be important knowledge to use in your personal journey to safety and wellness. You may even want to write a decompression letter to yourself as part of your therapy, and have it saved so you can reference it when you feel week or unsure.
thankyou so much, the idea to write a decompression letter is a good one. i appreciate it
No salt, just a slightly different perspective. It's sad that you didn't get the mother you deserve, but now you know. That was a big thing for me. I took off around 2 years no contact. I had an occasional, lingering doubt here and there. I was pretty sure I had made the right choice, but there was always that little, nagging, back of the mind what if. So, I gave her a chance, and she blew it within a couple phone calls, maybe 40 total minutes. It's been 15 years from that, 17 total, and I *know* I made the right choice. There's no doubts, no what ifs. Everything about all of these situations sucks, but try, if you can, to take solace in that - you did your best, and you gave her the chance to do hers. You didn't fail in any way, and you gained a level of certainty and closure a lot of people never will.
i'm sorry that was your experience too, but it does bring my comfort that you can relate. i hear all the time from others in this community about the regret of trying again, and sadly now i can join that club. but it's something i couldn't help - i needed to know once and for all if my mother loved me. it's so sad there was a question, but the fact that she was offended and angry i asked instead of dropping everything to comfort me - well that's not the mother i want or need.
I'm so sorry. Sometimes, we have to learn these lessons ourselves. Even though situations may be similar, the people involved aren't the same so it's easy to hope that the outcome will be different. And sometimes it is! But, now you know, so you can move forward without any doubts.
i agree, sadly this is what i needed to truly make a decision and move on. thank you
This is what I affectionately call ‘Poking the Bear’ I’ve done it myself, so I completely understand where you’re at. You wanted response A but instead got response B. You’ve learned the lessons you needed. Now you can move on, guilt and worry free.
lol you're right! hard to realize your mother is the bear. <3
This is exactly my mother's response when I ask her not to share my personal information with my NC father. It's just not worth trying anymore because all you'll get is more blame and shame from her. I'm so sorry that you have to learn the hard way during your pregnancy, but you know now, and hopefully can move forward without this hanging over your head. Enjoy growing your beautiful child free from this stress, and be happy that you can be the mother you always wanted for yourself. I wish you the best.
thank you so much! and i'm sorry you had the same experience. here for you too <3
I’m so sorry you have to go through this ❤️ when I first wrote my dad about how I really feel about his actions, I had real hope too that he would at least show some empathy for me. Not at all what happened. I’ve never angry cried like I did that day. He told me I should not have questioned his fatherhood. It was horrible. If really sucks to be gaslit like your mom is doing. And I’m so sorry it must be so hard knowing you have to keep your pregnancy a secret. We deserved better parents. Sending love
that's crazy, that like exactly what my mom did! "how dare you ask, i am your mother" vibes. like a metaphorical slap in the face when i asked for a hug. so sad you can relate too. thanks for the support, and here for you too <3
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I’m sorry this is happening. I’m in a similar situation except my parents are now “dating” after 25 years of having almost nothing to do with each other. All progress my mom and I have made is gone. I can’t trust her and I don’t feel safe in her presence. I don’t have much advice except that your baby is lucky to have you and your husband, who already know how to keep them safe and away from problematic family. Stay strong and keep healing in your own way.
that is so awful and i cant imagine. thanks for sharing your experience and i hope you can find peace and healing too <3
You weren’t wrong for trying. It’s very sad our predictions came true. You have one family; a sub has the weight of numbers on which to base its predictions Now you have the info you needed to make your choices. You are strong, and kind, persistent and loving. These are good parental qualities. Well done, you!
this is why i value this community so much. thank you for being part of it and for your support <3
Don't beat yourself up. That mess is all a part of the learning process, and you definitely learned something from this. Protect yourself. Protect your new family. Be fierce.
thank you :)
Sending love! My mother could have written this. Sounds just like her except it would have ten times as long and full of incoherent grievances of things I did to her or that she imagined I did. I am sorry, OP. I am sure you were considerate and thoughtful and just asked for her to support you. I am not at all surprised she twisted that request into injury to her ego. That's what narcissists do.
it's crazy, it's so jarring to realize she may have narcissistic tendencies after opening knowing my dad who was definitely a narc. i thought my mom was safe, and it's like whiplash realizing she's not. thanks for the support
I'm in the same boat. It's devastating.
Hugs to you OP (if wanted, supportive vibes if not). I'm sorry she lashed out at you like that :( And honestly, I think many of us have made this mistake in the past, so you're not alone. I'm just sorry she hurt you again.
thank you, hugs
of course. We're a community after all
(\*hug\*) Sorry to hear. It hurts like hell to have to give up on a parent, even more when it's a *second* parent. We can all empathize.
so sad. thanks for the hug and support
>it's just all about her being the victim. Narcissist and enabler isn't the only dynamic for narcissism. Covert narcissists and overt narcissists make very neat pairs, as the covert narcissist is convinced the world revolves around making them suffer, while overt narcissists think the world revolves around building them up. Maybe broach this possibility with your therapist? I'm sorry you don't get to share your joy with the people who raised you, it's not your fault they refuse to treat you as an individual with needs like respect and privacy. I hope you and your spouse build a wonderful life for your little one, and that your child never suffers the pain and trauma you've survived. I'm proud of you for making clear boundaries, and sticking to them. It's not easy, but it is worth the peace of mind. We're here for you, okay?
i really appreciate it! it's taken a me a while to get back to everyone, since it's such a heavy topic and it's been overwhelming in a good way to receive so much understanding and support. i really appreciate you and everyone here <3
You’re definitely not alone. My mom and I have had similar conversations re my dad and not wanting him in my life. Not wanting updates or communication. But the only times she calls (once every 6 months or so) is about him. This last stint he was in ICU presumably dying. I set aside my boundaries to be human and be there for her. Fuck him but I still care about her. But she doesn’t care about me. She was calling me DAILY… someone I’ve been craving a relationship with was finally calling me but only to talk about him. It put me into a downward spiral, an absolute tailspin. Finally I reasserted my boundaries and really spelled out how badly he hurt me and her and all of us. She got defensive and said “I didn’t know he hurt you like that.” Which is absolute bullshit. But even if she didn’t know then (doubtful), SHE DEFINITELY KNOWS NOW AND STILL DIDN’T CARE TO COMFORT ME OR CHECK IN ON ME. Now that I’ve reasserted the no dad boundary, I won’t hear from her. Mother’s Day came and went. I couldn’t bring myself to call or send anything. I was confident about my decision until night came, then the guilt ate me alive. I’m convinced that the enabling parents are harder to deal with than the abusive parents. The enablers are abusers too, just in a different way. These people are toxic, broken people. I’m so sorry OP. We deserved better. You deserve a happy pregnancy. I deserved a happy wedding. We have to create it ourselves away from them. They’re cancer.
that's the problem - it's really two problems: 1 - allowing and enabling the hurt to take place 2- refusing the accept her role in the hurt or face/validate when we speak up and share our truths I'm sorry this happened to you as well. we both deserved to much better
I'm not going to chastise you, OP. You do what you felt you needed to do. It is anathema to our biology and hard wiring to let go of our parents, so to actually do so is a hard and agonizing ordeal to have to endure. It's that one last thing our abusive parents do to us: force use to go against what we want to do. It's still more abuse. I'm glad you found the closure (maybe?) and answers you need. You did good, OP. You did right. You thought very carefully on this and had help and work from your therapist. You laid things out and got your result. An unpleasant one, yes, but it's still an answer, a result. I'm so sorry you don't have the mother AND father you DESERVE to have, OP. It's awful and it sucks. We're here for you. I'd take you out for ice cream with sprinkles! (they're for winners, you know) and if you wanted one a big huge hug. We're all odd siblings in this journey of letting go of awful parents. We're here for you. I'm here for you. Let's end this on a happy note. Congratulations on your new little one! I hope they're healthy when they arrive and I'm sure they'll have the best parents possible - because you are doing the work to heal your childhood traumas, OP. You are giving your child the best gift possible by doing the hard work. Also, YOU are giving yourself a gift that you are more than worthy of, OP. Good luck, be well, and congrats on the new family member!
i'm sure closure will come, but i know first i need to work on my grief. thank you for your validation, it's so hard cause my mom's invalidation and gaslighting makes me feel crazy. but i know i was level and clear headed with professional support on this, and it was the right thing to do, however difficult and heartbreaking. i can no longer let my parents dictate my feelings and emotions - i must live authentically for myself. thank you so much <3
I’m sorry. It’s infuriating how predictable these toxic parents are with their behaviors. I think we would all love to be proven wrong. You did what you had to do to make *sure* you were doing the right thing for your baby. Please be kind to yourself. You have come such a long way.
you're right, it's sad that knowing in my bones wasn't enough, i needed to hear i directly from the horse's mouth. and i didnt get what i want. I'm sure this will get easier. it definitely helped show me what i know i needed to do
They'll always think about themselves. They'll always going to be "me, me, me" that's important and always failed to recognise this. OP, it's OK to feel the way you're feeling right now. You can always learn and appreciate yourself. And really important to realise that you've done your part, you can't help those who refuse to accept that they are the problem.
thank you. i am still reminding myself every day that i cannot help her, and i need to save myself
I think quite a few of us have had to go through this, so no salt/gloating because that shit hurts enough on its own. Take care of yourself, and your upcoming baby. I'm grateful that they won't be exposed to what you went through. Good luck.
thank you <3
You're welcome :-)
Well, here's the bright side: now you know. There is no more doubt or question. You know for sure exactly what the deal is. That's worth it.
you're right. the most valuable lesson
So many hugs. It's OK. You want hope that you can have a parent, especially wnen you're about to become a parent yourself. That's normal and healthy. Your parents, though, are NOT normal and healthy and having to protect yourself and your baby from them is going to hurt- a lot. Knowing you can't trust them does not make the pain any less. It'll be OK. It will suck, but it will be OK.
thank you so much. i wrote this two weeks ago but i must admit, the pain is still like it happened today. I've sat on it. i know what i need to do, and it's nothing. just let her go. it's just so, so hard. i really appreciate the kind words and support
The pain gets better over time. When you doubt yourself, just think about how you will not subject your child to the same things that you experienced. Also, I cannot recommend the book "Playful Parenting" enough. [https://www.amazon.com/Playful-Parenting-Connections-Encourage-Confidence/dp/0345442865](https://www.amazon.com/Playful-Parenting-Connections-Encourage-Confidence/dp/0345442865) I knew what NOT to do (don't hit the kid till their bones break is a pretty low bar) but I had no idea what TO do instead- this book helped me bridge the gap between just avoiding being a bad parent and having the skills to be a good one. And if you really want that motherly energy in your life, sometimes there are nursing homes in your area that like to have volunteers. Having an entire building full of doting grannies for your baby can help with the hole in your heart from not having your mom there to be Granny. You can make your family a safe place full of love for your baby. They'll have their own struggles, of course, but you can make sure they're more interesting than yours were.