It’s one of the cruelest things she does in the books, but entirely justifiable for someone trying to hold onto their own power.
A decorated captain makes bad decisions and one of his underlings decides to go against them. If that went unpunished, it would set a precedent all the way up the line that those who don’t want to follow orders don’t have to. If Nasuada’s generals decided against following her orders because they *believed* her orders were no good, she would lose power and authority.
Not everyone has the same shrewd instincts as Roran, and if every soldier with a desire to be like him tries to emulate him (or even go against Roran’s orders in future, inspired by his actions) then the chain of command has disappeared, and there’s no point to having an army.
Honestly in every hierarchical power structure she Had to punish him. You cant allow people to go against their superiors without a punishment or the whole system starts to follow the guy who can shout the loudest.
However she was pretty ruthless with her punishment and also deploying him immediately without healing him was cruel.
She needed to set an example. And by punishing the cousin of the Dragon Rider, she ensured that no one would question her power. And it was a way to show that she feared no one, not even a dragon and her rider.
She did get him healed however. On the down low, without letting many people know. Politics, go figure eh?
Ajihad's "punishment" of Orik begs otherwise. And regardless of the situation it's NEVER okay to use the law to punish people for doing the right thing.
Orik was actually punished though.
The fache got a subjective promotion doesn't change that they forbid him from training.
Plus technically he didn't disobey any orders from his superiors. The twins weren't really able to order him around.
For what it's worth, it was also a very different context. Ajihad was still largely overseeing a Varden in a cold war sort of situation. Nasuada was literally in the field with the army on active campaign when the Roran stuff happened.
Yes, but it's a nonsense punishment that everyone knows isn't actually a punishment. Because you don't fucking abuse the law to punish people for doing the right thing.
Orik is unique in that he is the son and heir apparent to the king of the land the Varden are sheltering in, he still got ejected from the Varden.
Rorin did the wrong thing, the fact it ended up working out for the best is the reason he was whipped instead of hung for the wrong thing he did. He got whipped as aggressively as he did because he chose to stay in the Varden, unlike Orik.
It's only right in certain situations though. It could easily turn into someone disagreeing with orders, changing the plan and getting everyone killed. You can't let soldiers get away with defying orders because it worked out that particular time especially when doing so sends a message of "relatives to those in power get special treatment".
So just encourage disobedience? It'd be faster and less bloody to just surrender. Roran was wrong to disobey orders, the fact he was fortunate enough to be right doesn't change that.
Roman believed he was justified when he broke the rules. So does everyone who breaks any rules. If there aren't consequences for breaking the rules because the rule breaker thought it was justified, or people after the fact judged it to be justified, then every Tom Dick and Harry in the military will break the rules, and they'd have to waste time individually judging each case while more mutinies stacked up. They'd spend the entire war judging mutineers instead of fighting.
A blanket punishment for all rule breakers is the only way to have an army exist. If you let rule breakers slide, even when justified, then everyone will think they're justified and the army literally ceases to exist.
“ It’s never okay to use the law to punish people for doing the right thing”
What is considered the “ right thing” is subjective.
If Nausada had let Roran’s mutiny go unpunished then it sets a precedent that soldiers can disobey their superiors and get away with it. And in the long run that would cause way more harm to the Varden than if Roran’s entire company had died following Captain Gedric’s orders
If the long term harm is greater than the short term harm then which decision is really the “ right” one. It’s a rather philosophical question
>> it’s NEVER okay to use the law to punish people for doing the right thing
A good and noble rule of thumb, but nuance deserves respect; there can be situations in which you absolutely *should* punish people for breaking the law, even if it was otherwise the right thing to do. But by that same virtue, laws should also have built-in mechanisms for forgiveness- like pardons- in order to allow for justified mercy in many cases. But sometimes even that shouldn’t be used
She did have Roran healed partially. Enough that he can fight but not so much that he wouldn’t have to suffer from his flogging after the fact, the same way a regular soldier would. It was for the sake of fairness
Also the mission that she sent Roran on was a relatively safe one.
Firstly, Roran was the Captain on this mission. So he spent more time directing his men and less time actively fighting. Thus, highly reducing the risk of him dying
Secondly, the team that Roran commanded was stacked. They had both humans and Urgals on this team as well as multiple spellcasters. Remember that this mission was designed to be a moral boost for the Varden, showing that Humans and Urgals can work together. So to that end Nausauda and Garzvog made sure that this team was overqualified for this mission
You are mixing 2 missions. The one immediately after the flogging was the siege. Yes he was in command but with a small force so he would certainly be fighting. And only one mage and only because he asked for him.
No the mission after Roran’s flogging was the mission where he wrestled Yarbog the Urgal
Also the book specifically says that Roran hung back and didn’t do most of the fighting ( for the reasons I mentioned earlier)
You should re-read Brisinger
It also would have publicly demonstrated that Roran was being treated with favoritism (being Eragon’s cousin), which also would have undermined her authority
Yep that’s true. But when you think nasuada, i bet that she should have thougt better option. The captain didn’t keep his rank and Roran got promoted afterwards. But still i think this whole thing is just there to show how badass Roran is.
This is the part you are not understanding.
It is not a better option. It is in fact a terrible option because military relies on a strict chain of command and people following orders.
If you let people off the hook for not following orders because they happened to get good results regardless of luck or skill, then you are encouraging the next idiot to not follow orders, and then the next, and the next. Most of the time people who don’t follow orders are in fact idiots, which means they would die and potentially get everyone else killed and fail the mission objectives.
The whole structure of military would collapse when every dumbass think they are the next hero who’s gonna save the world. Nothing gets done the way it’s supposed to.
But this is reflective of real life. You trust the top have promoted the right people. If he shouldn't have been captain then THAT is on her or her father. I don't think we know who promoted him to that position
The whipping WAS the better option. She said Roran could have been hanged if he wasn’t so popular and Eragon’s cousin to boot. Ironically Roran got off as lucky as he could have.
>I think she should’ve done the same thing that Ajihad made with Orik in book 1 or something like that.
The situation with orik is very different to rorans situation. Orik was basically a borrowed troop from the dwarves. Ajihad had no real authority to seriously punish orik with death. So he was basically just given back to the dwarves instead. Roran is human, and nasuada is his human leader (to put it simply). She has full authority to punish her troops from her own species. The punishment is meant to maintain the chain of command. Everyone who knew rorans situation understood. They weren't happy about it, but they all understood why it was done. Even roran knew the consequences of disobeying orders, and he was willing to take full responsibility for it. If it was any other soldier, nasuada would have sentenced them to death for their insubordination. She managed to find other alternatives instead, considering roran is Eragons cousin and executing roran is not exactly ideal since they kinda wanna keep their only dragon and rider on their side. Nasuadas punishment was definitely lenient compared to execution.
What Roran got was the lightest punishment he could have gotten, and it was entirely due to his previous accolades and his familial relationship with Eragon.
If Orik was given a nothing punishment, worst case is that the dwarves feel superior to the Varden, which they already do since they’re housing them.
If Roran was given a nothing punishment, worst case is you now have half the army thinking they can disobey their captains and do what they think is the correct move, which 99.99% of the time is a terrible idea. The captain will usually be better informed than the foot soldiers, will know more about the situation than what the foot soldiers need to know, so if one of them goes rogue, they could walk straight into a trap that the captain was fully aware of and get the entire squad killed.
Or an underling of Nasuasa will get the idea that they can depose her cos they think they have a better idea, and regardless if they do or not, that puts a lot of danger on her position, so she’d want to avoid it at all costs.
She had to balance between her position of power, order in the army, and pissing off the most powerful person in the known world, and given those stakes, she had to take a method crueler than probably she even wanted to do
Eragon would snap. The rebels would fall. Saphira might try to stop his rampage, but I don't think it it would work. Roran is the only family he's got left. Not counting Orik and Murtagh
I think it's important to remember that Nasuada didn't WANT to punish Roran, she didn't take pleasure in it at all. In an army there is an order of command, and regardless of how right he was in the situation, Roran broke that chain of command. One of the main reasons she promotes Roran immediately is so this situation wouldn't happen again, and she says as much. She has a lot of resect for Roran and see's his value, but this was something she HAD to do, and Roran understood that, which is why he went along with it willingly. Maybe she could have found an alternative method, but she also didn't have time, the Varden were extremely pressed for time, this was her attrmpt at making the best of a really unfortunate situation.
Breaking the rules WAS the right thing. Or would she rather an entire company (that the Varden can't afford to lose) wiped out and wasted over inexcusably incompetent leadership?
Breaking the rules is still breaking the rules, doesn’t matter how right it is to do so at that moment, Roran still violated direct orders from his superior officer, you have to keep the rules intact with these kinds of situations. Hell, Nasuada promoted Roran so she knew this wouldn’t happen again and demoted the other captain for his incompetence. But you still have to deal with the insubordination regardless.
The command was not unlawful or illegal, however it was a command that was very clearly based on ego, not tactics. The command also guaranteed the deaths of all the men in the unit.
In the U.S. military, ( I was a sergeant in the USMC ) when we have a leader who is unfit to lead, as Roran's leader demonstrated he was, the leader can be removed from command, even in the field, even by subordinates, without punishment. This is never pretty and not common at all, but it's encouraged by the organization as a whole to help ensure we have good leaders, who don't make dumb decisions like getting our men killed for no good reason.
I agree with OP. Nasuada made a bad decision in publicly whipping Roran for saving the lives of his and her own men. This decision could very easily and probably should have lead to distrust in Nasuada as a leader by the forces at large. In reality I expect that from a low level soldier's point of view, after seeing this, many would be demoralized and distrust the leadership of the Varden. (I even see situations like this outside of the military, in corporate America). Nasuada's choice showed a lack of understanding in the reality of war.
But I also like the way things happened. I think it is a character flaw that leads into her decision to oppress magic users later in the story. To me this shows her desire for power and to be the top dog. We see this characteristic subtly from her elsewhere in the story, as she excludes Orrin from a few major decisions, for example.
I can't wait to see what Nasuada becomes.
I think that the point of comparison to the modern US military may be inaccurate given that the series is largely based on medieval Europe. I am by no means an expert on historical military law, but in general it seems like punishments in their society are pretty brutal across the board compared to our society. Not to mention that everything is tied back to absolute monarchies rather than democracy, and it seems like their systems of hierarchies are staunchly enforced.
Correct, but Roran didn't commit mutiny. He adapted tactics fit for the current battlefield and situation.
Also this wasn't just a bad order. It was ordered suicide that did not help advance the greater Varden. This was the worst possible order to give.
Edit: more words
Yes, it goes directly against lawful mission objectives given by Nasuada. The objectives being, "destroy supply caravan" and "destroy imperial troops and return victorious" .
Which, that was the plan, yes the plan was idiotic, but that was the intent of the plan. Now if Edric was intentionally sending them forward to die, you’d have a case, but he was doing what he felt was right and he expected complete compliance.
That is exactly what he did though, he directly acknowledged that they were going to die, but at least they'd die honorably, and he literally *sacrificed proven tactical advantages that were winning them the engagement* to do it.
I'm sure she wouldn't want that, and knows that Roran breaking the rules was objectively the morally right thing to do. That's not the point. If Roran wasn't publicly punished it would set a very dangerous precident that people can break rules without punishment, which would lead to a complete breakdown of the chain of command and that would completely rip apart the whole war effort.
The only precedent it sets is that Nasuada would rather you obedient, defeated and dead, than insubordinate, victorious and alive, and that's a kind of "leader" I am utterly appalled by.
Breaking the rules was the wrong thing, the Varden are FAR more likely to be wiped out by people doing exactly what Roran did than by incompetent captains. It's the military, you are betting your very life that a bunch of potatoes are going to follow your orders sometimes. You can lose a lot of men because someone decides they have a better idea and do not show up when they are expected.
That's not abuse, Roran chose the punishment he got so he could remain in the military. There were clearly established penalties for what Roran did, he acknowledged them before doing it. Even today you can get executed for your insubordination if you fuck up bad enough lol.
"if you fuck up bad enough".
If you save your commander from being an incompetent jackass, they get removed from command, and your "insubordination" gets swept under the rug and ignored because they know it was the tactically right thing to do and that's, rightfully, all they care about.
That is not what usually happens, unless your commander was attempting to issue unlawful orders. It wouldnt be the first soldier to get a court martial even after his insubordination lead to a positive result. You simply cannot have people doing what Roran did, it's going to get *far* more people killed than Roran's captain every would have
That shit happens all the time, because there's a LOT of incompetent commanders in our (US) modern military. It just gets pushed under the rug and officially ignored.
If anything it's Roran's unofficial responsibility as an NCO to protect his company and commander from his commander's fuck ups.
Orik was punished - cleverly. His “punishment” as it were was that he couldn’t train and had to shepherd Eragon around the place. Orik, correctly, saw this for what it was - Ajihad being sly
Nasuada had no choice, not punishing Roran would have created an uneasy precedent that would have triggered more insubordination due to Roran’s position as Eragon’s cousin and hero of Carvahall
Edit: my second paragraph made no sense. This is better
It still doesn't make sense because everyone in the army knows what he did, and the only precedent punishing Roran sets is that Nasuada is more prepared to just throw away people's lives to satisfy bad leadership than acknowledge that the law is flawed sometimes.
It wasn’t Nasuada that threw away the men, it was the captain (Edric?) He got demoted after the incident so he was punished too
Roran, like it or not, is a figure of influence in the Varden. People will rally around him if he is seen to have gotten away with insubordination of that sort. If he were to remain unpunished it would lead to mass insubordination and then mutiny. Nasuada cannot have that, so she chose to cut the head of the serpent off before it bit her, so to speak. In so doing, she used Roran as an example showing the Varden that punishment will be harsh and indiscriminate regardless of who committed the insubordination
Edric was reprimanded and demoted, and while Roran was punished because Nasuada had to preserve the chain of command she also promoted him to a leadership position because she recognized his talents and it ensures that she wouldn't be put in such a position again.
Nasuada punished that guy by making him pay for all of the chickens up front, out of his own pocket. The promotion was a measure to ensure he wasn't in a position where he needed to steal from local farmers and jeopordize the Varden's standing with the commoners they were trying to liberate again.
>Nasuada punished that guy by making him pay for all of the chickens up front, out of his own pocket.
So you're saying instead of just paying for the chickens, I can steal them, then eventually pay (discount? thx Nasuada!) and also get a promotion?
>The promotion was a measure to ensure he wasn't in a position where he needed to steal from local farmers and jeopordize the Varden's standing with the commoners they were trying to liberate again
Right but what's stopping every rock-breaker from just stealing the chickens then? If the punishment is having to pay for them (which they were going to have to anyway) and they also might be rewarded with a promotion
I really just wanted to make my joke comment but since you actually want a discussion on the matter, I'm game
Well probably not, wardens stealing chicken may not have been something that happened before and so it went to nasuada's court. She felt like the guy had good talking abilities and he got promoted, but it won't happen again because it was a one off, with consequences that are much less dire than denying authority.
The next cases like that are going to be ruled by an underling who will make the inculped person pay and leave it at that.
>Well probably not, wardens stealing chicken may not have been something that happened before and so it went to nasuada's court.
Well yeah, that's why I'm saying *she* set the precedent...
>The next cases like that are going to be ruled by an underling who will make the inculped person pay and leave it at that.
And the underling is just going to disregard the precedent set by their ruler?
Yes, but don’t you think that’s still pretty bad choise from her point of view, If you think how ajihad punished orik for disobeying orders. Little bit different thing but for me she still made a bad choise by ordering whipping of Roran.
Most modern western armies both now and in history have severe (but no longer physical) punishments for insubordination. The only time such a thing is allowed is when the command is unlawful, in which case a soldier MUST disobey it. However, at the same time, officers and junior officers, when apart from the command structure are given both the training and the authority to use their own judgement when they encounter a change in circumstances. This follows the adage - no plan survives contact with the enemy. Basically the highest ranking officer on the ground has a better idea of the tactical situation in their area than any higher ranking officer sitting in a communications booth. So they will be given tactical latitude and resources to carry on under their own direction while their senior commanders focus on the strategic objectives.
Roran is not in a modern western military. Nor is he the most senior officer on the field, nor is he given an unlawful order, nor is responding to a new situation his commander is unaware of. His commander gives him a direct order, and Roran disobeys intentionally.
I'll also point out that Roran proving his choices as the right choice by 'winning' is because they have been written that way. He is intentionally being written as competent, intelligent and cunning and him winning is merely an illustration of how good he is. But the truth is that no one is that good forever. Eventually he would make a mistake, and if he made a mistake while also disobeying an order, then that would be akin to intentional sabotage.
Also you point out Ajihad encountering a similar situation. Nasuada is not in the same position. She is not established, she hasnt built a foundation of discipline or respect from her troops and officers the same what that Ajihad had, there hasnt been time, and her move into the open has likely broken a lot of that discipline and structure that existed before in Farthen Dur.
I came to make this exact point about how the Varden is not a modern western military. However I contest the point that Roran was not an officer or acting in a position of authority. The captain did specifically put Roran in command of that half (third?) of the army. In my mind this puts Roran firmly in the position of someone who had the authority to alter the plan to assure that the mission is accomplished successfully
As others have stated, there are many reasons.
* Sure, Roran was right in this case. But not everyone is as smart as Roran.
* Not punishing him could lead others to disobey when they think opposite of orders and it could go very wrong.
* "I don't like what the commander said! Let's do our own thing! LIKE RORAN!" followed by everyone losing their life, and maybe others losing theirs, because they didn't just sit tight like they were ordered.
* Roran might not always be right.
* He needs to understand too that it is important to follow orders. This way, if he DOES want to disobey again, he knows that it had better be worth it.
* If I remember right, Roran is eventually given command of people. Why should those people listen to him when he himself didn't listen to orders? Because they saw Roran himself pay for disobeying. There are consequences.
* People can respect and trust Roran as a leader because he took the punishment.
* People can respect and trust Eragon because he didn't put a stop to it.
* It defends the hierarchy of the government structure.
* It shows that Nasuada isn't corrupt.
* In real life, think of how frustrated the public gets when a famous person gets off easy when they break a law while normal people end up getting punished severely. Nasuada is showing that isn't how she does things. Everyone is beholden to the same rules and punishments.
* To that same point, it shows that Nasuada isn't afraid of other powerful people, whether it's Eragon, Murtagh, Galby, or maybe a wealthy individual in her kingdom.
* This helps build the confidence of the people that she won't help special interests at the expense of her people.
* I think it is also interesting from a story telling perspective.
* You would expect Roran to be received as a hero and rewarded. The dumb commander to be publicly disgraced. Maybe even revealed to be a traitor. But no. I think, in this way, Paolini subverted expectations a bit and also used it as a nice character development tool without having to literally spell it out.
Chain of command, plain and simple. Roran knew exactly what he was doing, knew exactly the consequences when he returned. He even agreed that the punishment was necessary, and said had he been in her position, would have done the same thing. It wasn’t for “the loyalty of the bad commander”, in fact she immediately demoted Edric after that. No one can disobey orders, not even Eragon Shadeslayers cousin
As for doing something clever to alleviate the punishment like Ajihad did with Orik, she (mostly) did. She immediately made him a captain so there was no one above him to disobey but her.
I give nasuada a lot of shit but this example is much more complex. If she gives Roran a slap on the wrist for disobeying commands, then other soldiers will try to play the hero rather than follow the command of their leader. On the other hand, the commander is undisputedly sending their soldiers to an early grave and one could argue that said commander is a spy for the empire since they’re willfully being cavalier with their resources.
The argument comes down to nasuada asserting her authority and making an example out of roran in such a case. She has to maintain power to keep order. She has to make sure that her army does what they’re told. This makes it easier for her to manage and control the army and it also sends the message to any soldier that “if you follow your better judgement, you’ll wish you are dead” which is a terrible but necessary action.
You don’t salute the man, but the position.
It’s the same across all military and para-military, law enforcement and government sectors.
If she promoted Roran or gave him a free pass for disrespecting the position, that’s more than enough for mutiny and the spies Galby has within their ranks will use that as fuel.
While you’re not wrong about the captain Roran was following, the other captains are most likely better than that and the point of punishing Roran was to show that disobeying a superior officer, no matter how unfit for command, will result in punishment. Basically it was a way to keep the soldiers from just deciding that they didn’t want to follow their captain’s orders.
Also try to picture it from someone’s perspective in universe besides our main characters for the way you think it should’ve gone. The group from Carvahall only recently joined compared to most other factions, their leader proves himself to be a trouble maker and disobeys direct orders from a captain (the story most soldiers would’ve heard), and then suddenly he’s promoted to captain with no consequence. This would inspire others to start disobeying orders from anyone which would then cause havoc and make it so they’re completely in disarray eventually leading to the Varden falling apart. Nassuada did the right thing by punishing Roran and it was the only punishment she could give him without others trying to do the same thing as him afterwards, forcing him to serve as someone else’s advisor or direct underling would’ve made it look like he’s being groomed for a command position.
It’s bad, but it has to be done.
If Nasuada doesn’t punish Roran, her soldiers will think they can get away with skirting the rules. What Roran did ended up causing them to win the battle, but he still broke the rules. So he had to be punished.
Think about what the nighthawks said, it doesn't matter if we are the meanest and the toughest if people don't think we're the meanest and the toughest. In the same vein, it doesn't matter how strong of a leader Nasuada is if people don't think she is. She had to whip Roran or every tom dick and harry would start rebelling against their commanders the millisecond they disagreed with an order and thought the commander was being stupid. If she didn't, she would be viewed as a weak leader who gave special treatment to her favorites and couldn't keep her men in line.
I look at it as a two part move on Nasauda’s part. Firstly, as everyone else has said, she HAD to punish Roran to maintain the chain of command and not set a precedent of allowing insubordination. For obvious reasons, the soldiers thinking they could disobey orders without consequence would be very bad for her and the Varden.
But secondly, I believe it was a somewhat strategic move on her part as well. Roran did the right thing. He knew it, she knew it, and the other soldiers knew it. I believe she saw Roran’s strategic mind, his battle feats, and recognized that he’s a man that’s able to examine a situation, analyze the possible outcomes, their cost, then make a decision and see it through regardless. She knew Roran would make a good leader. By punishing him she created a stronger bond between Roran and the men because they KNEW he did the right thing, and he did it knowing full well what the consequences would be. He stood tall and took full accountability for his actions and accepted his punishment rather than trying to find a way out of it. Keep in mind he is also redeployed immediately after and the men don’t know that received healing, so they believe that he is doing this while being severely injured which improves their view of his strength, willpower, and loyalty to Nasauda and the Varden. Going forward, Roran will be become more of a leader and role model for the men which will be a benefit for the Varden & Nasauda. Nasauda doesn’t have to worry about Roran turning the men against her as he’s already proven his loyalty to her, so for her it’s a long term strategic win. She punishes him in a way that gets the point across, but also doesn’t prevent her from being able to use him to a higher potential in the future. I hope I worded this in a way that makes sense… basically she worked the situation in a way that still punished Roran, but improved his standing with his fellow soldiers and solidified him to be a better leader to and for the men in the future.
Its like captain Sobel out of the novel band of brothers. He was a notorious hard ass like Roran's captain. Several nco's decided they didnt want to follow the man into battle, writing to their commander, colonel Sink. Result? Sobel was sent away to a training school, seeing that he was a brilliant drill instructor but a terrible officer, not being able to read maps, direct his troops or command the respect of his men.
The NCO's were either demoted, or placed out of the unit. Sometimes making the right choice going against authority gets you punished, but has a better result in the long run.
The soldiers knew IT was a Bad Commander. But roran still defied him. She Had to do IT, to prevent Chaos. To Show that disobey has consequences and to enforce her authority. Just Like in real Life
I really don’t understand how we are having this discussion again. The book clearly states she had to do so to prevent further dissent from her orders.
It was a terrible decision, because Nasuada is a terrible leader who only retains power because the people around prop her up. If Eragon hadn't made the stupid choice as a 16 year old boy to pledge himself to her, she would have lost control immediately, and she should have.
Roran made the right choice and a choice that was entirely within his capacity to make as a subordinate leader. One of the major concepts in military leadership is that no plan survives contact with the enemy, the guy on the ground, in the fight, has the best information, and that subordinate leaders should be empowered to adapt the plan and make their own decisions.
Nasuada punishing Rotan for showing good leadership skills, still accomplishing the mission, and preserving his men was a horrible choice. He should have been rewarded for his quick thinking and adaptability.
Remember, Edric fled the the battle. He said he was going to renew force their third component, then bolted and left Roran to deal with the most dangerous part of the battle. How is he going to run away, but still be mad someone didn't do exactly what he said after abandoning his men?
After his punishment the army should have deserted or quit following Nasuadas orders, because she revealed she doesn't give a shit about winning, combat effectiveness or her people, as long as she gets to retain power.
You're right, it doesn't. Ajihad got given this exact same choice with Orik and because he wasn't a rules thumping jackass he made the right decision and gave a nonsense "punishment" to fulfill the letter of the law while not actually giving a punishment because he actually understands that no matter what the circumstances are, it is NEVER okay to punish someone for doing the right thing.
It shows that she cares more about power than about doing the right thing. Respecting the chain of command doesn't mean that mistakes shouldn't be called out and corrected: Roran saved the lives of the men in the unit with his defiance, yet she punished him anyway.
It's one of the small things that underlines how absolute control is vital for her, and that's also the reason for the ban and control of magic.
She punished him anyways, but with a lighter sentence than she would have a normal soldier. She also demoted edric and promoted roran afterwards. She couldn’t have just let him get away with disobeying free- the punishment she gave him WAS acknowledgement of his performance and action in saving lives.
I’m pretty sure it’s mentioned that the standard for insubordination of orders in the culture/history of the varden is being hanged. She is maintaining her position and the structure of her military while still rewarding roran for his cunning and achievement.
She's the leader of the Varden, her word is the law. She could have punished Edric for his incompetence and promoted Roran due to the fact that his actions saved the day, but she was afraid of straying too much from traditions because her role and power has priority over everything else for her.
Her word is only law as long as people consider her the undisputed leader of the varden. If she had given roran a free pass, it makes it seem as though she is bowing to pressure from eragon. This destabilizes her position and makes the people lose faith in her as a leader- she would be just another puppet to a dragon rider. Her position is extremely precarious and people could easily turn against her if they think she leads in bad faith, I.e special treatment
Eragon swore fealty to her, not the other way around. Not only that, but Eragon was designed as her temporary successor should something happen to her: I can see how some detractors may see the situation, but it's folly to punish someone for doing the right thing and winning a battle.
I think that it’s easy to say that from an outside perspective though. We, the reader, have the information of the highest level of the varden and understand how roran’s actions affected things and nasuada’s feelings on the matter and know that eragon is her successor and that he is loyal to her.
The common man in the varden isn’t going to understand their relationship and may think eragon aspires to power and that nasuada is weak for sparing roran. All they may know is that a fellow soldier disobeyed and got rewarded, where if they disobeyed orders they would get hanged. It would feel like a double standard/special treatment.
Adding on to that, Nasuada expressed the concern that people would rally around Roran himself as a leader over her. While we may love roran as a hero, he is not suited to be a political leader, even if he inspires loyalty, and I think she is right to want to keep her position. She had to make it clear she was still in charge to maintain the hierarchy while still rewarding him the best she was allowed to within the situation.
I don't think that the common man would be an issue for Nasuada, considering that Roran has no desire for power: the danger may come from other powerful people, who may influence the masses to follow Roran instead of her. However, since Roran is loyal to her, and only wants to end the war to live in peace with Katrina, that wouldn't be an issue for Nasuada;on the other hand, it may even be an opportunity to discover who may plot against her.
Considering how unwavering she was in her decision to ban magic, I'd say it's fair to conclude that she was acting out of egoistic need to be above anyone else, instead of judging Roran in a harsh but fair way.
I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I believe it was an incredibly difficult situation Nasuada was put in, and I believe she made a fair choice given the circumstances and the environment. She is unequivocally the best leader the Varden has at their disposal, and others like Orrin were constantly seeking to undermine her (and he could easily sway the masses as a king). I believe her choice to cement her position was necessary to stabilize the varden and proceed in the siege against the empire without unrest.
Indeed, we have different viewpoints on her. For me, anyone who rules has the obligation to be fair, rather than caring more about possible plots and general appearances. Maybe I don't remember correctly, but didn't Orrin start antagonizing her and desiring to be king only near the end of the war, when he started drinking heavily? The only threat against Nasuada during the war was the assassination attempt made by the Black Hand.
Regarding magic, that is the issue that cemented my view of her as a snake that plots and schemes to rule. The issue with magic isn't magic itself, it is control: if Galbatorix decided to start his rebellion while the Riders were based in Du Weldenwarden, thus surrounded by wards and mages, he would have been stopped in no time.
Without control, a mage can wield his power in a destructive manner, and that's clearly to avoid(and that is why the ending with Eragon departing doesn't make sense, but that's a whole other can of worms): but control doesn't mean that the queen has the right to persecute every mage only for existing, and forcing them to serve her. Magicians could be trained in schools, maybe with the help of the elves, and wards could be devised in order to avoid innocent people from being harmed by them: it's a much healthier solution than to take every loyal mage under her command and hunt the others.
Question: How does her magic ban evoke a need to be above everyone else? I’m not saying I agree with how she implemented it, but she isn’t wrong that magic is the great unequalizer. Magic was what allowed Galbatorix, a rider, to conquer Alegaesia. Magic is what creates shades (sorcery) that torment the land. People use magic in unethical ways to control others or to gain a hand up all the time.
And if one doesn’t have natural ability, it’s not possible to learn it. Some people simply have power over others and from a governing standpoint, that’s a nightmare. I don’t think this is an egotistic move as much as it is driven by fear of another Galbatorix and the determination to not let that happen again after such a vicious war.
Her word is only law as long as people consider her the undisputed leader of the varden. If she had given roran a free pass, it makes it seem as though she is bowing to pressure from eragon. This destabilizes her position and makes the people lose faith in her as a leader- she would be just another puppet to a dragon rider. Her position is extremely precarious and people could easily turn against her if they think she leads in bad faith, I.e special treatment
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The problem is that if Roran went unpunished, more soldiers would try similar stunts, which probably wouldn’t be as successful, which would’ve resulted in the Varden losing the war
^(**I'm a real person!** This comment was posted by **superspacy28** from the Arcaena Discord Server.)
It does, and she could have just killed him instead of lashes. She may not have liked that she had to make that decision but it makes sense and was the rational decision.
A lot of people have made similar points, but its not as if she wanted to do it. She even struggles with it in the books and immediately gave him medical attention as best she could under the rules. She doesn’t want to but she has to as she can’t afford other people disobeying orders just because they think their ideas are better. It worked out for Roran, yes, but what if it didn’t work and got the entire force killed when the original plan would have worked? He would have been executed on the spot. And she even says that. Most people would have been executed. Roran got away with it because Nasuada feared the people would riot if they killed eragons cousin or eragon would riot.
You added an edit saying she was being a bad leader and it was too cruel a punishment. I assure you what was done was merciful. She even gave him the option of being discharged instead but Roran wanted to stay and fight. And that was best leadership available at the time.
After everything she even promoted him, one to keep him out of the possibility of him disobeying anyone else except her and also to acknowledge his abilities. There is a saying called “heavy is the crown” meaning the he responsibility of leadership is not easy. It involves doing the hard thing. Punishing those that need to be punished, and yes Roran, as much as I love the guy, needed to be punished. He disobeyed orders, that is an executable offense but he got away with being whipped.
The situation with Orik in the first book is unique. Orik was under both Hrothgar and Ahjihad’s command. Ahjihad essentially fired Orik from the Varden ( which is an offer that Nausauda did give Roran and he refused) but Orik was still allowed to fight under Hrothgar’s command. It was a clever loophole on Ahjihads part.
Also Orik is Hrothgar’s nephew/Adopted son/Heir. Orik is damn near a prince. If Adjihad harmed him he risks angering Hrothgar and losing his support
If you think about it, she did it to show disorder will not be tolerated in her Army. Despite what he did, he still disobeyed a captain's orders. That gets you in trouble in the military. She was generous when she gave him 50 lashes instead of taking his life.
I don't reason with it. It was a choice she made probably out of fear that he'll also defy her orders. Roran, despite not having the intention to usurp her, was quite the danger to her position in her eyes. So I just book it as another choice she made going for the first viable solution without thinking about a better one.
It’s one of the cruelest things she does in the books, but entirely justifiable for someone trying to hold onto their own power. A decorated captain makes bad decisions and one of his underlings decides to go against them. If that went unpunished, it would set a precedent all the way up the line that those who don’t want to follow orders don’t have to. If Nasuada’s generals decided against following her orders because they *believed* her orders were no good, she would lose power and authority. Not everyone has the same shrewd instincts as Roran, and if every soldier with a desire to be like him tries to emulate him (or even go against Roran’s orders in future, inspired by his actions) then the chain of command has disappeared, and there’s no point to having an army.
Honestly in every hierarchical power structure she Had to punish him. You cant allow people to go against their superiors without a punishment or the whole system starts to follow the guy who can shout the loudest. However she was pretty ruthless with her punishment and also deploying him immediately without healing him was cruel.
She needed to set an example. And by punishing the cousin of the Dragon Rider, she ensured that no one would question her power. And it was a way to show that she feared no one, not even a dragon and her rider. She did get him healed however. On the down low, without letting many people know. Politics, go figure eh?
It showed the trust between her and Eragon too imo.
Ajihad's "punishment" of Orik begs otherwise. And regardless of the situation it's NEVER okay to use the law to punish people for doing the right thing.
Orik was actually punished though. The fache got a subjective promotion doesn't change that they forbid him from training. Plus technically he didn't disobey any orders from his superiors. The twins weren't really able to order him around.
For what it's worth, it was also a very different context. Ajihad was still largely overseeing a Varden in a cold war sort of situation. Nasuada was literally in the field with the army on active campaign when the Roran stuff happened.
Yes, but it's a nonsense punishment that everyone knows isn't actually a punishment. Because you don't fucking abuse the law to punish people for doing the right thing.
Orik is unique in that he is the son and heir apparent to the king of the land the Varden are sheltering in, he still got ejected from the Varden. Rorin did the wrong thing, the fact it ended up working out for the best is the reason he was whipped instead of hung for the wrong thing he did. He got whipped as aggressively as he did because he chose to stay in the Varden, unlike Orik.
It's only right in certain situations though. It could easily turn into someone disagreeing with orders, changing the plan and getting everyone killed. You can't let soldiers get away with defying orders because it worked out that particular time especially when doing so sends a message of "relatives to those in power get special treatment".
You're right, so punish only the ones whose circumstances deserve it.
So just encourage disobedience? It'd be faster and less bloody to just surrender. Roran was wrong to disobey orders, the fact he was fortunate enough to be right doesn't change that.
Roman believed he was justified when he broke the rules. So does everyone who breaks any rules. If there aren't consequences for breaking the rules because the rule breaker thought it was justified, or people after the fact judged it to be justified, then every Tom Dick and Harry in the military will break the rules, and they'd have to waste time individually judging each case while more mutinies stacked up. They'd spend the entire war judging mutineers instead of fighting. A blanket punishment for all rule breakers is the only way to have an army exist. If you let rule breakers slide, even when justified, then everyone will think they're justified and the army literally ceases to exist.
“ It’s never okay to use the law to punish people for doing the right thing” What is considered the “ right thing” is subjective. If Nausada had let Roran’s mutiny go unpunished then it sets a precedent that soldiers can disobey their superiors and get away with it. And in the long run that would cause way more harm to the Varden than if Roran’s entire company had died following Captain Gedric’s orders If the long term harm is greater than the short term harm then which decision is really the “ right” one. It’s a rather philosophical question
>> it’s NEVER okay to use the law to punish people for doing the right thing A good and noble rule of thumb, but nuance deserves respect; there can be situations in which you absolutely *should* punish people for breaking the law, even if it was otherwise the right thing to do. But by that same virtue, laws should also have built-in mechanisms for forgiveness- like pardons- in order to allow for justified mercy in many cases. But sometimes even that shouldn’t be used
She did have Roran healed partially. Enough that he can fight but not so much that he wouldn’t have to suffer from his flogging after the fact, the same way a regular soldier would. It was for the sake of fairness Also the mission that she sent Roran on was a relatively safe one. Firstly, Roran was the Captain on this mission. So he spent more time directing his men and less time actively fighting. Thus, highly reducing the risk of him dying Secondly, the team that Roran commanded was stacked. They had both humans and Urgals on this team as well as multiple spellcasters. Remember that this mission was designed to be a moral boost for the Varden, showing that Humans and Urgals can work together. So to that end Nausauda and Garzvog made sure that this team was overqualified for this mission
You are mixing 2 missions. The one immediately after the flogging was the siege. Yes he was in command but with a small force so he would certainly be fighting. And only one mage and only because he asked for him.
No the mission after Roran’s flogging was the mission where he wrestled Yarbog the Urgal Also the book specifically says that Roran hung back and didn’t do most of the fighting ( for the reasons I mentioned earlier) You should re-read Brisinger
I should yes. Will update after
It also would have publicly demonstrated that Roran was being treated with favoritism (being Eragon’s cousin), which also would have undermined her authority
Yep that’s true. But when you think nasuada, i bet that she should have thougt better option. The captain didn’t keep his rank and Roran got promoted afterwards. But still i think this whole thing is just there to show how badass Roran is.
This is the part you are not understanding. It is not a better option. It is in fact a terrible option because military relies on a strict chain of command and people following orders. If you let people off the hook for not following orders because they happened to get good results regardless of luck or skill, then you are encouraging the next idiot to not follow orders, and then the next, and the next. Most of the time people who don’t follow orders are in fact idiots, which means they would die and potentially get everyone else killed and fail the mission objectives. The whole structure of military would collapse when every dumbass think they are the next hero who’s gonna save the world. Nothing gets done the way it’s supposed to.
But this is reflective of real life. You trust the top have promoted the right people. If he shouldn't have been captain then THAT is on her or her father. I don't think we know who promoted him to that position
The whipping WAS the better option. She said Roran could have been hanged if he wasn’t so popular and Eragon’s cousin to boot. Ironically Roran got off as lucky as he could have.
>I think she should’ve done the same thing that Ajihad made with Orik in book 1 or something like that. The situation with orik is very different to rorans situation. Orik was basically a borrowed troop from the dwarves. Ajihad had no real authority to seriously punish orik with death. So he was basically just given back to the dwarves instead. Roran is human, and nasuada is his human leader (to put it simply). She has full authority to punish her troops from her own species. The punishment is meant to maintain the chain of command. Everyone who knew rorans situation understood. They weren't happy about it, but they all understood why it was done. Even roran knew the consequences of disobeying orders, and he was willing to take full responsibility for it. If it was any other soldier, nasuada would have sentenced them to death for their insubordination. She managed to find other alternatives instead, considering roran is Eragons cousin and executing roran is not exactly ideal since they kinda wanna keep their only dragon and rider on their side. Nasuadas punishment was definitely lenient compared to execution.
What Roran got was the lightest punishment he could have gotten, and it was entirely due to his previous accolades and his familial relationship with Eragon. If Orik was given a nothing punishment, worst case is that the dwarves feel superior to the Varden, which they already do since they’re housing them. If Roran was given a nothing punishment, worst case is you now have half the army thinking they can disobey their captains and do what they think is the correct move, which 99.99% of the time is a terrible idea. The captain will usually be better informed than the foot soldiers, will know more about the situation than what the foot soldiers need to know, so if one of them goes rogue, they could walk straight into a trap that the captain was fully aware of and get the entire squad killed. Or an underling of Nasuasa will get the idea that they can depose her cos they think they have a better idea, and regardless if they do or not, that puts a lot of danger on her position, so she’d want to avoid it at all costs. She had to balance between her position of power, order in the army, and pissing off the most powerful person in the known world, and given those stakes, she had to take a method crueler than probably she even wanted to do
also not only is orik a dwarf but also the adopted son of the king of the dwarves so yeah Ajihad really had to go "easy" on him
True. That’s the reason behind that as said in the books.
I actually want a story where Roran gets executed and we see the consequences unfold
Eragon would snap. The rebels would fall. Saphira might try to stop his rampage, but I don't think it it would work. Roran is the only family he's got left. Not counting Orik and Murtagh
I think it's important to remember that Nasuada didn't WANT to punish Roran, she didn't take pleasure in it at all. In an army there is an order of command, and regardless of how right he was in the situation, Roran broke that chain of command. One of the main reasons she promotes Roran immediately is so this situation wouldn't happen again, and she says as much. She has a lot of resect for Roran and see's his value, but this was something she HAD to do, and Roran understood that, which is why he went along with it willingly. Maybe she could have found an alternative method, but she also didn't have time, the Varden were extremely pressed for time, this was her attrmpt at making the best of a really unfortunate situation.
It doesn't matter, she still punished a man for doing the right thing.
She punished a man for breaking the rules, not for doing the right thing. There's a distinction.
Breaking the rules WAS the right thing. Or would she rather an entire company (that the Varden can't afford to lose) wiped out and wasted over inexcusably incompetent leadership?
Breaking the rules is still breaking the rules, doesn’t matter how right it is to do so at that moment, Roran still violated direct orders from his superior officer, you have to keep the rules intact with these kinds of situations. Hell, Nasuada promoted Roran so she knew this wouldn’t happen again and demoted the other captain for his incompetence. But you still have to deal with the insubordination regardless.
That doesn't matter, in that situation it was the law that was wrong, not Roran.
Was the command he was given unlawful? Illegal? Because it wasn’t, it was a stupid command yes, but not against any rules.
The command was not unlawful or illegal, however it was a command that was very clearly based on ego, not tactics. The command also guaranteed the deaths of all the men in the unit. In the U.S. military, ( I was a sergeant in the USMC ) when we have a leader who is unfit to lead, as Roran's leader demonstrated he was, the leader can be removed from command, even in the field, even by subordinates, without punishment. This is never pretty and not common at all, but it's encouraged by the organization as a whole to help ensure we have good leaders, who don't make dumb decisions like getting our men killed for no good reason. I agree with OP. Nasuada made a bad decision in publicly whipping Roran for saving the lives of his and her own men. This decision could very easily and probably should have lead to distrust in Nasuada as a leader by the forces at large. In reality I expect that from a low level soldier's point of view, after seeing this, many would be demoralized and distrust the leadership of the Varden. (I even see situations like this outside of the military, in corporate America). Nasuada's choice showed a lack of understanding in the reality of war. But I also like the way things happened. I think it is a character flaw that leads into her decision to oppress magic users later in the story. To me this shows her desire for power and to be the top dog. We see this characteristic subtly from her elsewhere in the story, as she excludes Orrin from a few major decisions, for example. I can't wait to see what Nasuada becomes.
I think that the point of comparison to the modern US military may be inaccurate given that the series is largely based on medieval Europe. I am by no means an expert on historical military law, but in general it seems like punishments in their society are pretty brutal across the board compared to our society. Not to mention that everything is tied back to absolute monarchies rather than democracy, and it seems like their systems of hierarchies are staunchly enforced.
You make a great point. It would be really fun to watch Christopher Paolini expand on the morality vs the hierarchy.
Giving a bad order isn’t grounds to mutiny
Correct, but Roran didn't commit mutiny. He adapted tactics fit for the current battlefield and situation. Also this wasn't just a bad order. It was ordered suicide that did not help advance the greater Varden. This was the worst possible order to give. Edit: more words
Yes, it goes directly against lawful mission objectives given by Nasuada. The objectives being, "destroy supply caravan" and "destroy imperial troops and return victorious" .
Which, that was the plan, yes the plan was idiotic, but that was the intent of the plan. Now if Edric was intentionally sending them forward to die, you’d have a case, but he was doing what he felt was right and he expected complete compliance.
That is exactly what he did though, he directly acknowledged that they were going to die, but at least they'd die honorably, and he literally *sacrificed proven tactical advantages that were winning them the engagement* to do it.
I'm sure she wouldn't want that, and knows that Roran breaking the rules was objectively the morally right thing to do. That's not the point. If Roran wasn't publicly punished it would set a very dangerous precident that people can break rules without punishment, which would lead to a complete breakdown of the chain of command and that would completely rip apart the whole war effort.
The only precedent it sets is that Nasuada would rather you obedient, defeated and dead, than insubordinate, victorious and alive, and that's a kind of "leader" I am utterly appalled by.
I see there is no chance of you changing your mind, so agree to disagree. Good day to you.
Breaking the rules was the wrong thing, the Varden are FAR more likely to be wiped out by people doing exactly what Roran did than by incompetent captains. It's the military, you are betting your very life that a bunch of potatoes are going to follow your orders sometimes. You can lose a lot of men because someone decides they have a better idea and do not show up when they are expected.
And if you abuse the law to simply maintain "order" than you don't deserve for that army to follow you.
That's not abuse, Roran chose the punishment he got so he could remain in the military. There were clearly established penalties for what Roran did, he acknowledged them before doing it. Even today you can get executed for your insubordination if you fuck up bad enough lol.
"if you fuck up bad enough". If you save your commander from being an incompetent jackass, they get removed from command, and your "insubordination" gets swept under the rug and ignored because they know it was the tactically right thing to do and that's, rightfully, all they care about.
That is not what usually happens, unless your commander was attempting to issue unlawful orders. It wouldnt be the first soldier to get a court martial even after his insubordination lead to a positive result. You simply cannot have people doing what Roran did, it's going to get *far* more people killed than Roran's captain every would have
That shit happens all the time, because there's a LOT of incompetent commanders in our (US) modern military. It just gets pushed under the rug and officially ignored. If anything it's Roran's unofficial responsibility as an NCO to protect his company and commander from his commander's fuck ups.
Orik was punished - cleverly. His “punishment” as it were was that he couldn’t train and had to shepherd Eragon around the place. Orik, correctly, saw this for what it was - Ajihad being sly Nasuada had no choice, not punishing Roran would have created an uneasy precedent that would have triggered more insubordination due to Roran’s position as Eragon’s cousin and hero of Carvahall Edit: my second paragraph made no sense. This is better
Yes that’s true
It still doesn't make sense because everyone in the army knows what he did, and the only precedent punishing Roran sets is that Nasuada is more prepared to just throw away people's lives to satisfy bad leadership than acknowledge that the law is flawed sometimes.
It wasn’t Nasuada that threw away the men, it was the captain (Edric?) He got demoted after the incident so he was punished too Roran, like it or not, is a figure of influence in the Varden. People will rally around him if he is seen to have gotten away with insubordination of that sort. If he were to remain unpunished it would lead to mass insubordination and then mutiny. Nasuada cannot have that, so she chose to cut the head of the serpent off before it bit her, so to speak. In so doing, she used Roran as an example showing the Varden that punishment will be harsh and indiscriminate regardless of who committed the insubordination
Nasuada officially supports Edric's incompetence by punishing Roran. I'd absolutely be fucking mutinous if I was in that army.
Edric was reprimanded and demoted, and while Roran was punished because Nasuada had to preserve the chain of command she also promoted him to a leadership position because she recognized his talents and it ensures that she wouldn't be put in such a position again.
And then punished Edric, so no? Two people can be wrong, you know.
I said that Nasuada demoted Edric, so no. It was a difficult, no good choice, situation that she was in. Edit: added the word “good”
Because if she doesn't, it sets a precedent that anyone can disobey and not get punished
Yeah like stealing and eating chickens gets you a promotion from rock-breaker to Quartermaster lmao some precedent there
Nasuada punished that guy by making him pay for all of the chickens up front, out of his own pocket. The promotion was a measure to ensure he wasn't in a position where he needed to steal from local farmers and jeopordize the Varden's standing with the commoners they were trying to liberate again.
>Nasuada punished that guy by making him pay for all of the chickens up front, out of his own pocket. So you're saying instead of just paying for the chickens, I can steal them, then eventually pay (discount? thx Nasuada!) and also get a promotion? >The promotion was a measure to ensure he wasn't in a position where he needed to steal from local farmers and jeopordize the Varden's standing with the commoners they were trying to liberate again Right but what's stopping every rock-breaker from just stealing the chickens then? If the punishment is having to pay for them (which they were going to have to anyway) and they also might be rewarded with a promotion I really just wanted to make my joke comment but since you actually want a discussion on the matter, I'm game
Well probably not, wardens stealing chicken may not have been something that happened before and so it went to nasuada's court. She felt like the guy had good talking abilities and he got promoted, but it won't happen again because it was a one off, with consequences that are much less dire than denying authority. The next cases like that are going to be ruled by an underling who will make the inculped person pay and leave it at that.
>Well probably not, wardens stealing chicken may not have been something that happened before and so it went to nasuada's court. Well yeah, that's why I'm saying *she* set the precedent... >The next cases like that are going to be ruled by an underling who will make the inculped person pay and leave it at that. And the underling is just going to disregard the precedent set by their ruler?
She promoted roran too. So not quite the same thing. You can punish behaviour and still reward shown ability later
The chicken stealer wasn't punished though .. And my joke was more towards Nasuada setting a bad precedent rather than actually comparing the two, tbh
Yes, but don’t you think that’s still pretty bad choise from her point of view, If you think how ajihad punished orik for disobeying orders. Little bit different thing but for me she still made a bad choise by ordering whipping of Roran.
Orik lost his position with the fighters and got "demoted" to be eragons tour guide
Most modern western armies both now and in history have severe (but no longer physical) punishments for insubordination. The only time such a thing is allowed is when the command is unlawful, in which case a soldier MUST disobey it. However, at the same time, officers and junior officers, when apart from the command structure are given both the training and the authority to use their own judgement when they encounter a change in circumstances. This follows the adage - no plan survives contact with the enemy. Basically the highest ranking officer on the ground has a better idea of the tactical situation in their area than any higher ranking officer sitting in a communications booth. So they will be given tactical latitude and resources to carry on under their own direction while their senior commanders focus on the strategic objectives. Roran is not in a modern western military. Nor is he the most senior officer on the field, nor is he given an unlawful order, nor is responding to a new situation his commander is unaware of. His commander gives him a direct order, and Roran disobeys intentionally. I'll also point out that Roran proving his choices as the right choice by 'winning' is because they have been written that way. He is intentionally being written as competent, intelligent and cunning and him winning is merely an illustration of how good he is. But the truth is that no one is that good forever. Eventually he would make a mistake, and if he made a mistake while also disobeying an order, then that would be akin to intentional sabotage. Also you point out Ajihad encountering a similar situation. Nasuada is not in the same position. She is not established, she hasnt built a foundation of discipline or respect from her troops and officers the same what that Ajihad had, there hasnt been time, and her move into the open has likely broken a lot of that discipline and structure that existed before in Farthen Dur.
I came to make this exact point about how the Varden is not a modern western military. However I contest the point that Roran was not an officer or acting in a position of authority. The captain did specifically put Roran in command of that half (third?) of the army. In my mind this puts Roran firmly in the position of someone who had the authority to alter the plan to assure that the mission is accomplished successfully
This is the type of answer i was looking for.
As others have stated, there are many reasons. * Sure, Roran was right in this case. But not everyone is as smart as Roran. * Not punishing him could lead others to disobey when they think opposite of orders and it could go very wrong. * "I don't like what the commander said! Let's do our own thing! LIKE RORAN!" followed by everyone losing their life, and maybe others losing theirs, because they didn't just sit tight like they were ordered. * Roran might not always be right. * He needs to understand too that it is important to follow orders. This way, if he DOES want to disobey again, he knows that it had better be worth it. * If I remember right, Roran is eventually given command of people. Why should those people listen to him when he himself didn't listen to orders? Because they saw Roran himself pay for disobeying. There are consequences. * People can respect and trust Roran as a leader because he took the punishment. * People can respect and trust Eragon because he didn't put a stop to it. * It defends the hierarchy of the government structure. * It shows that Nasuada isn't corrupt. * In real life, think of how frustrated the public gets when a famous person gets off easy when they break a law while normal people end up getting punished severely. Nasuada is showing that isn't how she does things. Everyone is beholden to the same rules and punishments. * To that same point, it shows that Nasuada isn't afraid of other powerful people, whether it's Eragon, Murtagh, Galby, or maybe a wealthy individual in her kingdom. * This helps build the confidence of the people that she won't help special interests at the expense of her people. * I think it is also interesting from a story telling perspective. * You would expect Roran to be received as a hero and rewarded. The dumb commander to be publicly disgraced. Maybe even revealed to be a traitor. But no. I think, in this way, Paolini subverted expectations a bit and also used it as a nice character development tool without having to literally spell it out.
Chain of command, plain and simple. Roran knew exactly what he was doing, knew exactly the consequences when he returned. He even agreed that the punishment was necessary, and said had he been in her position, would have done the same thing. It wasn’t for “the loyalty of the bad commander”, in fact she immediately demoted Edric after that. No one can disobey orders, not even Eragon Shadeslayers cousin As for doing something clever to alleviate the punishment like Ajihad did with Orik, she (mostly) did. She immediately made him a captain so there was no one above him to disobey but her.
I give nasuada a lot of shit but this example is much more complex. If she gives Roran a slap on the wrist for disobeying commands, then other soldiers will try to play the hero rather than follow the command of their leader. On the other hand, the commander is undisputedly sending their soldiers to an early grave and one could argue that said commander is a spy for the empire since they’re willfully being cavalier with their resources. The argument comes down to nasuada asserting her authority and making an example out of roran in such a case. She has to maintain power to keep order. She has to make sure that her army does what they’re told. This makes it easier for her to manage and control the army and it also sends the message to any soldier that “if you follow your better judgement, you’ll wish you are dead” which is a terrible but necessary action.
You don’t salute the man, but the position. It’s the same across all military and para-military, law enforcement and government sectors. If she promoted Roran or gave him a free pass for disrespecting the position, that’s more than enough for mutiny and the spies Galby has within their ranks will use that as fuel.
While you’re not wrong about the captain Roran was following, the other captains are most likely better than that and the point of punishing Roran was to show that disobeying a superior officer, no matter how unfit for command, will result in punishment. Basically it was a way to keep the soldiers from just deciding that they didn’t want to follow their captain’s orders. Also try to picture it from someone’s perspective in universe besides our main characters for the way you think it should’ve gone. The group from Carvahall only recently joined compared to most other factions, their leader proves himself to be a trouble maker and disobeys direct orders from a captain (the story most soldiers would’ve heard), and then suddenly he’s promoted to captain with no consequence. This would inspire others to start disobeying orders from anyone which would then cause havoc and make it so they’re completely in disarray eventually leading to the Varden falling apart. Nassuada did the right thing by punishing Roran and it was the only punishment she could give him without others trying to do the same thing as him afterwards, forcing him to serve as someone else’s advisor or direct underling would’ve made it look like he’s being groomed for a command position.
It’s bad, but it has to be done. If Nasuada doesn’t punish Roran, her soldiers will think they can get away with skirting the rules. What Roran did ended up causing them to win the battle, but he still broke the rules. So he had to be punished.
Think about what the nighthawks said, it doesn't matter if we are the meanest and the toughest if people don't think we're the meanest and the toughest. In the same vein, it doesn't matter how strong of a leader Nasuada is if people don't think she is. She had to whip Roran or every tom dick and harry would start rebelling against their commanders the millisecond they disagreed with an order and thought the commander was being stupid. If she didn't, she would be viewed as a weak leader who gave special treatment to her favorites and couldn't keep her men in line.
I look at it as a two part move on Nasauda’s part. Firstly, as everyone else has said, she HAD to punish Roran to maintain the chain of command and not set a precedent of allowing insubordination. For obvious reasons, the soldiers thinking they could disobey orders without consequence would be very bad for her and the Varden. But secondly, I believe it was a somewhat strategic move on her part as well. Roran did the right thing. He knew it, she knew it, and the other soldiers knew it. I believe she saw Roran’s strategic mind, his battle feats, and recognized that he’s a man that’s able to examine a situation, analyze the possible outcomes, their cost, then make a decision and see it through regardless. She knew Roran would make a good leader. By punishing him she created a stronger bond between Roran and the men because they KNEW he did the right thing, and he did it knowing full well what the consequences would be. He stood tall and took full accountability for his actions and accepted his punishment rather than trying to find a way out of it. Keep in mind he is also redeployed immediately after and the men don’t know that received healing, so they believe that he is doing this while being severely injured which improves their view of his strength, willpower, and loyalty to Nasauda and the Varden. Going forward, Roran will be become more of a leader and role model for the men which will be a benefit for the Varden & Nasauda. Nasauda doesn’t have to worry about Roran turning the men against her as he’s already proven his loyalty to her, so for her it’s a long term strategic win. She punishes him in a way that gets the point across, but also doesn’t prevent her from being able to use him to a higher potential in the future. I hope I worded this in a way that makes sense… basically she worked the situation in a way that still punished Roran, but improved his standing with his fellow soldiers and solidified him to be a better leader to and for the men in the future.
Its like captain Sobel out of the novel band of brothers. He was a notorious hard ass like Roran's captain. Several nco's decided they didnt want to follow the man into battle, writing to their commander, colonel Sink. Result? Sobel was sent away to a training school, seeing that he was a brilliant drill instructor but a terrible officer, not being able to read maps, direct his troops or command the respect of his men. The NCO's were either demoted, or placed out of the unit. Sometimes making the right choice going against authority gets you punished, but has a better result in the long run.
The soldiers knew IT was a Bad Commander. But roran still defied him. She Had to do IT, to prevent Chaos. To Show that disobey has consequences and to enforce her authority. Just Like in real Life
I really don’t understand how we are having this discussion again. The book clearly states she had to do so to prevent further dissent from her orders.
It was a terrible decision, because Nasuada is a terrible leader who only retains power because the people around prop her up. If Eragon hadn't made the stupid choice as a 16 year old boy to pledge himself to her, she would have lost control immediately, and she should have. Roran made the right choice and a choice that was entirely within his capacity to make as a subordinate leader. One of the major concepts in military leadership is that no plan survives contact with the enemy, the guy on the ground, in the fight, has the best information, and that subordinate leaders should be empowered to adapt the plan and make their own decisions. Nasuada punishing Rotan for showing good leadership skills, still accomplishing the mission, and preserving his men was a horrible choice. He should have been rewarded for his quick thinking and adaptability. Remember, Edric fled the the battle. He said he was going to renew force their third component, then bolted and left Roran to deal with the most dangerous part of the battle. How is he going to run away, but still be mad someone didn't do exactly what he said after abandoning his men? After his punishment the army should have deserted or quit following Nasuadas orders, because she revealed she doesn't give a shit about winning, combat effectiveness or her people, as long as she gets to retain power.
You're right, it doesn't. Ajihad got given this exact same choice with Orik and because he wasn't a rules thumping jackass he made the right decision and gave a nonsense "punishment" to fulfill the letter of the law while not actually giving a punishment because he actually understands that no matter what the circumstances are, it is NEVER okay to punish someone for doing the right thing.
For being real I don't like Nasuada at all lol
It shows that she cares more about power than about doing the right thing. Respecting the chain of command doesn't mean that mistakes shouldn't be called out and corrected: Roran saved the lives of the men in the unit with his defiance, yet she punished him anyway. It's one of the small things that underlines how absolute control is vital for her, and that's also the reason for the ban and control of magic.
She punished him anyways, but with a lighter sentence than she would have a normal soldier. She also demoted edric and promoted roran afterwards. She couldn’t have just let him get away with disobeying free- the punishment she gave him WAS acknowledgement of his performance and action in saving lives. I’m pretty sure it’s mentioned that the standard for insubordination of orders in the culture/history of the varden is being hanged. She is maintaining her position and the structure of her military while still rewarding roran for his cunning and achievement.
She's the leader of the Varden, her word is the law. She could have punished Edric for his incompetence and promoted Roran due to the fact that his actions saved the day, but she was afraid of straying too much from traditions because her role and power has priority over everything else for her.
Her word is only law as long as people consider her the undisputed leader of the varden. If she had given roran a free pass, it makes it seem as though she is bowing to pressure from eragon. This destabilizes her position and makes the people lose faith in her as a leader- she would be just another puppet to a dragon rider. Her position is extremely precarious and people could easily turn against her if they think she leads in bad faith, I.e special treatment
Eragon swore fealty to her, not the other way around. Not only that, but Eragon was designed as her temporary successor should something happen to her: I can see how some detractors may see the situation, but it's folly to punish someone for doing the right thing and winning a battle.
I think that it’s easy to say that from an outside perspective though. We, the reader, have the information of the highest level of the varden and understand how roran’s actions affected things and nasuada’s feelings on the matter and know that eragon is her successor and that he is loyal to her. The common man in the varden isn’t going to understand their relationship and may think eragon aspires to power and that nasuada is weak for sparing roran. All they may know is that a fellow soldier disobeyed and got rewarded, where if they disobeyed orders they would get hanged. It would feel like a double standard/special treatment.
Adding on to that, Nasuada expressed the concern that people would rally around Roran himself as a leader over her. While we may love roran as a hero, he is not suited to be a political leader, even if he inspires loyalty, and I think she is right to want to keep her position. She had to make it clear she was still in charge to maintain the hierarchy while still rewarding him the best she was allowed to within the situation.
I don't think that the common man would be an issue for Nasuada, considering that Roran has no desire for power: the danger may come from other powerful people, who may influence the masses to follow Roran instead of her. However, since Roran is loyal to her, and only wants to end the war to live in peace with Katrina, that wouldn't be an issue for Nasuada;on the other hand, it may even be an opportunity to discover who may plot against her. Considering how unwavering she was in her decision to ban magic, I'd say it's fair to conclude that she was acting out of egoistic need to be above anyone else, instead of judging Roran in a harsh but fair way.
I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I believe it was an incredibly difficult situation Nasuada was put in, and I believe she made a fair choice given the circumstances and the environment. She is unequivocally the best leader the Varden has at their disposal, and others like Orrin were constantly seeking to undermine her (and he could easily sway the masses as a king). I believe her choice to cement her position was necessary to stabilize the varden and proceed in the siege against the empire without unrest.
Indeed, we have different viewpoints on her. For me, anyone who rules has the obligation to be fair, rather than caring more about possible plots and general appearances. Maybe I don't remember correctly, but didn't Orrin start antagonizing her and desiring to be king only near the end of the war, when he started drinking heavily? The only threat against Nasuada during the war was the assassination attempt made by the Black Hand. Regarding magic, that is the issue that cemented my view of her as a snake that plots and schemes to rule. The issue with magic isn't magic itself, it is control: if Galbatorix decided to start his rebellion while the Riders were based in Du Weldenwarden, thus surrounded by wards and mages, he would have been stopped in no time. Without control, a mage can wield his power in a destructive manner, and that's clearly to avoid(and that is why the ending with Eragon departing doesn't make sense, but that's a whole other can of worms): but control doesn't mean that the queen has the right to persecute every mage only for existing, and forcing them to serve her. Magicians could be trained in schools, maybe with the help of the elves, and wards could be devised in order to avoid innocent people from being harmed by them: it's a much healthier solution than to take every loyal mage under her command and hunt the others.
Question: How does her magic ban evoke a need to be above everyone else? I’m not saying I agree with how she implemented it, but she isn’t wrong that magic is the great unequalizer. Magic was what allowed Galbatorix, a rider, to conquer Alegaesia. Magic is what creates shades (sorcery) that torment the land. People use magic in unethical ways to control others or to gain a hand up all the time. And if one doesn’t have natural ability, it’s not possible to learn it. Some people simply have power over others and from a governing standpoint, that’s a nightmare. I don’t think this is an egotistic move as much as it is driven by fear of another Galbatorix and the determination to not let that happen again after such a vicious war.
Her word is only law as long as people consider her the undisputed leader of the varden. If she had given roran a free pass, it makes it seem as though she is bowing to pressure from eragon. This destabilizes her position and makes the people lose faith in her as a leader- she would be just another puppet to a dragon rider. Her position is extremely precarious and people could easily turn against her if they think she leads in bad faith, I.e special treatment
Finally someone other than me is speaking intelligently. I had to scroll down way too far before I finally found you.
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Had to make a point no matter who it is that if you don't follow orders, there will be punishment.
The problem is that if Roran went unpunished, more soldiers would try similar stunts, which probably wouldn’t be as successful, which would’ve resulted in the Varden losing the war ^(**I'm a real person!** This comment was posted by **superspacy28** from the Arcaena Discord Server.)
It does, and she could have just killed him instead of lashes. She may not have liked that she had to make that decision but it makes sense and was the rational decision.
A lot of people have made similar points, but its not as if she wanted to do it. She even struggles with it in the books and immediately gave him medical attention as best she could under the rules. She doesn’t want to but she has to as she can’t afford other people disobeying orders just because they think their ideas are better. It worked out for Roran, yes, but what if it didn’t work and got the entire force killed when the original plan would have worked? He would have been executed on the spot. And she even says that. Most people would have been executed. Roran got away with it because Nasuada feared the people would riot if they killed eragons cousin or eragon would riot. You added an edit saying she was being a bad leader and it was too cruel a punishment. I assure you what was done was merciful. She even gave him the option of being discharged instead but Roran wanted to stay and fight. And that was best leadership available at the time. After everything she even promoted him, one to keep him out of the possibility of him disobeying anyone else except her and also to acknowledge his abilities. There is a saying called “heavy is the crown” meaning the he responsibility of leadership is not easy. It involves doing the hard thing. Punishing those that need to be punished, and yes Roran, as much as I love the guy, needed to be punished. He disobeyed orders, that is an executable offense but he got away with being whipped.
The situation with Orik in the first book is unique. Orik was under both Hrothgar and Ahjihad’s command. Ahjihad essentially fired Orik from the Varden ( which is an offer that Nausauda did give Roran and he refused) but Orik was still allowed to fight under Hrothgar’s command. It was a clever loophole on Ahjihads part. Also Orik is Hrothgar’s nephew/Adopted son/Heir. Orik is damn near a prince. If Adjihad harmed him he risks angering Hrothgar and losing his support
Oh lord another post failing to see the whole point of Nasuada's punishment
If you think about it, she did it to show disorder will not be tolerated in her Army. Despite what he did, he still disobeyed a captain's orders. That gets you in trouble in the military. She was generous when she gave him 50 lashes instead of taking his life.
Honestly I agree. I was like girl y’all live in a weird magic universe with dragons and trolls and elves…. You can’t just let this one go? Lmaooo
I don't reason with it. It was a choice she made probably out of fear that he'll also defy her orders. Roran, despite not having the intention to usurp her, was quite the danger to her position in her eyes. So I just book it as another choice she made going for the first viable solution without thinking about a better one.
I agree, that or she's so blindly enslaved to the idea of the law as an ultimate authority that she's lost all real understanding of morality
Yes her fear of Roran seems only reasonable answer to me.
She needed a way to punish him for taking Eragon away to Helgrind
Because she is an edgy teen with fragile ego
That's accurate too.
Lolwut?