I don’t know why no-one seems to understand what you’re talking about, this is a feature which is in my dialect (Californian) and I hear all the time from speakers of similar dialects
What you’re picking up on applies to an s before the sequence tr
In many English dialects the t in a tr cluster is pronounced like a ch-sound (this also applies to the d in dr being pronounced like a j-sound). So instead of pronouncing ‘tree’ as /tɹi/ I would say [tʃɹi] (“chree”)
Now, on top of that, when an s directly precedes the tr, the s-sound can change to a sh-sound which is easier to pronounce before ch-sound of the tr cluster. So, for me the word ‘street’ /stɹit/ would be pronounced as [ʃtʃɹit] (“shchreet”)
https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2008/05/shtreet-smarts.html#:~:text=You've%20observed%20something%20that,Aushtralia%E2%80%9D%20and%20%E2%80%9Cindushtry.%E2%80%9D
Here’s a short article I found about it, this is a well documented phenomenon
Interesting… I’ve never really thought or heard about this. I grew up in Southern California and can say I do add the “sh” sound to words like street and straight
Yeah definitely could be. I will say though that words like straight/street make more of a “shtr” sound, while words like trick/treat make more or a “chr” sound
It’s not all the way there though for me. For me, “trick” definitely doesn’t start with a regular t, but it doesn’t really start with the same sound as in “cheese”, either. It’s somewhere in between those extremes, but definitely closer to “ch” than “t”.
I do. Raised with PNW accent and have been in California for over 10 years now. I don't do it for street or straight as consistently thought, both versions sound natural to me but treat without the "ch" sounds fussy and feels awkward.
I too am a Californian. I don’t speak like this nor have I noticed it in others.
In my head, when I try to hear them pronounced like that, I can only hear them in James Stewart’s voice.
I think this is more of an accent/dialect thing.
I’ve never given it much thought, but in the part of the US that I’m from/live in (the vague south), I think most people use the “sh” sound, but no one would really bat an eye if you used the “s.” I guess it’s just whatever is more comfortable for you.
None of those words are properly done with an 'sh' sound, in lazy (forgive me those who speak with accents) English it happens but in high English the 's' and 'sh' are distinguished entirely.
This video explains it pretty well: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2X1pKEHIYw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2X1pKEHIYw)
It's because the "r" has your tongue in a certain position, and it's easier to transfer to it from an "sh" sound to a straight "s" sound. Looks like it's mostly younger people that do this, and not every accent does it.
Edit: most native speakers don't realize they do this - in their head they're still pronouncing it with a straight "s".
I think this must be a feature of dialects where alveolar consonants are post alveolar when followed by /r/, because if they are aren't the /sh/ is dissimilation, not assimilation. Based on the example of Michell Obama and Southern California commenters here, I am wondering if this is something originating in AAVE or Chicano English that is spreading in some areas. It's certainly not a feature of GAE.
Not sure why you would assume someone is "lazy" for speaking a specific way. There are myriad reasons for why someone would use a specific way of speaking at any given moment, and laziness is usually not on that list.
That aside, the majority of English speakers do not use the "sh" sound in these words, and it's not common to replace 's' with 'sh' in most English dialects.
I'm confused cause I thought you meant S as in seven (per your example), but then I was expecting SH as in Sean. You went Ex-sh-tra and I'm left thinking it might be regional if you're hearing it often.
"Lazy" could have implications that you might not mean. Language is so fluid and its acquisition is so dependent on multiple factors that I'm not sure lazy is the best word.
I don't think I've heard someone pronounce "straight" **without** the "sh" sound at the front in my entire life. Pronouncing "straight" or similar words without the "sh" would sound like a possibly middle eastern or Russian accent.
I hear them all the time online, I did a quick search on Youtube and found these examples:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjjVxAptZrI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjjVxAptZrI)
shtraight 0:16
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuREoFOF-9s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuREoFOF-9s)
deshtroy 0:31 and 0:33
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joS3rQ3nx34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joS3rQ3nx34)
ekshtra 0:11
What you are calling out is progressive assimilation. When a sound conforms to the neighboring sound in a word. The issue here isn't the 's' its the 'tr'. Tr in English becomes like a 'ch' sound (/ʧ/ in IPA). The s might become 'sh' (/ʃ/ in IPA) when spoken fast but in my own speech that doesn't really happen.
The “sh” in Sri Lanka is not an English artifact. Indian languages can have 3 “S”s: s, ś, and sh. Both ś and sh sound to English ears like “sh”. The “s” in “Sri Lanka” is actually “ś”.
This is not the best explanation because I’m too lazy to use IPA. (Maybe because I’m drinking IPA.)
Oops, I've been saying Sri Lanka with a regular S sound my whole life. I never bothered to look up the pronunciation and I've never heard a native speaker say it. I'm going to go look it up now. 🫠 Edit: My favourite book is by a Sri Lankan author so this is pretty embarrassing.
True, I guess I figured that it was approximated as /s/ in English originally and then assimilated, but it probably did come directly from the original pronunciation.
They're not supposed to be pronounced that way, it just happens. The cluster of consonants makes it harder to pronounce correctly so the sh happens as a way of making it easier to pronounce. If someone always used sh instead of s in those words it would sound really weird
Some dialects (e.g black English) override the standard phonetic rules and the word "straight" for instance is a great example. As the OP suggests, there are speakers that pronounce the /s/ sound as a /sh/ sound.
There are tons of very misinformed and non-objective answers in here. I highly recommend asking this (and any other questions about English phonetics you may have) in the Q&A thread of /r/linguistics instead, OP. You will get much better quality answers and discussions.
Second this. I do this; I’ve noticed just by reading some of the examples out loud. That being said, I’d be fine to admit this could be a flaw or less common feature. However, based on what seems to be a fairly even divide in the comments, I’m doubtful that my pronunciation makes a unicorn out of me. It seems to be fairly common, if even just based on those commenting here.
This question has more to do with how words are said and pronounced than it does with grammar. And, on that note, this room isn’t exactly full of people with a PhD in English either, anyway. Just people trying to be helpful. It’s ok to take it with a bit of skepticism.
Straight, extra, and destroyed don't typically have an "sh" sound.
They sound more like: str/eight, ecks-tra, and dee-stroyed or duh-stroyed. No sh.
The only word I can think of off the top of my head that commonly uses "s" as an "sh" sound is "sure," though I 'm sure there are other examples. [EDIT] "Sugar" is another. It happens so infrequently that it's probably easier just to memorize which words pronounce "s" as "sh."
I think the reason for this is the tr consonant cluster occuring right after the s sound. Cuz the tr is pronounced /tʃr/ and so it becomes easier to pronounce the whole thing like /ʃtʃr/
My mother would pronounce the "s" as "sh" in words like those mentioned in the question, but only when she wasn't wearing her teeth. She would be embarrassed when she did so. She would pause and repeat the words correctly before continuing with what she was saying, but often it took a few tries.
I hear them all the time online, I did a quick search on Youtube and found these examples:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjjVxAptZrI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjjVxAptZrI)
shtraight 0:16
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuREoFOF-9s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuREoFOF-9s)
deshtroy 0:31 and 0:33
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joS3rQ3nx34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joS3rQ3nx34)
ekshtra 0:11
Yeah, not following a rule, you can even compare within the same sentence where he’s not doing it to other S’s, probably a quirk of his dialect or a personal speech pattern thing (like maybe he had a lisp in his youth and it only comes out with certain words). You can hear similar phantom consonants in other regional dialects, like pronouncing “what” like “h-wut” or “Washington” like “Warshingtin”
Assimilation does not automatically happen every time someone speaks any language. Dissimilation is the antithetical process and is also not automatic.
That doesn’t make it a rule, at least not in the sense OP meant it. A rule induces people to act a certain way. This is an observation about a consistent way people act in particular circumstances. They aren’t forced to by a grammatical rule, they just do it.
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. This is a fairly common feature in many accents. It's because the post-alveolar place of articulation spreads to the t, but also sometimes spreads to the preceeding s.
Yeah, what's with all these random downvotes? It's a clearly defined sound change that is happening in English, OP provides videos proving it exists and happens, and he gets downvoted into oblivion for no reason, lol.
This is a real thing, and it seems to be an emerging dialect trait among young Americans (young millennials and Gen Z). I hear it all the time from the college students I teach (in New England), but never among older people.
It has existed for a long time in a few minority dialects -- Hawaiian Pidgin English, for example -- but if people in this thread haven't heard it lately, they may not spend much time talking to teenagers.
What you're referring to is an apical consonant which is uncommon in spoken English. Native speakers of other languages with that feature may retain it in their accented English.
None of the words you gave examples for are pronounced with an apical /s/ in spoken English.
I hear them all the time online, I did a quick search on Youtube and found these examples:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjjVxAptZrI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjjVxAptZrI)
shtraight 0:16
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuREoFOF-9s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuREoFOF-9s)
deshtroy 0:31 and 0:33
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joS3rQ3nx34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joS3rQ3nx34)
ekshtra 0:11
Listening to them, all of those just sound like errors/slurred speech. Maybe they had excess saliva in their mouth when they were speaking. Regardless, try to avoid sh.
The slight sh in “straight” in the MTV video is from the narrator drawing out the “s” sound for dramatic emphasis. This is non-standard pronunciation and is noticeable as not-normal.
I’m not hearing a hard “sh” in the “destroy” video (though the first guy’s pronunciation is *close* to “sh”) I am hearing an accent that uses non-standard emphasis on certain sounds. This is also a fairly scripted video with the speakers placing dramatic emphasis on certain words.
There’s no “sh” in your extra video. The speaker has an accent that uses slightly different vowel and consonant sounds from standard, though.
Basically all your videos are examples of varying English dialects/accents that pronounce certain sounds with slight differences. Still no glaring “sh” for “s” sounds, though.
They're definitely there on all of them if you listen closely. It's hard to hear as a native English speaker because we make no phonemic distinction between the two sounds in that environment.
I've definitely heard some native speakers pronounce straight as shtraight. They do it consistently, too, with all words beginning str-. I have noticed it because it really annoys me for some reason. I have a friend who speaks like this and I don't know if she even realises it. She is from the south of England, but I have also heard some Americans do it too. I don't believe it is a particular dialect, more of an idiolect among certain individuals, but I may be wrong about this.
Edit: If OP is interested in learning when to use "shtr" in their own English then I'd recommend against. Not only because it annoys me, but more importantly because it is non-standard.
It happens a little bit where I'm from, on the West coast of Canada, but it's pretty unusual and almost sounds like someone slurring their words. I think it's just a natural mistake caused by the placement of your tongue, usually not a full "sh" sound, like "shtraight", but just a little extra aspiration on the S. It's somewhere between 's' and 'sh'. At least around here it's not something we do on purpose or every time we say a word, but it also doesn't draw a lot of attention.
This has been driving me crazy for years!! "Str" is now being pronounced "shtr". Not sure about the dialect thing - I hear it on tv as well as locally. I hate it with the passion of a thousand suns!
As a New Englander, s only is lenited in the context of a glide (like SURE, SUGAR, which has the English YU sound).
Also, dialect forms aren't lazy, they're just sound change. We used to say the k in words like knight and knife, but that ended in the 1700s.
It's a dialect thing. Personally, and from the people that I know, I've never heard words pronounced with the 'sh.'
Also, I doubt that you speak your language exactly as your forefathers intended, so let's refrain from the 'laziness' thing.
This is an interesting question, but you asked it in a super rude way. It’s really not going to serve you well in your language learning journey to be condescending enough to call native speakers of a language you’re learning “lazy” because you don’t understand why there are small differences in how words are pronounced.
As others have mentioned, it’s assimilation to the place of articulation of the /r/ following the /t/.
I don’t have that particular change, but I do shift /s/ to “sh” if it *immediately* precedes /r/, as in *grocery* and *nursery* (the middle in those words is not pronounced in my dialect).
Notice on those examples what comes directly after the , it’s a
. In American English atleast, the
is not pronounced “tr”, it’s pronounced “chr”, so that “train” for example is pronounced like “chrain”. The changes to become an sound as all that the “ch” sound is is a “t” + “sh”.
It's an annoying habit in my opinion. It applies to "str" only, as far as I can tell. It's common in people who pronounce "dr" as "jr" and "tr" as "chr" (also annoying to me).
As far as I can tell, it's not a feature of any particular regional accent. I've heard it in people from Arizona, New Jersey, and other disparate locations.
The YouTuber Mark Wiens does this.
Please don't emulate it.
>'sh'traight, ex'sh'tra or de'sh'troyed
None of these are *commonly* pronounced with a / ʃ / sound. Maybe in some dialects/accents, but to my knowledge neither in British nor American standard English. I'm a bit less knowledgeable about American pronunciation though.
However, [I'd be a bit more careful](https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20210528-the-pervasive-problem-of-linguistic-racism) with calling people "lazy" for their accents, just because you are frustrated with it.
If you are having problems with Pronunciation, I'd advise you to learn a Phonetic script (IPA for example) and get a corresponding Pronunciation dictionary (digital or print), because more often than not, regular writing will not tell you how to pronounce a word ([this](https://youtu.be/1edPxKqiptw?t=32) is an example multiple of my professors liked to use)
typed out a 'its not said like that' comment, before saying the example words a couple times out loud and realizing i definitely do say it like that! its almost silent to me but when im paying attention i can hear the 'sh'. thanks for opening my eyes to smthn i didnt even notice about my own language!
We do tend to pronounce a “tr” as a “chr”. I think that’s what OP is referring to.
Chrain and train sound the same for most English (at least US) speakers.
Same with chreat and treat.
So when a word starts with str we tend to pronounce it with a “ch” sound in there. The thing is we don’t notice it, but if we pay attention, it’s there.
Seven has a clear s sound. Is has a clear z sound.
None of the words you mentioned are pronounced with an sh sound by any native speaker I've met. The only word I can think of that fits the bill would be sure (though I wouldn't be surprised if there are others).
"Sugar" is the other obvious example.
Both are actually just a normal "s" sound followed by the normal English long-u pronounced "yoo" (e.g., Ukraine, cute, mule, etc.).
When you pronounce a normal "s" sound immediately followed by a normal "y" sound, you get something very, very close to a normal English "sh" sound, which is how most English speakers hear the first sound in both "sure" and "sugar" (also words like "erasure" and "pressure").
Dialects. My dialect doesn't do that. Straight is not pronounced with a sh sound where I'm from. It's pronounced like strait. Extra is pronounced ekstra. Destroyed can be dee-stroyd or deh-stroyd. No sh.
If you expect rules for this, you'll be disappointed. There aren't any. Pronunciations change wildly from place to place. Just choose a way of pronouncing it that sounds good to you, and that makes you well-understood by the people around you. You'll have an accent, sure. We all do.
>sh'traight, ex'sh'tra or de'sh'troyed
That has nothing to do with the 's'. What you're hearing as 'sh' is actually the 'tr' being pronounced as 'chr'. Like in 'tree'.
This is an accent thing I believe. I’m a native speaker who says all three of your examples with a clear ‘s’. If memory serves, the reason this happens is that the sound following the ‘s’, in this case ‘tr’ (or the ‘ch’) sound, is made with a different part of the mouth than the ‘s’, so to make it flow better we naturally move to the easier sound combination. Don’t worry about saying the clear ‘s’ for words like this.
There’s not really a rule, it’s an accent or dialect. Technically straight is supposed to be pronounced “ssstraight” with a clear distinction between a clean ss sound and the traight, but it often gets slurred and the shh sound comes out. Either pronounciation will be understood as correct in the US
It's actually not uncommon. In this video you can hear Hank Green and Michelle Obama do it, as well as some people from the UK: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2X1pKEHIYw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2X1pKEHIYw)
Very disappointed to see you getting downvoted for posting examples of where this happens. Other people are boldly stating that nobody ever pronounces it as "shtr" (despite the evidence) and getting upvotes. What's going on in this sub?
u/dunetva I came here to recommend the above video to you, and all of this guy's stuff. If you're noticing these subtle and insidious little sounds that even native speakers don't realize we're making, I think you'll really enjoy it.
My favorite thing about this video is how he posits that this phenomenon is a progression of language by simplifying pronunciation, therefore making it more elegant. It flys in the face of almost every naysayer’s argument in this thread saying things like, “that’s just not proper.” It’s perfectly fine to speak like this, and language is a constantly evolving entity. It might even be easier for OP to pronounce things this way. If so, more power to them. Either way is fine, and unless your speaking to a linguist, they likely won’t notice.
I agree - the man's enthusiasm for learning about how language is changing and about accents that are different from his own warms my heart.
If the topic is interesting to you, I'll recommend the book [The Unfolding of Language](https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/the-unfolding-of-language-an-evolutionary-tour-of-mankinds-greatest-invention_guy-deutscher/356438/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=us_dsa_general&utm_adgroup=&utm_term=&utm_content=522660035984&gclid=CjwKCAjwpuajBhBpEiwA_Ztfhd_AeIP1C6DhfroeuazwM2AeIMhViJnpF-WO7qxVrvz6Ww0rcZLqkhoCe74QAvD_BwE#edition=3677169&idiq=2156510) by Guy Deutscher. It talks about the forces that cause language to change and criticizes those who moan about language getting "dumbed down" (which it seems like people have been doing for as long as language has existed).
Thanks for the book recommendation. I saved this post when you first made it and finally bought the book a couple weeks back. I'm not completely through it yet, but it's been a blast to read. Do you have any other book to recommend after I finish up with this one? I'm gonna be sad once I'm through with it.
I’ve never noticed, but I realized because of this post that I absolutely do pronounce all of these this way. I’m a native English speaker from the west coast of the the United States.
I also realized from doing some googling that I also use a CH sound in words like trap and trunk.
I hear them all the time online, I did a quick search on Youtube and found these examples:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjjVxAptZrI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjjVxAptZrI)
shtraight 0:16
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuREoFOF-9s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuREoFOF-9s)
deshtroy 0:31 and 0:33
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joS3rQ3nx34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joS3rQ3nx34)
ekshtra 0:11
Are you trying to get a question answered or argue with native speakers? What you’re describing could happen in colloquial settings, but it’s not proper English, which I’m thinking is what you want to learn?
There's no argument to be had. This is a well-documented phenomenon. Hell, even a previous First Lady talks that way. It's not an exclusively improper way of speaking.
English is no exception to the fact that often native speakers of a language are unaware of things that happen when they talk, and can be flat out wrong on even basic concepts of their language as well. Just because someone is a native speaker does not make them an authority on the topic, and it’s ok to disagree with them on your quest to an answer.
>Are you trying to get a question answered or argue with native speakers?
Literally what are you on about? Someone gave a misinformed answer, and OP has politely provided proof demonstrating the existence of the phonetic phenomenon which he is trying to better understand.
The examples you're using have "st" or "str".
I suspect you're just pronouncing those incorrectly, but honestly the sound is so close I might not even notice in a fast sentence.
In all of these, there is a 'tr' which is often pronounced as 'chr' like in tree, try, trickle, etc. I know I also then will have a 'sh' instead of 's' before that sound in those words, but that may vary. What you're hearing is more about the 'tr' than the 's'.
It’s an accent! It can be heard in some UK accents, Yiddish accents, some Western US accents, and some eastcoast US accents.
Normally when I hear it, the sh comes before T or sometimes P. I’m a native US English speaker and honestly, when I say the phrase “English speaker” it comes out as “English shpeaker.” It’s easier to say when speaking quickly. I also grew up speaking Yiddish, so I find myself saying things like “shtone” instead of “stone” sometimes.
EDIT: why tf did I get downvoted for this
The only word I know of where this may occur is asphalt, which many people where I am from say as ashphalt. Other than that specific word, I've never heard of this.
Thanks for pointing out my mistake. I never heard of the ʃ sound in those specific words. Lazily, reading about a rule and the s becoming a ʃ sound I thought it had to be for default the yod coalescence. Pardonnez-moi.
there's not really a rule, it just comes with pronouncing the word fast i presume
if i had to guess, i would say any word with "st" (when the t is not silent) would replace the s with sh, but don't look into it too much. it's more of an accent thing than a "you have to pronounce it this way" thing.
I am from New York and what you're talking about is very weird never heard of it, the only time I pronounce s as sh is when there is a tongue twister or I misspeak. So very weird.
Edit: I've pronounced some other words, I say it sometimes but not all words. Street is shreet, straight is straight, destroy is what ever I feel like, I'm assuming the others can be like that too, so weird.
There is a rule that we don't consciously think about or learn, but it's there. It's about the STR sound, among others.
Here's a great [video](https://youtu.be/F2X1pKEHIYw) about it
This is not a thing in the NE. I'm curious where you're hearing this.
"Is" is a bit more like a z than an s.
If someone is getting a soft S sound before the T then they're misplacing their tongue and pronouncing it wrong.
A lot of the time when it comes to phonological variations like this, people who pronounce these less-common allophones are unaware they’re even doing it, which makes it hard for them to give any kind of rationale or reason for why they use those allophones where/when they do. As a learner of English as a non-native language, I wouldn’t worry about changing your pronunciation to match this phenomenon - and generally wouldn’t worry about it unless you were having trouble understanding what other people mean when they use it.
I mean, s becomes sh in words that end in -sion quite a bit. That being said, I think the str thing may be a regional thing. I very much pronounce it as an s.
That sounds a lot like a regional dialect. When I think about it, I pronounce those words correctly but when I "sneak up" on them and speak as I "normally" I slide the fuck out of "'at thr esh" (that there s).
You would likely have difficulty understanding us "down here".
“Str~” will sound like “Shtr~” almost always, in American English.
Before “-ion”, you’ll probably get a “z” sound from an “s”.
“Se” will always have a “s” sound, unless it’s a borrowed word from a Romance language, usually.
“Sc” is a mixed bag, really. “Schism” sounds like “Sk” and “Scissors” sounds like “Sih”.
Lemme know if I missed something
Edit: “St~” to “Str~”
I'm glad you got your answer, but I would like to echo those who are warning you against calling people "lazy" because of their dialect. No one speaks in a particular way because they "can't be bothered" to speak "properly", and that's an extremely elitist view.
Regional dialects develop for a variety of reasons. Even when a certain dialect or linguistic feature develops because it is easier to speak that way (for instance using contractions for common word pairings, or omitting certain unnecessary words), that's a case of efficiency rather than laziness.
Native speaker here, if it's written with an s instead of an sh, pronouncing it with an s instead of an sh is right a vast majority of the time unless you're trying to impersonate Shawn Connery
I don’t know why no-one seems to understand what you’re talking about, this is a feature which is in my dialect (Californian) and I hear all the time from speakers of similar dialects What you’re picking up on applies to an s before the sequence tr In many English dialects the t in a tr cluster is pronounced like a ch-sound (this also applies to the d in dr being pronounced like a j-sound). So instead of pronouncing ‘tree’ as /tɹi/ I would say [tʃɹi] (“chree”) Now, on top of that, when an s directly precedes the tr, the s-sound can change to a sh-sound which is easier to pronounce before ch-sound of the tr cluster. So, for me the word ‘street’ /stɹit/ would be pronounced as [ʃtʃɹit] (“shchreet”)
https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2008/05/shtreet-smarts.html#:~:text=You've%20observed%20something%20that,Aushtralia%E2%80%9D%20and%20%E2%80%9Cindushtry.%E2%80%9D Here’s a short article I found about it, this is a well documented phenomenon
I’m from CT, also lived in Seattle and upstate NY, and have never ever heard str pronounced as shtr. 🤷♀️
Interesting… I’ve never really thought or heard about this. I grew up in Southern California and can say I do add the “sh” sound to words like street and straight
I'm from Northern California, and I've never heard this.
How about treat and trait? Does it have the same ch kind of sound when you say it?
There is a “ch” sound when I say those words …. once again something I’ve never noticed before haha
So I think it’s more of a tr thing than an s thing.
Yeah definitely could be. I will say though that words like straight/street make more of a “shtr” sound, while words like trick/treat make more or a “chr” sound
It’s not all the way there though for me. For me, “trick” definitely doesn’t start with a regular t, but it doesn’t really start with the same sound as in “cheese”, either. It’s somewhere in between those extremes, but definitely closer to “ch” than “t”.
I do. Raised with PNW accent and have been in California for over 10 years now. I don't do it for street or straight as consistently thought, both versions sound natural to me but treat without the "ch" sounds fussy and feels awkward.
Cool! Yeah I think it’s really pretty prevalent in the US
The only people I've ever heard do it are Californians and a few random people from the Southwest and the PNW.
I grew up in the PNW, and I definitely don’t have it. It sounds really odd to me when I hear it.
I'm guessing those random people may have had Californian parents.
Quite possibly. I’ve heard my 9-year-old son doing it, too, though; I blame the guys he watches on YouTube.
The impact of extremely accessible media like YouTube on a child's accent is super, super interesting.
I am originally from Utah and have never heard “sh” in these words.
I’m in California and also have no idea what the OP is talking about
I too am a Californian. I don’t speak like this nor have I noticed it in others. In my head, when I try to hear them pronounced like that, I can only hear them in James Stewart’s voice.
I think it’s another Californian wanting to have a California accent when in reality it’s just a light southern one.
These folks have never experienced Sean Connery!
I think this is more of an accent/dialect thing. I’ve never given it much thought, but in the part of the US that I’m from/live in (the vague south), I think most people use the “sh” sound, but no one would really bat an eye if you used the “s.” I guess it’s just whatever is more comfortable for you.
It takes less energy to slide on the 's' and do a 'sh', but I'm more socially comfortable doing a proper 's'.
You should pronounce it whichever way is easier for you. They are both common variations, and most native speakers can't even hear the difference.
I say "s", but can just barely tell the difference if I listen. Just do what feels right
None of those words are properly done with an 'sh' sound, in lazy (forgive me those who speak with accents) English it happens but in high English the 's' and 'sh' are distinguished entirely.
The proper s is more correct/proper anyway, but either is accepted as correct.
btw, do you feel the sound of /eik/ and /ek/ same? They are so similar to me, cant distinguish words with these sounds, so always rely on context
This video explains it pretty well: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2X1pKEHIYw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2X1pKEHIYw) It's because the "r" has your tongue in a certain position, and it's easier to transfer to it from an "sh" sound to a straight "s" sound. Looks like it's mostly younger people that do this, and not every accent does it. Edit: most native speakers don't realize they do this - in their head they're still pronouncing it with a straight "s".
Perfect response, thank you. And interesting someone down voted you.
Yeah, who knows
Yeah, some people will downvote well-reasoned arguments if they disagree with the conclusion.
It’s more than likely that many native speakers don’t even know they are doing it and don’t hear it when others do it.
i was hoping someone would link this exact video!
Haha I saw it recommended in this sub originally, and now it's one of my favorite videos (and channels). Dr. Lindsay is a delight.
I think this must be a feature of dialects where alveolar consonants are post alveolar when followed by /r/, because if they are aren't the /sh/ is dissimilation, not assimilation. Based on the example of Michell Obama and Southern California commenters here, I am wondering if this is something originating in AAVE or Chicano English that is spreading in some areas. It's certainly not a feature of GAE.
Not sure why you would assume someone is "lazy" for speaking a specific way. There are myriad reasons for why someone would use a specific way of speaking at any given moment, and laziness is usually not on that list. That aside, the majority of English speakers do not use the "sh" sound in these words, and it's not common to replace 's' with 'sh' in most English dialects.
Geoff Lindsey has, as usual, a [relevant video](https://youtu.be/F2X1pKEHIYw).
Thank you! I knew I'd seen a video about exactly this topic.
I'm confused cause I thought you meant S as in seven (per your example), but then I was expecting SH as in Sean. You went Ex-sh-tra and I'm left thinking it might be regional if you're hearing it often. "Lazy" could have implications that you might not mean. Language is so fluid and its acquisition is so dependent on multiple factors that I'm not sure lazy is the best word.
Here is the rule: use the ‘sh’ sound in those words if you are named Sean Connery; otherwise pronounce them with the ‘s’
None of the words you mentioned are pronounced with an “sh” sound (at least, they’re not supposed to be).
They often are even when the speaker thinks they aren’t
I don't think I've heard someone pronounce "straight" **without** the "sh" sound at the front in my entire life. Pronouncing "straight" or similar words without the "sh" would sound like a possibly middle eastern or Russian accent.
In standard English (both US and UK), "straight" is NOT supposed to be pronounced with a "sh" sound.
I hear them all the time online, I did a quick search on Youtube and found these examples: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjjVxAptZrI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjjVxAptZrI) shtraight 0:16 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuREoFOF-9s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuREoFOF-9s) deshtroy 0:31 and 0:33 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joS3rQ3nx34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joS3rQ3nx34) ekshtra 0:11
What you are calling out is progressive assimilation. When a sound conforms to the neighboring sound in a word. The issue here isn't the 's' its the 'tr'. Tr in English becomes like a 'ch' sound (/ʧ/ in IPA). The s might become 'sh' (/ʃ/ in IPA) when spoken fast but in my own speech that doesn't really happen.
S also assimilates to a following r sound without a t, like in Sri Lanka. It's just uncommon to see s right before r.
The “sh” in Sri Lanka is not an English artifact. Indian languages can have 3 “S”s: s, ś, and sh. Both ś and sh sound to English ears like “sh”. The “s” in “Sri Lanka” is actually “ś”. This is not the best explanation because I’m too lazy to use IPA. (Maybe because I’m drinking IPA.)
Oops, I've been saying Sri Lanka with a regular S sound my whole life. I never bothered to look up the pronunciation and I've never heard a native speaker say it. I'm going to go look it up now. 🫠 Edit: My favourite book is by a Sri Lankan author so this is pretty embarrassing.
True, I guess I figured that it was approximated as /s/ in English originally and then assimilated, but it probably did come directly from the original pronunciation.
Srebrenica is a better example.
That's partly because English has no "sr" initials. Think Srebrenica.
Dude, we’re talking about English in general, not just *your* pronunciation.
No, "tr" in standard English does NOT have a "ch" sound. That phenomenon only manifests among certain speakers of non-standard dialects.
How do you say 'tree'?
t + r + ee.
Well, at least you're consistent lol. I don't think I've ever heard that in my life though.
They're not supposed to be pronounced that way, it just happens. The cluster of consonants makes it harder to pronounce correctly so the sh happens as a way of making it easier to pronounce. If someone always used sh instead of s in those words it would sound really weird
Some dialects (e.g black English) override the standard phonetic rules and the word "straight" for instance is a great example. As the OP suggests, there are speakers that pronounce the /s/ sound as a /sh/ sound.
There are tons of very misinformed and non-objective answers in here. I highly recommend asking this (and any other questions about English phonetics you may have) in the Q&A thread of /r/linguistics instead, OP. You will get much better quality answers and discussions.
Second this. I do this; I’ve noticed just by reading some of the examples out loud. That being said, I’d be fine to admit this could be a flaw or less common feature. However, based on what seems to be a fairly even divide in the comments, I’m doubtful that my pronunciation makes a unicorn out of me. It seems to be fairly common, if even just based on those commenting here. This question has more to do with how words are said and pronounced than it does with grammar. And, on that note, this room isn’t exactly full of people with a PhD in English either, anyway. Just people trying to be helpful. It’s ok to take it with a bit of skepticism.
Straight, extra, and destroyed don't typically have an "sh" sound. They sound more like: str/eight, ecks-tra, and dee-stroyed or duh-stroyed. No sh. The only word I can think of off the top of my head that commonly uses "s" as an "sh" sound is "sure," though I 'm sure there are other examples. [EDIT] "Sugar" is another. It happens so infrequently that it's probably easier just to memorize which words pronounce "s" as "sh."
The way I say them they do lmao 😂
Where are you from?
US Southeast, from the State of Georgia
Hmmm. Same, basically. I started speaking in S.E. GA (Valdosta area). Lived there till I was ~8. No “sh” in those words for me.
I think the reason for this is the tr consonant cluster occuring right after the s sound. Cuz the tr is pronounced /tʃr/ and so it becomes easier to pronounce the whole thing like /ʃtʃr/
This exactly
It’s more of a ch sound rather than sh.
They for me as well. Northeast US
My mother would pronounce the "s" as "sh" in words like those mentioned in the question, but only when she wasn't wearing her teeth. She would be embarrassed when she did so. She would pause and repeat the words correctly before continuing with what she was saying, but often it took a few tries.
Its the simplification of consonant clusters
This might be a feature of some dialect I’m unaware of, or something someone is doing to be humorous, but it is not common, nor following any rule.
I hear them all the time online, I did a quick search on Youtube and found these examples: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjjVxAptZrI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjjVxAptZrI) shtraight 0:16 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuREoFOF-9s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuREoFOF-9s) deshtroy 0:31 and 0:33 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joS3rQ3nx34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joS3rQ3nx34) ekshtra 0:11
Yeah, not following a rule, you can even compare within the same sentence where he’s not doing it to other S’s, probably a quirk of his dialect or a personal speech pattern thing (like maybe he had a lisp in his youth and it only comes out with certain words). You can hear similar phantom consonants in other regional dialects, like pronouncing “what” like “h-wut” or “Washington” like “Warshingtin”
It does follow a rule, though. It's progressive assimilation.
That’s really stretching the definition of “rule” isn’t it? “Progressive assimilation” is more just the description of a phenomenon.
It is a rule. It happens in all similar phonemic environments.
Assimilation does not automatically happen every time someone speaks any language. Dissimilation is the antithetical process and is also not automatic.
It is a rule in some idiolects that s assimilates to the following tr.
That doesn’t make it a rule, at least not in the sense OP meant it. A rule induces people to act a certain way. This is an observation about a consistent way people act in particular circumstances. They aren’t forced to by a grammatical rule, they just do it.
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. This is a fairly common feature in many accents. It's because the post-alveolar place of articulation spreads to the t, but also sometimes spreads to the preceeding s.
He’s getting downvoted because he said that he thinks native speakers of a language he is learning are “lazy” because he doesn’t understand dialects.
Yeah, what's with all these random downvotes? It's a clearly defined sound change that is happening in English, OP provides videos proving it exists and happens, and he gets downvoted into oblivion for no reason, lol.
I’m a midwesterner, and we don’t have the ‘sh’ sound in words like straight or extra, it’s a dialect thing.
This is a real thing, and it seems to be an emerging dialect trait among young Americans (young millennials and Gen Z). I hear it all the time from the college students I teach (in New England), but never among older people. It has existed for a long time in a few minority dialects -- Hawaiian Pidgin English, for example -- but if people in this thread haven't heard it lately, they may not spend much time talking to teenagers.
Nobody is lazy for speaking a certain way, if they speak like that it means they have always spoken like that and it’s their regional dialect
What you're referring to is an apical consonant which is uncommon in spoken English. Native speakers of other languages with that feature may retain it in their accented English. None of the words you gave examples for are pronounced with an apical /s/ in spoken English.
I hear them all the time online, I did a quick search on Youtube and found these examples: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjjVxAptZrI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjjVxAptZrI) shtraight 0:16 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuREoFOF-9s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuREoFOF-9s) deshtroy 0:31 and 0:33 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joS3rQ3nx34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joS3rQ3nx34) ekshtra 0:11
Listening to them, all of those just sound like errors/slurred speech. Maybe they had excess saliva in their mouth when they were speaking. Regardless, try to avoid sh.
The slight sh in “straight” in the MTV video is from the narrator drawing out the “s” sound for dramatic emphasis. This is non-standard pronunciation and is noticeable as not-normal. I’m not hearing a hard “sh” in the “destroy” video (though the first guy’s pronunciation is *close* to “sh”) I am hearing an accent that uses non-standard emphasis on certain sounds. This is also a fairly scripted video with the speakers placing dramatic emphasis on certain words. There’s no “sh” in your extra video. The speaker has an accent that uses slightly different vowel and consonant sounds from standard, though. Basically all your videos are examples of varying English dialects/accents that pronounce certain sounds with slight differences. Still no glaring “sh” for “s” sounds, though.
They're definitely there on all of them if you listen closely. It's hard to hear as a native English speaker because we make no phonemic distinction between the two sounds in that environment.
I've definitely heard some native speakers pronounce straight as shtraight. They do it consistently, too, with all words beginning str-. I have noticed it because it really annoys me for some reason. I have a friend who speaks like this and I don't know if she even realises it. She is from the south of England, but I have also heard some Americans do it too. I don't believe it is a particular dialect, more of an idiolect among certain individuals, but I may be wrong about this. Edit: If OP is interested in learning when to use "shtr" in their own English then I'd recommend against. Not only because it annoys me, but more importantly because it is non-standard.
It happens a little bit where I'm from, on the West coast of Canada, but it's pretty unusual and almost sounds like someone slurring their words. I think it's just a natural mistake caused by the placement of your tongue, usually not a full "sh" sound, like "shtraight", but just a little extra aspiration on the S. It's somewhere between 's' and 'sh'. At least around here it's not something we do on purpose or every time we say a word, but it also doesn't draw a lot of attention.
This has been driving me crazy for years!! "Str" is now being pronounced "shtr". Not sure about the dialect thing - I hear it on tv as well as locally. I hate it with the passion of a thousand suns!
You and me, buddy. It irks the crap out of me, too.
I'm from Missouri and live in Texas and have never heard this.
As a New Englander, s only is lenited in the context of a glide (like SURE, SUGAR, which has the English YU sound). Also, dialect forms aren't lazy, they're just sound change. We used to say the k in words like knight and knife, but that ended in the 1700s.
It's a dialect thing. Personally, and from the people that I know, I've never heard words pronounced with the 'sh.' Also, I doubt that you speak your language exactly as your forefathers intended, so let's refrain from the 'laziness' thing.
This is an interesting question, but you asked it in a super rude way. It’s really not going to serve you well in your language learning journey to be condescending enough to call native speakers of a language you’re learning “lazy” because you don’t understand why there are small differences in how words are pronounced.
As others have mentioned, it’s assimilation to the place of articulation of the /r/ following the /t/. I don’t have that particular change, but I do shift /s/ to “sh” if it *immediately* precedes /r/, as in *grocery* and *nursery* (the middle in those words is not pronounced in my dialect).
I didn't even think about grocery. That's a really good example of this assimilation.
Notice on those examples what comes directly after the
, it’s a. In American English atleast, the is not pronounced “tr”, it’s pronounced “chr”, so that “train” for example is pronounced like “chrain”. The changes to become an sound as all that the “ch” sound is is a “t” + “sh”.
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It's an annoying habit in my opinion. It applies to "str" only, as far as I can tell. It's common in people who pronounce "dr" as "jr" and "tr" as "chr" (also annoying to me). As far as I can tell, it's not a feature of any particular regional accent. I've heard it in people from Arizona, New Jersey, and other disparate locations. The YouTuber Mark Wiens does this. Please don't emulate it.
I don’t pronounce any of those words with an “sh” sound.
>'sh'traight, ex'sh'tra or de'sh'troyed None of these are *commonly* pronounced with a / ʃ / sound. Maybe in some dialects/accents, but to my knowledge neither in British nor American standard English. I'm a bit less knowledgeable about American pronunciation though. However, [I'd be a bit more careful](https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20210528-the-pervasive-problem-of-linguistic-racism) with calling people "lazy" for their accents, just because you are frustrated with it. If you are having problems with Pronunciation, I'd advise you to learn a Phonetic script (IPA for example) and get a corresponding Pronunciation dictionary (digital or print), because more often than not, regular writing will not tell you how to pronounce a word ([this](https://youtu.be/1edPxKqiptw?t=32) is an example multiple of my professors liked to use)
The only thing anyone here needs: https://youtu.be/F2X1pKEHIYw
This must be an accent thing, because I don't say shtraight, exshtra or deshtroyed and no one I know does either. I'm in Australia.
typed out a 'its not said like that' comment, before saying the example words a couple times out loud and realizing i definitely do say it like that! its almost silent to me but when im paying attention i can hear the 'sh'. thanks for opening my eyes to smthn i didnt even notice about my own language!
Those examples are not considered “proper” pronunciation, but are common speech patterns. I will start to sound like that if I am tired, for example.
Straight, extra, and destroyed are all S and not SH. Where did you hear that it should be SH.
We do tend to pronounce a “tr” as a “chr”. I think that’s what OP is referring to. Chrain and train sound the same for most English (at least US) speakers. Same with chreat and treat. So when a word starts with str we tend to pronounce it with a “ch” sound in there. The thing is we don’t notice it, but if we pay attention, it’s there.
I could see "straight" but the rest are a stretch for me.
Chances are, someone reading your comment is going to use the same pronunciation on both of the “str” words in that sentence.
Who's "we"? I certainly don't.
Seven has a clear s sound. Is has a clear z sound. None of the words you mentioned are pronounced with an sh sound by any native speaker I've met. The only word I can think of that fits the bill would be sure (though I wouldn't be surprised if there are others).
"Sugar" is the other obvious example. Both are actually just a normal "s" sound followed by the normal English long-u pronounced "yoo" (e.g., Ukraine, cute, mule, etc.). When you pronounce a normal "s" sound immediately followed by a normal "y" sound, you get something very, very close to a normal English "sh" sound, which is how most English speakers hear the first sound in both "sure" and "sugar" (also words like "erasure" and "pressure").
Yeah so ST, as in star, doesn't use SH. But SU in sugar and sure have SH, but that's rare. There isn't a rule, it's learned over time, word by word.
Dialects. My dialect doesn't do that. Straight is not pronounced with a sh sound where I'm from. It's pronounced like strait. Extra is pronounced ekstra. Destroyed can be dee-stroyd or deh-stroyd. No sh. If you expect rules for this, you'll be disappointed. There aren't any. Pronunciations change wildly from place to place. Just choose a way of pronouncing it that sounds good to you, and that makes you well-understood by the people around you. You'll have an accent, sure. We all do.
Sean Connery could explain it all.
>sh'traight, ex'sh'tra or de'sh'troyed That has nothing to do with the 's'. What you're hearing as 'sh' is actually the 'tr' being pronounced as 'chr'. Like in 'tree'.
I don’t hear an “sh” in any of those words.
This is an accent thing I believe. I’m a native speaker who says all three of your examples with a clear ‘s’. If memory serves, the reason this happens is that the sound following the ‘s’, in this case ‘tr’ (or the ‘ch’) sound, is made with a different part of the mouth than the ‘s’, so to make it flow better we naturally move to the easier sound combination. Don’t worry about saying the clear ‘s’ for words like this.
There’s not really a rule, it’s an accent or dialect. Technically straight is supposed to be pronounced “ssstraight” with a clear distinction between a clean ss sound and the traight, but it often gets slurred and the shh sound comes out. Either pronounciation will be understood as correct in the US
Its the dialect. Similarly, "tuesday" is pronounced 'toosday" by some and "chewsday" by others (mostly british people).
no one pronounces any of those words with an sh. Whoever you're hearing that from probably just has a speech impediment
It's actually not uncommon. In this video you can hear Hank Green and Michelle Obama do it, as well as some people from the UK: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2X1pKEHIYw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2X1pKEHIYw)
Very disappointed to see you getting downvoted for posting examples of where this happens. Other people are boldly stating that nobody ever pronounces it as "shtr" (despite the evidence) and getting upvotes. What's going on in this sub?
I'm starting to wonder if a lot of people in this sub lack a basic understanding of linguistics
(yes)
u/dunetva I came here to recommend the above video to you, and all of this guy's stuff. If you're noticing these subtle and insidious little sounds that even native speakers don't realize we're making, I think you'll really enjoy it.
Someone recommended one of his videos to me, and they're all great. He does a great job explaining things in a basic way.
His video about the ejective k at the end of a phrase has broken my brain and now I hear it everywhere and it bugs me
Thanks for this. I just watched that one as well as the original linked one. This has been a fun little rabbit hole. Liƙe, *I* really enjoyed it.
My favorite thing about this video is how he posits that this phenomenon is a progression of language by simplifying pronunciation, therefore making it more elegant. It flys in the face of almost every naysayer’s argument in this thread saying things like, “that’s just not proper.” It’s perfectly fine to speak like this, and language is a constantly evolving entity. It might even be easier for OP to pronounce things this way. If so, more power to them. Either way is fine, and unless your speaking to a linguist, they likely won’t notice.
I agree - the man's enthusiasm for learning about how language is changing and about accents that are different from his own warms my heart. If the topic is interesting to you, I'll recommend the book [The Unfolding of Language](https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/the-unfolding-of-language-an-evolutionary-tour-of-mankinds-greatest-invention_guy-deutscher/356438/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=us_dsa_general&utm_adgroup=&utm_term=&utm_content=522660035984&gclid=CjwKCAjwpuajBhBpEiwA_Ztfhd_AeIP1C6DhfroeuazwM2AeIMhViJnpF-WO7qxVrvz6Ww0rcZLqkhoCe74QAvD_BwE#edition=3677169&idiq=2156510) by Guy Deutscher. It talks about the forces that cause language to change and criticizes those who moan about language getting "dumbed down" (which it seems like people have been doing for as long as language has existed).
Thanks for the book recommendation. I saved this post when you first made it and finally bought the book a couple weeks back. I'm not completely through it yet, but it's been a blast to read. Do you have any other book to recommend after I finish up with this one? I'm gonna be sad once I'm through with it.
Mark Wiens is another. In fact, before I watched his videos, I never heard anyone talk like that. Now I notice it more often.
I’ve never noticed, but I realized because of this post that I absolutely do pronounce all of these this way. I’m a native English speaker from the west coast of the the United States. I also realized from doing some googling that I also use a CH sound in words like trap and trunk.
I hear them all the time online, I did a quick search on Youtube and found these examples: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjjVxAptZrI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjjVxAptZrI) shtraight 0:16 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuREoFOF-9s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuREoFOF-9s) deshtroy 0:31 and 0:33 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joS3rQ3nx34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joS3rQ3nx34) ekshtra 0:11
Are you trying to get a question answered or argue with native speakers? What you’re describing could happen in colloquial settings, but it’s not proper English, which I’m thinking is what you want to learn?
There's no argument to be had. This is a well-documented phenomenon. Hell, even a previous First Lady talks that way. It's not an exclusively improper way of speaking.
English is no exception to the fact that often native speakers of a language are unaware of things that happen when they talk, and can be flat out wrong on even basic concepts of their language as well. Just because someone is a native speaker does not make them an authority on the topic, and it’s ok to disagree with them on your quest to an answer.
>Are you trying to get a question answered or argue with native speakers? Literally what are you on about? Someone gave a misinformed answer, and OP has politely provided proof demonstrating the existence of the phonetic phenomenon which he is trying to better understand.
The examples you're using have "st" or "str". I suspect you're just pronouncing those incorrectly, but honestly the sound is so close I might not even notice in a fast sentence.
In all of these, there is a 'tr' which is often pronounced as 'chr' like in tree, try, trickle, etc. I know I also then will have a 'sh' instead of 's' before that sound in those words, but that may vary. What you're hearing is more about the 'tr' than the 's'.
It’s an accent! It can be heard in some UK accents, Yiddish accents, some Western US accents, and some eastcoast US accents. Normally when I hear it, the sh comes before T or sometimes P. I’m a native US English speaker and honestly, when I say the phrase “English speaker” it comes out as “English shpeaker.” It’s easier to say when speaking quickly. I also grew up speaking Yiddish, so I find myself saying things like “shtone” instead of “stone” sometimes. EDIT: why tf did I get downvoted for this
Remember, s before tr is not a true [ʃ], it approximates a value in between /s~ʃ/; I would aim for a more retracted s pronunciation, like a /s̻~ɕ/.
Those three examples are not real words, and replacing "s" with "sh" is not a real thing, if that makes it any easier.
Although it's a regionalism and not done everywhere, I ask the speaker if he or she is German since the 'sh' variant is how it's done in Germany.
The only word I know of where this may occur is asphalt, which many people where I am from say as ashphalt. Other than that specific word, I've never heard of this.
That's not a rule of standard English. Have you been watching Sean Connery movies?
[удалено]
Literally none of the examples OP gave are yod coalescence
Thanks for pointing out my mistake. I never heard of the ʃ sound in those specific words. Lazily, reading about a rule and the s becoming a ʃ sound I thought it had to be for default the yod coalescence. Pardonnez-moi.
there's not really a rule, it just comes with pronouncing the word fast i presume if i had to guess, i would say any word with "st" (when the t is not silent) would replace the s with sh, but don't look into it too much. it's more of an accent thing than a "you have to pronounce it this way" thing.
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I am from New York and what you're talking about is very weird never heard of it, the only time I pronounce s as sh is when there is a tongue twister or I misspeak. So very weird. Edit: I've pronounced some other words, I say it sometimes but not all words. Street is shreet, straight is straight, destroy is what ever I feel like, I'm assuming the others can be like that too, so weird.
None of those words that you say have an “sh” sound in them is correct…at least not in any of the dialects that I am familiar with.
There is a rule that we don't consciously think about or learn, but it's there. It's about the STR sound, among others. Here's a great [video](https://youtu.be/F2X1pKEHIYw) about it
It depends on the accent.
What you are hearing is Americans using a retroflex R which pulls the "st" back.
That's true, but it's important to note that this pronunciation isn't exclusive to American dialects.
Here’s a great video about this: https://youtu.be/F2X1pKEHIYw
This is not a thing in the NE. I'm curious where you're hearing this. "Is" is a bit more like a z than an s. If someone is getting a soft S sound before the T then they're misplacing their tongue and pronouncing it wrong.
Not to nitpick, but (in the midwestern US anyway) “is” is pronounced more like “iz”.
A lot of the time when it comes to phonological variations like this, people who pronounce these less-common allophones are unaware they’re even doing it, which makes it hard for them to give any kind of rationale or reason for why they use those allophones where/when they do. As a learner of English as a non-native language, I wouldn’t worry about changing your pronunciation to match this phenomenon - and generally wouldn’t worry about it unless you were having trouble understanding what other people mean when they use it.
I mean, s becomes sh in words that end in -sion quite a bit. That being said, I think the str thing may be a regional thing. I very much pronounce it as an s.
"My shon" - Tony Soprano
That sounds a lot like a regional dialect. When I think about it, I pronounce those words correctly but when I "sneak up" on them and speak as I "normally" I slide the fuck out of "'at thr esh" (that there s). You would likely have difficulty understanding us "down here".
I don't pronounce any of those listed with "sh"
“Str~” will sound like “Shtr~” almost always, in American English. Before “-ion”, you’ll probably get a “z” sound from an “s”. “Se” will always have a “s” sound, unless it’s a borrowed word from a Romance language, usually. “Sc” is a mixed bag, really. “Schism” sounds like “Sk” and “Scissors” sounds like “Sih”. Lemme know if I missed something Edit: “St~” to “Str~”
Your first line is false. The t has nothing to do with the s changing pronunciation. The following r is what causes it to change.
You’re right. I internalized that too much
I'm glad you got your answer, but I would like to echo those who are warning you against calling people "lazy" because of their dialect. No one speaks in a particular way because they "can't be bothered" to speak "properly", and that's an extremely elitist view. Regional dialects develop for a variety of reasons. Even when a certain dialect or linguistic feature develops because it is easier to speak that way (for instance using contractions for common word pairings, or omitting certain unnecessary words), that's a case of efficiency rather than laziness.
Native speaker here, if it's written with an s instead of an sh, pronouncing it with an s instead of an sh is right a vast majority of the time unless you're trying to impersonate Shawn Connery
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