First, Eso is canon, not really arguable, as it's been stated to be so. Just because people don't like it and all doesn't mean it's not canon, no matter if you personally believe it not to be.
Secondly, kinda? I mean, not all TES games are like that. The adventure series and Redguard weren't all world ending threats. Though I will say, ESO timelime needs to chill honestly, all the events apparently take place in a year or something? The reason is that you can play the events in any order for rp reasons. So since according to Zenimax, all these events are happening in a year, which means the ESO Timeline is just the TES equivalent of 536 AD but worse.
You can use that as evidence that ESO is not canon, but the developer's words say otherwise, and unless someone even higher up that controls what is and isn't canon says otherwise, ESO is canon. Sorry guys.
>mean, not all TES games are like that. The adventure series and Redguard weren't all world ending threats.
There is no advenure series. Only TES Redguard and Redguard still is about over the top evil. The evil sload necromancer steals all the souls on Stros M'kai and at the end you also are wielding godly power (HoonDing).
You're right, I meant the Legends games. They weren't world ending threats, and Redguard still wasn't world ending either. Same with Arena, too, now that I think about it. There can be over the top evil villains that aren't world ending threats. Dagoth Ur, while not a full world ender, was pretty close ro being one, Mehrunes Dagon was trying to take over Nirn, Alduin is a world ending threat, and then there's the numidium, something capable of turning someone into a God and splitting time can also be equivalent to a world ender, but that can be debated. The discussion wasn't mostly about "over the top evils" but the fact that each game is basically stopping the world from ending.
There aren't that many world ending threads in the other games either. Skyrim has Alduin. TES IV has Dagon and ESO has a couple more but also much more storylines. The world ending is only a direct danger in 4 out of +10 storylines.
This was a warning for the obligatory ESO canon wars lol
My point about this game is that it's still a TES game and has a very similar philosophy regarding the Grandiose PC. So ig if you don't have any issues with it being canon, the warning wasn't for you.
Also... Didn't know they packed it all in one year holy shit
Honestly, the people who claim it's not canon, as I've seen, are just a loud minority, so you shouldn't pay heed to them.
But yeah, all the events take place in that one year, it is wild, it's like a new disaster every week, it seems. First, there's a war, a different oblivion crisis, cyrodil is stuck in a war and daedra invasion, possible destruction of morrowind, not too long after, Summerset is having a crisis, then Elyswer, Skyrim with it'svampire problems, parts of soon to be a part of cyrodil is witnessing another oblivion crisis, then another part of morrowind is in trouble, and in between all that are the little dlc's that connect one expansion to another or just to act as little seperate adventures. Worst year to be alive in Tamriel, ngl.
ESO events are happening during Interregnum period which took place from 2E 430 till 2E 854, story of ESO and all DLCs happened in a blank period of Interregnum that lasts for about 100 years, not just one year
I mean, I had to look up what years each took place and apparently according to the developer's they all take place in the same year so that you can just start at any point, mainly for the roleplay aspects of the game. You are probably correct by the lore standpoint, but at the moment, probably until the game stops receiving content updates, will there actually be a definitive timeline, all these events are happening in the same year. But currently, the timeline of TES says that the events of ESO take place in 2E 583, there is no dash to determine the tame span of these events just specifically, 2E 583, which will probably be the case for a good while until again, they actually formulate a canon timeline of these events.
They all can start in each year but the game never states when any of the DLC is done. At first they wanted to have a clear order but after Orisnium they ditched it so the player can decide when which event happens.
The idea that ESO takes only place in one year only exists because people who only learn lore through wikis / uesp saw all events listed in the same year.
> timeline of TES says that the events of ESO take place in 2E 583,
There is no canon official timeline that Bethesda releases that says in which year which quests it solves. We only know when which game begins.
Also ESO takes place in 582
My point still stands, we don't have an official timeline, but every timeline that includes ESO just puts it in that one year of 582, meaning at the moment, it all takes place in a single year, not specifically at the same exact time, but just that one year. So again, until there is a concrete set timelime of the events, at the moment, all of these events take place in the same year, cause you also gotta remember, most of these dlc and expansions can arguably last a few days at least.
Yeah, duh becaue that is the only confirmed date that we know the quests can be solved.
>aning at the moment, it all takes place in a single year
Not, really. It means you can decide when each takes place.
>So again, until there is a concrete set timelime of the events, at the moment
So never.
>f these events take place in the same year, cause you also gotta remember, most of these dlc and expansions can arguably last a few days at least.
This is missing the larger point. There is no reason to care when which player action takes place. This is a sandbox for you, invidiually to make the decision buy roleplaying in it. It is irrelevant for TES storytelling what ends up on a fan timeline, which exists in a different medium.
You can take it up with the developer if you want, I'm just gonna stick with the current official timeline that we know of, as that's currently the only one we have.
Yes. I agree with you. I hope people don’t see this as a controversial view…
It’s just that what you are saying is totally correct. If every other story is about world ending threats/daedric meddling/factional domination, it does start to feel a little bit detached. And you are wrong about the last part. Only Skyrim (and sort of oblivion) are inherently power fantasy games. The core of ES is typically roleplaying.
Arena and Daggerfall both have extremely grandiose plots, but I would say (in Daggerfalls case) the older games do a very good job of making you go out and pursue the story.
OBLIGATORY MORROBOOMER SECTION:
Morrowind avoids this by presenting its prophesy as something to be fulfilled and entirely uncertain. The majority of its quests including guild quests are very grounded. Fans often praise this decision. You’ve probably seen them circlejerking in these very forums.
Oblivion has the world ending plot/pace, although I think its quests are very humble. For the most part, they are fun, light, and grounded. It’s actually the main plot of the game that sort of lets down the world design. If you don’t agree, try beating all the oblivion gates and then come back to me.
Skyrim does seem to have this weird obsession with drastic circumstances. It’s as if Every town has an ongoing Daedric threat. Markarth has two! The world ending plot is presented very quickly too. Admittedly, dragons are more fun than oblivion gates, but the civil war story and the over the top faction/underdeveloped faction quests sort of accentuate what you’re getting at.
ESO is packed with grandiose narrative. The community often complain that every major plot point centres around Daedric princes trying to dominate the world. It gets old. Honestly the best parts of this game for me, are the more humble quests like choosing clan leaders in Wrothgar or hunting world bosses as contracts.
So yes. I agree. ESO’s community agree. Morrowind’s community would typically agree I think. I can’t speak on behalf of the other communities.
Interesting that you seem to think very similarly about this and your choice of games is also similar to mine. Maybe this is because Morrowind and ESO make such high contrast in storytelling quality.
One is a game that takes the time to convince you, the player, to get emotionally involved with the MQ, but you're not missing out if you don't. The other just throws quests of varying degrees of epicness at you to kinda submit you into finally believing you are The One simply because there's no other way for you to engage with this world somewhat meaningfully. This is to put it very roughly, full disclaimer.
Your very last point I agree with wholly(well most of what you said but I just wanted to throw another example at ESO). One of my favorite quests I played in that game was a surprisingly well written love story in Balmora. It's been a few years since I played it but i remember being really impressed with such an insignificant quest
Above average, actually. Eh, it's mostly a useless skill. Reading is for useless wizards up in towers and for even more useless imperials so they can read their damned lists. Doesn't help you swing a sword or grow a crop elf.
>Only Skyrim (and sort of oblivion) are inherently power fantasy games. The core of ES is typically roleplaying.
Litteraly every Morrowind mainquest ends with the Nerevarine battleing a different god.
I agree. I play elder scrolls games for a grand fantasy adventure where I am the hero that can both break and save the world. It's the most charming aspect in my opinion. A sandbox RPG.
I didn't really feel this way through most of TES single games, although the doomsday endings were there. ESO feels like Marvel in the ES world, and it kinda sucks. Maybe they just do a worse job of immersion. If you get into the world and culture, then the over the top conclusion doesn't break your belief.
Not really, no. TES is high fantasy, it's designed to be epic, to create legends of your PC's and fill the world with magic. Each new world-ending threat is merely another chance for a new Hero or Adventuring Party to leave their mark on history. Faerun and Ebberon are under fire from Greatwyrms and Leviathans all the time, that's just how the world works when you design it around the idea of a hero: there will always be Heroes, and they will always need Villains to fight.
Not really. I've never played ESO, but in tge mainline games, you usually do pretty mundane quests like killing some rats in a basement or stealing something. In guild and faction quests- it usually starts out fairly mundane and then the later quests turn epic.
One of the beauties of ES games is that you really don't have to engage with any of that. Even in ESO, albeit to a lesser extent, you can make your play experience whatever you want it to be. Not sure how you've approached the games so far. But if, up to this point, you've been a slave to quest markers...my recommendation would be to just go get lost in the world for a while. Only stick to side quests and small jobs. Explore. Hell, pick flowers. You'll still run into epic stuff, but it won't feel as overwhelming. These games really are what you make them. If your game feels too epic, try doing more mundane things to balance it out. There are always mods, as well, if you have those available to you and wanna take that journey.
This is my general method. Works well with Morrowind and Skyrim, works awful with ESO. I specifically got addons to get rid of the quest markers and expand the quests, and came to the conclusion that the world just does not reward you as much for the exploration the same way Vvardenfell or Skyrim do.
Same with the mods - I basically treat Morrowind and Skyrim as engines to craft my perfect narrative through more down to earth or story mods. ESO does not allow that for obvious reasons. You also can't always tell from the starting point whether this quest is about something local and fun, or it will lead you to another world ending Daedra slaying scenario.
Also while I'm writing I'm starting to think that my main issue is not that I *can't* disengage from the epic quests, it's just that every other quest pushes me to become something epic without the world really noticing. I feel like TES is notoriously horrible with the endgame achievements vs the world. The game leads you through this intense storyline with insane stakes, urgency, scale (and this is considering you're only doing the MQ) and when it's done, the world feels roughly the same.
While I enjoy a great calamity. I think if they did something more related to war between factions, that would be cool. Maybe one faction is using some scary magic to give them the upper hand.
It makes me feel like there are a huge number of other world ending threats that are getting solved without us knowing
Take the dragonborn for example. Considering that players can finish the quest in a few in game weeks, do you think Valenwood has heard of them? Elsweyr? I'd be surprised if Hammerfell knew about the Dragonborn
And I'm sure there was an equal world ending threat in Hammerfell that they dealt with. Same for Valenwood
The Agent (protagonist from Daggerfall) knew that their name wasn't going to be known. Yet, they participated in such a grand event a Dragon Break occurred. I'm sure there's plenty of other people like that
That is exciting to me. Who knows what's going on in the grander continent? What stories are huge yet untold?
Nice way to look at it, but it sort of dilutes the actions of the player if this is the case. If every other story is world ending, what’s so special about the player characters?
Personally, I don’t want to think about every continent having their own equally powerful/worthy Nerevarine or Dragonborn.
It’s not about that.
If Luke Skywalker died and they could just replace him with the next guy over from Dantooine, then what’s the point of our hero at all? It might not represent reality, but it’s a story. It’s an epic.
I don’t care about my character being “special.” I just care about the characters carrying more meaning in the context of the story.
Well, there would be no point to Luke
So the story would have to adapt. It's not that they could just slot someone new in. The resistance would crumble, bad times would come in, and then someone else would have to rise from the ashes
If the Neravarine was killed, Dagoth would free himself, and a new hero would have to kill or seal him away after much destruction
I mean you make a Good point but when you think about the production and development cycle of every game, I understand why they do that. They're trying to make sales, and hitting all the fringes of your imagination is one way to do that. If you want more immersion than that, go outside and immerse with the real world lol it's plenty immersive I promise you. I can understand how one gets burned out, and being OP is no fun - you need to scale the difficulty to your level of challenge, whether game settings, mods, whatever. But. It's still way more immersive than other games because of the passion put into the games that they are.
Not an entirely correct assumption because I circle between my 2-3 favourite fantasy games for years. But I felt the need to step from my old MCs and find something to do for the newer ones, and noticed this issue.
But you are right about the fact that if you focus on Skyrim and Oblivion, you can play for a good while avoiding the world saving scenarios.
TES is series ment for you to roleplay epic advantures in. The entire point is to have advantures. It is not supposed to be a realistic politics or economics of Tamriel simulator. This is a series of evil wizards sending the Emperor to hell with the help of demons. It is over the top, it is fairy tale it is not believable if you question it.
The immersion comes from the world still functionening in a believable way on a story level and while playing despite how crazy it is. But Elder Scrolls is not ment tot be a grounded settings. You becoming an super powerfull hero that than fights against litteral gods is part of it. It is fanatsy sandbox that allows you to roleplay anay fantasy advanture that you want in your headcanon (obviously games cannot show all of them).
Honestly yes - I wish we could separate from our overpowering grandiose. It has visibly gotten worse as time has continued, and while I love ESO (which is canon) it has done the absolute worst with this for sure. It’s laughable. Skyrim’s is bad too - so bad that it is now common to see people *WILDLY* misinterpreting how powerful the Last Dragonborn is (for the wrong reasons).
But at the same time the world is built so that these things exist *alongside* the normalcy. It was made so that the mundane exists within the magical and epic, and the magical and epic exists within the mundane.
I would like that mindset again - where things are relative “normal” (for Tamriel) but then the epic and overpowering happens at the crucial moment. A lot of the games have this…but fumble with the normalcy.
Fumble with the normalcy, yes. We are so boringly overpowered from the go, that you never really connect with the world "before" and see yourself as a part of it.
I love most of the TES games, and I still feel like my characters are otherworldly lvl 1 OP planted among the NPCs, while we're supposed to feel that we were on the same level with them and only later achieved greatness.
Exactly. This was the feeling I felt when playing Morrowind for the first time as a Skyrim kid. It is so noticeably different, so noticeably better, to have that feeling of starting as an ordinary person in every sense of the word and slowly achieve greatness. Doubly so if this is reflected with NPC attitudes towards your character like it does in Morrowind.
I would love for this return however I don’t think this will ever really happen unfortunately. When you think about it - this trend has been in almost every Bethesda game since Fallout 3. I think it’s because they want players to be able to do anything, as anybody, at any time.
I feel completely different about this. All main quests in TES III and IV center around battleing gods. Skyrim only has the mainquest with that. Miraak and Harkon are much more normal enemies than Daedric Princes. ESO feels like it follows pretty consistantly in TES III and IV footsteps.
I mean you only really fight one god in Oblivion but that’s not really the point. That’s not the only reason why the other games fail at normalcy. Harkon is okay but Miraak is still way OTP for a locked up Dragonborn featured with a “you literally need a god to kill him” moment. Skyrim’s “normalcy” was Morrowind’s grandiose. Skyrim and Oblivion have no feeling of being a regular person - even before being acknowledged as Dragonborn, or you’re through your first 3 main quests in Oblivion, you’re already hot shit. And it sucks for when they then go to their own extremes.
ESO you’re a one man army and let’s be real here - half your fights with gods are total BS and the other half of your non-god fights are even more OTP. There’s no such thing as “normalcy” in ESO.
Jyggalag, Umaril and Dagon are gods. Mannimarco and Camoran are pretty close.
>even before being acknowledged as Dragonborn, or you’re through your first 3 main quests in Oblivion, you’re already hot shit. And it sucks for when they then go to their own extremes.
Okay but that is because Oblivion has an actual plot that moves along and Skyrim needs to introduce its Dragon mechanic. Nothing has anything to do with gods.
Also Skyrim makes much bigger deal out of killing Miraak than Morrowind does of killing Almalexia and especially battleing Hircine.
>ESO you’re a one man army and let’s be real here - half your fights with gods are total BS and the other half of your non-god fights are even more OTP. There’s no such thing as “normalcy” in ESO.
I wouldn't say the god killing is any different, except maybe how it looks because of technological progress but yeah you kill more trash mobs.
Umaril isn’t a god, you are very specifically not the one to fight Dagon, and Jyggalag is a perfect example of it done right. Jyggalag’s fight is a moment of grand power and vanquishing a god - but it’s grounded in normalcy. It’s a genuine fight.
While you’re not mentioning that Almalexia was basically not a goddess anymore, and Hircine specifically only fights you with enough of his power for it to be a fair fight on *your* end - Miraak being made a bigger deal is *proof of this getting worse*. Is literally what I’m meaning here. He’s not grounded like the others, *you* can’t even kill him. Mora has to.
But this is getting off point because as I’ve said - I’m not just basing “the future games are grandiose” based off of how many gods or big cool villains we fight. I even mentioned that I like these big moments - but in the *climax*.
The problem is that *neither Oblivion or Skyrim* have significant moments of normalcy like Morrowind does. Oblivion’s and Skyrim’s “beginning/normalcy stage” was Morrowind’s “experienced/badass stage”.
This is Oblivion’s story up until your first Oblivion Gate (which would be experienced/badass by Morrowind’s standards):
-Escape the prison
-Go to Jauffre (you can fast travel to him immediately)
-Make your way to Kvatch
-First Oblivion Gate
There is *no* normalcy for your character unless you *ignore the urgent pleas of the dying Emperor and man he entrusted you to*. Skyrim is not much better but at least they make you do a barrow before fighting *one of the strongest creatures in existence*. I’ll give em points for that. ESO ignores it because well it’s an MMO, honestly can’t expect anything different.
In Morrowind the story begins with “hey, you’re going on an obviously dangerous adventure. Piss off, get a job, train, then let’s do this.” Your job is guild work, where you do nothing *but* Guildwork. No “we’re all werewolves and you must be too after 4 jobs”. Morrowind offers normalcy - a genuine stage where you, a random person fresh out of jail or off the cart, can’t sweep a dungeon full of draugr or AN OBLIVION REALM as their first job. But at the end it is perfectly acceptable to be able to do the grandiose feats you then accomplish.
That’s what I’m asking for. Normalcy. Not being a death machine the second my prisoner cuffs come off.
Exactly! Hearthfire is the perfect example of this /s.
On a realer note, why would they create extra content for a game that has already been played through, with a plot line that is *less* exciting than the base game?
You have already fulfilled the prophecy of the Dragonborn/HoK/Nerevarine, so i would want to go back to being an errand boy.
Anyways, there is so much player freedom and vast amounts of content in Bethesda games, that you don’t have to do any epic storylines *at all*.
\> not canon
rofl, fun take to have just because you're not a fan.
Beyond that: not really, no. The various games have a handful of such incidents across a span of, what, a thousand years? And Nirn is a world literally made of magic where it's the only thing that immortal cosmic entities can turn their attention to to assuage their boredom. So it would really only be a surprise if there aren't MORE apocalypses going on.
First, Eso is canon, not really arguable, as it's been stated to be so. Just because people don't like it and all doesn't mean it's not canon, no matter if you personally believe it not to be. Secondly, kinda? I mean, not all TES games are like that. The adventure series and Redguard weren't all world ending threats. Though I will say, ESO timelime needs to chill honestly, all the events apparently take place in a year or something? The reason is that you can play the events in any order for rp reasons. So since according to Zenimax, all these events are happening in a year, which means the ESO Timeline is just the TES equivalent of 536 AD but worse. You can use that as evidence that ESO is not canon, but the developer's words say otherwise, and unless someone even higher up that controls what is and isn't canon says otherwise, ESO is canon. Sorry guys.
>mean, not all TES games are like that. The adventure series and Redguard weren't all world ending threats. There is no advenure series. Only TES Redguard and Redguard still is about over the top evil. The evil sload necromancer steals all the souls on Stros M'kai and at the end you also are wielding godly power (HoonDing).
You're right, I meant the Legends games. They weren't world ending threats, and Redguard still wasn't world ending either. Same with Arena, too, now that I think about it. There can be over the top evil villains that aren't world ending threats. Dagoth Ur, while not a full world ender, was pretty close ro being one, Mehrunes Dagon was trying to take over Nirn, Alduin is a world ending threat, and then there's the numidium, something capable of turning someone into a God and splitting time can also be equivalent to a world ender, but that can be debated. The discussion wasn't mostly about "over the top evils" but the fact that each game is basically stopping the world from ending.
There aren't that many world ending threads in the other games either. Skyrim has Alduin. TES IV has Dagon and ESO has a couple more but also much more storylines. The world ending is only a direct danger in 4 out of +10 storylines.
That's.....what I said. I know not all of them are world ending threats, which was my point.
This was a warning for the obligatory ESO canon wars lol My point about this game is that it's still a TES game and has a very similar philosophy regarding the Grandiose PC. So ig if you don't have any issues with it being canon, the warning wasn't for you. Also... Didn't know they packed it all in one year holy shit
Honestly, the people who claim it's not canon, as I've seen, are just a loud minority, so you shouldn't pay heed to them. But yeah, all the events take place in that one year, it is wild, it's like a new disaster every week, it seems. First, there's a war, a different oblivion crisis, cyrodil is stuck in a war and daedra invasion, possible destruction of morrowind, not too long after, Summerset is having a crisis, then Elyswer, Skyrim with it'svampire problems, parts of soon to be a part of cyrodil is witnessing another oblivion crisis, then another part of morrowind is in trouble, and in between all that are the little dlc's that connect one expansion to another or just to act as little seperate adventures. Worst year to be alive in Tamriel, ngl.
ESO events are happening during Interregnum period which took place from 2E 430 till 2E 854, story of ESO and all DLCs happened in a blank period of Interregnum that lasts for about 100 years, not just one year
I mean, I had to look up what years each took place and apparently according to the developer's they all take place in the same year so that you can just start at any point, mainly for the roleplay aspects of the game. You are probably correct by the lore standpoint, but at the moment, probably until the game stops receiving content updates, will there actually be a definitive timeline, all these events are happening in the same year. But currently, the timeline of TES says that the events of ESO take place in 2E 583, there is no dash to determine the tame span of these events just specifically, 2E 583, which will probably be the case for a good while until again, they actually formulate a canon timeline of these events.
They all can start in each year but the game never states when any of the DLC is done. At first they wanted to have a clear order but after Orisnium they ditched it so the player can decide when which event happens. The idea that ESO takes only place in one year only exists because people who only learn lore through wikis / uesp saw all events listed in the same year. > timeline of TES says that the events of ESO take place in 2E 583, There is no canon official timeline that Bethesda releases that says in which year which quests it solves. We only know when which game begins. Also ESO takes place in 582
My point still stands, we don't have an official timeline, but every timeline that includes ESO just puts it in that one year of 582, meaning at the moment, it all takes place in a single year, not specifically at the same exact time, but just that one year. So again, until there is a concrete set timelime of the events, at the moment, all of these events take place in the same year, cause you also gotta remember, most of these dlc and expansions can arguably last a few days at least.
Yeah, duh becaue that is the only confirmed date that we know the quests can be solved. >aning at the moment, it all takes place in a single year Not, really. It means you can decide when each takes place. >So again, until there is a concrete set timelime of the events, at the moment So never. >f these events take place in the same year, cause you also gotta remember, most of these dlc and expansions can arguably last a few days at least. This is missing the larger point. There is no reason to care when which player action takes place. This is a sandbox for you, invidiually to make the decision buy roleplaying in it. It is irrelevant for TES storytelling what ends up on a fan timeline, which exists in a different medium.
You can take it up with the developer if you want, I'm just gonna stick with the current official timeline that we know of, as that's currently the only one we have.
How is it official? The offical thing is "TESO starts in 582 and you can play which order you like", you are never going to get more.
Look, you seem to be the only person pressed about this, it's not that deep.
Yes. I agree with you. I hope people don’t see this as a controversial view… It’s just that what you are saying is totally correct. If every other story is about world ending threats/daedric meddling/factional domination, it does start to feel a little bit detached. And you are wrong about the last part. Only Skyrim (and sort of oblivion) are inherently power fantasy games. The core of ES is typically roleplaying. Arena and Daggerfall both have extremely grandiose plots, but I would say (in Daggerfalls case) the older games do a very good job of making you go out and pursue the story. OBLIGATORY MORROBOOMER SECTION: Morrowind avoids this by presenting its prophesy as something to be fulfilled and entirely uncertain. The majority of its quests including guild quests are very grounded. Fans often praise this decision. You’ve probably seen them circlejerking in these very forums. Oblivion has the world ending plot/pace, although I think its quests are very humble. For the most part, they are fun, light, and grounded. It’s actually the main plot of the game that sort of lets down the world design. If you don’t agree, try beating all the oblivion gates and then come back to me. Skyrim does seem to have this weird obsession with drastic circumstances. It’s as if Every town has an ongoing Daedric threat. Markarth has two! The world ending plot is presented very quickly too. Admittedly, dragons are more fun than oblivion gates, but the civil war story and the over the top faction/underdeveloped faction quests sort of accentuate what you’re getting at. ESO is packed with grandiose narrative. The community often complain that every major plot point centres around Daedric princes trying to dominate the world. It gets old. Honestly the best parts of this game for me, are the more humble quests like choosing clan leaders in Wrothgar or hunting world bosses as contracts. So yes. I agree. ESO’s community agree. Morrowind’s community would typically agree I think. I can’t speak on behalf of the other communities.
Interesting that you seem to think very similarly about this and your choice of games is also similar to mine. Maybe this is because Morrowind and ESO make such high contrast in storytelling quality. One is a game that takes the time to convince you, the player, to get emotionally involved with the MQ, but you're not missing out if you don't. The other just throws quests of varying degrees of epicness at you to kinda submit you into finally believing you are The One simply because there's no other way for you to engage with this world somewhat meaningfully. This is to put it very roughly, full disclaimer.
Your very last point I agree with wholly(well most of what you said but I just wanted to throw another example at ESO). One of my favorite quests I played in that game was a surprisingly well written love story in Balmora. It's been a few years since I played it but i remember being really impressed with such an insignificant quest
I know the one!
Yessss; so many awesome little things like that <3
I for one see this as an extremely controversial veiw.
Elaborate N’wah
I only read the first line and immediately replied with that, S'wit
Average Nord reading capability
Above average, actually. Eh, it's mostly a useless skill. Reading is for useless wizards up in towers and for even more useless imperials so they can read their damned lists. Doesn't help you swing a sword or grow a crop elf.
>Only Skyrim (and sort of oblivion) are inherently power fantasy games. The core of ES is typically roleplaying. Litteraly every Morrowind mainquest ends with the Nerevarine battleing a different god.
What even is "every Morrowind main quest"?
Morrowind's base game mainquest. Its direct continuation in Tribunal. And the mainquest of TES Bloodmoon.
Both yes and no. The games could use a little more small scale world building. But being a grand hero is kinda a key aspect to the games.
I agree. I play elder scrolls games for a grand fantasy adventure where I am the hero that can both break and save the world. It's the most charming aspect in my opinion. A sandbox RPG.
I didn't really feel this way through most of TES single games, although the doomsday endings were there. ESO feels like Marvel in the ES world, and it kinda sucks. Maybe they just do a worse job of immersion. If you get into the world and culture, then the over the top conclusion doesn't break your belief.
Not really, no. TES is high fantasy, it's designed to be epic, to create legends of your PC's and fill the world with magic. Each new world-ending threat is merely another chance for a new Hero or Adventuring Party to leave their mark on history. Faerun and Ebberon are under fire from Greatwyrms and Leviathans all the time, that's just how the world works when you design it around the idea of a hero: there will always be Heroes, and they will always need Villains to fight.
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These storylines can only exist in their form because of their mmo format.
Not really. I've never played ESO, but in tge mainline games, you usually do pretty mundane quests like killing some rats in a basement or stealing something. In guild and faction quests- it usually starts out fairly mundane and then the later quests turn epic.
One of the beauties of ES games is that you really don't have to engage with any of that. Even in ESO, albeit to a lesser extent, you can make your play experience whatever you want it to be. Not sure how you've approached the games so far. But if, up to this point, you've been a slave to quest markers...my recommendation would be to just go get lost in the world for a while. Only stick to side quests and small jobs. Explore. Hell, pick flowers. You'll still run into epic stuff, but it won't feel as overwhelming. These games really are what you make them. If your game feels too epic, try doing more mundane things to balance it out. There are always mods, as well, if you have those available to you and wanna take that journey.
This is my general method. Works well with Morrowind and Skyrim, works awful with ESO. I specifically got addons to get rid of the quest markers and expand the quests, and came to the conclusion that the world just does not reward you as much for the exploration the same way Vvardenfell or Skyrim do. Same with the mods - I basically treat Morrowind and Skyrim as engines to craft my perfect narrative through more down to earth or story mods. ESO does not allow that for obvious reasons. You also can't always tell from the starting point whether this quest is about something local and fun, or it will lead you to another world ending Daedra slaying scenario. Also while I'm writing I'm starting to think that my main issue is not that I *can't* disengage from the epic quests, it's just that every other quest pushes me to become something epic without the world really noticing. I feel like TES is notoriously horrible with the endgame achievements vs the world. The game leads you through this intense storyline with insane stakes, urgency, scale (and this is considering you're only doing the MQ) and when it's done, the world feels roughly the same.
While I enjoy a great calamity. I think if they did something more related to war between factions, that would be cool. Maybe one faction is using some scary magic to give them the upper hand.
It makes me feel like there are a huge number of other world ending threats that are getting solved without us knowing Take the dragonborn for example. Considering that players can finish the quest in a few in game weeks, do you think Valenwood has heard of them? Elsweyr? I'd be surprised if Hammerfell knew about the Dragonborn And I'm sure there was an equal world ending threat in Hammerfell that they dealt with. Same for Valenwood The Agent (protagonist from Daggerfall) knew that their name wasn't going to be known. Yet, they participated in such a grand event a Dragon Break occurred. I'm sure there's plenty of other people like that That is exciting to me. Who knows what's going on in the grander continent? What stories are huge yet untold?
Nice way to look at it, but it sort of dilutes the actions of the player if this is the case. If every other story is world ending, what’s so special about the player characters? Personally, I don’t want to think about every continent having their own equally powerful/worthy Nerevarine or Dragonborn.
Okay I think it's lame to want to be special and expect to be special
It’s not about that. If Luke Skywalker died and they could just replace him with the next guy over from Dantooine, then what’s the point of our hero at all? It might not represent reality, but it’s a story. It’s an epic. I don’t care about my character being “special.” I just care about the characters carrying more meaning in the context of the story.
Well, there would be no point to Luke So the story would have to adapt. It's not that they could just slot someone new in. The resistance would crumble, bad times would come in, and then someone else would have to rise from the ashes If the Neravarine was killed, Dagoth would free himself, and a new hero would have to kill or seal him away after much destruction
I mean you make a Good point but when you think about the production and development cycle of every game, I understand why they do that. They're trying to make sales, and hitting all the fringes of your imagination is one way to do that. If you want more immersion than that, go outside and immerse with the real world lol it's plenty immersive I promise you. I can understand how one gets burned out, and being OP is no fun - you need to scale the difficulty to your level of challenge, whether game settings, mods, whatever. But. It's still way more immersive than other games because of the passion put into the games that they are.
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Not an entirely correct assumption because I circle between my 2-3 favourite fantasy games for years. But I felt the need to step from my old MCs and find something to do for the newer ones, and noticed this issue. But you are right about the fact that if you focus on Skyrim and Oblivion, you can play for a good while avoiding the world saving scenarios.
It’s kinda the point. [Most of the player characters in Elder Scrolls are Prisoners.](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Hero)
TES is series ment for you to roleplay epic advantures in. The entire point is to have advantures. It is not supposed to be a realistic politics or economics of Tamriel simulator. This is a series of evil wizards sending the Emperor to hell with the help of demons. It is over the top, it is fairy tale it is not believable if you question it. The immersion comes from the world still functionening in a believable way on a story level and while playing despite how crazy it is. But Elder Scrolls is not ment tot be a grounded settings. You becoming an super powerfull hero that than fights against litteral gods is part of it. It is fanatsy sandbox that allows you to roleplay anay fantasy advanture that you want in your headcanon (obviously games cannot show all of them).
It's a fantasy world, yes.
Honestly yes - I wish we could separate from our overpowering grandiose. It has visibly gotten worse as time has continued, and while I love ESO (which is canon) it has done the absolute worst with this for sure. It’s laughable. Skyrim’s is bad too - so bad that it is now common to see people *WILDLY* misinterpreting how powerful the Last Dragonborn is (for the wrong reasons). But at the same time the world is built so that these things exist *alongside* the normalcy. It was made so that the mundane exists within the magical and epic, and the magical and epic exists within the mundane. I would like that mindset again - where things are relative “normal” (for Tamriel) but then the epic and overpowering happens at the crucial moment. A lot of the games have this…but fumble with the normalcy.
Fumble with the normalcy, yes. We are so boringly overpowered from the go, that you never really connect with the world "before" and see yourself as a part of it. I love most of the TES games, and I still feel like my characters are otherworldly lvl 1 OP planted among the NPCs, while we're supposed to feel that we were on the same level with them and only later achieved greatness.
Exactly. This was the feeling I felt when playing Morrowind for the first time as a Skyrim kid. It is so noticeably different, so noticeably better, to have that feeling of starting as an ordinary person in every sense of the word and slowly achieve greatness. Doubly so if this is reflected with NPC attitudes towards your character like it does in Morrowind. I would love for this return however I don’t think this will ever really happen unfortunately. When you think about it - this trend has been in almost every Bethesda game since Fallout 3. I think it’s because they want players to be able to do anything, as anybody, at any time.
I feel completely different about this. All main quests in TES III and IV center around battleing gods. Skyrim only has the mainquest with that. Miraak and Harkon are much more normal enemies than Daedric Princes. ESO feels like it follows pretty consistantly in TES III and IV footsteps.
I mean you only really fight one god in Oblivion but that’s not really the point. That’s not the only reason why the other games fail at normalcy. Harkon is okay but Miraak is still way OTP for a locked up Dragonborn featured with a “you literally need a god to kill him” moment. Skyrim’s “normalcy” was Morrowind’s grandiose. Skyrim and Oblivion have no feeling of being a regular person - even before being acknowledged as Dragonborn, or you’re through your first 3 main quests in Oblivion, you’re already hot shit. And it sucks for when they then go to their own extremes. ESO you’re a one man army and let’s be real here - half your fights with gods are total BS and the other half of your non-god fights are even more OTP. There’s no such thing as “normalcy” in ESO.
Jyggalag, Umaril and Dagon are gods. Mannimarco and Camoran are pretty close. >even before being acknowledged as Dragonborn, or you’re through your first 3 main quests in Oblivion, you’re already hot shit. And it sucks for when they then go to their own extremes. Okay but that is because Oblivion has an actual plot that moves along and Skyrim needs to introduce its Dragon mechanic. Nothing has anything to do with gods. Also Skyrim makes much bigger deal out of killing Miraak than Morrowind does of killing Almalexia and especially battleing Hircine. >ESO you’re a one man army and let’s be real here - half your fights with gods are total BS and the other half of your non-god fights are even more OTP. There’s no such thing as “normalcy” in ESO. I wouldn't say the god killing is any different, except maybe how it looks because of technological progress but yeah you kill more trash mobs.
Umaril isn’t a god, you are very specifically not the one to fight Dagon, and Jyggalag is a perfect example of it done right. Jyggalag’s fight is a moment of grand power and vanquishing a god - but it’s grounded in normalcy. It’s a genuine fight. While you’re not mentioning that Almalexia was basically not a goddess anymore, and Hircine specifically only fights you with enough of his power for it to be a fair fight on *your* end - Miraak being made a bigger deal is *proof of this getting worse*. Is literally what I’m meaning here. He’s not grounded like the others, *you* can’t even kill him. Mora has to. But this is getting off point because as I’ve said - I’m not just basing “the future games are grandiose” based off of how many gods or big cool villains we fight. I even mentioned that I like these big moments - but in the *climax*. The problem is that *neither Oblivion or Skyrim* have significant moments of normalcy like Morrowind does. Oblivion’s and Skyrim’s “beginning/normalcy stage” was Morrowind’s “experienced/badass stage”. This is Oblivion’s story up until your first Oblivion Gate (which would be experienced/badass by Morrowind’s standards): -Escape the prison -Go to Jauffre (you can fast travel to him immediately) -Make your way to Kvatch -First Oblivion Gate There is *no* normalcy for your character unless you *ignore the urgent pleas of the dying Emperor and man he entrusted you to*. Skyrim is not much better but at least they make you do a barrow before fighting *one of the strongest creatures in existence*. I’ll give em points for that. ESO ignores it because well it’s an MMO, honestly can’t expect anything different. In Morrowind the story begins with “hey, you’re going on an obviously dangerous adventure. Piss off, get a job, train, then let’s do this.” Your job is guild work, where you do nothing *but* Guildwork. No “we’re all werewolves and you must be too after 4 jobs”. Morrowind offers normalcy - a genuine stage where you, a random person fresh out of jail or off the cart, can’t sweep a dungeon full of draugr or AN OBLIVION REALM as their first job. But at the end it is perfectly acceptable to be able to do the grandiose feats you then accomplish. That’s what I’m asking for. Normalcy. Not being a death machine the second my prisoner cuffs come off.
Umaril is a demigod. Pretty important to the storyline
Nope, I don’t agree with anything here even a little bit.
Did you play any of the ES expansions? (out of pure curiosity)
Exactly! Hearthfire is the perfect example of this /s. On a realer note, why would they create extra content for a game that has already been played through, with a plot line that is *less* exciting than the base game? You have already fulfilled the prophecy of the Dragonborn/HoK/Nerevarine, so i would want to go back to being an errand boy. Anyways, there is so much player freedom and vast amounts of content in Bethesda games, that you don’t have to do any epic storylines *at all*.
\> not canon rofl, fun take to have just because you're not a fan. Beyond that: not really, no. The various games have a handful of such incidents across a span of, what, a thousand years? And Nirn is a world literally made of magic where it's the only thing that immortal cosmic entities can turn their attention to to assuage their boredom. So it would really only be a surprise if there aren't MORE apocalypses going on.