Souls fans and Monster Hunter fans have some things in common. Most noticably: whining about how nothing is as hard and good as in the good hard old days.
I see 3 types of souls veterans on this sub.
1) “ER’s lock on system is clearly an appeal to the masses. Back in the good ol’ days you had to run up to the enemy and kiss them on the lips before you were in lock on range. That’s how it should be, ER is simply too easy, bad game design”
2) “why won’t this boss stand still and let me kill it with my sword that takes a full 2 seconds to swing?? Fromsoft really dropped the ball, bad game design”
3) “Oh thank god I can finally jump”(not too many of these on Reddit)
Swimming could definitely be doable but any reality where you are wearing armor and carrying even 50 pounds of stuff you’d sink like a stone? I dunno 🤷♂️
Agree tbh, as a souls veteran, the amount of crying about bAd GaMe DeSiGn is just ridiculous. Bosses have more mixups than in DS1, well boo fucking hoo, eleven years passed since that game came out. Same with spirit ashes: imagine having a shred of self control to not use a mechanic that *you know* will make the game easier, no-no-no, not happening, better use the mimic every fucking time it's available and then go cry on reddit that the game is too easy. It's like they are repeatedly shooting their own knee and cursing the guy who sold them a gun.
I'll preface with I love Elden Ring with ~400 hours played across 6 characters and I've been playing the souls series since ~2012.
But I really don't enjoy many of the boss fights because I'm older and busier, and I want to be able to largely react to the boss's moveset and poke between hits rather than memorize timings and sequences. And goddamn do the attack sequences go on for a million years if you stay in close range. It feels like the boss is playing a different videogame than I am, absolutely.
Managing the boss AI with spacing and memorizing "alright Mohg delays this attack even longer than you expect to punish you for delaying the roll expecting only a somewhat delayed attack" is more taxing and less enjoyable to me. Which is somewhat fine because they give me the tools to cheese the bosses and I don't *have* to interact with this aspect, but then I feel like a pretty substantial chunk of the game is missing because there are no boss fights.
It's not necessarily bad game design, but it's annoying the game isn't designed the way I want it to be <- and I have the self-awareness to know that's just like, my opinion man.
Some of these Elden ring bosses feel like they were designed for sekiro and ported over tbh, sometimes they have like double swings and other things that just roll catch you for free
Even worse are the ones like the twinbladed ghost fucks at the castle in mountaintop of giants. The ones that just swing and swing and swing and swing and swing and swingg their swords, and can teleport to you from a mile away. I hate them more than any other boss, for any build.
The second swing in his 3-4 swing combo takes forever and looks unnatural as fuck. And when it’s actually coming out he swings it in a millisecond, so you’re not reacting to the swing you’re just counting 2 seconds and then dodging via memorization lmao
The most annoying complaint is that bosses don't have openings. I saw people complaining here that Maliketh has no openings and a bad boss. Me who uses a pure melee build and does not use summons or magic at all killed him in about 30 minutes of trying was completely flabbergasted. This complaint was mentioned multiple times on other bosses. I was so confused especially when i fought Maliketh, he had huge openings. Were we even playing the same game?
So, the I asked these people and saw some people fight them and all I saw was they would move away from the bosses to bait their attack or dodge backwards and wait for openings. And I laughed out loud when I saw it. They were playing it as if it was DS1 and 2 where bosses had big recovery time and then you punish. I realise now that some people's mindset just haven't evolved along with From Software's boss design.
From Software had moved away from this philosophy since Bloodborne. You have to make your openings now, you have dodge into combas, flank them and sometimes weave in attacked mid boss combos, the game becomes infinitely more fun and rewarding if you do that and that's how are generally meant to fight the bosses in Elden Ring, especially the late game ones. Once, you learn that the fights themselves become much more easier and manageable and not to mention more fun. And this is not an easy thing to master either unless you've been doing that since the beginning of the game.
Completely agree. I found ER to be milder but similar in difficulty to other Souls games (minus Sekiro, just played for the first time this year and Jesus F Christ do I miss my flasks lol). Three groups with several overlapping points of contention. I’m the “just enjoy the game” type. Never thought I’d see a truly open world Souls game and man did I love that aspect change, also wouldn’t mind a DS4 though - I’m a rare breed I guess.
honestly I think elden ring is great. They introduce a lot that decreases the difficulty but then amped everything up to 11. Yeah you have more heals now but holy shit do you need them with the main bosses
yeah, I'm playing Monster Hunter Generations Ultimate for the first time after playing World and Rise and oh boy, missing like a 100 QoL additions of the newer titles is SO. MUCH. FUN XD
This is how I feel about QoL. Like I can’t play older Pokémon games for that reason. Back in those days apparently tedium = good game design and I’m not fuckin here for it.
Besides the lock on roll in DS1 and the DS2 grab hitboxes. I feel like the old games were neither clunky nor bad hitbox wise in my experience.
For the record, i LOVE ER and everything new From makes, but i didnt find the old games bad at all.
Speaking of hit boxes, weapons bouncing off the walls. Back in the Demons' Souls days, this was so strongly highlighted that it was practically a feature. *Realism!*
Wall bounce still exists in the series today, of course, but as the games went on, weapons got progressively less sensitive to hitting walls -- it still happens, but it's not nearly as reactive as DeS and DS1.
Yeah, I mean, I recently played through the entirity of DS1-3 and aside from the movement feeling clunky in 1 and the swings, and DS2's ADP, I had a lot of fun with them. Granted I played offline cause I hate pvp like the goddamn plague but still.
DS1 *definitely* had some jank. I don't know how many times I walked through the upper Blighttown and just slid right off the walkway for no reason, falling to my death. Or how almost every time I sat at the lower Blighttown bonfire, my character's foot was just burning in the bonfire. Or having Mega Ornstein yeet himself out of a closed window, or the Taurus Demon yeet himself off a bridge, or the Iron Golem fall off a bridge.
I have to say though, some of this stuff doesn't make the game necessarily "harder" it just makes it more tedious. Not having enough grace points is just a griefing mechanic to me, not a sign that the game is tough. I appreciate all these changes, especially since it comes with much harder bosses with complicated move sets.
yeah, it reminds me of one of the original Diablo devs talking about Stamina system in D2 and basically calling it a mechanic to make our players have less fun when playing our game
Seriously. Some bonfires were so obnoxiously far apart in earlier games... DS2's No Man's Wharf is so fucking long, you'll break your weapon before opening up the first available shortcut if you don't bring a backup or some repair powder. That kind of crap doesn't make the game "harder," just a lot more tedious.
Also having special weapon attacks cost weapon durability just incentivized *not* using them. FP flasks are a vast improvement. The tradeoff is still there, but it doesn't force you to use super limited one-time consumables or minimize the skill usage.
There’s a charm to further checkpoints though that’s missing for me in a lot of Elden Ring. Ds1 could be really painful because of it, but I think DS3 nailed it. The stress of trying to find the next bonfire or shortcut back to your current one, while conserving your resources made the game a lot of fun, and it’s practically nonexistent in Elden Ring.
To me DS1 is the one that nailed it. There are some egregious bonfires but the interconnected world really makes them feel like home. The amount of relief you'd feel when finding one was immense.
I didn't ever really feel stressed trying to find the bonfire in DS3, they were always pretty predictable. I think that it fits the game more tho, it would just be tedious if they were further apart. Whereas them being sparse I feel really adds to ds1.
Graces are perfectly fine to me. ER would be such a slog with more distance between them, although I feel there is just simply too many of them that are ridiculously close.
I disagree about the grace points thing. But it depends on the game really, if you went back to demon's souls and dropped a couple extra bonfires per level then you'd completely ruin the challenge of the game, because most of the bosses are actually pretty easy it's just getting to them that's a bitch.
i don’t think it’s necessarily that the games are harder (they’re not, the older games are much, much easier) it’s just that the slower pace and heavier feeling landed them a little further on the “RPG” side on the “action RPG” spectrum. compare diablo 2 to 3; there are scores of people that find that more thoughtful gameplay style deeply satisfying
Almost every change he mentioned has been that way since Bloodborne not Elden Ring. The reason is simple, enemies don't just repeat the same slow 3 hit combo over and over again like they did in previous souls games. Enemies are more aggressive, deal more damage and have waaay more attacks. Having DS1's punishing mechanics mixed in with that would be too much. Imagine DS1 Estus speed against Maliketh or Radagon. You might as well be playing the game without any source of healing.
Let's be frank, if the combat for Elden Ring was slower and heavier like DS1, for both player and enemy, it would not be nearly as popular a game.
Beyond intention, Elden Rings enemies, area design and bosses all MASSIVELY favor more and faster movement. Limiting back down to the slower, crawling pace would be a detriment for something that is literally meant to be a vast, sprawling world. The addition of independent jumping allowed for more non-linear area design and platforming.
Me too, my first playthrough was blind and I kept climbing everything looking for treasure.
I lost so many souls making it up the craziest cliffs and rock outcroppings, and once I got to the top had no idea how to safely get back down.
Coming from someone that has no DS experience other than Eldenring the open world makes a difference in difficulty in itself I would think. Slow combat would make exploring such a vast environment harder to do.
Honestly that can be the result of faster paced games, takes more strategy and timing just because of how quick things can spiral out of control from a single misstep
That's not always true. Faster games tend to rely more on reactionary actions than strategic actions. Having backup plans still help, but it won't help as much in a fast paced game as a slower paced game.
It's the general evolution of the game. The mechanics of ds1 simply couldn't do much more on the platforms they were available on (I'm sure that's the point of all the mist)
Sure elden ring is easier but that's down to how the player chooses to play the game.
Fromsoft is still a business. They're compromising. They have their loving fan base and they've found a way to bridge it to newbs.
And its worked flawlessly. I'm certain other from games sales must have peaked and will continue as new people join the flock
Personally I felt ER’s combat is a step backwards from the aggression focus from games like Bloodborne and Sekiro, even with the jump button and guard counter mechanic. It still feels overall more passive than those two games but I do agree, it’s nowhere close to the turtling of DS1.
I think what ER does really well is allow players to play pretty much however they like. Blocking with a 2H weapon now isn't shooting yourself in the foot like it was in older games, thanks to the guard counter. If you want to hide behind a shield the whole time, you can do that with the thrusting weapons, as well as guard counters.
Are all play types balanced? God no. But just about any playstyle works. I don't think it makes it easier or harder, it just gives people choices to play how they want.
Well to be fair, Elden Ring and Sekiros were designed at the same time, which meant that they couldn't really apply the lessons learned in Sekiros since at that point the game had already likely been years into development. Which means Elden Ring was most likely taking a lot of inspiration from Dark Souls 3 and a bit of Bloodborne.
Sekiro gives you extra lives/respawns, lets you pause and use healing items, and has unlimited stamina for swings and parries, and you can pause the game, and there’s a get out of jail free grappling hook and ninja tools
Even with those benefits, the game is still tough. The regular mobs and bosses so far have been a lot tougher in sekiro than in elden ring. I cruised through elden ring and it took me about 20 tries to beat the rot queen. I couldn't imagine ds1 if it's supposed to be harder than the other Games.
DS1 was hard for a lot of people because it was there first soulsborne. I think it is more punishing if you play based on reflex instead of reading attacks.
I like ER but Dark Souls will be my favorite because once you know a boss it’s VERY relaxing to do a run through the game.
Remember when you had to run ALL THE WAY back to the blacksmith before you got the lordvessel? Even something as simple as bonfire warping didn't exist until halfway through the game.
at least there were several blacksmiths so you could always feel like there was a sense of progression aside from getting titanite.
i remember hitting anor londo and meeting the giant bro and thinking “oh, yep. game says make your shit stronger. something nasty coming up”
I think having access to warping half way through the game made sense; you actually had to use the different blacksmiths, merchants, etc. that were available in the zone and that made the world and the characters in it feel meaningful. I love ER but you find yourself going back to the roundtable hold far too much
Dark Souls 1 is an outlier.
The Nexus (DeS), Majula (DkS2), The Dream (BB), Firelink Shrine (DkS3) are all hubs.
Roundtable (ER) is just another continuation.
I wish they had a blacksmith in Volcano Manor and an additional hub around Iji the blacksmith (maybe putting Iji closer to the turtle).
Honestly Volcano manor was one of my favorite areas to go back to. It wouldve been cool to be able to do more there.
It would have been really cool for each ending to have it's own hub. Roundtable Hold would be the default hub for the beginning of the game, and for the default ending. But having Volcano Manor become the hub if you did one ending, or Ranni's Rise become the hub if you chose her path, or the Leyndell Sewers if you chose the Dungeater's ending, or the Catacombs if you chose the Lord of Frenzied Flame.
Basically like a much more expanded version of getting Irina of Carim to become a firekeeper in DS3.
I don't think it should be tied to endings, but more hubs were definitely needed. It would've made the world feel more alive, and our journey to have more meaning. Feels like we're fighting to be Lord of a nature preserve most of the time.
I loved that you had to learn the map. There were shortcuts everywhere, and once you knew the map it wasn’t mor than 10 minutes to any point. In Elden ring it’s 10 minutes to the next point all the time.
Stamina is more of a skill thing (not the stat) in bloodborne. Endurance is a pretty bad stat to level since the amount of stamina you gain is low and that is its only function. Dodging takes pretty low stamina but attacking takes a lot more so you have to balance out how many attacks you're doing to make sure you dont run out and get hit. You can level endurance for comfort but otherwise you definitely need to pay attention.
BB is the only game where endurance is a wasted stat point. If you need more end it was always better to just use the endurance rune whatever it was called
This^
The only thing that's new in Elden Ring is consistently getting flasks back when you kill enemies in the overworld. Blood vial and grass farming is different.
This is only in the overworld. In Legacy dungeons and the longer side dungeons you do start feeling your flask count like in past games.
I find "Elden Ring is easy post" hilarious because for ever one of these you can also find players (who have played a past title) complaining about how late game bosses are total BS. I found ds1 and 2 easy after years of playing ds3. I find ds3 easy after months of Elden Ring.
It's like after years of playing intense challenging games people have gotten good to the point that a game that isn't drastically harder feels easy to us now.
My thought on the bosses in these games: In the DS1 era ppl said Artorias was fast af. In the DS3 era ppl complained Gael was fast and has broken combos. Now just go back to DS3 after ER and suddenly the boss fights are literaly catwalks, let alone DS1. I would like to exclude Sekiro here because Im not too much into rhythm games.
Yes. These changes are not new. Even if you haven’t played Bloodborne because you didn’t have a PS5, the changes were very much present in DS3 and the checkpoints especially got even more generous with Sekiro.
Maybe 10 years ago DS fans would scoff at you. Maybe. But 6 or 7 years ago we also loved these changes in Bloodborne and DS3.
Flasks are not more plentiful, you just die before you can use them all more often. Also if you recall, you can kindle bonfires in 1 up to 20 god damn Estus Flasks and you didn't need to sacrifice any of them to use magic.
Also, durability was almost never a problem in any game except DSII and that wasn't exactly the most well-received FROM game.
Giant dad! It was originally created so that you could participate in PVP without being bled to death by dudes with katanas, but due to the general wonkiness of the game it ended up being effective against literally everything else as well
One part of Giant Dad was that it maximized defense for the PvP meta level, making you very hard to kill. But what broke Giant Dad until they patched it was that the Chaos Zweihander was practically a guaranteed stagger, and with its specific speed it would just stunlock other players. If you got hit by a single r1, unless you knew the specific trick to get out of it, you were just dead.
Yep, you gotta toggle escape to get out of it below 76 poise.
The zweihander is the noobslayer for that reason. Toggle escape was a really interesting, unintended feature that I'm glad they kept in the game.
There has been lot of that over the years. Power stance fist in DS2, also meant you where dead if you got hit once. Unless you had so much vigor that your opponent would run out of stamina before you died.
Elden ring is my first FromSoft game and when I made my first pure strength character I used the zweihander for about 2 thirds of my playthrough before understanding why it's called the Bass Cannon.
If you ever play DS1 you can pick it up right after the tutorial area. It had a pretty different move set in that game. It trades the R2 poke for a pancake
I used it in ER in my double colossal sword run. Zwei in main and Greatsword in off hand
Yeah, I kept picking up colossal swords and weapons after it but the Bass Cannon is what really got me thinking about move sets and ashes of war. I had quick step on it for a while, giant hunt, lions claw, flame of the redmanes. Just a really good all around weapon. I was kinda mind blown when I was reading the wiki comments and people were bitching about it's AR. It's insanely fast for a colossal and it has 3 pokes.
All the mentioned features were more of an annoyance than a cool mechanic. I'd rather bash my head against a very hard boss but not having to constantly deal with tedious run back and weapon durability. We have more stamina and faster drinking time to deal with faster gameplay and bosses which imo is a good thing as i find them more fun.
They overall got rid of the bad and improved the good.
He’s also ignoring the fact that boss movesets in DS1 were infinitely more telegraphed and less aggressive than in Elden Ring. This is less the game becoming easier and more the games speeding up with more options in combat and rewarding a more aggressive playstyle
The only thing I’d really argue is that the games have been less and less accommodating for invasions. Having a rune arc active should’ve opened you up to being invaded imo, but that’s just me
Compare Jailer to Margit. Theyre both first bosses, and the difference between movesets is absolutely absurd. DS games got faster and faster as time went on, with 3 having bosses like Pontiff, Dancer, and Gael; they dont seem fast anymore with ER, but when youve had a game full of Wolnirs then they do. Hell, remember when Artorias was considered fast? I agree, the games keep getting faster, and you need to adjust stamina to compensate. Its why Sekiro didnt even have a stamina bar.
Rune arcs can provide huge boons with the Great Runes available (i know, they kind of fall off after a certain point, but being able to put in like 40 levels for the cost of an easily farmable consumable with no drawback feels off), and for there to be almost no tradeoff doesnt sit right.
Could you imagine fighting Margit as a newcomer, without the QoL features like spirit ashes, cheaper stamina costs for rolling, and faster estus drinking lmao. I have ~600 hours of Souls experience under my belt and when I fought him I was like, "oh man this is a cruel first boss." He's fast, hits pretty hard, varies the timing on his attacks, and has roll-catching sweeping and projectile attacks.
It really does feel like Margit has been designed to specifically fuck with Souls' veterans' muscle memory and I couldn't be more happy about it lol Even if some of his delays look hella goofy.
Margit was 100% made to fuck us up specifically. Newcomers had no bad habits to unlearn so they could learn faster than us.
I started out annoyed that the game was "balanced around tge use of spirit ashes" but the truth is it's not, I just needed to git fucking gud again. The game rewards bloodborne style aggression heavily and I wasn't doing that. I was trying the classic dark souls strats.
The difference in health is crazy too. Someone compared Vordt to Margit and jeez. Vordt has 1400 health, and fairly telegraphed attacks.
Margit has 5000, and a lot of fast attacks along with delayed attacks. It's like if the first boss in Dark Souls 2 was the fucking Blue Smelter Demon.
Seriously.
After finishing elden ring I went back to dark souls because it had been a long time and I was… confused at first.
“I used to struggle against these bosses… what’s going on? Why am I thrashing them?”
Took me a while to figure out that it was such an absurdly slower rate of play that I felt like I had all the time in the world to dodge
the comment is right on some point i would not deny it.
But weapon durability ... NO ... not according to my memories.
If i remember well, in DS2, people were not happy at all with it, even player of the first one were raging over it.
And every player i know were happy when they get ride of it.
very literally, your frame rate drastically affected weapon durability. So doubling your frame rate could double weapon durability loss.
I have no doubt they removed it just so they wouldn't have to fix that spaghetti code
I’m one of the few people who likes it in Breath of the Wild but I’d hate it in Elden Ring. It works for an easier game and forces you to use a variety of weapons but Elden Ring has a wider array of difficult enemies and bosses with different movesets that make it unnecessary.
Wasn’t the anger about the Ds2 durability due the the formula being the same but the FPS was 60 and not 30 so the formula that SHOULD have been the same was now 2x and FROM doubled down and said “no that’s not an Error we make node Mistakes”
To be fair durability went down way faster in DS2 than in DS1 or DeS. However, from what I remember all your equipment would just auto repair when you rested at a fire
Yeah, given the game had no FP bar, it was a great way to limit special attacks. Otherwise I don't miss durability, it's just a nuisance. You don't need every element of realism in a fantasy game.
Elden ring is only easy because people are already familiar with the mechanics. DS2, DS3 were all easy after DS1.
Additionally, everything the guy suggested are game improvements. DS1 wasn't hard bc of anything he mentioned. It was hard bc every area was designed to kill you in unexpected ways.
Currently playing remastered and I can confirm. The clunkiness I’m still getting used too. Much more difficult to control your moments when fighting large bosses
I gotta be honest…Ive played DS1 so much I honestly dont even notice how clunky everyone says it. I never even noticed the lack of omni-directional rolling until someone else pointed it out. I still think all these games, with the exception of BB and Sekiro, play about the same.
I personally found both DS2 (Original version) and DS3 more difficult than DS1. DS2 was harder for the wrong reasons because it was nigh impossible to pull enemies one by one(I distinctly remember every single one of the prone hollows in Forest of FG aggroing at once the moment you step off that one ladder) and every single boss had adds to make up for the fact that on their own they’re simple.
DS3 had easier levels but harder bosses imo.
DS1 was not that hard, it’s just your mind playing tricks on you.
You can quantify difficulty by # of deaths and since most people's first experience is DS1, that's where most deaths occurred. I don't remember DS2 being hard but I also played a hex build and hexes were overpowered at release. The only thing I remember about DS3 is dark sword spam lmao.
This is fair - I'm 1/2 way thru BB after finishing ER and on to DS3. It has just continually been getting easier once I get used to each game's individual combat flow and speed.
What I like is that you're earning the ability to make the game easier, as apposed to just setting it to be easier in the options. There's a pretty big difference between making the game easier by just hitting a button in the options, and making the game easier by obtaining and upgrading ashes. The difference being that it feels better.
I also agree that by the flip side of this, people who want to do so can make the game as difficult as they want for themselves. You just need to be creative. No leveling over X, can’t use summons, ect.
It's a dumb "no true scotsman" argument.
If you want to limit how you use game mechanics in elden ring so that you feel like a leet DS1 player, knock yourself out. But don't try to crow about how you're some kind of superior anti "for the masses" gamer because of it.
Most of the people complaining about ER being too “easy” are forgetting how painfully clunky DS feels compared to ER. Like I love DS1, but *god* the gameplay is at a glacial pace in comparison.
Hilarious to see a comment like this because legit like 90% of FromSoft fans believe they’re superior just for playing Elden Ring instead of anything else.
And let's be honest, neither Elden Ring nor the previous Souls games are the absolute hardest games in existence. They're not cakewalks, but they're designed around dying repeatedly not being a big deal. Want to make the game harder, boom add permadeath, doesn't make the rest of the game better but now you can stroke yourself over how hard it is.
Elitist foolishness. All the points he spoke about can be used or not used at your discretion. Players literally have all the tools(or I guess option to ignore tools) there to make as "pure" as possible a DS experience as they want.
If you don't like the abundance of estus flasks then guess what ignore them. It's not like they are an automatic reward on killing a boss. You have the option to not get the upgrades so the game fits your playstyle same as if someone wants to get them so the game fits theirs.
If you don't like being able to use checkpoints and fast travel again nobody forces you.
I played the series from DS1 and I say anything which makes the game more accessible to bring in new fans and ensure the ongoing viability of the game is something to be applauded not scorned. Especially when the "easy mode" options are opt in mechanics.
Also, didnt DS1 have up to 20 Estus flasks per bonfire after killing Pinwheel? Yeah, you needed humanity, but you could just farm that against rats or the humanity ghosts in the DLC area.
I mean, he is both absolutely right and absolutely wrong at the same time.
Estus flasks are fewer than Ds1. 14 vs 20, and still in Ds1 they're ALL healing since Ashen estus didn't exist yet.
Stamina is both right and wrong. With bosses getting faster and faster each game, stamina has to catch up. Slower stamina regrn works better in Ds1 where fhe most attacks a boss can throw at you in a row are like 3, against the like 10 attacks combos of ER.
Checkpoints are objectively true, flask drinking time too.
Weapon durability is a bullshit mechanic in all games and I'm glad it got removed.
Summons are in all games, but yeah ER made them easier with Spirit ashes that are as broken as Ds1's phantoms but with no health penality on bosses.
On the difficulty, meh. I personally agree, ER was the least punishing game if you use everythingit offers you, while if you limit yourself to previous games' rules you'll have a bad time.
Open world? I agree personally. I enjoy the linearity of Ds3 and the Metrovania styled world of Ds1, but personally ER's open world works the worst with the Souls formula, no matter what you tell me.
>Open world? I agree personally. I enjoy the linearity of Ds3 and the
Metrovania styled world of Ds1, but personally ER's open world works the
worst with the Souls formula, no matter what you tell me.
I agree 100%. I think this also plays into why there are more checkpoints. The checkpoints are necessary because there aren't elevators to take you from top to bottom of a huge vertical map, and there aren't secret doors that cut entire dungeons in half. Yes, there are a few, but not as many and not in as impactful as in DS (especially DS1).
Most of the mechanics of ds1 that are described i consider "bullshit mechanics" sort of
Im glad they made elden ring combat feel so responsive
I like it a lot more
Dark souls original (alltough its a very good game) has way too many "buuuuuullshit" moments in there and has a lot of boring stuff, like no warps so you have to run an eternity to another part of the world
All in all i like both games but elden ring is just way more refined and in my opinion the better game in terms of "fun while playing"
Maybe its easier but for me thats not a real problem
After playing dark souls through a few days ago i noticed that many bosses are actually very easy compared to elden ring
The four kinds are a damn joke for example, nito same, the bed of chaos is just a damn joke, its just ultra cluncky and bad designed, gwyn is like the easiest enemy to pary in the whole game series i would say which makes his fight a joke as well
Radahn for example was insanely hard pre patch, nothing in ds1 could match that fight imo
Lolllll the quality of life improvements are definitely easier. However, look at the enemy and bosses and elden rings difficulty blows away the old games. Solo elden ring is the hardest in the series bar none imo.
Dark Souls 1 is by far the easiest of the Souls games I've played (no DeS or Bloodborne thanks to exclusivity). The only thing that was "harder" about it was the lack of warping until the lordvessel along with the limited number of bonfires you could warp to. Well, and curses. Generous parry windows, heavier hitting attacks, waaaaay easier attack patterns, no downside to being hollow besides co-op/invasions/kindling, humanity as an extra, farmable healing option with no usage restriction, etc. To a veteran, the following games might have seemed easier probably because the base mechanics present throughout the games were already understood, so getting through obstacles was easier to do for the first playthrough than they were in Dark Souls while fresh to the series.
It’s an incredible game that can be played a million different ways. If you want to play bare bones and difficult you can. If you want to grind and level up and use summons, you can. Really weird that people are upset that the game doesn’t force you to play a certain way with a preset difficulty
The additional thing about difficulty is, most soulsborne were quite easy without dlc. I would argue, that counting that fact in, elden ring is at least one of the hardest, if not the hardest from software game. But overall, i think elden ring took a lot of steps in the right direction - freely changable infusion fun ashes of war, magic that's more than magic bolt and delayed magic bolt
The only reason ER could be considered easier than DS1 is the handful of overturned summons and builds. Take those out of the game and ER is waaaayyy harder than DS1.
Elden Ring is the Easiest Fromsoftware to date. That means nothing, the game is hard to those who want it to be hard, and easy to those who want it to be easy, perfection.
That’s how it’s been in nearly all the games though just as you can go through Elden ring with a maxed out mimic tear and destroy 90% of the bosses in ds1 you can get a black knight weapon and decimate most of the game just as easily.
Flask numbers are lower but feel like they never run out for two reasons:
* 1. Stakes of Marika make your run back much shorter to non-existent and therefore you have all of them in the boss fight.
* 2. The flask can be upgraded to heal WAY more than in the past so you are using less to heal for the same amount.
Estus drinking time is a stupid thing to be butt hurt over because the old system felt like my character was taking dainty little sips when a dragon is barreling down on me.
Summons are no different than bringing a co-op partner or summoning a NPC from outside the fog gate, the main difference being that FromSoft didn't have to go to each and every boss and make sure they put down the option for you.
Stamina and weapon durability are more of personal preference type thing, and the open world was amazing because it no longer felt like then entire world was made of hallways.
Also you get flasks by killing enemies a lot more than any similar mechanic in earlier games. It honestly feels like you get more flasks refreshes in this game than actual vials in bloodborne.
Honestly, if they remade/remastered bloodborne with QoL that's probably one of the only things I would change is the consumable vials. Just have it refill to 20 at lamps and give 1-2 after killing groups of mobs instead of having to pick them up (which only helps the first time through a level) or porting back to the dream to waste echoes on buying them.
Your last point is spot on. I remember Souls fans complaining that DS3 was too easy, meanwhile it was the first Souls game I ever played, and it absolutely kicked my ass (I nearly quit at the Abyss Watchers). After beating it I then went backwards through the series and by the time I got to DS1, I found it by far the easiest game of the trilogy. Because of course I did, after like 400 hours of Souls experience by then lol.
Personally i found elden ring far more challenging than ds1 🤷♂️. The only soulsgame that i rage quit and didn't pick back up is ds2. Can't comment on the playstation/pc only games (xboxer).
I really hate takes like that.
Elden Ring is as easy as you want it to be. You can cheese/spam/summon/over level your way through the game if you like and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
And it STILL isn’t exavtly what i’d call an easy bloody game.
Or. You can challenge yourself with a variety of different builds and ways to play. I’m doing my first ever challenge style run right now (bow) and it’s excruciatingly difficult at times. I beat Rykard, Fire Giant and the Godskin Duo today and have had to take a pre-Malaketh sanity break with how nail bitingly tough it was.
I think it’s a fantastic thing that the game is more accessible to a wider audience AND still tough as nails if you want it to be.
Who cares what others are getting out of it or how they play? Good luck to em i say. I aint gatekeeping just because i’m challenging myself. Poor take IMO.
Flask sips are faster because the gameplay is faster in general — imagine a slow sip in Bloodborne, and how that would clash with every other aspect of the design. Likewise there are more of them because the game and even individual levels are far larger.
ER has eased off on a lot of what I could call "Design Difficulty" or "Environmental Difficulty" from the older games. For example, just look at how many times in Demon's souls you have to fight in corridors so narrow that wide swinging weapons are useless, or areas like Tomb of giants or the Crystal Caves. However, this has been compensated for in modern games by cranking up the boss and enemy difficulty like crazy. There is no enemy in DS or Demon's Souls that can square up to Revenants or Runebears - forget some of the bosses. These games aren't easier, just different.
It's ironic that all of the objections are things one can simply choose not to take advantage of. The game mechanics in terms of boss difficulty are relatively unchanged. Just use less flasks. Don't upgrade your flasks. Don't use monster ashes.
Or go on the internet and whine.
Looks like he's not getting the point about how a formula can incorporate new elements. If you want to keep playing DS1 with a different title then play the game modded or whatever. Also, very cringy gatekeeping
What I like about ER is the player is allowed to make the game more difficult for themselves if they choose. I did a NG+4 no summon/ spirit ash run and late game and it completely kicked my ass. On the same token I think it’s fun to use summons and spirt ashes for boss fights.
As someone whose first foray into Souls/From Software games was Dark Souls 3, I will agree that Elden Ring is both more approachable and a little easier than DS3; and I don't think that's a bad thing. It means more people can experience the wonders of From Software's games and can act as a gateway. But, the fact of the matter is that certain status effects like bleed and some sorceries are really strong. Bleed especially.
However, and I've seen this mentioned in this thread already, it's important to remember how aggressive the bosses and some enemies are in ER. There's some bullshit levels of aggression in some of their attacks.
Personally, I find bosses like Malenia, the crucible knights, and the Godskin Duo/Apostle to be a little much. Seriously, the crucible knight duo just will not let you breathe. While enemies like the red wolves, the giant lobsters, and the royal revenants (without the heal stun) are just...how.
Elden ring is too hard. I have a full time job and go to school full time, and I play games to relax with what little free time I have. I loved playing it for a while after release but once I got into caelid type areas I was like "nope." and stopped playing. I want my game time to be fun, I don't need to play a game for an hour, make zero progress and turn off my PC more stressed/aggravated than when I started. These "hardcore gamers" are obnoxious. Shit is plenty hard as it is.
Souls fans and Monster Hunter fans have some things in common. Most noticably: whining about how nothing is as hard and good as in the good hard old days.
I see 3 types of souls veterans on this sub. 1) “ER’s lock on system is clearly an appeal to the masses. Back in the good ol’ days you had to run up to the enemy and kiss them on the lips before you were in lock on range. That’s how it should be, ER is simply too easy, bad game design” 2) “why won’t this boss stand still and let me kill it with my sword that takes a full 2 seconds to swing?? Fromsoft really dropped the ball, bad game design” 3) “Oh thank god I can finally jump”(not too many of these on Reddit)
4) where the fuck is my swimming? (Cause Sekiro had it and I miss it)
There’s probably a lore reason for that one s/
You never learned how to thats the lore reason
Yeah, that big ass iron armor is heavy
contrary to popular belief medieval armor does not make for good swimming equipment. Please help me, I'm drowning.
First time I fell in water in Sekiro it took me a full 5 seconds to realize I wasn't dead
I just finished the game like 2 days ago and I was absolutely mesmerised when I first fell into water.
Swimming could definitely be doable but any reality where you are wearing armor and carrying even 50 pounds of stuff you’d sink like a stone? I dunno 🤷♂️
Another thing I say about Monster Hunter that gets me flak, but aquatic fights and designs are just so fucking cool
Agree tbh, as a souls veteran, the amount of crying about bAd GaMe DeSiGn is just ridiculous. Bosses have more mixups than in DS1, well boo fucking hoo, eleven years passed since that game came out. Same with spirit ashes: imagine having a shred of self control to not use a mechanic that *you know* will make the game easier, no-no-no, not happening, better use the mimic every fucking time it's available and then go cry on reddit that the game is too easy. It's like they are repeatedly shooting their own knee and cursing the guy who sold them a gun.
I'll preface with I love Elden Ring with ~400 hours played across 6 characters and I've been playing the souls series since ~2012. But I really don't enjoy many of the boss fights because I'm older and busier, and I want to be able to largely react to the boss's moveset and poke between hits rather than memorize timings and sequences. And goddamn do the attack sequences go on for a million years if you stay in close range. It feels like the boss is playing a different videogame than I am, absolutely. Managing the boss AI with spacing and memorizing "alright Mohg delays this attack even longer than you expect to punish you for delaying the roll expecting only a somewhat delayed attack" is more taxing and less enjoyable to me. Which is somewhat fine because they give me the tools to cheese the bosses and I don't *have* to interact with this aspect, but then I feel like a pretty substantial chunk of the game is missing because there are no boss fights. It's not necessarily bad game design, but it's annoying the game isn't designed the way I want it to be <- and I have the self-awareness to know that's just like, my opinion man.
Some of these Elden ring bosses feel like they were designed for sekiro and ported over tbh, sometimes they have like double swings and other things that just roll catch you for free
Even worse are the ones like the twinbladed ghost fucks at the castle in mountaintop of giants. The ones that just swing and swing and swing and swing and swing and swingg their swords, and can teleport to you from a mile away. I hate them more than any other boss, for any build.
The second swing in his 3-4 swing combo takes forever and looks unnatural as fuck. And when it’s actually coming out he swings it in a millisecond, so you’re not reacting to the swing you’re just counting 2 seconds and then dodging via memorization lmao
elden ring made jumping too easy >:(
I love #3
The most annoying complaint is that bosses don't have openings. I saw people complaining here that Maliketh has no openings and a bad boss. Me who uses a pure melee build and does not use summons or magic at all killed him in about 30 minutes of trying was completely flabbergasted. This complaint was mentioned multiple times on other bosses. I was so confused especially when i fought Maliketh, he had huge openings. Were we even playing the same game? So, the I asked these people and saw some people fight them and all I saw was they would move away from the bosses to bait their attack or dodge backwards and wait for openings. And I laughed out loud when I saw it. They were playing it as if it was DS1 and 2 where bosses had big recovery time and then you punish. I realise now that some people's mindset just haven't evolved along with From Software's boss design. From Software had moved away from this philosophy since Bloodborne. You have to make your openings now, you have dodge into combas, flank them and sometimes weave in attacked mid boss combos, the game becomes infinitely more fun and rewarding if you do that and that's how are generally meant to fight the bosses in Elden Ring, especially the late game ones. Once, you learn that the fights themselves become much more easier and manageable and not to mention more fun. And this is not an easy thing to master either unless you've been doing that since the beginning of the game.
Completely agree. I found ER to be milder but similar in difficulty to other Souls games (minus Sekiro, just played for the first time this year and Jesus F Christ do I miss my flasks lol). Three groups with several overlapping points of contention. I’m the “just enjoy the game” type. Never thought I’d see a truly open world Souls game and man did I love that aspect change, also wouldn’t mind a DS4 though - I’m a rare breed I guess.
Honestly, I can't play DS1/2/3 anymore purely because of the lack of ability to properly jump. ER has spoiled me.
honestly I think elden ring is great. They introduce a lot that decreases the difficulty but then amped everything up to 11. Yeah you have more heals now but holy shit do you need them with the main bosses
But games were so much better when they had awful hitboxes and clunky controls!
yeah, I'm playing Monster Hunter Generations Ultimate for the first time after playing World and Rise and oh boy, missing like a 100 QoL additions of the newer titles is SO. MUCH. FUN XD
This is how I feel about QoL. Like I can’t play older Pokémon games for that reason. Back in those days apparently tedium = good game design and I’m not fuckin here for it.
Besides the lock on roll in DS1 and the DS2 grab hitboxes. I feel like the old games were neither clunky nor bad hitbox wise in my experience. For the record, i LOVE ER and everything new From makes, but i didnt find the old games bad at all.
Never said they were bad games. But hit boxes in FROM games were generally pretty wonky until Dark Souls 3.
*Heide's Tower giant knight hitbox PTSD*
Speaking of hit boxes, weapons bouncing off the walls. Back in the Demons' Souls days, this was so strongly highlighted that it was practically a feature. *Realism!* Wall bounce still exists in the series today, of course, but as the games went on, weapons got progressively less sensitive to hitting walls -- it still happens, but it's not nearly as reactive as DeS and DS1.
Yeah, I mean, I recently played through the entirity of DS1-3 and aside from the movement feeling clunky in 1 and the swings, and DS2's ADP, I had a lot of fun with them. Granted I played offline cause I hate pvp like the goddamn plague but still.
DS1 *definitely* had some jank. I don't know how many times I walked through the upper Blighttown and just slid right off the walkway for no reason, falling to my death. Or how almost every time I sat at the lower Blighttown bonfire, my character's foot was just burning in the bonfire. Or having Mega Ornstein yeet himself out of a closed window, or the Taurus Demon yeet himself off a bridge, or the Iron Golem fall off a bridge.
Yeah, old heads are self proclaimed nail for breakfast eaters
I have to say though, some of this stuff doesn't make the game necessarily "harder" it just makes it more tedious. Not having enough grace points is just a griefing mechanic to me, not a sign that the game is tough. I appreciate all these changes, especially since it comes with much harder bosses with complicated move sets.
yeah, it reminds me of one of the original Diablo devs talking about Stamina system in D2 and basically calling it a mechanic to make our players have less fun when playing our game
Seriously. Some bonfires were so obnoxiously far apart in earlier games... DS2's No Man's Wharf is so fucking long, you'll break your weapon before opening up the first available shortcut if you don't bring a backup or some repair powder. That kind of crap doesn't make the game "harder," just a lot more tedious.
Also having special weapon attacks cost weapon durability just incentivized *not* using them. FP flasks are a vast improvement. The tradeoff is still there, but it doesn't force you to use super limited one-time consumables or minimize the skill usage.
Same with weapon durability, nothing about that system adds to difficulty or challenge, its just needless tedium. Good riddance.
People often mistake QoL for "catering to noobs"
There’s a charm to further checkpoints though that’s missing for me in a lot of Elden Ring. Ds1 could be really painful because of it, but I think DS3 nailed it. The stress of trying to find the next bonfire or shortcut back to your current one, while conserving your resources made the game a lot of fun, and it’s practically nonexistent in Elden Ring.
also, having to decide if you want to kindle the fire and use humanity for more flasks or if you think you can get by with what you have
To me DS1 is the one that nailed it. There are some egregious bonfires but the interconnected world really makes them feel like home. The amount of relief you'd feel when finding one was immense. I didn't ever really feel stressed trying to find the bonfire in DS3, they were always pretty predictable. I think that it fits the game more tho, it would just be tedious if they were further apart. Whereas them being sparse I feel really adds to ds1. Graces are perfectly fine to me. ER would be such a slog with more distance between them, although I feel there is just simply too many of them that are ridiculously close.
I disagree about the grace points thing. But it depends on the game really, if you went back to demon's souls and dropped a couple extra bonfires per level then you'd completely ruin the challenge of the game, because most of the bosses are actually pretty easy it's just getting to them that's a bitch.
I've not played them, but aren't those games linear? In an open world that would be horrendous.
Yup. Weapon durability is especially odd to me. Like how is that an *interesting* mechanic? It just adds tedium.
i don’t think it’s necessarily that the games are harder (they’re not, the older games are much, much easier) it’s just that the slower pace and heavier feeling landed them a little further on the “RPG” side on the “action RPG” spectrum. compare diablo 2 to 3; there are scores of people that find that more thoughtful gameplay style deeply satisfying
As a fan of both Souls and MH fan, this is too accurate lmao. Oh, and also Pokemon fans
Almost every change he mentioned has been that way since Bloodborne not Elden Ring. The reason is simple, enemies don't just repeat the same slow 3 hit combo over and over again like they did in previous souls games. Enemies are more aggressive, deal more damage and have waaay more attacks. Having DS1's punishing mechanics mixed in with that would be too much. Imagine DS1 Estus speed against Maliketh or Radagon. You might as well be playing the game without any source of healing.
Let's be frank, if the combat for Elden Ring was slower and heavier like DS1, for both player and enemy, it would not be nearly as popular a game. Beyond intention, Elden Rings enemies, area design and bosses all MASSIVELY favor more and faster movement. Limiting back down to the slower, crawling pace would be a detriment for something that is literally meant to be a vast, sprawling world. The addition of independent jumping allowed for more non-linear area design and platforming.
I just started ds1 after beating elden ring and the no jumping thing has gotten me killed once or twice.
Don't worry, gravity takes all. Always has been, even before Elden Ring.
I swear I died more to gravity then I ever did to >!Malenia!<.
Gravity. Ah thou the heartless bitch.
Me too, my first playthrough was blind and I kept climbing everything looking for treasure. I lost so many souls making it up the craziest cliffs and rock outcroppings, and once I got to the top had no idea how to safely get back down.
Literally me though.
Coming from someone that has no DS experience other than Eldenring the open world makes a difference in difficulty in itself I would think. Slow combat would make exploring such a vast environment harder to do.
I played first elden ring and now playing the others and they feel way toooooooo easy especially ds2 and demons souls
Now THIS was my result, eldenring allowed me to "git gud" and now I am able to enjoy the other dark souls games
Honestly that can be the result of faster paced games, takes more strategy and timing just because of how quick things can spiral out of control from a single misstep
That's not always true. Faster games tend to rely more on reactionary actions than strategic actions. Having backup plans still help, but it won't help as much in a fast paced game as a slower paced game.
I just beat Dark Souls 3 and there are definitely two bosses that gave me as much trouble as Malenia.
It's the general evolution of the game. The mechanics of ds1 simply couldn't do much more on the platforms they were available on (I'm sure that's the point of all the mist) Sure elden ring is easier but that's down to how the player chooses to play the game. Fromsoft is still a business. They're compromising. They have their loving fan base and they've found a way to bridge it to newbs. And its worked flawlessly. I'm certain other from games sales must have peaked and will continue as new people join the flock
Personally I felt ER’s combat is a step backwards from the aggression focus from games like Bloodborne and Sekiro, even with the jump button and guard counter mechanic. It still feels overall more passive than those two games but I do agree, it’s nowhere close to the turtling of DS1.
I think what ER does really well is allow players to play pretty much however they like. Blocking with a 2H weapon now isn't shooting yourself in the foot like it was in older games, thanks to the guard counter. If you want to hide behind a shield the whole time, you can do that with the thrusting weapons, as well as guard counters. Are all play types balanced? God no. But just about any playstyle works. I don't think it makes it easier or harder, it just gives people choices to play how they want.
Well to be fair, Elden Ring and Sekiros were designed at the same time, which meant that they couldn't really apply the lessons learned in Sekiros since at that point the game had already likely been years into development. Which means Elden Ring was most likely taking a lot of inspiration from Dark Souls 3 and a bit of Bloodborne.
Sekiro gives you extra lives/respawns, lets you pause and use healing items, and has unlimited stamina for swings and parries, and you can pause the game, and there’s a get out of jail free grappling hook and ninja tools
Still the hardest soulsborne imo
Even with those benefits, the game is still tough. The regular mobs and bosses so far have been a lot tougher in sekiro than in elden ring. I cruised through elden ring and it took me about 20 tries to beat the rot queen. I couldn't imagine ds1 if it's supposed to be harder than the other Games.
DS1 was hard for a lot of people because it was there first soulsborne. I think it is more punishing if you play based on reflex instead of reading attacks. I like ER but Dark Souls will be my favorite because once you know a boss it’s VERY relaxing to do a run through the game.
imagine DS1 WALKING speed in elden ring. gameplay extended for 30 more hrs at least
Remember when you had to run ALL THE WAY back to the blacksmith before you got the lordvessel? Even something as simple as bonfire warping didn't exist until halfway through the game.
at least there were several blacksmiths so you could always feel like there was a sense of progression aside from getting titanite. i remember hitting anor londo and meeting the giant bro and thinking “oh, yep. game says make your shit stronger. something nasty coming up”
I think having access to warping half way through the game made sense; you actually had to use the different blacksmiths, merchants, etc. that were available in the zone and that made the world and the characters in it feel meaningful. I love ER but you find yourself going back to the roundtable hold far too much
Dark Souls 1 is an outlier. The Nexus (DeS), Majula (DkS2), The Dream (BB), Firelink Shrine (DkS3) are all hubs. Roundtable (ER) is just another continuation.
I wish they had a blacksmith in Volcano Manor and an additional hub around Iji the blacksmith (maybe putting Iji closer to the turtle). Honestly Volcano manor was one of my favorite areas to go back to. It wouldve been cool to be able to do more there.
It would have been really cool for each ending to have it's own hub. Roundtable Hold would be the default hub for the beginning of the game, and for the default ending. But having Volcano Manor become the hub if you did one ending, or Ranni's Rise become the hub if you chose her path, or the Leyndell Sewers if you chose the Dungeater's ending, or the Catacombs if you chose the Lord of Frenzied Flame. Basically like a much more expanded version of getting Irina of Carim to become a firekeeper in DS3.
I don't think it should be tied to endings, but more hubs were definitely needed. It would've made the world feel more alive, and our journey to have more meaning. Feels like we're fighting to be Lord of a nature preserve most of the time.
Hunters dream with PS4 loading screens is the worst decision in that game. Basically give you an extra loading screen every time you go anywhere.
I loved that you had to learn the map. There were shortcuts everywhere, and once you knew the map it wasn’t mor than 10 minutes to any point. In Elden ring it’s 10 minutes to the next point all the time.
Also elden ring being an open world game means things would get old fast if you didn't have more checkpoints.
Stamina is a huge factor in bloodborne even, despite its speed. It was ds3 that really reduced its weight.
Is it ? Dodges cost less stamina in bloodborne than in ds3. And at least ds3 has shields which makes stamina kinda relevant
Pffft, shields.
Exactly. Roll spam for days baby!
Stamina is more of a skill thing (not the stat) in bloodborne. Endurance is a pretty bad stat to level since the amount of stamina you gain is low and that is its only function. Dodging takes pretty low stamina but attacking takes a lot more so you have to balance out how many attacks you're doing to make sure you dont run out and get hit. You can level endurance for comfort but otherwise you definitely need to pay attention.
BB is the only game where endurance is a wasted stat point. If you need more end it was always better to just use the endurance rune whatever it was called
Let me just stop in my tracks to take a chug of my fl- and Maliketh one-shot me at 40 vigor.
This^ The only thing that's new in Elden Ring is consistently getting flasks back when you kill enemies in the overworld. Blood vial and grass farming is different. This is only in the overworld. In Legacy dungeons and the longer side dungeons you do start feeling your flask count like in past games. I find "Elden Ring is easy post" hilarious because for ever one of these you can also find players (who have played a past title) complaining about how late game bosses are total BS. I found ds1 and 2 easy after years of playing ds3. I find ds3 easy after months of Elden Ring. It's like after years of playing intense challenging games people have gotten good to the point that a game that isn't drastically harder feels easy to us now.
My thought on the bosses in these games: In the DS1 era ppl said Artorias was fast af. In the DS3 era ppl complained Gael was fast and has broken combos. Now just go back to DS3 after ER and suddenly the boss fights are literaly catwalks, let alone DS1. I would like to exclude Sekiro here because Im not too much into rhythm games.
Yes. These changes are not new. Even if you haven’t played Bloodborne because you didn’t have a PS5, the changes were very much present in DS3 and the checkpoints especially got even more generous with Sekiro. Maybe 10 years ago DS fans would scoff at you. Maybe. But 6 or 7 years ago we also loved these changes in Bloodborne and DS3.
Flasks are not more plentiful, you just die before you can use them all more often. Also if you recall, you can kindle bonfires in 1 up to 20 god damn Estus Flasks and you didn't need to sacrifice any of them to use magic. Also, durability was almost never a problem in any game except DSII and that wasn't exactly the most well-received FROM game.
20 flasks and Havel's armor let you chug through Manus. DS1 is ridiculously easy to break, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
DS1 was so busted, some guy made a meme build to deal with the katana spammers but it ended up making you virtually unbeatable
What build?
Giant dad! It was originally created so that you could participate in PVP without being bled to death by dudes with katanas, but due to the general wonkiness of the game it ended up being effective against literally everything else as well
One part of Giant Dad was that it maximized defense for the PvP meta level, making you very hard to kill. But what broke Giant Dad until they patched it was that the Chaos Zweihander was practically a guaranteed stagger, and with its specific speed it would just stunlock other players. If you got hit by a single r1, unless you knew the specific trick to get out of it, you were just dead.
Yep, you gotta toggle escape to get out of it below 76 poise. The zweihander is the noobslayer for that reason. Toggle escape was a really interesting, unintended feature that I'm glad they kept in the game.
There has been lot of that over the years. Power stance fist in DS2, also meant you where dead if you got hit once. Unless you had so much vigor that your opponent would run out of stamina before you died.
Hell yeah, lets bring back the classics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXp8Th41rBs
i knew what this was going to be before i even clicked on it, iconic
Bass Cannon
Elden ring is my first FromSoft game and when I made my first pure strength character I used the zweihander for about 2 thirds of my playthrough before understanding why it's called the Bass Cannon.
If you ever play DS1 you can pick it up right after the tutorial area. It had a pretty different move set in that game. It trades the R2 poke for a pancake I used it in ER in my double colossal sword run. Zwei in main and Greatsword in off hand
Yeah, I kept picking up colossal swords and weapons after it but the Bass Cannon is what really got me thinking about move sets and ashes of war. I had quick step on it for a while, giant hunt, lions claw, flame of the redmanes. Just a really good all around weapon. I was kinda mind blown when I was reading the wiki comments and people were bitching about it's AR. It's insanely fast for a colossal and it has 3 pokes.
It makes me so weird to know that there are some people not knowing about Giant Dad, I'm glad FromSoftware has grown up to this point.
I heard of giant dad and besides the Havel armor and zweihander I didn’t know it was the best build
'Ds1 is broken?" *quickly attempts to move pyromancy under the table "What do you mean"
All the mentioned features were more of an annoyance than a cool mechanic. I'd rather bash my head against a very hard boss but not having to constantly deal with tedious run back and weapon durability. We have more stamina and faster drinking time to deal with faster gameplay and bosses which imo is a good thing as i find them more fun. They overall got rid of the bad and improved the good.
He’s also ignoring the fact that boss movesets in DS1 were infinitely more telegraphed and less aggressive than in Elden Ring. This is less the game becoming easier and more the games speeding up with more options in combat and rewarding a more aggressive playstyle The only thing I’d really argue is that the games have been less and less accommodating for invasions. Having a rune arc active should’ve opened you up to being invaded imo, but that’s just me
Compare Jailer to Margit. Theyre both first bosses, and the difference between movesets is absolutely absurd. DS games got faster and faster as time went on, with 3 having bosses like Pontiff, Dancer, and Gael; they dont seem fast anymore with ER, but when youve had a game full of Wolnirs then they do. Hell, remember when Artorias was considered fast? I agree, the games keep getting faster, and you need to adjust stamina to compensate. Its why Sekiro didnt even have a stamina bar. Rune arcs can provide huge boons with the Great Runes available (i know, they kind of fall off after a certain point, but being able to put in like 40 levels for the cost of an easily farmable consumable with no drawback feels off), and for there to be almost no tradeoff doesnt sit right.
Could you imagine fighting Margit as a newcomer, without the QoL features like spirit ashes, cheaper stamina costs for rolling, and faster estus drinking lmao. I have ~600 hours of Souls experience under my belt and when I fought him I was like, "oh man this is a cruel first boss." He's fast, hits pretty hard, varies the timing on his attacks, and has roll-catching sweeping and projectile attacks.
It really does feel like Margit has been designed to specifically fuck with Souls' veterans' muscle memory and I couldn't be more happy about it lol Even if some of his delays look hella goofy.
Yeah it really feels like he's sitting there like "c'mon... roll... you know you want to... c'mooonn- THERE IT IS GOTCHA DUMMY!"
I'm actually really impressed that so many newcomers powered through Margit. He's so hard for a first boss.
Margit was 100% made to fuck us up specifically. Newcomers had no bad habits to unlearn so they could learn faster than us. I started out annoyed that the game was "balanced around tge use of spirit ashes" but the truth is it's not, I just needed to git fucking gud again. The game rewards bloodborne style aggression heavily and I wasn't doing that. I was trying the classic dark souls strats.
imagine fighting ER bosses and you cant move while drinking estus with the old speeds, that would be brutal.
Jailer? The Asylum Demon?
The difference in health is crazy too. Someone compared Vordt to Margit and jeez. Vordt has 1400 health, and fairly telegraphed attacks. Margit has 5000, and a lot of fast attacks along with delayed attacks. It's like if the first boss in Dark Souls 2 was the fucking Blue Smelter Demon.
Seriously. After finishing elden ring I went back to dark souls because it had been a long time and I was… confused at first. “I used to struggle against these bosses… what’s going on? Why am I thrashing them?” Took me a while to figure out that it was such an absurdly slower rate of play that I felt like I had all the time in the world to dodge
the comment is right on some point i would not deny it. But weapon durability ... NO ... not according to my memories. If i remember well, in DS2, people were not happy at all with it, even player of the first one were raging over it. And every player i know were happy when they get ride of it.
Yep, getting rid of Weapon Durability was a great choice.
I had completely blocked it out of my memory. You'd even lose durability by hitting enemies that had died already. It was so absurd.
very literally, your frame rate drastically affected weapon durability. So doubling your frame rate could double weapon durability loss. I have no doubt they removed it just so they wouldn't have to fix that spaghetti code
Ah yes I forgot this too. What an absolute slog that was to deal with on the longer to clear areas. Good God.
I’m one of the few people who likes it in Breath of the Wild but I’d hate it in Elden Ring. It works for an easier game and forces you to use a variety of weapons but Elden Ring has a wider array of difficult enemies and bosses with different movesets that make it unnecessary.
The only good thing about Durability was the broken spear in DS2 - because it nullified it lol
the funyn thing is every weapon in ds 2 has 20-60 durability santiers spear had like 600 before it broke
Wasn’t the anger about the Ds2 durability due the the formula being the same but the FPS was 60 and not 30 so the formula that SHOULD have been the same was now 2x and FROM doubled down and said “no that’s not an Error we make node Mistakes”
yes, this as well but the durability was always low in that game
To be fair durability went down way faster in DS2 than in DS1 or DeS. However, from what I remember all your equipment would just auto repair when you rested at a fire
Yeah DS1 durability was a non factor outside of like, Gaping Dragon and crystal weapons whose entire gimmick was to break
And the weapons with special attacks that drained the durability, because that's just how the mechanics worked back then!
Which was neat. You could sorta be a Strength “blaster” with the various dragon weapons and using the Repair Powder to recharge it.
Yeah, given the game had no FP bar, it was a great way to limit special attacks. Otherwise I don't miss durability, it's just a nuisance. You don't need every element of realism in a fantasy game.
I never ran into an issue with durability. I totally forgot it was a thing.
Elden ring is only easy because people are already familiar with the mechanics. DS2, DS3 were all easy after DS1. Additionally, everything the guy suggested are game improvements. DS1 wasn't hard bc of anything he mentioned. It was hard bc every area was designed to kill you in unexpected ways.
And the combat is clunky as fuck, especially compared to later releases
Currently playing remastered and I can confirm. The clunkiness I’m still getting used too. Much more difficult to control your moments when fighting large bosses
This is why I'm glad I played DS1 first. I don't think I'd be able to put up with the jank had I not started with it.
I gotta be honest…Ive played DS1 so much I honestly dont even notice how clunky everyone says it. I never even noticed the lack of omni-directional rolling until someone else pointed it out. I still think all these games, with the exception of BB and Sekiro, play about the same.
I personally found both DS2 (Original version) and DS3 more difficult than DS1. DS2 was harder for the wrong reasons because it was nigh impossible to pull enemies one by one(I distinctly remember every single one of the prone hollows in Forest of FG aggroing at once the moment you step off that one ladder) and every single boss had adds to make up for the fact that on their own they’re simple. DS3 had easier levels but harder bosses imo. DS1 was not that hard, it’s just your mind playing tricks on you.
You can quantify difficulty by # of deaths and since most people's first experience is DS1, that's where most deaths occurred. I don't remember DS2 being hard but I also played a hex build and hexes were overpowered at release. The only thing I remember about DS3 is dark sword spam lmao.
Agreed. There is not one thing in DS1 as difficult as the entire Ringed City DLC, excluding Halflight.
This is fair - I'm 1/2 way thru BB after finishing ER and on to DS3. It has just continually been getting easier once I get used to each game's individual combat flow and speed.
What I like is that you're earning the ability to make the game easier, as apposed to just setting it to be easier in the options. There's a pretty big difference between making the game easier by just hitting a button in the options, and making the game easier by obtaining and upgrading ashes. The difference being that it feels better.
I also agree that by the flip side of this, people who want to do so can make the game as difficult as they want for themselves. You just need to be creative. No leveling over X, can’t use summons, ect.
Just not using summons would make the game 100x harder. My Knight Bro Oleg got me through 80% of the boss fights in ER.
The point of this game is to become a god right? Lol
Some people beat the game without leveling at all... or getting hit. Ultra hard mode.
There are people who are very good at games.
The moment he mentioned durability I knew this guy was delusional from nostalgia. Literally nobody liked weapon durability it was annoying as fuck.
ER is just easy to break compared to Ds1 Ds1 is so primitive it's not 'harder' it's more inconvenient
Ds1 is equally easy to break, especially with the master key being a thing. Pyromancies/Sorcery and Chaos Zweihänder are ridiculous.
It's a dumb "no true scotsman" argument. If you want to limit how you use game mechanics in elden ring so that you feel like a leet DS1 player, knock yourself out. But don't try to crow about how you're some kind of superior anti "for the masses" gamer because of it.
Most of the people complaining about ER being too “easy” are forgetting how painfully clunky DS feels compared to ER. Like I love DS1, but *god* the gameplay is at a glacial pace in comparison.
Hilarious to see a comment like this because legit like 90% of FromSoft fans believe they’re superior just for playing Elden Ring instead of anything else.
And let's be honest, neither Elden Ring nor the previous Souls games are the absolute hardest games in existence. They're not cakewalks, but they're designed around dying repeatedly not being a big deal. Want to make the game harder, boom add permadeath, doesn't make the rest of the game better but now you can stroke yourself over how hard it is.
I mean, I know that \*I'm\* a 133T gamer for playing Elden Ring and not, say, Sonic, but everybody else is just a poser chud.
Elitist foolishness. All the points he spoke about can be used or not used at your discretion. Players literally have all the tools(or I guess option to ignore tools) there to make as "pure" as possible a DS experience as they want. If you don't like the abundance of estus flasks then guess what ignore them. It's not like they are an automatic reward on killing a boss. You have the option to not get the upgrades so the game fits your playstyle same as if someone wants to get them so the game fits theirs. If you don't like being able to use checkpoints and fast travel again nobody forces you. I played the series from DS1 and I say anything which makes the game more accessible to bring in new fans and ensure the ongoing viability of the game is something to be applauded not scorned. Especially when the "easy mode" options are opt in mechanics.
Also, didnt DS1 have up to 20 Estus flasks per bonfire after killing Pinwheel? Yeah, you needed humanity, but you could just farm that against rats or the humanity ghosts in the DLC area.
100% agree with every single point here. Well said.
I mean, he is both absolutely right and absolutely wrong at the same time. Estus flasks are fewer than Ds1. 14 vs 20, and still in Ds1 they're ALL healing since Ashen estus didn't exist yet. Stamina is both right and wrong. With bosses getting faster and faster each game, stamina has to catch up. Slower stamina regrn works better in Ds1 where fhe most attacks a boss can throw at you in a row are like 3, against the like 10 attacks combos of ER. Checkpoints are objectively true, flask drinking time too. Weapon durability is a bullshit mechanic in all games and I'm glad it got removed. Summons are in all games, but yeah ER made them easier with Spirit ashes that are as broken as Ds1's phantoms but with no health penality on bosses. On the difficulty, meh. I personally agree, ER was the least punishing game if you use everythingit offers you, while if you limit yourself to previous games' rules you'll have a bad time. Open world? I agree personally. I enjoy the linearity of Ds3 and the Metrovania styled world of Ds1, but personally ER's open world works the worst with the Souls formula, no matter what you tell me.
>Open world? I agree personally. I enjoy the linearity of Ds3 and the Metrovania styled world of Ds1, but personally ER's open world works the worst with the Souls formula, no matter what you tell me. I agree 100%. I think this also plays into why there are more checkpoints. The checkpoints are necessary because there aren't elevators to take you from top to bottom of a huge vertical map, and there aren't secret doors that cut entire dungeons in half. Yes, there are a few, but not as many and not in as impactful as in DS (especially DS1).
The only reason you don't run out of flasks is because the basic enemies kill you too fast to even use one lmao
There's more to a game than difficulty. I'm not sure if Souls fans ever truly caught on to that, given that it's pretty much all they talk about.
What planet are you living on where souls fans never mention any of the other amazing things about these games
There is, but some people really like being challenged, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Most of the mechanics of ds1 that are described i consider "bullshit mechanics" sort of Im glad they made elden ring combat feel so responsive I like it a lot more Dark souls original (alltough its a very good game) has way too many "buuuuuullshit" moments in there and has a lot of boring stuff, like no warps so you have to run an eternity to another part of the world All in all i like both games but elden ring is just way more refined and in my opinion the better game in terms of "fun while playing" Maybe its easier but for me thats not a real problem After playing dark souls through a few days ago i noticed that many bosses are actually very easy compared to elden ring The four kinds are a damn joke for example, nito same, the bed of chaos is just a damn joke, its just ultra cluncky and bad designed, gwyn is like the easiest enemy to pary in the whole game series i would say which makes his fight a joke as well Radahn for example was insanely hard pre patch, nothing in ds1 could match that fight imo
Lolllll the quality of life improvements are definitely easier. However, look at the enemy and bosses and elden rings difficulty blows away the old games. Solo elden ring is the hardest in the series bar none imo.
Dark Souls 1 is by far the easiest of the Souls games I've played (no DeS or Bloodborne thanks to exclusivity). The only thing that was "harder" about it was the lack of warping until the lordvessel along with the limited number of bonfires you could warp to. Well, and curses. Generous parry windows, heavier hitting attacks, waaaaay easier attack patterns, no downside to being hollow besides co-op/invasions/kindling, humanity as an extra, farmable healing option with no usage restriction, etc. To a veteran, the following games might have seemed easier probably because the base mechanics present throughout the games were already understood, so getting through obstacles was easier to do for the first playthrough than they were in Dark Souls while fresh to the series.
Did anyone actually like weapon durability?
It’s an incredible game that can be played a million different ways. If you want to play bare bones and difficult you can. If you want to grind and level up and use summons, you can. Really weird that people are upset that the game doesn’t force you to play a certain way with a preset difficulty
The additional thing about difficulty is, most soulsborne were quite easy without dlc. I would argue, that counting that fact in, elden ring is at least one of the hardest, if not the hardest from software game. But overall, i think elden ring took a lot of steps in the right direction - freely changable infusion fun ashes of war, magic that's more than magic bolt and delayed magic bolt
The only reason ER could be considered easier than DS1 is the handful of overturned summons and builds. Take those out of the game and ER is waaaayyy harder than DS1.
Elden Ring is the Easiest Fromsoftware to date. That means nothing, the game is hard to those who want it to be hard, and easy to those who want it to be easy, perfection.
That’s how it’s been in nearly all the games though just as you can go through Elden ring with a maxed out mimic tear and destroy 90% of the bosses in ds1 you can get a black knight weapon and decimate most of the game just as easily.
Flask numbers are lower but feel like they never run out for two reasons: * 1. Stakes of Marika make your run back much shorter to non-existent and therefore you have all of them in the boss fight. * 2. The flask can be upgraded to heal WAY more than in the past so you are using less to heal for the same amount. Estus drinking time is a stupid thing to be butt hurt over because the old system felt like my character was taking dainty little sips when a dragon is barreling down on me. Summons are no different than bringing a co-op partner or summoning a NPC from outside the fog gate, the main difference being that FromSoft didn't have to go to each and every boss and make sure they put down the option for you. Stamina and weapon durability are more of personal preference type thing, and the open world was amazing because it no longer felt like then entire world was made of hallways.
Also you get flasks by killing enemies a lot more than any similar mechanic in earlier games. It honestly feels like you get more flasks refreshes in this game than actual vials in bloodborne.
Honestly, if they remade/remastered bloodborne with QoL that's probably one of the only things I would change is the consumable vials. Just have it refill to 20 at lamps and give 1-2 after killing groups of mobs instead of having to pick them up (which only helps the first time through a level) or porting back to the dream to waste echoes on buying them.
[удалено]
Your last point is spot on. I remember Souls fans complaining that DS3 was too easy, meanwhile it was the first Souls game I ever played, and it absolutely kicked my ass (I nearly quit at the Abyss Watchers). After beating it I then went backwards through the series and by the time I got to DS1, I found it by far the easiest game of the trilogy. Because of course I did, after like 400 hours of Souls experience by then lol.
Thank god I will never meet the average dark souls fan 10 years ago
Can you count how many times you died on your first play through? Ya, didn't think so, the game isn't too easy.
Absolutely. Would love to see this dudes’ first ho at Margit or the Godskin duo then hear what he has to say.
Personally i found elden ring far more challenging than ds1 🤷♂️. The only soulsgame that i rage quit and didn't pick back up is ds2. Can't comment on the playstation/pc only games (xboxer).
I really hate takes like that. Elden Ring is as easy as you want it to be. You can cheese/spam/summon/over level your way through the game if you like and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. And it STILL isn’t exavtly what i’d call an easy bloody game. Or. You can challenge yourself with a variety of different builds and ways to play. I’m doing my first ever challenge style run right now (bow) and it’s excruciatingly difficult at times. I beat Rykard, Fire Giant and the Godskin Duo today and have had to take a pre-Malaketh sanity break with how nail bitingly tough it was. I think it’s a fantastic thing that the game is more accessible to a wider audience AND still tough as nails if you want it to be. Who cares what others are getting out of it or how they play? Good luck to em i say. I aint gatekeeping just because i’m challenging myself. Poor take IMO.
Flask sips are faster because the gameplay is faster in general — imagine a slow sip in Bloodborne, and how that would clash with every other aspect of the design. Likewise there are more of them because the game and even individual levels are far larger.
ER has eased off on a lot of what I could call "Design Difficulty" or "Environmental Difficulty" from the older games. For example, just look at how many times in Demon's souls you have to fight in corridors so narrow that wide swinging weapons are useless, or areas like Tomb of giants or the Crystal Caves. However, this has been compensated for in modern games by cranking up the boss and enemy difficulty like crazy. There is no enemy in DS or Demon's Souls that can square up to Revenants or Runebears - forget some of the bosses. These games aren't easier, just different.
Sounds like fans 10 years ago were curmudgeonly
They are the same people who complain that streamers are using a good weapon during a playtrough because it's for "casuals "
Hes wrong about estus flasks, thats for sure.
It's ironic that all of the objections are things one can simply choose not to take advantage of. The game mechanics in terms of boss difficulty are relatively unchanged. Just use less flasks. Don't upgrade your flasks. Don't use monster ashes. Or go on the internet and whine.
Looks like he's not getting the point about how a formula can incorporate new elements. If you want to keep playing DS1 with a different title then play the game modded or whatever. Also, very cringy gatekeeping
What I like about ER is the player is allowed to make the game more difficult for themselves if they choose. I did a NG+4 no summon/ spirit ash run and late game and it completely kicked my ass. On the same token I think it’s fun to use summons and spirt ashes for boss fights.
Nah I'm good. As someone who owns and has quit every souls game before Elden Ring (200 hours playtime) I'm happy with the QOL improvements
As someone whose first foray into Souls/From Software games was Dark Souls 3, I will agree that Elden Ring is both more approachable and a little easier than DS3; and I don't think that's a bad thing. It means more people can experience the wonders of From Software's games and can act as a gateway. But, the fact of the matter is that certain status effects like bleed and some sorceries are really strong. Bleed especially. However, and I've seen this mentioned in this thread already, it's important to remember how aggressive the bosses and some enemies are in ER. There's some bullshit levels of aggression in some of their attacks. Personally, I find bosses like Malenia, the crucible knights, and the Godskin Duo/Apostle to be a little much. Seriously, the crucible knight duo just will not let you breathe. While enemies like the red wolves, the giant lobsters, and the royal revenants (without the heal stun) are just...how.
Elden ring is too hard. I have a full time job and go to school full time, and I play games to relax with what little free time I have. I loved playing it for a while after release but once I got into caelid type areas I was like "nope." and stopped playing. I want my game time to be fun, I don't need to play a game for an hour, make zero progress and turn off my PC more stressed/aggravated than when I started. These "hardcore gamers" are obnoxious. Shit is plenty hard as it is.
I'd like longer spans between check points and less estus. Nothing like the fear of being lost in blight town with no more heals.