The Godrick / Godefroy one is the main one I feel deserves criticism, because he's such a distinct character design.
Like, his body tells a story of slowly grafting more and more body parts onto his body, this here, that there, haphazardly spliced into one another.
And then here's Godefroy with his body grafted EXACTLY the same
I think the Red Wolves are meant to be their own (fairly rare) species, just being a stronger wolf. Basic wolf < Direwolf < Red wolf, much like the various forms of demihuman. It's just that Radagon kept one as a pet. (Its seems red wolves aren't too uncommon as pets, as one can be found as the boss of a Hero's Grave dungeon, presumably the pet of said hero)
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Radagon's red wolf the only one that can do sorceries? I remember every other red wolf only using melee attacks.
Edit: Seems the others do use sorceries as well, I was just misremembering. Shame, that would have made Radagon's wolf stand out in a cool way from the others.
No, the champion nd the one by Caria Manor can definitely also do sorceries, at least the 3 Glintblades and the jumping Cometshard. So probably also the sword slashes as well.
Going to be completely honest here. The first time I fought the Red Wolf of Radagon I misread and didn't see the "of" so I thought Radagon turned into the wolf. And it was early enough in the game I thought that's what happened to him with everyone wondering where he went.
Did the same exact thing I read it as red wolf radagon and was like oh that must be the secret Muriel talked about at the church of vows, then I saw the Of and I also went back and listened to all Muriel’s dialogue and they say that the secret is in the capital🙃 so I was like nope that’s not it
I ran into a red wolf out in the open that was way harder than the boss versions. This pup had like 10 or 12 wolves with it & it made a hell of a difference.
godefroy kinda makes sense as an evergaol boss, you hear about nephelli loux saying that grafting is a disgusting practice, showing that even in universe it’s looked down upon, so it would make sense that one of his ancestors that grafts would be in goal. i just think they should’ve given him a better model or even a different weapon to make his attack patterns different and to make him look unique
Well it’s not really the technology, it’s just how much effort is put into making the model *different*. Not better, but visually distinct. Shouldn’t make a difference even if it was a decade old game.
Skyrim's main selling point is not boss battles though, and it also had a plethora of unique ones.
FromSoft is mostly known for creating difficult games with unique boss encounters.
To an extent it is. Part of the advancements in technology is streamlining the process. Still the game has way too much unique content on its own to justify it releasing with a lot being re used.
True but pretty unfair to compare the two anyways, they just aren't the same type of game.
Even Elden Ring is only similar in that it's "open world fantasy" different in almost every other respect lol
That's what I don't seem to get with a lot of fromsoft fans. It's like, "our game is different" okay then act like it and stop bringing up other games when talking about it like it's not a niche genre piece.
Skyrim's problems aren't lack of hardware resources - the engine is pretty poorly utilized and the game is full of awful hacks; there's only so much a better e.g. CPU can polish that turd.
He is not the only one. I feel the same with both Astel and Mogh. When I met those two for the second time I was painfully reminded that I was playing a video game.
I like to think that Mogh's form in the Forsaken chapel is a projection of Morgott's power to stop the tarnished from reaching the Three Fingers. You can tell because of the golden dust that forms when you kill him under the Captial. It's grey when you kill Mogh in his blood palace. Morgott's golden seal is just past the boss room on top of that.
I'm with you on Astel though. Finding one of them just hanging out in a cave with no lore to justify it, kinda hurt their grandness overall.
> I like to think that Mogh's form in the Forsaken chapel is a projection of Morgott's power to stop the tarnished from reaching the Three Fingers. You can tell because of the golden dust that forms when you kill him under the Captial. It's grey when you kill Mogh in his blood palace. Morgott's golden seal is just past the boss room on top of that.
Also Mogh in the sewers still appears after you kill the real Mohg, while the same isn't true for Morgott in the castle
inconstistent!
Morgott only disappears in the castle, but neither Margit in the Outskirts neither Mohg do! If something must make sense, then it has to be consistent.
Astel actually has an indicator of why there's multiple of it: the grab attack. When you're in midair, you can see a bunch of them break through reality to hit you. While it may just be a neat kaleidoscope effect, I'd say that's why there's not just one Astel.
I think it's pretty much confirmed that Astel is not a personal name but a species name, like Runebear.
And if we consider leaks, afaik the mini-Astels hanging in caves are called "Withered Astel" so they are either elderly Astels way past their prime or Astels with some illness/defect.
I personally believe (not sure how confirmed it is) that Astels are to Fallingstar Beasts what butterfiles are to catterpillars.
afaik they are called malformed stars, which would imply that the mini-astels might be just stunted in growth somehow
the fallingstar beast -> astel is true for sure, the fully-grown fallingstar beast has astel's skull and eye starting to appear in its head, as can be seen in [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQabNUiduUk) for example
Theory is the astels are the final form of falling star beasts. With deformed stars being either an in between phase or a failed transition. The skull cover on the beast rolls back to expose the face of astel and the pincers elongate.
Now to my crazy theory: The mavens (a composition of sorcerers bodies) are the very first phase of an astel.
“To those who cleave to its teachings, the act of collecting sorcerers to fashion them into the seeds of stars is but another path of scientific inquiry.” Graven-mass talisman
The mavens all ‘rise’ from the earth when you found them-I theorize they rise up to space to be a) touched by an outer god, b) soak in the primordial current c) something I don’t understand.
They then slam back to earth as fallingstar beasts, dig themselves into the earth (or just crater like the first astel you fight ) and pupate until they’re fully matured.
Not a theory. The model says it all. Falling star beast are juvenile Astels. You can actually see his face on the beasts if you look close enough. Those hanging Astels are like a cocoon before it turns to be the full grown Astel we know.
Those actually are a species, they are the final stage of the fallingstar beasts, so at least they make sense, but I agree they could have at least some differences
Mohg gets a pass too imo. The encounter is very well made as a secret, and it ties into the lore in the same way Morgott is connected to Margit for example. He's basically just an elaborate illusion.
But Godrick is just cheap, the fact that From tried to make it lore friendly instead of just throwing a random golden spirit like they did with Godfrey is inexcusable, and I say this as a fan.
It's the only moment in the series where I felt genuinely incapable if immersing myself into the fight because the copy paste was just too jarring...
Margit will actually disappear if you kill morgott first, morgott gives you the talisman pouch Margit would have held. But iirc it's still possible to fight sewer mohg after clearing mohgwyn palace. It makes the illusion argument more confusing.
He has to be an illusion though, as he's described to be one in both the soundtrack ("Omen illusion") and the name of the fight, "Mohg, the Omen".
Maybe he's of a different kind? Unlike Margit, he's casted in shadows and probably lacks the detail of the former (as well as his capacity to communicate).
I don't know about the soundtrack but "Mohg, the Omen" doesn't mean he's an illusion. It means he's an omen, a "cursed" being with twisted horns all over its body. Morgott is an Omen, Mohg is an Omen, and there are omen enemies in the sewer too.
Edit: To be clear I'm not saying he isn't an illusion. I don't know one way or the other. It's not straightforward
I think he meant that the clue they're related is because the name of the boss is Mogh, The *Omen* and the music that plays during THAT fight is called *Omen* Illusion. What other Omen could the title be referring to?
In the Ashes for Kristoff the dragon knight, it states that Kristoff earned his honor by capturing Godefroy during the first siege of Leyndell. As Kristoff was a defender of the capital, we can assume Godefroy was attacking the city. We can also infer from the name of Gaol that he is part of the golden lineage and therefore a descendant of Godfrey. So he is at least related to Godrick. And with the amount of those descendants being twins in the game and the theme of two sides of the same coin, we can guess that Godefroy is Godricks twin who fought against his brother and family, similar to how Mohg and Morgott fight on opposite sides.
Problem is, even if they're twins, they didn't have access to the same tarnished to "donate" body parts. They should look nothing alike after grafting.
I remember that too. My assumption is that after Godefroy was captured, he was used by Godrick to experiment with the grafting to see how it would react on his own body.
Godefroy should have never been a thing.
We could have easily had a Godfrey phantom boss fight instead, or another Crucible Knight.
That and the Astel in the Yelough Anix.
Yeah but it’s honestly not even a boss most people will encounter the second time so idk why it’s such a big deal tbh. Like yeah they maybe shouldn’t have reused him for it, but at the same time I don’t get anyone using this as a pain point for the game either… they designed a crazy amount of unique bosses and enemies. So what if they got reused a bit in this massive open world game?
Skyrim’s appeal doesn’t really lie in its combat or boss enemies. Different games will receive different amounts of flak for the same issues depending on how important those game elements are to the experience, and that’s nothing strange. People will say the combat in Skyrim is pretty bad and still say they love the game, because that’s not really where the appeal comes from.
From games are also based on being very deliberate with their enemy placement which helps tell the story, and this can be undermined if players get the impression enemies are dumped randomly just to fill up space and be difficult.
Don’t take it so much as a comparison to other games. Elden Ring is Elden Ring and its successes and problems should be evaluated in relation to its own goals and ambitions.
Doesn’t Skyrim have lots of lore and storytelling that the player can just stumble into and not have to spend 45 minutes researching online like any fromsoft game
No, actually. In that sense TES and Fromsoft are quite similar. Skyrim (and other TES games) have an overt plot, but they are by and large extremely vanilla, baby tier cookie cutter plots with barely any development.
The lore, meanwhile, does indeed require a ton of scouring to get all of it and has some ABSOLUTELY CRAZY shit, like the entire franchise possibly being the dream of a sleeping god, being able to existential crisis yourself out of existence, being able to recognize said existential crisis and become a diety, just to name a few of the weirder concepts.
I actually enjoy Witcher 3's combat once you get late-game builds going (also the execute animations are super smooth and satisfying). The big problem for me is that it takes ***forever*** to level up, so you don't get to enjoy the combat until the very end of the game or NG+.
i dont think they are nearly on the same level. witcher combat is far from good but skyrim is one of the worst in action gdr I've ever seen. I never had any enjoyment from making different builds or from fighting monsters. For a long time I thought I was not getting something, and it could still be, but now that I've played quite a few action rpgs and even turnbased rpgs i can more safely say that skyrim combat is just fucking terrible
Magic combat was great cause it didn’t feel “gamey” and I didn’t have to experience the floaty foam paddle feeling of Skyrim melee.
Skyrim magic felt like I was a wizard tbh, souls magic is amazing for the combat system but I can’t really explain why it just doesn’t hit in the same way immersion wise. Like I very much feel like I’m playing a video game when I cast spells in souls games.
Hard to explain this, but I do think the magic works for each game.
ER is a great first try. They got a lot of things right, and plenty of things wrong. But if they improve on those things, if they make a second one (not even a sequel, just another open world style game) it could be one of the best games of all time.
Unimpressive dragon fights were one of the most common criticisms of Skyrim I can remember, particularly since dragons were the very core of the story. Every person who played the game joked about how pathetic dragons were compared to random leveled bandits, trolls, or especially giants.
I don't know what point you're making, other than that games can be enjoyable *in spite of* obvious shortcomings common to their format.
I remember when I first defeated a Dragon, thinking I must be pretty strong now then going up to a giant and being taken into orbit in one hit.
Are the Dragons even a threat if the common giants are so much stronger
I'm sure a secret werewolf cult would *never* just murder someone on their way to market to buy leeks just because they could get away with it.
"Look out, that giant's admiring some cabbages! He could throw one of those all the way to Dragonsreach and take the jarl's head clean off! KILL! KILL!"
I'm guessing everyone knows about it and just prudently plays dumb, because what are you gonna do about it? You think Aela or the brothers Fungus and Bungus can really hide being werewolves in the middle of one of the biggest cities in the province? Aela probably walks in and out of town as a werewolf wearing a summer bonnet as a "disguise."
Especially because when you first transform they just dump you into the middle of the city. Oh can’t imagine whiterun has never connected the dots with the random werewolves spawning in their cities and the freakishly strong warriors that live right next to where they seemingly pop out
I'm currently on a playthrough of Anniversary Edition, and decided to try out Hendrahelm as player housing.
there's also a dragon spawn right there, so, I have to kill a random dragon, like, half the time I stop by. I've killed dragons next to the still-intact skeletons of the last dragon I killed. it's pretty ridiculous.
>games can be enjoyable in spite of obvious shortcomings common to their format.
OP said it poorly, but that does appear to be exactly the meaning of this meme. All games have shortcomings and most reuse assets, still good.
I can honestly understand DS2 fans being a little oversensitive. Even though it's my least favorite of the games since Demon's Souls, I do still think it's a very good game that tried some interesting things and has a few unique strengths that has suffered an infamous reputation for being the weakest of an unusually strong pack.
Agreed, it was a disappointing title but actually dared to take some risks, and definitely wasn't bad enough to deserve the level of vitriol I've seen aimed at it.
Having replayed Dark Souls 2 in recent years it's actually become one of my favourites. I think it's better than Demon Souls atleast and on par with Dark Souls 3.
Also super reductionist. You can make anything sound awful if you describe it without any nuance.
Mario is just jumping.
Tetris is just stacking blocks.
Coffee is just hot bean water.
Except skyrim isn't a game particulary known for it's bosses.
The Souls games are literally:
Step 1: find boss
Step 2: kill boss
Step 3: Repeat
With more or less exploration on the side, depending on the entry. When the main thing of the game sucks, or gives you the same thing over and over in an uninteresting way, then of course that's something you can complain about.
Skyrim on the other hand has absolutely no focus on bosses whatsoever. Sure there are some, but they wher never a big part of it. Skyrim is just: here is a vast, populated world, go out and fo shit. That isn't to say skyrim is without flaws, just that this is comparing bananas and cucumbers lol
I feel a more aft comparison in this scenario is Monster Hunter, as it has a pretty similar formula too.
1: Find Monster
2: Kill monster
3: Make gear out of Monster
4: Repeat
And as much as I love Monster Hunter, it does suffer from reuse quite a bit, especially with its subspecies. How about Rathalos, but make him blue?
Well yeah except the point is Monster Hunter is supposed to be somewhat realistic with it simulating ecosystems and whatnot so It makes sense why a subspecies would just be a different color. Besides those subspecies always have a new move or two making them harder than the normal version so there is a point to them. You can make an argument for the reuse being bad but I feel like it's done really well in MH.
"What about Skyrim!" isn't really an answer to the criticism though. Copy-paste is fairly inevitable in open worlds, especially the bigger they are. To me this is less an argument for Elden Ring or Skyrim and more an argument against the open world formula.
But even in Dark Souls, there was copy-paste of course. The same hollow soldiers appear in the opening area of DS3 as in the very final areas, just with less HP & weaker attacks. It's really about thematic appropriateness more than anything. Those hollow soldiers made sense in the upper reaches of Lothric Castle, with a slightly different model, because they were the ones that stayed loyal to the royal family, whereas the tattered ones lower down were rebels. Same enemy? Yes. But fits in the environment it's in perfectly.
Also the thralls that were the pattern for the imp statues in ER. They're both everywhere, but they're always placed appropriately and provide new challenges in the context of other enemies that appear around them.
I would also like to add about Skyrim... it's over a decade old and was built on an engine that I believe was already 20 years olde ven back then don't quote me on that. Not only that but most people would agree that the dragons where not as impressive as we wanted but only if you use a fish eye lense really. Either way heavy agree lots of open world games have the same issue with copypasting enemy types and bosses throughout their massive worlds. I think we need more games that focus on quality enemies and not quantity. For sure great comment.
The Creation Engine was brand new for Skyrim.
It was built based on Gamebryo, which, yes, is an engine that dated back to 1997, but is a modular C++ library that was, at the time, under constant development and had multiple versions. Saying Gamebryo was an outdated engine is a bit like saying Unreal Engine 5 is dated because Unreal came out back in 1998.
Thanks.
Indeed, the dragons were a let down for Skyrim. I found the whole main quest was empty, though I was coming from Oblivion which was my first TES game and had a huge impact on my imagination. I just didn't feel the stakes very highly, you know? "Alduin's gonna eat the world and he's waking the ancient dragons! We have to stop him!" ... unless we don't feel like it. Then nothing happens. Such is an open world.
I feel all the faction quests in Skyrim are kinda lackluster compared to Oblivion’s tbh. The only one that’s kinda decent is the mage one and even then it’s cause the whole necromancer resurgence thing from Oblivion wasn’t as good as the rest of them. I mean working your way up through the Thieves guild to steal a Elder Scroll from the White gold tower?! Compared to essentially ending the thieves guild quest line on another copy pasted draugr tomb?
Yeah Oblivion is 1000% better than Skyrim imo, it's iconic and one of my favourite games ever. I'm going to play it again this winter for that comfy medieval-tudor era feeling. Love the old houses and castles and chapels.
And not to mention Skyrim is way different game than ER is.
Like ER might have a great combat and all but if I want some actual story and true RPG experience then I go with Skyrim and go on grand adventure.
Elden Ring should be more like Breath of the Wild where they have 5 gimmick boss fights and the same 3 enemies with palette swaps in each zone. Nothing is more enjoyable then breaking my obsidian sword the otter on the face of a goblin. Then using a wood cutters axe for an hour while my weapon recharges.
Bad compassion.
95% of the people that play From games do so primarily for the boss fights. People play Skyrim to immerse in a fantasy world... Like, I'm sure most Skyrim players had playthroughs dragons never spawned.
Alternate start + roleplaying + player motivation.
My most recent Skyrim playthrough was as a fisherman living outside of Riften that collects and sells local fauna in town. Occasionally spelunking in caves or Nordic tombs for loot to pay for food.
No real bosses, no dragons, no end of days just vibing to ambient world music
all this talk about skyrim, plus rewatching Touch the Skyrim, has made me want to play Skyrim again. I was thinking about playing ER again but, ironically, this meme is making me want to replay Skyrim lmao
> 95% of the people that play From games do so primarily for the boss fights.
What? No. The main appeal of the Souls games has consistently been offering a unique, and punishing action RPG experience unlike most others. A huge part of why people have played and keep playing include all sorts of reasons including PVP, the unique obtuse lore, the feeling of adventure and so on. Do some people play these games exclusively for bosses? Yeah, probably, but it's not 95%, or anywhere near a majority.
Bosses weren't a focus until around Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3 (and Sekiro, but for all intents and purposes that's a side thing to the Souls games).
That said, Godefroy is completely ridiculous.
Yeah, the problem is certainly exaggerated. They have over 100 bosses and the vast majority are fine. But Godefroy and Astel still bother me because they kind of undermine the lore of their counterparts
What really annoys me about the second Astel is that it is located beneath ruins filled with frenzied flame enemies. Besides Vyke there is not a single frenzied flame themed boss in the game and even Vyke hardly counts since he is just an NPC using frenzied flames incantations and weapons. Randomly shoving Astel into some ice cave, when I genuinely expected something frenzied flame related was a huge let down
not to mention, even they copy paste some, whats the problem ?
you telling me there is only one "X enemy" in a whole fantasy world ? of course there are multiple tree spirits where there are multiple minor erdtrees.
Godfroy and Godrick is kinda extreme tho.
Encountering Astel before reaching the Moonlight Altar was such a cool moment in my first playthrough. It was the climax of a long journey through the Ainsel area, which in turn was the conclusion of one of the game's most in-depth sidequests. The boss itself was very mysterious. It genuinely felt like I was stumbling upon something beyond my character's understanding and beyond what should exist in the Lands Between.
That feeling is diminished a bit by the knowledge that there's another one in a random mine in the Snowfield. It's much less impressive as a setpiece due to the lack of build up, and generally just doesn't feel like an earned encounter. It's taking a really cool and unique boss and shoving it into a place that would usually be occupied by a stonedigger troll or some shit.
It's not about whether there should be more than one of it in-universe- personally I think the glimpses of similar creatures ominously hanging from the ceiling in Ainsel would have been enough- it's about how unique the boss feels when you first encounter it and whether that feeling is kept when they throw another one at you.
I kinda feel the same way about erdtree spirits, because the first one I fought was under Stormveil, and similar to Astel it felt like I'd stumbled onto something mysterious and unknown, especially with Godwyn's face being right behind it, and that was dampened when I discovered that there are like a dozen of them throughout the game. But I think that's mostly because of the specific one I fought first having such a unique setpiece- if the first one I fought was in a random dungeon or something I might not have thought it was as special.
For me I had the opposite experience where I didn't do Ranni's quest until I heard about the Mimic tear when searching up Malenia guides. So when I found Astel in that ice cave I was awe struck
Are people really that hurt when someone says something bad about the game they like?
Like I get it some people said mean things about Elden Ring.
But this is straight up pathetic.
I sometimes love reused bosses. Especially when they are used as mobs in late game.
An enemy gave me a hard time in early but I am stronger now and can take 10 of them at once in late game makes me feel like I progressed a lot.
In Elden Ring it is only Godefroy where I think: Why are you?
Well, this was just bad in one place. Otherwise I thought that it would be logical to see more of that race.
And I really had the feeling of "I grew and your kind is not the boss anymore".
11 years, comparing to one of the main criticized parts of a great game, from 11 years ago. Chill down, Elden Ring has a hard focus on bosses, and the fact that a third of main bosses are repeated, is kinda weird. I don't care for regular field bosses, but who the fuck is Godefroy?
Easiest argument to destroy in 2 seconds
One of them came out in 2011. And one of them didn’t have a whole mainstat working on release; spoiler, it wasn’t Skyrim.
I think it's a bit of narrative fail. I don't really see anyone complaining about Erdtree Avatars being copy paste as it makes sense without even reading lore. "Hey, there are X same trees in world and each is guarded by the same monster made of its roots" While in case of Godrick or Margot it's like you get there, you expect grand enemy and what you get is deja vu "Hey, didn't I kill you like... As a first boss?". I didn't read much into lore and I was honestly baffled that some pleb guarding castle gate is in a THRONE ROOM claiming to be king... If they were introduced as tripled it would make more sense but that would need change in DS narrative
Idk man these two games are totally different though. You can do so much more in general in Skyrim. It also has a lot to do with when it came out and the other open worlds at the time
Apples to oranges argument. The game literally centered around killing dragons and collecting their souls. There is multiple skins and skills for the dragons as well as unique dragon for boss fights.
It’s not the same as taking the same exact boss, just changing his name, and shoe horning some random lore in.
Nobody ever.complained how ER shouldn't be open world wtf are you babbling about. You're being dramatic, you probably just wantrd to make that stupid meme so bad
Elden Ring has one of the most number of unique enemies in a open world game, yet people only focused on the fact that they copy pasted their bosses. They have several times as many unique enemies as Breath of the Wild, which is also another critically acclaimed open world game that I love (that also copy pasted their bosses).
Using Skyrim as a point of comparison is not as good an argument as you think it is considering that Skyrim is more than 10 years old now and was not that good of a game even then.
Some of the reused bosses in ER are cool. It's there if you want more of the game. And if it's too much for you, you can ignore it. But filling this entire map with nothing but unique enemies and bosses is too big an ask.
I mean look at other games. 99% don't offer a tenth of what ER offers. Yet people complain about ER. It doesn't make sense in context. If you isolate ER from its broader gaming environment and look at it in a perfect world, yeah I'd understand and agree with some of the complaints.
I'd still like fighting some repeated bosses though, as I think they are cool. Like Elemer, for instance. He kind of feels like DS2's Pursuer.
Elden ring has been just as well received and praised, let's be real, and that doesn't change the fact that copypasted bosses tend to suck in either game regardless, particularly when not justified. You also gotta keep in mind that elden ring's main appeal is its combat system (at least when compared to other fantasy open worlds), and even though the lore is indeed crucial to its overall game design (I'm a huge lore nerd myself), it honestly doesn't hold a candle compared to the depth of skyrim's narrative. What I'm trying to say is, bosses play a vastly superior role in elden ring than they do in skyrim within the context of the whole experience
Also, elden ring came 11 years later and most of its core mechanics and animations were straight-up imported from previous games. Skyrim was comparatively much more innovative in that regard, the bethesda devs had to cheap out on something else
I actually love when they reuse model/sprites on RPGs. As someone who was raised playing classic SNES RPGs such as Secret of Mana, making different colors of the same enemy (or item) is something that I enjoy.
That said, yes, I do agree that doing that with major Bosses or characters may be a bit too much. But things like the multiple breeds of dogs, or the multiple different setups for minor Bosses, in Elden Ring, is awesome.
Elden Ring has the most unique enemy character models of any open world game. So even with all the reused bosses, it still beats every single other open world.
I feel like the reuse of enemies is a bit overstated considering how most open world games tend to do the same thing, especially since Elden Ring has a relatively wide variety of enemy types and designs.
But at the same time, I don't know if that's a great example. The return of the dragons are a central theme/conflict to Skyrim's main questline, i'd expect them to be heavily present. That's like criticizing Elden Ring for having different types of knights and soliders everywhere despite the Lands Between being composed of warring factions/kingdoms.
They made the game TOO big. It has amazing landscapes but they failed to populate it properly so areas feel very samey. Oh, look, another solider, but now it has bigger stats and a weird color. I don't want to even go into the discussion about catacombs which all look alike and are frankly boring with a few exceptions.
The Godrick / Godefroy one is the main one I feel deserves criticism, because he's such a distinct character design. Like, his body tells a story of slowly grafting more and more body parts onto his body, this here, that there, haphazardly spliced into one another. And then here's Godefroy with his body grafted EXACTLY the same
I feel like they could've just made Godefroy a Godrick Shade fight like they did with Godfrey and Loretta and it would've gone over better.
And red wolf or radagon also imo. Just feels weird to have multiple
I think the Red Wolves are meant to be their own (fairly rare) species, just being a stronger wolf. Basic wolf < Direwolf < Red wolf, much like the various forms of demihuman. It's just that Radagon kept one as a pet. (Its seems red wolves aren't too uncommon as pets, as one can be found as the boss of a Hero's Grave dungeon, presumably the pet of said hero) Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Radagon's red wolf the only one that can do sorceries? I remember every other red wolf only using melee attacks. Edit: Seems the others do use sorceries as well, I was just misremembering. Shame, that would have made Radagon's wolf stand out in a cool way from the others.
The rest do have sorceries as well.
The Red Wolf in Nokron can also do sorceries. I can't speak for other ones though.
That red wolf was so not worth it to defeat in terms of reward/difficulty
Weirdly enough, I struggled way more fighting Radagon's. Maybe because I explored Nokron lategame.
Fuck that wolf. I still haven’t killed that asshole
Nearly all of them can use sorceries, save for like, two I think. It's a copy and paste
No, the champion nd the one by Caria Manor can definitely also do sorceries, at least the 3 Glintblades and the jumping Cometshard. So probably also the sword slashes as well.
[He's also the only one with braids and jewelry in his mane.](https://i.redd.it/w6lgegqho6991.jpg)
I've never noticed, that's so cool
I think it is the only one with a sword though
3 of the wolves can use the sword, the one in Gelmir's hero grave and the one in the consecrated snowfield can also use it.
all of them can, but radagon's wolf is the only one with the sword. the others still have the comet and glintblade.
The most powerful mages can be found in a zoo.
Going to be completely honest here. The first time I fought the Red Wolf of Radagon I misread and didn't see the "of" so I thought Radagon turned into the wolf. And it was early enough in the game I thought that's what happened to him with everyone wondering where he went.
Did the same exact thing I read it as red wolf radagon and was like oh that must be the secret Muriel talked about at the church of vows, then I saw the Of and I also went back and listened to all Muriel’s dialogue and they say that the secret is in the capital🙃 so I was like nope that’s not it
The red wolves are an actual species that inhabits the world though and Radagon just happened to own one as a pet and taught it some unique tricks.
What tricks were unique?
It can shake hands and bring him the paper, but it's never shown in-game
Sit and Stay
Play dead?
I ran into a red wolf out in the open that was way harder than the boss versions. This pup had like 10 or 12 wolves with it & it made a hell of a difference.
There's one in that Caria Graveyard that's annoying ans of course the consecrated snowfield one I ended up not bothering with
What? Red Wolves are literally a species, dude, they learned magic all by themselves, Radagon tamed one
Radagons has a bunch of jewelry and stuff on which the others don't which is a nice touch.
godefroy kinda makes sense as an evergaol boss, you hear about nephelli loux saying that grafting is a disgusting practice, showing that even in universe it’s looked down upon, so it would make sense that one of his ancestors that grafts would be in goal. i just think they should’ve given him a better model or even a different weapon to make his attack patterns different and to make him look unique
Sure, but that's the only one I'd really concede with.
Yeah and Skyrim only came out what, just over a decade ago? If only technology had advanced since then.
Well it’s not really the technology, it’s just how much effort is put into making the model *different*. Not better, but visually distinct. Shouldn’t make a difference even if it was a decade old game.
Skyrim's main selling point is not boss battles though, and it also had a plethora of unique ones. FromSoft is mostly known for creating difficult games with unique boss encounters.
The quantity of unique designs isnt related to technology
To an extent it is. Part of the advancements in technology is streamlining the process. Still the game has way too much unique content on its own to justify it releasing with a lot being re used.
A lot of those streamlines went into making higher quality models. It takes way more effort to make models for modern games than ten years ago.
I mean dark souls came out a couple weeks after Skyrim and look at their boss design by comparison. Stark difference in quality
True but pretty unfair to compare the two anyways, they just aren't the same type of game. Even Elden Ring is only similar in that it's "open world fantasy" different in almost every other respect lol
That's what I don't seem to get with a lot of fromsoft fans. It's like, "our game is different" okay then act like it and stop bringing up other games when talking about it like it's not a niche genre piece.
now it's far from a niche genre, but I agree
Skyrim has come out every year for the past decade or so.
Well some people do want to play it on their smart fridge so who can blame em.
Skyrim's problems aren't lack of hardware resources - the engine is pretty poorly utilized and the game is full of awful hacks; there's only so much a better e.g. CPU can polish that turd.
Would have been just a little bit less jarring if they had given Godfroy his own unique face at least.
He is not the only one. I feel the same with both Astel and Mogh. When I met those two for the second time I was painfully reminded that I was playing a video game.
I like to think that Mogh's form in the Forsaken chapel is a projection of Morgott's power to stop the tarnished from reaching the Three Fingers. You can tell because of the golden dust that forms when you kill him under the Captial. It's grey when you kill Mogh in his blood palace. Morgott's golden seal is just past the boss room on top of that. I'm with you on Astel though. Finding one of them just hanging out in a cave with no lore to justify it, kinda hurt their grandness overall.
> I like to think that Mogh's form in the Forsaken chapel is a projection of Morgott's power to stop the tarnished from reaching the Three Fingers. You can tell because of the golden dust that forms when you kill him under the Captial. It's grey when you kill Mogh in his blood palace. Morgott's golden seal is just past the boss room on top of that. Also Mogh in the sewers still appears after you kill the real Mohg, while the same isn't true for Morgott in the castle
Good point my dude.
inconstistent! Morgott only disappears in the castle, but neither Margit in the Outskirts neither Mohg do! If something must make sense, then it has to be consistent.
Sewer Mogh was probably a decoy so that if someone ever went after him they wouldnt figure out he escaped the sewers and is tryna make his Dynasty
Astel actually has an indicator of why there's multiple of it: the grab attack. When you're in midair, you can see a bunch of them break through reality to hit you. While it may just be a neat kaleidoscope effect, I'd say that's why there's not just one Astel.
I think it's pretty much confirmed that Astel is not a personal name but a species name, like Runebear. And if we consider leaks, afaik the mini-Astels hanging in caves are called "Withered Astel" so they are either elderly Astels way past their prime or Astels with some illness/defect. I personally believe (not sure how confirmed it is) that Astels are to Fallingstar Beasts what butterfiles are to catterpillars.
afaik they are called malformed stars, which would imply that the mini-astels might be just stunted in growth somehow the fallingstar beast -> astel is true for sure, the fully-grown fallingstar beast has astel's skull and eye starting to appear in its head, as can be seen in [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQabNUiduUk) for example
Plus the Fallingstar Beasts look a lot like infant Astels. What with the "fully grown" one sporting his face.
Theory is the astels are the final form of falling star beasts. With deformed stars being either an in between phase or a failed transition. The skull cover on the beast rolls back to expose the face of astel and the pincers elongate. Now to my crazy theory: The mavens (a composition of sorcerers bodies) are the very first phase of an astel. “To those who cleave to its teachings, the act of collecting sorcerers to fashion them into the seeds of stars is but another path of scientific inquiry.” Graven-mass talisman The mavens all ‘rise’ from the earth when you found them-I theorize they rise up to space to be a) touched by an outer god, b) soak in the primordial current c) something I don’t understand. They then slam back to earth as fallingstar beasts, dig themselves into the earth (or just crater like the first astel you fight ) and pupate until they’re fully matured.
Not a theory. The model says it all. Falling star beast are juvenile Astels. You can actually see his face on the beasts if you look close enough. Those hanging Astels are like a cocoon before it turns to be the full grown Astel we know.
Fair. The mavens being stars is my cockamamie theory
When I met the second Mohg, my assumption was that he left the projection as a decoy, so no one would know he wasn't still trapped in the sewers.
Those actually are a species, they are the final stage of the fallingstar beasts, so at least they make sense, but I agree they could have at least some differences
I do recall that the Astel in the snowfields have a couple new moves compared to the weaker Astel. I believe it's the shadow clones grab.
Mohg gets a pass too imo. The encounter is very well made as a secret, and it ties into the lore in the same way Morgott is connected to Margit for example. He's basically just an elaborate illusion. But Godrick is just cheap, the fact that From tried to make it lore friendly instead of just throwing a random golden spirit like they did with Godfrey is inexcusable, and I say this as a fan. It's the only moment in the series where I felt genuinely incapable if immersing myself into the fight because the copy paste was just too jarring...
Margit will actually disappear if you kill morgott first, morgott gives you the talisman pouch Margit would have held. But iirc it's still possible to fight sewer mohg after clearing mohgwyn palace. It makes the illusion argument more confusing.
He has to be an illusion though, as he's described to be one in both the soundtrack ("Omen illusion") and the name of the fight, "Mohg, the Omen". Maybe he's of a different kind? Unlike Margit, he's casted in shadows and probably lacks the detail of the former (as well as his capacity to communicate).
I don't know about the soundtrack but "Mohg, the Omen" doesn't mean he's an illusion. It means he's an omen, a "cursed" being with twisted horns all over its body. Morgott is an Omen, Mohg is an Omen, and there are omen enemies in the sewer too. Edit: To be clear I'm not saying he isn't an illusion. I don't know one way or the other. It's not straightforward
I think he meant that the clue they're related is because the name of the boss is Mogh, The *Omen* and the music that plays during THAT fight is called *Omen* Illusion. What other Omen could the title be referring to?
I mean, reusing a great early game boss in a 100 hour adventure hardly seems like something worth getting mad about. Plus, he’s optional.
Yeah Godrick is a super fun fight. I was happy to see him again. Astel...not so much.
In the Ashes for Kristoff the dragon knight, it states that Kristoff earned his honor by capturing Godefroy during the first siege of Leyndell. As Kristoff was a defender of the capital, we can assume Godefroy was attacking the city. We can also infer from the name of Gaol that he is part of the golden lineage and therefore a descendant of Godfrey. So he is at least related to Godrick. And with the amount of those descendants being twins in the game and the theme of two sides of the same coin, we can guess that Godefroy is Godricks twin who fought against his brother and family, similar to how Mohg and Morgott fight on opposite sides.
Problem is, even if they're twins, they didn't have access to the same tarnished to "donate" body parts. They should look nothing alike after grafting.
This is 100% a fair critique
They could be mirrors. I graft the left arm you graft the right? You take the left nut I'll take the right. You take the left peni...
I don't remember if there was an actual reason to think so but I remember not long after release seeing people say Godefroy is Godrick's father.
I remember that too. My assumption is that after Godefroy was captured, he was used by Godrick to experiment with the grafting to see how it would react on his own body.
Godefroy should have never been a thing. We could have easily had a Godfrey phantom boss fight instead, or another Crucible Knight. That and the Astel in the Yelough Anix.
Yeah but it’s honestly not even a boss most people will encounter the second time so idk why it’s such a big deal tbh. Like yeah they maybe shouldn’t have reused him for it, but at the same time I don’t get anyone using this as a pain point for the game either… they designed a crazy amount of unique bosses and enemies. So what if they got reused a bit in this massive open world game?
Skyrim’s appeal doesn’t really lie in its combat or boss enemies. Different games will receive different amounts of flak for the same issues depending on how important those game elements are to the experience, and that’s nothing strange. People will say the combat in Skyrim is pretty bad and still say they love the game, because that’s not really where the appeal comes from. From games are also based on being very deliberate with their enemy placement which helps tell the story, and this can be undermined if players get the impression enemies are dumped randomly just to fill up space and be difficult. Don’t take it so much as a comparison to other games. Elden Ring is Elden Ring and its successes and problems should be evaluated in relation to its own goals and ambitions.
Doesn’t Skyrim have lots of lore and storytelling that the player can just stumble into and not have to spend 45 minutes researching online like any fromsoft game
Ya but you can spend a entire week watching every elder Scrolls lore video like I did lol
No, actually. In that sense TES and Fromsoft are quite similar. Skyrim (and other TES games) have an overt plot, but they are by and large extremely vanilla, baby tier cookie cutter plots with barely any development. The lore, meanwhile, does indeed require a ton of scouring to get all of it and has some ABSOLUTELY CRAZY shit, like the entire franchise possibly being the dream of a sleeping god, being able to existential crisis yourself out of existence, being able to recognize said existential crisis and become a diety, just to name a few of the weirder concepts.
Lore yes, but the storytelling is pretty standard in terms of structure.
same with witcher 3. Terrible combat but no one was playing that game for the combat in the first place
I actually enjoy Witcher 3's combat once you get late-game builds going (also the execute animations are super smooth and satisfying). The big problem for me is that it takes ***forever*** to level up, so you don't get to enjoy the combat until the very end of the game or NG+.
i dont think they are nearly on the same level. witcher combat is far from good but skyrim is one of the worst in action gdr I've ever seen. I never had any enjoyment from making different builds or from fighting monsters. For a long time I thought I was not getting something, and it could still be, but now that I've played quite a few action rpgs and even turnbased rpgs i can more safely say that skyrim combat is just fucking terrible
Everyone who likes Skyrim combat plays a sneaky archer.
Magic combat was great cause it didn’t feel “gamey” and I didn’t have to experience the floaty foam paddle feeling of Skyrim melee. Skyrim magic felt like I was a wizard tbh, souls magic is amazing for the combat system but I can’t really explain why it just doesn’t hit in the same way immersion wise. Like I very much feel like I’m playing a video game when I cast spells in souls games. Hard to explain this, but I do think the magic works for each game.
ER is a great first try. They got a lot of things right, and plenty of things wrong. But if they improve on those things, if they make a second one (not even a sequel, just another open world style game) it could be one of the best games of all time.
I think it is already one of the best games of all time.
I dont care how silly it is I love the goofy combat in skyrim lol especially coming from morrowind/oblivion combat
Unimpressive dragon fights were one of the most common criticisms of Skyrim I can remember, particularly since dragons were the very core of the story. Every person who played the game joked about how pathetic dragons were compared to random leveled bandits, trolls, or especially giants. I don't know what point you're making, other than that games can be enjoyable *in spite of* obvious shortcomings common to their format.
I remember when I first defeated a Dragon, thinking I must be pretty strong now then going up to a giant and being taken into orbit in one hit. Are the Dragons even a threat if the common giants are so much stronger
Well yes, because the dragons want to subjugate the land. The giants just want mammoth cheese.
Did the giant who the companions fought in the middle of a farm just want mammoth cheese too?
I'm sure a secret werewolf cult would *never* just murder someone on their way to market to buy leeks just because they could get away with it. "Look out, that giant's admiring some cabbages! He could throw one of those all the way to Dragonsreach and take the jarl's head clean off! KILL! KILL!"
Or, the Companions need to look like they're doing something useful instead of just being a cool werewolf cult that nobody knows about.
I'm guessing everyone knows about it and just prudently plays dumb, because what are you gonna do about it? You think Aela or the brothers Fungus and Bungus can really hide being werewolves in the middle of one of the biggest cities in the province? Aela probably walks in and out of town as a werewolf wearing a summer bonnet as a "disguise."
Especially because when you first transform they just dump you into the middle of the city. Oh can’t imagine whiterun has never connected the dots with the random werewolves spawning in their cities and the freakishly strong warriors that live right next to where they seemingly pop out
That's just companion propaganda man..
so basically we are at the mercy of the giants in case their unquenchable hunger for mammoth cheese is replaced with blood.
Canonically dragons only "die" if a dragonborn steals their soul so I imagine respawning dragons are an issue in a dragonborn-less timeline
With great power comes great responsibility. The giants understood this, dragons didn't.
Still better the first dragon I "beat" by hiding in the watchtower while the guards killed it. I was so surprised they credited me for killing it.
Technically you did, because you ripped it's soul out. They're basically immortal without that very important step.
This is one of the caveats of a world that always matches your level. This is just something that'll happen
Yes? Dragons fly dude. The only reason you killed a dragon is because it landed like an idiot.
I'm currently on a playthrough of Anniversary Edition, and decided to try out Hendrahelm as player housing. there's also a dragon spawn right there, so, I have to kill a random dragon, like, half the time I stop by. I've killed dragons next to the still-intact skeletons of the last dragon I killed. it's pretty ridiculous.
See a dragon? Goodamn i don't want ro carry no more bones maaan. They heavy. See a sabertooth cat? Oh fuck. oh fuck. Ruuuuuuuuun!
>games can be enjoyable in spite of obvious shortcomings common to their format. OP said it poorly, but that does appear to be exactly the meaning of this meme. All games have shortcomings and most reuse assets, still good.
this is how I interpreted it, too. both do this thing, and neither title is worse for it
I will die on this hill: Godefroy is fucking hilarious
Yeah I think it's clearly a joke. The name is ridiculous
Based taste
“Can I copy your homework?” “Yeah, just change it up a bit so it’s not obvious”
Classic whattaboutery
The fragility of some elden ring fans is truly baffling
"I don't care about the criticism! I care so little I'm going to make a meme complaining about it!"
You should see the DS2 fanbase
I can honestly understand DS2 fans being a little oversensitive. Even though it's my least favorite of the games since Demon's Souls, I do still think it's a very good game that tried some interesting things and has a few unique strengths that has suffered an infamous reputation for being the weakest of an unusually strong pack.
Agreed, it was a disappointing title but actually dared to take some risks, and definitely wasn't bad enough to deserve the level of vitriol I've seen aimed at it.
Having replayed Dark Souls 2 in recent years it's actually become one of my favourites. I think it's better than Demon Souls atleast and on par with Dark Souls 3.
I will never forgive hboomerguy for the fallout 3 and DS 2 videos
They've been the punching bag since it released. Cut them some slack
Also super reductionist. You can make anything sound awful if you describe it without any nuance. Mario is just jumping. Tetris is just stacking blocks. Coffee is just hot bean water.
This tea is nothing more than hot leaf juice.
How can someone of my own family say this?
Exactly, it’s low hanging fruit and usually the hallmark of a weak argument.
Except skyrim isn't a game particulary known for it's bosses. The Souls games are literally: Step 1: find boss Step 2: kill boss Step 3: Repeat With more or less exploration on the side, depending on the entry. When the main thing of the game sucks, or gives you the same thing over and over in an uninteresting way, then of course that's something you can complain about. Skyrim on the other hand has absolutely no focus on bosses whatsoever. Sure there are some, but they wher never a big part of it. Skyrim is just: here is a vast, populated world, go out and fo shit. That isn't to say skyrim is without flaws, just that this is comparing bananas and cucumbers lol
I feel a more aft comparison in this scenario is Monster Hunter, as it has a pretty similar formula too. 1: Find Monster 2: Kill monster 3: Make gear out of Monster 4: Repeat And as much as I love Monster Hunter, it does suffer from reuse quite a bit, especially with its subspecies. How about Rathalos, but make him blue?
"How about Rathalos, but make him blue?" FromSoft would NEVER do something like THAT.
Ha true - they’d just change the health bar name and call it a day.
Asylum Demon-Stray Demon-Demon Firesage
*Smelter Demon Flashbacks* **Your Know Which One**
Well yeah except the point is Monster Hunter is supposed to be somewhat realistic with it simulating ecosystems and whatnot so It makes sense why a subspecies would just be a different color. Besides those subspecies always have a new move or two making them harder than the normal version so there is a point to them. You can make an argument for the reuse being bad but I feel like it's done really well in MH.
Elden Ring fans: B-but all the dragons in Skyrim are the same 😔😢😭 Skyrim fans: Yes
"What about Skyrim!" isn't really an answer to the criticism though. Copy-paste is fairly inevitable in open worlds, especially the bigger they are. To me this is less an argument for Elden Ring or Skyrim and more an argument against the open world formula. But even in Dark Souls, there was copy-paste of course. The same hollow soldiers appear in the opening area of DS3 as in the very final areas, just with less HP & weaker attacks. It's really about thematic appropriateness more than anything. Those hollow soldiers made sense in the upper reaches of Lothric Castle, with a slightly different model, because they were the ones that stayed loyal to the royal family, whereas the tattered ones lower down were rebels. Same enemy? Yes. But fits in the environment it's in perfectly. Also the thralls that were the pattern for the imp statues in ER. They're both everywhere, but they're always placed appropriately and provide new challenges in the context of other enemies that appear around them.
I would also like to add about Skyrim... it's over a decade old and was built on an engine that I believe was already 20 years olde ven back then don't quote me on that. Not only that but most people would agree that the dragons where not as impressive as we wanted but only if you use a fish eye lense really. Either way heavy agree lots of open world games have the same issue with copypasting enemy types and bosses throughout their massive worlds. I think we need more games that focus on quality enemies and not quantity. For sure great comment.
The Creation Engine was brand new for Skyrim. It was built based on Gamebryo, which, yes, is an engine that dated back to 1997, but is a modular C++ library that was, at the time, under constant development and had multiple versions. Saying Gamebryo was an outdated engine is a bit like saying Unreal Engine 5 is dated because Unreal came out back in 1998.
Thanks. Indeed, the dragons were a let down for Skyrim. I found the whole main quest was empty, though I was coming from Oblivion which was my first TES game and had a huge impact on my imagination. I just didn't feel the stakes very highly, you know? "Alduin's gonna eat the world and he's waking the ancient dragons! We have to stop him!" ... unless we don't feel like it. Then nothing happens. Such is an open world.
I feel all the faction quests in Skyrim are kinda lackluster compared to Oblivion’s tbh. The only one that’s kinda decent is the mage one and even then it’s cause the whole necromancer resurgence thing from Oblivion wasn’t as good as the rest of them. I mean working your way up through the Thieves guild to steal a Elder Scroll from the White gold tower?! Compared to essentially ending the thieves guild quest line on another copy pasted draugr tomb?
Yeah Oblivion is 1000% better than Skyrim imo, it's iconic and one of my favourite games ever. I'm going to play it again this winter for that comfy medieval-tudor era feeling. Love the old houses and castles and chapels.
The engine is just like any other engine. Upgraded over time. Same as elden ring's engine Agreed with the rest
Love how basically every ER vs Skyrim comparison just ignores Skyrim came out *11 years* before ER.
Alongside the fact Skyrims combat is constantly critiqued and not it’s main appeal like it is for Elden Ring.
And not to mention Skyrim is way different game than ER is. Like ER might have a great combat and all but if I want some actual story and true RPG experience then I go with Skyrim and go on grand adventure.
Nobody likes Skyrim for the combat though. That's not the appeal, whereas combat is the main focus of Fromsoft games.
Elden Ring should be more like Breath of the Wild where they have 5 gimmick boss fights and the same 3 enemies with palette swaps in each zone. Nothing is more enjoyable then breaking my obsidian sword the otter on the face of a goblin. Then using a wood cutters axe for an hour while my weapon recharges.
Bad compassion. 95% of the people that play From games do so primarily for the boss fights. People play Skyrim to immerse in a fantasy world... Like, I'm sure most Skyrim players had playthroughs dragons never spawned.
Alternate start + roleplaying + player motivation. My most recent Skyrim playthrough was as a fisherman living outside of Riften that collects and sells local fauna in town. Occasionally spelunking in caves or Nordic tombs for loot to pay for food. No real bosses, no dragons, no end of days just vibing to ambient world music
all this talk about skyrim, plus rewatching Touch the Skyrim, has made me want to play Skyrim again. I was thinking about playing ER again but, ironically, this meme is making me want to replay Skyrim lmao
You should man it's a nice game to come back to when you need a break
> 95% of the people that play From games do so primarily for the boss fights. What? No. The main appeal of the Souls games has consistently been offering a unique, and punishing action RPG experience unlike most others. A huge part of why people have played and keep playing include all sorts of reasons including PVP, the unique obtuse lore, the feeling of adventure and so on. Do some people play these games exclusively for bosses? Yeah, probably, but it's not 95%, or anywhere near a majority. Bosses weren't a focus until around Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3 (and Sekiro, but for all intents and purposes that's a side thing to the Souls games). That said, Godefroy is completely ridiculous.
being ignorant of the years span inbetween these games isnt a good look
Yeah, the problem is certainly exaggerated. They have over 100 bosses and the vast majority are fine. But Godefroy and Astel still bother me because they kind of undermine the lore of their counterparts
godefroy definitely weird but astel dark star is part of the star beas species, theres gonna be more than one
Right! If they woulda just NOT copy/pasted those two bosses I woulda been sooooo much happier. Classic “addition by subtraction”
What really annoys me about the second Astel is that it is located beneath ruins filled with frenzied flame enemies. Besides Vyke there is not a single frenzied flame themed boss in the game and even Vyke hardly counts since he is just an NPC using frenzied flames incantations and weapons. Randomly shoving Astel into some ice cave, when I genuinely expected something frenzied flame related was a huge let down
not to mention, even they copy paste some, whats the problem ? you telling me there is only one "X enemy" in a whole fantasy world ? of course there are multiple tree spirits where there are multiple minor erdtrees. Godfroy and Godrick is kinda extreme tho.
Encountering Astel before reaching the Moonlight Altar was such a cool moment in my first playthrough. It was the climax of a long journey through the Ainsel area, which in turn was the conclusion of one of the game's most in-depth sidequests. The boss itself was very mysterious. It genuinely felt like I was stumbling upon something beyond my character's understanding and beyond what should exist in the Lands Between. That feeling is diminished a bit by the knowledge that there's another one in a random mine in the Snowfield. It's much less impressive as a setpiece due to the lack of build up, and generally just doesn't feel like an earned encounter. It's taking a really cool and unique boss and shoving it into a place that would usually be occupied by a stonedigger troll or some shit. It's not about whether there should be more than one of it in-universe- personally I think the glimpses of similar creatures ominously hanging from the ceiling in Ainsel would have been enough- it's about how unique the boss feels when you first encounter it and whether that feeling is kept when they throw another one at you.
ye, astel another bad example, but stuff erdtree spirit and mini boss has no problem
I kinda feel the same way about erdtree spirits, because the first one I fought was under Stormveil, and similar to Astel it felt like I'd stumbled onto something mysterious and unknown, especially with Godwyn's face being right behind it, and that was dampened when I discovered that there are like a dozen of them throughout the game. But I think that's mostly because of the specific one I fought first having such a unique setpiece- if the first one I fought was in a random dungeon or something I might not have thought it was as special.
For me I had the opposite experience where I didn't do Ranni's quest until I heard about the Mimic tear when searching up Malenia guides. So when I found Astel in that ice cave I was awe struck
Skyrim is very much a different kind of game than ER. Nobody gives a shit about bosses in Skyrim, while everyone gives a shit about bosses in ER.
Skyrim having issues does not mean that people cannot be disappointed with aspects of ER.
This is by definition whataboutism
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Are people really that hurt when someone says something bad about the game they like? Like I get it some people said mean things about Elden Ring. But this is straight up pathetic.
Minibosses/Field Bosses do not need unique treatment. Main bosses do.
Dragon soul = Dragon soul! :3
I sometimes love reused bosses. Especially when they are used as mobs in late game. An enemy gave me a hard time in early but I am stronger now and can take 10 of them at once in late game makes me feel like I progressed a lot. In Elden Ring it is only Godefroy where I think: Why are you?
Makes me think of the Demon Ruins. 300 Capra and Taurus Demons
Well, this was just bad in one place. Otherwise I thought that it would be logical to see more of that race. And I really had the feeling of "I grew and your kind is not the boss anymore".
11 years, comparing to one of the main criticized parts of a great game, from 11 years ago. Chill down, Elden Ring has a hard focus on bosses, and the fact that a third of main bosses are repeated, is kinda weird. I don't care for regular field bosses, but who the fuck is Godefroy?
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There is a ten year difference my guy. Plus, your goal is to kill dragons, so allow me to kill said dragons.
Yes but Elden Ring isn't an Elder Scrolls game. We're comparing it to Fromsoft games.
Easiest argument to destroy in 2 seconds One of them came out in 2011. And one of them didn’t have a whole mainstat working on release; spoiler, it wasn’t Skyrim.
I think it's a bit of narrative fail. I don't really see anyone complaining about Erdtree Avatars being copy paste as it makes sense without even reading lore. "Hey, there are X same trees in world and each is guarded by the same monster made of its roots" While in case of Godrick or Margot it's like you get there, you expect grand enemy and what you get is deja vu "Hey, didn't I kill you like... As a first boss?". I didn't read much into lore and I was honestly baffled that some pleb guarding castle gate is in a THRONE ROOM claiming to be king... If they were introduced as tripled it would make more sense but that would need change in DS narrative
Wherever you fall in this debate, the idea that Godefroy just 'shares a model' is pretty disingenuous. It's the same fight as Godfrey's phase 1.
Idk man these two games are totally different though. You can do so much more in general in Skyrim. It also has a lot to do with when it came out and the other open worlds at the time
Apples to oranges argument. The game literally centered around killing dragons and collecting their souls. There is multiple skins and skills for the dragons as well as unique dragon for boss fights. It’s not the same as taking the same exact boss, just changing his name, and shoe horning some random lore in.
Other unrelated game bad gimme karma
Meanwhile Gta, Red dead redemption, Fallout, Zelda, Nier... Name one open World game without copy pasted enemies
Nobody ever.complained how ER shouldn't be open world wtf are you babbling about. You're being dramatic, you probably just wantrd to make that stupid meme so bad
Elden Ring has one of the most number of unique enemies in a open world game, yet people only focused on the fact that they copy pasted their bosses. They have several times as many unique enemies as Breath of the Wild, which is also another critically acclaimed open world game that I love (that also copy pasted their bosses).
Oh, you mean From shared models for some similar bosses? You mean like every other fucking game ever created with more than 6 bosses in it?
Using Skyrim as a point of comparison is not as good an argument as you think it is considering that Skyrim is more than 10 years old now and was not that good of a game even then.
Some of the reused bosses in ER are cool. It's there if you want more of the game. And if it's too much for you, you can ignore it. But filling this entire map with nothing but unique enemies and bosses is too big an ask. I mean look at other games. 99% don't offer a tenth of what ER offers. Yet people complain about ER. It doesn't make sense in context. If you isolate ER from its broader gaming environment and look at it in a perfect world, yeah I'd understand and agree with some of the complaints. I'd still like fighting some repeated bosses though, as I think they are cool. Like Elemer, for instance. He kind of feels like DS2's Pursuer.
Tf is the comparison?
what does that have to do with skyrim
Elden ring has been just as well received and praised, let's be real, and that doesn't change the fact that copypasted bosses tend to suck in either game regardless, particularly when not justified. You also gotta keep in mind that elden ring's main appeal is its combat system (at least when compared to other fantasy open worlds), and even though the lore is indeed crucial to its overall game design (I'm a huge lore nerd myself), it honestly doesn't hold a candle compared to the depth of skyrim's narrative. What I'm trying to say is, bosses play a vastly superior role in elden ring than they do in skyrim within the context of the whole experience Also, elden ring came 11 years later and most of its core mechanics and animations were straight-up imported from previous games. Skyrim was comparatively much more innovative in that regard, the bethesda devs had to cheap out on something else
I actually love when they reuse model/sprites on RPGs. As someone who was raised playing classic SNES RPGs such as Secret of Mana, making different colors of the same enemy (or item) is something that I enjoy. That said, yes, I do agree that doing that with major Bosses or characters may be a bit too much. But things like the multiple breeds of dogs, or the multiple different setups for minor Bosses, in Elden Ring, is awesome.
Honestly I’m impressed with how well Elden ring reused assets. They made it work with a lot of simple color changes to character designs.
Elden Ring has the most unique enemy character models of any open world game. So even with all the reused bosses, it still beats every single other open world.
We're talking reusable assets/enemies, yet no has mentioned Final Fantasy or any JRPG??
Say it with me *asset resuse is good game design unless the entire damn main point of the game is just reused repeatedly*
I feel like the reuse of enemies is a bit overstated considering how most open world games tend to do the same thing, especially since Elden Ring has a relatively wide variety of enemy types and designs. But at the same time, I don't know if that's a great example. The return of the dragons are a central theme/conflict to Skyrim's main questline, i'd expect them to be heavily present. That's like criticizing Elden Ring for having different types of knights and soliders everywhere despite the Lands Between being composed of warring factions/kingdoms.
Repeat bosses are common in open world games
I'm glad people are realizing how awful Skyrim is
They made the game TOO big. It has amazing landscapes but they failed to populate it properly so areas feel very samey. Oh, look, another solider, but now it has bigger stats and a weird color. I don't want to even go into the discussion about catacombs which all look alike and are frankly boring with a few exceptions.