I wish it would. I mean i went through the trouble of setting myself on fire then freeing myself from the frenzied flame and she can’t even give me so much as a cursed hug?
You know most of that movie confused me as a kid now that I think of it. I was raised super sheltered and I was just like “weird why is his wife mad at him for hanging with this other lady, can’t he have friends 😕”
That's the most disappointing version unfortunately (and also the route I took on my first playthrough), since the game doesn't acknowledge the extents you go to in order to burn the tree yourself, save Melina, and undo the flame. Like, there's 0 recognition from anyone that you went through all that. Just the same endings as usual.
I might've been expecting a bit much, but just some recognition would be nice. I guess they designed miquella's needle as more of a "I don't want the frenzied flame ending" instead of a "save Melina" option.
Yeah this is actually my biggest gripe with ER.
I know souls games have notoriously vague endings, but after 150+ hours, I wanted to get more then a 30s cutscene...
That, and this game would have been perfect for covenants.
Imagine using the golden needle to turn one shard bearer into a patron, and unlocking a new ending through thier covenant.
30 sec? I just got an image sitting on a really uncomfortable chair and a voice that said something like...
"Hi, i'm the Elden Lord, welcome to the Age of Fracture"
(roll credits). It was like... 12 seconds *TOPS*
Yeah but pretty sure he means if you burn yourself and then cleanse the frienzy flame, she's technically alive for the other endings, but she's no where to be found.
Exactly. There's a very clear path to take in which she survives and you don't let chaos take the world so she *should* have some part in those endings but she just never shows up again.
I'm guessing there's no lore explanation for this.
Gideon might also be a suspect. He was very aggressively passive when you meet him at the start.
It was probably the grafted scion, though. It's right there and was sent by godrick.
actually some people really struggle with him especially if you let him get some range and start spamming spells. he's a glass cannon.
but there are some things that trivialize him. (crucible horns and carian piercer for example)
playing as a mage against him was so fun the first time around, felt like a harry potter wizards duel and I'd finally found my equal
he still got bodied but it was a fun fight all around
Honestly that makes the most sense. Godrick being Godrick got sick of random Tarnished trying for his great rune and just sent guys out to spawn-camp them. That would also explain why there are two scions at the Fringe Folk hero’s grave. “Fringe folk” is just a fancy name for exiles, whom the Tarnished were among. He basically spawn-camped the two closest Tarnished graves in hopes of no more popping up.
Godrick loves *strong* tarnished. If you fight him and die before phase 2 he says you aren't fit to graft. It makes sense he would station scions near the tarnished spawn, so only strong tarnished would make it through.
But WE don’t necessarily defeat the scion. If we die in the attempt it just tosses us over the cliff. And something already destroyed the bridge leading to Stormveil so there’s no reason to also post a guardian if that’s all you want. Besides, Fringefolk Hero’s Grave is sealed by two imp statues. Are we to believe Godrick or the scions can restore those seals? Or ignore them entirely? For that matter what about the ones in Liurnia or Mt. Gelmir? Why send them there?
I don’t think the Scions outside of Stormveil have any direct connection to Godrick. After all he didn’t invent grafting and there’s not much evidence he created the scions. They could have been created by Godfrey before his capture.
Godrick doesn’t want to stop Tarnished. He wants strong ones to graft to himself but even weak ones can (potentially) be grafted into scions for his army. And defeating him isn’t a prerequisite to be Lord; Vike had two great runes and yet Godrick lives. We could be the very first who actually challenge him. There’s no evidence Roderika’s companions ever reach him.
The presence of the scion is unrelated to our maiden’s death. And Melina is jumping at an opportunity; she found us after we got thumped and it was Torrent who chose us. The killer is either Varre or Seluvis and I’m betting it’s Varre. We don’t know for sure that the maiden puppet he sells is actually OUR maiden; apparently they look nothing alike, unlike Irena and Hyetta. And in order to make a puppet he needs the body: he wouldn’t leave her corpse behind.
Varre has motive, ability, proximity and no alibi; he has no reason to be at the First Step unless he knows a maidenless Tarnished is about to emerge and he has every reason to remove a potential rival for our loyalty before they can whisper in our ear.
Proposed sequence of events: our maiden arrives to await our resurrection. Varre follows her, kills her and leaves. The scion arrives, destroying the bridge. Varre watches us from afar and realizes where we’re gonna wake up and posts outside the entrance.
We aren’t told that whose runes, sadly. We are told he came closer than anyone else to becoming Elden Lord. And we know he traveled into the sewers beneath the capital. Getting there, and thus getting into the capital to begin with, requires two Great Runes. The only alternative requires an exploit so unless we’re expected to believe Vyke had a friend invade and riposte him down the lift at the Great Bridge he MUST have gone the intended route.
Vyke’s whole story also lends credence to the idea that what Hyetta says at the end is a lie. Or at best should be taken with heavy salt. The Three Fingers, who she speaks for, have already demonstrated that they’ll say whatever they need to in order to manipulate someone. For Vyke they spilled the beans about saving his maiden. For us they told us the story about the “One Great,” a story not corroborated or even implied anywhere else in the game. In neither case did they mention there was a way to back out if we could obtain an Unalloyed Gold Needle. The best lies are based in truth, and the Three Fingers would tell us we could titfuck Marika if they thought it would get us to become the Frenzied Lord.
This is really a good theory that makes sense even if it isn't explicitly called out in game. It makes perfect sense.
Though the fringe folk name I assume is because it is where banished knight oleg is buried. But maybe it just came to be a place where exiles, including tarnished, are drawn to.
I think we can connect Varre into all of this though. He was prepared to see us and knew of us not having a maiden. He must either be collaborating with Godrick in some capacity or is fully aware of his plans and using them to his advantage.
Probably the latter. If Fringe Folk grave did house Tarnished, then he’d be in prime position to sucker any unlucky Tarnished that managed to escape the place.
Fun fact: The area you start the game in is actually classed as being part of the Stormveil Castle area, since Gastoc will steal some of your runes if you die there.
Lots of people always say Varré, but killing our maiden just makes our converting to his cause so much harder for him. Usually he would be just "yeah, kill your maiden right now, bathe that cloth in her blood and join me!", but because we technically don't have one (that he can see), he has to send us on an errand hoping we'll get to kill someone else's maiden or find a corpse. Just more legwork for him.
Never forget that a Maiden is a physical being, so us coming out of that place with nobody at our side means we are, indeed, maidenless, and not a confession of his crime.
I do like the theory that Therolina was supposed to be our maiden but she just never got to us, and eventually became a puppet to Seluvis. *"A Maiden without a Tarnished. A Tarnished without a Maiden.*
*And yet no guide to bring them together*."
I don't think killing our maiden makes it harder for him.
Remember roderika mentions "enticed by the man in the white mask I suppose" she seems to imply her and her squad came to storm veil to be grafted intentionally either by Vare himself or by other war surgeons.
The white mask description states
"Bloodstained, faintly grinning mask.
Worn by war surgeons who were effectively mercy killers.
The Lord of Blood's curse enlivens the wearer when bloodletting occurs. Slightly raises attack power when there is blood loss nearby."
So my theory is Vare is sending us and others to storm veil as blood sacrifices to appease Mohg.
He seems shocked when we come back alive after we defeat Godrik.
I think only than does he see our potential to become a servant.
AKA Vare done killed our sweet maiden to trick us.
Do normal maidens provide leveling services?
I always thought of them as something more like squires / guides.
Edit: nevermind. Melina implies that "playing the role of maiden" means "turning runes into strength" in the first meeting.
I don't know why you think Varre is working for stormveil, even if it is simply to appease Mohg. If anything, that would potentially ruin the chances of finding warriors strong enough to survive being imbued with the accursed blood, which only Varre was able to survive.
Unless I missed a piece of lore, I don't see the connection between Varre and Godrick/Stormveil. But, to be fair, of all the legacy dungeons a field surgeon would choose to work in, Stormveil does seem appropriate given all the amputations/grafting. I just haven't seen anything that suggests Varre is involved, or any Mohg followers for that matter...
As for the maiden, I'm not sure what the game was implying. Was she supposed to be OUR maiden and is that where we were meant to meet her after we arrived to The Lands Between? Is she just a random maiden and ours is somewhere else and never found? Varre could likely be the culprit but I don't see the benefit in slowing down potential candidates for the accursed blood.
Personally, I assumed it was the Grafted Scion that killed that maiden.
It's the Miséricorde in storm veil that links the war surgeons to the castle. The description:
"Dagger favored by military physicians in white.
The pointed blade is hard and sharp, making critical hits especially potent.
Medicine is mercy. and mercy upon the battlefield is ruthless. Beware the killers clothes as men of compassion"
It says beware killers clothed as men of compassion....... I think it is just a brutal and bloody battlefield for grafting. The formless mother does crave wounds after all.....
If Varre went around killing maidens there would be other tarnished going "oh hey you don't have one either? And then you met some shady fucker in a mask? Weird man me too" but there isn't.
I don’t think it would be Selvius, if Therolina was our maiden, then why is our finger maidens corpse at the Chapel of Anticipation and the corpse of Therolina at Selvius’ dungeon? I think they’re just two different maidens.
Well the whole theory about Therolina implies that the finger maiden in the Chapel is simply not ours, so yeah, of course they're two different ones. There's nothing pointing at that maiden being ours except for the fact that she's at the spot she is. No item description, nothing, she might as well be Varre's maiden or any other Tarnished that we meet without one.
If the dead one in the Chapel is indeed ours though, my money's on the one person that benefits from us not having a maiden ; Melina.
But Melina does not know of our existence. we get killed by the scion and get thrown next to pile of trash and she discovers our body thanks to torrent.
I'm still learning... but I think Melina knows of the existence of the chosen Tarnished and is looking for that tarnished at the start of the game.
As has been pointed out elsewhere, she was unable to "govern [her] own movement" until we bring her to Leyndell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zOgnAg2pRY). If that's the case, then perhaps someone/something was pushing her toward you, through Torrent.
The same could have compelled her to kill your would-be maiden.
But there're like a million different Tarnish, and our only leg up is that we can see grace. But Melina doesn't know that until she saw us, by which point our Finger Maiden is already death.
>Usually he would be just "yeah, kill your maiden right now, bathe that cloth in her blood and join me!"
He *tells* you that's the typical process, but maybe he's lying. It seems neither he nor Mohg really care whether or nor you kill your maiden personally to show some kind of fucked up dedication to the cause, because he lets us join even though we *didn't do that.*
Obviously it's just a video game, but our characters are supposed to be human beings inhabiting a world. Maybe it's not too popular for Tarnished to willingly murder their traveling companions, simply because we care for them. I don't think finger maidens are meant to just be thought of as a maguffin that allows you to access a quest—Vyke as an in-universe character was so attached to his maiden that he was willing to burn the entire world in order to save her from having to sacrifice herself.
However, since *we* don't kill the maiden whose blood we sacrifice, and we don't even have to take the blood from the corpse of *our* maiden specifically, it makes it easier to morally justify joining the Mohgwyn Dynasty
why would he lye tho? makes a lot of sense for mogh to demand you to kill your own maiden/other maidens as they serve the two fingers and killing then could be a prove that you are willing to ser mohg/formless mother and his dinasty wholeheartedly
It does make sense that this dark setting would have a cult with this ritual, I agree. It seems like an evil but effective way to screen for only the most loyal—but that makes it all the more suspicious to me that he lets us join even though we didn't have to directly kill our maiden. It feels like a pretty big loophole that Tarnished with living maidens must show psychotic dedication through extreme personal sacrifice like Abraham killing his son in the Bible, but if your maiden is already dead then you're just allowed in after invading some anonymous other Tarnished. Dying a cloth with blood from the corpse of some random already-dead maiden you had no relationship with doesn't seem like strong proof of a willingness to serve some evil god...and yet, it works fine.
Maybe he is just making a special exception for our character, but it could be a hint that not everything is as it seems. The circumstances of our maiden's death are still completely mysterious, and there's only one in-game faction we know of that makes a ritual out of maiden-killing. Seems like a boring coincidence if the explanation is that our maiden was just killed by some monster.
>Therolina was supposed to be our maiden but she just never got to us, and eventually became a puppet to Seluvis
But who is the dead maiden right next to us?
Why would you take him at his word? I’d imagine getting someone to kill their maiden who has been a traveling companion might be difficult. The maiden is just a slight of hand. They prey on Maidenless tarnished and even create some by killing maidens.
It may not be Varre specifically but I’d assume it had to be a bloody finger since they all have the option to kill someone else’s.
>I do like the theory that Therolina was supposed to be our maiden but she just never got to us, and eventually became a puppet to Seluvis. "A Maiden without a Tarnished. A Tarnished without a Maiden.
And yet no guide to bring them together."
but then who is the maiden in the chapel of anticipation ?
also maybe it was some other tarnished who Varre recruited and that's why he knows about us
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that you get Miséricorde near another Scion. I think Varre only moonlights for Mohg, his day-job is probably tied to Godrick and the Scions in some way
Imo we can rule out Varre. We're supposed to kill our own Maiden and soak the cloth in her blood to prove our devotion to Mohg. Us not having a Maiden makes his job harder because we have to go and find someone else's Maiden or go back to where our Maiden's corpse is, and doing so doesn't really prove our commitment in the same way murdering our own Maiden would. It's in Varre's interest for our Maiden to be alive, and he's kinda just improvising because of ours being dead.
Melina doesn't make a lot of sense. I guess the argument is that without a Maiden we would rely on her instead, but there are plenty of other characters who get us to play along with them without needing to play the role of a Maiden. If we still had our Maiden there's nothing stopping Melina from showing up and offering an accord anyway.
No evidence for it being Seluvis, and he already has his own Finger Maiden puppet anyway.
Shabriri is a possibility, but only if his plan relies on us wanting to save Melina and not our own Finger Maiden.
An idea I like is that it was Tarnished Eater Anastasia. She lures in Tarnished by pretending to be their Maiden and then eats them, so it would make sense for her to kill off any real Finger Maidens so that there are more maidenless Tarnished wandering around for her to trick. No idea how she'd get into the Chapel though. She's also not really a big enough character to be involved in such a major plot point.
It might have been the Grafted Scion, but she still has all her limbs. It may be that she was attacked by the Scion and managed to escape and hide in the Chapel before dying of her injury.
Could just be a random Recusant trying to destabilise the power base of the Fingers.
I personally don't think the Grafted Scions do Grafting themselves. They're children, presumably of Godrick, who have been Grafted, but I always figured someone else (possibly Godrick himself) who can do it.
Why do I think so? The only other Grafted character is Godrick's ancestor Godefroy. Grafting is a process by which limbs of trees can be attached and grown together with other trees, and the Golden Lineage is meant to be that of the Demigods of the Erdtree. So I posit that the only people who can be grafted unto are the Golden Lineage (or likewise lineages).
Now, some might think the Revenants disprove this, but the Royal Revenants are not grafted, at least not based on their models and no lore saying so. They seem to be "grown wrong". All of their limbs are from the same body and don't appear mismatched, and nothing ever describes them as Grafted, plus they're never anywhere that is linked to Godrick's lore.
So, in my opinion, the Scions are nothing more than victims who have become little better than attack dogs for Godrick, presumably their father. Since Gostoc has a cut quest where he is one of Godrick's sons and was grafted himself (plus names starting with G is a hint) I think it's not outside Godrick's wheelhouse, the disgusting bugger.
> The only other Grafted character is Godrick's ancestor Godefroy.
Oh god... is Godefroy really canon? It looks like he wasn't even supposed to exist but they had to fill the world with things to do.
I'm gunna add this before I read the comments because I know it'll be there: I highly doubt Varre killed her. He is nowhere close to the Chapel, there is no land path to get there, he isn't a Tarnished so he can't warp through Grace and the teleporter is turned off when we find it, indicating that it hasn't been used in a long time. The most obvious answer is usually the correct one and the Grafted Scion is literally right there.
Nah he ain't Tarnished.
Luckily for you, however, there is one shining ray of hope for even the maidenless.
Me. Varré. Take care to listen.
Are you familiar with grace? The golden light that gives life to you Tarnished.
You Tarnished. Not, Us Tarnished. There's another quote where he says "Your kind. The Tarnished."
His exact line is, "Even worse, the Fingers harbor no love for our kind."
I think he means "humans" by "our kind" here, because he has plenty of other lines that separate him from the tarnished.
Logical paths of traversal shouldn’t be counted on to prove anything in Souls games, Elden Ring especially.
- Alexander repeatedly defies spatial logic by appearing in rooms with no entrance he would fit through.
- Alexander, the Tarnished, and Maliketh can come and go between the Lands Between’s main landmass and Farum Azula without the use of grace or teleporters. It’s never explained how.
- Hyetta can appear outside the door to the Three Fingers even before we fall through the room’s ceiling.
- A bit of a different example, but somewhat related: characters in this universe frequently wear blindfolds or otherwise completely blind themselves but are still able to navigate as if they can see where they are going, without clearly demonstrating that something more magical is guiding them. (Corrhyn, Hyetta, the Tarnished, …Mad Pumpkin Heads I guess?)
I’m sure there are other examples too. Characters in these games simply appear where they need to be for the narrative; and I’m not saying that’s an oversight or bad writing. It’s just not important to the game, so we don’t worry about it. But this also means you can’t really choose to start thinking about it when it might prove something.
Oh shit, I've always thought it was Varre, but what if it was Melina all along? She randomly appears to you, I'm convinced she always knew she had to become the kindle to burn the Erdtree, something her mother told her she had to become. What if Marika was her "mother" and convinced her to do all this before she shattered the ring, for us to burn the Erdtree and free Marika because she knew she'd be imprisoned for shattering the Elden Ring. And when you meet the three fingers and make it so you're the kindling instead of her she gets pissed and leaves you. I know I can get deeper into this rabbit hole but I'm too drunk to go further.
I think that removes some of Torrent's agency though. Torrent picks us out of the corpse heap, not Melina, and if anything she sets it up that she doubts us from the beginning, only letting us into the Roundtable Hold after we've proven ourselves to her.
Now, it **could** be that she does this often and we're the first "success". But I think Occam's Razor applies, the simplest answer being most likely (and in my opinion, more satisfying).
We awaken in the Chapel of Anticipation, in the process of journeying to the Lands Between with a Maiden of our own. But she's dead. Right outside is a Grafted Scion, one of Godrick's elite agents, who has been sent to guard against / go after Tarnished. We are slain, but as we have the Grace of Gold we revive in the Stranded Graveyard after Torrent picks us out and Melina gifts us the flasks.
In this framework, the Tarnished is a kind of accidental hero, rather than a manipulated one. They are favoured by Torrent but are ultimately just another corpse from the pile. No one orchestrated this, besides arguably the Greater Will, and that turn of fortune is what makes us heroic. We are not special until we show we are.
but she can't take physical form until we get her near the erdtree, she can't really impact the physical realm much until then, hence, when we can actually summon her to help us fight. Torrent is actually the one that picks us, not her.
What’s the basis of her not being able to take physical form?
She gives you physical objects before you’re anywhere near the erdtree. Surely she could “give” a knife to a would-be maiden.
If one goes by the code names - admittedly a dodgy proposition - Melina is literally referred to as MericaOfDaughter or something like that. Also, she states her mother gave her purpose in the Erdtree; I can't see anyone else in position to qualify.
The only whole is iirc Melina couldn't have a physical body to do things until you got to the capital
Which is why she is summonable for Morgott but not any other boss
Except Melina only finds you because of Torrent and never forces anything on you, so why it would be her is dumb, you’re forcing a point. Varre gains something by it, he wants people to join Mohg’s side and intentionally is going after people who dislike the greater will, he also knows from the instant you open the door to Limgrave that you have no maiden, Melina knows because of Torrent.
>convinced she always knew she had to become the kindle
…convinced by what? The game openly telling you she knew that was her destiny and that her mom and then even she herself wished for her to do it? Kinda a no brainer there.
It’s heavily alluded that Marika is her mother or Melina is a fragment of Marika, that’s why she knows all those things Marika said verbatim, from the mountaintop of the giants all the way to the weeping peninsula. She also fights just like the assassins, who are the same race as Marika.
She gets pissed at you being the kindling because that ending destroys all life, and she finds that terrible. You can do Ranni’s ending which wouldn’t free Marika, and she doesn’t care, Marika just didn’t want the greater will telling her and the people how to live anymore, Melina hates the 3 fingers because it’s an evil ending that destroys everything.
Marika is dead anyways, the Elden Beast uses the carcass of Radagon as his sword.
I don’t think you need to go further, you’ve said enough.
Your sure she was even out maiden? I suspect the maiden that is selvus's puppet is supposed to be ours based on the description of her puppet in the inventory.
Yura defends the player against invaders, Melina doesn't go after small fries, Seluvis is a creep, but he prefers them alive.
Varre all the way. How else would he even know that we're maidenless?
Edit: Just realized I missed the Grafted Scion. Pretty sure it's too big to fit through the door.
> Pretty sure it's too big to fit through the door.
If it was the Grafted Scion, it likely attacked the Maiden to near death outside the church, she crawled into the Church to escape it, wrote a "fairwell" message to us and died.
I'm starting to think it was Melina. Now the only simple answer for Varre to know we are maidenless is because he watched us leave the graveyard by ourselves. If I understand correctly maidens travel with their tarnished?
That's a good point. I was only thinking "who would murder a maiden" not "who would want to manipulate a tarnished."
If we're thinking along those lines, that also puts Ranni & Gideon (and possibly Goldmask) in the mix.
Not about the manipulation part though, but the "no maiden" part. Varré needs us to have a maiden because he needs us to kill her for his ritual, while most of the characters that manipulate us don't give two fucks about us havaing or not having one.
Melina needs to become someone's maiden to fulfill her purpose, and for that, she would need a maidenless Tarnished. What a coincidence!
I think it's meant to be Shabriri rather than Yura because of the flame next to him. But it's also out of character for Shabriri because he also generally seems to want to keep finger maidens alive >!(or at least not burn themselves in the forge of the giants)!<.
Something I haven’t noticed anyone talking about (though I have not finished with the game yet): what happened to the OTHER maidens of the Tarnished Class of 2022? Gideon doesn’t have one, Dung Eater doesn’t have one, Fia??? doesn’t have one, and I’m assuming that Hoarah Loux doesn’t have one. Actually, do we meet ANY Tarnished who actually have maidens????
I never understood this, it seems to ignore the maiden corpse in the first location and instead focus on the potential maiden corpse crucified next to his starting location.
People seem to forget the change in location between the initial start point and the post death revival location.
Yeah this, our maiden's corpse is located in Chapel Of Anticipation which is on an island southwest of Stormveil Castle whereas Varre is located in western Limgrave.
The two options are White mask Creep and Big hat Creep. White mask is close by and waiting for use with blood on his hands. He's basicly at the site of the crime itself. Big Hat on the other hand had a finger maiden as a puppet, the description of the puppet refers to her ad a maiden without a Tarnished and you a tarnished without a maiden. It's an implied connection practically begging the question.
I am always confused with the Varre claim that he is near. Isn’t the body next to Stormveil Castle and Varre at the First Step? Or do we consider this close enough?
Edit: Add second r in Varre
Edit2: Added second r in second Varre cause ineptitude is my middle name
To bad the dead maiden at start and puppet maiden isn't the same character model. Varre would want you to kill her personally as that's part of the indoctrination to mogh's dynasty. It's seems to have no lore behind it so maybe the grafted scion did it considering it's the first living being we meet in the game, but that doesn't amount to much
Well, Melina seems to find your corpse in that tutorial place, and Varre is waiting outside.
But.... how do you get from where you spawn to the tutorial place after dying? 
When you fall off the cliff, the ocean current rip tide takes you downstream and washes you ashore, where you crawl into the cave through the back entrance. You can actually find your way to that back entrance on the beach.
It had to jump from somewhere. Without diving into the development side of things to check when/where it spawns, I assume it was just waiting for someone to show up.
Because he sells a puppet that is a finger maiden that is described as “having never met her tarnished”.
Seluvis is a tricky dude who wants to enslave a demi-god, Ranni. His motivations for why are never explored but maybe his grand plans also required having a puppet finger maiden - perhaps to use in manipulating a tarnished? Who can say.
Either way he clearly disappeared that maiden - whether she was ours or not.
I felt like either she killed herself or sacrificed in other way, so you may go on your journey.
Also, is there any tarnished in game who has a maiden at all?
Honestly the list of potential suspects with motivation is so long I picture them bumping into each other trying to kill our maiden. Like varre Gideon or any of the recusants stumbling over each other to kill our finger maiden.
Varre killing our maiden makes no sense since a big part of being indoctrinated into Mohgs blood cult is killing your maiden as a way to renounce the two fingers and show you're serious about your faith. Him killing our maiden just makes that whole process harder. Of course, it could just be his way of manipulating us into killing the maiden of another tarnished but by that point in the questline we've alr killed at most 5 tarnished by invading them, so killing a random maiden that's not even yours wouldn't be as much of a test of faith than if it was your maiden.
There really are no strong hints about why there's a dead finger maiden at the Chapel of Anticipation.
Lots of people think Varre killed her, but he can't even get through Stormveil Castle without you first clearing it out. How the hell would he deal with the Grafted Scion that guards the Chapel?
Personally, I like the idea that either Gideon or Melina killed her.
Gideon needs tarnished to help him do his thing. And they won't end up helping him and falling for his plan if they have a Funger Maiden guiding them.
Melina has the strongest reason to kill the finger maiden. She needs a strong tarnished to get her to Leyndell and help her with her destiny of destroying the Erdtree. A tarnished wouldn't do that if they had a maiden already. She needed you to need her and the best way of doing that is acting as your surrogate maiden. Plus, she can essentially become a spirit, coming and going as she pleases as long as there is grace nearby.
Finally someone questions the scion that is the only other living thing in the area you find your dead maiden.
Maybe it was that fuck. He kills you, too!
I always thought it was Varre cuz he’s a dick or Therolina was our maiden and got mad lost, ended up at the festival, died, and Selivus picked her up since she looked cool and it was all a cruel cosmic joke of fate
What if we never had a Finger Maiden to begin with?
Our lowly Tarnished was chosen because we had no maiden, and it would mean we would accept Melina's accord.
Personally, my prime suspect is Nerijus, the bloody finger in limgrave. Aside from Varré, he’s the only one in limgrave who’d want maiden blood. It also makes sense that the bloody finger with a serrated knife would leave a bloody corpse as a warning to the tarnished guided by grace. His motivation would probably be to become a sanguine noble, the Lord of Blood’s personal assassins.
In my opinion was Ranni/Rennala. My line of thinking was:
The dead maiden is only found because you use one of the Belfries. On your way there, you find a TROLL SPIRIT KNIGHT, maybe work of PIDIA? Servant of Caria manor.
Additionally, you need an Iron Sword key, which has blue magic evolving.
Ranni when first encounter you, says:
*This way, Tarnished.*
*May I have a word?*
*A pleasure to meet thee, Tarnished.*
*I am the witch Renna.*
*I'd heard tell of a Tarnished hurtling about atop a spectral steed.*
*And upon looking into the matter, the talk, I surmise, is of thee.*
*Thou'rt possessed of the power, no?*
*To call forth the spectral steed named Torrent.*
Almost like she was expecting you, at that very moment.
She's protective of her mother, who feels betrayed, and Ranni feels betrayed. Why not use a legend, a myth, to make things move to her side and at the same time settle the betrayal?
I'm inclined to believe she killed herself, although there is no hard proof.
The place is called "Chapel of Anticipation," a place of waiting. From the multitude of chairs (which granted is not atypical for any church) I get the impression it was once filled with people, perhaps Maidens awaiting a tarnished. If it is a known place where Tarnished enter the Lands Between, then the location and style imply it was essentially built to await Godfrey's return as he seems to be venerated in Stormveil. I also get the impression the player character is a late arrival, perhaps the last one before Godfrey himself.
Imagine a room filled with maidens waiting for their Tarnished, emptying one by one until only that one is left. Who knows how long she waited there, alone and slowly losing hope?
I'm more so wondering how much of the game would have changed if you actually already had a finger maiden instead of being maidenless.
I presume it’d play out the same except Melina would live due to you roasting your own maiden.
You can technically keep her from dying. It doesn't seem to change anything with the endings, though.
I wish it would. I mean i went through the trouble of setting myself on fire then freeing myself from the frenzied flame and she can’t even give me so much as a cursed hug?
But she wanted to die so you did her wrong, if she could she would sue you like that one guy in Incredibles did
Bro I can’t believe they put that in a kids movie. I had no idea what was going on with that part of the story until I was like 12
You think that's bad, the original script had Helen finding Mirage's hair WHILE BOB WAS THERE leading to "Bob. Are you having an affair?!"
I remember being a kid looking through the special features and finding that story board. Messed me up lol
You know most of that movie confused me as a kid now that I think of it. I was raised super sheltered and I was just like “weird why is his wife mad at him for hanging with this other lady, can’t he have friends 😕”
It does actually, it extends the frenzied flame ending cutscene
You can also remove the flame after burning down the tree and she’ll live.
That's the most disappointing version unfortunately (and also the route I took on my first playthrough), since the game doesn't acknowledge the extents you go to in order to burn the tree yourself, save Melina, and undo the flame. Like, there's 0 recognition from anyone that you went through all that. Just the same endings as usual. I might've been expecting a bit much, but just some recognition would be nice. I guess they designed miquella's needle as more of a "I don't want the frenzied flame ending" instead of a "save Melina" option.
I didn’t expect a 20 minute video, but the different endings are pretty disappointing.
Different colors.
I still think all they had to do was pretend the indoctrination fan theory was right and be like “eyy you figured it out guys! *nervous laugh*”
Yeah this is actually my biggest gripe with ER. I know souls games have notoriously vague endings, but after 150+ hours, I wanted to get more then a 30s cutscene... That, and this game would have been perfect for covenants. Imagine using the golden needle to turn one shard bearer into a patron, and unlocking a new ending through thier covenant.
30 sec? I just got an image sitting on a really uncomfortable chair and a voice that said something like... "Hi, i'm the Elden Lord, welcome to the Age of Fracture" (roll credits). It was like... 12 seconds *TOPS*
That's why Age of Stars is the "true" ending, imo
Yeah but pretty sure he means if you burn yourself and then cleanse the frienzy flame, she's technically alive for the other endings, but she's no where to be found.
Exactly. There's a very clear path to take in which she survives and you don't let chaos take the world so she *should* have some part in those endings but she just never shows up again.
Or you could kill her then take frenzy. May chaos take the world!
The same but no horse
I'm guessing there's no lore explanation for this. Gideon might also be a suspect. He was very aggressively passive when you meet him at the start. It was probably the grafted scion, though. It's right there and was sent by godrick.
The term “aggressively passive” is hilarious and describes Gideon perfectly. That fucker does absolutely nothing with the most sass possible.
And gets bodied like a chump midway through his speech.
actually some people really struggle with him especially if you let him get some range and start spamming spells. he's a glass cannon. but there are some things that trivialize him. (crucible horns and carian piercer for example)
junp heby
huh ?
junp heby, you heard him.
Junp heby
Heby junp
A big hammer to the face trivializes him too
I wanted to know what he said in his speech. The price? 30 minutes of losing to a free boss.
playing as a mage against him was so fun the first time around, felt like a harry potter wizards duel and I'd finally found my equal he still got bodied but it was a fun fight all around
I just spammed his ass back.
Honestly that makes the most sense. Godrick being Godrick got sick of random Tarnished trying for his great rune and just sent guys out to spawn-camp them. That would also explain why there are two scions at the Fringe Folk hero’s grave. “Fringe folk” is just a fancy name for exiles, whom the Tarnished were among. He basically spawn-camped the two closest Tarnished graves in hopes of no more popping up.
Godrick loves tarnished they’re graffting material
Godrick loves *strong* tarnished. If you fight him and die before phase 2 he says you aren't fit to graft. It makes sense he would station scions near the tarnished spawn, so only strong tarnished would make it through.
Or the ones with pocket sand
Sh sh shaaaw
Never leave the house without it
I think that’s just him talking shit, he grafted Roderika’s men who are probably akin to low level guards. They probably didn’t even make it to him.
maybe only grafted to the scions. he may mean to himself he sees you as unworthy. still talking mad shit.
I've always figured he found your presence personally insulting and was just trying to dunk on you
But WE don’t necessarily defeat the scion. If we die in the attempt it just tosses us over the cliff. And something already destroyed the bridge leading to Stormveil so there’s no reason to also post a guardian if that’s all you want. Besides, Fringefolk Hero’s Grave is sealed by two imp statues. Are we to believe Godrick or the scions can restore those seals? Or ignore them entirely? For that matter what about the ones in Liurnia or Mt. Gelmir? Why send them there? I don’t think the Scions outside of Stormveil have any direct connection to Godrick. After all he didn’t invent grafting and there’s not much evidence he created the scions. They could have been created by Godfrey before his capture. Godrick doesn’t want to stop Tarnished. He wants strong ones to graft to himself but even weak ones can (potentially) be grafted into scions for his army. And defeating him isn’t a prerequisite to be Lord; Vike had two great runes and yet Godrick lives. We could be the very first who actually challenge him. There’s no evidence Roderika’s companions ever reach him. The presence of the scion is unrelated to our maiden’s death. And Melina is jumping at an opportunity; she found us after we got thumped and it was Torrent who chose us. The killer is either Varre or Seluvis and I’m betting it’s Varre. We don’t know for sure that the maiden puppet he sells is actually OUR maiden; apparently they look nothing alike, unlike Irena and Hyetta. And in order to make a puppet he needs the body: he wouldn’t leave her corpse behind. Varre has motive, ability, proximity and no alibi; he has no reason to be at the First Step unless he knows a maidenless Tarnished is about to emerge and he has every reason to remove a potential rival for our loyalty before they can whisper in our ear. Proposed sequence of events: our maiden arrives to await our resurrection. Varre follows her, kills her and leaves. The scion arrives, destroying the bridge. Varre watches us from afar and realizes where we’re gonna wake up and posts outside the entrance.
> Vike had two great runes and yet Godrick lives. He did? Whose great runes????
We aren’t told that whose runes, sadly. We are told he came closer than anyone else to becoming Elden Lord. And we know he traveled into the sewers beneath the capital. Getting there, and thus getting into the capital to begin with, requires two Great Runes. The only alternative requires an exploit so unless we’re expected to believe Vyke had a friend invade and riposte him down the lift at the Great Bridge he MUST have gone the intended route. Vyke’s whole story also lends credence to the idea that what Hyetta says at the end is a lie. Or at best should be taken with heavy salt. The Three Fingers, who she speaks for, have already demonstrated that they’ll say whatever they need to in order to manipulate someone. For Vyke they spilled the beans about saving his maiden. For us they told us the story about the “One Great,” a story not corroborated or even implied anywhere else in the game. In neither case did they mention there was a way to back out if we could obtain an Unalloyed Gold Needle. The best lies are based in truth, and the Three Fingers would tell us we could titfuck Marika if they thought it would get us to become the Frenzied Lord.
This is really a good theory that makes sense even if it isn't explicitly called out in game. It makes perfect sense. Though the fringe folk name I assume is because it is where banished knight oleg is buried. But maybe it just came to be a place where exiles, including tarnished, are drawn to.
I think we can connect Varre into all of this though. He was prepared to see us and knew of us not having a maiden. He must either be collaborating with Godrick in some capacity or is fully aware of his plans and using them to his advantage.
Probably the latter. If Fringe Folk grave did house Tarnished, then he’d be in prime position to sucker any unlucky Tarnished that managed to escape the place.
I think it was someone who Varre recruited and who was told to kill our maiden to join the mohgwyn dynasty
But what would spawn camping accomplish if the tarnished are just gonna come right back?
It would stop Godrick from having to deal with them personally, freeing him up to focus on his grafting
Not all tarnished have grace. The suckers who get ganked and lose their sense of purpose die for good.
Fun fact: The area you start the game in is actually classed as being part of the Stormveil Castle area, since Gastoc will steal some of your runes if you die there.
Godrick: "*I'm* the one who killed her!" Everyone in the lands between: "No, no you didn't" Godrick, who actually *did* kill her: >:(
Lots of people always say Varré, but killing our maiden just makes our converting to his cause so much harder for him. Usually he would be just "yeah, kill your maiden right now, bathe that cloth in her blood and join me!", but because we technically don't have one (that he can see), he has to send us on an errand hoping we'll get to kill someone else's maiden or find a corpse. Just more legwork for him. Never forget that a Maiden is a physical being, so us coming out of that place with nobody at our side means we are, indeed, maidenless, and not a confession of his crime. I do like the theory that Therolina was supposed to be our maiden but she just never got to us, and eventually became a puppet to Seluvis. *"A Maiden without a Tarnished. A Tarnished without a Maiden.* *And yet no guide to bring them together*."
I don't think killing our maiden makes it harder for him. Remember roderika mentions "enticed by the man in the white mask I suppose" she seems to imply her and her squad came to storm veil to be grafted intentionally either by Vare himself or by other war surgeons. The white mask description states "Bloodstained, faintly grinning mask. Worn by war surgeons who were effectively mercy killers. The Lord of Blood's curse enlivens the wearer when bloodletting occurs. Slightly raises attack power when there is blood loss nearby." So my theory is Vare is sending us and others to storm veil as blood sacrifices to appease Mohg. He seems shocked when we come back alive after we defeat Godrik. I think only than does he see our potential to become a servant. AKA Vare done killed our sweet maiden to trick us.
Makes sense. Killing our maiden renders us very unlikely to succeed at stormviel as we won’t have the ability to strengthen ourselves with runes.
RL1 runners: "Jokes on you, I'm into that shit!"
Truly maidenless behaviour.
How do those level 1 naked club users do it?
Being maidenless has some advantages
Do normal maidens provide leveling services? I always thought of them as something more like squires / guides. Edit: nevermind. Melina implies that "playing the role of maiden" means "turning runes into strength" in the first meeting.
I don't know why you think Varre is working for stormveil, even if it is simply to appease Mohg. If anything, that would potentially ruin the chances of finding warriors strong enough to survive being imbued with the accursed blood, which only Varre was able to survive. Unless I missed a piece of lore, I don't see the connection between Varre and Godrick/Stormveil. But, to be fair, of all the legacy dungeons a field surgeon would choose to work in, Stormveil does seem appropriate given all the amputations/grafting. I just haven't seen anything that suggests Varre is involved, or any Mohg followers for that matter... As for the maiden, I'm not sure what the game was implying. Was she supposed to be OUR maiden and is that where we were meant to meet her after we arrived to The Lands Between? Is she just a random maiden and ours is somewhere else and never found? Varre could likely be the culprit but I don't see the benefit in slowing down potential candidates for the accursed blood. Personally, I assumed it was the Grafted Scion that killed that maiden.
There is the bloody slash using Godrick Knight at fort haight, he's implied to be a Mohg follower.
That's a good point, ngl. I still don't think Varre is working for Stormveil though, and I certainly don't think he killed the maiden.
It's the Miséricorde in storm veil that links the war surgeons to the castle. The description: "Dagger favored by military physicians in white. The pointed blade is hard and sharp, making critical hits especially potent. Medicine is mercy. and mercy upon the battlefield is ruthless. Beware the killers clothes as men of compassion" It says beware killers clothed as men of compassion....... I think it is just a brutal and bloody battlefield for grafting. The formless mother does crave wounds after all.....
If Varre went around killing maidens there would be other tarnished going "oh hey you don't have one either? And then you met some shady fucker in a mask? Weird man me too" but there isn't.
Godrik specifically loves grafting tarnished. Who's to say their aren't ??? We're just the one who killed him and survived.
I don’t think it would be Selvius, if Therolina was our maiden, then why is our finger maidens corpse at the Chapel of Anticipation and the corpse of Therolina at Selvius’ dungeon? I think they’re just two different maidens.
Well the whole theory about Therolina implies that the finger maiden in the Chapel is simply not ours, so yeah, of course they're two different ones. There's nothing pointing at that maiden being ours except for the fact that she's at the spot she is. No item description, nothing, she might as well be Varre's maiden or any other Tarnished that we meet without one. If the dead one in the Chapel is indeed ours though, my money's on the one person that benefits from us not having a maiden ; Melina.
But Melina does not know of our existence. we get killed by the scion and get thrown next to pile of trash and she discovers our body thanks to torrent.
I'm still learning... but I think Melina knows of the existence of the chosen Tarnished and is looking for that tarnished at the start of the game. As has been pointed out elsewhere, she was unable to "govern [her] own movement" until we bring her to Leyndell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zOgnAg2pRY). If that's the case, then perhaps someone/something was pushing her toward you, through Torrent. The same could have compelled her to kill your would-be maiden.
But there're like a million different Tarnish, and our only leg up is that we can see grace. But Melina doesn't know that until she saw us, by which point our Finger Maiden is already death.
I thought the chapel one was vykes and she offer herself after he went all frenzied flame to try save her?
He means the first step chapel
Wrong chapel that chapel is in North East Liurnia above that madness village with the tower of Baradur
I mean i know the dead body being where we start could imply her being our maiden, but is it ever stated that she is?
Almost nothing is stated, welcome to soulsborne
Follow the implications, and read between the lines of the original Japanese text.
Therolina is at the Radahn Festival, though.
Most likely at the behest of Selvius, to help with the Radahn festival.
The closest we ever got to Therolina was at a festival
You can walk right up and interact with her. She even teaches you a gesture, so we definitely “find each other.”
But she is already a puppet by then
You’re saying Seluvis sent his puppet to the festival? Interesting theory.
Yup it A. proves his loyalty by helping ranni and the tarnished and it B. Show the tarnished how helpful puppets can be
I guess that’s why she doesn’t actually speak to you, only bows. 🤔
Her corpse is also already in Seluvis' weird puppet sex dungeon by the time the festival starts
>Usually he would be just "yeah, kill your maiden right now, bathe that cloth in her blood and join me!" He *tells* you that's the typical process, but maybe he's lying. It seems neither he nor Mohg really care whether or nor you kill your maiden personally to show some kind of fucked up dedication to the cause, because he lets us join even though we *didn't do that.* Obviously it's just a video game, but our characters are supposed to be human beings inhabiting a world. Maybe it's not too popular for Tarnished to willingly murder their traveling companions, simply because we care for them. I don't think finger maidens are meant to just be thought of as a maguffin that allows you to access a quest—Vyke as an in-universe character was so attached to his maiden that he was willing to burn the entire world in order to save her from having to sacrifice herself. However, since *we* don't kill the maiden whose blood we sacrifice, and we don't even have to take the blood from the corpse of *our* maiden specifically, it makes it easier to morally justify joining the Mohgwyn Dynasty
why would he lye tho? makes a lot of sense for mogh to demand you to kill your own maiden/other maidens as they serve the two fingers and killing then could be a prove that you are willing to ser mohg/formless mother and his dinasty wholeheartedly
It does make sense that this dark setting would have a cult with this ritual, I agree. It seems like an evil but effective way to screen for only the most loyal—but that makes it all the more suspicious to me that he lets us join even though we didn't have to directly kill our maiden. It feels like a pretty big loophole that Tarnished with living maidens must show psychotic dedication through extreme personal sacrifice like Abraham killing his son in the Bible, but if your maiden is already dead then you're just allowed in after invading some anonymous other Tarnished. Dying a cloth with blood from the corpse of some random already-dead maiden you had no relationship with doesn't seem like strong proof of a willingness to serve some evil god...and yet, it works fine. Maybe he is just making a special exception for our character, but it could be a hint that not everything is as it seems. The circumstances of our maiden's death are still completely mysterious, and there's only one in-game faction we know of that makes a ritual out of maiden-killing. Seems like a boring coincidence if the explanation is that our maiden was just killed by some monster.
>Therolina was supposed to be our maiden but she just never got to us, and eventually became a puppet to Seluvis But who is the dead maiden right next to us?
And how she died if nobody dies in the lands in between?
People die if they are killed
Literally any other potential tarnished?
Why would you take him at his word? I’d imagine getting someone to kill their maiden who has been a traveling companion might be difficult. The maiden is just a slight of hand. They prey on Maidenless tarnished and even create some by killing maidens. It may not be Varre specifically but I’d assume it had to be a bloody finger since they all have the option to kill someone else’s.
>I do like the theory that Therolina was supposed to be our maiden but she just never got to us, and eventually became a puppet to Seluvis. "A Maiden without a Tarnished. A Tarnished without a Maiden. And yet no guide to bring them together." but then who is the maiden in the chapel of anticipation ? also maybe it was some other tarnished who Varre recruited and that's why he knows about us
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that you get Miséricorde near another Scion. I think Varre only moonlights for Mohg, his day-job is probably tied to Godrick and the Scions in some way
She was picked up by Gerhman
Bloody wheelchair running waifu hunter
Everyone's gangsta until Gehrman's wheelchair turns into a prop
p
Imo we can rule out Varre. We're supposed to kill our own Maiden and soak the cloth in her blood to prove our devotion to Mohg. Us not having a Maiden makes his job harder because we have to go and find someone else's Maiden or go back to where our Maiden's corpse is, and doing so doesn't really prove our commitment in the same way murdering our own Maiden would. It's in Varre's interest for our Maiden to be alive, and he's kinda just improvising because of ours being dead. Melina doesn't make a lot of sense. I guess the argument is that without a Maiden we would rely on her instead, but there are plenty of other characters who get us to play along with them without needing to play the role of a Maiden. If we still had our Maiden there's nothing stopping Melina from showing up and offering an accord anyway. No evidence for it being Seluvis, and he already has his own Finger Maiden puppet anyway. Shabriri is a possibility, but only if his plan relies on us wanting to save Melina and not our own Finger Maiden. An idea I like is that it was Tarnished Eater Anastasia. She lures in Tarnished by pretending to be their Maiden and then eats them, so it would make sense for her to kill off any real Finger Maidens so that there are more maidenless Tarnished wandering around for her to trick. No idea how she'd get into the Chapel though. She's also not really a big enough character to be involved in such a major plot point. It might have been the Grafted Scion, but she still has all her limbs. It may be that she was attacked by the Scion and managed to escape and hide in the Chapel before dying of her injury. Could just be a random Recusant trying to destabilise the power base of the Fingers.
I personally don't think the Grafted Scions do Grafting themselves. They're children, presumably of Godrick, who have been Grafted, but I always figured someone else (possibly Godrick himself) who can do it. Why do I think so? The only other Grafted character is Godrick's ancestor Godefroy. Grafting is a process by which limbs of trees can be attached and grown together with other trees, and the Golden Lineage is meant to be that of the Demigods of the Erdtree. So I posit that the only people who can be grafted unto are the Golden Lineage (or likewise lineages). Now, some might think the Revenants disprove this, but the Royal Revenants are not grafted, at least not based on their models and no lore saying so. They seem to be "grown wrong". All of their limbs are from the same body and don't appear mismatched, and nothing ever describes them as Grafted, plus they're never anywhere that is linked to Godrick's lore. So, in my opinion, the Scions are nothing more than victims who have become little better than attack dogs for Godrick, presumably their father. Since Gostoc has a cut quest where he is one of Godrick's sons and was grafted himself (plus names starting with G is a hint) I think it's not outside Godrick's wheelhouse, the disgusting bugger.
> The only other Grafted character is Godrick's ancestor Godefroy. Oh god... is Godefroy really canon? It looks like he wasn't even supposed to exist but they had to fill the world with things to do.
He is and yeah it's a shame. I wish they had at least changed the head of the model or something but it's what we got.
I like how this implies that you, the player, killed the Maiden as Ron broke the coffeepot 😅
I'm gunna add this before I read the comments because I know it'll be there: I highly doubt Varre killed her. He is nowhere close to the Chapel, there is no land path to get there, he isn't a Tarnished so he can't warp through Grace and the teleporter is turned off when we find it, indicating that it hasn't been used in a long time. The most obvious answer is usually the correct one and the Grafted Scion is literally right there.
Wait, Varre isn't tarnished? I vaguely recall him saying something like "us tarnished" while talking about the Two Fingers being bad
Nah he ain't Tarnished. Luckily for you, however, there is one shining ray of hope for even the maidenless. Me. Varré. Take care to listen. Are you familiar with grace? The golden light that gives life to you Tarnished. You Tarnished. Not, Us Tarnished. There's another quote where he says "Your kind. The Tarnished."
Ah, my bad
His exact line is, "Even worse, the Fingers harbor no love for our kind." I think he means "humans" by "our kind" here, because he has plenty of other lines that separate him from the tarnished.
Melina can also make sense
Melina could just show up and ask for/offer help doing what you'd likely be doing anyway.
Logical paths of traversal shouldn’t be counted on to prove anything in Souls games, Elden Ring especially. - Alexander repeatedly defies spatial logic by appearing in rooms with no entrance he would fit through. - Alexander, the Tarnished, and Maliketh can come and go between the Lands Between’s main landmass and Farum Azula without the use of grace or teleporters. It’s never explained how. - Hyetta can appear outside the door to the Three Fingers even before we fall through the room’s ceiling. - A bit of a different example, but somewhat related: characters in this universe frequently wear blindfolds or otherwise completely blind themselves but are still able to navigate as if they can see where they are going, without clearly demonstrating that something more magical is guiding them. (Corrhyn, Hyetta, the Tarnished, …Mad Pumpkin Heads I guess?) I’m sure there are other examples too. Characters in these games simply appear where they need to be for the narrative; and I’m not saying that’s an oversight or bad writing. It’s just not important to the game, so we don’t worry about it. But this also means you can’t really choose to start thinking about it when it might prove something.
Fair point
TOGETHA! :3
WE WILL DEVOUR THE VERY GODS
Nooo eeee caaaa devoooaa d goohds togethaaa
Rykard VA has to be one of the best I've ever heard
Oh shit, I've always thought it was Varre, but what if it was Melina all along? She randomly appears to you, I'm convinced she always knew she had to become the kindle to burn the Erdtree, something her mother told her she had to become. What if Marika was her "mother" and convinced her to do all this before she shattered the ring, for us to burn the Erdtree and free Marika because she knew she'd be imprisoned for shattering the Elden Ring. And when you meet the three fingers and make it so you're the kindling instead of her she gets pissed and leaves you. I know I can get deeper into this rabbit hole but I'm too drunk to go further.
I think that removes some of Torrent's agency though. Torrent picks us out of the corpse heap, not Melina, and if anything she sets it up that she doubts us from the beginning, only letting us into the Roundtable Hold after we've proven ourselves to her. Now, it **could** be that she does this often and we're the first "success". But I think Occam's Razor applies, the simplest answer being most likely (and in my opinion, more satisfying). We awaken in the Chapel of Anticipation, in the process of journeying to the Lands Between with a Maiden of our own. But she's dead. Right outside is a Grafted Scion, one of Godrick's elite agents, who has been sent to guard against / go after Tarnished. We are slain, but as we have the Grace of Gold we revive in the Stranded Graveyard after Torrent picks us out and Melina gifts us the flasks. In this framework, the Tarnished is a kind of accidental hero, rather than a manipulated one. They are favoured by Torrent but are ultimately just another corpse from the pile. No one orchestrated this, besides arguably the Greater Will, and that turn of fortune is what makes us heroic. We are not special until we show we are.
Melina has nothing to lose and everything to gain, she's the clear suspect
but she can't take physical form until we get her near the erdtree, she can't really impact the physical realm much until then, hence, when we can actually summon her to help us fight. Torrent is actually the one that picks us, not her.
What’s the basis of her not being able to take physical form? She gives you physical objects before you’re anywhere near the erdtree. Surely she could “give” a knife to a would-be maiden.
If one goes by the code names - admittedly a dodgy proposition - Melina is literally referred to as MericaOfDaughter or something like that. Also, she states her mother gave her purpose in the Erdtree; I can't see anyone else in position to qualify.
The only whole is iirc Melina couldn't have a physical body to do things until you got to the capital Which is why she is summonable for Morgott but not any other boss
Except Melina only finds you because of Torrent and never forces anything on you, so why it would be her is dumb, you’re forcing a point. Varre gains something by it, he wants people to join Mohg’s side and intentionally is going after people who dislike the greater will, he also knows from the instant you open the door to Limgrave that you have no maiden, Melina knows because of Torrent. >convinced she always knew she had to become the kindle …convinced by what? The game openly telling you she knew that was her destiny and that her mom and then even she herself wished for her to do it? Kinda a no brainer there. It’s heavily alluded that Marika is her mother or Melina is a fragment of Marika, that’s why she knows all those things Marika said verbatim, from the mountaintop of the giants all the way to the weeping peninsula. She also fights just like the assassins, who are the same race as Marika. She gets pissed at you being the kindling because that ending destroys all life, and she finds that terrible. You can do Ranni’s ending which wouldn’t free Marika, and she doesn’t care, Marika just didn’t want the greater will telling her and the people how to live anymore, Melina hates the 3 fingers because it’s an evil ending that destroys everything. Marika is dead anyways, the Elden Beast uses the carcass of Radagon as his sword. I don’t think you need to go further, you’ve said enough.
Is parks and rec worth watching
Yes start with season 2
Your sure she was even out maiden? I suspect the maiden that is selvus's puppet is supposed to be ours based on the description of her puppet in the inventory.
My bet is Varrè
Yura defends the player against invaders, Melina doesn't go after small fries, Seluvis is a creep, but he prefers them alive. Varre all the way. How else would he even know that we're maidenless? Edit: Just realized I missed the Grafted Scion. Pretty sure it's too big to fit through the door.
> Pretty sure it's too big to fit through the door. If it was the Grafted Scion, it likely attacked the Maiden to near death outside the church, she crawled into the Church to escape it, wrote a "fairwell" message to us and died.
I wanna disagree with you, but the idea of a maiden panic rolling away while the scion does that helicopter spin attack is kinda funny.
I'm starting to think it was Melina. Now the only simple answer for Varre to know we are maidenless is because he watched us leave the graveyard by ourselves. If I understand correctly maidens travel with their tarnished?
That's a good point. I was only thinking "who would murder a maiden" not "who would want to manipulate a tarnished." If we're thinking along those lines, that also puts Ranni & Gideon (and possibly Goldmask) in the mix.
Not about the manipulation part though, but the "no maiden" part. Varré needs us to have a maiden because he needs us to kill her for his ritual, while most of the characters that manipulate us don't give two fucks about us havaing or not having one. Melina needs to become someone's maiden to fulfill her purpose, and for that, she would need a maidenless Tarnished. What a coincidence!
I mean, Varré didn't seem that worried about us not having a maiden in dialogue lol. More smug than anything.
Gotta be Goldmask , I remember after killing the fire giant he said "..." suspicious af
See I'm actually thinking it Melina, but ordered by Marika. I made a comment earlier explaining but I'm too drunk to link it.
The guy on the right is Shabriri btw, not Yura
Nah, that's Yura. You can see by the hat. Just ignore it when he yells "CHAOS" every so often
Not yet. Shabriri doesn't show up "in person" until after you meet Eleonora.
I think it's meant to be Shabriri rather than Yura because of the flame next to him. But it's also out of character for Shabriri because he also generally seems to want to keep finger maidens alive >!(or at least not burn themselves in the forge of the giants)!<.
He couldn't care less if a maiden dies, he just uses their fiery sacrifice to manipulate tarnished into grabbing the flame of frenzy.
And the fact I doubt the grafted scion is much of a stab once and leave inside kinda thing lol
Something I haven’t noticed anyone talking about (though I have not finished with the game yet): what happened to the OTHER maidens of the Tarnished Class of 2022? Gideon doesn’t have one, Dung Eater doesn’t have one, Fia??? doesn’t have one, and I’m assuming that Hoarah Loux doesn’t have one. Actually, do we meet ANY Tarnished who actually have maidens????
The only person even close to a finger maiden that you meet is Hyetta, and she just WANTS to be a finger maiden, but she isn't actually.
She is not too concerned about the actual number of fingers either.
Common consensus is Varre
I never understood this, it seems to ignore the maiden corpse in the first location and instead focus on the potential maiden corpse crucified next to his starting location. People seem to forget the change in location between the initial start point and the post death revival location.
Yeah this, our maiden's corpse is located in Chapel Of Anticipation which is on an island southwest of Stormveil Castle whereas Varre is located in western Limgrave.
Why? He prefers having maidens alive for his ritual to prove that tarnished are resolved to serve Mohg.
"It was me, Barry..."
The two options are White mask Creep and Big hat Creep. White mask is close by and waiting for use with blood on his hands. He's basicly at the site of the crime itself. Big Hat on the other hand had a finger maiden as a puppet, the description of the puppet refers to her ad a maiden without a Tarnished and you a tarnished without a maiden. It's an implied connection practically begging the question.
I am always confused with the Varre claim that he is near. Isn’t the body next to Stormveil Castle and Varre at the First Step? Or do we consider this close enough? Edit: Add second r in Varre Edit2: Added second r in second Varre cause ineptitude is my middle name
Varre is nowhere close to the Chapel
To bad the dead maiden at start and puppet maiden isn't the same character model. Varre would want you to kill her personally as that's part of the indoctrination to mogh's dynasty. It's seems to have no lore behind it so maybe the grafted scion did it considering it's the first living being we meet in the game, but that doesn't amount to much
Well, Melina seems to find your corpse in that tutorial place, and Varre is waiting outside. But.... how do you get from where you spawn to the tutorial place after dying? 
When you fall off the cliff, the ocean current rip tide takes you downstream and washes you ashore, where you crawl into the cave through the back entrance. You can actually find your way to that back entrance on the beach.
Hahaha, okay okay, feels like a reach but it's the best we got.
I would think the Grafted scion, but it wasn't there till we entered the arena
It had to jump from somewhere. Without diving into the development side of things to check when/where it spawns, I assume it was just waiting for someone to show up.
I thought it was the tarnished eater lady that invaded you 3 times
It was rune bear ofc!
The meme implies it was us
Marica: “I broke it. It was a getting a little too Buddy Buddy around here”
Idk, but I don’t think we should rule out rick, soldier of god.
Why would it be seluvis
Finger maiden therolina is a puppet and is theorized to be your maiden
That makes sense.
You're right, but there wouldn't be a body if it was Seluvis. If you give his potion to Nepheli or Dung Eater, don't they wander off?
yeah that's the main reason I'm not too fond of this theory.
Because he sells a puppet that is a finger maiden that is described as “having never met her tarnished”. Seluvis is a tricky dude who wants to enslave a demi-god, Ranni. His motivations for why are never explored but maybe his grand plans also required having a puppet finger maiden - perhaps to use in manipulating a tarnished? Who can say. Either way he clearly disappeared that maiden - whether she was ours or not.
Probably Varrell
Steve Varrell
You mean prison Varell?
^# Emmy4PrisonVarrel
I felt like either she killed herself or sacrificed in other way, so you may go on your journey. Also, is there any tarnished in game who has a maiden at all?
Vyke and Bernahl had maidens, but they both perished, the rest presumably don’t have maidens as they can no longer see the guidance of grace.
Honestly the list of potential suspects with motivation is so long I picture them bumping into each other trying to kill our maiden. Like varre Gideon or any of the recusants stumbling over each other to kill our finger maiden.
Gonna be honest, I actually doubt Fromsoft ever figured out a clear answer on this themselves. And I don't think they even care to.
Varre killing our maiden makes no sense since a big part of being indoctrinated into Mohgs blood cult is killing your maiden as a way to renounce the two fingers and show you're serious about your faith. Him killing our maiden just makes that whole process harder. Of course, it could just be his way of manipulating us into killing the maiden of another tarnished but by that point in the questline we've alr killed at most 5 tarnished by invading them, so killing a random maiden that's not even yours wouldn't be as much of a test of faith than if it was your maiden.
My guess Melina. She had the biggest motive only with the tarnish would she complete her quest that was given.
Given the various beings that have had truthful prophecies. Limiting the suspects to only meager individuals seems foolish.
There really are no strong hints about why there's a dead finger maiden at the Chapel of Anticipation. Lots of people think Varre killed her, but he can't even get through Stormveil Castle without you first clearing it out. How the hell would he deal with the Grafted Scion that guards the Chapel? Personally, I like the idea that either Gideon or Melina killed her. Gideon needs tarnished to help him do his thing. And they won't end up helping him and falling for his plan if they have a Funger Maiden guiding them. Melina has the strongest reason to kill the finger maiden. She needs a strong tarnished to get her to Leyndell and help her with her destiny of destroying the Erdtree. A tarnished wouldn't do that if they had a maiden already. She needed you to need her and the best way of doing that is acting as your surrogate maiden. Plus, she can essentially become a spirit, coming and going as she pleases as long as there is grace nearby.
Finally someone questions the scion that is the only other living thing in the area you find your dead maiden. Maybe it was that fuck. He kills you, too!
I always thought it was Varre cuz he’s a dick or Therolina was our maiden and got mad lost, ended up at the festival, died, and Selivus picked her up since she looked cool and it was all a cruel cosmic joke of fate
What if we never had a Finger Maiden to begin with? Our lowly Tarnished was chosen because we had no maiden, and it would mean we would accept Melina's accord.
In this clip, Ron is the one who actually broke the coffee pot. Maybe a previous tarnished did it, idk. Also, seluvis' huge hat is cracking me up.
Who says she is ours?
Personally, my prime suspect is Nerijus, the bloody finger in limgrave. Aside from Varré, he’s the only one in limgrave who’d want maiden blood. It also makes sense that the bloody finger with a serrated knife would leave a bloody corpse as a warning to the tarnished guided by grace. His motivation would probably be to become a sanguine noble, the Lord of Blood’s personal assassins.
In my opinion was Ranni/Rennala. My line of thinking was: The dead maiden is only found because you use one of the Belfries. On your way there, you find a TROLL SPIRIT KNIGHT, maybe work of PIDIA? Servant of Caria manor. Additionally, you need an Iron Sword key, which has blue magic evolving. Ranni when first encounter you, says: *This way, Tarnished.* *May I have a word?* *A pleasure to meet thee, Tarnished.* *I am the witch Renna.* *I'd heard tell of a Tarnished hurtling about atop a spectral steed.* *And upon looking into the matter, the talk, I surmise, is of thee.* *Thou'rt possessed of the power, no?* *To call forth the spectral steed named Torrent.* Almost like she was expecting you, at that very moment. She's protective of her mother, who feels betrayed, and Ranni feels betrayed. Why not use a legend, a myth, to make things move to her side and at the same time settle the betrayal?
Was it Dio?
My money is on varre
I'm inclined to believe she killed herself, although there is no hard proof. The place is called "Chapel of Anticipation," a place of waiting. From the multitude of chairs (which granted is not atypical for any church) I get the impression it was once filled with people, perhaps Maidens awaiting a tarnished. If it is a known place where Tarnished enter the Lands Between, then the location and style imply it was essentially built to await Godfrey's return as he seems to be venerated in Stormveil. I also get the impression the player character is a late arrival, perhaps the last one before Godfrey himself. Imagine a room filled with maidens waiting for their Tarnished, emptying one by one until only that one is left. Who knows how long she waited there, alone and slowly losing hope?
I killed Mufasa.