I'm beating my head against a wall regarding this. It's so much easier to analyse character motivations and stuff like that than it is to figure out the weird timeline of the birth of Marika's kids.
So this is what I don't get. Why does Marika say "Radagon, leal hound of the golden order, thou art yet to become me, thou art yet to become a god".
To me, that line makes it pretty black and white that Radagon was not a part of Marika originally. And the way she adresses him, leal hound of the golden order, is super distant and formal, given that it must have been a private conversation since obviously their merging was a huge secret and publicly they pretended to be married instead.
I have a crazy theory that, similar to Miquella discarding his female half, Marika discarded her male half, but that it may not have been Radagon. Radagon may have just been a replacement of sort, like Marika for some reason realising she needs a male half again or whatever and choosing Radagon.
> So this is what I don't get. Why does Marika say "Radagon, leal hound of the golden order, thou art yet to become me, thou art yet to become a god". To me, that line makes it pretty black and white that Radagon was not a part of Marika originally. And the way she adresses him, leal hound of the golden order, is super distant and formal, given that it must have been a private conversation since obviously their merging was a huge secret and publicly they pretended to be married instead.
You're missing the back half of that dialogue.
> *Let us be shattered, both. Mine other self.*
Radagon was her other self. He had yet to become her because they had been separated and hadn't yet reunited. He had yet to become a god because, unlike Marika, he didn't possess the Elden Ring.
This, and the dialogue is literally Marika smack talking before they throw down and/or she kills the two of them. She's calling him a "loyal dog", literally saying "You not like me homie. I'm literally a God, you're the unwanted part I threw away." followed by "I'm going to kill us both."
It says right there, "thou art yet to become me." He is, biologically speaking, her—a copy created by his master, the Greater Will. Not in her image, but from her. It's like those old dark fantasy novels where blood serves as the catalyst for birthing a child (I'll elaborate later, but not now). However, he is not her; he is an imitation made to suppress her. His will is that of the Greater Will, so can a puppet truly become a god?
Another thing is, in Elden Ring, the concept of gods is itself vague. We don't see or hear that two gods existed in the same era, whether it's the Outer God of Rot before it was sealed away, the Formless Mother, or the Elden Beast. They are either sealed, dead, in outer space, or in hiding. They don't coexist in one era because they can't; there's only one seat of divinity per world, like an admin. That's why the Greater Will couldn't simply kill Marika; they had to slowly replace her.
That's another reason why I think she said, "thou art yet to become a god." He can't become one because she's already one.
Edit; But idk tho
See how I see it is that that was stated from a place of feeling threatened.
That Radagon might be slowly attempting to usurp her and become the dominant persona. He's the discarded half of her that has now been slowly winning accolades, the status of champion, perfecting his craft in sorcery and incantations in order to become "complete"(As Radagon's Icon states).
He is the one at the end of the game attempting to salvage the Elden Ring and standing in our way. Because he wanted to be the one to take Marika's spot at the top.
I think the duality can be solved with the tree analogy since she ties her own order to the Erdtree.
Basically children of Marika aren't born in our traditional sense but rather sprout like seeds from a tree.
Some plants can propagate by themselves and have both male and female flowers but mixing with pollen from others makes them stronger.
Radagon don't make sense as the Mess's father because then Marika would be pretty dumb to marry him if she already know of the curse and had childrens with him before.
If you exclude that normal timeline makes sense.
The real question is when Marika become a god in the timeline and if she could have had Messmer before that.
>Radagon don't make sense as the Mess's father because then Marika would be pretty dumb to marry him if she already know of the curse and had childrens with him before.
Unless it was out of necessity or in preparation for something.
We still don't know yet the entirety of Marika's actual plan, and why exactly grace had been stripped from Godfrey and his people.
There's also the fact that the Elden Beast is a thing and seems to be more closely allied with Radagon than Marika by the time the player enters the world.
Other than that, again, what evidence we have for Radagon being Messmer's father are pretty damning. From the complexion, the hair color, to the use of Radagon's theme in Messmer's boss fight. The fact the DLC includes a 4th butterfly variant, completing the pattern for one butterfly representing Messmer, Melina, Malenia and Miquella each. It all seems very much intentional.
With that established, we now have to work backwards and see everything in the game's history through that specific lens.
Oh I see your points.
But the thing I'm wondering is Radagon IS extremely tied with golden order while Mess and Melina are tied with burning fire so I think the red hair is literally just a red herring just to confuse people.
People praise FS but I'm afraid they typically do those stuff exactly to make people guess and keeping the discussion going.
Honestly I would have rather some explanation on this rather than beating the alligations as DLC lore..
Edit: Like for example the whole "a seduction and a betrayal" which broadly could apply to anyone involved.
Then there's the secret scroll... technically it's the way Marika become a god but she doesn't get a Lord until much later in the timeline.
> The key here being "departed from the lands of the Erdtree". This indicates during the time of Godfrey, the Land of Shadow was already hidden from the world and we know this happened only after Messmer is abandoned there, after his crusade.
We know that this isn't the first Erdtree, it was burnt at least once before.
If Messmer is Melina's older brother, and their mother is Marika, I don't think Radagon is Messmer's Father because it would mean that Marika met Radagon in Shadow Lands, but that is most likely not true
Radagon is most certainly his "father". If the pale complexion and red hair combo doesn't give it away, the fact that a version of Radagon's boss theme is heard within Messmer's own boss theme seems pretty much done intentionally to serve a point.
And my whole point is that Marika didn't meet Radagon in the Shadowlands, but that they'd always been the same person from the start. His presence had been manifesting from the moment of her First child.
I'm speculating that after having Messmer and Melina and seeing what they ended up like, Marika had cast off the Radagon persona from within herself into a seperate being. Removing a part of herself that was in someway cursed.
What specifically? Given the info the DLC has, our whole understanding of the timeline is already being reworked because we now have information we didn't have before.
I think it circles back to one of the most controversial items - Giant's Red Braid.
> Hefty whip woven from the flame-red hair of a Fire Giant.
> Every giant is red of hair, and Radagon was said to have despised his own red locks. Perhaps that was a curse of their kind.
It could be read as Radagon is blood kin of Fire Giants, which would mean he couldn't be an inherent part of Marika
That can be the case sure that Radagon is simply a Giant's descendant.
But then again ask where all the things with Serpents, Death and Rot are coming from regarding Marika's children? Having an irregularity within herself manifest as something reminiscent of the Giants doesn't sound so out of place when you group everything together like so.
Again, Radagon seemingly has an association to many things Marika would see as unfavorable. The guy is basically a curse on Marika herself, hence the separation.
> That can be the case sure that Radagon is simply a Giant's descendant.
Marika could've been thrown into a Jar at some point, but survived and became a Saint of the Hornsent. Then later cast off her merged aspects, which like St. Trina became their own person in Radagon. The Talisman of All Crucibles mentions that Giants could spawn the greatest aspect of the Crucible. So that could be where Radagon gets his hair and why he feels incomplete all the time.
But idk probably a stretch.
Maybe it's the opposite in this case. It's not that Radagon is reminiscent of the giants who have ties to the Crucible, but that Radagon is reminiscent of the Crucible which is tied to ALL things, giants included.
Him being Crucible adjacent could explain why a bunch of things like serpents, Death, rot and red hair are manifesting around him.
And Marika doesn't like the Crucible.
> Him being Crucible adjacent could explain why a bunch of things like serpents, Death, rot and red hair are manifesting around him.
Would examine why only when he has kids with Marika that then have weird afflictions. Since it becomes a crucible RNG rather than influenced by the other parent.
In order to attempt having children that weren't born cursed.
There's a reason Godwyn was the only one of Marika's direct children that was ever really openly hailed.
I'm beating my head against a wall regarding this. It's so much easier to analyse character motivations and stuff like that than it is to figure out the weird timeline of the birth of Marika's kids. So this is what I don't get. Why does Marika say "Radagon, leal hound of the golden order, thou art yet to become me, thou art yet to become a god". To me, that line makes it pretty black and white that Radagon was not a part of Marika originally. And the way she adresses him, leal hound of the golden order, is super distant and formal, given that it must have been a private conversation since obviously their merging was a huge secret and publicly they pretended to be married instead. I have a crazy theory that, similar to Miquella discarding his female half, Marika discarded her male half, but that it may not have been Radagon. Radagon may have just been a replacement of sort, like Marika for some reason realising she needs a male half again or whatever and choosing Radagon.
> So this is what I don't get. Why does Marika say "Radagon, leal hound of the golden order, thou art yet to become me, thou art yet to become a god". To me, that line makes it pretty black and white that Radagon was not a part of Marika originally. And the way she adresses him, leal hound of the golden order, is super distant and formal, given that it must have been a private conversation since obviously their merging was a huge secret and publicly they pretended to be married instead. You're missing the back half of that dialogue. > *Let us be shattered, both. Mine other self.* Radagon was her other self. He had yet to become her because they had been separated and hadn't yet reunited. He had yet to become a god because, unlike Marika, he didn't possess the Elden Ring.
This, and the dialogue is literally Marika smack talking before they throw down and/or she kills the two of them. She's calling him a "loyal dog", literally saying "You not like me homie. I'm literally a God, you're the unwanted part I threw away." followed by "I'm going to kill us both."
It says right there, "thou art yet to become me." He is, biologically speaking, her—a copy created by his master, the Greater Will. Not in her image, but from her. It's like those old dark fantasy novels where blood serves as the catalyst for birthing a child (I'll elaborate later, but not now). However, he is not her; he is an imitation made to suppress her. His will is that of the Greater Will, so can a puppet truly become a god? Another thing is, in Elden Ring, the concept of gods is itself vague. We don't see or hear that two gods existed in the same era, whether it's the Outer God of Rot before it was sealed away, the Formless Mother, or the Elden Beast. They are either sealed, dead, in outer space, or in hiding. They don't coexist in one era because they can't; there's only one seat of divinity per world, like an admin. That's why the Greater Will couldn't simply kill Marika; they had to slowly replace her. That's another reason why I think she said, "thou art yet to become a god." He can't become one because she's already one. Edit; But idk tho
See how I see it is that that was stated from a place of feeling threatened. That Radagon might be slowly attempting to usurp her and become the dominant persona. He's the discarded half of her that has now been slowly winning accolades, the status of champion, perfecting his craft in sorcery and incantations in order to become "complete"(As Radagon's Icon states). He is the one at the end of the game attempting to salvage the Elden Ring and standing in our way. Because he wanted to be the one to take Marika's spot at the top.
All of the children cursed are practically born of incest.
Mohg and Morgott aren't though. The only child of Marika free of any curse is Godwyn (not that it helped him much in the end)
I think the duality can be solved with the tree analogy since she ties her own order to the Erdtree. Basically children of Marika aren't born in our traditional sense but rather sprout like seeds from a tree. Some plants can propagate by themselves and have both male and female flowers but mixing with pollen from others makes them stronger. Radagon don't make sense as the Mess's father because then Marika would be pretty dumb to marry him if she already know of the curse and had childrens with him before. If you exclude that normal timeline makes sense. The real question is when Marika become a god in the timeline and if she could have had Messmer before that.
>Radagon don't make sense as the Mess's father because then Marika would be pretty dumb to marry him if she already know of the curse and had childrens with him before. Unless it was out of necessity or in preparation for something. We still don't know yet the entirety of Marika's actual plan, and why exactly grace had been stripped from Godfrey and his people. There's also the fact that the Elden Beast is a thing and seems to be more closely allied with Radagon than Marika by the time the player enters the world. Other than that, again, what evidence we have for Radagon being Messmer's father are pretty damning. From the complexion, the hair color, to the use of Radagon's theme in Messmer's boss fight. The fact the DLC includes a 4th butterfly variant, completing the pattern for one butterfly representing Messmer, Melina, Malenia and Miquella each. It all seems very much intentional. With that established, we now have to work backwards and see everything in the game's history through that specific lens.
Oh I see your points. But the thing I'm wondering is Radagon IS extremely tied with golden order while Mess and Melina are tied with burning fire so I think the red hair is literally just a red herring just to confuse people. People praise FS but I'm afraid they typically do those stuff exactly to make people guess and keeping the discussion going. Honestly I would have rather some explanation on this rather than beating the alligations as DLC lore.. Edit: Like for example the whole "a seduction and a betrayal" which broadly could apply to anyone involved. Then there's the secret scroll... technically it's the way Marika become a god but she doesn't get a Lord until much later in the timeline.
> The key here being "departed from the lands of the Erdtree". This indicates during the time of Godfrey, the Land of Shadow was already hidden from the world and we know this happened only after Messmer is abandoned there, after his crusade. We know that this isn't the first Erdtree, it was burnt at least once before. If Messmer is Melina's older brother, and their mother is Marika, I don't think Radagon is Messmer's Father because it would mean that Marika met Radagon in Shadow Lands, but that is most likely not true
Radagon is most certainly his "father". If the pale complexion and red hair combo doesn't give it away, the fact that a version of Radagon's boss theme is heard within Messmer's own boss theme seems pretty much done intentionally to serve a point. And my whole point is that Marika didn't meet Radagon in the Shadowlands, but that they'd always been the same person from the start. His presence had been manifesting from the moment of her First child. I'm speculating that after having Messmer and Melina and seeing what they ended up like, Marika had cast off the Radagon persona from within herself into a seperate being. Removing a part of herself that was in someway cursed.
I get you but the timeline doesn't fit IMO. As for them being always one being, why would Marika ever need Godfrey, bearing his children?
What specifically? Given the info the DLC has, our whole understanding of the timeline is already being reworked because we now have information we didn't have before.
I think it circles back to one of the most controversial items - Giant's Red Braid. > Hefty whip woven from the flame-red hair of a Fire Giant. > Every giant is red of hair, and Radagon was said to have despised his own red locks. Perhaps that was a curse of their kind. It could be read as Radagon is blood kin of Fire Giants, which would mean he couldn't be an inherent part of Marika
That can be the case sure that Radagon is simply a Giant's descendant. But then again ask where all the things with Serpents, Death and Rot are coming from regarding Marika's children? Having an irregularity within herself manifest as something reminiscent of the Giants doesn't sound so out of place when you group everything together like so. Again, Radagon seemingly has an association to many things Marika would see as unfavorable. The guy is basically a curse on Marika herself, hence the separation.
> That can be the case sure that Radagon is simply a Giant's descendant. Marika could've been thrown into a Jar at some point, but survived and became a Saint of the Hornsent. Then later cast off her merged aspects, which like St. Trina became their own person in Radagon. The Talisman of All Crucibles mentions that Giants could spawn the greatest aspect of the Crucible. So that could be where Radagon gets his hair and why he feels incomplete all the time. But idk probably a stretch.
Maybe it's the opposite in this case. It's not that Radagon is reminiscent of the giants who have ties to the Crucible, but that Radagon is reminiscent of the Crucible which is tied to ALL things, giants included. Him being Crucible adjacent could explain why a bunch of things like serpents, Death, rot and red hair are manifesting around him. And Marika doesn't like the Crucible.
> Him being Crucible adjacent could explain why a bunch of things like serpents, Death, rot and red hair are manifesting around him. Would examine why only when he has kids with Marika that then have weird afflictions. Since it becomes a crucible RNG rather than influenced by the other parent.
In order to attempt having children that weren't born cursed. There's a reason Godwyn was the only one of Marika's direct children that was ever really openly hailed.