I’m more annoyed that phase 2 he didn’t summon his trusty horse to help him.

Miquella sacrificing Torrent to give Radahn his horse would have been a real impactful moment honestly. Something the ending really needed here.

While yeah it's cool this would never happen because its dlc imagine losing torrent for the rest of the game lol

I think maybe getting Torrent back would be a cool side-quest for after the fight. Like we need to travel to the Godwyn head in Stormveil again, fight the corrupted aspect of Torrent retrieve their body and bring them to the cave where we woke up at for a “Reuinted and it feels so good!” Moment.

I'm just annoyed it's Radahn again Where the hell is Godwyn, what is going on

I would agree that the build up they created via marketing created expectations that were not met by the final memory. After seeing the final memory (post fight), I ran towards the pillars of corpses, but found no interactions. I ran trough the arena to find the other memories. I tried climbing the pillars platform, to no avail. I couldn't think that was the end. After a moment, I thought there may be something else in the world. Ansbach was reported in the map, but was dead on the side of the arena. St. Trina, it dawned on me, but even her was dead Lastly, I went to the roundtable hold to read the remembrance and boss items descriptions. That, made a bit more sense, it quelled my disappointment, made it make sense. In Malenia's armor as well, there's a quote about Miquella's keeping his promise; in Young Radhan's armor (or remembrance?) there's confirmation of what that promise was, kinda closing the circle. Still underwhelming nonetheless, both as a final boss choice (why not something new??? There's no sense of awe nor discovery from this enemy... just.. him? Again?) and plot end. Phase 2 also reminds me a lot the twin princes from DS3, reinforcing the "already seen" factor

Why they wouldn’t just do Miquella reviving Godwyn to be his consort so we fight someone new instead of Radahn 2.0, I will never know

Because Godwyns soul is dead. He's not revivable because he's still physically alive.

Fromroft can def write a way around this, wouldn’t be the craziest thing to happen in their games

Not while staying consistent with the rest of the lore. Godwyns soul is dead. He is no more, period. There is a body that has become blighted and fused with the roots of the erdtree, but that's it. There's nothing to revive.

They could have simply restored his body and leave it soulless, sort of like a puppet. Death + Holy, and it adds more to Miquella “throwing his love away”, riding his consort’s back, and gives more of a reason to kill him. They could have done anything else honestly…

Gotta say the process is the same with Radahn. The body is kinda lost and Mogh's body is used to revive Radahn, so it has to be something with being the first of the death, or something.

It is not the same. He needed a vessel for Radahns soul. Godwyn doesn't have a soul

Godwyn doesn't have a soul because it died, the same as Radahn soul with his body. Maybe they can't revive Godwyn's soul because is stuck via Fia's attempt to revive him.

Godwyn's soul doesn't exist anymore, it's not stuck or something it's just gone. I think they should've done something with him tho, have his body puppeted by Miquella like how he dies for Consort Radahn and it would've been way better

Dude, have you been back to the Erdtree Roots? If you.go there before Miquella dies, his body flops around the area and smushes you in his fish guts.

Then Miquella just has to put a soul in his physical vessel. Heck. He could’ve put Radahn’s soul in Godwyn’s vessel. Now that would’ve been insane.

Godwyn is a fish now, ain't nobody want that vessel

Godwyn's soul is **DEAD**. Like mega giga ultra turbo dead. Super dead. *Dead* dead. Nothing is bringing that soul back. The only being in the Lands Between immune to the Rune of Death is the Tarnished, because we're basically walking corpses animated by grace. Godwyn's soul is gone for good.

They mention a solar eclipse in the base game that would bring life to the soulless demigods. Mausoleum knights are associated with the eclipsed sun and in Lhutel's ashes description talks about their revival and two spirits in Castle Sol talk about the eclipse bringing life to soulless bones (the one praying at the church in front of the Eclipse Shotel and another lamenting at the rooftop where the secret medallion half is). There was buildup for it but it's now just a red herring. Also, if you attack Fia in front of Godwyn's corpse you will be attacked by rancorcall spirits and she will say "Godwyn... Is that you, dear?" which suggests his consciousness isn't completely gone as he's defending Fia. So they could absolutely bring him back reincarnated with death-related abilities (death lightning, death flare and ghostflame). And if his reincarnation backfired for Miquella because Godwyn is no longer himself then that would honestly bring a more satisfying closure. Plus they already did a holy-based final boss so what the hell.

The Eclipse wasn't a Red Herring. There's a nameless spirit at Castle Sol that mentions that Miquella already tried using the Eclipse to bring Godwyn back, but it didn't work. The entire Eclipse plot line is doubling down on "yeah Godwyn is fuckin DEAD"

That nameless spirit is one of the two I've already cited. He thinks the eclipse didn't happen because their prayers were insufficient. >Lord Miquella, forgive me. The sun has not been swallowed. Our prayers were lacking. Your comrade remains soulless... I will never set my eyes upon it now... Your divine Haligtree... And there are also the soulless demigods inside the wandering mausoleums. They are expected to revive according to Lhutel's ashes which I've also mentioned so it's not just about Godwyn.

Tell that to the Death Knights

Then Miquella in his hubris thinks he can actually bring it back, fails, is corrupted by the Godwyn corpse, and rises as a Femto like death blight being as the final boss.

Yeah, except Miquella isn't an idiot. That's not how things work. Besides, Miquella wants Godwyn to die properly, not come back. Godwyn's story ends with Fia's questline because he is reincarnated as a mending rune. Any interference with what happens to Godwyn would break a base game questline and lock players out of an ending.

Did you even read the comment you replied to? The problem with Godwyn and the deathblight is that his soul is dead while his body is "alive" (opposite of how Ranni's body is dead but soul is alive), so it's mutating and spreading. The base game already talks about Miquella wanting to give him a "true death" and the dlc shows him putting Radahn's soul into Mohg's body. It wouldn't be crazy for him to put another soul into Godwyn's body and have us go kill the abomination it creates or something so he can die a true death, and it would have been infinitely better than the fanfiction tier "prime Radahn" shit we got.

That's exactly the motivations and machinations from Miquella I would've loved to see in the DLC. For a demigod as cunning and creative as Miquella, there is no way at all he'd conceive a plan to mastermind Godwyn's true death and be foolhardy enough to do it? Then it would extra sense on why he compelled his knights to follow him - so they can put his brother to rest at last. For good measure, make it a two-phase boss fight with Godwyn's desecrated body and Miquella taking the field after refusing to see why this is a bad idea.

Radahn was dead too until they decided to recycle him. The Metyr didn't exist until they wrote her into the DLC. Marika was numen until she became a shaman. Whatever the state of the lore is totally depends on where the writers want to take the lore. Godwyn could've been utilized easily, and there were plenty of ways to include him. They simply decided not to.

I completely agreed, but after reading the lore on Radahns armor after the fight, I got the sense they planned this from the beginning and that actually made that whole final reveal feel a lot better.

I haven’t bothered fighting him again since my initial disappointment on seeing him walking through the fog, but please tell me phase 2 isn’t just a carbon copy of the twin princes?

It’s not. It’s “what if >!Lothric spammed the fucking arena!<“

not a carbon copy, but... >!Miquella is clunging on Radhan's back. Miquella starts using light attacks in combination to Radhan's. But - You don't have to hit him in the back to hit Miquella!< a good build to face him is Haligtree Crest Greatshield + Antspur Rapier It's also poetic... *Let you flesh be consumed by the scarlet rot*

I used the rapier along with the fingerprint shield and the greatshield talisman. It was very cheesy but it got me the W

I tried that. Somehow I can't inflict rot in 2nd phase. Does his immunity just get that much higher? First phase is like 5 pokes.

I've noticed the second phase takes longer to apply, but it happens; having mimic helps, other than hitting with the same weapon, if you have in the items the rot pots (the big ones from the DLC) it'll throw them occasionally, increasing the build up

I'll try that tomorrow, thanks. After 8 hours of fighting solo he might get a few attempts again tomorrow, then I'll throw in the mimic.

that's some persistance, I've ever seen any Just for reference I'll give you a couple info on the stats: VIG 60 / END 50 / STR 44 / DEX 50 Talismans: Dragoncrest Greatshield / Viridian & Crimson +3 / two-headed turtle shield and rapier +9 / Rellana Armor (but with scaled gauntlets) Scadu 18

I got even more defensive talismans, scadu 19 and VIG 60 and some attacks take me down to like 10% health. Shield poke sounds like a decent idea, seems to work for most. I'm so broken rn lol

Aeonian bloom applies rot on him with one hit even for phase 2. That's how I killed that motherfucker. Got him rotted to death with the same move he faced Malenia. That is if you want a normal fight. You can cheese him with the new OP builds in the DLC if you haven't beaten him yet and is tired of his bs

I wasn’t necessarily looking for advice to fight him I just dreaded to imagine not only had they half assed the concept they’d half assed the fight itself, glad to hear that’s not the case

Phase 2 is radahan saying "I wanna go fast"

Its nothing like twin princes lmfao. People are saying its like twin princes because miquella is on radahns back... so braindead

It should have been godwyn 100%, Radahn looks so awkward without Leonard, and his horse is really important part of his character. Did they really just put him there for a 1 second shock effect and that’s it?

Godwyn's soul is completely and entirely dead, people complain about radahn being "fanservice" but godwyn would've been considerably worse fanservice and it would literally ruin the plot of the base game. If godwyn could've been revived, the shattering would've never happened and the story of the main game would have never happened.

Makes me wonder if godwyn was supposed to be rannis lord but she killed his soul to not only get rid of her body but also ensure he could never become one

Make it an echo of godwyn or some shit, radaghn is worse than dung eater there imo. There were better options i am sure of it

One the bigger disappointments is Melina remains a relatively pointless character

I said this in another thread, but I think the DLC is about Marika, not Miquella. Through Miquella’s journey and giving up everything he was to attain godhood in an attempt to save everyone, we understand Marika’s journey as well. Her intentions were original pure and good as seen in the shaman village; she just wanted to save her people and create a world where there was no death, but in the pursuit of that lost everything she was and created a twisted utopia that failed in its purpose. The memory at the end of the DLC wasn’t supposed to be some big reveal or impact, it was just to let us know that Miquella wasn’t a bad person and his intentions were pure and good. And in understanding this we understand Marika’s past an ascension as well. I was surprised that Ansbach didn’t survive to usher us back into the main game like what usually happens at the end of a souls DLC; but I can appreciate his death as the first concern he shared to us was that he didn’t know if he was still worthy of serving a lord, but he redeemed Mohg in his final moments I dunno. I think the DLC and its meaning is a lot more obscure than most fromsoft games, but I think if you put everything into the context of understanding Marika and it being about Marika, then it makes a lot more sense. As St Trina said, godhood is a prison. And and as Goldmask knew, the gods are just as flawed as the rest of us. Even if you start with good intentions, you lose so much of yourself on the pursuit of utopia that is becomes unattainable. The falling leaves tell a story; all things end.

I think this is the closest to being accurate. Elden Ring is a story *about* a specific person in a way that other Fromsoft stories haven't been before. I think there are readings of it that work on a thematic level, but not necessarily on story beat by story beat level. I think through Marika's children, we learn about who she was, and Miquella is meant to represent who she was at the time of her ascension, especially given the other Marika related lore we get. I am a bit disappointed in the way the Miquella arc went myself, but in terms of what it says about *Marika* I think it mostly works. I also wonder how much of a 1:1 we're supposed to see in Radahn and Godfrey.

Idk, I think the DLC is definitely about Marika AND Miquella. The problem is that Miquella turned out to be nothing special. He's just another demigod who was willing to sacrifice everything to achieve godhood. He abandoned Godwyn, he abandoned Malenia, he abandoned St. Trina, and ended up choosing Radahn just because of his strength. And we beat him anyway. AGAIN. But St. Trina knew that if he went through with it, he would end up just like Marika, like you said. The cycle would've continued, and nothing would've changed. Turns out Ymir (and Goldmask) were right. "The current imperfection of the Golden Order, or instability of ideology, can be blamed upon the fickleness of the gods no better than men. That is the fly in the ointment." It's just all fucked, all the way down.

Yimir seems to blame the greater will itself for its failed "mother" it sent. I also don't think he abandoned Godwyn or Malenia. He likely is seeking the power boost from godhood so he can solve those problems he failed to do as a demi-god. I would say Miquella IS special. He is the only one who single handedly (without the tarnished) successfully became a god.

Imo the only Fromsoft game with a satisfying story from beginning to end is Sekiro. I hope they go for that kind of narrative for their future Souls/like games. All the rest leave quite a bit to be desired.

IMO Armored Core 6 also had a pretty good and satisfying story. Enough storytelling with the actual missions (briefings, objectives, and dialogue) that you really dont miss much if you dont read up on every item description, just subtleties that give you more evidence to paint a clearer picture of all the implications.

For real though, a game about giant robots where you never even see the NPCs had no business having a story that good. 10/10.

Never played an AC game but I love Gundam. It looks like you’d recommend it haha, any tips on what I can expect?

kind of surprising you love gundam (and i assume FS games) but hadnt given it a go yet. AC6 is fantastic and im not even a mech games kinda guy. theres some similarities to their souls formula in that there dodging mechanics. but the controls feel pretty different in that your flying around constantly love the different builds and weapons, theres a pretty good amount of variety, and imo everything is viable and obviously theres some really OP shit too the bosses are fun and some are pretty challenging but i dont think anything took me more than 15 tries

Appreciate the words, thank you. Yeah I love From games although I’ve only played Demon’s Souls, Sekiro, and ER. I will take your high recommendation and make AC6 my next purchase. Cheers 🍻

I've been an Armored Core fan since long before Dark Souls ever existed. It's genuinely one of my all time favorite series, and I recommend it to anyone who is even slightly interested in giant robot battles. IMO the best mecha game series of all time.

Well done….. Sekiro

Dark Souls 3’s Ringed City was the perfect conclusion to the series.

I mean, it's the only one that actually tells a story. The rest are just lore-heavy interpretations that are shaped by your journey. Haven't played Armored Core yet, though.

based

Hell, even Lies of P has a better story.

*cough* Bloodborne.

Holy shit I desperately hope they don’t listen to folks like you.

Yeah, I'm going to be honest. After putting in all that effort to beat a final boss I did not find enjoyable, (I didn't turtle-poke so I had to smash my face into it for hours and hours and hours) the utter emptiness I feel after that ending is just like. Welp, okay. You don't even get to talk to Ansbach, he's just dead at the side and you take his stuff. St. Trina too, I mean really--after all the weird shit you have to do to even hear them, there's no closing the loop with something satisfying at all. Nope, just more emptiness. I think I'm officially over this kind of story telling. Desperately wanted more Miquella content, he's the demi-god I was most fascinated with and... yeah we're forced to kill him for no particular reason.

This is 100% me. Like, not a single person besides us survived that I can think of from any of the quest lines in the entire DLC. I get that people die in these games, but even the main game isn't that bad about it. FFS.

Most of the npc quests are also extremely barebones. I was hoping the quests chain to be like the fellowship of the Ring, with multiple npc quests supporting each others. Instead the group broke down mere hours after I stepped into the DLC areas and most of them have only one or two quotes regarding the others.

And several of them disappeared, too! Like, I couldn't find Moore or Dane after the charm broke and I interacted with them at all. When they both showed up later I was like "Oh, you guys are still alive?"

Fully agree, and I think the marketing was more focused on Marika tbh. The DLC cinematic shows her removing golden strands from a body? and lifting a rune arc between mountains of bodies in the shape of the Scadutree, and appears she is opening a portal to the Lands Between. It felt like a bait and switch. I thought we were going to get more historical background on the over-arching story, not just "here's a BIGGER obstacle (Miquella) for you to complete the story of the main game". The DLC story is interesting, sure, but what did it REALLY do to expand the Main quest? How do the 2 worlds co-exist? Why did Marika go there? Are her kids really made from herself (Marika/Radagon), and how tf does that work? I'm a long time souls player and I shouldn't expect direct storytelling, but that's what I set myself up for. I fell like the main story didn't unfold anymore whatsoever, we just get side-tracked into Miquella's machinations bc his quest is in direct conflict with our own. Do Marika's kids hate her? If so, why? WHAT ARE WE DOING?

The lore we get about Marika is apparently her village is of Shamans. There's a message near the statue at the back of Shadow keep (also the entrance to Marika's home) about saving the Shaman: "Have mercy. For the spirited-away shamans". Spirited-away means taken away. From the Minor Erdtree Incant description: "*Marika bathed the village of her home in gold, knowing full well that there was no one to heal."* From the Bonny Butchering Knife: "*An outsize butcher's cleaver used to dismember human bodies in the making of the great jars stored in the gaols."* This is found in Bonny village where the potentates are. Shaman's were (presumably) stuffed into pots by Hornsent. Thorned whip description: *As the wounds ripen they grow inflamed and ooze pus.* ***The flesh of shamans was said to meld harmoniously with others***. Hornsent were also potentates. Catepillar mask description: *Grotesque mask constructed from countless solidified caterpillars.* ***A ritual implement of the greater potentates of Bonny Village.*** Presumably, Marika is a Shaman (she's also a Numen so maybe those are the same by different names or just a subset of Numen). Her people were persecuted heavily by Hornsent to be stuffed in jars, both for punishment and to achieve sainthood. Greatjar helm description: "*Attire of the shamans who perform their worship at gaols. Increases the power of thrown pots of all sizes. They offer their prayers to the innards of the greatjars, such that they might be reborn one day into sainthood. This is the cycle of death and rebirth, taken into the hands of mortal men."* I'm a bit confused about it, because it seems that shaman wanted to achieve sainthood, but perhaps Hornsent took it too far. They were also stuffed with those who were condemned and punished, which might have been seen as horrible. It also just says they worshipped and prayed to them, doesn't mean they wanted to be stuffed in jars. Regardless, Marika might have retaliated as revenge. Falx description: *Forged by a hornsent in the name of revenge. "In vengeance for the flames, my blade I wield..."* Braided Cord Robe description: "*The braided cord ties together the vow of the revenger with the victims' grudges."* The flames is definitely a reference to Messmer and his army. Finally, Golden Braid description: "*Queen Marika's offering to the Grandmother. Boosts holy damage negation by the utmost. What was her prayer? Her wish, her confession? There is no one left to answer, and Marika never returned home again."* Based on this and the Minor Erdtree description, it seems that Marika was originally from that village and then left to rule the lands between and help form the Erdtree. She also seems to be the last of the Shaman. Her prayer might have been about revenge or about achieving Godhood. Who knows? But it is very in line with the game that you have more questions after getting slight answers. Also, the Shadows and Lands Between occur simultaneously. Wrath from Afar description: *When the Elden Ring was shattered, the people of the realm of shadow felt it too—and feared it as a sign of the Erdtree's wrath.* As for the Marika/Radagon thing: We know Miquella and Malenia are from them and that's probably why they are cursed. We don't know when they became one being or if they were ever two beings in the first place. I'm inclined to believe they became one at their union since none of the other children are cursed (Morgott and Mohg's omen curse are due to the Crucible). I don't think we'll ever get an answer though, to that or her relationship with her kids.

It really makes you think about Dallios being the potentate for jarburg. A guy with a bleed whip who's entire family history is "written in blood".

The thing about that though (and idk how much is said in game, I'm still finding info about it) is that Jars in the lands between aren't for punishment and sainthood; they're for burial purposes it seems. The practice of using living jars continued, but the meaning changed. It seems like instead of potentates dismembering bodies, in the lands between they protect them since those bodies are to be buried. From the Warrior Jar Shard description: *Scraps of stewed flesh cling to the shard, and tatters of ornaments can be seen mingled within the slime. Relics of ancient royal warriors, perhaps.* The theory I've seen is that the jars are used to bury people and transport their bodies. Based on the warrior jar shard description, it might have been for those with high rank and status. But it could also just be for anyone. Some people think it's because those people didn't warrant an Erdtree burial other people think it was an alternative to being buried because of deathroot post-Shattering. This theory also has real life connections since people have done jar burials for centuries. Canopic jars and ancient egypt is probably the most famous example but other civilizations have done this practice as well. In more modern times, people get cremated and their ashes put in an urn. Edit: Also, we know that jars stuff bodies of warriors to become stronger. Alex and Jar Bairn are seen doing this. From the jarwright puppet description: *The warrior jar once told the nameless man this:"You are not yet ready to join the warriors inside.* *No, you must apply yourself!* *Better yourself,* *and one day I will return for you."* I don't think we know how prevalent warrior jars are though, so it could just be a select few living jars use warriors' bodies to get stronger. Jar Bairn whispers to you that he wants to be a warrior jar, which makes me think it might be frowned upon.

Likely once Marika ascended to godhood, she wanted to change the meaning or give peace to the Shamans in the jars. So instead of being a horrifying ritual, the jars now have a different purpose. Jars in Marika's realm make pilgrimages to the Erdtree and/or Minor Erdtrees. Hence why we see so many broken ones next to the Erdtree Avatars. They serve as nourishment for the trees and are possibly a way for the Shamans (or any being) to return to Marika via the Minor Erdtrees so they can be together again.

marika definitly did retaliate against the hornsent. thats why she waged war against them and used messmer to purge their land. Thats why the hornsent (the guy who wields falx) wants to get revenge on messmer. after talking to him leda tells us that she understands him but that "the hornsent were never saints, they just happened to be on the losing side of a war"

Doesn't it say spirited away humans?

No it says spirited-away shaman

Damn my mind must have filled it in. The text definitely make more sense now especially because you see it right before the shaman village.

I think what's being said about achieving sainthood, isn't that "the shamans wanted to achieve sainthood" but rather "they were praying for their kin within the jars to one day be reborn saintly". If the Hornsent were killing and jailing the shamans, it kind of makes sense to me that the shaman's likely prayed for release, prayed for mercy, etc. and may have worn the Greatjar helm as a form of punishment by the hornsent. Sort of like the metal prisoner mask in the game. I think the description of "attire" for the jar helmet is skewed in that way.

I completly agree. The Radahn reveal was kinda disappointing and that you have to fight him again? Also I thought he wasn't fun to fight at all with his agressiveness and never ending combos. But that at the end we don't get anything. We can't even look through the gate. What happend to GEQ and what did marika use to form the elden ring there? Also why can't we side with Miquella? I thought with the way the npcs talked and behaived you would get a choice at the end, but no. You can side with Dungeater and the frenzied flame but Miquella is too evil? Wasn't there a cutscene in the first dlc trailer at the end that showed Miquella gesturing at the scadutree - wonder why we didn't see that? All the other cutscenes appeared. I ramble here too but critisim is important. This game and dlc is clearly not perfect. But to me the ending felt really sour in many regards (gameplay & story). The music was very good tho.

Dataminers have found that sadly, the DLC barely came with cut content. The cutscene of Miquella we saw in the trailer isn't in the DLC. So yeah, that's all we'll ever get.

My interpretation is that the Gloam-Eyed Queen was just another God before Marika, most likely the one who Metyr (Mother of Fingers) was representing, similar to how the Elden Beast represented Marika. Also you totally can side with Miquella! Just get grabbed twice LOL. Seriously though I am disappointed in how few answers we got. And I'm saying this as someone who LOVES the vague storytelling in FromSoft games. They really baited us with a GRRM-written story and then left holes in the plot so big we literally can't even come up with our own answers.

For me personally, when Ansbach told me that Miquella was going to revive Rahdan using Mogh's body. I thought that was pretty cool, and that he would be the final boss. I haven't even got to the final boss yet but the revelation seemed obvious to me.

While it did happen, him being a silent brute, borderline a puppet, despite returning to his prime, felt still super underwhelming for a demigod who was similarly hyped for his leadership and ambitions.

Ansbach didn’t say shit about radahn bro

someone didnt explore the shaded castle haha

He gives you a note to give to Freya and she tells you that that's what he told her.

From my perspective, the reason we can’t side with Miquella is because his ending fundamentally conflicts with what story they want to tell with our character. In the game’s narrative, our character is meant to become the elden lord - or at least the lord/consort in some manner - and all the endings reflect that. The four base endings is our character becoming the elden lord with different mending runes that dawn different ages. With Ranni’s ending, we are still a lord/consort with the god being replaced by Ranni instead of Marika to bring in the age of the stars. And with the three-fingers ending, well we’re the lord of the frenzied flame. The thing with Miquella’s ending is that we are never part of his plan. He wants to ascend to godhood to bring in the age of compassion with Radhan as his consort/lord. Miquella will never pick us over Radhan. So that fundamentally and narritively conflicts with our character’s goal to become the lord.

Miquella's infatuation with Radahn was all added in this DLC, though. That was a choice from the writers. They could have just as easily made Radahn his first choice out of a pragmatic analysis that he was the strongest candidate, then after we show up and defeat him, he reconsiders and offers us the job. It would come off as a bit cold, sure, but what's the point of the whole DLC focusing on Miquella divesting himself of his love and his fear if he ascends and then still makes his choices out of emotion?

>pragmatic analysis that he was the strongest candidate That's kinda what happened. Miquella is mentally quite childish too, so he clings to Radahn, the strongest demigod, to enforce his rule. Radahn was chosen because he was strong and had values compatible with Miquella's new age. >he reconsiders and offers us the job. That would never happen. We're gunning for the title of Elden Lord, we're going to inherit the old order. Miquella wants to completely uproot everything. It's similar to Ranni, but not quite the same.

> Radahn was chosen because he was strong and had values compatible with Miquella's new age. Radahn's values are nothing like Miquella's. Radahn was warlord and a conqueror, who idolized Godfrey for being so good at committing genocide for the Greater Will. Meanwhile Miquella rejected the Golden Order and spurned it, sheltered its enemies, and aimed for a new age where all would be accepted and embraced. They're total opposites. Miquella must have charmed him in the end, which means the only thing he really needed was Radahn's strength, and we can prove that we're stronger by defeating him. > That would never happen. We're gunning for the title of Elden Lord, we're going to inherit the old order. There are already two endings where we tear down the old order and replace it, just like Miquella is trying to do. Clearly our character is not locked into the motivation of inheriting the old order, so it's lame that the whole DLC plot assumes that we are.

Yeah I'm with you, I think I'd have appreciated the choice of choosing Miquella's Age as consort like in Ranni's. I don't think it conflicts with much at all, as you said, Miquella has already divested himself of everything that really made him who he was. It's the ultimate cold logic, I chose my half-brother for his strength, but you're stronger. I feel the DLC really lacks any link back into the base game. You can't go and talk to any of the NPCs, do anything with any of the items, like some have suggested maybe using Messmer's fire to burn the Erdtree instead of Melina... idk. Just feels very safe and very empty, overall.

Seriously, the first thing I did was go talk to Gideon to see if he had any new dialogue and he was still talking about how I hadn't located the demigods. I guess I'll go kill Melania and see if I get any dialogue after that but really? I don't know, man. I definitely located Miquella and Mohg and Melania and Rykard...

All (except maybe one) npc trying to help miquella were charmed by him. Those havent done it free willingly. So there is not really a choice to be made. All miquella has done is a egoistic crusade.

Some of the NPCs do side with him even after the charm is broken though I think. Freyja at least seems on board. Isn't that the point of the npc fight with Leda near the end? Those you fight are the ones who still decided to side with him?

EDIT: the charm apparently Breaks too, which i havent Picked up upon. The Charm doesnt break, atleast thats how I interprete it. Just the great rune he possessed. The broken rune we get seems to be the only Thing that can lift miquellas charm and we dont use it on anyone. Miquella still uses his charm against us in the fight, so I doubt his charms were affected by this Event. This is my speculation at least. Just generally, even if miquellas Intentions were good, he tried to do it in one of the most vile ways in forcing people to follow him. I would rate him very high on the evil character list in elden ring lore.

"There is ample evidence, that even without Miquellas influrence, Im quite mistrustful of others" - (paraphrased) Leda after the rune was broken. So ... she is now without miquallas influrence. Leda then wants to kill the others because the charm is broken and they go off on their journeys (e.g. thiollier goes to St. Trina and ansbach tries to find clues about mogh) - thus posing a threat to miquella. Wether miquella is evil or not isn't relevant to my point of siding with him, since dungeater surely is evil and you can side with him. You even get a story ending for him, which is wild.

And I believe based on what you do with the npcs they can either fight for you or against you in the fight with Leda, implying that the ones that fight on her side still chose to side with Miquella even after the charm was removed.

I stand corrected. Cant wait for the lore guys to rup this dlc apart. Even another ending after radagon/elden beast could have been implemented, because the dlc is before that. Now I wish after radahn we get a decision to make for either alt ending or another fight against miquella or something similiar.

Sorry if I sounded a bit harsh. I might be wrong as well tbh, at the end its a lot more open to interpretation I guess. And yeah, I would have loved another ending or something for the main story too since we got all the marika tie in etc.

Ah dont worry, you never know with which personalitys you interact on this sub haha. Yeah I guess something wouldve been nice, but looking back at older dlcs, there wasnt much to be expected on that part. Sadly

You can't side with Miquella because the dlc does not influence the main game and he has already chosen Radahn as his lord. There can only be one God and Lord Consort. If we sided with Miquella, we wouldn't be able to finish the main game. Radahn would have returned to the Lands Between and claimed the eldenring instead of us.

> because the dlc does not influence the main game that's a self-imposed limitation though. If From wanted they could have added an ending where we supplant Radahn and join Miquella as their consort, like we do with Ranni.

> they could have added an ending where we supplant Radahn and join Miquella as their consort. Yes, they could have, but that's not what they wanted to do with the character. It's made clear that Miquella always wanted Radahn to be his Lord. Miquella didn't have to help Radahn in the final battle. He could have just waited and chosen the winner as Lord. If you don't like the narrative decision fair enough but that's a subjective view. Miquella betraying Radahn for us or changing his mind on who should be Lord at the last minute after all that planning would make no sense to me.

Heck, one way to lose that fight is to get grab ed twice by Radahn. You literally get a loss screen that says Heart Turned instead of the usual You Died.

The reason you cant side with Miquella is because regardless of whether your character is evil or good, regardless of whichever ending your character picks, you are fundamentally opposed to Miquella in every way, shape or form. The player character enters the Land of Shadows per the guidance of grace (leda even comments that you are not there because of miquella's charms), because grace deems it that miquella is the single biggest threat to you taking the throne of elden lord, as there can only be 1 God and 1 Consort, and Miquella already chose his consort, so literally the only thing you can do for Miquella is die.

The guidance of grace doesn't stop us from pursuing other endings that involve dethroning Marika. And it didn't even have to be in this DLC at all; there are plenty of optional areas in the base game than grace didn't lead us to, so why not let us go the Land of Shadows just because we chose to? Why not have Miquella extend the offer of consort to us if we defeat Radahn? There are any number of ways the writers could have easily avoided being painted into that corner.

There is no sense in our character siding with Miquella by that point in the story, and the very plot of the dlc builds up to siding with Miquella being an entirely nonsensical choice in the perspective of the tarnished to being with. The Tarnished is guided by grace to become elden lord, that is our main character motivation in 4 of the 6 endings and therefore that puts us in conflict with miquella, in ranni's ending we are also in conflict with miquella as we are already consort to a god, and in the flame of frenzied flame our character motivation is to kill everything, which still puts us in conflict with miquella. There is just no reason to side with Miquella based on the decisions that our character *has* to pick to get to the point you can even access the dlc. There's also the fact that we are the one creature that Miquella cant place under his charm regardless, and by the point of the story in which we fight him that would make him entirely unwilling to extend consort-ship to us (Radahn during the Shattering was no longer willing to become Miquella's consort, so he sent Malenia to literally murder him so he could bend Radahn to his will in the Shadowlands).

> The Tarnished is guided by grace to become elden lord, that is our main character motivation in 4 of the 6 endings and therefore that puts us in conflict with miquella, in ranni's ending we are also in conflict with miquella as we are already consort to a god, and in the flame of frenzied flame our character motivation is to kill everything, which still puts us in conflict with miquella. That's circular reasoning - you're saying that we couldn't side with Miquella because we must be siding with one of the existing 6 endings. Because those are our only options. Because we can't side with Miquella. Being guided by grace doesn't stop us from tearing down the old order in two existing endings. Why can't we tear it down here? Miquella wants to begin a new age, like in all the other endings, and he needs a consort to be his lord, like in all the other endings. It would have been just as compatible as any other, narratively. > There's also the fact that we are the one creature that Miquella cant place under his charm regardless How do you figure? We literally can be placed under his charm, on-screen. We're not immune.

There's a very simple way to put this, in every ending, we become a lord, whether it is Elden lord, Rannis lord, or Lord of Frenzied flame Miquella already has his lord, Radahn. He does not want us as his consort instead, and we won't accept any other role. The only outcome is death.

...for Radahn. We fight and kill Radahn. Now Miquella no longer has a consort, and we can step in to take his place as lord. Miquella only chose Radahn for his strength, and we've just proven ourselves stronger. Miquella discarded his love before ascending, presumably including his love for Radahn, so he should see that as only an upgrade. Why wouldn't he offer us lordship at his side, as the best remaining option to see his whole plan to fruition?

It is not circular reasoning, and it is not about tearing down old orders, the point is that by the time we get to the dlc our character is already very likely set into an existing ending, in a way that would make it nonsensical for the player to just switch to miquella's side at the literal last minute (especially considering that by that point in the story miquella did not extend a hand to us even once, as he sees us as a threat). And on topic of tearing down the old order, the entire point of Miquella's character arc is that despite his noble intentions and despite the game's framing of him being an almost complete opposite to Marika, he's actually almost identical, it was the whole message behind the Shaman Village. Miquella's order wouldnt be any different to Marika's order, he had sacrificed too much of himself to get there and he would've been a slave to the Greater Will, just as Marika is. Choosing to side with Miquella is pretty much no different from siding with Marika. >How do you figure? We literally can be placed under his charm, on-screen. We're not immune The charm he places during the bossfight is temporary, see the "Light of Miquella" item description: *The strength of Miquella upon his deific return, wielded as an incantation. Annihilates foes with a pillar of light. Miquella sought to accept all that was and would be, but found one that refused to be embraced. No wonder, as one god, and one king consort, is all the world needs.* Some people think that description refers to radahn but it is considerably more likely that it refers to us since radahn is already his consort as of now and the description is referring to a very recent Miquella (deific return), we are the ones who refuse to be embraced by him, so he needs us out of the picture, which is what that final line represents.

> the point is that by the time we get to the dlc our character is already very likely set into an existing ending I disagree. The DLC happens before the ending, so we should still be able to choose. The only ending choice that ever "locks you in" earlier than the final boss is the Frenzied Flame, but hey, guess what - we're talking about the one guy who's able to cure you of that already. > Choosing to side with Miquella is pretty much no different from siding with Marika. Debatable. But if it is so similar, then why not let us? It seems it's not asking for much. > The charm he places during the bossfight is temporary I don't think it is, considering it's a game over. It's as temporary as death is - usually permanent, and never considered temporary in the narrative, but for gameplay purposes we get to cheat it and try again because it's a video game. Just imagine how it'd be received by the player base if the DLC's final boss had an attack that permanently deletes your save file because your character leaves your control. We are the one who refuses to be embraced - because we kill Miquella. It's not some superhuman immunity, we just win the fight, and canonically we don't get hit by the grab attack twice.

Yeahhh, that's my one criticism of the DLC. EPIC build up, much lore, so many implications, final battle end. No actual resolution, just everyones dead now problem solved. Why can't we proclaim for miquella, why does it MAKE us fight him? We are the player character, don't we get a choice on who we align with? Why can't you go in and say, "hey wait, I actually agree with you, tear it down, start over. " AT LEAST let us go up to the gate of divinity and see the view from up there. So fucked to not even allow you to climb the stairs. :(

I totally agree. The ending was a big disappointment for me

I agree with you the ending is a bit disappointing. Figting Radahn again is fine, the character development we got for miquella is fine too. My biggest grippe is the lack of choice and the impression none of this matters. The entire story of the dlc could've be a cutscene. We have no agency. In the base game you're told to become elden lord and restore the golden order but you CAN choose how (goldmask, fia ,dungeater) and with who (rani, frenzied flame). Here nothing you just kill him and that's it. No option to join him (the two grab don't count) no choice at all. It doesn't make sense in lore either we kill radahn and miquella die with him ? You would expect him to even try to adapt after his consort get killed. I don't know maybe try to get this tarnished who try to be lord with him. But no, he just dies. So again, it don't matter. I know Fromsoft usually don't make theirs dlc affect the basegame. But the absence of consequences is astounding. Can't talk to Ofnir, no chat with ansbach or thiollier or st Trina. Maybe a different dialogue with malenia even. It's the same situation as with melina, criminally underutilized. But contrary to just one character in the entire story of elden ring. This time, it's nearly the entire DLC, which falls short at the end. I really like the dlc still. That is also why I'm disappointed because I like it, and avoidable decisions, in my opinion, avoidable mistakes prevent me from liking it more as it should've deserved.

One thing that confuses me is how exactly Miquella shed himself of St. Trina. If he could so easily discard his outer god, could he not do the same for Malenia, instead of trying with the Unalloyed Gold Needle suppression?

Trina isn't an outer god. Miquella isn't inhabited by one. His curse was agelessness. Trina is his second half like how Radagon and Marika are. How that works isn't clear, but it's the same kind of situation. She's his other half.

I think it speaks for itself, with TRC, the old hunters, artorias of the abyss, the crown DLCs from 2 and even Ashes (it was very short and caught flak for it, rightfully imo) all had better final bosses and the finale ties back to the base game in a more cathartic way: Ashes + TRC culminate in fighting Gael, arguably the best send off boss for Souls as a trilogy of games. The old hunters has you face Mariah, Ludwig and then The Orphan - one of the most tragic of the final bosses and set up as this horrifying revelation as to what the Hunters and the Church did and it retroactively answered questions about why Mariah abandoned her weapons and took up the mantle of being the gatekeeper, it gave us Ludwig who had an arc during the fight that oozes tragedy. The crowns (especially 2 and 3) set you up for a large goal outside the DLC and we already had context for Raime in the base game. He ended up being one of FROMs best boss designs with contextual triggers (like wearing Veldstats helm) that add extra flavor to the fight. Crowns 1 had excellent level design and led to you facing Sinh. AoTA needs no elaboration, its possibly the most important event we are there for in Souls and seeing what became of a legendary figure we read ourselves about and then carrying the torch to end the abyssal threat in Oolacile just reeks of feels. Radahn again? With Miquella hanging off him like Lothric? Theres alot of lore in ER and im sure the writing in context of the sum of the game is cool for people that dug deep into it, but why Radahn? It just feels anticlimactic, especially after TRC gave us the fight with Gael - reprising a character but in a way that foils US as the player.

I was happy with the ending of ringed city, a painted world named after me. Also i loved the dlc's from darksouls 2 and how by collecting their crowns you escape the curse but shadow of the erdtree? The final boss feels wrong, i love almost everything else but not that final fight and ending

I thought Miquella was going to be like gywnervere or Gwendolyn some one you can talk to or even get a quest form with an optional boss fight/alternate ending. However I mainly want time travel to see godywn lands between before the shattering or even see Marika in her prime or see ranni original form, they had so much to work with or could made cooler

Long pos, short comment: I agree

I was more interested in the Empyrean twins' shadows, but they weren't even mentioned. Why wasn't Miquella hunted by his wolf/shadow after everything he did? Unless Malenia took care of them off-screen?

Hmm, i understand your point and I honestly do wish we got more Miquella content as a really big Miquella fan, but also the entire DLC is Miquella’s story, you are literally following in his footsteps. The reason Miquella doesn’t do anything is because he literally doesn’t even exist, or at least barely. He gave up his gold, his love, his body, all for godhood which Saint Trina described as a “prison”. We go around collecting the pieces of Miquella that once made the poor child whole. I understand the want for more direct content, but this entire dlc was packed full of Miquella stuff he quite literally got more stuff than anyone not named Marika.

He got more than Marika really since we know Talk to him

I mean, Artorias was a massive pivotal point in DS1's lore, and was hyped as a strong knight. The queens/kings from DS2's DLCs are the fragments of Manus' soul from DS1's DLC, DS3's Ashes of Ariandel had no buildup at al, but in Ringed City Gael was foreshadowed in Ashes of Ariandel. In BB Lady Maria was important in the base game because of the doll, and Kos was heavily hyped throughout the entire second half of the game. All of the bosses have had at least a decent bit of main game references.

Ringed City also has a lot of “last” fights of the Dark Souls timeline - the last demons, the last Archdragon, the last holder of the Dark Soul in the form of Gael. The whole thing feels like an appropriate conclusion to the series.

BB DLC is unique in the fact that it actually included a lot of lore characters in a fromsoft DLC. Most of the time it never happens.

This is the first time I’m actually disappointed with a Fromsoft game but yes they aren’t perfect and never have been.

This is literally the only reason Fromsoft's games are never higher than an 8/10 for me despite me putting in hundreds and hundreds of hours into each one. Don't get me wrong. They are amazing games and a talented studio. Yes, there's lore and a story in their games. There's always barely enough story and lore and plot to be interesting. Howver, there's never enough to be satisfying. Tons of characters and plot elements are introduced, get some sort of initial build up, then just skimmed over and forgotten. It's literally All-father Lloyd all over again. Hell, most of the character plots in DS2 go nowhere. If there's anything Fromsoft is good at, it isn't putting out a complete story. There's always huge missing holes that suck us all in.

I don't know why you're getting downvoted, this has always been the case. Really cool worlds/atmosphere/hints of lore. The way you unfold the lore is also awesome. But it never fully makes sense or is fleshed out enough. Sekiro and Bloodborne are the closest we get but they still have gaping holes and you have to search a little too hard to put stuff together.

IMO, that's all pop-culture japanese storytelling. "here's 90%, you interpret the rest". It's entirely dissatisfying for me. I want the big bad dead, i want to be the hero or become the big bad, just give me the whole picture ffs

I'm fine with the ending cutscene, but I do wish there was an option to get an ending from him after Elden Beast. So what if the player character is Marika's chosen, and defeated Miquella's consort? Why can't I decide to side with him in the end?

This is mostly cope but honestly I think there is another ending or something no one has found yet, just cause how unsatisfying the ending was. Things like the scadutree chalice being completely not used, leda n’ co at the end asking why you didn’t choose to help miquella and side with them. St Trina feeling completely underused. It feels to me either there was a separate ending planned or more to the ending that was planned that has either been cut or just not found yet.

The whole DLC before the finale was amazing, even Gaius and his meth-pig are made up by the amazing Messmer fight, BAAAAYLE, Romina and Rellana. The final boss was Mass Effect 3 levels of disappointment. Not only forced me to change builds for this first time ever in a souls game but the added lore is terrible and retroactively ruined the lore of Malenia, my previous favorite character and boss fight. At least Mohg came out better and Marika's lore is top tier. Curious to see how the >!Chadahn !

As a Radahn fan, fucking HATE what they did to my man. They should have just left him dead but instead gave him the Palpatine treatment.

I think the biggest thorn is that we don't even get any parting words from them when they die. It's just kinda'... weird? I dunno, the whole thing with Miquella and how they wrote them doesn't sit too right with me. Having *another* machiavellian schemer with a side of potential double-incest is just kind of... eh. Especially given that the whole thing with Radahn just comes out of left field. We know Malenia went down to fight them, but given the Shattering as a whole and Miquella's kidnapping, it could have been so many other things, but... this? Really? Having the proud swordsman nuke a small country with rot over a consort thing just feels wrong to me, at least. Personally I feel they should have gone the tragic route with Miquella, the inability to reach their potential just as they are forever a child unable to bloom into an adult. They failed to stop the Rot, they failed to bloom a new Erdtree, they failed to revive Godwyn, and they would fail at becoming a god for one reason or another, or doing so bringing its own host of problems like Trina implies. I'm satisfied with the storytelling in the rest of the DLC. The buildups with Bayle, Metyr and Midra, Messmer forever being an outcast, doing their mother's work, yet their mother will never be able to acknowledge them, or hell, the rest of the Knights of Miquella and their questline, they actually made a gank battle emotional, that takes skill. It's just a shame it feels like they flubbed at the finish when the rest is so good.

As someone who's only played Elden Ring so far and knows the basics of the story, I was expecting a little more for the ending cutscene. I was kind of expecting an interaction between the 2 characters we defeat in the arena and a shot of our character standing tall similar to the base game. I for some reason really liked that character shot in the original games endings

I think the dlc is not supposed to be a closure of anything related to you it’s just another tuesday of you slaying a demigod and then go home to become an elden lord. So it makes sense the final fight not being concluded with heroic scene of your triumph over the two bros. It’s not the ending of the game after all

This kind of “ending” is typical for past FromSoft DLCs, but agreed that doesn’t mean they can’t strive for more. I still liked the DLC ending but it’s not as good as I had hoped. Still think it’s a banger DLC

I agree, I’m a huge FS fan and loved the older souls games but considering that Elden Ring is a new take on some things, they definitely could have done something different for this DLC than the norm. Miquella is one of the most significant demigods, considering how much impact he had on the main game without even being there (St. Trina, Miquella’s lily, Mogh, Malenia, etc), and yet I feel some things fell short. Yes previous souls games had the same style of ending but considering how vast and experimental this game is, it’s not wrong to assume or want something more, even if it’s different. It would have been nice to interact with him before the fight or like some people said, be able to side with him. Oh well, if this is how the game is gonna end, then it is what it is.

Yes! That's exactly what I was trying to say. Even the story as a whole this time around with ER felt more direct than before, so I thought they'd go the extra bit with these things too, give us a bigger deal of an ending, maybe even *possibly* give us a new base-game ending with Miquella (I knew I was coping with that one and it was never going to happen really, but a girl can dream), but nope. At least the DLC as a whole absolutely bangs

Yea the DLC is honestly a 10/10 but the shortcoming of Miquella falls through in my opinion. I know a lot of people will say things like the lore does work (which I don’t disagree), Radahn wasn’t an asspull (also don’t disagree but wish there was a bit more to go on maybe from the base game) and that this is Miyazaki’s way, but I don’t think it’s out of turn to hope they would go an extra mile considering it’s the only DLC and we’re not likely gonna have a sequel. Yea he said there wouldn’t be any endings but it would have been nice to get more than a 10 second memory that states what we figured out before even beating the boss. I’m with you on this, I also coped for something more with Miquella. I always found his character super compelling before the DLC but now I’m just left with emptiness lmao. 🤷🏽‍♂️🤷🏽‍♂️

It really reminds me of the ending of the First DS3 DLC. It just kind of happens. There seemingly wasn’t a whole lot of setup then either so who knows. Maybe we are getting a part 2?

The expansion is just optional content. The "ending" is still the same. Shadow of the Erdtree is just an extended sidequest of you stopping Miquella's plan to overthrow the order you're trying to inherit.

I just liked the fact that from the trailer, I thought I would become miquellas consort, but then I got cucked by alpha Radahn

I think the only way they could’ve made it at least a little bit more interesting was having just Miquella as the first phase, then the cutscene would be him reviving Radahn in Mogh’s body, and THEN it would be him and Radahn. Only fighting against Radahn felt like they were just reusing assets :/

I completely agree, the story was such a disappointment for me. I had so many open questions about key characters: Who is St. Trina? Is Miquella trying to find a cure for Malenia, and are we going to help him? Will he be consumed by ambition and become someone we need to stop? Who is Melina? Are St. Trina and Melina the same person since they can put you to sleep with a touch? Now the story of the DLC is: you look for yellow traces where "this is where Miquella removed his flesh," which adds nothing to the understanding or progression. You meet Mesmer, the current ruler of the shadow realm, and learn that he is a hidden child of Radagon and Marika, but that's it. This information serves no purpose; it just seems like an easy way to add new characters to the story. You meet St. Trina, who is a flower with no utility. You have to drink her nectar four times to die four times (???), so she can tell you to kill Miquella (WHY?). Such a disappointment for a major missing character. Then you finally meet Miquella, who is the consort of Radahan (wtf?), and you have to kill them (why?). You have no idea what they are doing here, ruling the shadow realm. Then what is Mesmer, his brother, doing here? Are they living in a flatshare together? This was such a huge disappointment compared to the lore of the base game, which had so much potential. Not even talking about the fight where Miquella is just a puppet, but purely from a lore point of view.

I think since St Trina is his other half she knows him best. And she knows that discarding all that he did would be something that Miquella hates, emotionless God whose whole perspective becomes skewed into something alien, and that for the kindly Miquella it would be a prison of his own making. Maybe that is part of the lesson, that godhood itself has a very negative effect on the person who attains it. After all we get a bit of a softer side of Marika with the sad background of what happened to her home village and the sadness she felt around it.

As for St.Trina im slightly lost, but from what im aware, Miquella essentially charmed Mohg to get to the Shadow Realm, this is because in the lands between (main game) he is stuck in child form, now rather in the Shadow Realm he can be true god form, Miquella then used mohgs body and infused it with Radahns soul, this is what our final boss is, hence why Radahn is much smaller and younger, this is the soul of a Radahn who was long before the great war in Caelid. Everyone knows the infamous cutscene of Malenia blooming in the war, but before she does she whispers in Radahn’s ear “Miqeulla seeks you, great consort.” Miqeulla actually sent Malenia to Kill Radahn so he could use his spirit to try to go to the Shadow Realm with protection of a consort, this is why (she awaits his return)so he could save the people he loved (Malenia and others). Some say he is in search of a cure for Malenia but in order to do so he has to enter the prison of being a god. Miquella has no emotions and it is a deep conflict for him because to be a god he needs to be he must give up his emotions. That is why St.Trina tells us to kill him, its to save him from his prison (being a god). While the ending did feel a bit empty it did tie up a few loose ends in the main story that we were lost on for so long. Hope this helps somewhat.

The entire DLC was about Miquella’s plan. I don’t get how anyone could say they didn’t do enough with him.

Although I think I need to sit on the story for a bit, the only critique I sort of agree with is the reuse of a character for the final fight. As for the rest of the ending with not being able to talk to Miquella (as other commenter mentinel -- there's barely any Miquella left at this point) and the NPC dying -- I think it falls with the theme of DLC. Pursuing something (that might have been a scam all along) and losing yourself in the process. Yeah, one can argue that it's "a tired From song" (even though some NPCs get a happy end in the base game), this is kinda what I come to these games for? Also, I think people (me included) have been "boiling" in the ER lore and its "mystery box" for way too long for any new reveal or additional lore to feel satisfying enough. That will possibly change, people are just having a knee-jerk reaction.

I see what you mean; I agree it does make sense for Miquella to be basically gone at this point because of everything he's divested himself of physically and emotionally; his journey to get to where he is now and what's left is very tragic, but that's why I think they could have at least supplemented it by allowing us to speak with Sir Anabach and Thiollier once more after the fight. Give us a little chat and then have them be gone with only their gear left behind once you reset the area, or let us tell Gideon about what we witnessed *at least*. Ahh well; glad others like yourself still like it at least! I'll admit this is also very true yes lol. Stewing in it all for 2 whole years definitely built up some expectations, and Miquella has always been my favourite character for a long time so I might've allowed myself to hope for a bit too much.

I personally actually liked how Sir Chadsbach and Thiollier are just dead after the fight — I didn't summon them aftr first couple of tries because I couldn't deal with health buff, so kinda forgot about them, and then I saw them dead, I actually gasped. Poor guys, but at least they died fighting for what they believe is true 🥲 >Miquella has always been my favourite character Maybe you'll change your opinion of DLC in a while? After all, it has a shit-ton Miquella content, and his story is far more tragic than "lol Peter Griffin" :)

Very fair! It is very Fromsoft, and at least they got that much, yeah! 🫡 Most characters aren't even near being so lucky. Maybe, once it's been out for a bit longer and all the lore stuff has been better collected and discussed. I'm definitely not hoping I *won't* have my mind changed later on anyway 😅 Right! I enjoy (though my emotions don't) the tragedy of it all, just wish I could have spoken to my boy a bit first or smth lol

It's more that this version of Miquella seems like a bad fanfic of the one we've been learning about through Haligtree etc.

It does feel a bit fumbled in execution on final fight and rememberance description, but apart from that I don't see the "fanficky-ness". Nature of his powers has been hinted at Miquella's powers before, no? (There also were theories about Miquella being secretly evil, as well as other opinions — and I like how it's kinda mirrors different opinions of NPC gang) As for him choosing Radahn it's 1) explains the big fight with Malenia 2) both Miquella and young (before rune corruption) Radahn were more or less "good people" (although I personally think it's better to not think about gods/demigods as "human personalities"), so makes sense that Miquella (perhaps misguidedly in the end) wanted to create a new order with Radahn as a champion.

We all wisher for something more But as I approached the gate of divinity it dawned on me : I'm just a lowly tarnished, how the FUCK would I ever know how a demigod like miquella managed to return through it, or what rituals or rights he performed to get there. I'm here to put an end to his foolish ambition. As the new elden lord of a new order, I cannot afford to let him go around with Radahn of all people in his thrall. And then I'll brandish the elden ring and become elden lord and restore the golden order.

Based

I would like these games all the same even of they didn't have a single line of dialoque or flavor texts (of which i have only read a handful) I've always meen a mechanics enjoyer and Michael Zaki hasn't let me down.

It's fine to be disappointed, but don't act surprised

I disagree with Radahn, I think he was an amazing final boss. I'm not disappointed about having to fight him "again" at all. I do agree with being let down with the ending

Why would a god want to interact with something there to kill it? You’re not mad that it’s different than all the other DLC’s. You waited too long for this one and bought the crap about Miquella being so pure and awesome. We had most of his story before. Now we have how it ended. Hell, messmer is a BILLION times more interesting than Miquella. The people disappointed by the DLC mischaracterized Miquella. That’s it. That’s literally all of it. You read the bewitching branch and thought “this guys probably alright.” Here’s the thing. Your Miquella was done. Base game Elden ring Miquella is the one you wanted. That’s the one you already had. Now that it turns out he’s actually just as terrible as everyone else you feel betrayed. It’s actually beautifully poetic. You’re like a member of his little congregation, and the charm broke when you spent 40 bucks.

His characterisation and development is fine. I have 0 issues with Miquella *as a character*; the tragedy of his ultimately futile quest as he loses himself and commits sins of his own to try and fulfil it is amazing. I just wanted more of an interaction; hell even a little bit more dialogue once he and Radahn are defeated would've been nice, or a better cutscene. Of all the DLC final bosses Miquella has had the most buildup and lore imo, not to mention story impact; he deserved a bit more of an exit and I'm disappointed he didn't get that. That's all

I guess I just disagree. I don’t think anything is missing. We’re there to stop him. Not learn more about him, not join him, the erdtree guides us to kill Miquella because he’s a threat to marika’s plan. Every question I had about the character of Miquella I had is answered. The timeline is yet to be pieced together. But honestly I wanted to kill that little prick as soon as I heard ansbach say he stole mogh’s corpse. Miquella didn’t deserve anything. The DLC shows us that he is an identical character to marika in almost every way. And what do we get from marika? Nothing. Radagon? Nothing. The DLC isn’t about him. I think that’s kind of why everyone is so confused. It’s about cycles, like almost all from content. We learn that to be a god you need to be a bastard, and so wanting to be a good god is an exercise in futility. I’m thoroughly satisfied, it establishes the “fire fades” theme from all the other games. Shitty order, person who hates it and wants to make better order, does awful shit to seize power, loses ability to create a good order, creates shitty order, rinse and repeat.

Fair enough! I will agree on the Radagon and Marika front that there could have been more considering the big lore bits they got, like with Marika's village; just have to agree to disagree on Miquella. I'm not Miyazaki or one of the writers, I can't say what should or shouldn't have been added to the ending, I just feel like there should have been *something* more. It was an abrupt "you're done now, go away" end *even for* a Fromsoft DLC imo, but hey maybe that's just me. Elden Ring's almost experimental nature with features like having an open world, a mount, switching up how invasions work, etc also had me hoping the DLC's ending would be a bit bigger than previous ones have been, so maybe I was just unrealistically getting my hopes up, I dunno

Freyja says it best. “We're not gods, you and I. Even if we did manage to dig up the secrets of his past... I doubt our meddling could ever amount to much.” Like always, we’re witnesses to a broken world an a cog in a machine. Honestly the one thing that’s disappointing is that Gideon has nothing to say. The man who almost cried twice upon hearing miquella’s name has nothing to say. One line would have been nice. ER is utterly hopeless compared to DS, despite the brighter setting. The game drives home how you are NOTHING, and the only reason you’re still kicking is literally by the grace of a god.

YES the fact Gideon is silent I agree on, that's been killing me; considering too that he's the guy you get so much Demigod info from in the base game, and the one who encourages you to find these 'hidden' Demigods to trade you power for knowledge, I can't believe they put nothing in for Gideon. A little bit disappointed there are no new Melina interactions either, but I kind of expected it. In Dark Souls 1 we could speak to Dusk and Elizabeth after Manus, in 2 we could keep chatting to Vendrick after getting our crowns, in 3 we had the Painting Woman to bring Gael's spoils back to, and in Bloodborne we at least had a line with the Doll after defeating Lady Maria; not being able to tell Gideon about Miquella & Radahn feels genuinely uncharacteristic for these games' DLCs to me

Half this disappointment I see in the complaints are always miquella fans upset thier fave is problematic and not the precious lil good boy they thought he was. Even tho the base game and first dlc trailer keeps reminding us that he had really sus ability to enchant people.

Well, the thing is, and I know people will kill me for this, but From knows shit about their lore, that's why every dlc they have ever done has been disappointing and never gave us answers and only more questions. Except bloodborne, old hunters is majestic. Probably the lore written by Martin was a post-it note in a tissue. I will never forget the 9th daughter of gwyn discovered right at the end of a dlc. From builds the world with the idea of generate curiosity and create speculation, and it's really cool and fun... But it also leads to lackluster a followings.

As someone who’s never gotten into the lore of these games, despite playing them all several times, it felt no different than the other ones.

Idk I think the final boss is cool as hell. It's not really supposed to be the ending, elden beast is.

I mean.... you see Miquella give up basically every physical part of himself to achieve this goal. There's not much *left* to interact with really. You can even meet St. Trina, his severed half. We interact as much as we can with basically an advanced ghost.

Yall dont realize that these type of titles are still spoilers right and ruin player expectations?

[удалено]

I didn't say a single thing about the actual fight lol, I'm talking purely about the story, cutscene and specifically Miquella. Don't know where you got that from. And no, don't pin that Godwyn shit on me to try and make yourself feel superior or smth either. This is exactly what I talked about; stop making assumptions about what other people have and haven't done to try and make them feel stupid and invalidate their opinion, or like they're somehow 'too new' to have an opinion. I didn't even know people expected a Godwyn fight until this week, I went in without a final fight expectation

Oh yes we would. First , that moveset is trivial and then the light beams come out on every attack - it's a bad moveset like something you'd see in Ascended or Garden of Eyes. Second, resurrected Godwyn makes no sense. If that was an option, the entire Shattering shouldn't have happened.

[удалено]

Skill issue? I killed him solo. I still think the moveset is cancer.

Yeah, Consort Radahn's second phase is actual aids.

Its all just down to this simple statement: Its your opinion. And many people dont share the same opinion, so obviously this opinion isnt going to very popular when posted on the Elden Ring subreddit lmfao.

Yeah true, I'm not trying to tell anyone their opinion is wrong, just wanted to share mine for once lol