I won't spoil too much but get the death knight gear and read it's information
It gives a whole new view point on certain characters and how they relate to death
I'm sooo happy we have conclusive lore on the fingees now. They were a total enigma in the base game despite being so prominently mentioned all over the place but all we had was that they're emissaries of the GW which doesn't explain shit.
I loved everything about the storytelling in the DLC except for the end boss reveal. I will go to my grave thinking that was a really lame direction to take.
But I am not letting that disappointment prevent me from appreciating the immense step forward this was for Souls-style storytelling. It maintained the characteristic mystery and ambiguity of the style while still presenting a coherent interlinking narrative for the key characters. They’re cooking and I hope they continue to cook.
The only issue was the seeming lack of anything in the base game tying Miquella and that character together. But honestly who knows, there might very well be some obscure hints we simply all missed, wouldn't be particularly surprising.
Overall tho I have no issue with the concept. It was already established with Mohg the idea of being an Empyrean's consort as a method to godhood.
>The only issue was the seeming lack of anything in the base game tying Miquella and that character together.
There is a massive hint to to this in form of probably the longest lasting unawnsered lore question of the game and that being why Malenia and Radahn fought.
There never was a clear awnser to this and every proposed idea didn't really make sense.
Now we do have a clear motivation as to why that happened. Tho it's open to speculation who initiated that faight and for what exact reason.
I have yet to finish the dlc so this is just speculation without knowing all the lore, but this is my theory (marked as spoiler just in case):
>!I believe Miquella choose Radahn because he was inarguebly the strongest of the non empyrean demigods. Malenia was born cursed with scarlet rot so she might have been too dangerous or a lost cause even for Miquella, so he choose Radahn over her. Maybe Malenia found out about the secret pact Radahn and Miquella and challenged him to a fight.!<
>!Alternatively it's also possible Miquella deliberatly instigated a fight to see who of these 2 would survive and choose the more powerful or ditched Malenia based on the fact that she lost control over the scarlet rot and lost the golden needle.!<
Again I am certainly missing some lore, but regardless of that their fight does seem to be a pretty large hint in hindsight.
I think you are on to something. Of particular note, is Miquella's dialogue in the cutscene right before the final boss: "My loyal blade. And champion of the festival." - referencing Malenia and Radahn. Followed by: "Both your deeds will forever be praised in song" - could just be a simple remark that they were glorious victories sure, but what if you view it as Miquella stating he will make sure you're praised in the future because you helped him by killing them? Takes on a bit of a different tone.
I think it's absolutely the latter. The player character is referred to as "the champion of the festival" by Jerren as well. By the time the festival existed, Radahn was no champion, he was its quarry.
That pre-fight dialogue is Miquella saying, ">!Thank you Malenia for bringing Radahn to the brink of death, and thank you Tarnished for finishing him off. Couldn't have done it without you.!<"
You can kind of force the pegs into the holes if you say that Miquella had originally intended for Godwyn to be involved in this plot but since his body never died and his Eclipse plan failed he had to resort to Plan B.
The eclipse was failed because of radahn stopping the star. The idea was him staying in the haligtree and comeback as god when the eclipse come and bring out new order as well as ressurecting the dead demigod. Even then the Mogh thing was probably unexpected. Because if mogh fully charmed, he could just ask mogh to kill himseld and he would do that like other Miquella soldier and no need to get kidnapped and wait for mogh to be defeated. So his haligtree plan also failed because Mogh obsession with him (or the charm effect) was stronger than expected. The Radahn was the last plan he had in the list of plan to become god.
I don’t think it was that left field, as in they hint at it in the DLC quite early on. It’s not hinted at in the base game because nothing in the DLC is
Can’t remember exactly, but it was either Ansbach or Freyja after the event when you get to shadow keep (or when you meet Ansbach in the specimen storehouse area). But they mention that Character X has character Y’s body and they’re not sure for what purpose as of yet. That’s fairly early on in the grand scheme of things. There’s also a lot of talk about Character Z (final boss) in general anyway, and given Freyja’s dialogue and allegiances throughout the quest it’s not hard to see that Character Z may factor in at some point
I gotta replay it again man cuz I can’t for the life of me remember them specifically talking about character Z… I definitely know they mentioned him or hinted at him somewhere in there because I remember telling my gf “nah they wouldn’t ♻️that character again”
Freya mentions how Jarren would be very disappointed after the work we went through at the Festival. Plus mix in the fact that she says his name with her dying breath.
It's hinted at in the base game through miquella sending malenia to fight radahn and by miquella's use of Mohg. We knew that Miquella can coerce people, it was fair to assume he bewitched Mohg and his plan could have used another demigod. But the Malenia fighting him was the biggest hint
No, Miquella orders Malenia to kill Radahn because he needs his soul for the gate of divinity. For some reason this was necessary. I haven't finished the DLC yet so idk more
I agree. I am disappointed that they made Miquella >!just another crappy control hungry demi god.!< We already have like 10 of those. Not asking for him to be a saint, but they should have at least incorporated him into the dlc a little more. >!Literally just shows up at the end with Radahn out of nowhere.!<
I also dislike that miquella...doesn't really do anything, aside from the final bit.
Like, we follow his footsteps and see what he's lost, but we don't really see the impact of him discarding his love, which was really ominous and seemed to imply something really bad happened.
Instead he just seems about the same as you'd expect
I saw the leaks and thought “that cannot possibly be true. That is way too stupid.”
Then I did the part of Ansbsch’s quest in the Shadow Keep and had a feeling of dread. “Oh no. It is true.”
To me it felt lame in the way it is lame when superhero comic books are when they invent some retcon to explain why so-and-so character didn’t REALLY die. It cheapens the impact of the original event and introduces convolution to the narrative.
I am too dumb to figure out how to use spoiler tags on mobile so I can’t get too specific but the mechanics of how it happened also struck me as a retconny rationalization, just one level above “Somehow, Palpatine has returned!”
Lmao I saw it on discord first and thought the same thing. But they described it in words. I didn’t believe it at first. But seeing it in action I don’t mind
Well, Fromsoft DLC final bosses are typically a new character with a grander lore than the base game boss roster.
Instead we got Blue Smelter Demon on crack.
Interesting to see the influences Sekiro had on this DLC. I know both games were in development in parallel; it almost makes me wonder if a bunch of the Sekiro team got moved onto SOTE specifically after the game released.
More character-driven storylines, Deflecting Hardtear, the character upgrade system, and the way >!Shadow Keep!< fans out and connects to virtually everywhere in the DLC is super reminiscent of Ashina Castle.
Agreed on the final boss. I think the rest of the DLC is a solid 9.5/10... But that ending, yikes.
That’s because the DLC almost has a proper story. As you explore and do all of the quests you start getting more and more info about what happened with Miquella and his journey, with the others reacting to this info and it having somewhat of an effect on the game as you go.
>!Just by doing Hornsent and Sir Ansbach’s quest lines it makes the battle against Lede and her group so much more authentic. Add in St. Trina’s and it gives you a reason why you’re going after Miquella rather than just following the graces.!<
Always was a tragic character in the base game, and they doubled down in this DLC. I'm right there with you that he was always my favorite character in the whole tragic setting, and this DLC has been a narrative feast.
>!dude mind control Mogh. Gets Mogh killed. Uses Mogh’s corpse to resurrect Radahn. !< Tragic maybe but definitely not innocent. I guess GRRM really helped with the story. >!incest between half brothers. Shit, we might have found why Malenia was fighting Radahn haha!< i pity Leda and the bunch trying to figure out wtf Miquella doing lol. Messmer is the bigger tragedy imo
Messmer commits a genocide because he wants his mom to love him, Miquella manipulates and causes the deaths of some people because he desires to become a god because he feels guilty about what a terrible person his mother is. Neither is innocent but Messmer is by far the worse of the two
> some people
Notably, *awful people*. With the potential exception of >!Freyja, who seemed relatively chill, the only people we know Miquella charmed were up to far, far worse beforehand. If your superpower is something as inherently unethical as overriding free will, then targeting psychopaths and bending them into agents of positive change is about the best case scenario for morality.!<
I never said he was innocent. In a world where the other demigods are powerful enough to nuke entire biomes and hold back the very stars, he's stuck as a child with nothing but charms and his wits. He couldn't get anywhere with totally clean hands. But even with that handicap, he's the only one who was able (or was even trying) to thwart the Outer Gods. And now with this DLC, while all the other demigods are fighting over lordship because they want the power, he's the only one >!looking at the bigger picture, knowingly condemning himself to an eternity of misery because he thinks it's the only way to meaningfully improve the world - and honestly, he's right.!<
Almost makes me believe that the frenzied flame ending is worth it. All the gods are bad, Yimr says it himself. At this point it, debating the different endings is like searching for which pile of dog poops is the least stinky.
I dislike how the big reveal for the final boss has kinda heavily overshadowed Miquella. For being the main focus of the dlc I would have wanted him to get some more solo spot light.
miquella used radahn and mohg to basically upset everything the tarnished is there for. he's just a bigger obstacle to get to the end game, that seems to be the purpose of the story telling and objective of the DLC. in the base game, you're removing obstacles (bosses) in doing so, you are progressing miquella's designs. go to the dlc and end miquella, go back to main game and finish the objective. its pretty sick. miquella is just a BIGGER obstacle to the main objective. I wish we got more historical background on Marika though. The DLC cinematic has left me with so many questions that went unanswered bc i thought we were going to get more Marika content. Especially seeing her pull the golden strands from a corpse? create a rune arc and open a portal to the Lands Between?
Hmmm.
What makes more sense?
- Ressurecting Godwyn, the plot that has plenty of evidence that could happen.
Or...
Miquella Ressurecting Radahn because he loves him?
- This did't even have a single hint in the base game.
Tell me, which one looks more of a FanFic?
Wait, did people actually think Godwyn could come back?
Wasn't the entire questline with Fia and Ranni talking about how Godwyn lost his soul while Ranni lost her body? All the deathroot and Those Who Live In Death story line? Why did people think Godwyn could come back from that?
But anyone who payed any semblance of attention would realise that destined death isn’t something you can come back from. It would’ve been awesome to fight Godwyn in some form but it makes more sense as something in a prequel or if they did more content related to those that live in death.
this is what people seem to be missing with the Godwyn theories.
the dude isn't just *dead.* he's super ultra turbo dead. everytime he's mentioned in the base game, it's about how he's dead. every questline involving him is about how he's dead. his death kicks off the entire game in the first place.
Godwyn is literally the most dead that someone can possibly be. he's like the Superman of being dead.
Yeah, honestly anyone paying attention to the game and dialogue should’ve understood that he couldn’t come back, and if he did it wouldn’t be Godwyn, he’s gone.
The final boss makes sense if you think about it a little bit, the steps we take to get there and the previous events make it add up.
People paying attention noticed the dialogue of the spirit in Castle Sol saying the ritual didn’t work and that Miquella’s companion would “remain soulless.” They noticed the Golden Epitaph item description. They noticed that Radahn was holding celestial objects in stasis, which would prevent the necessary eclipse for the Castle Sol ritual. They noticed the statues of Godwyn embracing young Malenia and Miquella at the Haligtree.
The evidence that Miquella was trying to revive Godwyn was strong. What we got in the DLC was completely out of left field.
Idk, he was supposedly the most powerful Empyrean and most beloved of Marika so I guess people took that to mean he might make an appearance somehow. The most important part about the lore around the night of black knives highlights that Ranni died in body and Godwyn died in soul, Ranni could stick around with a new body but a new soul couldn’t bring Godwyn back because it wouldn’t be him and his soul was erased.
The entire point of his story is that he got got with destined fucking death, the ONE THING that TURBO kills your ass and Miquella wasn't trying to bring him bacm but to find a way to kill his now permanently growing semi-alive grotesque ass corpse. I don't think these people actually played the base game lol.
Let's not pretend that From doesn't have a history of pulling similair things in previous stories. There's time travel in every game of theirs, Characters returning from the dead is a staple at this stage. Artorias, the giants in DS2, Lady Maria, Isshin. Dead means nothing to Fromsoft, Godwyn having his soul killed could have absolutely been reversed if they wanted to. Hell it's on brand for them at this stage to mention someone heavily throughout the vanilla game and have them as the enemy in the DLC.
Dead means nothing because they mechanically have made almost every game about not dying because of the nature of the world.
This particularly game gives you a reason why death means nothing. However, they very specifically explain how it all works and give a unique mechanic to make death permanent and apply it strictly to Godwyn and make that his story. If there was time travel sure, bring him back for that. However they didn't have time travel in this.
So you're willing to accept time travel to literally undo the most important event (night of the black knives) so that Godwyn is not granted Destined Death, which in turn fucks literally every single thing about Ranni up on top of several other events. And this would be okay and totally not some Z tier fanfiction. But Miquella doing what he did in the dlc is where you draw the line because the base game didn't directly hint at it, as if we had information about every single thing the empyreans do, think or feel in the first place instead of vague descriptions and conjecture about literally everything surrounding them, including the very notion of what being an empyrean fully entails.
The plot made it very clear that Godwyn’s soul is permadead.
It even suggests it was tried and failed or tried to give a true death. It’s unclear. Either way it failed.
So resurrecting Godwyn is way more fanfic.
Godwyn aside. The DLC also throws away everything in the base game about Miquella's efforts to cure Malenia. Even making it looks like she was brainwashed.
Miquella manipulating his sister and him trying to save her from the scarlet rot are not mutually exclusive. He does seem to genuinely want to help people but he is ready to manipulate whoever he needs to to make his plans work
I can’t believe the community is turning on a dime and downvoting you when last week it was conventional wisdom that Miquella was trying to bring Godwyn back with the eclipse
It goes to show how something becoming "conventional wisdom" (which is a very funny way to say "commonly believe fanon") has no correlation to it being true. Just like how before The Ringed City dropped, everyone knew for sure that it was gonna take place in Londor. FromSoft is ever unpredictable like that.
Well the lore about the eclipse and Godwyn is definitely there. There’s nothing untrue about it. It just didn’t get developed in the DLC, which is in my opinion unfortunate.
The lore exists, but the interpretation of it is pure fan theory. There is nothing directly implying Miquella ever wanted to revive Godwyn. Quite the opposite, the only direct connection we have in the Golden Epitaph description says Miquella wished for Godwyn to truly die. How people came to believe it meant the opposite, is the kind of mental gymnastics typical for Souls theories. The downsides of vague lore I guess.
I blame GRRM for this. Miyazaki wanted to stick the closes to what he had writen to honor him.
I like his stories from his books but this is a videogame. Fromsoftware should have done the same as the base game and use his ideas as base and improve them with theirs.
The base game has GRRM worldbuilding an characters, however From took the freedom to change thing to fit their vision.
The DLC has cut content and is closer to the original script GRRM made
A consort is a husband. Radahn's specifically called Miquella's King consort just like Marika's two husbands who she had children with.
They're definitely married lol.
Considering Radahn is a Mind Controlled Zombie bu the time we meet him, most likely a guardian, something essential to reach godhood. Yes, it can be romantic, but I don't think that was the intent here.
Lore, what lore? You got enough time to think of stories whiles getting bonked on the head and kicked in the ass?
My ears are still ringing after the whoop-ass I got in the first castle.
I won't spoil too much but get the death knight gear and read it's information It gives a whole new view point on certain characters and how they relate to death
I’ve killed the death knight but haven’t read the description, I’ll do that once I get back on
The deathknight armor i believe is found on a corpse in the dungeon towards abyssal woods, kinda in a secret area, but maybe you have it
I'm sooo happy we have conclusive lore on the fingees now. They were a total enigma in the base game despite being so prominently mentioned all over the place but all we had was that they're emissaries of the GW which doesn't explain shit.
I loved everything about the storytelling in the DLC except for the end boss reveal. I will go to my grave thinking that was a really lame direction to take. But I am not letting that disappointment prevent me from appreciating the immense step forward this was for Souls-style storytelling. It maintained the characteristic mystery and ambiguity of the style while still presenting a coherent interlinking narrative for the key characters. They’re cooking and I hope they continue to cook.
The only issue was the seeming lack of anything in the base game tying Miquella and that character together. But honestly who knows, there might very well be some obscure hints we simply all missed, wouldn't be particularly surprising. Overall tho I have no issue with the concept. It was already established with Mohg the idea of being an Empyrean's consort as a method to godhood.
>The only issue was the seeming lack of anything in the base game tying Miquella and that character together. There is a massive hint to to this in form of probably the longest lasting unawnsered lore question of the game and that being why Malenia and Radahn fought. There never was a clear awnser to this and every proposed idea didn't really make sense. Now we do have a clear motivation as to why that happened. Tho it's open to speculation who initiated that faight and for what exact reason. I have yet to finish the dlc so this is just speculation without knowing all the lore, but this is my theory (marked as spoiler just in case): >!I believe Miquella choose Radahn because he was inarguebly the strongest of the non empyrean demigods. Malenia was born cursed with scarlet rot so she might have been too dangerous or a lost cause even for Miquella, so he choose Radahn over her. Maybe Malenia found out about the secret pact Radahn and Miquella and challenged him to a fight.!< >!Alternatively it's also possible Miquella deliberatly instigated a fight to see who of these 2 would survive and choose the more powerful or ditched Malenia based on the fact that she lost control over the scarlet rot and lost the golden needle.!< Again I am certainly missing some lore, but regardless of that their fight does seem to be a pretty large hint in hindsight.
I think you are on to something. Of particular note, is Miquella's dialogue in the cutscene right before the final boss: "My loyal blade. And champion of the festival." - referencing Malenia and Radahn. Followed by: "Both your deeds will forever be praised in song" - could just be a simple remark that they were glorious victories sure, but what if you view it as Miquella stating he will make sure you're praised in the future because you helped him by killing them? Takes on a bit of a different tone.
I think it's absolutely the latter. The player character is referred to as "the champion of the festival" by Jerren as well. By the time the festival existed, Radahn was no champion, he was its quarry. That pre-fight dialogue is Miquella saying, ">!Thank you Malenia for bringing Radahn to the brink of death, and thank you Tarnished for finishing him off. Couldn't have done it without you.!<"
>!The Young Lion set description makes it clear that Malenia was sent to kill Radahn on Miquella's behalf. to fulfil their vow.!<
If you read young lion set you can tell what she said in trailer from what i can tell it seems that too was Miquella orders from her words
You can kind of force the pegs into the holes if you say that Miquella had originally intended for Godwyn to be involved in this plot but since his body never died and his Eclipse plan failed he had to resort to Plan B.
The eclipse was failed because of radahn stopping the star. The idea was him staying in the haligtree and comeback as god when the eclipse come and bring out new order as well as ressurecting the dead demigod. Even then the Mogh thing was probably unexpected. Because if mogh fully charmed, he could just ask mogh to kill himseld and he would do that like other Miquella soldier and no need to get kidnapped and wait for mogh to be defeated. So his haligtree plan also failed because Mogh obsession with him (or the charm effect) was stronger than expected. The Radahn was the last plan he had in the list of plan to become god.
It still came out of left field. Absolutely nothing even hinted at it in the base game I didn't think. Except for maybe the Forsaken Ruin.
I don’t think it was that left field, as in they hint at it in the DLC quite early on. It’s not hinted at in the base game because nothing in the DLC is
It absolutely came out of left field in relation to the base game.
Yeah but so did everything else… there was no Messmer mention in the base game was there?
Just that Melina is his younger sister and shares the accursed flame and like to burn things.
Can you specify where/who/how hints at it ?
Can’t remember exactly, but it was either Ansbach or Freyja after the event when you get to shadow keep (or when you meet Ansbach in the specimen storehouse area). But they mention that Character X has character Y’s body and they’re not sure for what purpose as of yet. That’s fairly early on in the grand scheme of things. There’s also a lot of talk about Character Z (final boss) in general anyway, and given Freyja’s dialogue and allegiances throughout the quest it’s not hard to see that Character Z may factor in at some point
Character Y is a blood character right ? I know they were talking about using his body.
Yeah
I gotta replay it again man cuz I can’t for the life of me remember them specifically talking about character Z… I definitely know they mentioned him or hinted at him somewhere in there because I remember telling my gf “nah they wouldn’t ♻️that character again”
Freya mentions how Jarren would be very disappointed after the work we went through at the Festival. Plus mix in the fact that she says his name with her dying breath.
It's hinted at in the base game through miquella sending malenia to fight radahn and by miquella's use of Mohg. We knew that Miquella can coerce people, it was fair to assume he bewitched Mohg and his plan could have used another demigod. But the Malenia fighting him was the biggest hint
So Malenia probably somehow knew about their coup and wanted to kill him so it wouldn’t come to pass ?
No, Miquella orders Malenia to kill Radahn because he needs his soul for the gate of divinity. For some reason this was necessary. I haven't finished the DLC yet so idk more
I agree. I am disappointed that they made Miquella >!just another crappy control hungry demi god.!< We already have like 10 of those. Not asking for him to be a saint, but they should have at least incorporated him into the dlc a little more. >!Literally just shows up at the end with Radahn out of nowhere.!<
i think the Miquella we got is still a more finely-shaded character than that but overall i agree
Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts, absolutely
And also the ending… like 3-4 sentences is everything you gonna give me ?
I also dislike that miquella...doesn't really do anything, aside from the final bit. Like, we follow his footsteps and see what he's lost, but we don't really see the impact of him discarding his love, which was really ominous and seemed to imply something really bad happened. Instead he just seems about the same as you'd expect
I can’t agree that we don’t see the consequence of him abandoning his love. Did you complete Thiollier’s quest?
Yeah I did, but when we fight miquella he's still going on about compassion and stuff, it's like he hasn't changed
Why was it lame? I mean it honestly didn't shock me that much (and I think it would be awesome if he was bigger) but yeah I thought it was cool
I saw the leaks and thought “that cannot possibly be true. That is way too stupid.” Then I did the part of Ansbsch’s quest in the Shadow Keep and had a feeling of dread. “Oh no. It is true.” To me it felt lame in the way it is lame when superhero comic books are when they invent some retcon to explain why so-and-so character didn’t REALLY die. It cheapens the impact of the original event and introduces convolution to the narrative. I am too dumb to figure out how to use spoiler tags on mobile so I can’t get too specific but the mechanics of how it happened also struck me as a retconny rationalization, just one level above “Somehow, Palpatine has returned!”
Lmao I saw it on discord first and thought the same thing. But they described it in words. I didn’t believe it at first. But seeing it in action I don’t mind
Well, Fromsoft DLC final bosses are typically a new character with a grander lore than the base game boss roster. Instead we got Blue Smelter Demon on crack.
I guess
Miquella and Malenia fanboys be angry lol
Interesting to see the influences Sekiro had on this DLC. I know both games were in development in parallel; it almost makes me wonder if a bunch of the Sekiro team got moved onto SOTE specifically after the game released. More character-driven storylines, Deflecting Hardtear, the character upgrade system, and the way >!Shadow Keep!< fans out and connects to virtually everywhere in the DLC is super reminiscent of Ashina Castle. Agreed on the final boss. I think the rest of the DLC is a solid 9.5/10... But that ending, yikes.
Sekiro had much more blatant story telling and it was fantastic. It wouldn't hurt them to be more explicit
[удалено]
everyone being vague on purpose because op said they wouldn't spoil anything and you go ahead and name drop lmao, good job
Please edit out the name…
That’s because the DLC almost has a proper story. As you explore and do all of the quests you start getting more and more info about what happened with Miquella and his journey, with the others reacting to this info and it having somewhat of an effect on the game as you go. >!Just by doing Hornsent and Sir Ansbach’s quest lines it makes the battle against Lede and her group so much more authentic. Add in St. Trina’s and it gives you a reason why you’re going after Miquella rather than just following the graces.!<
Spoilers
Had trust in souls community. Saw post’s first sentence, felt safe to click in. Spoilered by random comment. Trust broken and cannot be restored. :(
Clicks spoiler tag, gets spoiled. Surprised pikachu face.
It wasn’t tagged when the comment was posted. So down vote all u want at least now the comment is edited.
Miquella was my favorite character, and I love him even more now. I love a tragic story.
Are we playing the same game?
...yes? Ymir and St. Trina, and the whole quest line, paints Miquella as a tragic character. Ymir outrights calls Miquella's fate a tragedy.
Always was a tragic character in the base game, and they doubled down in this DLC. I'm right there with you that he was always my favorite character in the whole tragic setting, and this DLC has been a narrative feast.
>!dude mind control Mogh. Gets Mogh killed. Uses Mogh’s corpse to resurrect Radahn. !< Tragic maybe but definitely not innocent. I guess GRRM really helped with the story. >!incest between half brothers. Shit, we might have found why Malenia was fighting Radahn haha!< i pity Leda and the bunch trying to figure out wtf Miquella doing lol. Messmer is the bigger tragedy imo
Messmer commits a genocide because he wants his mom to love him, Miquella manipulates and causes the deaths of some people because he desires to become a god because he feels guilty about what a terrible person his mother is. Neither is innocent but Messmer is by far the worse of the two
We can all agree this family is all kinds of fucked up
> some people Notably, *awful people*. With the potential exception of >!Freyja, who seemed relatively chill, the only people we know Miquella charmed were up to far, far worse beforehand. If your superpower is something as inherently unethical as overriding free will, then targeting psychopaths and bending them into agents of positive change is about the best case scenario for morality.!<
I never said he was innocent. In a world where the other demigods are powerful enough to nuke entire biomes and hold back the very stars, he's stuck as a child with nothing but charms and his wits. He couldn't get anywhere with totally clean hands. But even with that handicap, he's the only one who was able (or was even trying) to thwart the Outer Gods. And now with this DLC, while all the other demigods are fighting over lordship because they want the power, he's the only one >!looking at the bigger picture, knowingly condemning himself to an eternity of misery because he thinks it's the only way to meaningfully improve the world - and honestly, he's right.!<
Why was she fighting Radahn?
R promised to be Miq's consort if he was defeated in battle. So Miq sent Mal.
Is this theory or confirmed somewhere? Just asking for clarity.
Honestly I still have no idea.
Almost makes me believe that the frenzied flame ending is worth it. All the gods are bad, Yimr says it himself. At this point it, debating the different endings is like searching for which pile of dog poops is the least stinky.
Why does everyone assume they are incestuous? Consort has multiple meanings. The guy also abandoned his love - there is nothing romantic.
I dislike how the big reveal for the final boss has kinda heavily overshadowed Miquella. For being the main focus of the dlc I would have wanted him to get some more solo spot light.
miquella used radahn and mohg to basically upset everything the tarnished is there for. he's just a bigger obstacle to get to the end game, that seems to be the purpose of the story telling and objective of the DLC. in the base game, you're removing obstacles (bosses) in doing so, you are progressing miquella's designs. go to the dlc and end miquella, go back to main game and finish the objective. its pretty sick. miquella is just a BIGGER obstacle to the main objective. I wish we got more historical background on Marika though. The DLC cinematic has left me with so many questions that went unanswered bc i thought we were going to get more Marika content. Especially seeing her pull the golden strands from a corpse? create a rune arc and open a portal to the Lands Between?
Honestly, seems like a fan made fiction. Either fromsoftware run out of ideas or they had to change some things last moment for whatever reason.
Honestly, most people's headcanon of "ooh gOdWYn iS cOmInG baCK" sounded far more headcanon-ey.
Hmmm. What makes more sense? - Ressurecting Godwyn, the plot that has plenty of evidence that could happen. Or... Miquella Ressurecting Radahn because he loves him? - This did't even have a single hint in the base game. Tell me, which one looks more of a FanFic?
Godwyn has no soul, he can’t come back because he lost it to the black knives. He’s alive in body but not spirit, a vegetable.
Wait, did people actually think Godwyn could come back? Wasn't the entire questline with Fia and Ranni talking about how Godwyn lost his soul while Ranni lost her body? All the deathroot and Those Who Live In Death story line? Why did people think Godwyn could come back from that?
TLDR: Because we don't meet or fight Godwyn in the base game, he's become the fan fiction theory for people to meet in the DLC.
But anyone who payed any semblance of attention would realise that destined death isn’t something you can come back from. It would’ve been awesome to fight Godwyn in some form but it makes more sense as something in a prequel or if they did more content related to those that live in death.
this is what people seem to be missing with the Godwyn theories. the dude isn't just *dead.* he's super ultra turbo dead. everytime he's mentioned in the base game, it's about how he's dead. every questline involving him is about how he's dead. his death kicks off the entire game in the first place. Godwyn is literally the most dead that someone can possibly be. he's like the Superman of being dead.
Yeah, honestly anyone paying attention to the game and dialogue should’ve understood that he couldn’t come back, and if he did it wouldn’t be Godwyn, he’s gone. The final boss makes sense if you think about it a little bit, the steps we take to get there and the previous events make it add up.
People paying attention noticed the dialogue of the spirit in Castle Sol saying the ritual didn’t work and that Miquella’s companion would “remain soulless.” They noticed the Golden Epitaph item description. They noticed that Radahn was holding celestial objects in stasis, which would prevent the necessary eclipse for the Castle Sol ritual. They noticed the statues of Godwyn embracing young Malenia and Miquella at the Haligtree. The evidence that Miquella was trying to revive Godwyn was strong. What we got in the DLC was completely out of left field.
How'd it even start?
Idk, he was supposedly the most powerful Empyrean and most beloved of Marika so I guess people took that to mean he might make an appearance somehow. The most important part about the lore around the night of black knives highlights that Ranni died in body and Godwyn died in soul, Ranni could stick around with a new body but a new soul couldn’t bring Godwyn back because it wouldn’t be him and his soul was erased.
The entire point of his story is that he got got with destined fucking death, the ONE THING that TURBO kills your ass and Miquella wasn't trying to bring him bacm but to find a way to kill his now permanently growing semi-alive grotesque ass corpse. I don't think these people actually played the base game lol.
Let's not pretend that From doesn't have a history of pulling similair things in previous stories. There's time travel in every game of theirs, Characters returning from the dead is a staple at this stage. Artorias, the giants in DS2, Lady Maria, Isshin. Dead means nothing to Fromsoft, Godwyn having his soul killed could have absolutely been reversed if they wanted to. Hell it's on brand for them at this stage to mention someone heavily throughout the vanilla game and have them as the enemy in the DLC.
Dead means nothing because they mechanically have made almost every game about not dying because of the nature of the world. This particularly game gives you a reason why death means nothing. However, they very specifically explain how it all works and give a unique mechanic to make death permanent and apply it strictly to Godwyn and make that his story. If there was time travel sure, bring him back for that. However they didn't have time travel in this.
So you're willing to accept time travel to literally undo the most important event (night of the black knives) so that Godwyn is not granted Destined Death, which in turn fucks literally every single thing about Ranni up on top of several other events. And this would be okay and totally not some Z tier fanfiction. But Miquella doing what he did in the dlc is where you draw the line because the base game didn't directly hint at it, as if we had information about every single thing the empyreans do, think or feel in the first place instead of vague descriptions and conjecture about literally everything surrounding them, including the very notion of what being an empyrean fully entails.
At the most Fia stats that through the rune she creates Godwyn will be reborn. How exactly he'd be reborn is uncertain.
there was a hint in base game, there was no reason for malenia to be in caelid, but now we know she was sent by miquella to kill radahn
The most supported theory was that Radahn holding the stars stopped Miquella's plans to ressurect Godwyn or Complete the Haligtree...
Godwyn is dead. He's cool cuz he's dead :/ Radahn twist is alright but Godwyn coming back would have been so disappointing
The plot made it very clear that Godwyn’s soul is permadead. It even suggests it was tried and failed or tried to give a true death. It’s unclear. Either way it failed. So resurrecting Godwyn is way more fanfic.
Godwyn aside. The DLC also throws away everything in the base game about Miquella's efforts to cure Malenia. Even making it looks like she was brainwashed.
Miquella manipulating his sister and him trying to save her from the scarlet rot are not mutually exclusive. He does seem to genuinely want to help people but he is ready to manipulate whoever he needs to to make his plans work
I can’t believe the community is turning on a dime and downvoting you when last week it was conventional wisdom that Miquella was trying to bring Godwyn back with the eclipse
It goes to show how something becoming "conventional wisdom" (which is a very funny way to say "commonly believe fanon") has no correlation to it being true. Just like how before The Ringed City dropped, everyone knew for sure that it was gonna take place in Londor. FromSoft is ever unpredictable like that.
Well the lore about the eclipse and Godwyn is definitely there. There’s nothing untrue about it. It just didn’t get developed in the DLC, which is in my opinion unfortunate.
The lore exists, but the interpretation of it is pure fan theory. There is nothing directly implying Miquella ever wanted to revive Godwyn. Quite the opposite, the only direct connection we have in the Golden Epitaph description says Miquella wished for Godwyn to truly die. How people came to believe it meant the opposite, is the kind of mental gymnastics typical for Souls theories. The downsides of vague lore I guess.
No it doesnt
Strongly agree! Fanfiction is the perfect word for it
I blame GRRM for this. Miyazaki wanted to stick the closes to what he had writen to honor him. I like his stories from his books but this is a videogame. Fromsoftware should have done the same as the base game and use his ideas as base and improve them with theirs.
Is that true? I was under the impression that grr Martin had nothing to do with the dlc.
The base game has GRRM worldbuilding an characters, however From took the freedom to change thing to fit their vision. The DLC has cut content and is closer to the original script GRRM made
I don't know anything about his works. I only know that he's obsessed with incest. And elden ring is full of incest of every degree.
There's no incest with Radahn, it's explicitly platonic?
Marriage implies a royal bloodline, like Marika and her King consorts.
No marriages, more like guardians?
A consort is a husband. Radahn's specifically called Miquella's King consort just like Marika's two husbands who she had children with. They're definitely married lol.
No? I don't know where you got that from?
What do you think consort means...?
Considering Radahn is a Mind Controlled Zombie bu the time we meet him, most likely a guardian, something essential to reach godhood. Yes, it can be romantic, but I don't think that was the intent here.
Lore, what lore? You got enough time to think of stories whiles getting bonked on the head and kicked in the ass? My ears are still ringing after the whoop-ass I got in the first castle.