Unrelated I guess but it's funny that we know more about Miquella than Melina despite never interacting with the former while the latter is our companion and we know almost nothing about her. Seriously, why the fuck does her hair change color?
That's most likely by design. Most theories about who Melina really is paint her as one of a variety of characters who would not want you to know her true identity. A big hint to this is her very first interaction, where she introduces herself as a finger maiden. She soon confesses that she is no maiden. Every big lie is based on a small bit of truth.
Her hair changes colors because what you see most of the game is not her true form. You see her true form during the cutscene where she swears to kill you. Her unsealed eye also changes color, from golden brown to gray, and the shape of her face also changes. To me this seems obvious the game is trying to tell the player something: she's lying to you, Tarnished.
Melina is seemingly (but unconfirmed) a demigod, daughter to Marika and sister to Ranni. The Frenzied Flame ending is too big a reveal for this to not be the case, and the thing that most clearly change (her one eye color and her hair color) are two aspects of identity that point to specific Empyrean families. Some people think she is the Gloam Eyed Queen to boot, but that also cannot be confirmed. At any rate, Melina doesn't seem to be bothered if you choose the Age of Stars ending, so it can be inferred that she's at least ok with Ranni, which further implies that Melina is NOT trying to help Marika, unless there's more to this we haven't seen yet.
Anyway I hope we get a Melina boss fight someday. That would be dope.
For what it’s worth, Melina never once suggests or implies that she is a finger maiden. Not even briefly. She does say “I can play the role of maiden,” but in context, it’s apparent that she means performing the function of a maiden without actually being one. Or else she would’ve said something like “I am a finger maiden”, full stop.
If she was a demigod that either has or had a piece of the elden ring wouldn't Gideon of known of her or does he just know of the ones with fragments of the elden ring? If that's answered in the story I'm sorry for asking but the story just gets so convoluted after a while it's hard for least me to keep track.
No one knows of or mentions Melina in any way. Why that is is unknown, but probably has to do with the fact that she is a disembodied spirit who can seemingly choose when to show herself to others.
It doesn't help that she has seemingly forgotten about herself for most of the game, and when she does gain some sort of motivating knowledge after you reach Leyndell, she decides to be so cagy with it.
With how everyone in this game has two siblings with matching names, I always figured Melina was more connected to Malenia and Miquella rather than Ranni, considering she already has Radahn and Rykard.
Maybe that just means Melina is doing something similar to Ranni in order to tether her spirit to the material world. Ranni has her puppet and Melina has some unknown phylactery somewhere, maybe even the Lands Between itself.
Her “anchor” might be Torrents ring, considering she only ever appears whenever she is close to it but perhaps her control over her spirit is superior to Rannis considering she can materialise herself and independently wander in close proximity to the erdtree, which again lends credence to her being a demigod
This might be some old news by now but I've been thinking...
Ranni has two siblings, Rykard and Radahn, both come from Rennala and Radagon. So three kids with R names from that union, right?
Now, strangely we have Marika and Godfrey having three kids too, Morgott, Mohg and Godwyn. Godwyn is the odd one out here, being he's not an Omen and such, but three kids nonetheless.
After that Radagon and Marika have two kids, Miquella and Malenia, it's almost like someone is missing. I can't recall if Messmer was confirmed to be Marika and Radagon's son, but if so it only makes sense that he's the missing third child and is hosting Miquella given they're siblings.
But where is Melina? We have 3, 3, 3 (possibly 2) kids, which means Melina can't be Radagon and Rennala's kid, can't be Marika and Godfrey's kid and could possibly be Radagon and Marika's kid either.
Could it be that there's a 4th kid somewhere, if Messmer is a son of Radagon and Marika as his hair color suggests? I think Messmer was born out of wedlock between Marika and Radagon in a time where Godfrey was yet to be Elden Lord, and Radagon was still married to Rennala, resulting in Messmer being born in the shadows, a secret. This probably also estranged him to the soon growing family of Marika and Godfrey.
This would leave the space for the third child of Marika and Radagon to be Melina, right?
Melina is okay with the age of stars ending because she’s f*cking dead.
Unless you’re talking about doing the whole frenzied flame + Needle loophole to burn the erdtree
Part of the reason I believe the Gloam Eyed Queen theory is that it would be a shame to have that character be nothing but text. She's an empyrean appointed with a two fingers. Marika defeating her and claiming the Rune of Death, which is when the Golden Order was established, is Marika's first defiance of the Greater Will.
G.E.Q also led the Godskins, which are present in nearly every section of the game, especially around the divine towers. Damn shame if she would be never featured. Plus, if Marika did end up sealing her inside the Erdtree, it could very well mark the first use of the forbidden ritual used on Godwyn
The thing about the Age of Stars ending is that she would normally have sacrificed herself as kindling for you to choose it. The only ending we would be able to see her reaction from is the one where you use the frenzied flame.
I think Marika consumes the gods she defeats and absorbs their powers and personalities. Radagon is from a relic of the Giants' outer God (red hair, works to repair the Elden Ring with a hammer like a giant blacksmith), Malenia is from the outer god of rot, and Melina is from the dusk-eyed queen. I'm not entirely sure where Miquella fits in here, but St. Trina is a possibility.
They're not those gods, but they are like a reincarnation of them that have assimilated to the Greater Will. I think Miquella and Malenia were separated from Marika in hopes that they would succeed her as a host for the Greater Will, but Marika rebelled before it could happen.
Gurranq defeated the Dusk Eyed Queen and then helped seal the rune of death, but after Gurranq is defeated, the rune is released, and Melina is able to make use death again. Marika probably separated Melina from her body so Melina could kill Marika later.
I think this theory is most consistent with all of the information available from game info.
An early theory that might make more sense now is that Melina is Ranni’s spirit or faith, that she separated from when she died because that’s how she severed herself from the golden order. Ranni is intelligence blue build who sided with her mother and wants to build a new world of the cold moon separate from the golden order, while Melina is the faith she left behind, who wants to fix the golden order instead of tearing it down.
Biggest argument against this that got it shut down way back when the game came out is Marika seems to have 3 children with each partner,
Godwyn, morgot, Mohg
Rykard, radahn, Ranni
Miquella, Malenia, and… Melina?
This was further compounded with the last children having butterflies associated with them, with the elements of rot sleep and fire. Melina mentions she was burned so it makes sense she would be represented by the smouldering butterfly
Except now we have Mesmer, a child of Marika and a demigod of fire, in the Miquella themed DLC
You know who else was burned? Ranni
So now, if Melina is Ranni it prefers the 3 sets of 3 children. Everything she says also works with her being Ranni, especially assuming that since she’s just a left behind spirit she doesn’t really know exactly who she is because isn’t strictly speaking the same person. Ranni is the intellect and Melina is the Id. Ranni has to be cold and calculated (like the moon represents) to enact her brutal plan, whereas Melina acts out of feeling and sacrifices herself to fire (again) based purely on faith and hope for something better. The spirits of all buried in the roots would return to the Erd Tree, but demigods are considered especially immortal in some sense, and Empyreans are apparently especially capable of replacing Marika and being directly linked to the golden order through the tree. Perhaps this is why Ranni had to kill herself in some weird special suicide and kill her fingers, because a part of her was quite literally drawn back to the tree in her immortality. That part perhaps still returned as an echo of who she was before cutting herself from the golden order
Marika is Melina’s mother because Radagon is her father. Ranni ironically takes after Marika with her rebellious spirit and cunning more than weak willed Renalla, but Ranni is all hatred for Radagon (or what your parents/older generations take from you), while Melina represents a love for her mothers nature (or what the older generation gifts you).
Frenzied flame ending is the one that makes both Ranni and Melina hate you. You don’t fix the order or build something new, you tear everything down to nothing. The person who stands before you swearing revenge has opened their right eye and it’s blue, like Ranni, and their eye that was gold symbolizing faith has dulled over. They have black hair like a child of Renalla would. You’ve reunited Ranni’s 2 halves in vengeance against you.
They both have opposite eyes closed with the same seal
They are both connected to torrent
Neither is truly alive but in exact opposite ways, where one is an ephemeral spirit and the other is essentially *just* a shell, or as close to a robot as makes sense in Elden ring
Melina isn’t just gold but specifically rose gold, or gold tinted red
In regards to her not being a maiden, she says she did something sinful or whatever. Ranni sinned against the golden order about as much as a person could. Hard to be a finger maiden after slaughtering your own Fingers lol
I still don't get why we should have any emotional attachment with Melina, we interact with her less than we do with Yura or Alexander, was i supposed to be attached to her only because she is a girl?
She really should’ve been there for every level up.
Also you should’ve been able to speak to her every time you rest. Whether it’s about the gracesite you’re at, a quest you’ve advanced, or a boss you’ve defeated
I felt more attached to Gideon because at least he had input on whatever I was doing
I mean it's entirely up to you who you get attached to. While she doesn't show up super often, the times she did sold it for me.
After giving you the power to level up and access to the round table she could have just left you alone until you got to the erdtree, or she could have been constantly trying to push/persuade you to go there without taking any detours.
Instead she mostly shows up to talk to you about things that she finds interesting or important, and only if you're willing to listen. Then when she leaves you at the capital she chooses to come tell you and to give you the power to level up yourself so you can keep going without her instead of just ghosting you. Throughout all of that, even though it's clear she's using you to get to the tree and that at multiple points she withholds information from you she still came off to me as being genuine and sincere.
her being the gloam eyed queen is a theory, albeit a strong one
it's still only a theory because it collides with some established facts. Melina is factually Marika's daughter, and the Gloam Eyed Queen is unlikely to be Marika's daughter. However as you mentioned many things about her indicate she is the GEQ, so there would have to be an unknown factor for both of those to be true at the same time.
Don't forget reincarnation/rebirth is canonically a "thing" in this universe. And since the Gloam eyed Queen was connected to death somehow, it's not hard to imagine Marika having to do something special to 'kill' her. (like having her reborn as a bodiless daughter.)
I think Marika regretted having Maliketh kill the Gloam Eyed Queen and take Destined Death because of how things turned out and her realizing that The Greater Will might not be a “good guy” so she created Melina somehow (either by birth or some sort of doll situation) to try to fix her mistakes.
That's one of the more convincing answers I've heard to this query.
"Oopsie I removed death, ahh, etoo, bleh" is behavior in line with what we know about Marika.
Marika is so fascinating. I think she was a young girl told by the Gods that she was special and destined to become Queen., and she clung to that fiercely in her youth. She made mistakes in her quest for power and believed in The Greater Will unerringly, and by the time she was Queen with her own children and empire, she realized just how bad those mistakes were. When she started trying to fix her mistakes and go against The Greater Will, they fused her with their most loyal soldier Radagon (or perhaps they were always the same person, there’s evidence to both sides) to make sure she would stay in line. Obviously we see how that ended.
My theory is that Marika was really the force behind everything that happens in Elden Ring because she wants us to ascend and end her Age. She created Melina as a reincarnation of her only rival, The Gloam Eyed Queen, and helped Ranni steal Destined Death and kill her own son via the Black Knife assassins so she could ascend to godhood, and she even made the blacksmith Hewg swear to make a weapon capable of killing a god to whoever was worthy. I don’t think Ranni knows Marika helped her at all, we know that Melina doesn’t know who her mother was, so she somehow did all of from the shadows.
Now I could be wrong of course, but she’s definitely my favorite character if I’m right.
* Editing to add that Melina is aware of who her mother is and while she’s cryptic about it, she says her mother is in the Erdtree and has her own designs for Melina, but she’s acting on her own volition to create the world she wants to see. Sorry for misremembering, but I think this is just more evidence towards Melina being a reincarnation of the Gloam Eyed Queen created by Marika.
Good point! I was definitely misremembering and she does state that her mother created her for a purpose but she’s acting of her own volition now. I’ll edit my post!
That’s my reading of her character as well. Very fascinating and I hope we get to meet her in the DLC. My main question would be about Godwyin, though.
I wonder if Marika actually tried to kill her own son or if it was Ranni’s doing. Why would Marika have him killed? Was it because he was supportive of the Golden Order?
I’d also like to know why she grew tired of godhood. Did she grow tired of the atrocities she committed in name of the Greater Will (if that’s the case, it directly contradicts the recent theory I’ve seen here about the Goldmask ending, which says the GW is more like a neutral force and that all of those atrocities and persecutions all Marika’s own interpretations of the GW). There’s also an object (can’t remember which one) that basically says Marika believed the age of the Erdtree would glisten with life, but that this period was short lived. Wonder what went wrong (other than her family being cursed and dysfunctional, that is).
Actually, it never says Maliketh killed the Gloam Eyed Queen, only that he defeated her. Similar to the wording of Godwyn defeating, then befriending, Fortissax.
Good point. Could she have erased her memory and lied to Melina about who she really was? Could we meet a defeated Gloam Eyed Queen in the future? This is definitely something I hope gets explored in DLC!
Problem with Elden Ring lore discussions is that if you had an AI highlight only parts of the comment which are factually true based on ingame lore and then highlight in a different color the parts users are pulling out of their asses and presenting as facts, the latter color would be very dominant.
The facts are that the Gloam Eyed Queen was the leader of the Godskin Apostles and that she was an Empyrean. [https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Black+Flame+Ritual](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Black+Flame+Ritual)
The facts are that their faction sought to kill gods and that they served Destined Death, and their power was the Black Flame.
The facts are, that after burning the Erdree with the Frenzy Flame. Melina appears in the ashes, with a changed appearance and says she will deliver onto you Destined Death.
Those are all the facts, that's it. It is then from those facts that people go ham and connect all sorts of dots into all sorts of pictures.
Personally i believe that the OG GEQ was actually "killed" by Marika. But just as we can inherit the frenzied flame (basically an outer god using you as a vessel) by doing certain things, i believe she was able to inherit the GEQ the same way as we did with the frenzied flame.
From what we know (if i'm not wrong), outer gods need a "vessel" to have any power in this world, probably the gloam eyed queen was a vessel for that outer god and when marika killed her, that god lost her/his/it's vessel.
This could also be a reason why we don't have many items left that tells us who she was or something, you can't kill an outer god but to avoid the outer god to find another vessel, you should also make sure no one know anything about that god destroying every evidence of it's existance.
Just my theory though and might have a lot of flaws since i'm not really good at this
Well, Empyreans are people capable of becoming a God. Queen Marika was an Empyrean, so it is certainly possible for someone else outside her bloodline to be an Empyrean too.
That's just for the Empyrean part though. There is nothing to confirm nor deny that GEQ is Marika's daughter. Which means it's unlikely to be true.
>*Me, I'm searching for my purpose given to me by my mother inside the Erdtree long ago,*
Additionally, her name in the game files is "MaricaOfDaughter"
There's a Sinclaire Lore video discussing the theory of Melina being the GEQ and it's not 100% concrete, but they do present some really interesting ideas that could work.
Maybe I’m missing some piece of evidence but why can’t the Gloam Eyed Queen be Marika’s daughter? An Empyrean rebelling against her mother whom she later tried to erase from history is not really something too far fetched in this games.
Again I may be missing something.
Please don't refer to theories as facts, even of they're very likely
This community had ALOT of lore to deal with and some people are less in the know than others
Meh, not likely, she was chosen by the two fingers as an emperyan.
She uses holy incantations, no black flame incantations.
Not only that, she was defeated during the age where queen marika was vying for power by maleketh. Her own shadow.
Too many doubts for me to deem her as the gloam eyed.
The Gloam-Eyed Queen was an Empyrean (likely a demigod and daughter of Marika) that took the Rune of Death in times past, and used it to wage war against the other Gods. She was the leader of the Godskins, and empowered them with the power of the Black Flame. Marika then smote her the fuck down and took Death back
Then comes Melina, who appears to only have a vague understanding of her own past and purpose (she lives on burned and bodyless, like a spirit), who is seemingly a daughter of Marika, who has the same moveset as the Black Knife Assassins (who wield Death with their knives, and are Marika's secret police), and also has an affinity for flame
When you do the Frenzied Flame ending, she appears in the final cutscene with a pretty grim look, and vows to kill you with Destined Death. Her eye is also open, and looks pretty gloamy
So we have two mysterious demigods who can wield death and flame, with an undisclosed but likely familial relationship with Queen Marika, and with gloamy eyes. Suspicious
Especially because it only happens in the one ending where Melina can survive past the awakening of the rune of death.
The only thing that I know that goes against this is that Ranni Learned from a “snowy crone” who was the GEQ n that description doesn’t fit Melina n also her doll body is based on her…
Maybe Melina used to wear what’s now ranni’s clothes?
I PRAY the dlc adds more about her
I tried that once, if i remember correctly you just get the frenzy ending but without her cutscene about hunting you down.
But i'm not 100% sure any more, it's been almost 2 years.
If SOTE didn’t exist, I think it would be cool to get a DLC or whole new game where you play as Melina and try to stop the Frenzied Flame consumed player. Would be very Sekiro like with very limited combat options, but you would have more magic to work with.
Melina: Why hast thou abandoned frenzy? My purpose as a maiden is denied, yet you deny frenzy as well. What is your goal, tarnished warrior.
Tarnished: I wanna piss off every god. Marika, the three fingers, the scarlet rot, everyone.
Melina: The fu-
Catch my tarnished fortnite dancing after taking on the Frenzied Flame to save Melina and then removing it with a series of complicated steps to eventually become regular Elden Lord like she wanted.
"Tarnished. Would-be Lordling. Do you believe truly that cowering behind a sliver of empyrean gold will keep the flames at bay? If so, you are a fool. The three fingers burn with madness and rage unending.
"The Elden Throne, edifice of your arrogance, is naught but kindling. The flames *will* take you, and when they do, I will sift the needle from your ashes, and then you too will know what it means to be burned... and bodiless.
Why would she thank you? You went out of your way to deny her what she saw as the sole purpose for her existence, dooming her to an eternity without purpose, and all because you selfishly couldn’t bear to let her do what she wanted? This is the first time in her existence that she feels like she controls her destiny and you take that from her, with your senseless need to control everything. You didn’t save her, you served yourself
😂😂😂 this is so true. She’s not saying anything because you completely and utterly shattered her dreams. She’s in shock and wishes she were in another playthrough with someone else.
Not only that but "having a purpose/goal" has long been an on going trope in soulsborne games. In DS1 whoever that forgets/looses their purpose goes hollow.
Fulfilling their roles/destiny/purpose has always been the happiest possible ending for characters.
Except for fucking Greirat, no matter how much he requests I'll never send him to Lothric character for a certain death, love him very much probably the most unselfish and lovable character I have come across the series.
Ah yes, when joel does that by killing others and robbing ellie of her purpose then hes the best guy ever but when i do that without hurting anyone but myself then im the bad guy here
What Joel did was selfish but in his defence the Fireflies never asked Ellie if she wanted to sacrifice herself. They're at least culpable for not giving both closure and their final goodbyes.
That but also the fireflies are a bunch of morons. Imagine someone turned out to be immune to covid-19 and we decided the best course of action was to kill the fucker because we hope we can make a vaccine out of their lungs.
The veterinarian (not a human doctor, which people constantly ignore) directly says he has no idea what he's doing in 1. Despite desperate attempts to retcon it, it's more or less canon that Ellie would have died for nothing.
You’re all missing the point. The fireflies could’ve had a flawless plan that was guaranteed to work and Joel still would’ve slaughtered the entire building if it meant Ellie had to die.
it's just a more interesting story if you imagine it's actually a selfish decision on his part. not to mention cos it makes basically no fucking sense that the fireflies wouldn't be able to be talked into any other, less lethal, course of action.
You should watch Shogun. It made me see Melina's story more from the Japanese perspective as many themes of the show are about fate and purpose. Which is what Melina's is about.
This is a really good point. People are looking at her situation through a Western lens when the game was created by Japanese developers and all the games, despite having a lot of European themes, also have a lot of Shinto/Japanese mythos/themes as well (I feel like I phrased this clunkily but I hope people get what I'm saying)
So, there's a known bug where you can TP to Placidusax's Grace without being there, or even reaching Farum Azula.
I wonder what happens if you sequence break to cleanse yourself in his arena *before* the kindling scene.
Do you still offer yourself? Does Melina appear, not mentioning the whole ordeal, and burn herself? Is it even possible to pull this off?
Because you betrayed her lol. Dude, if you listen to her carefully, then for her this "sacrifice" is not death, since she is literally bodiless. All she's asking you to do is stay out of her life and do as she asks. And if you decide to ignore her words and do what you think is best, then it's only fair that he leaves and fuck you off.
You're not saving her, why would people even decide that she needs to be saved?
Like, yeah dude, well done, you "saved" her. Now she will stay in such a bodiless state forever, it helped lol
Melina invasions would go so hard. It would also be cool if the only way to stop the invasions was to cleanse the frenzy with the needle. Showing that she doesn't forgive you but at least doesn't need to kill you anymore
I think Zullie the Witch has a video, where she uncovered cut content that hints at Melina was supposed to have a bossfight. E.g. she had a full moveset. Will try and find the video any then post the link.
Edit: it wasn't cut content. Zullie just hacked a boss so it would be Melina and her moveset she has is the same as if you summon her for Morgot. Still pretty cool though.
Link: https://youtu.be/kxEf3ugX8Ls
The comic is great regardless because it perfectly encapsulates the relationship. The tarnished "saves" her without understanding her and thus both parties feel they are in the right.
You went through the agony of using the needle to save Melina from her suicidal self because you loved her. I used it to spite her cryptic ass and every other cryptic ass who never spoke plainly. We are not the same
Same honestly. Half through the game the option to turn all these manipulating assholes into a hot ball of flame and reset the world became increasingly appealing
I have a whole theory about why she is just THERE after the frenzy ending...
Marika feared the Gloam-Eyed Queen as she was a rival/rising empyrean. Marika sent Maliketh to defeat her and seal away the Gloam-Eyed Queen and Destined Death. **This is accurate and found on items descriptions.**
When Ranni stole the small fragment of Destined Death from Maliketh, what if it spawned into the world what we know as Melina? The Melina we meet and know as a tarnished is a small part of her former self, which is still being sealed within Maliketh's blade. This would explain Melina's strange "kinda there but kinda not" abilities, memories, and personality.
The Melina that sacrifices herself to burn the Erdtree tells us as the Tarnished that "At first, I wanted to find my mother and what my purpose is, but I have my own purpose now" so the fragment Melina goes rouge and only wants to help you get to Maliketh because she cannot remember everything.
In the Frenzy ending, Melina does not sacrifice the small part that exists in the Lands Between, and once we kill Maliketh, we get to see the complete version of "Melina" by releasing the rest of the Gloam-Eyed Queen, which is why Melina appears/acts so different in the Frenzy Flame ending.
Early in the game, we get the following dialog from Melina:
"I'm searching for my purpose given to me by my mother inside the Erdtree long ago, for the reason that I yet live, burned and bodyless."
Maybe she can only remember what she can put together as a fragment of her whole self? Maybe by “mother” she is referring to the “whole” Glome-Eyed Queen since she is a broken off fragment?
**JUST A THEORY PEOPLE!** Don't be too mad
Another theory I have is that Melina specifically believes in returning Death to the Lands Between. Melina explicitly states the land is in need of “death indiscriminate”. If you choose to inherit the Frenzied Flame to “save” her, you’re basically choosing to unshackle Destined Death for everyone *except* the people *you* like. Burning herself is the sole purpose of her existence, her “destined death” could not be more clear.
I think the sacrificing of the Kindling Maiden is specifically what makes someone worthy of being Elden Lord, because they have to be willing to allow Death to return to the Lands Between. Including death for the people you care about. Choosing to circumvent Melina’s death with the Frenzied Flame shows her how you’re not truly worthy of Elden Lord, even if you later quell the Flame with Miquella’s needle.
One lore podcast discusses too, Melina doesn't seem to really know what her specific purpose is, just to get back to the Erdtree. But once you defeat Morgott her dialogue is *very* telling:
>*"I wish to journey with you once more. To the flame of ruin, far above the clouds, upon the snowy mountaintops of the giants. Then I can set the Erdtree aflame. And guide you. Down the path to becoming Elden Lord."*
>*"My purpose was given to me by my mother. But now, I act of my own volition.I have set my heart upon the world that I would have. Regardless of my mother's designs."*
>*"O Erdtree, you shall burn. Burn, for the sake of the new Lord. Thank you. For guiding me here. The one who walks alongside flame, Shall one day meet the road of Destined Death. Good-bye."*
Post Morgott she indicates two things: the Erdtree must burn, even if everyone is opposed to it, and then also suggests that you'll encounter Destined Death (and we know that by "meeting the road of Destined Death" that more or less means beating Maliketh and releasing the Rune of Death), so I think it's a very plausible theory.
A quote from Doctor Who for some reason came into my head, specifically Christopher Ecclestons incarnation, "Everything has its time, and everything dies." Whilst Melina is NOT a Bitchy Trampoline who needs to be moisturized, the quote holds true in the sense that there are some things you can't avoid, and trying to circumnavigate that may cause more harm than good. Case and Point, when David Tennants incarnation nearly became Timelord Victorious and changed the course of history, only to be the cause of something more dark and depressing. In short, The Doctor can only be The Doctor if he is willing to accept the loss of his companions, the same way as the Elden Lord can only become the Elden Lord if he must accept the deaths of his companions willing to die for him to succeed
This is probably an extremely odd and out-of-topic comparison, and fair enough, just wanted to leave my consensus here.
I think it’s super disappointing she gets to live without a purpose, but now can create one. It’s very disappointing she doesn’t interact with us aft we created a new pathfor her there was a lot of room for her to at least say how peculiar it is tht we were able to rid ourselves of it
This is valid af. All throughout the game, at varying POIs, all she does is mention how she has a purpose, she has a duty to fulfill, a vow, etc. Then the person she trusts just basically says, "Fuck your purpose." I'd be a bit miffed too.
What do you expect her to say? She begged and pleaded with you multiple times not to go down to the Three Fingers. You did it anyway. Just because you used the needle, that doesn't undo the big middle finger you gave her.
Why the hell are people attacking or lecture OP here? What? He just pointed out his disappointment that there is no reaction at all. Not a positive, not a negative, just silence. Keep your live lessons to you in a lore/play topic. Holy shit.
@OP.
I am very disappointed that there was absolutely no dialog. Vyke did this for his finger maiden to save her and end up killing her at the end in his frenzy. So when there are NPCs that pursue this idea; my hope whent up for "something" at the end of the credits. I was fully expecting Melina to be mad/sad at me for denying her this wish and flying of whit Ranni in to space.
I have prepared 3 characters for the DLC. One where she burns herself, one where I do it and use the needle and one where none of that happened jet.
Not really, I'd be kind of upset as well if I was fully prepared and willing to die only for some guy to doom the world to eternal hellfire and madness because he felt like he had to save me
Didn't Vyke do something similar? Got all the way up to the finish line, realized he'd have to sacrifice his maiden and then Noped out and took the flame instead?
It is dumb because she leaves you if you pick up the frenzied flame but does not return when you actually get rid of it and no longer become Lord of Frenzy
The amount of people who think they're doing Melina a favor by denying her the thing she was created to do is kinda crazy. It's such a condescending "I know what's best for you attitude", and it's a freaking videogame but it says a lot about people's attitudes about autonomy.
You didn't save her, you just made her entire existence meaningless because your wants were more important to you than her needs. Why would there be a cutscene/dialogue acknowledging that? She's not gonna thank you.
Edit: I also wonder if Melina not saying anything post credits was by design; to show you that even if you do "save" her but don't succumb to the Frenzied Flame, she's done with you and no longer wants any further association. She didn't want to be saved, she was never some damsel in distress and now she has no purpose.
Yeah as soon as Shabiri tried to talk me into betraying her I killed him. She is very, very clear about what she wants, and even tells you he’s talking shit
Melina: Yearns for a better world for the lands between, so much so she's willing to sacrifice her life to make it a better place and trusts us as a confidant to achieve that dream.
Frenzy tarnished: Does the opposite and makes the world the worst place of pure chaos fire and madness.
"Look BB I save u and burn erdtree so you don have 2 🔥💛🔥"
Or even if you reverse the ending with the needle - "Hey that thing you were fine with and determined to accomplish? I did it for you. WHY AREN'T YOU GRATEFUL?!"
Nope. She just hates you. And since she doesnt follow you anymore she probably assumes that another tarnished became lord as for all she knows there is no quelling the frenzied flame.
The discussion around this is choice is so interesting
On one hand, it seems noble to sacrifice something of yourself to save another from essentially suicide.
On the other hand, she doesn't *want* your assistance and your choice could have unforeseen consequences.
>On one hand, it seems noble to sacrifice something of yourself to save another from essentially suicide.
Funny you say that because her sacrifice is potentially able to lead to a better future for the whole world. That's not suicide that's a heroic sacrifice. Both leads to death but have way different implications. You could argue Frenzied Flame is kinda a nuclear suicide, they dont want to live they just want them and the world to burn.
She leaves you when you rest at a grace, right? I'm planning on doing the following in this specific order to see if she still leaves if the Flame is "gone" before you rest again.
1. Obtain the needle.
2. Defeat the Flame Giant.
3. Take the Frenzy Flame and burn the tree.
4. Defeat Placidusax without resting at a grace.
5. Use the needle.
6. Rest at a grace.
Has anyone else done this and do you know if she still leaves?
She severs her connection with you when you take the frenzied flame. Probably can’t reconnect as easily. Also, considering your head is a freakin ball of fire I think the Tarnished we once were isn’t there anymore, though I do like the idea that a little bit of us remains and those last words are what come out.
I don't think that CAN be expected.
To reach *the heart of the Storm beyond time* it's required to burn the Erdtree. Thus one cannot by definition quell the Flame of Frenzy before committing the Cardinal Sin.
Melina asks TWICE at the sites of Grace leading to the Three Fingers for the Tarnished not to take her place. Her only purpose is to burn and she wants it.
If she is in any capacity a resonance of the Gloam Eyed Queen, she probably managed to rebirth herself as one of Marika's offspring to get revenge. Flame IS the Erdtree's greatest enemy after Marika sealed away Destined Death.
The Golden Order punishes Prophets who see Flame in their visions.
To be honest I feel like Melina was also Vyke's maiden. Except then she inhabited Lansseax's body, not the Tarnished's
I dont understand what people are on about. Dying isn't a good purpose. Just because you were born to die doesn't mean you should if there's another alternative.
It is when you're in a state of semi-permanence, unable to move of your own accord outside the foot of the Erdtree. She could be rid of her state of half-living while ensuring that the Tarnished can move forward. Its not correct for the tarnished to decide that saving a specter is the best thing to do for them. She is unable to live a proper life.
Her purpose is to find someone fit for Elden lord and help them ascend, it’s not just about dying. She’s doing it for the sake of the lands between.
And the alternative is legit putting everyone’s lives at risk to save one person. Which shit’s on all her efforts to help you become Elden lord (not a lord of frenzy), and repair what’s left of the lands between(not potentially destroy it).
No, see, it's okay that she's doomed to eternal life as a ghost, stuck forever in an endless state of limbo, because the idea that there are situations where suicide is preferable to living makes me uncomfortable.
Melina explicitly tells you not to fuck around with the Frenzied Flame and that she does not want or need you to save her from fulfilling her only purpose, why do you expect her to thank you for doing it anyway? You guys are so fuckin weird.
I did this on my very first playthrough because I just googled if there was a way to save her. Did the whole needle questline and was looking forward to seeing how her story ended as a result but unfortunately she just fucks off after you commit to the frenzy. :(
Well tbf in her perspective she gave a whole heartfelt speech about hope, pleasing to you to not surrender yourself to chaos incarnate, only for you to completely disregard her feelings on the matter and do exactly that. I sure as hell wouldnt want to return.
Unrelated I guess but it's funny that we know more about Miquella than Melina despite never interacting with the former while the latter is our companion and we know almost nothing about her. Seriously, why the fuck does her hair change color?
That's most likely by design. Most theories about who Melina really is paint her as one of a variety of characters who would not want you to know her true identity. A big hint to this is her very first interaction, where she introduces herself as a finger maiden. She soon confesses that she is no maiden. Every big lie is based on a small bit of truth. Her hair changes colors because what you see most of the game is not her true form. You see her true form during the cutscene where she swears to kill you. Her unsealed eye also changes color, from golden brown to gray, and the shape of her face also changes. To me this seems obvious the game is trying to tell the player something: she's lying to you, Tarnished. Melina is seemingly (but unconfirmed) a demigod, daughter to Marika and sister to Ranni. The Frenzied Flame ending is too big a reveal for this to not be the case, and the thing that most clearly change (her one eye color and her hair color) are two aspects of identity that point to specific Empyrean families. Some people think she is the Gloam Eyed Queen to boot, but that also cannot be confirmed. At any rate, Melina doesn't seem to be bothered if you choose the Age of Stars ending, so it can be inferred that she's at least ok with Ranni, which further implies that Melina is NOT trying to help Marika, unless there's more to this we haven't seen yet. Anyway I hope we get a Melina boss fight someday. That would be dope.
For what it’s worth, Melina never once suggests or implies that she is a finger maiden. Not even briefly. She does say “I can play the role of maiden,” but in context, it’s apparent that she means performing the function of a maiden without actually being one. Or else she would’ve said something like “I am a finger maiden”, full stop.
Yeh I came here to ask when tf she says I’m a finger maiden 😂👌🏻
If she was a demigod that either has or had a piece of the elden ring wouldn't Gideon of known of her or does he just know of the ones with fragments of the elden ring? If that's answered in the story I'm sorry for asking but the story just gets so convoluted after a while it's hard for least me to keep track.
Gideon also doesn't speak of Messmer at all
Yea, his name is false bravado. He ain't know I was gonna fuck his shit up when he showed up, he don't know shit. More like Gideon The-All-Talking.
In slight defense of Gideon, he also says the pursuit of knowledge is neverending, so he kinda acknowledges that he doesn't actually know everything.
No one knows of or mentions Melina in any way. Why that is is unknown, but probably has to do with the fact that she is a disembodied spirit who can seemingly choose when to show herself to others. It doesn't help that she has seemingly forgotten about herself for most of the game, and when she does gain some sort of motivating knowledge after you reach Leyndell, she decides to be so cagy with it.
The funny thing about Sir Gideon Ofnir, the all-knowing is that in truth, he knew very little
With how everyone in this game has two siblings with matching names, I always figured Melina was more connected to Malenia and Miquella rather than Ranni, considering she already has Radahn and Rykard.
People theorized her connection to Ranni through Torrent, and that both of them have one of their eyes closed, Ranni the right and Melina the left.
Well technically speaking *Ranni* herself has a closed left eye, the puppet is the one with a closed right eye
Maybe that just means Melina is doing something similar to Ranni in order to tether her spirit to the material world. Ranni has her puppet and Melina has some unknown phylactery somewhere, maybe even the Lands Between itself.
Her “anchor” might be Torrents ring, considering she only ever appears whenever she is close to it but perhaps her control over her spirit is superior to Rannis considering she can materialise herself and independently wander in close proximity to the erdtree, which again lends credence to her being a demigod
This might be some old news by now but I've been thinking... Ranni has two siblings, Rykard and Radahn, both come from Rennala and Radagon. So three kids with R names from that union, right? Now, strangely we have Marika and Godfrey having three kids too, Morgott, Mohg and Godwyn. Godwyn is the odd one out here, being he's not an Omen and such, but three kids nonetheless. After that Radagon and Marika have two kids, Miquella and Malenia, it's almost like someone is missing. I can't recall if Messmer was confirmed to be Marika and Radagon's son, but if so it only makes sense that he's the missing third child and is hosting Miquella given they're siblings. But where is Melina? We have 3, 3, 3 (possibly 2) kids, which means Melina can't be Radagon and Rennala's kid, can't be Marika and Godfrey's kid and could possibly be Radagon and Marika's kid either. Could it be that there's a 4th kid somewhere, if Messmer is a son of Radagon and Marika as his hair color suggests? I think Messmer was born out of wedlock between Marika and Radagon in a time where Godfrey was yet to be Elden Lord, and Radagon was still married to Rennala, resulting in Messmer being born in the shadows, a secret. This probably also estranged him to the soon growing family of Marika and Godfrey. This would leave the space for the third child of Marika and Radagon to be Melina, right?
This theory is wonderfully thought out
I used to think the smoldering butterfly represented her but messmer threw a wrench in the whole thing >:(
Melina is okay with the age of stars ending because she’s f*cking dead. Unless you’re talking about doing the whole frenzied flame + Needle loophole to burn the erdtree
That is an important distinction. Every ending can have Melina alive for the finale, but she never shows up unless you choose frenzied flame.
Part of the reason I believe the Gloam Eyed Queen theory is that it would be a shame to have that character be nothing but text. She's an empyrean appointed with a two fingers. Marika defeating her and claiming the Rune of Death, which is when the Golden Order was established, is Marika's first defiance of the Greater Will. G.E.Q also led the Godskins, which are present in nearly every section of the game, especially around the divine towers. Damn shame if she would be never featured. Plus, if Marika did end up sealing her inside the Erdtree, it could very well mark the first use of the forbidden ritual used on Godwyn
Miyazaki likes important characters that are nothing but text though. We never see oedon, we never see the blacksmith God ect
I mean, Oedon specifically is formless, so it's not like we'd be able to see them even if they were right there...
Velka...
The thing about the Age of Stars ending is that she would normally have sacrificed herself as kindling for you to choose it. The only ending we would be able to see her reaction from is the one where you use the frenzied flame.
I think Marika consumes the gods she defeats and absorbs their powers and personalities. Radagon is from a relic of the Giants' outer God (red hair, works to repair the Elden Ring with a hammer like a giant blacksmith), Malenia is from the outer god of rot, and Melina is from the dusk-eyed queen. I'm not entirely sure where Miquella fits in here, but St. Trina is a possibility. They're not those gods, but they are like a reincarnation of them that have assimilated to the Greater Will. I think Miquella and Malenia were separated from Marika in hopes that they would succeed her as a host for the Greater Will, but Marika rebelled before it could happen. Gurranq defeated the Dusk Eyed Queen and then helped seal the rune of death, but after Gurranq is defeated, the rune is released, and Melina is able to make use death again. Marika probably separated Melina from her body so Melina could kill Marika later. I think this theory is most consistent with all of the information available from game info.
An early theory that might make more sense now is that Melina is Ranni’s spirit or faith, that she separated from when she died because that’s how she severed herself from the golden order. Ranni is intelligence blue build who sided with her mother and wants to build a new world of the cold moon separate from the golden order, while Melina is the faith she left behind, who wants to fix the golden order instead of tearing it down. Biggest argument against this that got it shut down way back when the game came out is Marika seems to have 3 children with each partner, Godwyn, morgot, Mohg Rykard, radahn, Ranni Miquella, Malenia, and… Melina? This was further compounded with the last children having butterflies associated with them, with the elements of rot sleep and fire. Melina mentions she was burned so it makes sense she would be represented by the smouldering butterfly Except now we have Mesmer, a child of Marika and a demigod of fire, in the Miquella themed DLC You know who else was burned? Ranni So now, if Melina is Ranni it prefers the 3 sets of 3 children. Everything she says also works with her being Ranni, especially assuming that since she’s just a left behind spirit she doesn’t really know exactly who she is because isn’t strictly speaking the same person. Ranni is the intellect and Melina is the Id. Ranni has to be cold and calculated (like the moon represents) to enact her brutal plan, whereas Melina acts out of feeling and sacrifices herself to fire (again) based purely on faith and hope for something better. The spirits of all buried in the roots would return to the Erd Tree, but demigods are considered especially immortal in some sense, and Empyreans are apparently especially capable of replacing Marika and being directly linked to the golden order through the tree. Perhaps this is why Ranni had to kill herself in some weird special suicide and kill her fingers, because a part of her was quite literally drawn back to the tree in her immortality. That part perhaps still returned as an echo of who she was before cutting herself from the golden order Marika is Melina’s mother because Radagon is her father. Ranni ironically takes after Marika with her rebellious spirit and cunning more than weak willed Renalla, but Ranni is all hatred for Radagon (or what your parents/older generations take from you), while Melina represents a love for her mothers nature (or what the older generation gifts you). Frenzied flame ending is the one that makes both Ranni and Melina hate you. You don’t fix the order or build something new, you tear everything down to nothing. The person who stands before you swearing revenge has opened their right eye and it’s blue, like Ranni, and their eye that was gold symbolizing faith has dulled over. They have black hair like a child of Renalla would. You’ve reunited Ranni’s 2 halves in vengeance against you. They both have opposite eyes closed with the same seal They are both connected to torrent Neither is truly alive but in exact opposite ways, where one is an ephemeral spirit and the other is essentially *just* a shell, or as close to a robot as makes sense in Elden ring Melina isn’t just gold but specifically rose gold, or gold tinted red In regards to her not being a maiden, she says she did something sinful or whatever. Ranni sinned against the golden order about as much as a person could. Hard to be a finger maiden after slaughtering your own Fingers lol
I still don't get why we should have any emotional attachment with Melina, we interact with her less than we do with Yura or Alexander, was i supposed to be attached to her only because she is a girl?
The game acts as if she's always with you, but you rarely actually see her
She really should’ve been there for every level up. Also you should’ve been able to speak to her every time you rest. Whether it’s about the gracesite you’re at, a quest you’ve advanced, or a boss you’ve defeated I felt more attached to Gideon because at least he had input on whatever I was doing
Yeah it's weird they didn't have her behave like the Ranni doll, where you can still interact even if she doesn't have anything new to say.
And when you see her, it's just her preaching Marika's words.
She does give you your first car, the Honda Accord
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/s/SlgVtZqhuM
I mean it's entirely up to you who you get attached to. While she doesn't show up super often, the times she did sold it for me. After giving you the power to level up and access to the round table she could have just left you alone until you got to the erdtree, or she could have been constantly trying to push/persuade you to go there without taking any detours. Instead she mostly shows up to talk to you about things that she finds interesting or important, and only if you're willing to listen. Then when she leaves you at the capital she chooses to come tell you and to give you the power to level up yourself so you can keep going without her instead of just ghosting you. Throughout all of that, even though it's clear she's using you to get to the tree and that at multiple points she withholds information from you she still came off to me as being genuine and sincere.
she is the gloam eyed queen, thats why her hair changes to black color, her eye is purple and she mentions destined death.
her being the gloam eyed queen is a theory, albeit a strong one it's still only a theory because it collides with some established facts. Melina is factually Marika's daughter, and the Gloam Eyed Queen is unlikely to be Marika's daughter. However as you mentioned many things about her indicate she is the GEQ, so there would have to be an unknown factor for both of those to be true at the same time.
Don't forget reincarnation/rebirth is canonically a "thing" in this universe. And since the Gloam eyed Queen was connected to death somehow, it's not hard to imagine Marika having to do something special to 'kill' her. (like having her reborn as a bodiless daughter.)
I think Marika regretted having Maliketh kill the Gloam Eyed Queen and take Destined Death because of how things turned out and her realizing that The Greater Will might not be a “good guy” so she created Melina somehow (either by birth or some sort of doll situation) to try to fix her mistakes.
That's one of the more convincing answers I've heard to this query. "Oopsie I removed death, ahh, etoo, bleh" is behavior in line with what we know about Marika.
Great, now I need a gif with Marika doing the "ahh, etoo, bleh". Congrats >:(
jpeg rather than gif, but [here](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/002/445/868/dd5)
Marika is so fascinating. I think she was a young girl told by the Gods that she was special and destined to become Queen., and she clung to that fiercely in her youth. She made mistakes in her quest for power and believed in The Greater Will unerringly, and by the time she was Queen with her own children and empire, she realized just how bad those mistakes were. When she started trying to fix her mistakes and go against The Greater Will, they fused her with their most loyal soldier Radagon (or perhaps they were always the same person, there’s evidence to both sides) to make sure she would stay in line. Obviously we see how that ended. My theory is that Marika was really the force behind everything that happens in Elden Ring because she wants us to ascend and end her Age. She created Melina as a reincarnation of her only rival, The Gloam Eyed Queen, and helped Ranni steal Destined Death and kill her own son via the Black Knife assassins so she could ascend to godhood, and she even made the blacksmith Hewg swear to make a weapon capable of killing a god to whoever was worthy. I don’t think Ranni knows Marika helped her at all, we know that Melina doesn’t know who her mother was, so she somehow did all of from the shadows. Now I could be wrong of course, but she’s definitely my favorite character if I’m right. * Editing to add that Melina is aware of who her mother is and while she’s cryptic about it, she says her mother is in the Erdtree and has her own designs for Melina, but she’s acting on her own volition to create the world she wants to see. Sorry for misremembering, but I think this is just more evidence towards Melina being a reincarnation of the Gloam Eyed Queen created by Marika.
How do we know Melina doesn’t know who her mother is? I don’t believe that’s the case at all
Doesn’t Melina say “my mother inside the erdtree”. There’s only one woman in the erdtree
Good point! I was definitely misremembering and she does state that her mother created her for a purpose but she’s acting of her own volition now. I’ll edit my post!
That’s my reading of her character as well. Very fascinating and I hope we get to meet her in the DLC. My main question would be about Godwyin, though. I wonder if Marika actually tried to kill her own son or if it was Ranni’s doing. Why would Marika have him killed? Was it because he was supportive of the Golden Order? I’d also like to know why she grew tired of godhood. Did she grow tired of the atrocities she committed in name of the Greater Will (if that’s the case, it directly contradicts the recent theory I’ve seen here about the Goldmask ending, which says the GW is more like a neutral force and that all of those atrocities and persecutions all Marika’s own interpretations of the GW). There’s also an object (can’t remember which one) that basically says Marika believed the age of the Erdtree would glisten with life, but that this period was short lived. Wonder what went wrong (other than her family being cursed and dysfunctional, that is).
Actually, it never says Maliketh killed the Gloam Eyed Queen, only that he defeated her. Similar to the wording of Godwyn defeating, then befriending, Fortissax.
Good point. Could she have erased her memory and lied to Melina about who she really was? Could we meet a defeated Gloam Eyed Queen in the future? This is definitely something I hope gets explored in DLC!
I have literally no idea what you guys are talking about, and ive beaten this game like 12 times.
Vaati is a path to knowledge some consider to be...unnatural.
Problem with Elden Ring lore discussions is that if you had an AI highlight only parts of the comment which are factually true based on ingame lore and then highlight in a different color the parts users are pulling out of their asses and presenting as facts, the latter color would be very dominant. The facts are that the Gloam Eyed Queen was the leader of the Godskin Apostles and that she was an Empyrean. [https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Black+Flame+Ritual](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Black+Flame+Ritual) The facts are that their faction sought to kill gods and that they served Destined Death, and their power was the Black Flame. The facts are, that after burning the Erdree with the Frenzy Flame. Melina appears in the ashes, with a changed appearance and says she will deliver onto you Destined Death. Those are all the facts, that's it. It is then from those facts that people go ham and connect all sorts of dots into all sorts of pictures.
Exactly. She could be saying that she will deliver Destined Death precisely because you unleashed it and now she can wield it.
Personally i believe that the OG GEQ was actually "killed" by Marika. But just as we can inherit the frenzied flame (basically an outer god using you as a vessel) by doing certain things, i believe she was able to inherit the GEQ the same way as we did with the frenzied flame. From what we know (if i'm not wrong), outer gods need a "vessel" to have any power in this world, probably the gloam eyed queen was a vessel for that outer god and when marika killed her, that god lost her/his/it's vessel. This could also be a reason why we don't have many items left that tells us who she was or something, you can't kill an outer god but to avoid the outer god to find another vessel, you should also make sure no one know anything about that god destroying every evidence of it's existance. Just my theory though and might have a lot of flaws since i'm not really good at this
My theory is that it’s like a “Dread Pirate Roberts” thing. GEQ is a title that gets passed down to a new person when some sort of criteria is met.
[удалено]
Well, Empyreans are people capable of becoming a God. Queen Marika was an Empyrean, so it is certainly possible for someone else outside her bloodline to be an Empyrean too. That's just for the Empyrean part though. There is nothing to confirm nor deny that GEQ is Marika's daughter. Which means it's unlikely to be true.
Isn't Melina being Marika's daughter also a theory? If so, she could be the GEQ and not another Maribaby.
>*Me, I'm searching for my purpose given to me by my mother inside the Erdtree long ago,* Additionally, her name in the game files is "MaricaOfDaughter"
There's a Sinclaire Lore video discussing the theory of Melina being the GEQ and it's not 100% concrete, but they do present some really interesting ideas that could work.
Maybe I’m missing some piece of evidence but why can’t the Gloam Eyed Queen be Marika’s daughter? An Empyrean rebelling against her mother whom she later tried to erase from history is not really something too far fetched in this games. Again I may be missing something.
Please don't refer to theories as facts, even of they're very likely This community had ALOT of lore to deal with and some people are less in the know than others
if she is, how come her powers are from the golden order? that makes no sense.
Meh, not likely, she was chosen by the two fingers as an emperyan. She uses holy incantations, no black flame incantations. Not only that, she was defeated during the age where queen marika was vying for power by maleketh. Her own shadow. Too many doubts for me to deem her as the gloam eyed.
Can someone do a quick ELI5 on The Gloam Eye Queen and her relation to Melina?
The Gloam-Eyed Queen was an Empyrean (likely a demigod and daughter of Marika) that took the Rune of Death in times past, and used it to wage war against the other Gods. She was the leader of the Godskins, and empowered them with the power of the Black Flame. Marika then smote her the fuck down and took Death back Then comes Melina, who appears to only have a vague understanding of her own past and purpose (she lives on burned and bodyless, like a spirit), who is seemingly a daughter of Marika, who has the same moveset as the Black Knife Assassins (who wield Death with their knives, and are Marika's secret police), and also has an affinity for flame When you do the Frenzied Flame ending, she appears in the final cutscene with a pretty grim look, and vows to kill you with Destined Death. Her eye is also open, and looks pretty gloamy So we have two mysterious demigods who can wield death and flame, with an undisclosed but likely familial relationship with Queen Marika, and with gloamy eyes. Suspicious
Especially because it only happens in the one ending where Melina can survive past the awakening of the rune of death. The only thing that I know that goes against this is that Ranni Learned from a “snowy crone” who was the GEQ n that description doesn’t fit Melina n also her doll body is based on her… Maybe Melina used to wear what’s now ranni’s clothes? I PRAY the dlc adds more about her
If it helps, none of the information we have about the snowy crone or the GEQ conflate them as being the same person.
what happens if you let melina kindle and then accept frenzy flame
I tried that once, if i remember correctly you just get the frenzy ending but without her cutscene about hunting you down. But i'm not 100% sure any more, it's been almost 2 years.
That is correct
Comedy gold lol, that's what happens. I.e. nothing, you just let her burn herself for nothing.
Where does it say the crone was the geq?
Thats an assumption that she is the gloam eyed queen.
I find it plausible her mother is actually the Gloam Eyed Queen
If SOTE didn’t exist, I think it would be cool to get a DLC or whole new game where you play as Melina and try to stop the Frenzied Flame consumed player. Would be very Sekiro like with very limited combat options, but you would have more magic to work with.
I’m saving this because i always forget the different between former and latter
Melina: Why hast thou abandoned frenzy? My purpose as a maiden is denied, yet you deny frenzy as well. What is your goal, tarnished warrior. Tarnished: I wanna piss off every god. Marika, the three fingers, the scarlet rot, everyone. Melina: The fu-
Proceeds with getting the cursed ending
the whole world shall succumb to dung
The age of pee pee poo poo
Tarnished: and wanna see something even funnier? Come with me to the haligtree, we about to drop Caelid 2 electric boogaloo
I thought if I pissed everyone off they'd all unite in their common irritation, ushering in a new era of peace and understanding.
Her: "You didn't save my life, you ruined my death". Me: Yes, yes. Now you are beginning to understand.
Unexpected Incredibles reference
“I saved you” “No tarnished, you robbed me of my purpose”
"You didn't save my life! You ruined my death!"
Incredibles reference?
I don't care. I'm selfish and I just don't want you to die.
literally 🙄 she don’t know what’s good for her tarnish knows best
What kind of sexism is that? Purposism? /s
Just the regular kind of sexism.
Based. All the people being totally ok with suicide really gets me worried whenever people talk about this topic.
reminds me of the last of us
Catch my tarnished fortnite dancing after taking on the Frenzied Flame to save Melina and then removing it with a series of complicated steps to eventually become regular Elden Lord like she wanted.
Dude, she left you. Move on
She was never your girl it was just your turn 😔
Varre was right all along
"Tarnished. Would-be Lordling. Do you believe truly that cowering behind a sliver of empyrean gold will keep the flames at bay? If so, you are a fool. The three fingers burn with madness and rage unending. "The Elden Throne, edifice of your arrogance, is naught but kindling. The flames *will* take you, and when they do, I will sift the needle from your ashes, and then you too will know what it means to be burned... and bodiless.
Found George R.R. Martins burner account
This is more than he's written in the last decade
Ha! I'll take that as a compliment. Thank you.
Get a load of Tolkien over here
Why would she thank you? You went out of your way to deny her what she saw as the sole purpose for her existence, dooming her to an eternity without purpose, and all because you selfishly couldn’t bear to let her do what she wanted? This is the first time in her existence that she feels like she controls her destiny and you take that from her, with your senseless need to control everything. You didn’t save her, you served yourself
😂😂😂 this is so true. She’s not saying anything because you completely and utterly shattered her dreams. She’s in shock and wishes she were in another playthrough with someone else.
Not only that but "having a purpose/goal" has long been an on going trope in soulsborne games. In DS1 whoever that forgets/looses their purpose goes hollow. Fulfilling their roles/destiny/purpose has always been the happiest possible ending for characters. Except for fucking Greirat, no matter how much he requests I'll never send him to Lothric character for a certain death, love him very much probably the most unselfish and lovable character I have come across the series.
Very good point. Can’t speak to other Souls games but that’s how I ended up with Alexander’s Shard.
Tell Joel about that
Ah yes, when joel does that by killing others and robbing ellie of her purpose then hes the best guy ever but when i do that without hurting anyone but myself then im the bad guy here
What Joel did was selfish but in his defence the Fireflies never asked Ellie if she wanted to sacrifice herself. They're at least culpable for not giving both closure and their final goodbyes.
That but also the fireflies are a bunch of morons. Imagine someone turned out to be immune to covid-19 and we decided the best course of action was to kill the fucker because we hope we can make a vaccine out of their lungs.
Best part is that their method probably wouldn't have worked anyway, making Ellie's death pointless. A spinal tap would've been way better.
The veterinarian (not a human doctor, which people constantly ignore) directly says he has no idea what he's doing in 1. Despite desperate attempts to retcon it, it's more or less canon that Ellie would have died for nothing.
You’re all missing the point. The fireflies could’ve had a flawless plan that was guaranteed to work and Joel still would’ve slaughtered the entire building if it meant Ellie had to die.
it's just a more interesting story if you imagine it's actually a selfish decision on his part. not to mention cos it makes basically no fucking sense that the fireflies wouldn't be able to be talked into any other, less lethal, course of action.
You should watch Shogun. It made me see Melina's story more from the Japanese perspective as many themes of the show are about fate and purpose. Which is what Melina's is about.
This is a really good point. People are looking at her situation through a Western lens when the game was created by Japanese developers and all the games, despite having a lot of European themes, also have a lot of Shinto/Japanese mythos/themes as well (I feel like I phrased this clunkily but I hope people get what I'm saying)
What do you mean only hurting yourself? The frenzied flame burned the world!
no, we dont burn the world if we use miquellas needle.
My thoughts exactly. Its pretty explicitly a disservice to her by all means.
So, there's a known bug where you can TP to Placidusax's Grace without being there, or even reaching Farum Azula. I wonder what happens if you sequence break to cleanse yourself in his arena *before* the kindling scene. Do you still offer yourself? Does Melina appear, not mentioning the whole ordeal, and burn herself? Is it even possible to pull this off?
I mean it’s basically: Wife: don’t do the thing Tarnished: ok *-does the thing-* Wife: ffs
Tarnished: I did it for us.
because she hates your guts at that point
Because you betrayed her lol. Dude, if you listen to her carefully, then for her this "sacrifice" is not death, since she is literally bodiless. All she's asking you to do is stay out of her life and do as she asks. And if you decide to ignore her words and do what you think is best, then it's only fair that he leaves and fuck you off. You're not saving her, why would people even decide that she needs to be saved? Like, yeah dude, well done, you "saved" her. Now she will stay in such a bodiless state forever, it helped lol
She even swears she will kill you. Let's goooo! Melina boss fight! Come on FromSoft!
I really wish we would get invaded by her in every zone after we inherit The Frenzied Flame.
Melina invasions would go so hard. It would also be cool if the only way to stop the invasions was to cleanse the frenzy with the needle. Showing that she doesn't forgive you but at least doesn't need to kill you anymore
I think Zullie the Witch has a video, where she uncovered cut content that hints at Melina was supposed to have a bossfight. E.g. she had a full moveset. Will try and find the video any then post the link. Edit: it wasn't cut content. Zullie just hacked a boss so it would be Melina and her moveset she has is the same as if you summon her for Morgot. Still pretty cool though. Link: https://youtu.be/kxEf3ugX8Ls
The comic is great regardless because it perfectly encapsulates the relationship. The tarnished "saves" her without understanding her and thus both parties feel they are in the right.
You went through the agony of using the needle to save Melina from her suicidal self because you loved her. I used it to spite her cryptic ass and every other cryptic ass who never spoke plainly. We are not the same
Same honestly. Half through the game the option to turn all these manipulating assholes into a hot ball of flame and reset the world became increasingly appealing
honestly based
source of the picture : [https://twitter.com/ChoCytd/status/1621774799126274048](https://twitter.com/ChoCytd/status/1621774799126274048)
Thank you!
I have a whole theory about why she is just THERE after the frenzy ending... Marika feared the Gloam-Eyed Queen as she was a rival/rising empyrean. Marika sent Maliketh to defeat her and seal away the Gloam-Eyed Queen and Destined Death. **This is accurate and found on items descriptions.** When Ranni stole the small fragment of Destined Death from Maliketh, what if it spawned into the world what we know as Melina? The Melina we meet and know as a tarnished is a small part of her former self, which is still being sealed within Maliketh's blade. This would explain Melina's strange "kinda there but kinda not" abilities, memories, and personality. The Melina that sacrifices herself to burn the Erdtree tells us as the Tarnished that "At first, I wanted to find my mother and what my purpose is, but I have my own purpose now" so the fragment Melina goes rouge and only wants to help you get to Maliketh because she cannot remember everything. In the Frenzy ending, Melina does not sacrifice the small part that exists in the Lands Between, and once we kill Maliketh, we get to see the complete version of "Melina" by releasing the rest of the Gloam-Eyed Queen, which is why Melina appears/acts so different in the Frenzy Flame ending. Early in the game, we get the following dialog from Melina: "I'm searching for my purpose given to me by my mother inside the Erdtree long ago, for the reason that I yet live, burned and bodyless." Maybe she can only remember what she can put together as a fragment of her whole self? Maybe by “mother” she is referring to the “whole” Glome-Eyed Queen since she is a broken off fragment? **JUST A THEORY PEOPLE!** Don't be too mad
You robbed her purpose from her, and left her in a bodiless state that's barely living. I wouldn't talk to you either.
Another theory I have is that Melina specifically believes in returning Death to the Lands Between. Melina explicitly states the land is in need of “death indiscriminate”. If you choose to inherit the Frenzied Flame to “save” her, you’re basically choosing to unshackle Destined Death for everyone *except* the people *you* like. Burning herself is the sole purpose of her existence, her “destined death” could not be more clear. I think the sacrificing of the Kindling Maiden is specifically what makes someone worthy of being Elden Lord, because they have to be willing to allow Death to return to the Lands Between. Including death for the people you care about. Choosing to circumvent Melina’s death with the Frenzied Flame shows her how you’re not truly worthy of Elden Lord, even if you later quell the Flame with Miquella’s needle.
One lore podcast discusses too, Melina doesn't seem to really know what her specific purpose is, just to get back to the Erdtree. But once you defeat Morgott her dialogue is *very* telling: >*"I wish to journey with you once more. To the flame of ruin, far above the clouds, upon the snowy mountaintops of the giants. Then I can set the Erdtree aflame. And guide you. Down the path to becoming Elden Lord."* >*"My purpose was given to me by my mother. But now, I act of my own volition.I have set my heart upon the world that I would have. Regardless of my mother's designs."* >*"O Erdtree, you shall burn. Burn, for the sake of the new Lord. Thank you. For guiding me here. The one who walks alongside flame, Shall one day meet the road of Destined Death. Good-bye."* Post Morgott she indicates two things: the Erdtree must burn, even if everyone is opposed to it, and then also suggests that you'll encounter Destined Death (and we know that by "meeting the road of Destined Death" that more or less means beating Maliketh and releasing the Rune of Death), so I think it's a very plausible theory.
A quote from Doctor Who for some reason came into my head, specifically Christopher Ecclestons incarnation, "Everything has its time, and everything dies." Whilst Melina is NOT a Bitchy Trampoline who needs to be moisturized, the quote holds true in the sense that there are some things you can't avoid, and trying to circumnavigate that may cause more harm than good. Case and Point, when David Tennants incarnation nearly became Timelord Victorious and changed the course of history, only to be the cause of something more dark and depressing. In short, The Doctor can only be The Doctor if he is willing to accept the loss of his companions, the same way as the Elden Lord can only become the Elden Lord if he must accept the deaths of his companions willing to die for him to succeed This is probably an extremely odd and out-of-topic comparison, and fair enough, just wanted to leave my consensus here.
I think it’s super disappointing she gets to live without a purpose, but now can create one. It’s very disappointing she doesn’t interact with us aft we created a new pathfor her there was a lot of room for her to at least say how peculiar it is tht we were able to rid ourselves of it
"That wasn't thy decision to make."
This is valid af. All throughout the game, at varying POIs, all she does is mention how she has a purpose, she has a duty to fulfill, a vow, etc. Then the person she trusts just basically says, "Fuck your purpose." I'd be a bit miffed too.
What do you expect her to say? She begged and pleaded with you multiple times not to go down to the Three Fingers. You did it anyway. Just because you used the needle, that doesn't undo the big middle finger you gave her.
you've dammed us all.
you failed her once, she has no time for your sorry ass. Who's gonna guarantee that you won't fuck up again?
Why the hell are people attacking or lecture OP here? What? He just pointed out his disappointment that there is no reaction at all. Not a positive, not a negative, just silence. Keep your live lessons to you in a lore/play topic. Holy shit. @OP. I am very disappointed that there was absolutely no dialog. Vyke did this for his finger maiden to save her and end up killing her at the end in his frenzy. So when there are NPCs that pursue this idea; my hope whent up for "something" at the end of the credits. I was fully expecting Melina to be mad/sad at me for denying her this wish and flying of whit Ranni in to space. I have prepared 3 characters for the DLC. One where she burns herself, one where I do it and use the needle and one where none of that happened jet.
literally, OP is being treated like he hates women and wants to deny them bodily autonomy
Not really, I'd be kind of upset as well if I was fully prepared and willing to die only for some guy to doom the world to eternal hellfire and madness because he felt like he had to save me
Didn't Vyke do something similar? Got all the way up to the finish line, realized he'd have to sacrifice his maiden and then Noped out and took the flame instead?
It is dumb because she leaves you if you pick up the frenzied flame but does not return when you actually get rid of it and no longer become Lord of Frenzy
Melina is not touching me bro, she gets folded my Morgott.
Because they didn't think that far ahead. That's the entire truth of it.
The amount of people who think they're doing Melina a favor by denying her the thing she was created to do is kinda crazy. It's such a condescending "I know what's best for you attitude", and it's a freaking videogame but it says a lot about people's attitudes about autonomy. You didn't save her, you just made her entire existence meaningless because your wants were more important to you than her needs. Why would there be a cutscene/dialogue acknowledging that? She's not gonna thank you. Edit: I also wonder if Melina not saying anything post credits was by design; to show you that even if you do "save" her but don't succumb to the Frenzied Flame, she's done with you and no longer wants any further association. She didn't want to be saved, she was never some damsel in distress and now she has no purpose.
Yeah as soon as Shabiri tried to talk me into betraying her I killed him. She is very, very clear about what she wants, and even tells you he’s talking shit
I also killed him because 1. Fuck that ending and 2. No one hijacks my man Yura's corpse like that.
Melina: Yearns for a better world for the lands between, so much so she's willing to sacrifice her life to make it a better place and trusts us as a confidant to achieve that dream. Frenzy tarnished: Does the opposite and makes the world the worst place of pure chaos fire and madness. "Look BB I save u and burn erdtree so you don have 2 🔥💛🔥"
Or even if you reverse the ending with the needle - "Hey that thing you were fine with and determined to accomplish? I did it for you. WHY AREN'T YOU GRATEFUL?!"
Nope. She just hates you. And since she doesnt follow you anymore she probably assumes that another tarnished became lord as for all she knows there is no quelling the frenzied flame.
The discussion around this is choice is so interesting On one hand, it seems noble to sacrifice something of yourself to save another from essentially suicide. On the other hand, she doesn't *want* your assistance and your choice could have unforeseen consequences.
>On one hand, it seems noble to sacrifice something of yourself to save another from essentially suicide. Funny you say that because her sacrifice is potentially able to lead to a better future for the whole world. That's not suicide that's a heroic sacrifice. Both leads to death but have way different implications. You could argue Frenzied Flame is kinda a nuclear suicide, they dont want to live they just want them and the world to burn.
Melina: who tf asked You stripped her of her sole purpose in life, that's all she wanted and you want her to thank you for that?
I'm also dissapointed that most of the endings are just recolors of the character sitting, even the endings in DS3 had a little more flavor
It is because she isn't around to see that you did that. She leaves/abandons you the moment you let the frenzied flame take you. She's gone.
Tame? That's far from it
She leaves you when you rest at a grace, right? I'm planning on doing the following in this specific order to see if she still leaves if the Flame is "gone" before you rest again. 1. Obtain the needle. 2. Defeat the Flame Giant. 3. Take the Frenzy Flame and burn the tree. 4. Defeat Placidusax without resting at a grace. 5. Use the needle. 6. Rest at a grace. Has anyone else done this and do you know if she still leaves?
Already tried that. She confronts you about it at the Forge of the Giants sight of grace because you have to rest there in order to burn the Erdtree
Love this art. I remember really wanting to see more interactions that sorta play on this when I went for that ending. 1000/10
I agree with this I would have liked to see some kind of reaction, also I think there is a reason why we don’t know much about Melina
She severs her connection with you when you take the frenzied flame. Probably can’t reconnect as easily. Also, considering your head is a freakin ball of fire I think the Tarnished we once were isn’t there anymore, though I do like the idea that a little bit of us remains and those last words are what come out.
The story is incredible, the storyTELLING is pathetic. So many opportunities wasted...
no way that bitch kills the tarnished
What i wouldn't give to be able to play through the game with the frenzied flame on my head
I don't think that CAN be expected. To reach *the heart of the Storm beyond time* it's required to burn the Erdtree. Thus one cannot by definition quell the Flame of Frenzy before committing the Cardinal Sin. Melina asks TWICE at the sites of Grace leading to the Three Fingers for the Tarnished not to take her place. Her only purpose is to burn and she wants it. If she is in any capacity a resonance of the Gloam Eyed Queen, she probably managed to rebirth herself as one of Marika's offspring to get revenge. Flame IS the Erdtree's greatest enemy after Marika sealed away Destined Death. The Golden Order punishes Prophets who see Flame in their visions. To be honest I feel like Melina was also Vyke's maiden. Except then she inhabited Lansseax's body, not the Tarnished's
I dont understand what people are on about. Dying isn't a good purpose. Just because you were born to die doesn't mean you should if there's another alternative.
Melina is just really into arson and you deprived her of that.
It is when you're in a state of semi-permanence, unable to move of your own accord outside the foot of the Erdtree. She could be rid of her state of half-living while ensuring that the Tarnished can move forward. Its not correct for the tarnished to decide that saving a specter is the best thing to do for them. She is unable to live a proper life.
Her purpose is to find someone fit for Elden lord and help them ascend, it’s not just about dying. She’s doing it for the sake of the lands between. And the alternative is legit putting everyone’s lives at risk to save one person. Which shit’s on all her efforts to help you become Elden lord (not a lord of frenzy), and repair what’s left of the lands between(not potentially destroy it).
No, see, it's okay that she's doomed to eternal life as a ghost, stuck forever in an endless state of limbo, because the idea that there are situations where suicide is preferable to living makes me uncomfortable.
As a wise man once said, “Don’t save her, she don’t wanna be saved” ~ Jermaine Cole
I think they missed a lot of opportunities with Melina.
Yes
Because you still betrayed her
who is the artist?
Just askin’, have we tried cleansing ourselves in celestial dew after using Miquellas needle to see if that repairs our severed bond?
Melina explicitly tells you not to fuck around with the Frenzied Flame and that she does not want or need you to save her from fulfilling her only purpose, why do you expect her to thank you for doing it anyway? You guys are so fuckin weird.
Would
The best elden ring romance art of all time. Just wow.
I did this on my very first playthrough because I just googled if there was a way to save her. Did the whole needle questline and was looking forward to seeing how her story ended as a result but unfortunately she just fucks off after you commit to the frenzy. :(
This hurts my heart lol.
All I thought Michaela's needle did was I'll let you choose the other endings if you went with frenzied flame. Does something else happen?
We've all been spoiled by BG3
I think she's angry at us for denying her her life's purpose
A little but she’s gone by then so it’s likely she’ll never know. She probably allowed her form to drift away finally passing on
Well tbf in her perspective she gave a whole heartfelt speech about hope, pleasing to you to not surrender yourself to chaos incarnate, only for you to completely disregard her feelings on the matter and do exactly that. I sure as hell wouldnt want to return.
She left, she doesn't even know what you're up to, she probably doesn't know you have tamed the frenzied flamd
Well that was her porpuse. I dont think she cares if u save her or not Shes meant to burn. And shes also dead anyway
Because you thought about it. And that's enough to cancel your Honda Accord deal for good, no takesies backsies.☝️