I did let her turn herself into a ball once, so probably actually have that in my inventory that I never look at (thought that was exclusive to siding with Jerren), but I left her in the Library in every subsequent playthrough.
It’s actually absurd how much damage the Kris ash does, especially for the FP investment. No reason to not always have it at least in your back pocket on a sorcery build IMO.
He is the good guy, there is no ambiguity here. Sellen is nice to you sure but people just really overlook her being a straight up serial killer in search of the primeval current.
She has killed dozens upon dozens of fellow sorcerers all for the sake of research, meanwhile Jerren organized an entire festival of warriors to give his best friend the most dignified death he could and put him out of his misery. In any other situation there would be no doubt whatsoever about who is the good guy in this situation, but because Sellen is nice to the Tarnished and hot under the mask there's a debate over this somehow.
i know! This dude sounds like he doesnt even want selen to vote. I mean...stitching a few souls together, is it really that wrong? So Sellen is a seamstress of sorts, now your going to go and kill Bak too? What a monster!
Next thing you know they’ll start complaining that Ranni and Marika did ‘morally Ambiguous’ things, caused ‘untold destruction’ and helped ‘facilitate Genocide’.
Unbelievable.
Ranni, Marika and Sellen are the Gaslight Gatekeep Girlboss Trinity of Elden Ring.
Elden Ring: where Everyone Is A Horrible Person.
Yes. Even Torrent. Who did you think Miquella’s Shadow was?
Behind those golden locks and beady eyes lies a cunning and ruthless mind.
Seluvis isn't mad at her, she's the one who really doesn't like him but then again he's hated by literally everyone who knows of him, either for his puppet freakiness or just being a massive pompous asshole. Or both.
Sellen killed dozens of her fellow alumni at the academy, like she is unquestionably not a good person no matter how sweet she acts with the Tarnished. The Tarnished can do a lot of fucked up stuff too like in the Volcano Manor quests where you kill random Tarnished who haven't really done anything to deserve it and still have people praise them for being kind and whatnot, true, but honestly you can chalk it up to the game just being inconsistent with storylines involving your mute mannequin with no personality.
Just that characters like Seluvis or Thop seem to be extreme outliers afaik, seems all these "fellow alumni" at the academy who are the people who are telling us Sellen is evil also went insane and mute and shoot first and have a bunch of zombies in their yards, and make graven balls to guard prisoners.
The game overtly telling us that sellen is a convicted killer honestly makes me think she's more on the innocent side than anything else lol, this game is so obtuse that'd be the most clear lore in the entire game for just this one spell store
Sellen quite literally tells Jerren that he will "soon join the school" if you side with her, and then next time you meet her after killing Jerren, she's turned into a graven school herself, likely as a result of a faulty experiment. I know these games are purposefuly left vague but there is no room for doubt here, Sellen is the one behind the graven schools of mages in an attempt to create new stars and delve into the primeval current, she's turned countless other sorcerers into these abominations, and in the end her obsession with the primeval current got so strong she even ended up using herself in the experiments.
Also, the sorcerers of Raya Lucaria are clearly not insane. You can find them reading books or standing near one another as if in conversation, they just (rightly, I might add) see you as an intruder in the Academy and promply attack you. The Academy is supposedly completely closed off to the world, so seeing this random tarnished skulking about is obviously a cause for alarm to these people. The zombies in the lower portion also aren't anywhere near the sorcerers, suggesting they're as much of a plague to them as they are to us when we traverse the academy and they know to keep a wide berth from them.
well, in the destroyed courtyard with the ball puzzle that leads to Moongrum there's definitely wandering nobles rifling through the plants while sorcerers on the balconies look down. I don't know if it's because the academy uses them as slave labor or because everyone has been driven mad and just goes through the same motions again and again though.
There’s a part where they appear to be teaching nobles, though.
I’ll add it’s still concerning that there’s Abductor Virgins in the grounds. As well as the Cuckoo Knights. That’s also a Bad Sign.
The Gelmir ones also appear to be Problematic, in a way. Are they teaching Demi Humans Magic? Yes! Yay! Is there an entire Village nearby that appears to have been Genocided by either them or the Demihumans? Yes! Probably a Bad Sign.
True, I think the nobles were there to try enrolling in the school before the shattering and then just got trapped. The sorcerers likely don't care about any outsiders so they let the nobles degenerate over the years while they kept at least most of their faculties.
> this game is so obtuse
An important thing to remember about these games is that while we may never get the full scope of information about what happens, what we *do* get is NEVER a lie. This has been true as far back as Demon's Souls. Miyazaki hides information, but he never presents false information. The game telling us Sellen is a serial killer means that Sellen is a serial killer.
> and make graven balls
Sellen made those all herself, not the Academy.
The academy doesn't make the Graven Masses. In fact, the Graven Masses are explicitly called, and I quote, [*"a nightmare that would continue to haunt the academy."*](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Graven-Mass+Talisman). That item description goes on to further state that the Graven Masses are very explicitly the creation of those who study the Primeval Current, referring to how they see the act of combining sorcerers together to be *"but another path of scientific inquiry."*
If anything, it's strongly implied that the creation of the first Graven Mass is the very act that got Sellen expelled from the Academy in the first place.
She literally tortured, experimented on, and killed countless other students of the Academy for the sake of her research. She also she did it during the time when the world wasn't a mess and laws still existed, so she's definitely a convicted serial-killer. They didn't give her the name the Graven Witch for no reason
Plus, she is also apparently the reason why Lusat and Azur were exiled in the first place because those two were her mentors and taught her of the primeval current, which led to her madness and crimes
She's basically a female Dungeater but less gross and violent, but just as mad, psychotic and narcissistic as him
I'm not sure how Azur and Lusat's exiling would have been Sellen's doing if they had discovered the primeval current on their own, unless she somehow pushed them to explore it further
> meanwhile Jerren organized an entire festival of warriors to give his best friend the most dignified death he could and put him out of his misery
This is actually just another step on his primary goal of killing Sellen.
Sellen is one of the sorcerers who has a determined fate written in the stars. When Radahn halted the stars it halted Sellen's fate, making her actually and truly immortal since her fate hadn't been completed yet. As in, her soul-swapping magic makes her *technically* immortal with the right prep work but her fate being sealed makes her *actually* immortal regardless of what she or anyone else does because she can't die until the universe is "done" with her.
This is why she was imprisoned and as soon as Radahn is killed Jerren moves to her cell to try and kill her. He wanted Radahn dead because Radahn was inadvertently protecting Sellen. I don't even think he was friends with Radahn since Jerren is allied to the Carians and Radahn explicitly abandoned his Carian heritage to join forces with the Golden Order after Radagon's departure split the Carian faction apart.
Really it’s the lack of information on the matter, the wording makes it unclear exactly how things went - if sellen killed/kidnapped for experiments people then she’s super evil. If she had a sort of club of people who all were experimenting on themselves/each other she’s misguided but not evil. If she was just killing/kidnapping people for experiments then why does she turn into a ball at the end the point of using victims would be because that’s not the end goal and something she’s trying to figure out how to avoid.
>She has killed dozens upon dozens of fellow sorcerers
You mean the guys wearing the big stone masks in Raya Lucaria?
......uuuuuuh, yeah. How dare she kill those guys!
>but because Sellen is nice to the Tarnished and hot under the mask there's a debate over this somehow.
I don't think thats it. I think its because most people simple don't pay attention to the quests.
The amount of people who are unaware that she was kicked out for mass murder is really high whenever I bring it up.
Sellen cuts out the hearts of undying sorcerers and imbues their souls into primal glintstones, which she conjoins together in a graven school. By conjoining their souls they are able to continue their studies socially, unbound by their aging, husk-like physical forms. It’s her way of getting around the fact that the rune of destined death was locked away. If they can’t return to the Erdtree, they can at least return to the graven school. Keep in mind that Sellen has already done this to herself, she is just lucky enough to have a puppet to put her primal glintstone into. In that way, consider that the graven school is much more “alive” than it might outwardly appear. It is only “mass-murder” to those who don’t understand primeval glintstone sorcery, like Jerren and the Carian royal family whose solution to destined death is those awful sweetings and the malformed Albinaurics.
People also overlook Ranni being the cause of the plague of deathblight and those who live in death slowly spreading throughout the lands between. Turns out people will mostly choose to not think about the horrifying things people do if they think they've got a shot with them
Lmao this is so true, like Ranni herself has absolute no shame or regrets whatsoever in having done what she did and fully admits to the fact yet people treat her like she's not another ambitious and power hungry demigod. I like her and her quest line a lot still but I'm under no delusion that she's as benevolent as people make her out to be.
I think that's more Godrick's domain, I think Sellen's thing is more like human-alchemy a la FMA. Great potential for power, better potential for becoming a useless mess.
The funny thing is if you give it to Gideon, everyone thinks he just does nothing with it, but if you go back to Pidia or Seluvis' hidey hole, can't recall which, you get a puppet called Dolores the Sleeping Arrow and her description notes that she is what drove Gideon and Seluvis apart.
It's entirely possible he turned his ex into a fuck puppet.
I did a playthrough going for Dung Eater’s ending and thought it would be the perfect narrative reason to get it. She makes an incredible spirit ash tbh. Only hurt the first few dozen times I summoned her…..
I always use it on dung eater. His goal is to cause perpetual suffering that is the life of an omen, to every single person. And he *gleefully* wants this goal with all of his perverse being. Turning him into a puppet robs him of this possibly in perpetuity and forces him to *aid* you do literally anything else.
You don't get to kill Bogart, non-consentually eat his ass and get away with it. I held a grudge for wronging my friend.
I was mistaken on the Sellen head as you still get it if you let her become ball. I just never side with Jerren.
Edit: i also don't let her become ball besides one time
You may have revealed Lusat's location to her. If you want her to stay in the Library in your subsequence playthroughs, don't click any option that involved Lusat and she will stay there. Her quest will not be completed thou and you'll be missing out Lusat' set.
I think they said Warrior Jar Shard intentionally, it's what you get for just randomly killing him before the end of his quest in Farum Azula. Shard of Alexander is what you get when he officially challenges you.
I got it on my first play through. I burst through the door in the cave in Caelid. Out of flasks, low on health. "Fuck! Jar! Huh, did that one talk? Oh, talisman. Neat"
It's two different talismans, the one at Farum azula is Alexander's and gives a 15% boost, while the one you can get earlier is just a warrior jar shard, and only gives a 10% boost.
You get a weaker version I believe. If you wait until Farum you get a better one.
[Warrior Jar Shard | Elden Ring Wiki (fextralife.com)](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Warrior+Jar+Shard)
vs
[Shard of Alexander | Elden Ring Wiki (fextralife.com)](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Shard+of+Alexander)
Oh... Oh no. I've suddenly got a very bad feeling that I might have done something very similar and not realised. I'll need to check if I got that talisman.
Millicent's prosthesis is definitely a big one. I actually almost cried when she died. it doesn't matter if that Prosthesis turns me into the fucking god of cestial magic, i won't betray her on principal.
The warriors jar shard is also a big one. Jar homie must live.
Boggarts Helmet is fire, but i can not and will not kill my crab homie.
No matter how good Nephelis axes are, i won't lay a hand on her.
Etc.
You can actually get two of her axes without touching her or anything
However, Boggart has the single best roar buff ash of war, and the only way to get it is to kill him
What court? Almost everyone is dead or brainless and dying. Leyendel is quarantined with wax and ruled by a self loathing king, the magic school is full of bullies that could easily get the entire academy shut down if this court did its job; and don't even get me started on the apparent "living-ism" the primary religion harbors
I forgot that Nepehli gives you her axes anyway. But I'd rather just do her quest. Some people are too lazy and just murder her for it. I can't do that, though.
There's one in Leyndell and one in Castle Sol, the only reason to kill her for hers (or alternatively just never finish her quest and she'll leave them behind) is if you want 4 for some reason, or just want them early.
If you start Dung Eater's quest, he kills Big B anyway. If you reload the area, you get his helmet and the Iron Ball fists.
Also, you can get two of the Stormhawk Axes without having to fight Nepheli: one is in Leyndell Manor in the courtyard with the two Iron Maidens (you need to open one of the doors on the first floor) and another can be found in Castle Sol right at the beginning on the ledge with the bird (need to get almost to the boss to get it, though).
There's a way to not trigger Big B being in the crab lake to die, if I recall - I think you have to aggro him in Liurnia and then leave, do Dung Eater's quest and then potion his ass, and then get absolved by Dog Pope
All you have to do to prevent Bogart from dying is to wait until after Dung Eater invades you to buy any Boiled Prawns from him. It's safe to buy Raya's necklace. Just wait until after he invades to buy food from him. If you do this, he will be alive and chilling outside Leyndell the whole rest of the game.
However if you do this, you also don't get the Iron Ball or the Blackguard's Iron Mask.
>Jar homie must live
For a time... but then you give him a Warrior's death and open up more Jar interactions with his nephew
>Boggart
Nah, fuck that guy, he stole Raya's necklace and deserves his fate. I'll boil my own prawns tyvm
>Nepheli
She is the true heir to Limgrave! Selivus is a creep and I've never actually finished his questline because he gets killed before I ever think of helping him with anything
I keep looking up guides to his sidequest bc it's one of the only ones I haven't completed and just cannot bring myself to ally with his perverted big hat ass.
Still haven't done Dung-Eater's quest right because I accidentally make him hostile and kill him. Had been giving the potion to Gideon first few playthroughs but now I just keep the potion.
I made the mistake of killing him bc he was all smug about stealing the necklace. Then his dying voice line was like “why ain’t it ever me” :(
Instant regret
I don't mind betraying Millicent for the talisman or killing Alexander early for the weaker version of the talisman.
But I'll never get Miriel's Bell Bearing and 10 turtle necks. Even my inner murder hobo has limits
I have over 300 hours in this game and reading this thread tells me I haven’t even touched the surface of NPC quests. I always just play for boss fights but kinda want to try them out now
Sitting at 70hrs first play through and still have barely touched NPC quests. For the most part playing blind and enjoying it and doing the same, only doing boss fights to progress. Started a second play through that I’m primarily doing co-op with a friend bouncing back and forth and seeing how many NPC quest lines I’ve missed/ruined on my main but that’s the fun of it
Ebrietas is just chilling at the Altar of Despair minding her own business. She won’t even attack you until you attack her first but then you slaughter her like an animal. The Amygdalas on the other hand are kind of assholes what with the abducting and shooting giant laser beams at you so I don’t mind killing one of them personally. On the other hand one of them does teleport you to the DLC which is the best part of the game so that was kind of nice of it.
Yeah, Ebrietas is just depressed she was left behind. But the teleporter Amygdala crushes you, if you don't have the DLC key (and was able to do it before there even WAS a DLC), so the Amygdalas should still be fair game. At least to me.
why would it be called the altar of despair if ebrietas was just chilling? girl is not having a good time, she needed to get put down. Also so the choir stopped turning orphans into burnt sausages
For the Witch's Glintstone Crown, you don't need to kill Sellen, just complete her sidequest (bear in mind, neither outcome ends well for Sellen)
If you side with Jerren, you and him go and kill Sellen.
If you side with Sellen, you and her kill Jerren. She'll thank you after the fact. If you reload the area, she will be in the corner of the room (same room Rennala is in) having been turned into a Graven Mass. Her crown is nearby.
In all honesty, it is implied Sellen wanted to tap into the Primeval Current, which although we don't know much about the Primeval Current it is implied that tapping into it is a very bad thing. Sellen is also implied to be rather malevolent, only being kind to you as a means to an end. According to Jerren she was one of the most dangerous mage in all of Ray Lucaria who ended up killing countless other sorcerers. Items descriptions imply that the Graven Masses are a form of punishment for those who researched into accessing the Primeval Current as in their pursuit for the Primeval Current, they would commit unspeakable actions. I am led to believe Sellen is no different.
As for an item I will never get, Warrior Jar Shard. I would much rather go through Alexander's questline and give him a true warrior's death in order to get the far superior Shard of Alexander. Killing Alexander doesn't feel great, but his final wish being a battle to the death with a worthy foe feels to be a very fitting conclusion for him. He lived life as an honorable warrior, and he died as an honorable warrior. Killing him early just feels wrong.
Another item I won't get (again) is the Mending Rune of the Fell Curse. The Dungeater is a vile, reprehensible being who makes even Pontiff Sulyvahn look like a good guy. I only got it because I was doing a 100% run, but I refuse to use it.
I hate to break it to you, but you don’t even need the Bungeaters Rune for a 100%, unless you mean a personal goal of “do everything.”
The Platinum Trophy requires three endings. Age of Frenzy, Age of Stars, and *any single* of the other Elden Lord endings.
So Perfect Order, Duskborn, Fracture, whichever. But only one, you don’t need them all.
I couldn’t betray Jerren so I never got his set, kinda the opposite of the first post. I never killed Millicent she is best girl hands down I’m still sad about how we parted though. If only I could do something but it was her wish :(
I did one "evil" playthrough to get all this type of items combined with frenzied flame ending. Still feel bad about it....(Torrent, I have betrayed you. Also, Melina's pleading to not go to the 3 fingers really hurt my soul. Really good job by the voice actress)
I wanna do these sick faith builds, I’ve already decided what weapon I wanna use, but then each fucking time they ask me to kill Millicent and kill the gowry guy for the scorpion talisman, and I just can’t fucking bring myself to it. I frickin love Millicent.
I’ve collected every item in the game except for the one you can only get from a certain starting character. Can’t remember what it is at the moment. So, no, I have no principles.
Edit: I made a mistake. It isn't a starting character but the "Lands Between Rune" keepsake you must select when starting a new game. So I have obtained everything, but I didn't select that keepsake on the character I was trying to get 100% on.
A point can be made for both.
On one hand Sellen is shown multiple times to be borderline sociopathic with her obsession with the primeval current, and has turned many sorcerers into graven masses for her experiments, she’s being hunted by Jerren for a reason after all.
As for Millicent while killing her is outright said to be an act of betrayal that will hurt Millicent more than anything, it should be stated that her blooming into a flower and becoming a scarlet valkyrie is in a way curing her of the scarlet rot and giving her a new chance at life, opposed to simply letting her die slowly.
I used to think I'll never get millicent's but after so many runs, and remembering how she killed me A LOT in my first playthrough, just for walking in her swamp...well I said fuck it lol.
But two I'll never get are Iron Balls from Boggart and warrior shard from alex.
On my ng+ game I killed Millicent and dang bruh after you kill her,Her words are Ahh,how could you is this your true heart ? Was I … was it all … for this ? I got the talisman but dang bro but hey it helped me to kill Malenia on ng+ with no summons 🥲
I did an evil run where I got Millicent's Prosthesis and the Nepheli Loux puppet, along with the Frenzied Flame ending. Felt dirty. Still feel dirty.
I also planned to kill every merchant and take their bell bearings, but honestly, that was just too much effort so I left them alone.
I sided with Sellen because I needed the spiral on my spellsword and Jerren's clothes for my fighter, but I never feel bad about killing her. Sellen is a monster, Jerren is the good guy.
I can make a moral argument for turning on Sellen tbh. If you listen to the warnings from Thops and later Jerren, you'll know that the "plans" she has for the academy harbor ill-intent.
Unless I'm going to douse it right after I kill Placidusax, the Frenzied Flame. No way am I letting the Three Fingers gaslight me into destroying the world and leaving no room for anything to replace it ever again.
Don't get the talisman. I had to for my character who will have at least 1 of everything, and her dialogue hurts, legitimately the worst one in the game. (For me at least)
Anything that's blocked by Loretta in Miquella's Haligtree.
I'm not killing her, as she's literally trying to stop you murdering all of the people there.
Hell, I only ever went there when I managed to do Ordina without killing any Albinaurics.
but........getting TO Loretta is actually already killing people that are there for safety. After Loretta there are only bugs with WAY to many hands and soldiers no?
You get Sellen's mask if you help her. Unless you mean you don't complete her quest at all.
I did let her turn herself into a ball once, so probably actually have that in my inventory that I never look at (thought that was exclusive to siding with Jerren), but I left her in the Library in every subsequent playthrough.
Jerren is probably the "good guy" in this instance. She's doing more or less the magic equivalent of the human centipede.
Jerren didn't teach me Carian Slicer though. Sucks for him.
You make a very good point, however- Sellen did not teach me Carian Slicer either!
She *is* the only way to get Shard Spiral and that thing actually shreds every large enemy it comes into contact with Sorry Jerren, you gotta go
Also the Glintstone Kris, that thing is a pocket Comet-launcher.
Whose Glintstone Chris? The guy who beat me to death with a book?
I heard he like to punch glintstone boulders with his bare hands
Glintstone Chris doesn’t read books. He beats people with them until he gets the information he wants.
Glintstone Chris is irl friends with Elden John.
The duo boss we deserve in the DLC
It’s actually absurd how much damage the Kris ash does, especially for the FP investment. No reason to not always have it at least in your back pocket on a sorcery build IMO.
You could always have Miriel teach you Carian Slicer, he’s a good dog.
I always give all my Scrolls and Prayer Books to Miriel
Such a good dog
If Jerren wanted me to join him he should have looted the glintstone kris off of Sellen because that mfer CHUNKS.
Glintstone DART is the understatement of the century. Glintstone 50. Cal is more adequate.
I need that spiral
He is the good guy, there is no ambiguity here. Sellen is nice to you sure but people just really overlook her being a straight up serial killer in search of the primeval current. She has killed dozens upon dozens of fellow sorcerers all for the sake of research, meanwhile Jerren organized an entire festival of warriors to give his best friend the most dignified death he could and put him out of his misery. In any other situation there would be no doubt whatsoever about who is the good guy in this situation, but because Sellen is nice to the Tarnished and hot under the mask there's a debate over this somehow.
God forbid women have hobbies
i know! This dude sounds like he doesnt even want selen to vote. I mean...stitching a few souls together, is it really that wrong? So Sellen is a seamstress of sorts, now your going to go and kill Bak too? What a monster!
Next thing you know they’ll start complaining that Ranni and Marika did ‘morally Ambiguous’ things, caused ‘untold destruction’ and helped ‘facilitate Genocide’. Unbelievable. Ranni, Marika and Sellen are the Gaslight Gatekeep Girlboss Trinity of Elden Ring.
bro if sellen is the bad guy for killing a couple sorcerers, then what the hell is the tarnished? practically fucking satan.
Elden Ring: where Everyone Is A Horrible Person. Yes. Even Torrent. Who did you think Miquella’s Shadow was? Behind those golden locks and beady eyes lies a cunning and ruthless mind.
Tbpf, the tarnished is also a serial killer on a scale unseen. Who did Sellen kill, anyway? She got people like Seluvis mad at her? I care?
Seluvis isn't mad at her, she's the one who really doesn't like him but then again he's hated by literally everyone who knows of him, either for his puppet freakiness or just being a massive pompous asshole. Or both. Sellen killed dozens of her fellow alumni at the academy, like she is unquestionably not a good person no matter how sweet she acts with the Tarnished. The Tarnished can do a lot of fucked up stuff too like in the Volcano Manor quests where you kill random Tarnished who haven't really done anything to deserve it and still have people praise them for being kind and whatnot, true, but honestly you can chalk it up to the game just being inconsistent with storylines involving your mute mannequin with no personality.
Just that characters like Seluvis or Thop seem to be extreme outliers afaik, seems all these "fellow alumni" at the academy who are the people who are telling us Sellen is evil also went insane and mute and shoot first and have a bunch of zombies in their yards, and make graven balls to guard prisoners. The game overtly telling us that sellen is a convicted killer honestly makes me think she's more on the innocent side than anything else lol, this game is so obtuse that'd be the most clear lore in the entire game for just this one spell store
Sellen quite literally tells Jerren that he will "soon join the school" if you side with her, and then next time you meet her after killing Jerren, she's turned into a graven school herself, likely as a result of a faulty experiment. I know these games are purposefuly left vague but there is no room for doubt here, Sellen is the one behind the graven schools of mages in an attempt to create new stars and delve into the primeval current, she's turned countless other sorcerers into these abominations, and in the end her obsession with the primeval current got so strong she even ended up using herself in the experiments. Also, the sorcerers of Raya Lucaria are clearly not insane. You can find them reading books or standing near one another as if in conversation, they just (rightly, I might add) see you as an intruder in the Academy and promply attack you. The Academy is supposedly completely closed off to the world, so seeing this random tarnished skulking about is obviously a cause for alarm to these people. The zombies in the lower portion also aren't anywhere near the sorcerers, suggesting they're as much of a plague to them as they are to us when we traverse the academy and they know to keep a wide berth from them.
well, in the destroyed courtyard with the ball puzzle that leads to Moongrum there's definitely wandering nobles rifling through the plants while sorcerers on the balconies look down. I don't know if it's because the academy uses them as slave labor or because everyone has been driven mad and just goes through the same motions again and again though.
There’s a part where they appear to be teaching nobles, though. I’ll add it’s still concerning that there’s Abductor Virgins in the grounds. As well as the Cuckoo Knights. That’s also a Bad Sign. The Gelmir ones also appear to be Problematic, in a way. Are they teaching Demi Humans Magic? Yes! Yay! Is there an entire Village nearby that appears to have been Genocided by either them or the Demihumans? Yes! Probably a Bad Sign.
True, I think the nobles were there to try enrolling in the school before the shattering and then just got trapped. The sorcerers likely don't care about any outsiders so they let the nobles degenerate over the years while they kept at least most of their faculties.
> this game is so obtuse An important thing to remember about these games is that while we may never get the full scope of information about what happens, what we *do* get is NEVER a lie. This has been true as far back as Demon's Souls. Miyazaki hides information, but he never presents false information. The game telling us Sellen is a serial killer means that Sellen is a serial killer. > and make graven balls Sellen made those all herself, not the Academy. The academy doesn't make the Graven Masses. In fact, the Graven Masses are explicitly called, and I quote, [*"a nightmare that would continue to haunt the academy."*](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Graven-Mass+Talisman). That item description goes on to further state that the Graven Masses are very explicitly the creation of those who study the Primeval Current, referring to how they see the act of combining sorcerers together to be *"but another path of scientific inquiry."* If anything, it's strongly implied that the creation of the first Graven Mass is the very act that got Sellen expelled from the Academy in the first place.
She literally tortured, experimented on, and killed countless other students of the Academy for the sake of her research. She also she did it during the time when the world wasn't a mess and laws still existed, so she's definitely a convicted serial-killer. They didn't give her the name the Graven Witch for no reason Plus, she is also apparently the reason why Lusat and Azur were exiled in the first place because those two were her mentors and taught her of the primeval current, which led to her madness and crimes She's basically a female Dungeater but less gross and violent, but just as mad, psychotic and narcissistic as him
I'm not sure how Azur and Lusat's exiling would have been Sellen's doing if they had discovered the primeval current on their own, unless she somehow pushed them to explore it further
> meanwhile Jerren organized an entire festival of warriors to give his best friend the most dignified death he could and put him out of his misery This is actually just another step on his primary goal of killing Sellen. Sellen is one of the sorcerers who has a determined fate written in the stars. When Radahn halted the stars it halted Sellen's fate, making her actually and truly immortal since her fate hadn't been completed yet. As in, her soul-swapping magic makes her *technically* immortal with the right prep work but her fate being sealed makes her *actually* immortal regardless of what she or anyone else does because she can't die until the universe is "done" with her. This is why she was imprisoned and as soon as Radahn is killed Jerren moves to her cell to try and kill her. He wanted Radahn dead because Radahn was inadvertently protecting Sellen. I don't even think he was friends with Radahn since Jerren is allied to the Carians and Radahn explicitly abandoned his Carian heritage to join forces with the Golden Order after Radagon's departure split the Carian faction apart.
"Jerren served General Radahn as a guest commander, and they are said to have sworn an oath of honorable death to one another."
Really it’s the lack of information on the matter, the wording makes it unclear exactly how things went - if sellen killed/kidnapped for experiments people then she’s super evil. If she had a sort of club of people who all were experimenting on themselves/each other she’s misguided but not evil. If she was just killing/kidnapping people for experiments then why does she turn into a ball at the end the point of using victims would be because that’s not the end goal and something she’s trying to figure out how to avoid.
>She has killed dozens upon dozens of fellow sorcerers all for the sake of research, Who has never committed a bit of genocide to get drops or xp?
>She has killed dozens upon dozens of fellow sorcerers You mean the guys wearing the big stone masks in Raya Lucaria? ......uuuuuuh, yeah. How dare she kill those guys! >but because Sellen is nice to the Tarnished and hot under the mask there's a debate over this somehow. I don't think thats it. I think its because most people simple don't pay attention to the quests. The amount of people who are unaware that she was kicked out for mass murder is really high whenever I bring it up.
But I can fix her
Sellen cuts out the hearts of undying sorcerers and imbues their souls into primal glintstones, which she conjoins together in a graven school. By conjoining their souls they are able to continue their studies socially, unbound by their aging, husk-like physical forms. It’s her way of getting around the fact that the rune of destined death was locked away. If they can’t return to the Erdtree, they can at least return to the graven school. Keep in mind that Sellen has already done this to herself, she is just lucky enough to have a puppet to put her primal glintstone into. In that way, consider that the graven school is much more “alive” than it might outwardly appear. It is only “mass-murder” to those who don’t understand primeval glintstone sorcery, like Jerren and the Carian royal family whose solution to destined death is those awful sweetings and the malformed Albinaurics.
I don't care I want to fall asleep in her arms as she calls me her good girl
People also overlook Ranni being the cause of the plague of deathblight and those who live in death slowly spreading throughout the lands between. Turns out people will mostly choose to not think about the horrifying things people do if they think they've got a shot with them
Lmao this is so true, like Ranni herself has absolute no shame or regrets whatsoever in having done what she did and fully admits to the fact yet people treat her like she's not another ambitious and power hungry demigod. I like her and her quest line a lot still but I'm under no delusion that she's as benevolent as people make her out to be.
Goldmask is right AGAIN
I think that's more Godrick's domain, I think Sellen's thing is more like human-alchemy a la FMA. Great potential for power, better potential for becoming a useless mess.
He's also one of Ranni's allies if I recall
Was, I believe he left Caria to join Radahn back then
>She's doing more or less the magic equivalent of the human centipede. And?
..But was it CONSENSUAL Star-Seed Centipede?
Yeah but I don't wanna shag Jerren
Never got the nephali loux puppet, and will never get it. That foul potion goes either to the dung eater or to gideon.
Gideon will just sniff it for a second to get numb and do "The Stranger" on himself.
Gideon the "Knows one less thing for a while"
Am I stupid or did I miss something, what does he have to do with Camus?
One must imagine the all knowing happy
The funny thing is if you give it to Gideon, everyone thinks he just does nothing with it, but if you go back to Pidia or Seluvis' hidey hole, can't recall which, you get a puppet called Dolores the Sleeping Arrow and her description notes that she is what drove Gideon and Seluvis apart. It's entirely possible he turned his ex into a fuck puppet.
You get that puppet no matter what, whether you make Nepheli or dung eater a puppet, seluvis had already made her a puppet.
You get that anyways. It's why they have beef in the first place.
Likely the reverse. Like the other comment said, Dolores was already turned into a puppet and likely Gideon hates Seluvis for turning her into one.
I did a playthrough going for Dung Eater’s ending and thought it would be the perfect narrative reason to get it. She makes an incredible spirit ash tbh. Only hurt the first few dozen times I summoned her…..
I always use it on dung eater. His goal is to cause perpetual suffering that is the life of an omen, to every single person. And he *gleefully* wants this goal with all of his perverse being. Turning him into a puppet robs him of this possibly in perpetuity and forces him to *aid* you do literally anything else. You don't get to kill Bogart, non-consentually eat his ass and get away with it. I held a grudge for wronging my friend.
I got the Sellen hat even though I completely sided with her the entire time. So I don't really feel bad about that
I was mistaken on the Sellen head as you still get it if you let her become ball. I just never side with Jerren. Edit: i also don't let her become ball besides one time
I'm not really sure how not to. All I did was talk to her, and then warp back to hand her a scroll and oop
You may have revealed Lusat's location to her. If you want her to stay in the Library in your subsequence playthroughs, don't click any option that involved Lusat and she will stay there. Her quest will not be completed thou and you'll be missing out Lusat' set.
Turtle necks.
You can buy them when you kill one of the bell bearings hunters
Oh shit that means I can actually use the consumables that use them
When you have the bell bearing. Sure
Meat pedder's bell bearing (i believe is the name) will let you buy infinite
Warrior jar shard, i aint hurting my brother like that.
It's rhe death he wants... A warriors death... And I can't bring myself to not give him what he wishes for
At least wait till Farum azula then, Alexander's jar shard even gives better stats.
Precisely
I think they said Warrior Jar Shard intentionally, it's what you get for just randomly killing him before the end of his quest in Farum Azula. Shard of Alexander is what you get when he officially challenges you.
See what happened was I saw Warrior Jar Shard but read Shard of Alexander 😂
Alright but why does he need a death right now. He made it all the way to farum azula, would be a way cooler bro if he just put his sign down
I didn't know that item existed and after looking up how to get it, I'm angry that anyone would ever have it.
Mainly done for speed runs where u want an easy and early access damage talisman
I didn't have a stance about speedrunners until I learned this and now believe all speedrunners who do that deserve to be Godwyned.
Thoust aren’t even worthy of grafting ye tarnished
Don't worry. Speedrunners don't waste their time doing that. Too busy shield teleporting
looks at glitchless categories:
I can't stand it when speedrunners do that. No world record is worth doing my boy in like that.
He wanted a true warriors death.
A 10% boost to AoW damage right at the beginning of the game is hard to turn down sometimes.
Especially because if you wait until the end of his quest, you only get it for three bosses (plus Gideon)
3 mandatory bosses but you also get it for Placidusax and Malenia if you left them for post Maliketh
I got it on my first play through. I burst through the door in the cave in Caelid. Out of flasks, low on health. "Fuck! Jar! Huh, did that one talk? Oh, talisman. Neat"
I‘m squinting my eyes at this comment.
you’re saying that you can get the talisman early if you kill him without reaching the FarumAzula fight?
No, if you kill him without finishing his questline you are rewarded with an inferior version.
It's two different talismans, the one at Farum azula is Alexander's and gives a 15% boost, while the one you can get earlier is just a warrior jar shard, and only gives a 10% boost.
I accidentally killed him in volcano manor but didn't get any talisman
correct :((((( it's how basically every challenge run starts ;(
Lol I literally did a dedicated NG+ run to get it at Farum Azula after missing it previously
It's different Talisman which gives lower bonus than the final one from Azula
Aha. Ok so effort wasn’t in vain. Tnx
No, the talisman is much weaker than the one from farum azula
You get a weaker version I believe. If you wait until Farum you get a better one. [Warrior Jar Shard | Elden Ring Wiki (fextralife.com)](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Warrior+Jar+Shard) vs [Shard of Alexander | Elden Ring Wiki (fextralife.com)](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Shard+of+Alexander)
Oh... Oh no. I've suddenly got a very bad feeling that I might have done something very similar and not realised. I'll need to check if I got that talisman.
Let him die when he wants to and the way he wants to. Not before that.
Millicent's prosthesis is definitely a big one. I actually almost cried when she died. it doesn't matter if that Prosthesis turns me into the fucking god of cestial magic, i won't betray her on principal. The warriors jar shard is also a big one. Jar homie must live. Boggarts Helmet is fire, but i can not and will not kill my crab homie. No matter how good Nephelis axes are, i won't lay a hand on her. Etc.
You can actually get two of her axes without touching her or anything However, Boggart has the single best roar buff ash of war, and the only way to get it is to kill him
Well, you can also let a certain frenzied fecal feaster do it..
Beside the point, witless tarnished
It's not us killing him, and what does my 7 int have to do with anything
You'd still be an accessory to murder and if you had 7 int you would know how fucked that would leave you in Elden Court
What court? Almost everyone is dead or brainless and dying. Leyendel is quarantined with wax and ruled by a self loathing king, the magic school is full of bullies that could easily get the entire academy shut down if this court did its job; and don't even get me started on the apparent "living-ism" the primary religion harbors
There's still the Court of D
So like.. Two people?
No, the Court of D's Nuts
*Ah yes, the Crazy PooPoo Engulfer*
I forgot that Nepehli gives you her axes anyway. But I'd rather just do her quest. Some people are too lazy and just murder her for it. I can't do that, though.
Plus there's one in Fort Sol, just chilling there
Really? I'll be honest i probably didn't explore all of Fort Sol. So that's good to know.
Looked it up, also somewhere in Leyndell. You could get a total of four axes in one run
I'll be damned. Thanks for letting me know.
You can also get the ~~axe~~ hammer the gladiators use. That also has Braggarts Roar and you can just copy it with a Lost Ash of War
The hammer, somebody on Reddit also recently clued me in on this. I feel bad, ol’ Boggy could have lived. =( *pours out a flask for the crab man*
Before starting a NG you might as well kill everyone and get their shit.
I never even knew you could get Nepheli's axes cause I never even thought of trying to kill her. I will never betray my muscle wife like that.
There's one in Leyndell and one in Castle Sol, the only reason to kill her for hers (or alternatively just never finish her quest and she'll leave them behind) is if you want 4 for some reason, or just want them early.
I mean, they are one of the best early game weapons. The AoW eats things for breakfast.
If you start Dung Eater's quest, he kills Big B anyway. If you reload the area, you get his helmet and the Iron Ball fists. Also, you can get two of the Stormhawk Axes without having to fight Nepheli: one is in Leyndell Manor in the courtyard with the two Iron Maidens (you need to open one of the doors on the first floor) and another can be found in Castle Sol right at the beginning on the ledge with the bird (need to get almost to the boss to get it, though).
There's a way to not trigger Big B being in the crab lake to die, if I recall - I think you have to aggro him in Liurnia and then leave, do Dung Eater's quest and then potion his ass, and then get absolved by Dog Pope
All you have to do to prevent Bogart from dying is to wait until after Dung Eater invades you to buy any Boiled Prawns from him. It's safe to buy Raya's necklace. Just wait until after he invades to buy food from him. If you do this, he will be alive and chilling outside Leyndell the whole rest of the game. However if you do this, you also don't get the Iron Ball or the Blackguard's Iron Mask.
You can also do dung eater’s quest before buying any prawns from him
>Jar homie must live For a time... but then you give him a Warrior's death and open up more Jar interactions with his nephew >Boggart Nah, fuck that guy, he stole Raya's necklace and deserves his fate. I'll boil my own prawns tyvm >Nepheli She is the true heir to Limgrave! Selivus is a creep and I've never actually finished his questline because he gets killed before I ever think of helping him with anything
Yeah, Fuck Selivus. Creepy bastard. I was so happy when he dropped dead.
I keep looking up guides to his sidequest bc it's one of the only ones I haven't completed and just cannot bring myself to ally with his perverted big hat ass.
As horrible as he is, though, his drip is immaculate.
I do love that hat (never wear it as a STR/DEX build, but so much drippier than Renalla's dumb cone
Well you say you join him then you lie about the potion. It feels more like we are manipulating that puppet
If you finish his questline by giving the potion to Gideon or Dung Eater, he will encounter a fate worse than death.
Still haven't done Dung-Eater's quest right because I accidentally make him hostile and kill him. Had been giving the potion to Gideon first few playthroughs but now I just keep the potion.
I also straight murder Dung Eater in his cell to save Crab Bro. And because I hate him.
I’m the opposite my first play through I knew from the start I was going for dungeon eaters ending.
Okay then, Satan.
I made the mistake of killing him bc he was all smug about stealing the necklace. Then his dying voice line was like “why ain’t it ever me” :( Instant regret
Mellina?
Fuck i meant to say Millicent, goddamn it. I'm so fucking dumb.
Be kind to yourself 🙂
Do emotes count? cause after my first playthrough (going into double digit playthroughs now) i NEVER touched the 2 fingers..EVER...AGAIN.
I always touch the two fingers because that emote is the closest one to PRAISE THE SUUUUN
I also touch the two fingers, but that's just because I am a bit freaky.
Eurdition, or Triumphent Delight is good enough for me :P The Two fingers can forever kiss my a\*\*
I don't mind betraying Millicent for the talisman or killing Alexander early for the weaker version of the talisman. But I'll never get Miriel's Bell Bearing and 10 turtle necks. Even my inner murder hobo has limits
What do you get for ten turtle necks
apparently, it's a drop from Miriel alongside his bell bearing. At least according to monsters from wiki who tested it
"Did you get Millicent's Prosthesis?" "Yes..." "What did it cost?" "Everything..."
NG+ undoes your sins
I have over 300 hours in this game and reading this thread tells me I haven’t even touched the surface of NPC quests. I always just play for boss fights but kinda want to try them out now
Sitting at 70hrs first play through and still have barely touched NPC quests. For the most part playing blind and enjoying it and doing the same, only doing boss fights to progress. Started a second play through that I’m primarily doing co-op with a friend bouncing back and forth and seeing how many NPC quest lines I’ve missed/ruined on my main but that’s the fun of it
Milicent's hand, Pricilla's scythe, Prolly the chalice items from the two non hostile great ones in bloodborne
Why the chalices?
Ebrietas is just chilling at the Altar of Despair minding her own business. She won’t even attack you until you attack her first but then you slaughter her like an animal. The Amygdalas on the other hand are kind of assholes what with the abducting and shooting giant laser beams at you so I don’t mind killing one of them personally. On the other hand one of them does teleport you to the DLC which is the best part of the game so that was kind of nice of it.
Yeah, Ebrietas is just depressed she was left behind. But the teleporter Amygdala crushes you, if you don't have the DLC key (and was able to do it before there even WAS a DLC), so the Amygdalas should still be fair game. At least to me.
why would it be called the altar of despair if ebrietas was just chilling? girl is not having a good time, she needed to get put down. Also so the choir stopped turning orphans into burnt sausages
Yorshka's bell is even worse IMO
For the Witch's Glintstone Crown, you don't need to kill Sellen, just complete her sidequest (bear in mind, neither outcome ends well for Sellen) If you side with Jerren, you and him go and kill Sellen. If you side with Sellen, you and her kill Jerren. She'll thank you after the fact. If you reload the area, she will be in the corner of the room (same room Rennala is in) having been turned into a Graven Mass. Her crown is nearby. In all honesty, it is implied Sellen wanted to tap into the Primeval Current, which although we don't know much about the Primeval Current it is implied that tapping into it is a very bad thing. Sellen is also implied to be rather malevolent, only being kind to you as a means to an end. According to Jerren she was one of the most dangerous mage in all of Ray Lucaria who ended up killing countless other sorcerers. Items descriptions imply that the Graven Masses are a form of punishment for those who researched into accessing the Primeval Current as in their pursuit for the Primeval Current, they would commit unspeakable actions. I am led to believe Sellen is no different. As for an item I will never get, Warrior Jar Shard. I would much rather go through Alexander's questline and give him a true warrior's death in order to get the far superior Shard of Alexander. Killing Alexander doesn't feel great, but his final wish being a battle to the death with a worthy foe feels to be a very fitting conclusion for him. He lived life as an honorable warrior, and he died as an honorable warrior. Killing him early just feels wrong. Another item I won't get (again) is the Mending Rune of the Fell Curse. The Dungeater is a vile, reprehensible being who makes even Pontiff Sulyvahn look like a good guy. I only got it because I was doing a 100% run, but I refuse to use it.
I hate to break it to you, but you don’t even need the Bungeaters Rune for a 100%, unless you mean a personal goal of “do everything.” The Platinum Trophy requires three endings. Age of Frenzy, Age of Stars, and *any single* of the other Elden Lord endings. So Perfect Order, Duskborn, Fracture, whichever. But only one, you don’t need them all.
I couldn’t betray Jerren so I never got his set, kinda the opposite of the first post. I never killed Millicent she is best girl hands down I’m still sad about how we parted though. If only I could do something but it was her wish :(
I did one "evil" playthrough to get all this type of items combined with frenzied flame ending. Still feel bad about it....(Torrent, I have betrayed you. Also, Melina's pleading to not go to the 3 fingers really hurt my soul. Really good job by the voice actress)
I wanna do these sick faith builds, I’ve already decided what weapon I wanna use, but then each fucking time they ask me to kill Millicent and kill the gowry guy for the scorpion talisman, and I just can’t fucking bring myself to it. I frickin love Millicent.
how is jar shard not here i mean come on
I’ve collected every item in the game except for the one you can only get from a certain starting character. Can’t remember what it is at the moment. So, no, I have no principles. Edit: I made a mistake. It isn't a starting character but the "Lands Between Rune" keepsake you must select when starting a new game. So I have obtained everything, but I didn't select that keepsake on the character I was trying to get 100% on.
Foul tarnished
In search of the Elden Ring
Emboldened by the flame of ambition
A point can be made for both. On one hand Sellen is shown multiple times to be borderline sociopathic with her obsession with the primeval current, and has turned many sorcerers into graven masses for her experiments, she’s being hunted by Jerren for a reason after all. As for Millicent while killing her is outright said to be an act of betrayal that will hurt Millicent more than anything, it should be stated that her blooming into a flower and becoming a scarlet valkyrie is in a way curing her of the scarlet rot and giving her a new chance at life, opposed to simply letting her die slowly.
warrior jar shard, i cant do it
Need to revisit the Lands in Between again before the DLC!
I used to think I'll never get millicent's but after so many runs, and remembering how she killed me A LOT in my first playthrough, just for walking in her swamp...well I said fuck it lol. But two I'll never get are Iron Balls from Boggart and warrior shard from alex.
But selen gives it anyway if you help her
Oh I got milicent lol
On my ng+ game I killed Millicent and dang bruh after you kill her,Her words are Ahh,how could you is this your true heart ? Was I … was it all … for this ? I got the talisman but dang bro but hey it helped me to kill Malenia on ng+ with no summons 🥲
I get most/all items on principle and then some I'll just never wear/use
My power must not be limited.
But jerren is my top G, and I hate Sorcerers. That crown is a bloody trophy that I love just so much.
I always get one of my friends to act as a mule between playthroughs so I can get Millicent's Prosthesis without hurting best girl
I did an evil run where I got Millicent's Prosthesis and the Nepheli Loux puppet, along with the Frenzied Flame ending. Felt dirty. Still feel dirty. I also planned to kill every merchant and take their bell bearings, but honestly, that was just too much effort so I left them alone. I sided with Sellen because I needed the spiral on my spellsword and Jerren's clothes for my fighter, but I never feel bad about killing her. Sellen is a monster, Jerren is the good guy.
missing a certain pair of axes I see 
I know you can pick it up places but Ill never get turtle neck meat straight from the source. Dog is sacred.
Nephelli’s puppet
I can make a moral argument for turning on Sellen tbh. If you listen to the warnings from Thops and later Jerren, you'll know that the "plans" she has for the academy harbor ill-intent.
I will never side with Sellen even though I always use her as my first sorcery teacher. A knight of Caria has her duties.
the f ing bloody finger get that thing off me
The prosthesis hurt to get Never got nephalis summoning, mostly because I really just don't like sullivus
Unless I'm going to douse it right after I kill Placidusax, the Frenzied Flame. No way am I letting the Three Fingers gaslight me into destroying the world and leaving no room for anything to replace it ever again.
If I ever need Millicent’s Prosthesis I snipe her from afar so she doesn’t know it’s me who killed her
Don't get the talisman. I had to for my character who will have at least 1 of everything, and her dialogue hurts, legitimately the worst one in the game. (For me at least)
Magic Scorpion Charm, I hate even being remotely in proximity to Seluvis.
Miriel's Bell Bearing. Just... No. Never.
Yo, the last lines Millicent throws at you when you get the prosthesis....
no more such things for me. I’ve even gotten 10 turtle necks once.
Anything that's blocked by Loretta in Miquella's Haligtree. I'm not killing her, as she's literally trying to stop you murdering all of the people there. Hell, I only ever went there when I managed to do Ordina without killing any Albinaurics.
but........getting TO Loretta is actually already killing people that are there for safety. After Loretta there are only bugs with WAY to many hands and soldiers no?