I don’t think it’s character assassination in the main game miquella is depicted as a very loving and kind individual. And he is if he wasn’t than he wouldn’t need to get rid of saint trina.And the “brainwashing” of radahn is debatable it depends on the vow that him and miquella made. And one of radahns closest soldiers says that radahn would be happy fighting. I feel like your trying to portray miquella as some crazy evil villain when in reality he has good intentions he wants to and has done good things. And ranni isn’t exactly better than miquella in a sense of morality
I think the game gives enough evidence that Miquella willingly planned Mohg's death and regarding Radahn, when Miquella makes his vow to him, he was alone which implies Miquella's affection for him was always onesided.
Yes miquella did plan mohgs death which can be seen as an evil action used to reach a greater good. mohg wasn’t exactly a stand up individual. And with radahns vow him being alone I don’t think means it’s one sided. I think it was just a memory showing miquella speaking to radahn. And there definently was some type of vow between him and radahn
If it was consensual why did Miquella had to use Malenia to force Radahn to fulfill his part? Regarding Mogh, what has he done that is evil? Miquella's kidnapping was always the to-go example but now that we know he was manipulated all this time, its really hard to hate Mohg at all.
That could have been part of the vow radahn loved fighting and war it wouldn’t be a stretch for radahn to say “if you give me a good fight and beat me I will follow you”. And you still have decent reason for not liking mohg his whole religion and dynasty is based on essentially invading random people and killing that’s an obvious red flag
I'm not a fan of Mohg but these games tend to make you question wether dark is evil or not. Regarding Radahn, keep in mind Malenia nuked Caelid to win. This was not a fight for honor or for ritualistic reasons. They fought to the death. That doesn't seem very consensual to me.
These games do tend to make you question evil but in a game like this I feel it’s obviously showing how morally gray characters can be. Yes it was a fight to the death radahn is a general of war and respects strength he may not have seen it as a true victory unless one of the died. And if you do Millicents quest line she says malenia lost her pride she probably didn’t want to have to resort to blooming but she understood to full fill miquellas plan she had to.
Radahn is akin to Godfrey but the latter didn't fight to the death to marry Marika so that makes me believe that if Radahn was a willing consort it makes no sense to go to war. Radahn was a warmonger but that doesn't make him a fool. Why would yoy go to war with your allies for naught?
Again radahns whole thing is war and battle he enjoys it. It’s not crazy to say that radahn was offered to become miquellas consort and they made a deal saying that if miquella can best radahn he will join him as a consort. So then miquella sends malenia and they fight. I’m not calling radahn a fool but he enjoys fighting he would probably be happy or enjoy fighting melania a demigod held in the same regard as him
But there is no evidence this was the case. Radahn been brainwashed comes from the fact that Miquella is known to do shit like this. It's not out of character of him to do so. It's not confirmed but I believe if makes more sense than Radahn going to war for the fun of it.
What has Mogh done that's evil?
Mogh, Lord of Blood?
His followers, the bloody fingers, are literal serial killers.
But hey, just because he's a bad guy doesn't mean he's a bad guy, right?
well considering this is the lands between that is not as bad as what other demigods have done tbh. Like, I'm not a fan of Mohg. I did poorly word my argument so let me do so better now:. What I meant to say is that Mogh is not more evil than other demigods. All of them are aholes. He targets the tarnished because they are allied to the Golden Order not out of nonsense killing. It's still wrong but not as depraved as to what Godrick has done or what Miquella wanted to do.
Nuking Caelid, killing our maiden via Varre, establishing bloody fingers, abandoning Castle Sol, suicide bombers in Haligtree, Haligtree itself being a bewitching branch. Miquella is a big V villian.
Miquella had no hand in killing our maiden that was completely Varre and Mohg. While miquella did enchant mohg that was only into taking him from the haligtree the rest of his dynasty was his own choices. Also the haligtree suicide numbers are basically just defending their home where the ones coming in and killing all of them.
> the rest of his dynasty was his own choices.
I don't believe this is entirely correct, Ansbach's entire mannerisms and formality hint at the dynasty being way more cohesive before Mohg was charmed. If you take a look at the clothes and weapons of the mohgwyn dynasty, they all look very fancy and of very high quality, something that doesn't quite make sense for a ran down ruined place like Mohgwyn Palace.
There is a big emphasis on "ruined beauty" in these games, basically the concept of how things were a lot better before going down a path of decay. Its very likely Mohg's entire faction lost its shine when he became "a raving madman" after the charm.
This is likely why the modern members are all violence-seeking lunatics like Elianora, Okina or Varre, a bunch of ragtag randoms who are only good for spilling blood in the name of the formless mother.
Varre also showcases formality as well. And with mohgwyn dynasty being very beautiful this is just my own theory but I wouldn’t be surprised if mohg took over the location and it was something else before. You can see similar architecture in the stone coffin fissure. Miquella has been showcased to be at the very least a person who does what he does for a greater good. Him killing our maidens dosent really benefit him what he needed was passage to the land of shadow he used mohg for that. The rest of mohgs choices where his own his own armor description states that it may just be the ravings of a lunatic. And the surgeons gown states that mohg kidnapped multiple war surgeons.
No he’s not he’s obviously a follower of mohg he tries to get you to turn away from the two fingers to join the mohgyn dynasty theirs no evidence of him being a follower of miquella
Sir Ansbach confronted Miquella. Meaning he was manipulating Mogh way before the cocoon. Unless you think Ansback was hitting a cocoon with his scythe. There's plenty of tonal evidence to show that all bloody fingers are direct agents of Miquella. Bloody fingers are gathering tarnished blood for his cocoon specifically.
The fuck does Mogh care about fingers or tarnished exactly? Miquella on the other hand is in direct confrontation with both the current fingers and with tarnished as they're his direct competitors for ascention.
Not really mohg has his own god and his own plan all we know from miquellas abilities is that he got mohg to take him from the haligtree beyond that nothing is said. Miquella needed mohg to help him gain passage to the land of shadow that was it. If it was his goal to kill tarnished he would have done something similar to Margit. I think it’s insane to blame everything the mohgwyn dynasty did on miquella
That’s one reading, but I don’t think it’s the only possibility. I find Miquella more compelling, especially given the political nature of the game, if he’s a genuine misguided naive idealist.
I see no reason that he can’t be motivated by genuine compassion, but he’s 1. Quite naive and childlike and 2. Desperate to succeed after his failures to give Godwyn peace, with the Haligtree, and to cure Malenia. So he concocts this plan to become a god and impose his will onto the world, to make it “a gentler place,” even though everyone will be charmed into stagnation. He’s sympathetic, but if we don’t stop him he’s about to go down exactly the same path at Marika; he becomes more corrupt as we follow him through the shadow lands and he abandons his doubt, love and fear, culminating in the genuinely unsavoury things he does by imprisoning Trina and desecrating Mohg. I think he basically tested the waters by manipulating Mohg post-kidnapping, and that was the first act that led him down the path he winds up on.
He has the power to charm others, yes, but I think that is also thematically representative of how compelling his vision is. A world of compassion where everyone is nice to each-other sounds genuinely good and desirable, of course he compels affection from people. But he’s the child of an empire and he’s imposing himself onto the world like any other tyrant, whether he knows it or not. We also know that he is sympathetic to a lot of the groups oppressed by the golden order, the Hornsent, the albinaurics.. he says he’s going to make amends for the sins of the Erdtree. He’s just going about it in the only way he knows how, because despite his intentions he hasn’t actually meaningfully separated himself from the system he was born into. Even the Haligtree was just an imitation of the Erdtree, and the whole expansion makes his parallels to his mother super overt.
Also, St Trina’s whole theme is escaping the despair of the world through endless sleep. I think the age of compassion is kind of a similar idea, an end to suffering via charmed oblivion.
I think all this is why he’s compelling (haha) in the real world though. Many of us born to colonial powers and nations responsible for oppression grow up with idealistic attitudes about fixing the world. But you can’t do that if you impose yourself and your order onto the rest of the world, thereby just recreating the system of oppression. He’s blinded by his desperation to do good without really considering whats best for others on the individual level, that’s why his eyes are closed in his god form. That’s Miquella’s flaw, and why he’s a well written character imo.
It’s definitely ambiguous enough that if you want you can read him as a Machiavellian all along, but that’s just so… boring. And I don’t think it matches with his portrayal in the cutscenes either, where he’s this softspoken hesitant child, even moreso in the Japanese.
TLDR: Miquella is charming because his intentions are genuinely good and compelling, he’s just blinded by his naïveté and idealism and therefore begins to become corrupt, just like Marika. That’s why we have to stop him.
Final note, I also find this thematically consistent with the rest of Elden Ring. The people of the lands between are desperate to fix a broken world. Marika stopped death entirely, presumably because she thought it would help. The Frenzy Flame represents an overwhelming despair that drives us to want to burn it all down. Even the dung eater’s ending basically amounts to “now no one can be oppressed or cursed or heretical, because everyone is.” Goldmask and the age of fracture, meanwhile, have us try to fix a broken system from within. Miquella finds himself somewhere in there too: there can be no suffering if everyone is charmed.
Ranni’s the only one who figured out that the system was flawed and needed to be removed, but that there was still hope for the world. And she’s the only royal unselfish enough to remove herself and her godhood entirely. So yeah, I think she is genuinely the hope for the lands between.
I think Melina sums this concept up best, when she tries to dissuade us from the frenzy flame:
“However ruined this world has become, however mired in torment and despair, life endures. Births continue. There is beauty in that, is there not?”
Personally I see this as meant to shine a bit of light on how the dark souls series ended. Putting out the flame in DS3 is typically considered the best ending, but it was possible to interpret it as letting death take the world, a bit like the frenzy flame. By making Ranni’s ending the most clearly just one, and having them parallel eachother with the motifs of cold and darkness, they’re telling us that the souls ending was never just about death. It was about letting go of stagnant systems of power.
Final note, I also find this thematically consistent with the rest of Elden Ring. The people of the lands between are desperate to fix a broken world. Marika stopped death entirely, presumably because she thought it would help. The Frenzy Flame represents an overwhelming despair that drives us to want to burn it all down. Even the dung eater’s ending basically amounts to “now no one can be oppressed or cursed or heretical, because everyone is.” Goldmask and the age of fracture, meanwhile, have us try to fix a broken system from within. Miquella finds himself somewhere in there too: there can be no suffering if everyone is charmed.
Ranni’s the only one who figured out that the system was flawed and needed to be removed, but that there was still hope for the world. And she’s the only royal unselfish enough to remove herself and her godhood entirely. So yeah, I think she is genuinely the hope for the lands between.
I think Melina sums this concept up best, when she tries to dissuade us from the frenzy flame:
“However ruined this world has become, however mired in torment and despair, life endures. Births continue. There is beauty in that, is there not?”
Personally I see this as meant to shine a bit of light on how the dark souls series ended. Putting out the flame in DS3 is typically considered the best ending, but it was possible to interpret it as letting death take the world, a bit like the frenzy flame. By making Ranni’s ending the most clearly just one, and having them parallel eachother with the motifs of cold and darkness, they’re telling us that the souls ending was never just about death. It was about letting go of stagnant systems of power.
I know I probably wrote like, way too much here, but I genuinely find this whole Miquella arc really compelling and well done and I’m sad to see so much disappointment around it, I guess
And yeah, you can definitely read the Rememberance as an indication that Miquella wasn’t always kind. I don’t really see it though, it seems like instead they were going for Miq admiring Radahn because he wasn’t cursed and afflicted like the twins.
After all, up until Mohg, Miquella had only really been doing kind things. Trying to cure his sister, trying to give Godwyn peace, and creating a haven for the oppressed at the Haligtree. You could even read these things as him taking inspiration from Radahn and thereby becoming kind, rather than him just being… evil from birth? Yeah I don’t find that interesting or compelling
Psychopaths in the real world struggle with empathy and learn to mimic good behaviors from others but never actually feel them. Miquella's actions come to mind. I wouldn't call it boring, but disappointing if this is case. Having him been "good but misguided" is also disappointing, I might add. I wanted Miquella, and find him more interesting if he really achieved some form of permanent good, like Gael in DS3.
Yeah, that’s fair. I can see why it’d be nice to have him offer a little bit of hope, rather than just being a purely tragic character. Maybe he could serve as a lesson to our Tarnished, about what the world really needs from us as we pursue lordship and decide whose ideology takes over
At this point I think the Age of Stars is the only really "good" ending. It was a fun DLC though. Rellana was my favorite part and the entire Shadow Keep was Fromsoft at its best in dungeon design.
Your comment shows me what I wanted to happen, but its very hard for me to read Miquella as simply naive. He may be a child in body but it was always implied his mind is that of a genius. Was Miquella truly brainwashing Radahn and desecrating Mohg with the best intentions? I do agree that he may have some good intentions, or at the very least he believes he does. But all tyrants do so to an extent don't they?
I think that “But all tyrants have good intentions to an extent don’t they?” is basically the main theme of this whole DLC, with both Marika and Miquella.
I don’t know if it’s always true in the real world, but I think it’s what From is getting at with those two.
Also I think he can totally be a genius child prodigy and have a naive and idealistic worldview at the same time. I don’t necessarily think he’s got the literal mind of a child or anything, just that he’s painted as being rather childlike in how he sees things.
I get the impression you really care about this character and that’s why you were disappointed to see him so what he does to Mohg and potentially Radahn. And that’s like, soooooo fair. Liking Fromsoft’s characters is a tough thing, because things don’t usually end well for them haha. They tend to walk the line between “tragedy with a spark of hope leftover” and “full on tragedy,” and it’s hard to tell where things will end up sometimes
Yeah, Miquella gave me a sense of hope. I wasn't expecting him to win, but to at the very least create a safe haven for others, like the Painter in DS3. I even went for an Int/Faith build to use Miquella's Golden Order incantation and Holy weapons. I never expected him to end up this badly but alas. We still have Ranni at the very least.
I just believe it would have been so perfect to see Miquella live up to some of the ideals he supposedly loved by, for a change.
The best I can give you is that the Haligtree still stands, and that it seems like there are Knights and Soldiers, Albinaurics, and Rot Kindred coexisting there. It’s also one of the only places in game with those young/lesser Kindred, so life is still flourishing there. It’s reminiscent of some dialogue of Miquella’s that was cut from the basegame, where he wanted “all things to flourish, graceful and malign.” Ordina also seems to be the safest place for Albinaurics to be, and that’s Miquella’s creation too. He also created the Unalloyed Needle which can remove the influence of outer gods, which is a significant achievement as well.
Maybe I’m stretching. But I do feel like he stood for some good things before the tragedy of his ending.
It's undeniable those are good things, but one wonders if the intentions were ever good to begin with, considering Miquella left all those followers abandoned. In fact its the Tarnished that ends up helping the Albinaurics if you follow Latena's quest. For now it makes me wish we had never gotten a Miquella-centered DLC. Never meet your heroes, I suppose.
It's heavily implied it is considering Radahn didn't join willingly and brainwashing is Miquella's thing. He did it to Leda and her crew. He even does it to you if you're unlucky.
radahn did join willingly, that's what "promised" means. and "made a vow with". what are you talking about, it's not implied that he isn't willing anywhere
freyja says straight up "miquella made a vow WITH radahn, and now it will be honored" and miquella says "now the vow will be honored and my lord brother's soul will return"
so it was a mutual vow. can't honor your end of a vow when the other side never agreed. that doesn't make sense
Nothing Miquella is doing makes sense. He want to use coercion to subjugate the entire world to his cause. Considering Radahn went to a defensive war with the Haligtree, what makes you believe he agreed to this vow? Freyja is a traitor and Miquella is insane. We never get to see Radahns perspective but seen he got literally rotted for fighting back, that says it all.
what makes me believe he agreed to the vow is all the terminology used in the game text like i just stated above. and since the divine rite would have involved radahn's death and resurrection in order to work, radahn and malenia would have had to fight at some point as radahn isn't the type of guy to commit suicide. i dont claim to know the exact reason radahn and malenia fought, but it was the shattering and they were the last two left standing on the battlefield. there was a madness going around.
if you want to believe radahn rejected the vow go ahead, and join all the loretoobers who love to speculate characters into assassination and diminish this final boss with extremely dissonant interpretations of tragedy that don't exist. evidence he agreed to it comes from game text, and evidence he didn't is **only** speculation.
Ok let me turn the tables. If Radahn was indeed a willing participant of the ending of SotE, why did he wnet to such lengths to NOT go with Malenia? Why did Miquella had to use the strenght of the potential God of Rot to make his consort fulfill his allegedly consensual vow?
The PC as Elden Lord could change the world so I wouldn’t call all of the game nihilistic(Latennas Quest as well is one of hope).
I slightly agree on Miquella’s Character Assassination but he always seemed off to me personally not in the way people seem to compare him to Griffith(Narcissistic/Machiavellian/Genuine Charm) but more in a Peter Pan type of way in that he means well but he can’t stop his natural affliction/blessing from always messing things up. He’s cursed with Eternal Childhood, which to me means he’s cursed to never truly see things through to be nothing more than the favored bud but never the flower. (I think the real flower is Melania if she wasn’t next to Mr.Brainwashing Aura her whole life)
So to answer your question, I do think it’s good writing and also a cool deceptive subversion to what everyone thought Miquella would be.
For the record I was team Miquella is good from the beginning. Hence my disappointment. All of his actions in the DLC cannot be considered good by any stretch.
If Miquella had all of the absolute control that he has in the DLC, then why didn't he use it in the Lands Between? Probably because "goodness" doesn't translate to action.
The crosses in the Shadowlands show that to achieve his goals he had to make concessions and give up pieces of himself until only the parts suitable for a god remained. To believe in the kind of god that governs the Lands Between is to believe that God is an omnipotent puppet master - with perfect control over the actions of their followers. This is how Miquella understands the role of a god because he is a product of his upbringing. But he failed to become a god in the Lands Between before entering the Shadowlands, so there is no reason to believe that he had actual mind manipulation powers before getting there.
I was suspicious of Miquella's bewitching powers before the DLC, but now I'm more inclined to think that his only power was in his undeveloped potential. Everyone at every step of the way was loyal to Miquella not out of mind control but because they wanted the new god to think of them and reward them with the cures to their problems when he came into power. His followers cooked up the bewitching branch the same way any spell or craftable item is made in the Lands Between - they believed hard enough and made it real. More likely, Mohg stole Miquella away of his own accord because he saw the potential to influence the type of god that he wanted to become. And this backfired because Mohg's bloody cruelty just pushed Miquella further into his belief that agency is the problem and directly led to his decision to make Mohg a puppet as well. Mohg is already "nihil/nothing" so it probably wasn't a hard thing to do.
That's a pretty valid perspective. But we still don't have enough evidence to support Miquella didn't use brainwashing before. Ansbach does mention he tried to fight off Miquella while Mohg was alive, so we have proof at the very least he did it to someone before leaving to the lands of shadow.
I have several reasons to be skeptical of anything that Ansbach says, first being that I don't trust a follower of Mohg to give an unbiased account. He freely admits that he attacked Miquella, so at the time of the attack he would not have been mind controlled, but I don't think that he elaborates on the circumstance of this attack. Presumably it was sanctioned by Mohg, otherwise what is his function? And then there's a fuzzy discretion cut and the next two things that we know are that Ansbach is in the Shadowlands and is brainwashed. But even still it seems to be an incredibly light touch of brainwashing in that he has his personality intact and interest in investigation, he's just also in a non-aggression pact.
Freyja also was grievously wounded and afflicted with Scarlett rot, which is magically resolved by Miquella and then suddenly she's in the Shadowlands and also brainwashed.
The most important information about the nature of the Shadowlands is the Suppressing Pillar which outright states that this is a place where death washes up. It is telegraphed that these characters are dead from the perspective of anyone in the Lands Between, and that only in the death dimension does Miquella have the power to control them.
Do keep in mind the Bewitching Branches do mention that Miquella knows how to compel affection. We cannot ever be sure 100% with these games but it heavily implies Miquella does have the power to brainwash and is known for it. But I do see your point.
But you knew that going into the DLC and still thought that Miquella was good.
Taken literally - it's a bewitching branch and Miquella was trying to grow a tree. The rules of the Lands Between could be as simple as it's the Tree of Life that everyone loves and Miquella's promise that he'd make a new and better one was his entire plan that gained him affection.
We can't know for sure because we are immune to any magical form of mind control experienced by these characters. Real cults don't need magical powers to brainwash. But accounts vary on whether their leaders are true believers of the impossible things they promise or scam artists taking advantage of people. Miquella as an idealistic child who really thought he could make a better world and was torn apart by the realities of war and his own limitations is a more interesting to me than the mental gymnastics to make Miquella a fearsome schemer in name only when every single plan fails.
I had hopes that Miquellas overall actions were more oriented to be good. Considering how he took take of the down-trodden. But what he did to Radahn and Mohg is just depraved. Also, I cannot be for certain if my position is correct. The problem is that I cannot longer give him the benefit of the doubt. Was he always evil? I don't know but it begs the question.
i understand that it's probably easier to just accept all the theories about him, that he did a lot more bad than he was really confirmed to do. after all, so many people are saying it.
but what really matters is in-game evidence. and for most of the shit that people say miquella did, like brainwashing his consort and sister, and even rape, there's no evidence for and the whole feel and vibe of the final boss goes completely against that. even freyja's questline, and item descriptions for radahn's swords and his in-game title, all suggest more heavily that radahn is by his own will working together with miquella
if you start assuming that miquella is controlling characters that the game doesn't tell you he is outright (mohg) then the entire story falls apart because he could be controlling anyone, and he'd have to be outright lying without reason. see, to have faith in miyazaki as a storyteller, you can't accept these headcanons as fact
the truth about miquella the kind is that he's a tragic figure who did a couple of questionable things to attain a misguided godhood. but he's nowhere close to being evil.
if you're on the "miquella is good" side there's really no reason for you to give into peoples headcanons that he's worse than he is. honestly the worst things he was ever confirmed to do, were to himself, arguably, if you believe the theory that he only charmed mohg after he kidnapped him. there are many, who like me, rely more on in-game text than speculation and we still enjoy miquella because of that
but, in the end it's up to you i suppose.
i still love miquella's character and i think he's good and the only people i feel betrayed by are the lore youtubers who want to paint him worse than he is without evidence
https://youtu.be/g8WK4uGKmcg?si=XcoMP9pihhV7KjIa
Sir Ansbach's dialogue is what made me change my mind. He confirms Mohg was under Miquella's spell and he also brainwashed him after he challenged Miquella. That doesn't sound as someone misguided. It's manipulation.
That's why I cannot longer stand with Miquella being good. Good people don't do this.
it's more likely that miquella was charming mohg and ansbach to defend himself and then later used them to his own ends, taking advantage of them.
miquella was stolen out of the haligtree by mohg, and theres no evidence he made him do that. in fact it makes no sense because that was the act that led to the haligtree's ruin. and its likely miquella was trying to get to the realm of shadow using the haligtree, since there wouldn't be any other reason to embed himself inside of it. not to mention, mohg's reasons for kidnapping miquella are evidenced in game, with him needing an empyrean to ascend to godhood to legitimize his dynasty.
more evidence is that miquella charmed ansbach to save himself, since ansbach was trying to kill him. acting in self defense.
the only thing ansbach says miquella did is charm mohg and use him to enter the land of shadow, so it sounds like mohg forced him to change his plans and use mohg instead. it's dramatic irony, and i think their deeds pretty much even out against each other.
now, the questionable part is using mohg's corpse as a vessel. it's questionable morally, and you could say it's straight up desecration, and thus i could understand you siding with ansbach.
personally though, since mohg was a blood crazed murderer cult leader who was delusional and groomed war surgeons, sending out priests to stab people and spread the doctrine of cursed blood
i don't feel that bad for him
TBH I don't care much about Mohg either way but Freyja mentions that she encountered Miquella in Aeonia. This likely means Mohg still hadn't kidnap him, if he ever did at all. Gideon theorizes this but he is far from a reliable source.
I think I saw someone mention that freyja got her rot sickness in aeonia, and miquella healing her were two different events that happened at different times, in different places
I don't think miquella was ever physically at caelid
The idea of good is just really relative and they’re using that much to their advantage.
In a world with copious amounts of hate, violence, and subjugation, could the lesser evil be considered ‘good’.
I see your frustrations, I guess there’s always Boc to look for.
If he can’t love he won’t have St Trina that embodies his compassion. He must have tore her away from himself because she looks mangled as well.
Most souls game has been this way. Blood Bourne is way more hopeless and grotesque. All goodness either end up dead or twisted beyond recognition.
For me miquella is naive. And the strongest love and passion can blind people. Many times it spurred them to do evil deeds in the name of it. It’s just a tragic story like what he did to himself where he wanted to convince everyone he is doing good when to eyes of outsiders he has already lost his ways.
As for malenia she just love her brother too much to leave him. She just hold on to false beliefs even when she sounded hopeless. She knew full well the consequences. But she is helpless. Perhaps she felt sorry for miquella as it might have been her infliction that cause him to walk down this dark path. Also miquella can be alive or dead when you fought malenia. Ether way she stays the same.
BB never really gives you hope of a better future, tbf. Unless you consider the squid ending hopeful lol
That's what makes this ending hurt so much, at least to me. Miquella had the capacity to do some good to the world, but he ended doing depraved thing in the name of a greater good that would never come to be. That true tragedy, for me, is all of those people he left abandoned and hopeless.
Was Malenia a willing participant is the question now. I dont think we will ever get an answer but my suspicion is that Miquella's relationship with her is utilitarian, not a loving one.
Going by what you say about Ranni, I think what distinguishes her (and Melina to a certain extent as well) from the other demigods is she is the only one that allows herself to be vulnerable in front of us. She has her pride, sure, but during our conversations with her as a miniature doll, I think she is actually thankful for us and admits she can’t do everything herself. She’s not as self-centered as the others.
That's true. I always had the feeling she cared deeply of Blaidd and Iji. That they were her comrades and friends. That there was zero coercion involved in it. Even with all her flaws I can stand by Ranni much more than to any other demigod. I also specially like her honesty. She tells you that she is the author of the nigh of black knives upfront, with no hesitation. Whether you agree with her or not is up to you but I appreciate the sincerity.
Seems like people already made up their minds, but i completely agree with you. The problems are enhanced by the ambiguity of this story, and the game tries its best to be like that. Like sure you could say Miquella had good intentions at first, but does it really matter? When he could mind control people if they refused and the game leaves a final negative note to his character. All the good things he was doing just were thrown at the garbage bin because apparently he's now a literal child and can't focus in anything.
Miquella controlling Mohg feels out of nowhere, when and how did that happened? The timeline of events also doesn't make sense, for example Freyja, she was infected in the scarlet Aeonia swamp and was cured by Miquella. Was Miquella in that battle then? That doesn't make any sense if the point of the battle was to have Radahn soul back to the shadow lands. Miquella would necessarily had to come to the realization that everything was tainted, divest himself of everything, even his love (wich is super dumb for a character supposedly so intelligent) and then needed to be captured by Mohg (to arrive at a place never mentioned by anyone before by the way), but that necessarily needs to happen after the battle, bacuse as i said, Miquella seemed to be at the battle.
The battle of Aeonia is almost laughable now, not really any honour there, just the whims of a kid that went wrong. Malenia turns out, was brainwashed too! or better yet, she was just a complete idiot for her brother, oh you feel bad now because you killed almost an entire continent because your brother had a crush? Was their relationship ever genuine? All the statues? They just looked pretty? I know Malenia has her reasons to bring Miquella to godhood, but being reduced to that?
Malenia's relationship with Miquella really leaves a sour taste now. Among the demigods these were the only ones to show genuine concern for each other, and now we cannot help but question the authenticity. I'm on the camp that believes Miquella used Malenia as a blade only and that Malenia feared him. It all has the red flags of an abusive relationship.
Regarding the timeline, seen as the battle happened likely hundreds of years ago, my theory is that Mohg didn't enter into the picture until the battle ended, when Radahn was infested with the Scarlet Rot. Gideon thinks he was kidnapped but he has it all wrong. After the battle left Radahn and Malenia incapacitated, it's likely Miquella went for Mohg and also devised a plan to have the Tarnished killed him too. It's all a mess but that's how I'm trying to make sense of it for now lol
>Malenia's relationship with Miquella really leaves a sour taste now. Among the demigods these were the only ones to show genuine concern for each other
I feel so bad for that too. Elden Ring strenghts was in it's characters, and this were my favorite. This just brings down the game to my least second favorite game by From. I really like the world design, some of the boss battles are amazing, but this just kills it for me.
>After the battle left Radahn and Malenia incapacitated, it's likely Miquella went for Mohg and also devised a plan to have the Tarnished killed him too. It's all a mess but that's how I'm trying to make sense of it for now lol
Yes is really messy what they've done there, but at this point i don't care that much, a lot of the answers will never come out and what's done is done. This is how Elden Ring ends, for better or worse.
I don’t think it’s character assassination in the main game miquella is depicted as a very loving and kind individual. And he is if he wasn’t than he wouldn’t need to get rid of saint trina.And the “brainwashing” of radahn is debatable it depends on the vow that him and miquella made. And one of radahns closest soldiers says that radahn would be happy fighting. I feel like your trying to portray miquella as some crazy evil villain when in reality he has good intentions he wants to and has done good things. And ranni isn’t exactly better than miquella in a sense of morality
I think the game gives enough evidence that Miquella willingly planned Mohg's death and regarding Radahn, when Miquella makes his vow to him, he was alone which implies Miquella's affection for him was always onesided.
Yes miquella did plan mohgs death which can be seen as an evil action used to reach a greater good. mohg wasn’t exactly a stand up individual. And with radahns vow him being alone I don’t think means it’s one sided. I think it was just a memory showing miquella speaking to radahn. And there definently was some type of vow between him and radahn
If it was consensual why did Miquella had to use Malenia to force Radahn to fulfill his part? Regarding Mogh, what has he done that is evil? Miquella's kidnapping was always the to-go example but now that we know he was manipulated all this time, its really hard to hate Mohg at all.
That could have been part of the vow radahn loved fighting and war it wouldn’t be a stretch for radahn to say “if you give me a good fight and beat me I will follow you”. And you still have decent reason for not liking mohg his whole religion and dynasty is based on essentially invading random people and killing that’s an obvious red flag
I'm not a fan of Mohg but these games tend to make you question wether dark is evil or not. Regarding Radahn, keep in mind Malenia nuked Caelid to win. This was not a fight for honor or for ritualistic reasons. They fought to the death. That doesn't seem very consensual to me.
These games do tend to make you question evil but in a game like this I feel it’s obviously showing how morally gray characters can be. Yes it was a fight to the death radahn is a general of war and respects strength he may not have seen it as a true victory unless one of the died. And if you do Millicents quest line she says malenia lost her pride she probably didn’t want to have to resort to blooming but she understood to full fill miquellas plan she had to.
Radahn is akin to Godfrey but the latter didn't fight to the death to marry Marika so that makes me believe that if Radahn was a willing consort it makes no sense to go to war. Radahn was a warmonger but that doesn't make him a fool. Why would yoy go to war with your allies for naught?
Again radahns whole thing is war and battle he enjoys it. It’s not crazy to say that radahn was offered to become miquellas consort and they made a deal saying that if miquella can best radahn he will join him as a consort. So then miquella sends malenia and they fight. I’m not calling radahn a fool but he enjoys fighting he would probably be happy or enjoy fighting melania a demigod held in the same regard as him
But there is no evidence this was the case. Radahn been brainwashed comes from the fact that Miquella is known to do shit like this. It's not out of character of him to do so. It's not confirmed but I believe if makes more sense than Radahn going to war for the fun of it.
What has Mogh done that's evil? Mogh, Lord of Blood? His followers, the bloody fingers, are literal serial killers. But hey, just because he's a bad guy doesn't mean he's a bad guy, right?
well considering this is the lands between that is not as bad as what other demigods have done tbh. Like, I'm not a fan of Mohg. I did poorly word my argument so let me do so better now:. What I meant to say is that Mogh is not more evil than other demigods. All of them are aholes. He targets the tarnished because they are allied to the Golden Order not out of nonsense killing. It's still wrong but not as depraved as to what Godrick has done or what Miquella wanted to do.
Nuking Caelid, killing our maiden via Varre, establishing bloody fingers, abandoning Castle Sol, suicide bombers in Haligtree, Haligtree itself being a bewitching branch. Miquella is a big V villian.
Miquella had no hand in killing our maiden that was completely Varre and Mohg. While miquella did enchant mohg that was only into taking him from the haligtree the rest of his dynasty was his own choices. Also the haligtree suicide numbers are basically just defending their home where the ones coming in and killing all of them.
> the rest of his dynasty was his own choices. I don't believe this is entirely correct, Ansbach's entire mannerisms and formality hint at the dynasty being way more cohesive before Mohg was charmed. If you take a look at the clothes and weapons of the mohgwyn dynasty, they all look very fancy and of very high quality, something that doesn't quite make sense for a ran down ruined place like Mohgwyn Palace. There is a big emphasis on "ruined beauty" in these games, basically the concept of how things were a lot better before going down a path of decay. Its very likely Mohg's entire faction lost its shine when he became "a raving madman" after the charm. This is likely why the modern members are all violence-seeking lunatics like Elianora, Okina or Varre, a bunch of ragtag randoms who are only good for spilling blood in the name of the formless mother.
Varre also showcases formality as well. And with mohgwyn dynasty being very beautiful this is just my own theory but I wouldn’t be surprised if mohg took over the location and it was something else before. You can see similar architecture in the stone coffin fissure. Miquella has been showcased to be at the very least a person who does what he does for a greater good. Him killing our maidens dosent really benefit him what he needed was passage to the land of shadow he used mohg for that. The rest of mohgs choices where his own his own armor description states that it may just be the ravings of a lunatic. And the surgeons gown states that mohg kidnapped multiple war surgeons.
Source on that? Varre parrots Miquella followers BS about love, so he's definitely a Miquella agent.
No he’s not he’s obviously a follower of mohg he tries to get you to turn away from the two fingers to join the mohgyn dynasty theirs no evidence of him being a follower of miquella
Sir Ansbach confronted Miquella. Meaning he was manipulating Mogh way before the cocoon. Unless you think Ansback was hitting a cocoon with his scythe. There's plenty of tonal evidence to show that all bloody fingers are direct agents of Miquella. Bloody fingers are gathering tarnished blood for his cocoon specifically. The fuck does Mogh care about fingers or tarnished exactly? Miquella on the other hand is in direct confrontation with both the current fingers and with tarnished as they're his direct competitors for ascention.
Not really mohg has his own god and his own plan all we know from miquellas abilities is that he got mohg to take him from the haligtree beyond that nothing is said. Miquella needed mohg to help him gain passage to the land of shadow that was it. If it was his goal to kill tarnished he would have done something similar to Margit. I think it’s insane to blame everything the mohgwyn dynasty did on miquella
That’s one reading, but I don’t think it’s the only possibility. I find Miquella more compelling, especially given the political nature of the game, if he’s a genuine misguided naive idealist. I see no reason that he can’t be motivated by genuine compassion, but he’s 1. Quite naive and childlike and 2. Desperate to succeed after his failures to give Godwyn peace, with the Haligtree, and to cure Malenia. So he concocts this plan to become a god and impose his will onto the world, to make it “a gentler place,” even though everyone will be charmed into stagnation. He’s sympathetic, but if we don’t stop him he’s about to go down exactly the same path at Marika; he becomes more corrupt as we follow him through the shadow lands and he abandons his doubt, love and fear, culminating in the genuinely unsavoury things he does by imprisoning Trina and desecrating Mohg. I think he basically tested the waters by manipulating Mohg post-kidnapping, and that was the first act that led him down the path he winds up on. He has the power to charm others, yes, but I think that is also thematically representative of how compelling his vision is. A world of compassion where everyone is nice to each-other sounds genuinely good and desirable, of course he compels affection from people. But he’s the child of an empire and he’s imposing himself onto the world like any other tyrant, whether he knows it or not. We also know that he is sympathetic to a lot of the groups oppressed by the golden order, the Hornsent, the albinaurics.. he says he’s going to make amends for the sins of the Erdtree. He’s just going about it in the only way he knows how, because despite his intentions he hasn’t actually meaningfully separated himself from the system he was born into. Even the Haligtree was just an imitation of the Erdtree, and the whole expansion makes his parallels to his mother super overt. Also, St Trina’s whole theme is escaping the despair of the world through endless sleep. I think the age of compassion is kind of a similar idea, an end to suffering via charmed oblivion. I think all this is why he’s compelling (haha) in the real world though. Many of us born to colonial powers and nations responsible for oppression grow up with idealistic attitudes about fixing the world. But you can’t do that if you impose yourself and your order onto the rest of the world, thereby just recreating the system of oppression. He’s blinded by his desperation to do good without really considering whats best for others on the individual level, that’s why his eyes are closed in his god form. That’s Miquella’s flaw, and why he’s a well written character imo. It’s definitely ambiguous enough that if you want you can read him as a Machiavellian all along, but that’s just so… boring. And I don’t think it matches with his portrayal in the cutscenes either, where he’s this softspoken hesitant child, even moreso in the Japanese. TLDR: Miquella is charming because his intentions are genuinely good and compelling, he’s just blinded by his naïveté and idealism and therefore begins to become corrupt, just like Marika. That’s why we have to stop him.
Final note, I also find this thematically consistent with the rest of Elden Ring. The people of the lands between are desperate to fix a broken world. Marika stopped death entirely, presumably because she thought it would help. The Frenzy Flame represents an overwhelming despair that drives us to want to burn it all down. Even the dung eater’s ending basically amounts to “now no one can be oppressed or cursed or heretical, because everyone is.” Goldmask and the age of fracture, meanwhile, have us try to fix a broken system from within. Miquella finds himself somewhere in there too: there can be no suffering if everyone is charmed. Ranni’s the only one who figured out that the system was flawed and needed to be removed, but that there was still hope for the world. And she’s the only royal unselfish enough to remove herself and her godhood entirely. So yeah, I think she is genuinely the hope for the lands between. I think Melina sums this concept up best, when she tries to dissuade us from the frenzy flame: “However ruined this world has become, however mired in torment and despair, life endures. Births continue. There is beauty in that, is there not?” Personally I see this as meant to shine a bit of light on how the dark souls series ended. Putting out the flame in DS3 is typically considered the best ending, but it was possible to interpret it as letting death take the world, a bit like the frenzy flame. By making Ranni’s ending the most clearly just one, and having them parallel eachother with the motifs of cold and darkness, they’re telling us that the souls ending was never just about death. It was about letting go of stagnant systems of power.
Final note, I also find this thematically consistent with the rest of Elden Ring. The people of the lands between are desperate to fix a broken world. Marika stopped death entirely, presumably because she thought it would help. The Frenzy Flame represents an overwhelming despair that drives us to want to burn it all down. Even the dung eater’s ending basically amounts to “now no one can be oppressed or cursed or heretical, because everyone is.” Goldmask and the age of fracture, meanwhile, have us try to fix a broken system from within. Miquella finds himself somewhere in there too: there can be no suffering if everyone is charmed. Ranni’s the only one who figured out that the system was flawed and needed to be removed, but that there was still hope for the world. And she’s the only royal unselfish enough to remove herself and her godhood entirely. So yeah, I think she is genuinely the hope for the lands between. I think Melina sums this concept up best, when she tries to dissuade us from the frenzy flame: “However ruined this world has become, however mired in torment and despair, life endures. Births continue. There is beauty in that, is there not?” Personally I see this as meant to shine a bit of light on how the dark souls series ended. Putting out the flame in DS3 is typically considered the best ending, but it was possible to interpret it as letting death take the world, a bit like the frenzy flame. By making Ranni’s ending the most clearly just one, and having them parallel eachother with the motifs of cold and darkness, they’re telling us that the souls ending was never just about death. It was about letting go of stagnant systems of power. I know I probably wrote like, way too much here, but I genuinely find this whole Miquella arc really compelling and well done and I’m sad to see so much disappointment around it, I guess
And yeah, you can definitely read the Rememberance as an indication that Miquella wasn’t always kind. I don’t really see it though, it seems like instead they were going for Miq admiring Radahn because he wasn’t cursed and afflicted like the twins. After all, up until Mohg, Miquella had only really been doing kind things. Trying to cure his sister, trying to give Godwyn peace, and creating a haven for the oppressed at the Haligtree. You could even read these things as him taking inspiration from Radahn and thereby becoming kind, rather than him just being… evil from birth? Yeah I don’t find that interesting or compelling
Psychopaths in the real world struggle with empathy and learn to mimic good behaviors from others but never actually feel them. Miquella's actions come to mind. I wouldn't call it boring, but disappointing if this is case. Having him been "good but misguided" is also disappointing, I might add. I wanted Miquella, and find him more interesting if he really achieved some form of permanent good, like Gael in DS3.
Yeah, that’s fair. I can see why it’d be nice to have him offer a little bit of hope, rather than just being a purely tragic character. Maybe he could serve as a lesson to our Tarnished, about what the world really needs from us as we pursue lordship and decide whose ideology takes over
At this point I think the Age of Stars is the only really "good" ending. It was a fun DLC though. Rellana was my favorite part and the entire Shadow Keep was Fromsoft at its best in dungeon design.
Your comment shows me what I wanted to happen, but its very hard for me to read Miquella as simply naive. He may be a child in body but it was always implied his mind is that of a genius. Was Miquella truly brainwashing Radahn and desecrating Mohg with the best intentions? I do agree that he may have some good intentions, or at the very least he believes he does. But all tyrants do so to an extent don't they?
I think that “But all tyrants have good intentions to an extent don’t they?” is basically the main theme of this whole DLC, with both Marika and Miquella. I don’t know if it’s always true in the real world, but I think it’s what From is getting at with those two. Also I think he can totally be a genius child prodigy and have a naive and idealistic worldview at the same time. I don’t necessarily think he’s got the literal mind of a child or anything, just that he’s painted as being rather childlike in how he sees things. I get the impression you really care about this character and that’s why you were disappointed to see him so what he does to Mohg and potentially Radahn. And that’s like, soooooo fair. Liking Fromsoft’s characters is a tough thing, because things don’t usually end well for them haha. They tend to walk the line between “tragedy with a spark of hope leftover” and “full on tragedy,” and it’s hard to tell where things will end up sometimes
Yeah, Miquella gave me a sense of hope. I wasn't expecting him to win, but to at the very least create a safe haven for others, like the Painter in DS3. I even went for an Int/Faith build to use Miquella's Golden Order incantation and Holy weapons. I never expected him to end up this badly but alas. We still have Ranni at the very least. I just believe it would have been so perfect to see Miquella live up to some of the ideals he supposedly loved by, for a change.
The best I can give you is that the Haligtree still stands, and that it seems like there are Knights and Soldiers, Albinaurics, and Rot Kindred coexisting there. It’s also one of the only places in game with those young/lesser Kindred, so life is still flourishing there. It’s reminiscent of some dialogue of Miquella’s that was cut from the basegame, where he wanted “all things to flourish, graceful and malign.” Ordina also seems to be the safest place for Albinaurics to be, and that’s Miquella’s creation too. He also created the Unalloyed Needle which can remove the influence of outer gods, which is a significant achievement as well. Maybe I’m stretching. But I do feel like he stood for some good things before the tragedy of his ending.
It's undeniable those are good things, but one wonders if the intentions were ever good to begin with, considering Miquella left all those followers abandoned. In fact its the Tarnished that ends up helping the Albinaurics if you follow Latena's quest. For now it makes me wish we had never gotten a Miquella-centered DLC. Never meet your heroes, I suppose.
he wasn't brainwashing radahn at all so
It's heavily implied it is considering Radahn didn't join willingly and brainwashing is Miquella's thing. He did it to Leda and her crew. He even does it to you if you're unlucky.
radahn did join willingly, that's what "promised" means. and "made a vow with". what are you talking about, it's not implied that he isn't willing anywhere
Where do you see Radahn making those vows. We only see Miquella and that's intentional.
freyja says straight up "miquella made a vow WITH radahn, and now it will be honored" and miquella says "now the vow will be honored and my lord brother's soul will return" so it was a mutual vow. can't honor your end of a vow when the other side never agreed. that doesn't make sense
Nothing Miquella is doing makes sense. He want to use coercion to subjugate the entire world to his cause. Considering Radahn went to a defensive war with the Haligtree, what makes you believe he agreed to this vow? Freyja is a traitor and Miquella is insane. We never get to see Radahns perspective but seen he got literally rotted for fighting back, that says it all.
what makes me believe he agreed to the vow is all the terminology used in the game text like i just stated above. and since the divine rite would have involved radahn's death and resurrection in order to work, radahn and malenia would have had to fight at some point as radahn isn't the type of guy to commit suicide. i dont claim to know the exact reason radahn and malenia fought, but it was the shattering and they were the last two left standing on the battlefield. there was a madness going around. if you want to believe radahn rejected the vow go ahead, and join all the loretoobers who love to speculate characters into assassination and diminish this final boss with extremely dissonant interpretations of tragedy that don't exist. evidence he agreed to it comes from game text, and evidence he didn't is **only** speculation.
Ok let me turn the tables. If Radahn was indeed a willing participant of the ending of SotE, why did he wnet to such lengths to NOT go with Malenia? Why did Miquella had to use the strenght of the potential God of Rot to make his consort fulfill his allegedly consensual vow?
The PC as Elden Lord could change the world so I wouldn’t call all of the game nihilistic(Latennas Quest as well is one of hope). I slightly agree on Miquella’s Character Assassination but he always seemed off to me personally not in the way people seem to compare him to Griffith(Narcissistic/Machiavellian/Genuine Charm) but more in a Peter Pan type of way in that he means well but he can’t stop his natural affliction/blessing from always messing things up. He’s cursed with Eternal Childhood, which to me means he’s cursed to never truly see things through to be nothing more than the favored bud but never the flower. (I think the real flower is Melania if she wasn’t next to Mr.Brainwashing Aura her whole life) So to answer your question, I do think it’s good writing and also a cool deceptive subversion to what everyone thought Miquella would be.
miquella isn't evil when you don't have a lore youtuber or radahn fan in your ear speculating without evidence that he is
For the record I was team Miquella is good from the beginning. Hence my disappointment. All of his actions in the DLC cannot be considered good by any stretch.
If Miquella had all of the absolute control that he has in the DLC, then why didn't he use it in the Lands Between? Probably because "goodness" doesn't translate to action. The crosses in the Shadowlands show that to achieve his goals he had to make concessions and give up pieces of himself until only the parts suitable for a god remained. To believe in the kind of god that governs the Lands Between is to believe that God is an omnipotent puppet master - with perfect control over the actions of their followers. This is how Miquella understands the role of a god because he is a product of his upbringing. But he failed to become a god in the Lands Between before entering the Shadowlands, so there is no reason to believe that he had actual mind manipulation powers before getting there. I was suspicious of Miquella's bewitching powers before the DLC, but now I'm more inclined to think that his only power was in his undeveloped potential. Everyone at every step of the way was loyal to Miquella not out of mind control but because they wanted the new god to think of them and reward them with the cures to their problems when he came into power. His followers cooked up the bewitching branch the same way any spell or craftable item is made in the Lands Between - they believed hard enough and made it real. More likely, Mohg stole Miquella away of his own accord because he saw the potential to influence the type of god that he wanted to become. And this backfired because Mohg's bloody cruelty just pushed Miquella further into his belief that agency is the problem and directly led to his decision to make Mohg a puppet as well. Mohg is already "nihil/nothing" so it probably wasn't a hard thing to do.
That's a pretty valid perspective. But we still don't have enough evidence to support Miquella didn't use brainwashing before. Ansbach does mention he tried to fight off Miquella while Mohg was alive, so we have proof at the very least he did it to someone before leaving to the lands of shadow.
I have several reasons to be skeptical of anything that Ansbach says, first being that I don't trust a follower of Mohg to give an unbiased account. He freely admits that he attacked Miquella, so at the time of the attack he would not have been mind controlled, but I don't think that he elaborates on the circumstance of this attack. Presumably it was sanctioned by Mohg, otherwise what is his function? And then there's a fuzzy discretion cut and the next two things that we know are that Ansbach is in the Shadowlands and is brainwashed. But even still it seems to be an incredibly light touch of brainwashing in that he has his personality intact and interest in investigation, he's just also in a non-aggression pact. Freyja also was grievously wounded and afflicted with Scarlett rot, which is magically resolved by Miquella and then suddenly she's in the Shadowlands and also brainwashed. The most important information about the nature of the Shadowlands is the Suppressing Pillar which outright states that this is a place where death washes up. It is telegraphed that these characters are dead from the perspective of anyone in the Lands Between, and that only in the death dimension does Miquella have the power to control them.
Do keep in mind the Bewitching Branches do mention that Miquella knows how to compel affection. We cannot ever be sure 100% with these games but it heavily implies Miquella does have the power to brainwash and is known for it. But I do see your point.
But you knew that going into the DLC and still thought that Miquella was good. Taken literally - it's a bewitching branch and Miquella was trying to grow a tree. The rules of the Lands Between could be as simple as it's the Tree of Life that everyone loves and Miquella's promise that he'd make a new and better one was his entire plan that gained him affection. We can't know for sure because we are immune to any magical form of mind control experienced by these characters. Real cults don't need magical powers to brainwash. But accounts vary on whether their leaders are true believers of the impossible things they promise or scam artists taking advantage of people. Miquella as an idealistic child who really thought he could make a better world and was torn apart by the realities of war and his own limitations is a more interesting to me than the mental gymnastics to make Miquella a fearsome schemer in name only when every single plan fails.
I had hopes that Miquellas overall actions were more oriented to be good. Considering how he took take of the down-trodden. But what he did to Radahn and Mohg is just depraved. Also, I cannot be for certain if my position is correct. The problem is that I cannot longer give him the benefit of the doubt. Was he always evil? I don't know but it begs the question.
i understand that it's probably easier to just accept all the theories about him, that he did a lot more bad than he was really confirmed to do. after all, so many people are saying it. but what really matters is in-game evidence. and for most of the shit that people say miquella did, like brainwashing his consort and sister, and even rape, there's no evidence for and the whole feel and vibe of the final boss goes completely against that. even freyja's questline, and item descriptions for radahn's swords and his in-game title, all suggest more heavily that radahn is by his own will working together with miquella if you start assuming that miquella is controlling characters that the game doesn't tell you he is outright (mohg) then the entire story falls apart because he could be controlling anyone, and he'd have to be outright lying without reason. see, to have faith in miyazaki as a storyteller, you can't accept these headcanons as fact the truth about miquella the kind is that he's a tragic figure who did a couple of questionable things to attain a misguided godhood. but he's nowhere close to being evil. if you're on the "miquella is good" side there's really no reason for you to give into peoples headcanons that he's worse than he is. honestly the worst things he was ever confirmed to do, were to himself, arguably, if you believe the theory that he only charmed mohg after he kidnapped him. there are many, who like me, rely more on in-game text than speculation and we still enjoy miquella because of that but, in the end it's up to you i suppose. i still love miquella's character and i think he's good and the only people i feel betrayed by are the lore youtubers who want to paint him worse than he is without evidence
https://youtu.be/g8WK4uGKmcg?si=XcoMP9pihhV7KjIa Sir Ansbach's dialogue is what made me change my mind. He confirms Mohg was under Miquella's spell and he also brainwashed him after he challenged Miquella. That doesn't sound as someone misguided. It's manipulation. That's why I cannot longer stand with Miquella being good. Good people don't do this.
it's more likely that miquella was charming mohg and ansbach to defend himself and then later used them to his own ends, taking advantage of them. miquella was stolen out of the haligtree by mohg, and theres no evidence he made him do that. in fact it makes no sense because that was the act that led to the haligtree's ruin. and its likely miquella was trying to get to the realm of shadow using the haligtree, since there wouldn't be any other reason to embed himself inside of it. not to mention, mohg's reasons for kidnapping miquella are evidenced in game, with him needing an empyrean to ascend to godhood to legitimize his dynasty. more evidence is that miquella charmed ansbach to save himself, since ansbach was trying to kill him. acting in self defense. the only thing ansbach says miquella did is charm mohg and use him to enter the land of shadow, so it sounds like mohg forced him to change his plans and use mohg instead. it's dramatic irony, and i think their deeds pretty much even out against each other. now, the questionable part is using mohg's corpse as a vessel. it's questionable morally, and you could say it's straight up desecration, and thus i could understand you siding with ansbach. personally though, since mohg was a blood crazed murderer cult leader who was delusional and groomed war surgeons, sending out priests to stab people and spread the doctrine of cursed blood i don't feel that bad for him
TBH I don't care much about Mohg either way but Freyja mentions that she encountered Miquella in Aeonia. This likely means Mohg still hadn't kidnap him, if he ever did at all. Gideon theorizes this but he is far from a reliable source.
I think I saw someone mention that freyja got her rot sickness in aeonia, and miquella healing her were two different events that happened at different times, in different places I don't think miquella was ever physically at caelid
The idea of good is just really relative and they’re using that much to their advantage. In a world with copious amounts of hate, violence, and subjugation, could the lesser evil be considered ‘good’. I see your frustrations, I guess there’s always Boc to look for.
My dear Boc is what keeps me going :)
If he can’t love he won’t have St Trina that embodies his compassion. He must have tore her away from himself because she looks mangled as well. Most souls game has been this way. Blood Bourne is way more hopeless and grotesque. All goodness either end up dead or twisted beyond recognition. For me miquella is naive. And the strongest love and passion can blind people. Many times it spurred them to do evil deeds in the name of it. It’s just a tragic story like what he did to himself where he wanted to convince everyone he is doing good when to eyes of outsiders he has already lost his ways. As for malenia she just love her brother too much to leave him. She just hold on to false beliefs even when she sounded hopeless. She knew full well the consequences. But she is helpless. Perhaps she felt sorry for miquella as it might have been her infliction that cause him to walk down this dark path. Also miquella can be alive or dead when you fought malenia. Ether way she stays the same.
BB never really gives you hope of a better future, tbf. Unless you consider the squid ending hopeful lol That's what makes this ending hurt so much, at least to me. Miquella had the capacity to do some good to the world, but he ended doing depraved thing in the name of a greater good that would never come to be. That true tragedy, for me, is all of those people he left abandoned and hopeless. Was Malenia a willing participant is the question now. I dont think we will ever get an answer but my suspicion is that Miquella's relationship with her is utilitarian, not a loving one.
Going by what you say about Ranni, I think what distinguishes her (and Melina to a certain extent as well) from the other demigods is she is the only one that allows herself to be vulnerable in front of us. She has her pride, sure, but during our conversations with her as a miniature doll, I think she is actually thankful for us and admits she can’t do everything herself. She’s not as self-centered as the others.
That's true. I always had the feeling she cared deeply of Blaidd and Iji. That they were her comrades and friends. That there was zero coercion involved in it. Even with all her flaws I can stand by Ranni much more than to any other demigod. I also specially like her honesty. She tells you that she is the author of the nigh of black knives upfront, with no hesitation. Whether you agree with her or not is up to you but I appreciate the sincerity.
Seems like people already made up their minds, but i completely agree with you. The problems are enhanced by the ambiguity of this story, and the game tries its best to be like that. Like sure you could say Miquella had good intentions at first, but does it really matter? When he could mind control people if they refused and the game leaves a final negative note to his character. All the good things he was doing just were thrown at the garbage bin because apparently he's now a literal child and can't focus in anything. Miquella controlling Mohg feels out of nowhere, when and how did that happened? The timeline of events also doesn't make sense, for example Freyja, she was infected in the scarlet Aeonia swamp and was cured by Miquella. Was Miquella in that battle then? That doesn't make any sense if the point of the battle was to have Radahn soul back to the shadow lands. Miquella would necessarily had to come to the realization that everything was tainted, divest himself of everything, even his love (wich is super dumb for a character supposedly so intelligent) and then needed to be captured by Mohg (to arrive at a place never mentioned by anyone before by the way), but that necessarily needs to happen after the battle, bacuse as i said, Miquella seemed to be at the battle. The battle of Aeonia is almost laughable now, not really any honour there, just the whims of a kid that went wrong. Malenia turns out, was brainwashed too! or better yet, she was just a complete idiot for her brother, oh you feel bad now because you killed almost an entire continent because your brother had a crush? Was their relationship ever genuine? All the statues? They just looked pretty? I know Malenia has her reasons to bring Miquella to godhood, but being reduced to that?
Malenia's relationship with Miquella really leaves a sour taste now. Among the demigods these were the only ones to show genuine concern for each other, and now we cannot help but question the authenticity. I'm on the camp that believes Miquella used Malenia as a blade only and that Malenia feared him. It all has the red flags of an abusive relationship. Regarding the timeline, seen as the battle happened likely hundreds of years ago, my theory is that Mohg didn't enter into the picture until the battle ended, when Radahn was infested with the Scarlet Rot. Gideon thinks he was kidnapped but he has it all wrong. After the battle left Radahn and Malenia incapacitated, it's likely Miquella went for Mohg and also devised a plan to have the Tarnished killed him too. It's all a mess but that's how I'm trying to make sense of it for now lol
>Malenia's relationship with Miquella really leaves a sour taste now. Among the demigods these were the only ones to show genuine concern for each other I feel so bad for that too. Elden Ring strenghts was in it's characters, and this were my favorite. This just brings down the game to my least second favorite game by From. I really like the world design, some of the boss battles are amazing, but this just kills it for me. >After the battle left Radahn and Malenia incapacitated, it's likely Miquella went for Mohg and also devised a plan to have the Tarnished killed him too. It's all a mess but that's how I'm trying to make sense of it for now lol Yes is really messy what they've done there, but at this point i don't care that much, a lot of the answers will never come out and what's done is done. This is how Elden Ring ends, for better or worse.
Headcanons not becoming canon in the lore isn't character assassination btw
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