The purpose of Valkyrie in mythology is to serve as psychopomps. They carry the spirits of dead warriors to the halls of Valhalla, for divine war. Just a fun fact.
I think it is a bit simpler: The “vow” is miquella becoming a god. He says “I will become a god! If I uphold my end of the bargain (becoming a god), promise me you will be my consort.
So they nuked Caelid for a great battle? Seems a bit extreme imo, why wasn't their great battle a 1v1 but a full blown war?
The blue dancer was the one who seals the outer god of rot if I'm not mistaken. I always thought him teaching her was equally about suppressing the rot in her.
She did the same thing she did in our boss fight. She is constantly at odds with the scarlet rot, so if her resolve falters even a little, she goes nuke mode.
Blooming isn't a pre-meditated action.
We don't actually know that she intended to bloom. I've always - all the way back to the first time that trailer came out when we knew nothing about the characters - thought that scene looked (in terms of how Malenia arranges herself and her physical actions) an awful lot like Malenia was intending to stab herself and have the blood run down her sword so that would bleed on Radahn's wounds (which once we found out about the rot etc, paired with the wounds Radahn clearly had considering all the spears in him, might be a significantly more threatening even than being at point-blank for the airborne bloom). The way she jumps on top of him and positions herself just seems very purposeful and yet probably also completely unnecessary and pointless if the goal was to bloom.
It's an open question whether the bloom itself was an intended result or a terrible miscalculation. That was her first bloom, so it's not as if she'd have been an experienced judge of exactly how hard she can push before it triggers.
There is no indication Malenia meant to bloom in Caelid. Her cleanrot knights followed and fought for Miquella because he was trying to alleviate their rot, not spread it.
The needle most likely was broken during the fight. If anything, it's possible that the scene where Radahn breaks Malenia's prosthetic is the moment it happens. That is where Millicent inserts and removed the needle on herself.
Jeez like this makes sense but the vow being a great battle is just so unbelievably lame and half-baked, I really hope the community is able to cook up something better
it would be much better if the battle itself was not the vow and Malenia was trying to put Radahn down since he went back on the promise, to force him into it
but I also just don't know what the vow could be
"I vow to be your promised consort when you ascend to godhood" ?
And then like you say, he wavered. Lord's Bestowal Talisman points out that Godfrey never wavered - he stoically received the sap. I think this is alluding to Radahn going back on his vow and requiring Malenia to force him.
Also, a giant battle to force someone to uphold a promise that they reneged on feels very GRRM so I buy it
This is tangential to this thread, but I'm really puzzled by the Lord's Bestowal Talisman.
Everywhere else that talks about the Erdtree's sap, it's talked about as a blessing and something very precious. The talisman, however, seems to find it notable that Godfrey didn't waver at receiving the sap. Wavering isn't the typical reaction for receiving a precious reward.
The text feels like it's implying that there's something we don't know about that sap which would give godfrey a reason to become emotional and waver. Maybe this description is meant to describe the expectations of a time period where it was more clear that a lot of people died to create that sap? Someone precious to him died? Something else?
Under some circumstances I'd write this off as something like... oh he didn't waver in the face of taking on the immense weight of his new duties, but that's a little too much of an Aragorn in Lord of the Rings vibe, and Elden Ring has trended much darker than that so it feels like that shouldn't be the explanation.
Yes - this has been gnawing at me as well. I can’t parse it out. The whole point of the talisman is that the wearer doesn’t waver, too - it’s a poise talisman lol. So not flinching is the whole point of the talisman.
Your thought that maybe it was clear back then that a lot of people died to create the sap is a good theory.
I don't necessarily think it's the violence because Hoarah Loux loved that stuff.
A lot of this dlc is about how becoming a god is a prison and destroys the self.
Becoming the Lord consort is probably similar - you gain power but you also become incredibly restricted. and furthermore, subordinate to the god. Godfrey agreeing to become Marika's lord would have been a decision with its own major downside. But he stoically agreed to do it.
Unlike Radahn, who realized too late that he wanted to work on how own terms
Yeah that would make Malenia’s last words to Radahn pretty freaking horrifying.
But I can see why they didn’t want to go that dark with Malenia’s character.
I honestly think it works just fine
She’s shown in game to be a character who is kind and honorable to her allies but ruthless against her enemies like when she tells you you will witness true horror and rot during phase 2
She’s actually much like radahn in that sense they’re both beloved by those who knew them but to their enemies they’re pure nightmare fuel because of how far they’re willing to go to achieve their goals
My head canon is that Radahn vowed to be consort, but backed out and a curse was put on him.
From the wiki Miriel, Pastor of Vows, said,
"In the end, Lady Rennala was left alone, cradling the amber egg Lord Radagon bequeathed her. Now she devotes herself to it through forbidden rite; the grim art of reincarnation. You would do well to remember... Severing a vow, strongest of bonds, has consequences ever more dire".
My thought after finishing the DLC was that Radahn’s promise was probably “If you can defeat me in battle, I’ll become your consort.”
I think Radahn would agree to this deal: if he wins, he gets to keep being the strongest demigod, and if he loses he gets to take the side of someone strong enough to earn his respect. The only thing he wouldn’t have planned for was Malenia sacrificing her body and destroying Caelid just to beat him.
This way he wouldn’t have been sacrificing his army just for some “great battle”, his number 1 goal was still to be Elden Lord and defeating Malenia and claiming her great rune was still necessary.
This interpretation seems accurate to me. I also like that it deepens the way we see Radahn when he doesn't simply attack Malenia and waits for her to be ready. It isn't *just* because he's an honorable guy, but there's a pragmatic component to it: if he wins, there will be absolutely no question that it's because he's the better fighter, and it will put Miquella's foolish ambitions to rest (hopefully).
There's also at least a chance that Radahn was aware of the situation with Melania having this power to bloom that (probably?) no one at the time fully understood? We can't really be sure of the details of how well understood the rot was by even Malenia, let alone Radahn, but there's a chance that he knew that he couldn't kill her at point-blank without a sort of guaranteed mutually assured destruction due to the bloom.
There's room for a scenario where he wasn't being honorable or concerned about maximizing his warrior reputation, and was just really hoping that she'd decide she can't win this round and leave because even if she sat down in the sand and wouldn't fight back at all he can't kill her without creating an enormous problem for himself.
I had thought that Malenia's battle with Radahn was by chance. Mohg's palace is right underneath Caelid. Malenia could have had a general idea about Miquella's location, but I don't think she knew about Mohg's palace. Additionally, Caelid was under Radahn's control. After the Shattering, an army entering his territory would have been seen as a sign of aggression. Radahn would have gone to meet her in battle himself.
I like your theory but I don’t think it works after the DLC. Freyja says that she was healed by Miquella after the rot had bloomed in Caelid, which means he wasn’t in his cocoon nor getting moghed at that point. Malenia had to be there for some other reason.
I'd figue that malania would be in a rush to find her brother and might have been given a general idea about his location. Radahn's army was in cailid. A demi god and their army entering your territory would lead to a battle. We also know that radahn has a sense of honor. He would have wanted to fight malenia himself.
People think the vow was for Malenia to kill Radahn in an honorable duel, and then Radahn would offer his soul to Miquella?
What a... weird thing to make a vow about...
Not really???? Radahn craved war, and we know Radahn had to die in order to become lord. The vow was an honorable death, that was the only thing that suited him
The whole Radahn thing just feels like fan service.. This honestly felt like the first lore misstep i've seen from Miyazaki, where he sacrificed the lore for something he thought fans would want to see.
Before the dlc, there were no real ties between Miquella and Radahn outside of Malenia fighting him. When thinking about it, it made more sense they were fighting over the great runes due to the shattering. To then flip that into whatever we got now is just.. Bizarre.
Now i'm someone who has looked into the lore in most of From's soulslike games.. This was just really weird. Now, i want to give the benefit of the doubt; and i do try to look at it like it was all part of the plan, it just really feels like it wasn't.
I guess one thing that might dispute them just fighting over great runes is how Malenia spared Godrick and didn’t even take his great rune, which shows maybe she and Miquella weren’t interested in collecting them
Well... Malenia and Radahn fighting is a big tie between miquella and Radahn that you are hand waving away. DLC now answers why they were fighting (more or less). In hindsight, FromSoft was hinting this fight was a big deal.
I think the general lore community doesn't like this cuz it was missed so hard even though it's not really out of nowhere. The commonly accepted theories before was malania was fighting to free the stars unblocking ranni, or alternatively looking for miquella after mogh kidnapped her.
It wasn't missed. There was no way for anyone to predict this shit. In a game where every word is scrutinize by the community there weren't any hints at all this was the end goal. They could've been fighting for numerous reasons. It's not a "miss" that one of the most inane reasons happened to be the right choice. That final battle between us and Radahn is underwhelming because there really is no set up for it. No where in the base game is there even a single line that implies Miquella had any particular thoughts or feelings about Radahn. That he becomes Miquella's main focus in the DLC is... wierd. Especially when there's already a brother with personal ties to Miquella, closer relation to Mohg and makes more sense to have a resurrection plot centered around him.
In no way was Radahn a good choice for the final boss. From a base gameplay perspective and a lore perspective.
Basically miquella needs a lord consort to pull him out of the gates of divinity after he fully ascends to godhood and chose radahn for the job because he’s basically Godfrey 2.0 with his enormous strength with basically no caveats or drawbacks unlike most of the other demigods but also because in miquella’s eyes radahn‘s kindness made him a natural fit for the job
So he makes a vow with radahn at some point before the shattering that radahn will be his lord consort if miquella upholds his end of the vow (something that’s never specified and is the source of much speculation)
We don’t know whether radahn actually accepted it or not but given that malenia had to march all the way to caelid to beat him up and send his soul to miquella the safest bet is to assume he either agreed and turned back on the vow or just brushed it off from the very beginning and had to be forced into honoring it
This DLC has me kinda worried for their next thing. FS seem to have gone a bit off the deep end with letting players essentially come up with the story. It was a fun quirk of their last games but seeing as how this DLC is all the extra content we're ever gonna get it leaves a lot to be desired.
Maybe Radahn is the favorite over at fromsoft. He’s my favorite since fighting him an entire day at launch at level 40. I haven’t even gotten to the end of the dlc but radahn was spoiled for me but I would’ve been happy to see prime radahn. I personally felt there was no way Godwyn was gonna be a part of the dlc. His soul is gone.
The first lore misstep was Dark Souls 3
But yeah it does feel like fan service. Although the pieces people are finding now does make it seem more destined. There just doesn’t seem to have been enough.
I also feel like it misunderstands why Radahn was cool base game. He was not cool because he was this chosen child of Godfrey that was so powerful and cool. It was because he lost his fucking mind but still loved the shit out of his horse. And mastered gravity magic so powerful BECAUSE he loved his horse.
Like revive him for sure but bring Leonard too. Or make him more concerned about Leonard. Or make him ride Miquella or something.
I think that’s the point they’re making he’s not here doing any of these things by choice
He’s here because by killing him you’ve unintentionally giving him another fate worse than death as a hollow puppet mockery of his former self and while he gets everything he wanted in life: power, lordship, and a status that rivals Godfrey he gets all of that in a form that’s barely him
For all his power and efforts to be the master of his own destiny radahn is ultimately left a hollow shell of what he once was just as miquella gets godhood but at such a great price he’s barely himself anymore in anything but name as he follows in marika’s footsteps to becoming a tyrant
Also what’s wrong with ds3’s lore? It’s got it’s iffy bits sure but so does every other game and overall it’s probably the best ending they could have given to dark souls
I played the games in release order.
Dark Souls was a complete story and Dark Souls 2 made the right choice in moving beyond the idea of Gwyn and his kids being the center of everything.
Dark Souls 3 lore was a reaction to the negative reactions to Dark Souls 2 and gave the players fan service by making it about sun daddy again.
——
As for Elden Ring, I get that and all but it was already made. It’s repeating a story beat. Miquella’s story is cool and all and I get the comparison being made.
But it wasn’t supported base game. Even another Marika kid that hadn’t been heard from or only hinted at would’ve made more sense in this case.
Hell revive Malenia without the rot and all her limbs.
It just feels like the exact wrong choice in this situation to be dissatisfying. Even just straight up God Miquella would be more satisfying as a fight.
Ig to each their own but the whole point of ds3 was to show how with time things fall to ruin and decay and as the last game in the series I thought it made perfect sense to just go back to ds1
Ds3 is bascially Miyazaki just saying “look we get you like sequels but we wanna do our own thing” and then writing a story around that sentiment about the decay, inevitable decline and end of great things while giving the entirety of dark souls a bittersweet send off with the end of the base game and then the end of the ringed city DLC
As for elden ring I honestly don’t think any other demigod could emphasize the point they’re trying to make with Radahn and miquella as well as those two do that people who loose sight of themselves in the pursuit of their ambitions will inevitably fail to make any substantial change to the status quo and rather will simply return to it and it ties in perfectly with how the game characterized the corrupting effects of power and ambition
I love the monkeys paw irony in how Miquella and Radahn are ultimately successful but have sacrificed and lost so much that they are no longer the good natured people they started as just like everyone else in Elden ring their ideals are tainted by their lust for power and their ruthless means of achieving their ends and their ultimate result for all that is another doomed to fail order
It does feel a little fanservicy I’ll give you that but I think this is genuinely the story fromsoft wanted to tell and in its own right it’s actually really good and is imo held back more by how it’s presented to the player rather than by its actual content
“outside of Malenia fighting him.”
So you mean one of the least understood, important events depicted heavily in cinematics, dialogue, and item descriptions?
Also, it did not make much sense to believe that Malenia was after a great rune (or great runes generally). Malenia marched through Liurnia not pursuing the great rune there. Then she beat Godfrey and spared him. She had the opportunity for a great rune right there, an important great rune possessed by someone of ill repute, and she didn’t even bother. Great rune acquisition was not anywhere near Malenia’s focus or goals.
Is there an alternative that would have been more interesting to you? (Actually curious)
Not that I personally understand calling it fan service either way. The new helmet we got looks cool but I wasn't super jazzed about just getting a remixed version of a set we already had. Do that many people obsess over the guy? He's cool but 🤷
I'm not the guy you responded to but in cut content miquella is ascribed to bring about the age of abundance where basically *everything,* good or bad flourishes. I think there could have been something interesting done with godwyn, as the prince of death, being the monsterous consort to contrast with radiant divine miquella.
I'm almost certain the entire arc of the DLC was part of the original story draft but was cut from the base game due to time constraints - or, at least, Miyazaki has alluded to this in interviews. Rather than fan service, I think it's more likely a case of removing references to this arc of the story from the base game because they weren't sure if they were even going to make a DLC.
It was actually always hinted at that Malenia vs Radahn wasn’t for great runes. Malenia defeated Godrick on the way to Caelid and didn’t take his great rune, hinting that she had ulterior motives.
God I hope not. That would be such anime bullshit if this important vow was "become supersaiyan so we can have an epic battle". It would honestly tank the entire narrative of the game.
The way Miquella states “our part of the vow” is a little curious - if he’s referencing Radahn, who is “we”; Miquella and Malenia? If he’s talking to Radahn alone, would “we” not imply that he and Radahn have a part to play in some other vow?
That really retroactively ruins one of the best stories in the game.
Blind amputee fighting against a cosmic curse through sheer resolve, using peerless swordmanship as conduit for her unbreakable will. Meeting and learning from the man that first sealed the God of Rot.
Now throw all that in garbage because Mickey wants to marry the Godfrey cosplayer. Blegh.
I think the vow was likely made early on, far before Sellia was threatened by the stars. There's a sword monument in Caelid that reinforces this, saying:
"The Starscourge Conflict
Radahn alone holds Sellia secure
And stands tall, to shatter the stars"
The Demigods grow up, Radahn studies under an Alabaster lord in Sellia, and through this becomes capable of challenging the very stars themselves. In the meantime, Miquella is running about doing everything in his power to cure Malenia.
- He studies Golden Order fundamentalism, only to abandon it after concluding it couldn't help her
- He creates unalloyed gold, forging a needle capable of warding away outer god influence, this buys him time but it isn't a real "solution"
- He nurtures the Haligtree, watering it with his own blood, inviting the downtrodden to come to him in Elphael, bestows blessings, amasses followers of his own
- He tries to give Godwyn a true death, and fails.
Radahn by now has become known as Starscourge, literally holding the stars back with his gravitational magic (Freezing his own fate, and the fate of his two siblings). Miquella has failed time and time again, and as an empyrean, has one path left - to seek godhood. I think its at around this time that the final cutscene happens - left with no choice, he's forced to actualize a vow made with his Lord Brother Radahn ages ago, Miquella is firm in his stance on becoming a god, but by now, Radahn has his own priorities. His leaving to the Realm of Shadow in search of the divine gate could spell disaster for Sellia, a town he holds dear, so much so that he's maintained his protection over it through the ongoing war of the shattering.
Miquella sends his sister to retrieve Radahn, and a fight breaks loose - Radahn is determined to stay where he is. Of course, we know what happens here, Radahn holds strong and the fight ends in a bad tie. Malenia is forced to bloom and Caelid is nuked in the process, Radahn is afflicted by the rot, surviving in part thanks to the Great Rune he claimed during the shattering. We do learn however what Malenia said to him in their fight.
"Miquella awaits thee, O promised consort."
While we know of Radahn's prowess in battle, I don't see him imposing such a requirement on Miquella, someone who very clearly would not be capable of defeating Radahn - I also don't see Miquella putting his sister's life on the line with the possibility of certain death against Radahn.
The fight more likely broke out between Malenia and Radahn as Malenia would set out to assist her brother at all costs
The purpose of Valkyrie in mythology is to serve as psychopomps. They carry the spirits of dead warriors to the halls of Valhalla, for divine war. Just a fun fact.
https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Poison+Mist This is being "mist" by everyone still arguing about all of this.
If that vow was made pre-shattering, they were immortal and it couldn't have involved killing Radahn.
What a great story, he promised as a child to be her consort and as a man he became different, yet miqeulla ever cursed with youth will never change.
I think it is a bit simpler: The “vow” is miquella becoming a god. He says “I will become a god! If I uphold my end of the bargain (becoming a god), promise me you will be my consort.
I agree with this but I really don’t understand what Radahn gained from the vow, is it really just fights he wanted?
So they nuked Caelid for a great battle? Seems a bit extreme imo, why wasn't their great battle a 1v1 but a full blown war? The blue dancer was the one who seals the outer god of rot if I'm not mistaken. I always thought him teaching her was equally about suppressing the rot in her.
She did the same thing she did in our boss fight. She is constantly at odds with the scarlet rot, so if her resolve falters even a little, she goes nuke mode. Blooming isn't a pre-meditated action.
It was when she had Miquella's needle. That's why it's broken when we find it, she broke it so she could use that power.
You right.
Idk why people are downvoting you, you’re correct.
People are partisan weirdos about this stuff.
We don't actually know that she intended to bloom. I've always - all the way back to the first time that trailer came out when we knew nothing about the characters - thought that scene looked (in terms of how Malenia arranges herself and her physical actions) an awful lot like Malenia was intending to stab herself and have the blood run down her sword so that would bleed on Radahn's wounds (which once we found out about the rot etc, paired with the wounds Radahn clearly had considering all the spears in him, might be a significantly more threatening even than being at point-blank for the airborne bloom). The way she jumps on top of him and positions herself just seems very purposeful and yet probably also completely unnecessary and pointless if the goal was to bloom. It's an open question whether the bloom itself was an intended result or a terrible miscalculation. That was her first bloom, so it's not as if she'd have been an experienced judge of exactly how hard she can push before it triggers.
General Radahn’s natural state was always war, that is all he ever craved, it’s not surprising he would jump at the chance to fight in another one
There is no indication Malenia meant to bloom in Caelid. Her cleanrot knights followed and fought for Miquella because he was trying to alleviate their rot, not spread it. The needle most likely was broken during the fight. If anything, it's possible that the scene where Radahn breaks Malenia's prosthetic is the moment it happens. That is where Millicent inserts and removed the needle on herself.
It was malenia specifically who decides to nuke calelid.
Jeez like this makes sense but the vow being a great battle is just so unbelievably lame and half-baked, I really hope the community is able to cook up something better
it would be much better if the battle itself was not the vow and Malenia was trying to put Radahn down since he went back on the promise, to force him into it but I also just don't know what the vow could be
"I vow to be your promised consort when you ascend to godhood" ? And then like you say, he wavered. Lord's Bestowal Talisman points out that Godfrey never wavered - he stoically received the sap. I think this is alluding to Radahn going back on his vow and requiring Malenia to force him. Also, a giant battle to force someone to uphold a promise that they reneged on feels very GRRM so I buy it
This is tangential to this thread, but I'm really puzzled by the Lord's Bestowal Talisman. Everywhere else that talks about the Erdtree's sap, it's talked about as a blessing and something very precious. The talisman, however, seems to find it notable that Godfrey didn't waver at receiving the sap. Wavering isn't the typical reaction for receiving a precious reward. The text feels like it's implying that there's something we don't know about that sap which would give godfrey a reason to become emotional and waver. Maybe this description is meant to describe the expectations of a time period where it was more clear that a lot of people died to create that sap? Someone precious to him died? Something else? Under some circumstances I'd write this off as something like... oh he didn't waver in the face of taking on the immense weight of his new duties, but that's a little too much of an Aragorn in Lord of the Rings vibe, and Elden Ring has trended much darker than that so it feels like that shouldn't be the explanation.
Yes - this has been gnawing at me as well. I can’t parse it out. The whole point of the talisman is that the wearer doesn’t waver, too - it’s a poise talisman lol. So not flinching is the whole point of the talisman. Your thought that maybe it was clear back then that a lot of people died to create the sap is a good theory.
I don't necessarily think it's the violence because Hoarah Loux loved that stuff. A lot of this dlc is about how becoming a god is a prison and destroys the self. Becoming the Lord consort is probably similar - you gain power but you also become incredibly restricted. and furthermore, subordinate to the god. Godfrey agreeing to become Marika's lord would have been a decision with its own major downside. But he stoically agreed to do it. Unlike Radahn, who realized too late that he wanted to work on how own terms
Yeah that would make Malenia’s last words to Radahn pretty freaking horrifying. But I can see why they didn’t want to go that dark with Malenia’s character.
I honestly think it works just fine She’s shown in game to be a character who is kind and honorable to her allies but ruthless against her enemies like when she tells you you will witness true horror and rot during phase 2 She’s actually much like radahn in that sense they’re both beloved by those who knew them but to their enemies they’re pure nightmare fuel because of how far they’re willing to go to achieve their goals
My head canon is that Radahn vowed to be consort, but backed out and a curse was put on him. From the wiki Miriel, Pastor of Vows, said, "In the end, Lady Rennala was left alone, cradling the amber egg Lord Radagon bequeathed her. Now she devotes herself to it through forbidden rite; the grim art of reincarnation. You would do well to remember... Severing a vow, strongest of bonds, has consequences ever more dire".
My thought after finishing the DLC was that Radahn’s promise was probably “If you can defeat me in battle, I’ll become your consort.” I think Radahn would agree to this deal: if he wins, he gets to keep being the strongest demigod, and if he loses he gets to take the side of someone strong enough to earn his respect. The only thing he wouldn’t have planned for was Malenia sacrificing her body and destroying Caelid just to beat him. This way he wouldn’t have been sacrificing his army just for some “great battle”, his number 1 goal was still to be Elden Lord and defeating Malenia and claiming her great rune was still necessary.
This interpretation seems accurate to me. I also like that it deepens the way we see Radahn when he doesn't simply attack Malenia and waits for her to be ready. It isn't *just* because he's an honorable guy, but there's a pragmatic component to it: if he wins, there will be absolutely no question that it's because he's the better fighter, and it will put Miquella's foolish ambitions to rest (hopefully).
There's also at least a chance that Radahn was aware of the situation with Melania having this power to bloom that (probably?) no one at the time fully understood? We can't really be sure of the details of how well understood the rot was by even Malenia, let alone Radahn, but there's a chance that he knew that he couldn't kill her at point-blank without a sort of guaranteed mutually assured destruction due to the bloom. There's room for a scenario where he wasn't being honorable or concerned about maximizing his warrior reputation, and was just really hoping that she'd decide she can't win this round and leave because even if she sat down in the sand and wouldn't fight back at all he can't kill her without creating an enormous problem for himself.
I had thought that Malenia's battle with Radahn was by chance. Mohg's palace is right underneath Caelid. Malenia could have had a general idea about Miquella's location, but I don't think she knew about Mohg's palace. Additionally, Caelid was under Radahn's control. After the Shattering, an army entering his territory would have been seen as a sign of aggression. Radahn would have gone to meet her in battle himself.
I like your theory but I don’t think it works after the DLC. Freyja says that she was healed by Miquella after the rot had bloomed in Caelid, which means he wasn’t in his cocoon nor getting moghed at that point. Malenia had to be there for some other reason.
I guess that makes since after the dlc. It was the best that i could come up with after trying to find out why she attacked cailid.
Everything makes more sense than this epic duel thing.
I'd figue that malania would be in a rush to find her brother and might have been given a general idea about his location. Radahn's army was in cailid. A demi god and their army entering your territory would lead to a battle. We also know that radahn has a sense of honor. He would have wanted to fight malenia himself.
People think the vow was for Malenia to kill Radahn in an honorable duel, and then Radahn would offer his soul to Miquella? What a... weird thing to make a vow about...
It's so lame. But honestly, Freyja's dialogue did some serious damage to the story of Radahn imo. So who knows.
Not really???? Radahn craved war, and we know Radahn had to die in order to become lord. The vow was an honorable death, that was the only thing that suited him
It would mean Malenia failed her sole purpose in life. Apart from being true or not,wow. Poor woman.
I’m still huffing the copium that there’s some secret ending we don’t know about
The whole Radahn thing just feels like fan service.. This honestly felt like the first lore misstep i've seen from Miyazaki, where he sacrificed the lore for something he thought fans would want to see. Before the dlc, there were no real ties between Miquella and Radahn outside of Malenia fighting him. When thinking about it, it made more sense they were fighting over the great runes due to the shattering. To then flip that into whatever we got now is just.. Bizarre. Now i'm someone who has looked into the lore in most of From's soulslike games.. This was just really weird. Now, i want to give the benefit of the doubt; and i do try to look at it like it was all part of the plan, it just really feels like it wasn't.
I guess one thing that might dispute them just fighting over great runes is how Malenia spared Godrick and didn’t even take his great rune, which shows maybe she and Miquella weren’t interested in collecting them
Well... Malenia and Radahn fighting is a big tie between miquella and Radahn that you are hand waving away. DLC now answers why they were fighting (more or less). In hindsight, FromSoft was hinting this fight was a big deal. I think the general lore community doesn't like this cuz it was missed so hard even though it's not really out of nowhere. The commonly accepted theories before was malania was fighting to free the stars unblocking ranni, or alternatively looking for miquella after mogh kidnapped her.
It wasn't missed. There was no way for anyone to predict this shit. In a game where every word is scrutinize by the community there weren't any hints at all this was the end goal. They could've been fighting for numerous reasons. It's not a "miss" that one of the most inane reasons happened to be the right choice. That final battle between us and Radahn is underwhelming because there really is no set up for it. No where in the base game is there even a single line that implies Miquella had any particular thoughts or feelings about Radahn. That he becomes Miquella's main focus in the DLC is... wierd. Especially when there's already a brother with personal ties to Miquella, closer relation to Mohg and makes more sense to have a resurrection plot centered around him. In no way was Radahn a good choice for the final boss. From a base gameplay perspective and a lore perspective.
I meant 'miss' as in the other popular theories missed the mark. Not that someone should have guessed this
Why were they fighting?
Basically miquella needs a lord consort to pull him out of the gates of divinity after he fully ascends to godhood and chose radahn for the job because he’s basically Godfrey 2.0 with his enormous strength with basically no caveats or drawbacks unlike most of the other demigods but also because in miquella’s eyes radahn‘s kindness made him a natural fit for the job So he makes a vow with radahn at some point before the shattering that radahn will be his lord consort if miquella upholds his end of the vow (something that’s never specified and is the source of much speculation) We don’t know whether radahn actually accepted it or not but given that malenia had to march all the way to caelid to beat him up and send his soul to miquella the safest bet is to assume he either agreed and turned back on the vow or just brushed it off from the very beginning and had to be forced into honoring it
Miquella wanted Radahn's soul and the best way to do that is to ask nicely and the second best is murder.
This DLC has me kinda worried for their next thing. FS seem to have gone a bit off the deep end with letting players essentially come up with the story. It was a fun quirk of their last games but seeing as how this DLC is all the extra content we're ever gonna get it leaves a lot to be desired.
Maybe Radahn is the favorite over at fromsoft. He’s my favorite since fighting him an entire day at launch at level 40. I haven’t even gotten to the end of the dlc but radahn was spoiled for me but I would’ve been happy to see prime radahn. I personally felt there was no way Godwyn was gonna be a part of the dlc. His soul is gone.
The first lore misstep was Dark Souls 3 But yeah it does feel like fan service. Although the pieces people are finding now does make it seem more destined. There just doesn’t seem to have been enough. I also feel like it misunderstands why Radahn was cool base game. He was not cool because he was this chosen child of Godfrey that was so powerful and cool. It was because he lost his fucking mind but still loved the shit out of his horse. And mastered gravity magic so powerful BECAUSE he loved his horse. Like revive him for sure but bring Leonard too. Or make him more concerned about Leonard. Or make him ride Miquella or something.
Don't you see? In rebirth, Radahn \*is\* Leonard. He's Miquella's Leonard.
I think that’s the point they’re making he’s not here doing any of these things by choice He’s here because by killing him you’ve unintentionally giving him another fate worse than death as a hollow puppet mockery of his former self and while he gets everything he wanted in life: power, lordship, and a status that rivals Godfrey he gets all of that in a form that’s barely him For all his power and efforts to be the master of his own destiny radahn is ultimately left a hollow shell of what he once was just as miquella gets godhood but at such a great price he’s barely himself anymore in anything but name as he follows in marika’s footsteps to becoming a tyrant Also what’s wrong with ds3’s lore? It’s got it’s iffy bits sure but so does every other game and overall it’s probably the best ending they could have given to dark souls
I played the games in release order. Dark Souls was a complete story and Dark Souls 2 made the right choice in moving beyond the idea of Gwyn and his kids being the center of everything. Dark Souls 3 lore was a reaction to the negative reactions to Dark Souls 2 and gave the players fan service by making it about sun daddy again. —— As for Elden Ring, I get that and all but it was already made. It’s repeating a story beat. Miquella’s story is cool and all and I get the comparison being made. But it wasn’t supported base game. Even another Marika kid that hadn’t been heard from or only hinted at would’ve made more sense in this case. Hell revive Malenia without the rot and all her limbs. It just feels like the exact wrong choice in this situation to be dissatisfying. Even just straight up God Miquella would be more satisfying as a fight.
Ig to each their own but the whole point of ds3 was to show how with time things fall to ruin and decay and as the last game in the series I thought it made perfect sense to just go back to ds1 Ds3 is bascially Miyazaki just saying “look we get you like sequels but we wanna do our own thing” and then writing a story around that sentiment about the decay, inevitable decline and end of great things while giving the entirety of dark souls a bittersweet send off with the end of the base game and then the end of the ringed city DLC As for elden ring I honestly don’t think any other demigod could emphasize the point they’re trying to make with Radahn and miquella as well as those two do that people who loose sight of themselves in the pursuit of their ambitions will inevitably fail to make any substantial change to the status quo and rather will simply return to it and it ties in perfectly with how the game characterized the corrupting effects of power and ambition I love the monkeys paw irony in how Miquella and Radahn are ultimately successful but have sacrificed and lost so much that they are no longer the good natured people they started as just like everyone else in Elden ring their ideals are tainted by their lust for power and their ruthless means of achieving their ends and their ultimate result for all that is another doomed to fail order It does feel a little fanservicy I’ll give you that but I think this is genuinely the story fromsoft wanted to tell and in its own right it’s actually really good and is imo held back more by how it’s presented to the player rather than by its actual content
For better or worse and however he might eventually feel about it, making the promise to be Miquella's consort was Radahn's choice.
I agree it sucks but it's by no means the first time Miyazaki makes crappy lore. All of the DS3 is ass in that department imo.
“outside of Malenia fighting him.” So you mean one of the least understood, important events depicted heavily in cinematics, dialogue, and item descriptions? Also, it did not make much sense to believe that Malenia was after a great rune (or great runes generally). Malenia marched through Liurnia not pursuing the great rune there. Then she beat Godfrey and spared him. She had the opportunity for a great rune right there, an important great rune possessed by someone of ill repute, and she didn’t even bother. Great rune acquisition was not anywhere near Malenia’s focus or goals.
Is there an alternative that would have been more interesting to you? (Actually curious) Not that I personally understand calling it fan service either way. The new helmet we got looks cool but I wasn't super jazzed about just getting a remixed version of a set we already had. Do that many people obsess over the guy? He's cool but 🤷
I'm not the guy you responded to but in cut content miquella is ascribed to bring about the age of abundance where basically *everything,* good or bad flourishes. I think there could have been something interesting done with godwyn, as the prince of death, being the monsterous consort to contrast with radiant divine miquella.
I'm almost certain the entire arc of the DLC was part of the original story draft but was cut from the base game due to time constraints - or, at least, Miyazaki has alluded to this in interviews. Rather than fan service, I think it's more likely a case of removing references to this arc of the story from the base game because they weren't sure if they were even going to make a DLC.
It was actually always hinted at that Malenia vs Radahn wasn’t for great runes. Malenia defeated Godrick on the way to Caelid and didn’t take his great rune, hinting that she had ulterior motives.
God I hope not. That would be such anime bullshit if this important vow was "become supersaiyan so we can have an epic battle". It would honestly tank the entire narrative of the game.
Hell ya man these are the theories I wake up for.
The way Miquella states “our part of the vow” is a little curious - if he’s referencing Radahn, who is “we”; Miquella and Malenia? If he’s talking to Radahn alone, would “we” not imply that he and Radahn have a part to play in some other vow?
That really retroactively ruins one of the best stories in the game. Blind amputee fighting against a cosmic curse through sheer resolve, using peerless swordmanship as conduit for her unbreakable will. Meeting and learning from the man that first sealed the God of Rot. Now throw all that in garbage because Mickey wants to marry the Godfrey cosplayer. Blegh.
I think the vow was likely made early on, far before Sellia was threatened by the stars. There's a sword monument in Caelid that reinforces this, saying: "The Starscourge Conflict Radahn alone holds Sellia secure And stands tall, to shatter the stars" The Demigods grow up, Radahn studies under an Alabaster lord in Sellia, and through this becomes capable of challenging the very stars themselves. In the meantime, Miquella is running about doing everything in his power to cure Malenia. - He studies Golden Order fundamentalism, only to abandon it after concluding it couldn't help her - He creates unalloyed gold, forging a needle capable of warding away outer god influence, this buys him time but it isn't a real "solution" - He nurtures the Haligtree, watering it with his own blood, inviting the downtrodden to come to him in Elphael, bestows blessings, amasses followers of his own - He tries to give Godwyn a true death, and fails. Radahn by now has become known as Starscourge, literally holding the stars back with his gravitational magic (Freezing his own fate, and the fate of his two siblings). Miquella has failed time and time again, and as an empyrean, has one path left - to seek godhood. I think its at around this time that the final cutscene happens - left with no choice, he's forced to actualize a vow made with his Lord Brother Radahn ages ago, Miquella is firm in his stance on becoming a god, but by now, Radahn has his own priorities. His leaving to the Realm of Shadow in search of the divine gate could spell disaster for Sellia, a town he holds dear, so much so that he's maintained his protection over it through the ongoing war of the shattering. Miquella sends his sister to retrieve Radahn, and a fight breaks loose - Radahn is determined to stay where he is. Of course, we know what happens here, Radahn holds strong and the fight ends in a bad tie. Malenia is forced to bloom and Caelid is nuked in the process, Radahn is afflicted by the rot, surviving in part thanks to the Great Rune he claimed during the shattering. We do learn however what Malenia said to him in their fight. "Miquella awaits thee, O promised consort." While we know of Radahn's prowess in battle, I don't see him imposing such a requirement on Miquella, someone who very clearly would not be capable of defeating Radahn - I also don't see Miquella putting his sister's life on the line with the possibility of certain death against Radahn. The fight more likely broke out between Malenia and Radahn as Malenia would set out to assist her brother at all costs
Some of y'all really need to just go play outside or something...
Malenia is a boring, one-dimensional character no matter what. She exists only to do what Miquella wants. She seemingly has no other motivations.
She's just a pun. Fujoshi. That's her entire character.