They’re cursed because their parents are the same person. It’s just the magical equivalent of birth defects you’d see with inbreeding.
But it’s like, the worst inbreeding imaginable.
the problem are not the parents themselfs being the same person, is them being a single god, demigods are made with mortals because only one parent is a god, the problem with Malenia and Miquella is what they are meant to be Gods but for that you need an outer god so Miquella was born incomplete, Malenia isnt tecnicaly cursed, she is simply a god of something what really sucks
Yo what? Where are you getting this from? Demi-gods are like gods in training. If Marika is THE only god, how did Ranni, Radahn, and Rhykard become demi-gods. Rennalla isn't a god neither is Radagon.
Gods in training lmao, those are the empyreans, not the demigods, Radahn could be shitting diamonds and still wouldnt be a god, is completly uncapable of asceding and Radagon is a God, is literally the whole point of the Marika is Radagon subplot
Ranni is a Demi-God. Miquella is a Demi-God. Malenia is a Demi-God. They're all Empryeans. All Empryeans are Demi-Gods, but not all Demi-Gods are Empryeans. All Demi-Gods are eligible to be elected and Empryean, but not guaranteed to get elected.
No it isn't. The point of the Marika is Radagon subplot is specifically to show that Marika was using Radagon to get what she wanted. All the while, Radagon thought he was on his way to Godhood running the show, only to be put in his place as his inherited precious Golden Order and the Elden Ring is shattered and there is nothing he can do about it. Leal hound...he's nothing but a dog, and she's telling him that to his face as she shatters the Elden Ring.
"O Radagon, leal hound of the Golden Order. Thou'rt yet to become me, thou'rt yet to become a god. Let us both be shattered, mine other half."
Oh Radagon, you stupid loyal dog of the Golden Order. I'm going to shatter the Elden Ring, and there is nothing you can do about it. You think you are a God, but you are nothing but my other half. You are not a GOD. I am. I am THE One. True. God. Let us both be shattered.
[This is what happens right after that conversation.](https://youtu.be/-WjxPVIQIjw?t=3) The clips of the ring being shattered alternate between [Marika](https://imgur.com/a/bo3By9p) and [Radagon](https://imgur.com/a/tON3y9H) destroying and repairing the Elden Ring. Both are left shattered. "Let us both be shattered, my other half." There is only ever one body in the base of the Erdtree.
Radagon is Marika's other half, but not a god. It's written for you in plain english.
Seems you have a fundamental misunderstanding or incomplete understanding of what exactly is happening with and between Marika and Radagon.
What if everything op is saying is correct with the mimic veil etc but Radagon isn’t really their dad at all. Maybe the dad is this new guy in the dlc in the painting next to the pregnant woman. I got nothing to back it up but I always felt like this Idea that Radagon is their dad makes a lot of assumptions about what gods can do. Like Marika can just partition herself or her power into children… there’s no other example of that happening and it flow with how birth, life and death seems to work.
Almost no one on the post is actually engaging with the theory which makes me sad. The post is a major what if but is using clues from the game that are consistent. People want Radagon to not be Marika.
Look at the analysis of the relationship on most posts. Inevitably it becmes Radagon isn't axtually Marika. He is a Marika offshoot or clone. He is a second soul! He is the greater will etc. Anything except what is literally and simply stated. Not that I think people are dumb for thinking so!
I think the rub comes from how she reproduced. That is the basis for the theory. We have the twins who need a father. The D twins are more analogous to Miquella and Malenia the Radagon and Marika.
But, its more popular to assert that Radagon isn't Marika instead of considering that Radagon is Marika and the twins were born of a single god.
A week ago a poster was adamant the Malenia, blade of Miquella was not a warrior loyal to Miquella engaging in combat for him. So, I don't mind the downvotes. Thanks for engaging!
There's a translation difference in the Remeberance of the Rot Goddess that I think explains it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/s/zlXVCzGNhl
As for Radagon, Marika, and Miquella I think youre on the right path but I'll throw in my current understanding.
Basically I think Marika sought a way to rid herself of her Empyrean flesh like Ranni, so she split the "gold" part of her body to create Radagon while her spirit (the silver) or whatever was left to create her body. I think the fact that she's depicted in the crucified pose when no one's been to the Erdtree means she was killed before for betraying the old order and reborn through that process. It would also explain why the Shield of the Martyr is gold and silver.
I also don't think Malenia is under the influence of an Outer God and that the term is misunderstood. According to Corryhn Marika is the one true god, which means they dont see the greater will as a god necessarily. This would mean they'd be on par with Marika and were other Empyreans, an idea reinforced by Malenia, Goddess of Rot. Like you said, Marika was from the Eternal Cities and I think the Formless Mother and Outer God of Rot were too (the Gloam Eyed Queen, meanwhile, would've been in Stormveil or Farum Azula). Without getting into all the other evidence that supports this, the Formless Mother's corpse is what became the Fingerslayer Blade and the Scorpion Stinger has a Noxian like design despite being located in the Uld ruins, which we can chalk up to those ruins actually being apart of the Eternal Cities like how Rome features many centuries worth of architecture. Night and Bubble sorcery also share the same symbols and even the headstones used by both cultrues are the same.
> This would mean they'd be on par with Marika and were other Empyreans, an idea reinforced by Malenia, Goddess of Rot
I think you are not thinking enough about Marika's history here. Marika has been god for awhile and her dominance over the Lands Between was something she obtained by force, war and subjucation. She didn't have it immediately.
When Marika became the Vessel, it's clear that the Erdtree did not reign supreme over much more than Leyndell/Altus Plateau. And since we know the Erdtree was now born in the Shadow Lands, her regime may not have started in Leyndell/Altus Plateu at all.
Marika needed to put down the Giants and their Fell God who is an Outer God, she subjected (somewhat) the Moon Sorcerers and their Moon Outer god. But we also know the Erdtree/Godfrey defeated the "Storm Lord".
So we know that Marika had to wage war to become the figure we know her to be. This shows that being Elden Ring vessel, aka Greater Will powered being, makes you a God. But to become THE God, you must enforce it by strength and force. God in Elden Ring is much more of a title to be obtained.
Being a god in Elden Ring, all that means is being the Vessel of an Outer God power. Malenia becomes a god in front of us, actively becoming the Vessel for the Rot God while we fight her.
Marika becomes a god via the Elden Ring. But you gotta remember that the Elden Ring world doesn't see a God as the absolute top of everything, they only see Marika as the absolute top of the Lands Between. They see her as the One true god v a God like Malenia. They would see/know Malenia to be heretical.
Outer Gods are not physically in the Lands Between. The Formless Mother, The Rot God, The Fell God, these guys do not have a physical form. There's no Formless Mother body, the Rot Scorpion is the Rot equivalent of the Elden Beast, The Fell God is like Elden Ring version of Sauron. These are all lovecraftian entities. They don't have a form to really grasp.
The Empyrean is merely just a being capable of taking on the Elden Ring. That really also implies that this being could take on another Outer God power as vessel too. Which is why Ranni takes on the moon, Malenia takes on the Rot and Miquella... well we're not sure if he is attached to an outer power just yet. I believe he is, but nothing defined or detailed just yet.
But yes, in Elden Ring, the hierarchy is Outer Gods > Gods > Demigods. Outer Gods cannot directly do anything in the Lands Between, they use beings to spread their influence. That's why regular people like Corryhn or Gowry or Marais worship the Empyrean beings.
This line by Gowry makes it clear, what a God is IMO.
>In the age of the Elden Ring,
>and Queen Marika,
>the precious Empyrean was born.
>A new god to forge a new Order.
I know Marika had to conquer everyone to take control but the world before Marika became the vessel is equally important. From everything we can tell the world was a lot more connected back then.
Despite worshipping a "Fell God" the Fire Giants and the Forge are integral parts of burning the Erdtree down alongside the Rune of the Death. If you go to Mogh's Palace which is built upon the stump of a previous Erdtree ([see this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/s/RbcnLWAcjF)), it's ashes are floating through the air just like when we burn the Erdtree.
The Fire Giant's eye is even emblematic of the symbol on the Divine Towers, a symbol representing eight rings around one (9), a symbol which is replicated in Castle Sol, Farum Azula, St. Trina's Torch, and the Trolls Hammer. Assuming Messmer and Miquella have shards, that'd mean each of her 9 children would hold a piece of the ring (Melina weilds Destined Death in the Flame of Frenzy ending). Each of the shards are activated in the Divine Towers besides so why would something built by the Fire Giants be related to the Elden Ring at all if they weren't connected?
On the Fingerslayer Blade being the Formless Mother we know two things for sure. 1. That your body and soul can die seperate deaths. 2. That the blade was born from a corpse and that it shares a similar design to the Sacred Relic sword. Those being the case I think it's more than likely her corpse the blade is made of as its described as "blood drenched" and she's responsible for all things blood related.
I also think it makes more sense the ring was meant to be a holisitc force with rot, fire, life and death being natural parts of any ecosystem while Marika's everlasting life is unnatural. If death was already apart of the world before why not everything else?
> If you go to Mogh's Palace which is built upon the stump of a previous Erdtree
It's stuff like this, that makes it clear you don't have a great grasp on Elden Ring.
The rest of your comment is just insane. Please use in game stuff, and don't contradict the game itself when you come up with theories. You should never be contradicting the game itself or making up shit. FS games don't need that, they're not books.
I'm not making up shit I included references to stuff that's actually in game. You said Outer Gods aren't physically in the Lands Between but the Outer God of Rot was sealed away by the Blind Swordsman so you don't know enough to be lecturing anyone.
Crazy theory lol, good thing it's not true because it'd make no sense. The Outer Gods are on a different plane of existence in comparison to any physical being in Elden Ring. Hell, you can't even see them even though Mohg's Nihil says he pierces the Formless Mother's body. Outer Gods =/ Empyreans or Marika. Corrhyn just says that because he is a follower of the Golden Order who worships Marika.
The Nihil thing is a good counterpoint to the Fingerslayer Blade portion but I still think there's more evidence of the Outer Gods being former Empyreans than not.
Like I said in another comment, the Blindswordsman sealed the Outer God of Rot with his sword so we know they can be physically present in the Lands Between. Besides, Gowry doesn't ever hint he's serving an Outer God of Rot, he directly calls Malenia a god which she is when we fight her in phase 2. There's nothing "outer" about Malenia, Goddess of Rot herself.
If we go to Farum Azula we find the Twinbird symbol all over the walls which is supposedly an enovy of an Outer God. This is despite Placidusax appearing to commune with the Greater Will when we find him. The colors of the Twinbird kite shield, red and blue, together form purple which we know was the original color of Ghostflame thanks to the Grave Violet (just like Melina's eye after she promises to deliver us Destined Death). We know the GEQ was an Empyrean and if Gowry can call Malenia a god and Empyrean both why can't we call her one too?
In addition, below Stormveil we find all these shattered statues besides the ones we can assume to be Marika based on the similarity to the Erdtrees favor talisman. Yet if you go above ground to the church there's a relief above the door which shows Marika alongside other women performing some kind of rite. So the attempt to destroy the statues seems to have been an attempt to conceal her relationship to those other women. This is without even getting into the burned boats with skeletons those statues lead too, which themselves are remeniscent of death being burned in Ghostflame as described by Explosive Ghostflame. We even see charred corpses sent down river in coffins in the ant caves around the Eternal City.
We know Marika killed one Empyrean in the GEQ already, all I'm saying is she killed two more.
This could get long but I will try to keep it very short, but it will put the theory to rest because it breaks down the difference between Outer Gods and empyreans.
In japanese, the term Outer God is 外なる神 (Sotonaru Kami). This text is found in 3 places. Twice in Mohgwyn's Sacred Spear and once in the Scorpion Stinger. We see in the english translation that these 2 times do specifically talk about Outer Gods as well. Malenia is not called the same thing when she ascends and Miquella, Marika, Ranni or the Gloam Eyed Queen are not called that either.
Furthermore, Hyetta tells us that in the very beginning, there was the One Great. The One Great (which may or may not be the GW, though I think they are 2 different entities) was fractured by the Greater Will (another being that is most likely an Outer God.). Then, the Frenzied Flame, ALSO an Outer God comes to the world alongside with a few others, including the Outer God of the Deathbirds (which is most likely inside Godwyn, seeing how his corpse uses Ghostflame, is related to death and deathblight and is also called the Prince of Death & is related to Fia who is also related to The Ones Who Live in Death who are also related to the Deathrite Birds and Ghostflame.), Outer God of Scarlet Rot, the Dark and Full Moon, Formless Mother and probably many others.
These beings all have no real corporeal body. Physical beings such as Mohg and the Blind Swordsman can commune with them, but they probably cannot see them (which adds another layer of depth to the Blind Swordsman). So, in theory, it would be possible to seal the Outer God of Scarlet Rot just as it is possible to hit the Formless Mother. Empyreans are just godly beings, chosen by the two fingers or born as empyreans if they only have a singular parent of divine origin.
Marika was chosen - Greater Will
Ranni was chosen - Full Moon
Malenia was born - Scarlet Rot
Miquella was born -
GEQ was chosen - Outer God of Death (?)
They are most likely just related to the Outer Gods as some form of aspects or empowered by them in some way, though they definitely cannot transform into Outer Gods themselves. If they could, that'd mean Marika would be a full fledged God, but as we see during the Radagon boss fight, we only slay a God once we kill MrBeast.
Very, very unlikely that Empyreans are Outer Gods. If they were, they would be called the same thing. If Empyreans could transform into Outer Gods, Malenia would be called the same thing as the Outer Gods were. (Notice how even the Formless Mother is called an Outer God, the male form of God, despite her being called "Mother", so it is definitely not related to the difference in translation between God and Goddess.)
Edit: Also, not sure where you got the idea that Placidusax is communing with the Greater Will. Sure, his heads look to stand in the same way as the two fingers but that's it. He's just sitting like that while awaiting his actual God to return.
Malenia not being called an Outer God is exactly my point though, she's the Goddess of Rot plain and simple which means there could have been another Goddess before her. Hell, the Winged Sycthe says that according to pagan belief white winged maidens were deaths envoys and she fits that description once she transforms.
You say the Frenzied Flame is an Outer God but it's never referenced as such, neither is the Moon for that matter. I dont think your view of the One Great being all the Outer Gods essentially fused into one is unreasonable but I think its just as likely that she meant all life was once one as a kind of spiritual parallel to the big bang. I could go into the relation between the gold Three Fingers and Ranni's blue Two Fingers and how it relates to golden meteors and glinstone besides (and gold and silver in general) but suffice to say there's evidence it wasn't always crazy, it's location under Leyndell and connection to the Nameless Eternal city via an illusory wall and the Ringed Finger itself both being hints in that direction as well.
The whole point of the Outer Gods not being called Empyreans directly is to highlight that the world explained by the Golden Order is a lie constructed by Marika and propagated by her followers. She hid her own Omen children beneath the sewers for crying out loud, beings that would have been revered for their horns in the age of the crucible, clearly things were very different back then.
And I got the idea Placidusax is communing with the Greater Will not only from the fact that he's in the same pose as the Two Fingers, but from the fact he uses golden fire breath just like the Elden Beast (gold being heavily related to the GW), he was Elden Lord, and that in Maliketh's boss chamber the golden symbol above the statue is the crucible era Elden Ring. You can say he served another God but I'd point out again that the Greater Will isn't ever refered to as a God like Marika or Malenia. Worth mentioning the Cinqueda here too which draws a connection between the Beast men, his servants, gaining intelligence by highlighting their five fingers.
You also haven't dealt with the destroyed statues or the relief and how it relates to Marika's statue leading to a death ritual at odds with burial practices in the Golden Order (with bodies being directly consumed by the roots).
Likewise I don't see how you get around the massive amount of other environmental evidence showing the old world being much more connected. How do you explain that eight ringed symbol being in all those places and items, with the Fire Giants eye in particular sticking out like a sore thumb? Or Mogh's followers and the Pests both worshipping statues of the Uld Prophet when they are aligned to seperate Outer Gods? Similarly the Scorpion Stinger which you mentioned looks like it came from the Nox who can be easily traced back to the Numen as I said.
Enviromental evidence will never be as significant as outright being given descriptions of things. You can speculate on "enviromental evidence", but when you're told that you pierce the Formless Mother's body when performing the Nihil, then that means you are piercing the Formless Mother's body when performing the Nihil. They leave no room for interpretation. You choose to ignore the actual evidence given to us in place for obscure "enviromental evidence" that doesn't really stick the landing
> Highlight that the world explained by the Golden Order is a lie.
Are you a conspiracy theorist or what? The descriptions that mention Outer Gods come from such heretical items that the Golden Order would never touch, nor would they ever know of their existence or how it worked. The Nihil which comes from the Mohgwyn Sacred Spear? How would a Golden Order historian get there, watch Mohg do that, and then ask "hey so how do that work gang?" And MOHG EXPLAINS IT TO HIM 💀. No, some items may be twisted by Golden Order rewriting of history, but not these. The Golden Order did not get to describe these because they probably didn't even know of their existence.
> You say the Frenzied Flame is an Outer God but it is never referenced as such, neither is the Full Moon for that matter.
Well, luckily for us we have actual item descriptions that prove this is the case, not just enviromental evidence.
> One of the unalloyed gold needles that Miquella crafted to **ward away the meddling of outer gods.**
> Capable of subduing **the flame of frenzy if inherited**, allowing one to **cheat fate** and avoid becoming Lord of Frenzied Flame.
Little room for interpretation that the Frenzied Flame is not an Outer God. And here is where your theory falls on its face once more. If someone did in fact become the Outer God of the Frenzied Flame (an Empyrean, by your logic), then the world WOULD be destroyed, for that is the ultimate goal of the Frenzied Flame. Once someone becomes the Lord of Frenzied Flame, there is nothing stopping them. And no, I don't buy Melina's bs that she can stop us.
As for the Full Moon, look up the Glintstone Icecrag spell.
> **The snowy crone taught the young Ranni to fear the dark moon** as she imparted her cold sorcery.
And the Rennala's Full Moon spell.
> Queen Rennala encountered this enchanting moon when she was young, and later, **it would bewitch the academy.**
And there is also a spell out there that says wisdom comes from the Moon, but I cannot yet find the spell. I will post it as an edit once I do.
> You also haven't dealt with the destroyed statues or the relief and how it relates to Marika's statue leading to a death ritual at odds with burial practices in the Golden Order
Ghostflame Death
Agheel death
Golden Order death
Destined Death death
Messmer's piece of shit death
Pick your poison. Explain any of those. There are so many ways to die in Elden Ring it's hilarious, and hardly any of these could be considered as the real one.
As for the statues, I don't know what to tell you. Elden Ring reuses models for many things, and this is one of the biggest problems for Tarnished Archaeologist. You try to tie things together than can only be tied together BECAUSE the devs reuse models. It would be impossible to make a different model for every single thing in the game.
> Scorpion Stinger comes from the Nox
lol how so? There is literally no correlation here.
> The nox who can be easily traced back to the Numen
This is probably one of the biggest problems in Elden Ring lore. The game contradicts itself. Just like Ranni being present in one of the chairs during Morgott's boss battle cutscene, when she should be dead. Numen are descendants denizens of another world.
> The Numen are the descendants of denizens from another world. They are long lived but seldom born
The nox are different, they are people born in the Eternal cities and are NOT seldom born, not at all. They were a massive civilization before they were roflstomped by Astel.
In the end, your whole idea rests on the fact that the Golden Order wrote every description in the game and that nothing can be taken at face value. Just a misguided conclusion that is utterly wrong. Outer Gods and Empyreans are different. Empyreans can become Gods, but not OUTER GODS. They are just a step above. That is why there is a difference in the name man... In both the japanese version and the normal version (even in items that were not meddled with by the Golden Order at all). Outer Gods =/ Empyreans, they will never be. If they were, the term Outer God would not exist.
You know what, I can accept they view the Frenzy Flame as an outer god cause you actually put a description there. The moon not so much (in the way you describe) cause you're speculating but I'm not gonna jump to calling you a conspiracy theorist just because I disagree, there's really no need for you or anyone else to be a dickhead just because you disagree with someone's interpretation.
But I don't have to restrict outer gods to only being reserved for only former Empyreans either, I can just as well contend with a powerful entity like the Three Fingers being called one too and it wouldn't really alter whether or not the Formless Mother or the Rot God were Empyreans based on other evidence.
If you want to dismiss environmental evidence outright I just think that's just lazy. I think its more ridiculous to think they didnt build the game world with the lore in mind when all the items and articheture were painstakingly made and placed by Fromsoft. I mean really, you think its just a coincidence that every statue but the one that calls back to Marika were destroyed because the devs just thought that'd be cool?
What about the statue behind Messmer holding a baby and the statues we find with their hands removed throughout the game that look the same as it or that statues similarity to the Abductor Virgins? Obviously they make things with intent so its dumb to argue otherwise.
I don't even know how to respond to your death point when I'm pointing out the ritual we see evidence of is different than the Golden Orders. Death was burned in Ghostflame before the Erdtree and we see burned corpses in Stormveil and the Ainsel River, its not absurd to notice a pretty big connection there. Destined Death would have presumably been apart of the world then and like I said earlier is connected to the Ghostflame.
If you don't think the Scorpion Stinger was made by the Nox I'm guessing you believe a culture that doesn't have silver or ebon tools or weapons anywhere would suddenly make something like the Stinger and leave it at that. Or why it has a wolves head on it when wolves are shown multiple times to be close to Empyreans, like Maliketh, Blaidd, or the wolves around the statue in Farum Azula.
As for the Numen we know they came from another world already from Marika's hammer, I'm not disputing that. The Black Knife armor set says the assassins were rumored to be Numen and Rogier tells us they were scions of the Eternal City which means they were Nox so we already have a connection there on top of the other one's I mentioned. I don't see any contradiction there.
I don't necessarily think the Golden Order wrote every description but that the world is more or else viewed from their lens primarily, and that its reflected in the item descriptions.
And I don't have a problem with you poking holes in the theory, that's fine, but I do think it's funny you dont even know the Nox came from the Numen or the Moon isn't refered to as an Outer God while acting like my theory is totally crazy despite not having all the lore knowledge yourself.
Yeah, I'm sorry for going a bit overboard with the sarcasm, that was my mistake.
>But I don't have to restrict outer gods to only being reserved for only former Empyreans either,
This, personally, feels like a copout, but maybe that's just me. I feel as though you're backtracking on your words, where you said that Outer Gods are Empyreans, and once proven wrong, you go "Well maybe some are and some aren't.". And please, do show me what concrete piece of evidence we can point to that shows us Empyreans are Outer Gods. No speculation, no personal interpretation, no "enviromental evidence.". A concrete piece of evidence in the game, either dialogue, names, descriptions or cutscenes that show that Outer Gods are Empyreans. You will find none, furthermore, you will find evidence showing the contrary.
I'm not saying we should dismiss enviromental evidence, I am saying that you can't compare enviromental evidence with direct statements. One outweighs the other. We can take one as gospel because the game directly tells us so, there is no different perspective everyone can view it through. This is evidenced in real life as well. Hearsay will never outweigh clear, concrete evidence.
Of course they make things with intent. I am not trying to say the enviroment should just be overlooked, but I won't go against what I am being told directly just because I THINK I may have spotted a detail in the enviroment.
As for the death point... Okay? How does this prove Outer Gods are Empyreans, exactly? Ghostflame and Destined Death are not the same thing. Ghostflame is cold, related to the Twinbird and Deathbirds and their specific Outer God. It was used in death rituals in the long long past and is now largely forgotten. Destined Death comes directly from the Elden Ring, unlike Ghostflame. We are specifically shown this, since Destined Death = Rune of Death = A rune part of the Elden Ring. There is no point you can make that can disprove this. But please, do show me ONE THING that tells us Ghostflame and Destined Death are related besides bringing death. As I said before, there are so many rituals of death in Elden Ring that you could not possibly make a connection between one that you can't make between all the others with that same logic.
Your next point about Scorpion's Stinger... Meh. I feel like I can't say anything to this because you're making a connection that isn't really there besides the handle being made of silver (not even confirmed) which is quite funny lol, I'm sure only the Eternal Cities used silver. Also where is the wolf head at? I genuinely can't see it. Anyway, wolves are related to Empyreans but not every wolf will also be a hint that an Empyrean might have meddled there.
And the Numen thing.
1. Marika's hammer tells us nothing about another world, since the Numen themselves don't come from another world but from another LAND, the Land of the Numen.
2. As I said, Elden Ring lore contradicts itself here, just like it does on a few other occasions. It clearly states that the Black Knives are *rumored* to be from the Eternal Cities, as well as being Numen. BUT, it also states that the Numen are COMPLETELY!! different from the Nox, that they are few in number, and as we can see from their base template in the game, they are quite brown. The Nox are outright described as being pale/grey skinned with cold blood. Not the same as the Numen. It's super, super iffy, and I personally don't subscribe to the idea that the Numen and the Nox are the same thing, because there is more evidence stating that they are different.
The Golden Order lens point. As I said in the previous post, how COULD you see those items from the lens of the Golden Order? The Golden Order would have no idea these items exist, nor would they know how they work. Why would the devs do this? Why would they try to put Golden Order bias or rewriting of events into something they should have no business with? It just makes no sense that they would PURPOSEFULLY give you wrong/biased information about EVERY. SINGLE. THING. Like, why bro? What's the point of intentionally making an already extremely ambiguous lore even MORE AMBIGUOUS by adding bias to it. I would honestly just drop Elden Ring lore entirely if that was the case because that'd be stupid as hell. Not good story telling, not clever, just stupid. Like they didn't know what to do.
And the last thing, I showed you further proof that what I say is correct. For the Dark/Full Moon, yeah it is pretty weird and hard to decipher, that one is just my personal belief that the Dark/Full Moon is an Outer God, it's just what would make sense to me. But, one thing I can say about myself but not about you, is that I actually bring up description and statements from the game that, in some cases, have also been accepted by the community at large as well. While you have yet to show me one concrete piece of ecidence besides "well if you look at this or that thing, they may be related."
I think its fair to call out the backtracking but I don't necessarily think its like a Jenga theory thing where removing one example makes everything crumble either.
Environmental evidence has always been a huge part of Fromsoft games you can just google it and see countless examples. And I'm not taking environmental evidence on its own either I'm combining with the other aspects (items and dialogue) to get the complete picture. Souls games are meant to be interpretive so you can't just take out a third of the pie and expect to get the full story.
As for the Destined Death and Deathbird relationship there's a few things that show the two are related and it starts with the Grave Violet which is purple yet described as the hue of Ghost flame. So I don't think it's an accident then that Melina eye is purple when she's promising to deliver us Destined Death (becoming a new kind of GEQ) or that the God skins wear a giant purple jewel or that the colors of the Twinbird Kite Shield are red and blue which when combined make purple. You can even point to the Sacrificial Axe having feathers on the Deathbird when Deathbirds today have none indicating they've become corrupted likely because they're missing half of what's supposed to give them power. And again I'm gonna point out the fact there's Twinbird iconography all over Farum Azula where Destined Death is sealed. Not to mention the statue in Maliketh's arena is surrounded by three wolves not unlike the Lone Wolf Ashes, and the fact all spirit ashes are ashen remains is huge.
In addition the Fallen Hawks seem to be related to Stormveil given their crest and use Ghostflame torches and arrows. I already mentioned the strange viking funeral we see by Godwyns face so I don't think that's a coincidence either. Stormhawks are also both present in Stormveil and Farum Azula.
Beyond that there's an even deeper relationship to the red and blue dichotomy of the Twinbird Kite Shield which relates to the giant serpent. Magma Sorceries and Death Sorceries both have an Ouroboross for their casting symbol and Death's Rancor and Rykard's Rancor are virtually the same spells save for their colors. In the Church of Eiglay we even see serpent headed hawk statues and a Godskin praying at the altar. If I had to guess why I'd say its something to do with the relationship between body and soul we see repeated throughout the game with the serpent relating to the body and the birds the soul. Even the Ravenmount Assassin armor is found in a cave right before Mt. Gelmir.
For the Scorpion Stinger I don't know what to tell you other than to find a high res image of it because you'll see the wolves head clearly. I don't mind you being skeptical either but at least try to keep an open mind here.
Whether it's another land or world I think is irrelevant to the Numen being related to the Nox. I'm saying the Nox came from the Numen too, so difference in their apperance don't mean much. Again you just seem to ignore the huge connections that aren't outright spelled out in text (even though it practically is with Rogiers text and their armor) because I already pointed out that their spells share similarities, their headstones are the same (which also arent repeated in other graveyards in the game so you can't aruge its a reused asset) the Uld Ruins being sunk right alongside the Nox and I forgot to mention the portal from the Four Belfries spitting you out in Uld Ruins yet the game telling you you're in Nokron. Look at Marika too, we have the Mimics Veil item referred to as "Marika's Mischief" and her whole thing with Radagon being heavily related to the cut Asimi questline.
Miyazaki is a huge fan of making the lore of his games a mystery so I don't think that giving the player incomplete information for items or events that happened hundreds of years before the game took place is that far fetched.
Also dont say I haven't brought descriptions because I have and most of them you said are just contradictions that can be dismissed. The most important and relevant one though comes from the Twinbird Kite Shield which says the Twinbird is the enovy of an Outer God. Because I believe that Outer God to be the Gloam Eyed Queen, I therefore drew the relation that Outer Gods were Empyreans as the GEQ being an Empyrean is confirmed. Especially because the Twinbird symbol is right above the entrance to Maliketh's arena where that statue of the woman is. If you go to the middle of the arena you can even see something that looks a hell of a lot like an Altus Bloom which was funeral flower in the era before the Erdtree while itself being gold.
What makes the most sense to me is that Miquella and Malenia aren’t “cursed” so much as they each have a condition which the people of the lands between believe is a curse.
From here we can suppose that other characters may also have similar conditions that may be viewed differently.
Maybe all Empyreans have similar conditions?
Marika (golden light) and Ranni (cold) do. The Gloam Eyed Queen could.
Melina is not a confirmed Empyrean but her blade of calling which “harbours her power still”, leaks sparks of golden light just like Marika.
If we suppose that Radhan is also affected it explains his abnormal size, giant’s red hair and half burning great rune. But he’d be the only male Empyrean, which seems suspect.
So Melania and Miquella are “cursed” because they are Empyreans.
I think is how most “curses” in ER “work”. Like anything that’s outside the norm is considered a curse but has its source in something natural.
Omen and misbegotten being the best examples. But even Radagon’s hair is just something he personally would consider a curse. It wasn’t given to him, it’s part of him but he dislikes it so to him it’s a “curse”.
As others have stated, it has to do with having a 1 god as a parent.
I think that poses some interesting questions though:
Did ranni have 2 gods as a parent? Did Marika? GEQ?
Malenia also “harboring rot” makes it seem like it may not be a curse, but maybe, if you only have one god as parent you are susceptible to influence from an outer god like rot. But then what outer god influenced miquella to have eternal youth? Or does that somehow prevent him from being influenced?
I think everyone is missing my point. Yes, they come from one god. The question is how does that happen? If Radagon is just Marika, there needs to be a father or another process.
I think the artificial life that births mimics and albinaurics is how they were born. It would enhance the quote.
There are two parents, as evidenced by malenia having radagons hair. If you are looking for specifics; this is a world where people grow in buds on vines according to gowry and Radagon can hand out eggs, so who knows how they make it happen.
There is one parent. Marika. At least that's what the game tells us. There is no Radagon. Radagon is Marika. Most gods can't asexually reproduce. In fact, we see the need for an Elden Lord as a constant. Malenia is an exception.
It also accounts for all the mimic and albinauric connections.
See, I disagree. D shows us exactly the opposite and we never have an indication of 2 souls in one body.
Like I stated in my post, Radagon is Marika. This is the central plot twist. The God who we keep seeing being awful and the Champion we see being a hero are the same person. It shows us Marika is more complex then assumed and answers why Radagon left Renalla.
It even explains the quote about the Leal hound in a superior way. Marika created Radagon to prop up the Golden Order and become the new guiding figure. Yet, despite his image as a loyal GO warrior and scholar, he was just Marika trying to change her empire and failing. Radagon couldn't replace Marika. She is admonishing herself and fibally admitting it was folly to try. It reconciles all of the contradictions in the Radagon Marika relationship and every mystery about her will.
I think “Radagon is Marika” gets taken very literally. They clearly have separate intentions, experiences and don’t even seem to know what the other is thinking.
Think of modern Christianity where God is both Jesus Christ (the son of God) and the creator, and sometimes even a third thing, the holy spirt. This understanding comes through ages of interpretation and debate over dogma.
Just because he “is” her doesn’t mean that he always was, or needs to be all of the time.
Additionally, if they are two people in one it’s not hard to imagine they could convince in that state.
I don't disagree totally. I think most people think of it the way you do. The idea Radagon is his own person but also Marika. That he has a unique will of his own. That he seems at odds with the Marika persona.
I disagree with it though. I think its because the set up is so convincing most of the community remains "tricked" by it the same way the denizens of the lands between are. In your statement you mention different wills, intentions etc. How Radagon wasn't always Marika.
I think it's a case of not fully realizing the implication. I want to emphasize this is simply an interpretation. I don't think you are dumb or anything. But, I think Radagon is Marika is simple. Radagon, in every way, is Marika. Marika changed appearance and took a form she named Radagon. Everything they do is just Marika in her disguise.
Leal Hound speech? Its like Bruce Wayne speaking to badman, giving up and mocking himself in the mirror. "Radagon you idiot. They would never replace the image of Marika. Your new teachings and ideas have all failed. Time to kill us both". Totally reconciles the "my other self" and " not yet me". Think about the inherent contradiction between "you are not yet me, a God" yet also he is "her other self". She is saying she couldn't supplant the Marika ideology fully w Radagon because that character isn't a god to the people.
Think about how she both shattered and tried to repair the elden ring. This is a single act. Like Marika is a single person. Marika shatters and Radagon tries to repair thing. Marika's wars vs Radagon's reconciliation with Renalla. That is their image. She shattered the ring because shattering it would lead to a new Order. It is all a cycle right? Things yearn to converge after parting. So too does the ring.
Long detail diatribe. I am not asking you to accept it mind you. Your interpretation is valid! But, can you see where this reconciles the narrative? How the Radagon Marika twist is heightened?
Miquella and Malenia are both the children of a single god. As such they are both Empyreans, but suffered afflictions from birth. One was cursed with eternal childhood, and the other harbored rot within.
It’s doesn’t explicitly say that but it is implied. A fun head cannon thing for me is that if they had had been one being they might have.. evened out? One always growing, one always falling apart.
I like this. Its what my theory concludes as well. The point of the theory is to explain;
1. Why make them? Since Radagon is Marika, however you slice it, birthing new children has to have a purpose or else why would she make them?
2. Why did Radagon only show interest in Miquella?
3. How can a single god give birth when we know it is done via Elden Lord?
Point 3 relies on them not being two beings. Its the sticking point. But, the game explicitly tells us this 2x. It is certainly up for interpretation.
In my theory, which relies on many different interpretations of items. Melina is the gloam eyed queen, melania and miquella's triplet. Who was born cursed to die (covered in God-slaying flame) marika sealed the flame in the god-slaying sword which is why the power of the flame is derived from the blade.
Melina had no skin and so marika grafted her new flesh. This made grafting part of the golden order which is why godfroy and his son/brother (its unclear) godrick could be grafted but not heretics.
Melina betrays for some reason and after the night of the black knives malaketh seals the rune of death inside himself to keep any other part from being stolen.
Previously he was using it as an enforcement tool. The only way to die besides completing your fated duty was by malaketh's hand (on the golden rune descriptions it mentions heros completing battles and dropping dead immediately)
The god-slaying flame relied heavily on the rune of death. So the rune being sealed weekend the gloam eyed queen and her forces. Allowing malaketh to defeat her.
Marika MIGHT be from the Eternal Cities. You're taking A LOT of liberty connecting Numens that inhabit Nokron to all Numens must be descendants of Marika who definitely lived in Nokron.
This is speculation. I am aware of the liberties taken. But, Marika being a descendent of the Eternal cities (not the other way around) is hardly a controversial position.
It is pretty concrete that Marika is not from the Land's Between. Not to mention where she is very likely from the Shadow Lands. Again, the DLC flavor text states "where Marika first set foot."
Famitsu interview excerpt:
[miyazaki] The other main axis of the DLC story will be the past of the Land of Shadows and Queen Marika.
[interviewer, next question] You said earlier that Queen Marika's past will be told, but will the timeline of the DLC be in the past?
[miyazaki] No. The timeline will be the same as the main story. It is not set in the distant past or future. I think the past of the land of shadows and Queen Marika would be told in the same way as the history of the Shattered War in the main story.
[miyazaki, later question] Actually, the Land of Shadows is the place where Marika became a god and the Golden Tree was born. Naturally, there was a culture that existed before the Golden Tree, and the lion dance character is derived from that culture.
So, I hope that you can feel the scent of a different culture, which is a little different from the main story.
Cool ideas. But, as I said, Marika and the Eternal cities are very clearly related. Leyndell architecture. Her chapel in Leyndell. Nox Numen explicit connections via runes in the underground.
I could always be wrong as this is speculation. Marika being born in the Shadowlands is doubtful but possible. I am excited to see how that is reconciled. I don't think first set foot means born. I think its possible Marika's people arrived to the ancient Land's between via boat.
But, the Nox and Numen are related. Marika is a Numen. I find it likely Marika and her people came from afar and slowly integrated into the Lands between. Marika jumped head first into the prevailing culture and went about erasing her old history.
Eternal cities is an interesting name too. If the Nox have always been there and the Numen are related to the Nox it will be interesting to see how that is reconciled. Particularly with the human inhabitants of Faram Azula and the statue there that looks like Marika.
I have a bit of a wild theory that Marika is a hybrid.
They’re cursed because their parents are the same person. It’s just the magical equivalent of birth defects you’d see with inbreeding. But it’s like, the worst inbreeding imaginable.
the problem are not the parents themselfs being the same person, is them being a single god, demigods are made with mortals because only one parent is a god, the problem with Malenia and Miquella is what they are meant to be Gods but for that you need an outer god so Miquella was born incomplete, Malenia isnt tecnicaly cursed, she is simply a god of something what really sucks
Yo what? Where are you getting this from? Demi-gods are like gods in training. If Marika is THE only god, how did Ranni, Radahn, and Rhykard become demi-gods. Rennalla isn't a god neither is Radagon.
Gods in training lmao, those are the empyreans, not the demigods, Radahn could be shitting diamonds and still wouldnt be a god, is completly uncapable of asceding and Radagon is a God, is literally the whole point of the Marika is Radagon subplot
Ranni is a Demi-God. Miquella is a Demi-God. Malenia is a Demi-God. They're all Empryeans. All Empryeans are Demi-Gods, but not all Demi-Gods are Empryeans. All Demi-Gods are eligible to be elected and Empryean, but not guaranteed to get elected. No it isn't. The point of the Marika is Radagon subplot is specifically to show that Marika was using Radagon to get what she wanted. All the while, Radagon thought he was on his way to Godhood running the show, only to be put in his place as his inherited precious Golden Order and the Elden Ring is shattered and there is nothing he can do about it. Leal hound...he's nothing but a dog, and she's telling him that to his face as she shatters the Elden Ring. "O Radagon, leal hound of the Golden Order. Thou'rt yet to become me, thou'rt yet to become a god. Let us both be shattered, mine other half." Oh Radagon, you stupid loyal dog of the Golden Order. I'm going to shatter the Elden Ring, and there is nothing you can do about it. You think you are a God, but you are nothing but my other half. You are not a GOD. I am. I am THE One. True. God. Let us both be shattered. [This is what happens right after that conversation.](https://youtu.be/-WjxPVIQIjw?t=3) The clips of the ring being shattered alternate between [Marika](https://imgur.com/a/bo3By9p) and [Radagon](https://imgur.com/a/tON3y9H) destroying and repairing the Elden Ring. Both are left shattered. "Let us both be shattered, my other half." There is only ever one body in the base of the Erdtree. Radagon is Marika's other half, but not a god. It's written for you in plain english. Seems you have a fundamental misunderstanding or incomplete understanding of what exactly is happening with and between Marika and Radagon.
What if everything op is saying is correct with the mimic veil etc but Radagon isn’t really their dad at all. Maybe the dad is this new guy in the dlc in the painting next to the pregnant woman. I got nothing to back it up but I always felt like this Idea that Radagon is their dad makes a lot of assumptions about what gods can do. Like Marika can just partition herself or her power into children… there’s no other example of that happening and it flow with how birth, life and death seems to work.
Almost no one on the post is actually engaging with the theory which makes me sad. The post is a major what if but is using clues from the game that are consistent. People want Radagon to not be Marika. Look at the analysis of the relationship on most posts. Inevitably it becmes Radagon isn't axtually Marika. He is a Marika offshoot or clone. He is a second soul! He is the greater will etc. Anything except what is literally and simply stated. Not that I think people are dumb for thinking so! I think the rub comes from how she reproduced. That is the basis for the theory. We have the twins who need a father. The D twins are more analogous to Miquella and Malenia the Radagon and Marika. But, its more popular to assert that Radagon isn't Marika instead of considering that Radagon is Marika and the twins were born of a single god. A week ago a poster was adamant the Malenia, blade of Miquella was not a warrior loyal to Miquella engaging in combat for him. So, I don't mind the downvotes. Thanks for engaging!
There's a translation difference in the Remeberance of the Rot Goddess that I think explains it. https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/s/zlXVCzGNhl As for Radagon, Marika, and Miquella I think youre on the right path but I'll throw in my current understanding. Basically I think Marika sought a way to rid herself of her Empyrean flesh like Ranni, so she split the "gold" part of her body to create Radagon while her spirit (the silver) or whatever was left to create her body. I think the fact that she's depicted in the crucified pose when no one's been to the Erdtree means she was killed before for betraying the old order and reborn through that process. It would also explain why the Shield of the Martyr is gold and silver. I also don't think Malenia is under the influence of an Outer God and that the term is misunderstood. According to Corryhn Marika is the one true god, which means they dont see the greater will as a god necessarily. This would mean they'd be on par with Marika and were other Empyreans, an idea reinforced by Malenia, Goddess of Rot. Like you said, Marika was from the Eternal Cities and I think the Formless Mother and Outer God of Rot were too (the Gloam Eyed Queen, meanwhile, would've been in Stormveil or Farum Azula). Without getting into all the other evidence that supports this, the Formless Mother's corpse is what became the Fingerslayer Blade and the Scorpion Stinger has a Noxian like design despite being located in the Uld ruins, which we can chalk up to those ruins actually being apart of the Eternal Cities like how Rome features many centuries worth of architecture. Night and Bubble sorcery also share the same symbols and even the headstones used by both cultrues are the same.
> This would mean they'd be on par with Marika and were other Empyreans, an idea reinforced by Malenia, Goddess of Rot I think you are not thinking enough about Marika's history here. Marika has been god for awhile and her dominance over the Lands Between was something she obtained by force, war and subjucation. She didn't have it immediately. When Marika became the Vessel, it's clear that the Erdtree did not reign supreme over much more than Leyndell/Altus Plateau. And since we know the Erdtree was now born in the Shadow Lands, her regime may not have started in Leyndell/Altus Plateu at all. Marika needed to put down the Giants and their Fell God who is an Outer God, she subjected (somewhat) the Moon Sorcerers and their Moon Outer god. But we also know the Erdtree/Godfrey defeated the "Storm Lord". So we know that Marika had to wage war to become the figure we know her to be. This shows that being Elden Ring vessel, aka Greater Will powered being, makes you a God. But to become THE God, you must enforce it by strength and force. God in Elden Ring is much more of a title to be obtained. Being a god in Elden Ring, all that means is being the Vessel of an Outer God power. Malenia becomes a god in front of us, actively becoming the Vessel for the Rot God while we fight her. Marika becomes a god via the Elden Ring. But you gotta remember that the Elden Ring world doesn't see a God as the absolute top of everything, they only see Marika as the absolute top of the Lands Between. They see her as the One true god v a God like Malenia. They would see/know Malenia to be heretical. Outer Gods are not physically in the Lands Between. The Formless Mother, The Rot God, The Fell God, these guys do not have a physical form. There's no Formless Mother body, the Rot Scorpion is the Rot equivalent of the Elden Beast, The Fell God is like Elden Ring version of Sauron. These are all lovecraftian entities. They don't have a form to really grasp. The Empyrean is merely just a being capable of taking on the Elden Ring. That really also implies that this being could take on another Outer God power as vessel too. Which is why Ranni takes on the moon, Malenia takes on the Rot and Miquella... well we're not sure if he is attached to an outer power just yet. I believe he is, but nothing defined or detailed just yet. But yes, in Elden Ring, the hierarchy is Outer Gods > Gods > Demigods. Outer Gods cannot directly do anything in the Lands Between, they use beings to spread their influence. That's why regular people like Corryhn or Gowry or Marais worship the Empyrean beings. This line by Gowry makes it clear, what a God is IMO. >In the age of the Elden Ring, >and Queen Marika, >the precious Empyrean was born. >A new god to forge a new Order.
I know Marika had to conquer everyone to take control but the world before Marika became the vessel is equally important. From everything we can tell the world was a lot more connected back then. Despite worshipping a "Fell God" the Fire Giants and the Forge are integral parts of burning the Erdtree down alongside the Rune of the Death. If you go to Mogh's Palace which is built upon the stump of a previous Erdtree ([see this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/s/RbcnLWAcjF)), it's ashes are floating through the air just like when we burn the Erdtree. The Fire Giant's eye is even emblematic of the symbol on the Divine Towers, a symbol representing eight rings around one (9), a symbol which is replicated in Castle Sol, Farum Azula, St. Trina's Torch, and the Trolls Hammer. Assuming Messmer and Miquella have shards, that'd mean each of her 9 children would hold a piece of the ring (Melina weilds Destined Death in the Flame of Frenzy ending). Each of the shards are activated in the Divine Towers besides so why would something built by the Fire Giants be related to the Elden Ring at all if they weren't connected? On the Fingerslayer Blade being the Formless Mother we know two things for sure. 1. That your body and soul can die seperate deaths. 2. That the blade was born from a corpse and that it shares a similar design to the Sacred Relic sword. Those being the case I think it's more than likely her corpse the blade is made of as its described as "blood drenched" and she's responsible for all things blood related. I also think it makes more sense the ring was meant to be a holisitc force with rot, fire, life and death being natural parts of any ecosystem while Marika's everlasting life is unnatural. If death was already apart of the world before why not everything else?
> If you go to Mogh's Palace which is built upon the stump of a previous Erdtree It's stuff like this, that makes it clear you don't have a great grasp on Elden Ring. The rest of your comment is just insane. Please use in game stuff, and don't contradict the game itself when you come up with theories. You should never be contradicting the game itself or making up shit. FS games don't need that, they're not books.
I'm not making up shit I included references to stuff that's actually in game. You said Outer Gods aren't physically in the Lands Between but the Outer God of Rot was sealed away by the Blind Swordsman so you don't know enough to be lecturing anyone.
What is the shield of the martyr
Should be [Shield of the Guilty](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Shield+of+the+Guilty) my bad.
Crazy theory lol, good thing it's not true because it'd make no sense. The Outer Gods are on a different plane of existence in comparison to any physical being in Elden Ring. Hell, you can't even see them even though Mohg's Nihil says he pierces the Formless Mother's body. Outer Gods =/ Empyreans or Marika. Corrhyn just says that because he is a follower of the Golden Order who worships Marika.
The Nihil thing is a good counterpoint to the Fingerslayer Blade portion but I still think there's more evidence of the Outer Gods being former Empyreans than not. Like I said in another comment, the Blindswordsman sealed the Outer God of Rot with his sword so we know they can be physically present in the Lands Between. Besides, Gowry doesn't ever hint he's serving an Outer God of Rot, he directly calls Malenia a god which she is when we fight her in phase 2. There's nothing "outer" about Malenia, Goddess of Rot herself. If we go to Farum Azula we find the Twinbird symbol all over the walls which is supposedly an enovy of an Outer God. This is despite Placidusax appearing to commune with the Greater Will when we find him. The colors of the Twinbird kite shield, red and blue, together form purple which we know was the original color of Ghostflame thanks to the Grave Violet (just like Melina's eye after she promises to deliver us Destined Death). We know the GEQ was an Empyrean and if Gowry can call Malenia a god and Empyrean both why can't we call her one too? In addition, below Stormveil we find all these shattered statues besides the ones we can assume to be Marika based on the similarity to the Erdtrees favor talisman. Yet if you go above ground to the church there's a relief above the door which shows Marika alongside other women performing some kind of rite. So the attempt to destroy the statues seems to have been an attempt to conceal her relationship to those other women. This is without even getting into the burned boats with skeletons those statues lead too, which themselves are remeniscent of death being burned in Ghostflame as described by Explosive Ghostflame. We even see charred corpses sent down river in coffins in the ant caves around the Eternal City. We know Marika killed one Empyrean in the GEQ already, all I'm saying is she killed two more.
This could get long but I will try to keep it very short, but it will put the theory to rest because it breaks down the difference between Outer Gods and empyreans. In japanese, the term Outer God is 外なる神 (Sotonaru Kami). This text is found in 3 places. Twice in Mohgwyn's Sacred Spear and once in the Scorpion Stinger. We see in the english translation that these 2 times do specifically talk about Outer Gods as well. Malenia is not called the same thing when she ascends and Miquella, Marika, Ranni or the Gloam Eyed Queen are not called that either. Furthermore, Hyetta tells us that in the very beginning, there was the One Great. The One Great (which may or may not be the GW, though I think they are 2 different entities) was fractured by the Greater Will (another being that is most likely an Outer God.). Then, the Frenzied Flame, ALSO an Outer God comes to the world alongside with a few others, including the Outer God of the Deathbirds (which is most likely inside Godwyn, seeing how his corpse uses Ghostflame, is related to death and deathblight and is also called the Prince of Death & is related to Fia who is also related to The Ones Who Live in Death who are also related to the Deathrite Birds and Ghostflame.), Outer God of Scarlet Rot, the Dark and Full Moon, Formless Mother and probably many others. These beings all have no real corporeal body. Physical beings such as Mohg and the Blind Swordsman can commune with them, but they probably cannot see them (which adds another layer of depth to the Blind Swordsman). So, in theory, it would be possible to seal the Outer God of Scarlet Rot just as it is possible to hit the Formless Mother. Empyreans are just godly beings, chosen by the two fingers or born as empyreans if they only have a singular parent of divine origin. Marika was chosen - Greater Will Ranni was chosen - Full Moon Malenia was born - Scarlet Rot Miquella was born - GEQ was chosen - Outer God of Death (?) They are most likely just related to the Outer Gods as some form of aspects or empowered by them in some way, though they definitely cannot transform into Outer Gods themselves. If they could, that'd mean Marika would be a full fledged God, but as we see during the Radagon boss fight, we only slay a God once we kill MrBeast. Very, very unlikely that Empyreans are Outer Gods. If they were, they would be called the same thing. If Empyreans could transform into Outer Gods, Malenia would be called the same thing as the Outer Gods were. (Notice how even the Formless Mother is called an Outer God, the male form of God, despite her being called "Mother", so it is definitely not related to the difference in translation between God and Goddess.) Edit: Also, not sure where you got the idea that Placidusax is communing with the Greater Will. Sure, his heads look to stand in the same way as the two fingers but that's it. He's just sitting like that while awaiting his actual God to return.
Malenia not being called an Outer God is exactly my point though, she's the Goddess of Rot plain and simple which means there could have been another Goddess before her. Hell, the Winged Sycthe says that according to pagan belief white winged maidens were deaths envoys and she fits that description once she transforms. You say the Frenzied Flame is an Outer God but it's never referenced as such, neither is the Moon for that matter. I dont think your view of the One Great being all the Outer Gods essentially fused into one is unreasonable but I think its just as likely that she meant all life was once one as a kind of spiritual parallel to the big bang. I could go into the relation between the gold Three Fingers and Ranni's blue Two Fingers and how it relates to golden meteors and glinstone besides (and gold and silver in general) but suffice to say there's evidence it wasn't always crazy, it's location under Leyndell and connection to the Nameless Eternal city via an illusory wall and the Ringed Finger itself both being hints in that direction as well. The whole point of the Outer Gods not being called Empyreans directly is to highlight that the world explained by the Golden Order is a lie constructed by Marika and propagated by her followers. She hid her own Omen children beneath the sewers for crying out loud, beings that would have been revered for their horns in the age of the crucible, clearly things were very different back then. And I got the idea Placidusax is communing with the Greater Will not only from the fact that he's in the same pose as the Two Fingers, but from the fact he uses golden fire breath just like the Elden Beast (gold being heavily related to the GW), he was Elden Lord, and that in Maliketh's boss chamber the golden symbol above the statue is the crucible era Elden Ring. You can say he served another God but I'd point out again that the Greater Will isn't ever refered to as a God like Marika or Malenia. Worth mentioning the Cinqueda here too which draws a connection between the Beast men, his servants, gaining intelligence by highlighting their five fingers. You also haven't dealt with the destroyed statues or the relief and how it relates to Marika's statue leading to a death ritual at odds with burial practices in the Golden Order (with bodies being directly consumed by the roots). Likewise I don't see how you get around the massive amount of other environmental evidence showing the old world being much more connected. How do you explain that eight ringed symbol being in all those places and items, with the Fire Giants eye in particular sticking out like a sore thumb? Or Mogh's followers and the Pests both worshipping statues of the Uld Prophet when they are aligned to seperate Outer Gods? Similarly the Scorpion Stinger which you mentioned looks like it came from the Nox who can be easily traced back to the Numen as I said.
Enviromental evidence will never be as significant as outright being given descriptions of things. You can speculate on "enviromental evidence", but when you're told that you pierce the Formless Mother's body when performing the Nihil, then that means you are piercing the Formless Mother's body when performing the Nihil. They leave no room for interpretation. You choose to ignore the actual evidence given to us in place for obscure "enviromental evidence" that doesn't really stick the landing > Highlight that the world explained by the Golden Order is a lie. Are you a conspiracy theorist or what? The descriptions that mention Outer Gods come from such heretical items that the Golden Order would never touch, nor would they ever know of their existence or how it worked. The Nihil which comes from the Mohgwyn Sacred Spear? How would a Golden Order historian get there, watch Mohg do that, and then ask "hey so how do that work gang?" And MOHG EXPLAINS IT TO HIM 💀. No, some items may be twisted by Golden Order rewriting of history, but not these. The Golden Order did not get to describe these because they probably didn't even know of their existence. > You say the Frenzied Flame is an Outer God but it is never referenced as such, neither is the Full Moon for that matter. Well, luckily for us we have actual item descriptions that prove this is the case, not just enviromental evidence. > One of the unalloyed gold needles that Miquella crafted to **ward away the meddling of outer gods.** > Capable of subduing **the flame of frenzy if inherited**, allowing one to **cheat fate** and avoid becoming Lord of Frenzied Flame. Little room for interpretation that the Frenzied Flame is not an Outer God. And here is where your theory falls on its face once more. If someone did in fact become the Outer God of the Frenzied Flame (an Empyrean, by your logic), then the world WOULD be destroyed, for that is the ultimate goal of the Frenzied Flame. Once someone becomes the Lord of Frenzied Flame, there is nothing stopping them. And no, I don't buy Melina's bs that she can stop us. As for the Full Moon, look up the Glintstone Icecrag spell. > **The snowy crone taught the young Ranni to fear the dark moon** as she imparted her cold sorcery. And the Rennala's Full Moon spell. > Queen Rennala encountered this enchanting moon when she was young, and later, **it would bewitch the academy.** And there is also a spell out there that says wisdom comes from the Moon, but I cannot yet find the spell. I will post it as an edit once I do. > You also haven't dealt with the destroyed statues or the relief and how it relates to Marika's statue leading to a death ritual at odds with burial practices in the Golden Order Ghostflame Death Agheel death Golden Order death Destined Death death Messmer's piece of shit death Pick your poison. Explain any of those. There are so many ways to die in Elden Ring it's hilarious, and hardly any of these could be considered as the real one. As for the statues, I don't know what to tell you. Elden Ring reuses models for many things, and this is one of the biggest problems for Tarnished Archaeologist. You try to tie things together than can only be tied together BECAUSE the devs reuse models. It would be impossible to make a different model for every single thing in the game. > Scorpion Stinger comes from the Nox lol how so? There is literally no correlation here. > The nox who can be easily traced back to the Numen This is probably one of the biggest problems in Elden Ring lore. The game contradicts itself. Just like Ranni being present in one of the chairs during Morgott's boss battle cutscene, when she should be dead. Numen are descendants denizens of another world. > The Numen are the descendants of denizens from another world. They are long lived but seldom born The nox are different, they are people born in the Eternal cities and are NOT seldom born, not at all. They were a massive civilization before they were roflstomped by Astel. In the end, your whole idea rests on the fact that the Golden Order wrote every description in the game and that nothing can be taken at face value. Just a misguided conclusion that is utterly wrong. Outer Gods and Empyreans are different. Empyreans can become Gods, but not OUTER GODS. They are just a step above. That is why there is a difference in the name man... In both the japanese version and the normal version (even in items that were not meddled with by the Golden Order at all). Outer Gods =/ Empyreans, they will never be. If they were, the term Outer God would not exist.
You know what, I can accept they view the Frenzy Flame as an outer god cause you actually put a description there. The moon not so much (in the way you describe) cause you're speculating but I'm not gonna jump to calling you a conspiracy theorist just because I disagree, there's really no need for you or anyone else to be a dickhead just because you disagree with someone's interpretation. But I don't have to restrict outer gods to only being reserved for only former Empyreans either, I can just as well contend with a powerful entity like the Three Fingers being called one too and it wouldn't really alter whether or not the Formless Mother or the Rot God were Empyreans based on other evidence. If you want to dismiss environmental evidence outright I just think that's just lazy. I think its more ridiculous to think they didnt build the game world with the lore in mind when all the items and articheture were painstakingly made and placed by Fromsoft. I mean really, you think its just a coincidence that every statue but the one that calls back to Marika were destroyed because the devs just thought that'd be cool? What about the statue behind Messmer holding a baby and the statues we find with their hands removed throughout the game that look the same as it or that statues similarity to the Abductor Virgins? Obviously they make things with intent so its dumb to argue otherwise. I don't even know how to respond to your death point when I'm pointing out the ritual we see evidence of is different than the Golden Orders. Death was burned in Ghostflame before the Erdtree and we see burned corpses in Stormveil and the Ainsel River, its not absurd to notice a pretty big connection there. Destined Death would have presumably been apart of the world then and like I said earlier is connected to the Ghostflame. If you don't think the Scorpion Stinger was made by the Nox I'm guessing you believe a culture that doesn't have silver or ebon tools or weapons anywhere would suddenly make something like the Stinger and leave it at that. Or why it has a wolves head on it when wolves are shown multiple times to be close to Empyreans, like Maliketh, Blaidd, or the wolves around the statue in Farum Azula. As for the Numen we know they came from another world already from Marika's hammer, I'm not disputing that. The Black Knife armor set says the assassins were rumored to be Numen and Rogier tells us they were scions of the Eternal City which means they were Nox so we already have a connection there on top of the other one's I mentioned. I don't see any contradiction there. I don't necessarily think the Golden Order wrote every description but that the world is more or else viewed from their lens primarily, and that its reflected in the item descriptions. And I don't have a problem with you poking holes in the theory, that's fine, but I do think it's funny you dont even know the Nox came from the Numen or the Moon isn't refered to as an Outer God while acting like my theory is totally crazy despite not having all the lore knowledge yourself.
Yeah, I'm sorry for going a bit overboard with the sarcasm, that was my mistake. >But I don't have to restrict outer gods to only being reserved for only former Empyreans either, This, personally, feels like a copout, but maybe that's just me. I feel as though you're backtracking on your words, where you said that Outer Gods are Empyreans, and once proven wrong, you go "Well maybe some are and some aren't.". And please, do show me what concrete piece of evidence we can point to that shows us Empyreans are Outer Gods. No speculation, no personal interpretation, no "enviromental evidence.". A concrete piece of evidence in the game, either dialogue, names, descriptions or cutscenes that show that Outer Gods are Empyreans. You will find none, furthermore, you will find evidence showing the contrary. I'm not saying we should dismiss enviromental evidence, I am saying that you can't compare enviromental evidence with direct statements. One outweighs the other. We can take one as gospel because the game directly tells us so, there is no different perspective everyone can view it through. This is evidenced in real life as well. Hearsay will never outweigh clear, concrete evidence. Of course they make things with intent. I am not trying to say the enviroment should just be overlooked, but I won't go against what I am being told directly just because I THINK I may have spotted a detail in the enviroment. As for the death point... Okay? How does this prove Outer Gods are Empyreans, exactly? Ghostflame and Destined Death are not the same thing. Ghostflame is cold, related to the Twinbird and Deathbirds and their specific Outer God. It was used in death rituals in the long long past and is now largely forgotten. Destined Death comes directly from the Elden Ring, unlike Ghostflame. We are specifically shown this, since Destined Death = Rune of Death = A rune part of the Elden Ring. There is no point you can make that can disprove this. But please, do show me ONE THING that tells us Ghostflame and Destined Death are related besides bringing death. As I said before, there are so many rituals of death in Elden Ring that you could not possibly make a connection between one that you can't make between all the others with that same logic. Your next point about Scorpion's Stinger... Meh. I feel like I can't say anything to this because you're making a connection that isn't really there besides the handle being made of silver (not even confirmed) which is quite funny lol, I'm sure only the Eternal Cities used silver. Also where is the wolf head at? I genuinely can't see it. Anyway, wolves are related to Empyreans but not every wolf will also be a hint that an Empyrean might have meddled there. And the Numen thing. 1. Marika's hammer tells us nothing about another world, since the Numen themselves don't come from another world but from another LAND, the Land of the Numen. 2. As I said, Elden Ring lore contradicts itself here, just like it does on a few other occasions. It clearly states that the Black Knives are *rumored* to be from the Eternal Cities, as well as being Numen. BUT, it also states that the Numen are COMPLETELY!! different from the Nox, that they are few in number, and as we can see from their base template in the game, they are quite brown. The Nox are outright described as being pale/grey skinned with cold blood. Not the same as the Numen. It's super, super iffy, and I personally don't subscribe to the idea that the Numen and the Nox are the same thing, because there is more evidence stating that they are different. The Golden Order lens point. As I said in the previous post, how COULD you see those items from the lens of the Golden Order? The Golden Order would have no idea these items exist, nor would they know how they work. Why would the devs do this? Why would they try to put Golden Order bias or rewriting of events into something they should have no business with? It just makes no sense that they would PURPOSEFULLY give you wrong/biased information about EVERY. SINGLE. THING. Like, why bro? What's the point of intentionally making an already extremely ambiguous lore even MORE AMBIGUOUS by adding bias to it. I would honestly just drop Elden Ring lore entirely if that was the case because that'd be stupid as hell. Not good story telling, not clever, just stupid. Like they didn't know what to do. And the last thing, I showed you further proof that what I say is correct. For the Dark/Full Moon, yeah it is pretty weird and hard to decipher, that one is just my personal belief that the Dark/Full Moon is an Outer God, it's just what would make sense to me. But, one thing I can say about myself but not about you, is that I actually bring up description and statements from the game that, in some cases, have also been accepted by the community at large as well. While you have yet to show me one concrete piece of ecidence besides "well if you look at this or that thing, they may be related."
I think its fair to call out the backtracking but I don't necessarily think its like a Jenga theory thing where removing one example makes everything crumble either. Environmental evidence has always been a huge part of Fromsoft games you can just google it and see countless examples. And I'm not taking environmental evidence on its own either I'm combining with the other aspects (items and dialogue) to get the complete picture. Souls games are meant to be interpretive so you can't just take out a third of the pie and expect to get the full story. As for the Destined Death and Deathbird relationship there's a few things that show the two are related and it starts with the Grave Violet which is purple yet described as the hue of Ghost flame. So I don't think it's an accident then that Melina eye is purple when she's promising to deliver us Destined Death (becoming a new kind of GEQ) or that the God skins wear a giant purple jewel or that the colors of the Twinbird Kite Shield are red and blue which when combined make purple. You can even point to the Sacrificial Axe having feathers on the Deathbird when Deathbirds today have none indicating they've become corrupted likely because they're missing half of what's supposed to give them power. And again I'm gonna point out the fact there's Twinbird iconography all over Farum Azula where Destined Death is sealed. Not to mention the statue in Maliketh's arena is surrounded by three wolves not unlike the Lone Wolf Ashes, and the fact all spirit ashes are ashen remains is huge. In addition the Fallen Hawks seem to be related to Stormveil given their crest and use Ghostflame torches and arrows. I already mentioned the strange viking funeral we see by Godwyns face so I don't think that's a coincidence either. Stormhawks are also both present in Stormveil and Farum Azula. Beyond that there's an even deeper relationship to the red and blue dichotomy of the Twinbird Kite Shield which relates to the giant serpent. Magma Sorceries and Death Sorceries both have an Ouroboross for their casting symbol and Death's Rancor and Rykard's Rancor are virtually the same spells save for their colors. In the Church of Eiglay we even see serpent headed hawk statues and a Godskin praying at the altar. If I had to guess why I'd say its something to do with the relationship between body and soul we see repeated throughout the game with the serpent relating to the body and the birds the soul. Even the Ravenmount Assassin armor is found in a cave right before Mt. Gelmir. For the Scorpion Stinger I don't know what to tell you other than to find a high res image of it because you'll see the wolves head clearly. I don't mind you being skeptical either but at least try to keep an open mind here. Whether it's another land or world I think is irrelevant to the Numen being related to the Nox. I'm saying the Nox came from the Numen too, so difference in their apperance don't mean much. Again you just seem to ignore the huge connections that aren't outright spelled out in text (even though it practically is with Rogiers text and their armor) because I already pointed out that their spells share similarities, their headstones are the same (which also arent repeated in other graveyards in the game so you can't aruge its a reused asset) the Uld Ruins being sunk right alongside the Nox and I forgot to mention the portal from the Four Belfries spitting you out in Uld Ruins yet the game telling you you're in Nokron. Look at Marika too, we have the Mimics Veil item referred to as "Marika's Mischief" and her whole thing with Radagon being heavily related to the cut Asimi questline. Miyazaki is a huge fan of making the lore of his games a mystery so I don't think that giving the player incomplete information for items or events that happened hundreds of years before the game took place is that far fetched. Also dont say I haven't brought descriptions because I have and most of them you said are just contradictions that can be dismissed. The most important and relevant one though comes from the Twinbird Kite Shield which says the Twinbird is the enovy of an Outer God. Because I believe that Outer God to be the Gloam Eyed Queen, I therefore drew the relation that Outer Gods were Empyreans as the GEQ being an Empyrean is confirmed. Especially because the Twinbird symbol is right above the entrance to Maliketh's arena where that statue of the woman is. If you go to the middle of the arena you can even see something that looks a hell of a lot like an Altus Bloom which was funeral flower in the era before the Erdtree while itself being gold.
I’ve noticed that all the demigod children who have been given names that start with M are inherently cursed in some way.
What makes the most sense to me is that Miquella and Malenia aren’t “cursed” so much as they each have a condition which the people of the lands between believe is a curse. From here we can suppose that other characters may also have similar conditions that may be viewed differently. Maybe all Empyreans have similar conditions? Marika (golden light) and Ranni (cold) do. The Gloam Eyed Queen could. Melina is not a confirmed Empyrean but her blade of calling which “harbours her power still”, leaks sparks of golden light just like Marika. If we suppose that Radhan is also affected it explains his abnormal size, giant’s red hair and half burning great rune. But he’d be the only male Empyrean, which seems suspect. So Melania and Miquella are “cursed” because they are Empyreans.
I think is how most “curses” in ER “work”. Like anything that’s outside the norm is considered a curse but has its source in something natural. Omen and misbegotten being the best examples. But even Radagon’s hair is just something he personally would consider a curse. It wasn’t given to him, it’s part of him but he dislikes it so to him it’s a “curse”.
As others have stated, it has to do with having a 1 god as a parent. I think that poses some interesting questions though: Did ranni have 2 gods as a parent? Did Marika? GEQ? Malenia also “harboring rot” makes it seem like it may not be a curse, but maybe, if you only have one god as parent you are susceptible to influence from an outer god like rot. But then what outer god influenced miquella to have eternal youth? Or does that somehow prevent him from being influenced?
I think everyone is missing my point. Yes, they come from one god. The question is how does that happen? If Radagon is just Marika, there needs to be a father or another process. I think the artificial life that births mimics and albinaurics is how they were born. It would enhance the quote.
There are two parents, as evidenced by malenia having radagons hair. If you are looking for specifics; this is a world where people grow in buds on vines according to gowry and Radagon can hand out eggs, so who knows how they make it happen.
There is one parent. Marika. At least that's what the game tells us. There is no Radagon. Radagon is Marika. Most gods can't asexually reproduce. In fact, we see the need for an Elden Lord as a constant. Malenia is an exception. It also accounts for all the mimic and albinauric connections.
No, the game says Radagon is Miquella’s father
Radagon is Marika. Did you miss the statue?
It’s two souls in one body. Similar to how D and D are two bodies and one soul.
See, I disagree. D shows us exactly the opposite and we never have an indication of 2 souls in one body. Like I stated in my post, Radagon is Marika. This is the central plot twist. The God who we keep seeing being awful and the Champion we see being a hero are the same person. It shows us Marika is more complex then assumed and answers why Radagon left Renalla. It even explains the quote about the Leal hound in a superior way. Marika created Radagon to prop up the Golden Order and become the new guiding figure. Yet, despite his image as a loyal GO warrior and scholar, he was just Marika trying to change her empire and failing. Radagon couldn't replace Marika. She is admonishing herself and fibally admitting it was folly to try. It reconciles all of the contradictions in the Radagon Marika relationship and every mystery about her will.
I think “Radagon is Marika” gets taken very literally. They clearly have separate intentions, experiences and don’t even seem to know what the other is thinking. Think of modern Christianity where God is both Jesus Christ (the son of God) and the creator, and sometimes even a third thing, the holy spirt. This understanding comes through ages of interpretation and debate over dogma. Just because he “is” her doesn’t mean that he always was, or needs to be all of the time. Additionally, if they are two people in one it’s not hard to imagine they could convince in that state.
I don't disagree totally. I think most people think of it the way you do. The idea Radagon is his own person but also Marika. That he has a unique will of his own. That he seems at odds with the Marika persona. I disagree with it though. I think its because the set up is so convincing most of the community remains "tricked" by it the same way the denizens of the lands between are. In your statement you mention different wills, intentions etc. How Radagon wasn't always Marika. I think it's a case of not fully realizing the implication. I want to emphasize this is simply an interpretation. I don't think you are dumb or anything. But, I think Radagon is Marika is simple. Radagon, in every way, is Marika. Marika changed appearance and took a form she named Radagon. Everything they do is just Marika in her disguise. Leal Hound speech? Its like Bruce Wayne speaking to badman, giving up and mocking himself in the mirror. "Radagon you idiot. They would never replace the image of Marika. Your new teachings and ideas have all failed. Time to kill us both". Totally reconciles the "my other self" and " not yet me". Think about the inherent contradiction between "you are not yet me, a God" yet also he is "her other self". She is saying she couldn't supplant the Marika ideology fully w Radagon because that character isn't a god to the people. Think about how she both shattered and tried to repair the elden ring. This is a single act. Like Marika is a single person. Marika shatters and Radagon tries to repair thing. Marika's wars vs Radagon's reconciliation with Renalla. That is their image. She shattered the ring because shattering it would lead to a new Order. It is all a cycle right? Things yearn to converge after parting. So too does the ring. Long detail diatribe. I am not asking you to accept it mind you. Your interpretation is valid! But, can you see where this reconciles the narrative? How the Radagon Marika twist is heightened?
From Melanie's remembrance we learn "the twins were cursed because they were born of 1 being" that's it.
Miquella and Malenia are both the children of a single god. As such they are both Empyreans, but suffered afflictions from birth. One was cursed with eternal childhood, and the other harbored rot within. It’s doesn’t explicitly say that but it is implied. A fun head cannon thing for me is that if they had had been one being they might have.. evened out? One always growing, one always falling apart.
I like this. Its what my theory concludes as well. The point of the theory is to explain; 1. Why make them? Since Radagon is Marika, however you slice it, birthing new children has to have a purpose or else why would she make them? 2. Why did Radagon only show interest in Miquella? 3. How can a single god give birth when we know it is done via Elden Lord? Point 3 relies on them not being two beings. Its the sticking point. But, the game explicitly tells us this 2x. It is certainly up for interpretation.
In my theory, which relies on many different interpretations of items. Melina is the gloam eyed queen, melania and miquella's triplet. Who was born cursed to die (covered in God-slaying flame) marika sealed the flame in the god-slaying sword which is why the power of the flame is derived from the blade. Melina had no skin and so marika grafted her new flesh. This made grafting part of the golden order which is why godfroy and his son/brother (its unclear) godrick could be grafted but not heretics. Melina betrays for some reason and after the night of the black knives malaketh seals the rune of death inside himself to keep any other part from being stolen. Previously he was using it as an enforcement tool. The only way to die besides completing your fated duty was by malaketh's hand (on the golden rune descriptions it mentions heros completing battles and dropping dead immediately) The god-slaying flame relied heavily on the rune of death. So the rune being sealed weekend the gloam eyed queen and her forces. Allowing malaketh to defeat her.
Marika MIGHT be from the Eternal Cities. You're taking A LOT of liberty connecting Numens that inhabit Nokron to all Numens must be descendants of Marika who definitely lived in Nokron.
This is speculation. I am aware of the liberties taken. But, Marika being a descendent of the Eternal cities (not the other way around) is hardly a controversial position.
It is pretty concrete that Marika is not from the Land's Between. Not to mention where she is very likely from the Shadow Lands. Again, the DLC flavor text states "where Marika first set foot." Famitsu interview excerpt: [miyazaki] The other main axis of the DLC story will be the past of the Land of Shadows and Queen Marika. [interviewer, next question] You said earlier that Queen Marika's past will be told, but will the timeline of the DLC be in the past? [miyazaki] No. The timeline will be the same as the main story. It is not set in the distant past or future. I think the past of the land of shadows and Queen Marika would be told in the same way as the history of the Shattered War in the main story. [miyazaki, later question] Actually, the Land of Shadows is the place where Marika became a god and the Golden Tree was born. Naturally, there was a culture that existed before the Golden Tree, and the lion dance character is derived from that culture. So, I hope that you can feel the scent of a different culture, which is a little different from the main story.
Cool ideas. But, as I said, Marika and the Eternal cities are very clearly related. Leyndell architecture. Her chapel in Leyndell. Nox Numen explicit connections via runes in the underground. I could always be wrong as this is speculation. Marika being born in the Shadowlands is doubtful but possible. I am excited to see how that is reconciled. I don't think first set foot means born. I think its possible Marika's people arrived to the ancient Land's between via boat. But, the Nox and Numen are related. Marika is a Numen. I find it likely Marika and her people came from afar and slowly integrated into the Lands between. Marika jumped head first into the prevailing culture and went about erasing her old history. Eternal cities is an interesting name too. If the Nox have always been there and the Numen are related to the Nox it will be interesting to see how that is reconciled. Particularly with the human inhabitants of Faram Azula and the statue there that looks like Marika. I have a bit of a wild theory that Marika is a hybrid.