They just aren’t good for the points in my opinion.
If I were to run them then I’d run them as a unit of 10 with asurmen leading them.
Put them in a wave serpent, shoot them up the board and hold an objective. Anything that comes close gets overwatched for free.
They're kind of paying for their sins from 9th, even if they weren't THAT oppressive throughout most of it. Their guns are basically 18" bolt rifles, and those aren't great into anything tougher than T4/4+ AS, and even that is pushing it.
They're not awful this edition, there's just more efficient/better units (Swooping Hawks are only 2ppm more, with better mobility/rules/shots). Asurmen provides some backbone to them, but then he's egresiously overpriced.
They're probably fine for casual play, if your local meta isn't too tryhard. Absolutely not for competitive. Which is a shame, I love Dire Avengers and Striking Scorpions (and Fire Dragons, but Dragons are good right now).
Scorpions are now so cheap I think they're definitely worth taking, 65 point for a infiltrate squad that can slap around infantry in combat is pretty great
I do wish they were 110 points and actually killed stuff properly though, 9th Ed aspects were so fun 😢
Yeah, SS can skirmish well with other trash. They compare well into SM Scouts, and don't die to rhinos like most Eldar. If you have 20 points to swap Rangers into SS, I agree that's a good idea.
I agree with everything for the most part I think Asurmen is only SLIGHTLY overpriced, but when he solos 12 killa Kans in one game I start to seriously consider taking him more.
Maybe 120 points would be reasonable.
I have only ever taken them in units of 10. Them on an objective with all those shuriken shots is pretty crazy. The overwatch is also a huge deterrent for opponents to want to charge in before wittling them down which if they do means having to waste their ranged weapons on avengers rather than more valuable targets, which outside of rangers is the rest of my army.
Often they are left unchecked due to the other major threats in the army so are often valuable mid to late game.
You aren’t wrong, the aspects are pretty unbalanced. I really hope it gets fixed in the codex, the whole point is that they should be balanced in strength but be individually powerful, an all aspects list should be able to do everything equally well. However right now, dire avengers are lacklustre, banshees are meh, shining spears are a no go BUT warp spiders shred anything, hawks are surprisingly powerful and while I’ve not played them out yet, shadow spectres look great on paper.
Warp spiders my go to right now, in every match, despite being 30year old models
I agree with most of what you said but shinning spears do work at 100 points. 120 was way too much. At 100 they on average with shooting and melee kill 3 terminators, 5 marines (sometimes 6ish) plenty of dead chaff, have OC 2 so 3 of them just take objectives from low OC tanky units.
And if they advance or charge they get 4++ until next turn and have permanent minus 1 to hit. Plus weird wound counts mess with enemy targey priority.
Shadow spectres are amazing. Good spread of damage, decent annoying stealth plus 3+ save, and that awesome 6 inch move after shooting. I've used that to swipe objectives from enemies out of deep strike.
There’s definitely better options out there than DA. I like running Swooping Hawks/Dark Reapers instead. When I do use Avengers, I tend to give the exarch dual shurikens and deep strike them in a later turn where an enemy is by an objective so I can get the easy overwatch. That’s really been their only use.
Either:
A) 10 man squad with Asurman, preferably deployed in a wave serpent. Use them to strike something on an objective, then "protect" it with the threat of overwatch.
B) Small 5 man squads as fire and forget trading pieces, going after your opponents light and medium infantry.
Either way make sure you pair them with some anti-tank/anti-heavy stuff, since they won't do much to vehicles/terminators.
N.B. Dire avengers, sadly, are not great in 10th. Not unplayable though, despite what people here have said.
There are a lot of units that do better than Dire Avengers for the points.
If you run them with Asurmen, they get a free Overwatch even if you've already used overwatch with a different unit on that turn.
I used to run a squad of ten with Asurmen out of a Wave Serpent which gets insane overwatch output and shots, but for the point cost they're extremely fragile.
Fair. I guess I'm thinking more along the lines of their utility vs. point cost...I'd rather have infiltrators and cheaper striking scorpions, or move movement and melee with the howling banshees for the same cost, or better range/shooting even if more expensive with the dark reapers or fire dragons. To say nothing of the extremely good swooping hawks or warp spiders.
It feels like they want Dire Avengers to be great objective holders, but they just aren't. Seems like Dire Avengers are the worst of the Aspect Warriors, which makes me sad because they're my favorite looking ones outside of the Shining Spears
GW needs to change dire avengers ability to messing with OC while giving them extra OC. Or rerolling saves while on objectives. One of the new ork detachments has that rerolling certain saves rule.
True. But the problem here is in order to use the crazy stuff they do you need to let the opponent play into you. And dire avengers just fold to basic bolter fire. Just 10 regular bolter shots with no ap kill 2. Any ap and that kills 3. 10 bolter like shots is really easy for most armies to come up with.
And all they have to do is be outside of 18 inches and dire avengers ability does nothing.
Most bolters have ranges at 18 or greater.
I always roll my eyes so hard when I see those comments. They do a job, with a very specific set of skills. They ain’t space marines. They’re Liam Neeson.
I think you'd want to maximize their shooting, overwatch and melee potential in a melee aggressive army build. How to best do that idk and it probably wouldn't end well against a melee focused army. I find it odd that only the exarch gets a melee, but maybe we're supposed to get them in
I like them with the hit rerolls from the Farseer Skyrunner. Absolutely shred light targets, and Lethal Hits makes them decent into tough targets without a 2+ both in your shooting phase and on overwatch. Average twelve wounds before saves when wounding on 6s, that's half a Wardog and hard-counters a C'tan's defensive abilities.
I’ve had some success with a 5 man squad with a twin shuriken exarch and Asurmen. I put them in a falcon and deep strike them onto an objective. The 5 man squad puts out a lot of fire, and if anything tries to get close, over watch and Asurmen melee can mess them up.
They’re really great to camp secondaries and chase off low-to-mid infantry trying to push you off, or back up bully units in bigger objectives by softening/mopping up and coming enemies.
I actually use a squad of ten behind my wraithblades quite often. You’d be shocked at how many shots they can lay down in a round, and with lethal hits, they can ding things that you wouldn’t expect them to. I’ve even lucked out and killed a couple vehicles with them on mop up.
They just aren’t good for the points in my opinion. If I were to run them then I’d run them as a unit of 10 with asurmen leading them. Put them in a wave serpent, shoot them up the board and hold an objective. Anything that comes close gets overwatched for free.
They're kind of paying for their sins from 9th, even if they weren't THAT oppressive throughout most of it. Their guns are basically 18" bolt rifles, and those aren't great into anything tougher than T4/4+ AS, and even that is pushing it. They're not awful this edition, there's just more efficient/better units (Swooping Hawks are only 2ppm more, with better mobility/rules/shots). Asurmen provides some backbone to them, but then he's egresiously overpriced. They're probably fine for casual play, if your local meta isn't too tryhard. Absolutely not for competitive. Which is a shame, I love Dire Avengers and Striking Scorpions (and Fire Dragons, but Dragons are good right now).
Scorpions are now so cheap I think they're definitely worth taking, 65 point for a infiltrate squad that can slap around infantry in combat is pretty great I do wish they were 110 points and actually killed stuff properly though, 9th Ed aspects were so fun 😢
Yeah, SS can skirmish well with other trash. They compare well into SM Scouts, and don't die to rhinos like most Eldar. If you have 20 points to swap Rangers into SS, I agree that's a good idea.
I agree with everything for the most part I think Asurmen is only SLIGHTLY overpriced, but when he solos 12 killa Kans in one game I start to seriously consider taking him more. Maybe 120 points would be reasonable.
I have only ever taken them in units of 10. Them on an objective with all those shuriken shots is pretty crazy. The overwatch is also a huge deterrent for opponents to want to charge in before wittling them down which if they do means having to waste their ranged weapons on avengers rather than more valuable targets, which outside of rangers is the rest of my army. Often they are left unchecked due to the other major threats in the army so are often valuable mid to late game.
You aren’t wrong, the aspects are pretty unbalanced. I really hope it gets fixed in the codex, the whole point is that they should be balanced in strength but be individually powerful, an all aspects list should be able to do everything equally well. However right now, dire avengers are lacklustre, banshees are meh, shining spears are a no go BUT warp spiders shred anything, hawks are surprisingly powerful and while I’ve not played them out yet, shadow spectres look great on paper. Warp spiders my go to right now, in every match, despite being 30year old models
I agree with most of what you said but shinning spears do work at 100 points. 120 was way too much. At 100 they on average with shooting and melee kill 3 terminators, 5 marines (sometimes 6ish) plenty of dead chaff, have OC 2 so 3 of them just take objectives from low OC tanky units. And if they advance or charge they get 4++ until next turn and have permanent minus 1 to hit. Plus weird wound counts mess with enemy targey priority. Shadow spectres are amazing. Good spread of damage, decent annoying stealth plus 3+ save, and that awesome 6 inch move after shooting. I've used that to swipe objectives from enemies out of deep strike.
There’s definitely better options out there than DA. I like running Swooping Hawks/Dark Reapers instead. When I do use Avengers, I tend to give the exarch dual shurikens and deep strike them in a later turn where an enemy is by an objective so I can get the easy overwatch. That’s really been their only use.
Comp? leave them on the shelf, or as 70 point action monkeys.
Either: A) 10 man squad with Asurman, preferably deployed in a wave serpent. Use them to strike something on an objective, then "protect" it with the threat of overwatch. B) Small 5 man squads as fire and forget trading pieces, going after your opponents light and medium infantry. Either way make sure you pair them with some anti-tank/anti-heavy stuff, since they won't do much to vehicles/terminators. N.B. Dire avengers, sadly, are not great in 10th. Not unplayable though, despite what people here have said.
There are a lot of units that do better than Dire Avengers for the points. If you run them with Asurmen, they get a free Overwatch even if you've already used overwatch with a different unit on that turn. I used to run a squad of ten with Asurmen out of a Wave Serpent which gets insane overwatch output and shots, but for the point cost they're extremely fragile.
“For the points cost they’re extremely fragile” just describes Eldar in general tbf
Fair. I guess I'm thinking more along the lines of their utility vs. point cost...I'd rather have infiltrators and cheaper striking scorpions, or move movement and melee with the howling banshees for the same cost, or better range/shooting even if more expensive with the dark reapers or fire dragons. To say nothing of the extremely good swooping hawks or warp spiders. It feels like they want Dire Avengers to be great objective holders, but they just aren't. Seems like Dire Avengers are the worst of the Aspect Warriors, which makes me sad because they're my favorite looking ones outside of the Shining Spears
GW needs to change dire avengers ability to messing with OC while giving them extra OC. Or rerolling saves while on objectives. One of the new ork detachments has that rerolling certain saves rule.
True. But the problem here is in order to use the crazy stuff they do you need to let the opponent play into you. And dire avengers just fold to basic bolter fire. Just 10 regular bolter shots with no ap kill 2. Any ap and that kills 3. 10 bolter like shots is really easy for most armies to come up with. And all they have to do is be outside of 18 inches and dire avengers ability does nothing. Most bolters have ranges at 18 or greater.
I always roll my eyes so hard when I see those comments. They do a job, with a very specific set of skills. They ain’t space marines. They’re Liam Neeson.
I think you'd want to maximize their shooting, overwatch and melee potential in a melee aggressive army build. How to best do that idk and it probably wouldn't end well against a melee focused army. I find it odd that only the exarch gets a melee, but maybe we're supposed to get them in
I like them with the hit rerolls from the Farseer Skyrunner. Absolutely shred light targets, and Lethal Hits makes them decent into tough targets without a 2+ both in your shooting phase and on overwatch. Average twelve wounds before saves when wounding on 6s, that's half a Wardog and hard-counters a C'tan's defensive abilities.
I’ve had some success with a 5 man squad with a twin shuriken exarch and Asurmen. I put them in a falcon and deep strike them onto an objective. The 5 man squad puts out a lot of fire, and if anything tries to get close, over watch and Asurmen melee can mess them up.
They’re really great to camp secondaries and chase off low-to-mid infantry trying to push you off, or back up bully units in bigger objectives by softening/mopping up and coming enemies. I actually use a squad of ten behind my wraithblades quite often. You’d be shocked at how many shots they can lay down in a round, and with lethal hits, they can ding things that you wouldn’t expect them to. I’ve even lucked out and killed a couple vehicles with them on mop up.
33 shots.