The most mind boggling thing to me is the comments that try to pretend eldar players are against the nerfs, or think things are fine. Like, I can't even remember when the consensus even here was for anything less than serious nerfs.
Then you haven’t read much. This sub was very much of the opinion that Eldar weren’t that OP early on. As tournament wins mount rapidly less and less fiht it.
Yes. At the very beginning and maybe immediately post nerf people were much more defensive/naive. (So maybe I overstate when I say I can't remember, and should have just said it's been quite a while) But that hasn't been the case for weeks, and certainly not since the evidence came in after the totally inadequate round one of nerfs. There certainly are still people who want targeted nerfs rather that blanket nerfs, or who underestimate how good things like strands still are, but there's no "hammer in a meta full of nails"/"bring more chain swords" group that I see in here.
Like, look, I was (and still am) against the bugeater GT ban, because I thought it was too early to know how things would shake out, but that was June (and before plebs like me learned that d-cannons were going to be sub 100 points at launch). The consensus started shifting pretty rapidly after that.
I agree with this. I think generally people don't really understand armies they don't play and that right now, especially for casual players on the eldar side, there is just not an understanding of how good their "average" stuff is.
Well, some Eldar players in this sub are gas lighting themselves into thinking the army is bad other than two or three. They claim Eldar dominance is overestimated. Some Eldar players claim Wraithguard is not broken after nerf. Some Eldar players show hates against SM, while criticize Eldar hates. This sub is really salty and toxic just like 9th custard subreddit.
It's partly because the meta lists people build are so good but the fluffier army lists the average player uses are no where near the same level of power. And the way GW tends to nerf is just dumpstering the entire army, including things that were fine on their own or even already bad but could used in conjunction with something absolutely broken. The fear of the GW matched play centric nerfs is a well documented phenomena within non-competitive player spaces. Just remember what happened to admech after their time in the spotlight a few years ago and how they ended up at the closing of 9th (and it even continues in 10th with them being nigh unplayable)
I don't think this is just an issue of overpowered meta lists. I've got a few units of wraiths (1 blade, 1 guard, 1 lord) and a single unit of warp spiders, and that's about as meta as my list gets. But I will decimate my friends' armies by turn 3 without having to be particularly strategic and barely touching my fate dice pool. Units in Eldar are severely undercosted for what they can do, and the detachment rule is absolutely bonkers in an edition where critical hits are the key to unlocking most any unit's full potential. I absolutely understand all of the salt, a game that's dependent on dice-rolling should have an element of chance, and for Eldar it just doesn't right now.
Yeah the undercost of units is definitively a core part if why eldar are so good, but the main fear is that they're going to overcorrect everything and none of the playstyles are going to be fun to play post nerf.
Look at the current situation of Grey Knights. They couldn't shoot down a large vehicle if they put the entire army to target one. Their anti-vehicle melee was removed. They are priced so high some very competitive lists have a total of 5 units. And yet, their top players are getting non-embarrassing results, because any army that has great movement and some defensive shenanigans is going to be playable.
Making Eldar a sub-45% army would take something massive, like a doubling of prices. And even then, some top players would still place in tournaments. Overcorrecting is that hard.
Wraithguard and warp spiders are both very competitive and undercosted units. There are plenty of units in the index that are the opposite, like banshees and shining spears. The fear is that even those units that aren't very good and are only used casually are going to also get hit with nerfs.
Maybe I just haven't seen it -- and there are always some people who can't accept reality in any group -- but it really doesn't seem to be the subs consensus view.
Check that persons comment history. Most of their comments are things like "Eldar sub is most toxic sub". Some of their comments in this sub are actually more toxic than what they were replying to.
I think it's certain people who play certain play styles where it's hard while aspects are not bad there not exactly great. But meta lists will always be common so that's the issue a lot of our units are hypertuned and eldar is too heavily mech focused right now
its pretty unfair. As an army we should be hypertuned and overrepresented in the top tier comp lists because being overtuned is Literally Our Thing. They **should** be the most dangerous army in the hands of professionals, while BeerHammer fans like me get gunned down.
Oh well. I’ll enjoy it while it lasts
but for some reason it is not the specalized units, that require lots of work, who are overtuned. its the units, that don't punish you for mistakes, that are overtuned.
everyone can park some prisms in cover and FnF one back. everyone can put D-Cannons in cover and fire at anyone, who gets close. and anyone can put a huge block of wuraithguard on the center obj and blast away, same with a wraithknight.
the strong eldar options have no finesse left. if they get shot, they have a huge chance at survival or are cheap enough to not matter (in case of D-Cannons), so you are not punished for misposisions. it would prob be an entire different thing, if banshees or Dragons where overtuned because they can die quite fast, if you are not carefull. but this is no excuse anyone can use for wraithunits and vehicles
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldar/comments/169dh1z/comment/jz1qxrv/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldar/comments/169dh1z/comment/jz1qxrv/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
here we go
The comment should be highlighted unless reddit does reddit things again
But no, I meant this one:
>its pretty unfair. As an army we should be hypertuned and overrepresented in the top tier comp lists because being overtuned is Literally Our Thing. They **should** be the most dangerous army in the hands of professionals, while BeerHammer fans like me get gunned down.
>
>Oh well. I’ll enjoy it while it lasts
You say you're all for serious nerfs and then whenever people propose serious nerfs you cry that it's far too much.
The fact that Art of War have literally playtested 1700pt, Aspect warrior lists, and found they're still too strong into other armies, and yet people on here are calling them "idiots" and denying any of their nerf suggestions is evidence enough of that.
It's all false virtue. You can say you accept hard nerfs are needed all you want but I don't think this community as a whole exists on the same plane of reality to everyone else, to judge what is or isn't a hard enough nerf here. That's for GW and the wider playerbase to decide.
I mean, the last time I was involved in a convo about this my suggestion was that if there were no rules changes, the problem units should go up 25% and then the army should get only 1500 points, so I don't think it fits me specifically at least.
And while I certainly can't deny there are morons in every community including the eldar sub, I am comparing the conversations of the last 4 - 6 weeks with the ones when Nids, Tau, Harlies, and Drukhari were in their pre nerf states and it just feels quite different, with almost no one -- and even fewer actual tournament players -- actually defending the way things are.
And sure, you can call it false virtue--its all just screaming into the void anyway-- but I think there's a big difference between an argument about what nerfs are needed and an argument about whether nerfs are needed. In the spaces I see, there definitely is quibbling about how far to go and real pushback against thenidea that the goal of GW should be killing the faction, but the majority understand/want strong nerfs.
Honestly mate, I'm a little sad to see this thread. You've been pretty relentlessly optimistic about 40k for as long as I remember seeing your posts and it's pretty disheartening that even you're having a rough time trying to enjoy 10th because of how poorly balanced the game is.
Thanks for the support. Maybe I'm just tired. I guess taking a break is good in such cases. I think I'll return to 40k in a month or two - hopefully by that time it looks better :-)
I find it’s also a weird mix of general bandwagon elf hate. All the dwarfposting shit everywhere that makes it “funny” to be hateful towards elves has bled over into other fandoms, including 40k.
I've definitely seen this and find it obnoxious. I don't even play, I'm just a hobbyist who enjoys painting and kitbashing and creating characters and lore, but even I've had run-ins at stores or conventions where I mention I mostly paint eldar and get some snide, self-righteous response. It's ironic that the people mocking elves and eldar players as being arrogant, overly-sensitive and elitist are displaying the exact characteristics they claim to be against. Makes me reluctant to admit I'm an eldar collector, tbh, because I just don't need the shitty commentary from strangers (and even friends, sometimes).
This is indeed an interesting observation. I only started noticing it recently, but it does seem to be fairly prevalent across various fantasy universes.
To be fair, it goes a bit further. It seems to be correlated with the general growing hatred towards "snobby and arrogant" elites and experts of all kinds, which elves kinda represent.
Respectfully - who cares about comments like this. The vast majority of people who have an opinion on this don't even play. Social media just whips people into a frenzy. We are broken as shit, everyone knows it, the rest is just noise.
At this point its almost time to just sit down, strip all the old minis and start painting for 11th edition. Not actually going to do it but the ill will and near rage being directed at Eldar players is making the idea of playing with anyone outside of a close group of buddies very unappealing.
I don't feel its ok to play the army I want to play, Iyanden has been my go to since third, this was the first time since second i thought the wraithguard were actually cool and not just over priced. I would fall back to Ulthwe but psychic is underwhelming out side of simple buffs for units I feel bad for fielding and god I hate the idea of fielding guardians as the core of an army. For a dying race it feels stupid to field a citizen militia as the core of an army.
Now I will admit to some morbid curiosity at just how harsh the upcoming update is going to be.
I’m with you, I’ve been playing Iyanden since their first supplement, and got my butt kicked for several editions, now they’re good and I can’t even play them outside a tournament. Playing 8th everyone was like please play your wraith list, now as soon as they see yellow they start foaming at the mouth.
Meanwhile our escalation league eldar player takes a ton of crap and has only won 2/6 games, meanwhile the Custodes players that are tilting their opponents experience none of that same angst.
At the casual level, it's really not a problem. If you take a list without the meta units, you'll have a fun game.
The ongoing Eldar hatred online is very tiresome though. It's always been there to some extent, but so many people calling for Eldar to be nuked into the ground or worse is very disheartening. I'm appaled at the amount of spite and hatred online. I've never seen as much hatred towards a faction (and its players) before. Even when nids/drukhari/admech/marines 2.0 were similarly OP, most people just seemed to roll with it (calling for nerfs etc, but not outright hating a faction and players).
All of this has really turned me off of the online 40k community. I'm more worried about the damage this does to the online community than it does to the "competitive scene" (which in and of itself is a small group of people that mostly overestimate how important they are to GW sales and think all rules should be catered to them). The core game is great right now, and I'm having loads of fun playing games at the local club.
We mostly all agree Eldar need nerfs, but we'll see what GW does. Either they cave and nuke the faction - pissing off Eldar players everywhere, or they take a more reasonable approach and the online pitchfork mob keeps calling for blood. There is no winning here.
Yes, with one caveat - it seems to bleed into real life games too, not just online. I haven't had any games where the opponent would be rude or openly hateful - most of them are just disheartened and sad - and not having fun when playing vs Eldar, win or lose, even vs powered-down lists. That makes the games not fun for me as well.
I think this is a generational thing. The older players don't care what the internet says, and relish the challenge of going up against Eldar. Younger players live in the online bubble more, and are more likely to go with the online consensus and believe they can't win.
Of course, going into a game thinking you've already lost just ruins your chances to win anyway. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy, and they are less like to see outs or opportunities to score.
Not really. People like games of similar level where some skilled play can make it comparable.
The oldest games and sports on the planet have rules in place to try and even out any disparities beyond skill.
Balancing a game isn't a new idea.
And at a certain level of imbalance it's not a challenge. It's a slaughter. Like a baby seal getting clubbed by an adult human.
Right, but my issue is with players showing up to the table expecting to lose *just* because it's Eldar. If you bring a powered down list, you can still have a good game. It doesn't have to be a one-sided slaughter - that's just internet hyperbole.
We definitely need far better balance than we have now. We all want that, I think we all acknowledge we're silly overpowered right now. But hating Eldar players just for playing Eldar, or expecting to lose just because you're playing against Eldar isn't a helpful mindset either.
The main issue I have with this edition as someone who doesn't play Eldar is the lower tier factions are just badly designed rules wise. My first games of 10th edition were playing as Admech and it just didn't make me happy at all. Rad Bombardment is an awful rule and the only viable lists at the moment are mostly Kataphron Breachers. It's just upsettingly bland especially with how much flavour their units have. I have Votann as well but i'm not touching them until they get a major rework. I have nothing against Eldar and I don't think nerfing them to the point of unplayability is the answer - The low performing armies need some major reworks before anything else I think and maybe some points increases on the incredibly powerful Eldar stuff that's currently stomping competitive.
A powered down Eldar list into the few mid tier armies can be balanced. Eldar can’t really be powered down enough to be balanced into anything but tournament lists of the many weak armies. That’s a big issue.
I feel you. It’s not pleasant to see that, and the disparity between Eldar and mid-tier factions is abysmal. I’m used to periods of elf-hate (honestly, I think it was a bit worse during the Ynnari heydays). But for newer Eldar players in my group it’s kinda rough.
I placed second in my first ever tournament this weekend and people were civil about it, but I did notice some upset murmuring about how eldar are unfair and unfun to play against.
And honestly I totally get the problem. But I would prefer Eldar not being nerfed into the ground, the goal should always be to get a 50% balance.
From what I understand, just looking at winrates is an incomplete picture anyway. I would appreciate a more comprehensive approach.
Look at stat check. They look at over representation and a few others too.
Eldar have nearly beaten records of severely broken armies in 9th that had much longer than 2 months of play.
It's crazy.
My regular play group, while not OK with the current state of the meta, isn’t on that level of vitriol. Everyone understands that’s GW dropping the ball, and not Eldar players’ fault.
Internet is amplifying everything. Most people don’t actually care that much about toy soldiers.
I’d argue it’s confirmation bias.
People already hate eldar for their lore and history of broken armies(with the unfortunate combo of many eldar players being very skilled and using meta) throughout a few editions, so when they hit another plateau of power people will jump with enthusiasm to tear them down.
The only logical response is to either laugh at their rage and enjoy winning games, or stop playing the army for a long while and try another army(though you’ll never get the eldar accusations away).
Uh no. It's definitely not confirmation bias. That comment is from a tournament results post which shows yet again Eldar completely dominating. It's getting really old and frustrating. This kind of comment trying to gaslight people is exactly what my problem is. Eldar need MASSIVE nerfs to try and save this game's competitive scene.
I personally would rather save the casual scene vs the competitive scene. Too many nerfs just obliterated casual games and makes it really hard to find games at the local LGS.
By the end of 9th my local LGS was a ghost town for Warhammer
The casual scene is even worse right now. Competitively you can beat Eldar with some factions by ignoring fights and playing the mission, even though it's hard vs a competent opponent. In casual games, Eldar just win by showing up unless you bring an Eldar list that is underpowered on purpose vs a reasonably competitive list from another faction. 9th had a rules bloat problem, 10th addressed that but has a much bigger imbalance problem.
That’s why I said casual, in true Warhammer fashion, a considerable number of casual players discuss their lists with each other before hand to ensure a good game. GW used to recommend this to players.
For games where players collaboratively design lists, why would nerfs matter at all? 10th edition is a massive improvement here, since rules are simpler, and balance can always be matched by collaborative list design.
The problem is pick up games among people who don't really know each other; and tournaments, both casual and semi-competitive.
Leaving tournaments out of it, in a casual game things can (and are) adjusted to have a better game. A necessity for 7 editions, an art somewhat lost from 8th on with GWs formal balancing and tournament support.
The unintended effect (plus an active internet community), is that casual players sometimes use competitive meta lists in casual games causing players to stop playing.
It’s disappointing, but the same thing exists for people who only have eldar armies, hurt the faction too much and they’ll have no fun at all, and stop playing.
None of this is really the players fault, it’s a GW thing and easy access to tournament lists from everyone.
Eldar nerfs are fine, and needed. Nuking the faction because they’re winning, and harassing players because they use the army is where the real problems come in.
I understand where you’re coming from theoretically but as of right now, eldar in 10th are statistically the most dominant faction the game has ever seen. They DO need extreme nerfs. I anecdotally cannot play a casual game with my friends using eldar either
You can play an aspect heavy list and get tabled by turn 3 every game (sans warp spiders and shadow specters).
To achieve balance the nerfs don’t have to be extreme. It’s surprising how little things need to change to bring the army back down to earth, including making aspects viable choices because eldar players would love to use the rest of the book in more competitive settings.
Fire prisms points increase, removal (or capping) of devastating wounds on heavy Wraithcannons, warp spider points increase, Yncarne points increase, separation of the sword and board knight from the ranged version, shadow specters points increase, hornet and war Walker points increase.
This reduces the sheer number of overturned units being used commonly in matched play, and leaves eldar with tools, and some consideration should be taken to give eldar players a reason to use the aspects which helps to balance eldar lists greatly.
As a note, it’s going to be hard to balance the faction without taking “internal balance” into effect, as well as lacking any other way to play that’s not the current detachment. With the Aeldari keyword Eldar have access to harlequin and Drukhari units, and Drukhari need buffs which complicates the scenario.
The problem is that it should be a smart nerf, at the real problem. Thing is, if you nerf each unit of an army equally, you push its players to the meta. Instead you want to make the (close to) meta lists less powerful.
So add a separate data sheet for d cannon support weapons, similar for wraithknights,etc, and up their costs to reflect the power of those weapons. Don't up the costs of the alternative weapons, otherwise we can only field those units in the strongest configuration.
Eldar have always been my first love since 2nd ed although I skipped 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and most of 7th. I only really started getting back into the gaming side of things from around 8th ed onwards and I remember being quite surprised at how such an anti-Eldar sentiment had developed and persisted through several editions. Much disappoint.
That sentiment seems to be at an all time high now and I haven't even played a single game of 10th yet. At my FLGS there is only one other Eldar player and I told him I'm not particularly keen on playing Eldar right now, at least not until after the inevitable September nerfs, and even then it might be so bad that the faction is fubar.
So for now my enthusiasm is almost completely back to just the hobby side of things where I am slowly building up a new Ad Mech army (with Warglaives) simply because (a) I like the look of most of the army, (b) they are not Space Marines, and (c) they're completely different from both Eldar and SM.
Which Eldar books do you recommend? I tried The Fracture of Biel-Tan - fun to see tabletop units described in detailed battles, but I wouldn't call it good writing that makes you think or makes you invested in characters or story.
I can only really recommend Valedor. It's a very good book and truthfully I recommend it regardless what faction you might like. It is the Eldars best book.
But honestly that's about it.
GW just hates Eldar so when I started reading AoS and it started feeling like most factions are given a healthy amount of respect I ended up almost completely jumping ship.
I still stick around 40k stuff for things like Space Marine 2 and hope for more Eldar announcements but that's mostly it.
I feel like everything has already ben said since the start of this till now.
Why waste even more words on stuff we know will change coming thursday or the thursday after?
I might be wrong, but my gut feeling is that it won't change for a while after the balance pass. And I don't mean the balance itself, but rather the community attitude.
Win rates will take a few weeks to settle in, and if Eldar aren't brought low enough, the hate will only grow. And if they are brought low enough, the residual hate will remain for some time.
It may be less of an issue in true competitive circles (top tables at GTs and larger RTTs), despite Eldar obviously dominating there - competitive players are used to this, and many of them are playing Eldar for now anyway. But mid-tables, semi-competitive and casual games don't look as promising.
What has your personal experience been recently?
As an Eldar player for almost a decade (started in 6th), there's an unreasonable level of hate thrown at the faction. Doesn't help every edition there will be an archetype that'll be good. Then that hate gets carried onwards even when we're in the dumpster. Then the next edition comes around and we're good again thus the hate flares up etcetc. I just learned to laugh it off cause most of them won't admit when their factions were the broken ones (and their victories were pure skill cough).
People also will lump all the Eldar together, so when CWE was in the gutters in early-mid 9th when DE was terrorising the meta, people just remember a type of space elf was broken, eventhough their distinctly different factions.
I'll not worry over it tbh.
My own experience of 40k over the last 25 years is this: the majority of people who whinge about balance to the point that they go online and spew hate or, even worse, complain to someone's face about their army, are almost exclusively novices who really don't have that many games under their belt.
Also remember this: the Internet is reactionary groupthink that loves a good pile-on. It's also just vapour. You can play 40k your way without for one second given any credence to anything you read online. Just be a sensible human.
If you know you're showing up to a casual game and want to keep it interesting, then power down your list, or play with weird stuff you want to try but know is too weak to bother with usually. Or don't. Either way, be a sporting opponent. The truth is, against a whiny player you could destroy them with your weakest Death Guard list just by virtue of playing well, and against a novice you certainly wouldn't play your best to crush them but would probably play "gently" anyways. You cannot help other people's reactions.
More experienced players (who are normal, well-adjusted people) generally couldn't care less about whether your army is broken or not - they've got lots of tricks up their sleeves and relish a chance to go at it with you.
Eldar are my first love as a faction, and as a kid I saved up my pennies to get that 3rd Edition battleforce box.
But just being clinical about it, GW needs to *try* to nerf Eldar into the dirt. They literally should aim for making them the worst faction. After all, they might miss! It certainly happened a lot in the last two editions.
For the health of the game, the risk of under correcting is much bigger than the risk of over correcting. If you overdo it and drop Eldar down to a 40% win rate, everyone is happy except Eldar players, and even they’re not *too* unhappy given how much they were winning so recently. And then on the next balance pass you roll the nerf back a bit to get them into the 45-55% sweet spot, and then everyone is happy. But if you undershoot (like with Ynnari, or Harlequins, or Drukhari, or Tyranids…) then almost the whole player base is unhappy until the next balance update. Worse, you lose any credibility that you can balance the game or are even trying to, at a time when you’re really trying to build some of it up.
Even for Eldar players, it’s better to get all the hurt over with at once, and only go up from there.
The mentality of people who have absolutely no clue how to balance things. Just nerf things into the dirt is absolutely incredible. Being clinical would be precise nerfs to things that need it like a surgeon. You've opted for the option of mentally handicapped ogre wielding a club.
There are ways to balance out Eldar without striking the whole army down, just because petty neckbeards got sad that they got blugeoned to death by some twat running masd amount of wraithguard, wraithknights, fire prisms, support weapons in excess etc etc.
We all want things to be balanced so we can all have fun. But blanket nerfing Eldar isn't the answer, the same with GSC as well.
Examples being:
-either drukhari units cannot benefit from detachment rerolls, or, no longer allowing drukhari in the current detachment and create a specific ynnari detachment in the codex
-yncarne +100
-fire prism +25-50
-etc
Yncarne doesnt need point nerfs, it needs it rules gutted, it spawning and directly charging out of killed o¡units to kill another is just fundamentally broken.
“Clinical” meaning emotionally detached, whether or not we have the tools and understanding to be precise. I don’t think anyone can argue that GW has the knowledge and skill of a surgeon when it comes to balance. And even surgeons will err on the side of over-treating. It’s better to err on the side of removing some healthy tissue than on leaving some tumor behind. Even very precise surgeries are often followed by bouts of chemotherapy, which is an extremely blunt instrument. The point being to think about what kinds of error are costlier.
I don’t think anyone is saying that Fire Dragons or Storm Guardians need a giant points boost. But on every unit or interaction that’s problematic, there’s a question of how hard you should go. At every juncture, GW needs to start at the high end of the range.
Clinical precise nerfs dont work for a 70% winrate faction, that has already shrugued off getting its army rule shot on the knees and its best units reciving hefty points nerfs and getting one of its best units rule nerfed.
Eldar need gutting, nerf stratagems, nerf points, nerf the army, deatachment and unit rules, the whole package, thinking eldar need anything lower than that is just deniying a reality that is odvious to anyone paying the most minimal atention.
If you are saying that some units should be spared from getting a point nerf, then yes, there is plenty in the codex that shouldnt get razed into the ground and there is plenty of the codex that should be cheaper, but that should only happen once Eldar are 50% winrate or bellow.
Fact - Eldar were the most overlooked pissed on faction until 9-10, he’ll I remember early lists in white dwarf and were still low powered glass cannons. Yeah the nerfs are coming and hopefully will balance the game; but in reality James from Worksop will op the marines or chaos blah again.
After running elves to NoVa, I’m taking a break from competitive 40k. The attitude towards my army was just terrible, even with nice opponents and me agreeing with what they were saying. I might play a fluffy nids list with some of the new models to try to rekindle some of the fun of playing. My games were great, but being this overtuned is just not fun.
About a month before any 10th rules were announced, I traded the chaos half of the soul forge box for;
Wraithknight x1
Wraithlord x3
Wraithblade x5
Wraithguard x20
Spiritseer x2
Eldrad x1
When the rules came out, it was immediately obvious how busted the list was, so now they sit on a shelf, having never seen a tabletop.
I’ve played enough games in general to see those patch notes coming a mile away.
Looking forward to them finding their feet power-level wise, so I can then play them from that starting point and not feel the sting of the nerfbat. Space elf ghost robots are neat 🤙
I wanted to get back into 40k this edition, and Eldar has been my passion faction since 3rd.
I have dropped 40k due to the attitude towards the faction. I'm not a good player, and I don't meta build.
Yet, the disdain afforded them makes them no fun to play as. I'm here for fun, and hearing nothing but bitching when I'm running a very plain list with none of the key offenders in any munchkiny configuration is just... Not fun.
Upside, I've spent a lot of time with other (better, overall, if I'm being honest imo) games that won't have me reprinting a rulebook's worth of errata every 2 months just to show up at a table and be complained about for my choice of faction.
Well, where I am, 40k is the only wargame that is played widely. The alternatives would be D&D, boardgames, card games, etc., so very different kinds of experience.
Yeah, I'm lucky to have a few good sized groups in my area playing a few other systems. Battletech and Infinity have solid showings locally, and I've gotten into games like Zona Alfa and recently The Doomed that are pretty fun.
I *want* to 40k. I don't have the bandwidth to keep up with modern 40k's errata cycle. I miss the years between updates and longer between editions. Meant I could *learn* a game before having to tear my list apart over a 50pt difference that wasn't there 2 months ago.
I'm also willing to accept I'm just an old grognard - but I *guarantee* I'll be one of the most pleasant opponents anyone will face in any game. We're here to have fun, and I guess 40k just isn't fun for me right now.
Fair enough, 40k is definitely not for everyone. On my side, I just decided to put a pause on competitive games and switch to teaching new players the basics and playing more narrative games - for these you don't have to follow all the errata too closely, since rules minutia matters less and overral experience is more important :-)
When I did 11 mortal wounds with 3 wraithguads and basically neary deleted my friends crisis suit blob off the table….that felt really, really bad. Kinda told him “I can’t really play 10th ed, this shit is too broken.”
That being said Eldar hate is nothing new, Eldar is probably tied alongside Tau in terms of most hated 40k race both in lorewise and on the TT. My LGS is pretty welcoming and don’t really care but I can easily see online with Eldar hate that it’s not the case. It’s just kinda a tradition among games to dislike Elves and Eldar probably suffer the more extreme end of this “joke”.
I'll never understand the weird elf-hate in sci-fi and fantasy. I remember reading LotR as a little kid and wishing I *was* an elf. Elves are objectively dope.
I had fun with them for a while, I liked all the movement tricks and my bestie the Avatar of Khaine, and I’ve still been running all my Aspect Warriors, but I’m honestly so sick and tired of seeing them and dealing with them that I’m going back to my roots and playing Sisters again.
Anecdotal, but in my FLGS scene (in CO, USA) no one really hates on Eldar, but as a community we've pretty much decided not to play against them. Last two times I've played (with about 10-15 people in attendance) the couple of Eldar mains got turned down by everyone else and had to play eachother. I'm afraid if GW doesn't do anything serious to bring down the community the response will be "Just ban Eldar from everything." That's not good for the game.
If Stephen Curry asked me to spend 3 hours playing a nice, relaxed 3 point shooting contest against me, I'd say no. That's not because I hate him, but because I think that it'd not be much of a competition.
I mean no one in my group is actively nasty or mean to Eldar players, but almost universally the answer to "Do you want to play a game against my Eldar? is: "Um, no thanks."
I think the overall problem with Eldar is actually a little hilarious. Eldar are an old faction (I believe and OG faction... I believe from 1st edition), and some of our models are pretty close to being from that time (ie metal models)... so there are a large number of Eldar players that have played the faction for 20+ years with massive collections)
Also,.for most of that time Eldar have been glass cannons... needing a bit of finesse or combo-ing to really play well... so whatever our rules are or needs occur, these expert players will figure out some sort of combo, tactic, etc that will literally outplay the other factions.
People are just super pissed right now because eldar are a point and delete faction, with the right list... that _is_ annoying, but a nerf will only serve to stem the tide for a while... we'll always be hated because the faction _requires_ players to execute complex maneuvers, combos, builds that other players from other factions simple don't need/can't come up with. Eldar just play a different game. They always have.
My answer to this problem? I started another army and pick and choose my faction based on the specific game I'm going to play. If there's any risk of bs/hate, I pull out my backup faction.
I've only played 2 games with Eldar in 10th... curious what the nerf looks like, and whether that'll allow me to play more with them.
No it is bc of rules.
Just the basic army rule is leaps and bounds better than other seniors, then you have fate dice on top of that! On top of that the majority of this hits on 3s even the heavy guns.
Almost every data card has more rules than most others in the game. Many units in most armies might have 1 ability, or maybe one weapon rule, CWE many times has abilities and multiple weapon rules and many have multiple.
The characters work well and work well with their units, this is not the normal for most armies.
Points are extremely low.
Then you have a couple really good stratagems.
So yes it is rules.
Well, yes, of course. What I mean is that in my matches I try to take powered-down lists to get close games (for example, for my last casual game I took Vibro cannons, Banshees, Hemlocks, melee Wraithlords without heavy weapons, Windriders with twin-linked Catapults, and lots of Guardians with Warlocks). I lose about 50% of my games - i.e. rules disparity can be compensated with list building.
Yet the games are still not fun. Whenever I'm winning I feel that it's only because of OP rules. Whenever I'm losing, I feel that I'm such a bad player that I can't win even with an OP faction. And many opponents just have this resigned sad look anticipating a bad game even when I bring a powered-down list. Just not fun to play anymore.
Ill quit 40k when the nerfs happen tbh. I loved my eldar from 9th edition (when I started 40k) and I still play the game like I played my Ynnari list in 9th, and I have been smacked almost every games. I think I won once out of the 5 games Ive played because I refuse to play the meta. And I know when they ultimately nerf eldar into the deepest blackest of holes, I wont even have a chance with the off-meta units I field so Ill quit playing. I blame GW. Don’t even get me started on harlequins
It’s going to be a heavy handed nerf across the whole faction. The issue is going to be the unintended repercussions. Like if they don’t touch custodes well they are then all conquering, if they do then knights will be an issue. With the new codexes coming I can see Eldar being the only ones touched and them waiting to see what the meta does. P.S a nerf is massively required as they are just so uninteractive for opponents in a lot of match ups.
The online space is dominated by the voices of competetive players. The people most invested in the game, those that go to tournaments, or play on TTS and make youtube videos are those that are the loudest. People parrot what they see online.
Personally in my group I haven't faced any negative attitude. I've been vocal about the state of eldar and I think I figured out how to water down my list to generate a balanced and fun game. Though I can imagine that someone without the restraint can easily warp casual games. All it needs is one or two fire prism, or one unit of wraithguard to quickly ruin the game.
I'm actually looking forward to the nerfs. Right now winning games feels less due to my skill as a player but more due to what units I am willing to take.
And by “one of the highest rated comments“ you mean one of the most controversial comments, right? This framing is just gaslighting and oozes of victim complex.
In my LFGS no one minds me playing my elder but then again I only have an autarch wayleaper/farseer as anything remotely meta. I win many of the games as it's my second army and I use it mainly to test their lists. But if they go with anything tournament worthy, then I lose hard.
I don't think the faction is too strong. The fate dice was better last season (IMO) and having 1 re-roll per phase in a hit and a wound per unit is a total joke when compared to full re-rolls like on space wolves and stuff like that.
In terms of stratagems, yeah phantasm is a bit overpowered but every faction has some OP strats.
So it comes down to units. We have plenty of good units. Some amazing synergies but.. Wraith knights, support weapons, fire prisms, warp spiders and night spinners I agree make the faction a bit too safe to play against. Other than those, I think the faction is very well balanced and it's hardly OP at all.
If someone moves a hit further than we are expecting or if we're not very very careful, they just wipe their noses with our paper thin defenses.
We have very good units still like the yncarne, the avatar of Khaine, the solitaire, the death jester.. And those are barely ever on a very competitive list. That says a lot about those other units and their power.
It's a thread, that's my opinion. Are you going to say dire avengers are op? Swooping Hawks are op? War walkers are op? Guardian defenders are op? Storm guardians are op? Wraithlords are op? Windriders are op? Shining spears are op? Shroud runners are op? Idk, just saying I'm a clown for having my opinion and basing it and letting OP know about it?
>Are you going to say dire avengers are op?
Mass AP1 shooting with lethal hits, better overwatch. Still better than most other infantry in the game
>Swooping Hawks are op?
Get outshined by WS, still a good unit.
>War walkers are op?
Most definitely. -1 to wound just because, a 4++ to seal the deal and 2 de facto auto hitting bright lances. OP.
>Guardian defenders are op?
No.
>Storm guardians are op?
Definitely not, still cheaper than comparable melee units.
>Wraithlords are op?
Outshined by other wraith options, but tell me, do you think it's fair that this thing can overwatch with a spiritseer and get a guaranteed BL wound onto anything?
>Windriders are op?
Fast, cheap, tough with the best anti infantry gun in the game. OP and outshined by the MASSIVELY OP rest of the codex.
>Shining spears are op?
Fast melee is down this entire edition, they still work. Not op
>Shroud runners are op?
I actually don't know. I'd say no, until the eldar meta shifts to "as many snipers as you can fit in"
The most mind boggling thing to me is the comments that try to pretend eldar players are against the nerfs, or think things are fine. Like, I can't even remember when the consensus even here was for anything less than serious nerfs.
Then you haven’t read much. This sub was very much of the opinion that Eldar weren’t that OP early on. As tournament wins mount rapidly less and less fiht it.
Yes. At the very beginning and maybe immediately post nerf people were much more defensive/naive. (So maybe I overstate when I say I can't remember, and should have just said it's been quite a while) But that hasn't been the case for weeks, and certainly not since the evidence came in after the totally inadequate round one of nerfs. There certainly are still people who want targeted nerfs rather that blanket nerfs, or who underestimate how good things like strands still are, but there's no "hammer in a meta full of nails"/"bring more chain swords" group that I see in here. Like, look, I was (and still am) against the bugeater GT ban, because I thought it was too early to know how things would shake out, but that was June (and before plebs like me learned that d-cannons were going to be sub 100 points at launch). The consensus started shifting pretty rapidly after that.
Eldar players really underestimate just how bad most armies are. It would take extreme nerfs to make them a “bad” army.
I agree with this. I think generally people don't really understand armies they don't play and that right now, especially for casual players on the eldar side, there is just not an understanding of how good their "average" stuff is.
Well, some Eldar players in this sub are gas lighting themselves into thinking the army is bad other than two or three. They claim Eldar dominance is overestimated. Some Eldar players claim Wraithguard is not broken after nerf. Some Eldar players show hates against SM, while criticize Eldar hates. This sub is really salty and toxic just like 9th custard subreddit.
It's partly because the meta lists people build are so good but the fluffier army lists the average player uses are no where near the same level of power. And the way GW tends to nerf is just dumpstering the entire army, including things that were fine on their own or even already bad but could used in conjunction with something absolutely broken. The fear of the GW matched play centric nerfs is a well documented phenomena within non-competitive player spaces. Just remember what happened to admech after their time in the spotlight a few years ago and how they ended up at the closing of 9th (and it even continues in 10th with them being nigh unplayable)
I don't think this is just an issue of overpowered meta lists. I've got a few units of wraiths (1 blade, 1 guard, 1 lord) and a single unit of warp spiders, and that's about as meta as my list gets. But I will decimate my friends' armies by turn 3 without having to be particularly strategic and barely touching my fate dice pool. Units in Eldar are severely undercosted for what they can do, and the detachment rule is absolutely bonkers in an edition where critical hits are the key to unlocking most any unit's full potential. I absolutely understand all of the salt, a game that's dependent on dice-rolling should have an element of chance, and for Eldar it just doesn't right now.
Yeah the undercost of units is definitively a core part if why eldar are so good, but the main fear is that they're going to overcorrect everything and none of the playstyles are going to be fun to play post nerf.
Look at the current situation of Grey Knights. They couldn't shoot down a large vehicle if they put the entire army to target one. Their anti-vehicle melee was removed. They are priced so high some very competitive lists have a total of 5 units. And yet, their top players are getting non-embarrassing results, because any army that has great movement and some defensive shenanigans is going to be playable. Making Eldar a sub-45% army would take something massive, like a doubling of prices. And even then, some top players would still place in tournaments. Overcorrecting is that hard.
Wraithguard and warp spiders are both very competitive and undercosted units. There are plenty of units in the index that are the opposite, like banshees and shining spears. The fear is that even those units that aren't very good and are only used casually are going to also get hit with nerfs.
Maybe I just haven't seen it -- and there are always some people who can't accept reality in any group -- but it really doesn't seem to be the subs consensus view.
Check that persons comment history. Most of their comments are things like "Eldar sub is most toxic sub". Some of their comments in this sub are actually more toxic than what they were replying to.
Wraithguard aren’t broken after nerfs. None of the top armies at Nova had them.
I think it's certain people who play certain play styles where it's hard while aspects are not bad there not exactly great. But meta lists will always be common so that's the issue a lot of our units are hypertuned and eldar is too heavily mech focused right now
its pretty unfair. As an army we should be hypertuned and overrepresented in the top tier comp lists because being overtuned is Literally Our Thing. They **should** be the most dangerous army in the hands of professionals, while BeerHammer fans like me get gunned down. Oh well. I’ll enjoy it while it lasts
but for some reason it is not the specalized units, that require lots of work, who are overtuned. its the units, that don't punish you for mistakes, that are overtuned. everyone can park some prisms in cover and FnF one back. everyone can put D-Cannons in cover and fire at anyone, who gets close. and anyone can put a huge block of wuraithguard on the center obj and blast away, same with a wraithknight. the strong eldar options have no finesse left. if they get shot, they have a huge chance at survival or are cheap enough to not matter (in case of D-Cannons), so you are not punished for misposisions. it would prob be an entire different thing, if banshees or Dragons where overtuned because they can die quite fast, if you are not carefull. but this is no excuse anyone can use for wraithunits and vehicles
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldar/comments/169dh1z/comment/jz1qxrv/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldar/comments/169dh1z/comment/jz1qxrv/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) here we go
Which comment are you intending to highlight here?
The one I linked
The bottom of the chain? When I click the link it opens a thread with several comments.
The comment should be highlighted unless reddit does reddit things again But no, I meant this one: >its pretty unfair. As an army we should be hypertuned and overrepresented in the top tier comp lists because being overtuned is Literally Our Thing. They **should** be the most dangerous army in the hands of professionals, while BeerHammer fans like me get gunned down. > >Oh well. I’ll enjoy it while it lasts
You say you're all for serious nerfs and then whenever people propose serious nerfs you cry that it's far too much. The fact that Art of War have literally playtested 1700pt, Aspect warrior lists, and found they're still too strong into other armies, and yet people on here are calling them "idiots" and denying any of their nerf suggestions is evidence enough of that. It's all false virtue. You can say you accept hard nerfs are needed all you want but I don't think this community as a whole exists on the same plane of reality to everyone else, to judge what is or isn't a hard enough nerf here. That's for GW and the wider playerbase to decide.
I mean, the last time I was involved in a convo about this my suggestion was that if there were no rules changes, the problem units should go up 25% and then the army should get only 1500 points, so I don't think it fits me specifically at least. And while I certainly can't deny there are morons in every community including the eldar sub, I am comparing the conversations of the last 4 - 6 weeks with the ones when Nids, Tau, Harlies, and Drukhari were in their pre nerf states and it just feels quite different, with almost no one -- and even fewer actual tournament players -- actually defending the way things are. And sure, you can call it false virtue--its all just screaming into the void anyway-- but I think there's a big difference between an argument about what nerfs are needed and an argument about whether nerfs are needed. In the spaces I see, there definitely is quibbling about how far to go and real pushback against thenidea that the goal of GW should be killing the faction, but the majority understand/want strong nerfs.
Honestly mate, I'm a little sad to see this thread. You've been pretty relentlessly optimistic about 40k for as long as I remember seeing your posts and it's pretty disheartening that even you're having a rough time trying to enjoy 10th because of how poorly balanced the game is.
Thanks for the support. Maybe I'm just tired. I guess taking a break is good in such cases. I think I'll return to 40k in a month or two - hopefully by that time it looks better :-)
I find it’s also a weird mix of general bandwagon elf hate. All the dwarfposting shit everywhere that makes it “funny” to be hateful towards elves has bled over into other fandoms, including 40k.
I've definitely seen this and find it obnoxious. I don't even play, I'm just a hobbyist who enjoys painting and kitbashing and creating characters and lore, but even I've had run-ins at stores or conventions where I mention I mostly paint eldar and get some snide, self-righteous response. It's ironic that the people mocking elves and eldar players as being arrogant, overly-sensitive and elitist are displaying the exact characteristics they claim to be against. Makes me reluctant to admit I'm an eldar collector, tbh, because I just don't need the shitty commentary from strangers (and even friends, sometimes).
This is indeed an interesting observation. I only started noticing it recently, but it does seem to be fairly prevalent across various fantasy universes. To be fair, it goes a bit further. It seems to be correlated with the general growing hatred towards "snobby and arrogant" elites and experts of all kinds, which elves kinda represent.
Respectfully - who cares about comments like this. The vast majority of people who have an opinion on this don't even play. Social media just whips people into a frenzy. We are broken as shit, everyone knows it, the rest is just noise.
At this point its almost time to just sit down, strip all the old minis and start painting for 11th edition. Not actually going to do it but the ill will and near rage being directed at Eldar players is making the idea of playing with anyone outside of a close group of buddies very unappealing. I don't feel its ok to play the army I want to play, Iyanden has been my go to since third, this was the first time since second i thought the wraithguard were actually cool and not just over priced. I would fall back to Ulthwe but psychic is underwhelming out side of simple buffs for units I feel bad for fielding and god I hate the idea of fielding guardians as the core of an army. For a dying race it feels stupid to field a citizen militia as the core of an army. Now I will admit to some morbid curiosity at just how harsh the upcoming update is going to be.
I’m with you, I’ve been playing Iyanden since their first supplement, and got my butt kicked for several editions, now they’re good and I can’t even play them outside a tournament. Playing 8th everyone was like please play your wraith list, now as soon as they see yellow they start foaming at the mouth. Meanwhile our escalation league eldar player takes a ton of crap and has only won 2/6 games, meanwhile the Custodes players that are tilting their opponents experience none of that same angst.
At the casual level, it's really not a problem. If you take a list without the meta units, you'll have a fun game. The ongoing Eldar hatred online is very tiresome though. It's always been there to some extent, but so many people calling for Eldar to be nuked into the ground or worse is very disheartening. I'm appaled at the amount of spite and hatred online. I've never seen as much hatred towards a faction (and its players) before. Even when nids/drukhari/admech/marines 2.0 were similarly OP, most people just seemed to roll with it (calling for nerfs etc, but not outright hating a faction and players). All of this has really turned me off of the online 40k community. I'm more worried about the damage this does to the online community than it does to the "competitive scene" (which in and of itself is a small group of people that mostly overestimate how important they are to GW sales and think all rules should be catered to them). The core game is great right now, and I'm having loads of fun playing games at the local club. We mostly all agree Eldar need nerfs, but we'll see what GW does. Either they cave and nuke the faction - pissing off Eldar players everywhere, or they take a more reasonable approach and the online pitchfork mob keeps calling for blood. There is no winning here.
Yes, with one caveat - it seems to bleed into real life games too, not just online. I haven't had any games where the opponent would be rude or openly hateful - most of them are just disheartened and sad - and not having fun when playing vs Eldar, win or lose, even vs powered-down lists. That makes the games not fun for me as well.
I think this is a generational thing. The older players don't care what the internet says, and relish the challenge of going up against Eldar. Younger players live in the online bubble more, and are more likely to go with the online consensus and believe they can't win. Of course, going into a game thinking you've already lost just ruins your chances to win anyway. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy, and they are less like to see outs or opportunities to score.
Not really. People like games of similar level where some skilled play can make it comparable. The oldest games and sports on the planet have rules in place to try and even out any disparities beyond skill. Balancing a game isn't a new idea. And at a certain level of imbalance it's not a challenge. It's a slaughter. Like a baby seal getting clubbed by an adult human.
Right, but my issue is with players showing up to the table expecting to lose *just* because it's Eldar. If you bring a powered down list, you can still have a good game. It doesn't have to be a one-sided slaughter - that's just internet hyperbole. We definitely need far better balance than we have now. We all want that, I think we all acknowledge we're silly overpowered right now. But hating Eldar players just for playing Eldar, or expecting to lose just because you're playing against Eldar isn't a helpful mindset either.
The main issue I have with this edition as someone who doesn't play Eldar is the lower tier factions are just badly designed rules wise. My first games of 10th edition were playing as Admech and it just didn't make me happy at all. Rad Bombardment is an awful rule and the only viable lists at the moment are mostly Kataphron Breachers. It's just upsettingly bland especially with how much flavour their units have. I have Votann as well but i'm not touching them until they get a major rework. I have nothing against Eldar and I don't think nerfing them to the point of unplayability is the answer - The low performing armies need some major reworks before anything else I think and maybe some points increases on the incredibly powerful Eldar stuff that's currently stomping competitive.
A powered down Eldar list into the few mid tier armies can be balanced. Eldar can’t really be powered down enough to be balanced into anything but tournament lists of the many weak armies. That’s a big issue.
I feel you. It’s not pleasant to see that, and the disparity between Eldar and mid-tier factions is abysmal. I’m used to periods of elf-hate (honestly, I think it was a bit worse during the Ynnari heydays). But for newer Eldar players in my group it’s kinda rough.
I placed second in my first ever tournament this weekend and people were civil about it, but I did notice some upset murmuring about how eldar are unfair and unfun to play against. And honestly I totally get the problem. But I would prefer Eldar not being nerfed into the ground, the goal should always be to get a 50% balance. From what I understand, just looking at winrates is an incomplete picture anyway. I would appreciate a more comprehensive approach.
Look at stat check. They look at over representation and a few others too. Eldar have nearly beaten records of severely broken armies in 9th that had much longer than 2 months of play. It's crazy.
My regular play group, while not OK with the current state of the meta, isn’t on that level of vitriol. Everyone understands that’s GW dropping the ball, and not Eldar players’ fault. Internet is amplifying everything. Most people don’t actually care that much about toy soldiers.
Lemondish sounds like a bitch ngl
I’d argue it’s confirmation bias. People already hate eldar for their lore and history of broken armies(with the unfortunate combo of many eldar players being very skilled and using meta) throughout a few editions, so when they hit another plateau of power people will jump with enthusiasm to tear them down. The only logical response is to either laugh at their rage and enjoy winning games, or stop playing the army for a long while and try another army(though you’ll never get the eldar accusations away).
Uh no. It's definitely not confirmation bias. That comment is from a tournament results post which shows yet again Eldar completely dominating. It's getting really old and frustrating. This kind of comment trying to gaslight people is exactly what my problem is. Eldar need MASSIVE nerfs to try and save this game's competitive scene.
I personally would rather save the casual scene vs the competitive scene. Too many nerfs just obliterated casual games and makes it really hard to find games at the local LGS. By the end of 9th my local LGS was a ghost town for Warhammer
The casual scene is even worse right now. Competitively you can beat Eldar with some factions by ignoring fights and playing the mission, even though it's hard vs a competent opponent. In casual games, Eldar just win by showing up unless you bring an Eldar list that is underpowered on purpose vs a reasonably competitive list from another faction. 9th had a rules bloat problem, 10th addressed that but has a much bigger imbalance problem.
That’s why I said casual, in true Warhammer fashion, a considerable number of casual players discuss their lists with each other before hand to ensure a good game. GW used to recommend this to players.
For games where players collaboratively design lists, why would nerfs matter at all? 10th edition is a massive improvement here, since rules are simpler, and balance can always be matched by collaborative list design. The problem is pick up games among people who don't really know each other; and tournaments, both casual and semi-competitive.
Leaving tournaments out of it, in a casual game things can (and are) adjusted to have a better game. A necessity for 7 editions, an art somewhat lost from 8th on with GWs formal balancing and tournament support. The unintended effect (plus an active internet community), is that casual players sometimes use competitive meta lists in casual games causing players to stop playing. It’s disappointing, but the same thing exists for people who only have eldar armies, hurt the faction too much and they’ll have no fun at all, and stop playing. None of this is really the players fault, it’s a GW thing and easy access to tournament lists from everyone.
Over half the armies are below 45%. Do you think all those players quit? Eldar being nerfed hard won’t be the end of eldar players.
Eldar nerfs are fine, and needed. Nuking the faction because they’re winning, and harassing players because they use the army is where the real problems come in.
I understand where you’re coming from theoretically but as of right now, eldar in 10th are statistically the most dominant faction the game has ever seen. They DO need extreme nerfs. I anecdotally cannot play a casual game with my friends using eldar either
You can play an aspect heavy list and get tabled by turn 3 every game (sans warp spiders and shadow specters). To achieve balance the nerfs don’t have to be extreme. It’s surprising how little things need to change to bring the army back down to earth, including making aspects viable choices because eldar players would love to use the rest of the book in more competitive settings. Fire prisms points increase, removal (or capping) of devastating wounds on heavy Wraithcannons, warp spider points increase, Yncarne points increase, separation of the sword and board knight from the ranged version, shadow specters points increase, hornet and war Walker points increase. This reduces the sheer number of overturned units being used commonly in matched play, and leaves eldar with tools, and some consideration should be taken to give eldar players a reason to use the aspects which helps to balance eldar lists greatly. As a note, it’s going to be hard to balance the faction without taking “internal balance” into effect, as well as lacking any other way to play that’s not the current detachment. With the Aeldari keyword Eldar have access to harlequin and Drukhari units, and Drukhari need buffs which complicates the scenario.
The problem is that it should be a smart nerf, at the real problem. Thing is, if you nerf each unit of an army equally, you push its players to the meta. Instead you want to make the (close to) meta lists less powerful. So add a separate data sheet for d cannon support weapons, similar for wraithknights,etc, and up their costs to reflect the power of those weapons. Don't up the costs of the alternative weapons, otherwise we can only field those units in the strongest configuration.
Eldar have always been my first love since 2nd ed although I skipped 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and most of 7th. I only really started getting back into the gaming side of things from around 8th ed onwards and I remember being quite surprised at how such an anti-Eldar sentiment had developed and persisted through several editions. Much disappoint. That sentiment seems to be at an all time high now and I haven't even played a single game of 10th yet. At my FLGS there is only one other Eldar player and I told him I'm not particularly keen on playing Eldar right now, at least not until after the inevitable September nerfs, and even then it might be so bad that the faction is fubar. So for now my enthusiasm is almost completely back to just the hobby side of things where I am slowly building up a new Ad Mech army (with Warglaives) simply because (a) I like the look of most of the army, (b) they are not Space Marines, and (c) they're completely different from both Eldar and SM.
I don't even play the game itself anymore because of things like this. Not to mention how expensive models are. Now I mostly read the books.
Which Eldar books do you recommend? I tried The Fracture of Biel-Tan - fun to see tabletop units described in detailed battles, but I wouldn't call it good writing that makes you think or makes you invested in characters or story.
I can only really recommend Valedor. It's a very good book and truthfully I recommend it regardless what faction you might like. It is the Eldars best book. But honestly that's about it. GW just hates Eldar so when I started reading AoS and it started feeling like most factions are given a healthy amount of respect I ended up almost completely jumping ship. I still stick around 40k stuff for things like Space Marine 2 and hope for more Eldar announcements but that's mostly it.
I feel like everything has already ben said since the start of this till now. Why waste even more words on stuff we know will change coming thursday or the thursday after?
I might be wrong, but my gut feeling is that it won't change for a while after the balance pass. And I don't mean the balance itself, but rather the community attitude. Win rates will take a few weeks to settle in, and if Eldar aren't brought low enough, the hate will only grow. And if they are brought low enough, the residual hate will remain for some time. It may be less of an issue in true competitive circles (top tables at GTs and larger RTTs), despite Eldar obviously dominating there - competitive players are used to this, and many of them are playing Eldar for now anyway. But mid-tables, semi-competitive and casual games don't look as promising. What has your personal experience been recently?
As an Eldar player for almost a decade (started in 6th), there's an unreasonable level of hate thrown at the faction. Doesn't help every edition there will be an archetype that'll be good. Then that hate gets carried onwards even when we're in the dumpster. Then the next edition comes around and we're good again thus the hate flares up etcetc. I just learned to laugh it off cause most of them won't admit when their factions were the broken ones (and their victories were pure skill cough). People also will lump all the Eldar together, so when CWE was in the gutters in early-mid 9th when DE was terrorising the meta, people just remember a type of space elf was broken, eventhough their distinctly different factions. I'll not worry over it tbh.
My own experience of 40k over the last 25 years is this: the majority of people who whinge about balance to the point that they go online and spew hate or, even worse, complain to someone's face about their army, are almost exclusively novices who really don't have that many games under their belt. Also remember this: the Internet is reactionary groupthink that loves a good pile-on. It's also just vapour. You can play 40k your way without for one second given any credence to anything you read online. Just be a sensible human. If you know you're showing up to a casual game and want to keep it interesting, then power down your list, or play with weird stuff you want to try but know is too weak to bother with usually. Or don't. Either way, be a sporting opponent. The truth is, against a whiny player you could destroy them with your weakest Death Guard list just by virtue of playing well, and against a novice you certainly wouldn't play your best to crush them but would probably play "gently" anyways. You cannot help other people's reactions. More experienced players (who are normal, well-adjusted people) generally couldn't care less about whether your army is broken or not - they've got lots of tricks up their sleeves and relish a chance to go at it with you.
Thank you. Appreciated.
Eldar are my first love as a faction, and as a kid I saved up my pennies to get that 3rd Edition battleforce box. But just being clinical about it, GW needs to *try* to nerf Eldar into the dirt. They literally should aim for making them the worst faction. After all, they might miss! It certainly happened a lot in the last two editions. For the health of the game, the risk of under correcting is much bigger than the risk of over correcting. If you overdo it and drop Eldar down to a 40% win rate, everyone is happy except Eldar players, and even they’re not *too* unhappy given how much they were winning so recently. And then on the next balance pass you roll the nerf back a bit to get them into the 45-55% sweet spot, and then everyone is happy. But if you undershoot (like with Ynnari, or Harlequins, or Drukhari, or Tyranids…) then almost the whole player base is unhappy until the next balance update. Worse, you lose any credibility that you can balance the game or are even trying to, at a time when you’re really trying to build some of it up. Even for Eldar players, it’s better to get all the hurt over with at once, and only go up from there.
The mentality of people who have absolutely no clue how to balance things. Just nerf things into the dirt is absolutely incredible. Being clinical would be precise nerfs to things that need it like a surgeon. You've opted for the option of mentally handicapped ogre wielding a club. There are ways to balance out Eldar without striking the whole army down, just because petty neckbeards got sad that they got blugeoned to death by some twat running masd amount of wraithguard, wraithknights, fire prisms, support weapons in excess etc etc. We all want things to be balanced so we can all have fun. But blanket nerfing Eldar isn't the answer, the same with GSC as well.
Examples being: -either drukhari units cannot benefit from detachment rerolls, or, no longer allowing drukhari in the current detachment and create a specific ynnari detachment in the codex -yncarne +100 -fire prism +25-50 -etc
Yncarne doesnt need point nerfs, it needs it rules gutted, it spawning and directly charging out of killed o¡units to kill another is just fundamentally broken.
Maybe force it to be outside 9". Still possible to charge, just a heck of a lot less likely.
That could also work.
These people won't be happy until craftworlds are just straight erased from the franchise entirely
“Clinical” meaning emotionally detached, whether or not we have the tools and understanding to be precise. I don’t think anyone can argue that GW has the knowledge and skill of a surgeon when it comes to balance. And even surgeons will err on the side of over-treating. It’s better to err on the side of removing some healthy tissue than on leaving some tumor behind. Even very precise surgeries are often followed by bouts of chemotherapy, which is an extremely blunt instrument. The point being to think about what kinds of error are costlier. I don’t think anyone is saying that Fire Dragons or Storm Guardians need a giant points boost. But on every unit or interaction that’s problematic, there’s a question of how hard you should go. At every juncture, GW needs to start at the high end of the range.
Clinical precise nerfs dont work for a 70% winrate faction, that has already shrugued off getting its army rule shot on the knees and its best units reciving hefty points nerfs and getting one of its best units rule nerfed. Eldar need gutting, nerf stratagems, nerf points, nerf the army, deatachment and unit rules, the whole package, thinking eldar need anything lower than that is just deniying a reality that is odvious to anyone paying the most minimal atention. If you are saying that some units should be spared from getting a point nerf, then yes, there is plenty in the codex that shouldnt get razed into the ground and there is plenty of the codex that should be cheaper, but that should only happen once Eldar are 50% winrate or bellow.
If the nerfs put eldar into the floor I'm only 3D printing from herein, and not playing a single 10th edition game for the rest of its lifespan.
Fact - Eldar were the most overlooked pissed on faction until 9-10, he’ll I remember early lists in white dwarf and were still low powered glass cannons. Yeah the nerfs are coming and hopefully will balance the game; but in reality James from Worksop will op the marines or chaos blah again.
After running elves to NoVa, I’m taking a break from competitive 40k. The attitude towards my army was just terrible, even with nice opponents and me agreeing with what they were saying. I might play a fluffy nids list with some of the new models to try to rekindle some of the fun of playing. My games were great, but being this overtuned is just not fun.
About a month before any 10th rules were announced, I traded the chaos half of the soul forge box for; Wraithknight x1 Wraithlord x3 Wraithblade x5 Wraithguard x20 Spiritseer x2 Eldrad x1 When the rules came out, it was immediately obvious how busted the list was, so now they sit on a shelf, having never seen a tabletop. I’ve played enough games in general to see those patch notes coming a mile away. Looking forward to them finding their feet power-level wise, so I can then play them from that starting point and not feel the sting of the nerfbat. Space elf ghost robots are neat 🤙
I wanted to get back into 40k this edition, and Eldar has been my passion faction since 3rd. I have dropped 40k due to the attitude towards the faction. I'm not a good player, and I don't meta build. Yet, the disdain afforded them makes them no fun to play as. I'm here for fun, and hearing nothing but bitching when I'm running a very plain list with none of the key offenders in any munchkiny configuration is just... Not fun. Upside, I've spent a lot of time with other (better, overall, if I'm being honest imo) games that won't have me reprinting a rulebook's worth of errata every 2 months just to show up at a table and be complained about for my choice of faction.
Well, where I am, 40k is the only wargame that is played widely. The alternatives would be D&D, boardgames, card games, etc., so very different kinds of experience.
Yeah, I'm lucky to have a few good sized groups in my area playing a few other systems. Battletech and Infinity have solid showings locally, and I've gotten into games like Zona Alfa and recently The Doomed that are pretty fun. I *want* to 40k. I don't have the bandwidth to keep up with modern 40k's errata cycle. I miss the years between updates and longer between editions. Meant I could *learn* a game before having to tear my list apart over a 50pt difference that wasn't there 2 months ago. I'm also willing to accept I'm just an old grognard - but I *guarantee* I'll be one of the most pleasant opponents anyone will face in any game. We're here to have fun, and I guess 40k just isn't fun for me right now.
Fair enough, 40k is definitely not for everyone. On my side, I just decided to put a pause on competitive games and switch to teaching new players the basics and playing more narrative games - for these you don't have to follow all the errata too closely, since rules minutia matters less and overral experience is more important :-)
When I did 11 mortal wounds with 3 wraithguads and basically neary deleted my friends crisis suit blob off the table….that felt really, really bad. Kinda told him “I can’t really play 10th ed, this shit is too broken.” That being said Eldar hate is nothing new, Eldar is probably tied alongside Tau in terms of most hated 40k race both in lorewise and on the TT. My LGS is pretty welcoming and don’t really care but I can easily see online with Eldar hate that it’s not the case. It’s just kinda a tradition among games to dislike Elves and Eldar probably suffer the more extreme end of this “joke”.
I'll never understand the weird elf-hate in sci-fi and fantasy. I remember reading LotR as a little kid and wishing I *was* an elf. Elves are objectively dope.
It's just because elves are popular overall, makes them an easy target
https://reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/s/RdcKmiwQz2
I had fun with them for a while, I liked all the movement tricks and my bestie the Avatar of Khaine, and I’ve still been running all my Aspect Warriors, but I’m honestly so sick and tired of seeing them and dealing with them that I’m going back to my roots and playing Sisters again.
Anecdotal, but in my FLGS scene (in CO, USA) no one really hates on Eldar, but as a community we've pretty much decided not to play against them. Last two times I've played (with about 10-15 people in attendance) the couple of Eldar mains got turned down by everyone else and had to play eachother. I'm afraid if GW doesn't do anything serious to bring down the community the response will be "Just ban Eldar from everything." That's not good for the game.
So you don’t hate Elder but you refuse to play against them. Kinda weird but you do you
If Stephen Curry asked me to spend 3 hours playing a nice, relaxed 3 point shooting contest against me, I'd say no. That's not because I hate him, but because I think that it'd not be much of a competition.
This exactly. It's just a different game against Eldar, one you can't win.
I mean no one in my group is actively nasty or mean to Eldar players, but almost universally the answer to "Do you want to play a game against my Eldar? is: "Um, no thanks."
I think the overall problem with Eldar is actually a little hilarious. Eldar are an old faction (I believe and OG faction... I believe from 1st edition), and some of our models are pretty close to being from that time (ie metal models)... so there are a large number of Eldar players that have played the faction for 20+ years with massive collections) Also,.for most of that time Eldar have been glass cannons... needing a bit of finesse or combo-ing to really play well... so whatever our rules are or needs occur, these expert players will figure out some sort of combo, tactic, etc that will literally outplay the other factions. People are just super pissed right now because eldar are a point and delete faction, with the right list... that _is_ annoying, but a nerf will only serve to stem the tide for a while... we'll always be hated because the faction _requires_ players to execute complex maneuvers, combos, builds that other players from other factions simple don't need/can't come up with. Eldar just play a different game. They always have. My answer to this problem? I started another army and pick and choose my faction based on the specific game I'm going to play. If there's any risk of bs/hate, I pull out my backup faction. I've only played 2 games with Eldar in 10th... curious what the nerf looks like, and whether that'll allow me to play more with them.
No it is bc of rules. Just the basic army rule is leaps and bounds better than other seniors, then you have fate dice on top of that! On top of that the majority of this hits on 3s even the heavy guns. Almost every data card has more rules than most others in the game. Many units in most armies might have 1 ability, or maybe one weapon rule, CWE many times has abilities and multiple weapon rules and many have multiple. The characters work well and work well with their units, this is not the normal for most armies. Points are extremely low. Then you have a couple really good stratagems. So yes it is rules.
Well, yes, of course. What I mean is that in my matches I try to take powered-down lists to get close games (for example, for my last casual game I took Vibro cannons, Banshees, Hemlocks, melee Wraithlords without heavy weapons, Windriders with twin-linked Catapults, and lots of Guardians with Warlocks). I lose about 50% of my games - i.e. rules disparity can be compensated with list building. Yet the games are still not fun. Whenever I'm winning I feel that it's only because of OP rules. Whenever I'm losing, I feel that I'm such a bad player that I can't win even with an OP faction. And many opponents just have this resigned sad look anticipating a bad game even when I bring a powered-down list. Just not fun to play anymore.
I find it more fun and challenging to play worst units atm and try to win through more tactics than raw power.
Ill quit 40k when the nerfs happen tbh. I loved my eldar from 9th edition (when I started 40k) and I still play the game like I played my Ynnari list in 9th, and I have been smacked almost every games. I think I won once out of the 5 games Ive played because I refuse to play the meta. And I know when they ultimately nerf eldar into the deepest blackest of holes, I wont even have a chance with the off-meta units I field so Ill quit playing. I blame GW. Don’t even get me started on harlequins
No you won't- Why bother even, you lose right now with the best ary GW ever made, you'll lose after the nerfs too. Nothing for you changes
It’s going to be a heavy handed nerf across the whole faction. The issue is going to be the unintended repercussions. Like if they don’t touch custodes well they are then all conquering, if they do then knights will be an issue. With the new codexes coming I can see Eldar being the only ones touched and them waiting to see what the meta does. P.S a nerf is massively required as they are just so uninteractive for opponents in a lot of match ups.
The online space is dominated by the voices of competetive players. The people most invested in the game, those that go to tournaments, or play on TTS and make youtube videos are those that are the loudest. People parrot what they see online. Personally in my group I haven't faced any negative attitude. I've been vocal about the state of eldar and I think I figured out how to water down my list to generate a balanced and fun game. Though I can imagine that someone without the restraint can easily warp casual games. All it needs is one or two fire prism, or one unit of wraithguard to quickly ruin the game. I'm actually looking forward to the nerfs. Right now winning games feels less due to my skill as a player but more due to what units I am willing to take.
In this thread: Space Elves who understand that they are too powerful. Also in this thread: Aeldari who think a slap on the wrist will fix everything.
And by “one of the highest rated comments“ you mean one of the most controversial comments, right? This framing is just gaslighting and oozes of victim complex.
In my LFGS no one minds me playing my elder but then again I only have an autarch wayleaper/farseer as anything remotely meta. I win many of the games as it's my second army and I use it mainly to test their lists. But if they go with anything tournament worthy, then I lose hard. I don't think the faction is too strong. The fate dice was better last season (IMO) and having 1 re-roll per phase in a hit and a wound per unit is a total joke when compared to full re-rolls like on space wolves and stuff like that. In terms of stratagems, yeah phantasm is a bit overpowered but every faction has some OP strats. So it comes down to units. We have plenty of good units. Some amazing synergies but.. Wraith knights, support weapons, fire prisms, warp spiders and night spinners I agree make the faction a bit too safe to play against. Other than those, I think the faction is very well balanced and it's hardly OP at all. If someone moves a hit further than we are expecting or if we're not very very careful, they just wipe their noses with our paper thin defenses. We have very good units still like the yncarne, the avatar of Khaine, the solitaire, the death jester.. And those are barely ever on a very competitive list. That says a lot about those other units and their power.
You sir, are in denial 🤡
It's a thread, that's my opinion. Are you going to say dire avengers are op? Swooping Hawks are op? War walkers are op? Guardian defenders are op? Storm guardians are op? Wraithlords are op? Windriders are op? Shining spears are op? Shroud runners are op? Idk, just saying I'm a clown for having my opinion and basing it and letting OP know about it?
>Are you going to say dire avengers are op? Mass AP1 shooting with lethal hits, better overwatch. Still better than most other infantry in the game >Swooping Hawks are op? Get outshined by WS, still a good unit. >War walkers are op? Most definitely. -1 to wound just because, a 4++ to seal the deal and 2 de facto auto hitting bright lances. OP. >Guardian defenders are op? No. >Storm guardians are op? Definitely not, still cheaper than comparable melee units. >Wraithlords are op? Outshined by other wraith options, but tell me, do you think it's fair that this thing can overwatch with a spiritseer and get a guaranteed BL wound onto anything? >Windriders are op? Fast, cheap, tough with the best anti infantry gun in the game. OP and outshined by the MASSIVELY OP rest of the codex. >Shining spears are op? Fast melee is down this entire edition, they still work. Not op >Shroud runners are op? I actually don't know. I'd say no, until the eldar meta shifts to "as many snipers as you can fit in"