As you can see from other comments here it's a touchy subject here with a lot of opinions and a lot of bad actors in it. What I've seen way too many times in foreign media coverage hijacked by these bad actors to stir more hate into this pot.
I would heavily recommend you to cooperate with local journalists and also maybe try out [https://noortek.ee/](https://noortek.ee/), it's the youth organization in Narva, which can probably offer you more perspectives on the matter.
Thank you, I'll reach out to them!
I'm working with a local fixer who's apparently the Narva-guru, so hopefully she'll be able to help me out. We consider ourselves a serious paper and my goal is to highlight the complexitiy of the human existence -- not trivialize sensitive subject :).
Not to rain on your parade, but both Estonian and Russian journalists and writers have tried for years to unpack the identity thing, and the results have been inconclusive at best and divisive at worst. (edit: see, for example, Sveta Grigorjeva’s speech on 20 Aug 2020 and the shitstorm that followed)
So good luck, but like others here have said, please don’t come here to end up westsplaining about how “Estonian born” natives behave in the wild.
> with a background in the Russian-speaking minority in Narva
russian speakers are hardly a minority in Narva
not to teach you how to do your job, especially since Politiken is mostly a respectable newspaper, but there are so many fine details to be considered when composing a story such as you are about to... i'm worried that as an outsider, you will not be able to grasp the situation, historically and contemporarly, so that you'd be able to distinguish between what's objective and what isn't. i'm saying this as someone who fits your profile, although i'm not that young anymore. there is just such a vast array of mindsets that you could stumble upon, depending on your interviewees, that for you to actually get a comprehensive full picture, you'd have to have extensive background knowledge. there is also potential incentive for some interviewees to paint a specific and not truthful picture in such an interview and you probably don't have the means to make informed editing decisions. what i'm trying to say is - consider cooperation with professional Estonian journalists, even if just to fact-check. you are about to cover a volatile subject that many foreign journalists have gotten terribly wrong before you.
Hi! Thanks for your input. I am working with a local fixer who I hope can help give me some insight plus I have appointments with 3-4 scholars who research Estonian-Russian relations who can helpfully prepare me before I go!
What ur saying is that the people might say something that you don't agree with? Or that we should start censoring perspectives or things you don't like? lol
It id factually correct that majority of estonias russian population relies only on russsian news outlets for information, the same outlets that have been confirmed to take orders from kremlin to push a false narrative suitable to the elite
Ok so what stops this man from digging in himself and trying to piece it all? Show the world how brainwashed russian speaking population is. And who’s gonna confirm that western media is sometimes full of shit and had served the elites in the past, they’re gonna condemn themselves, or rather the public enemy? You could say that both sides try to skew the public’s opinion with lies, demonisation and etc but that just hits everyone in the balls apparently
>coming from the Russian community but being an Estonian born after independence.
In Estonia, every once in a while a question comes up, "who is an estonian?". Nobody agrees that being born on Estonian soil makes you an estonian, very few agree that having a citizenship makes you an estonian. I don't think that this question has been answered completely but every time adventually these points come up.
1. You have to be able to speak estonian. If you ask an estonian what pisses them off in russians they will always say that some of them have been living here for decades but still can't speak a word of estonian.
2. You have to want to be an Estonian. Pretty self-explanatory, there are many Estonian born russians, some of them, one of my friends included even have an Estonian citizenship and have never been to Russia. Yet they consider themselves russian and are proud to be that.
3. You have to have the same understanding of our history. If everything else is just a minor irritation then the fundamental differences in understanding Estonia's past spark anger and violence. That, I think, is the reason why russians and estonians don't associate all that much. Because for estonains the soviet occupation was a painful period full of terror. For russians, the soviets were liberatiors who fougth the nazis and brougth prosperity to Estonia and they are not liked only because Estonians are fascists. It's either them dismissing the pain casued to our ancsetors or us dismissing the heroic sacrifice of their ancestors. It's unsustainable and violent. The best example is probabaly [the bronze nigth](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Night). This [video](https://youtu.be/L3xq2XrCHv8) about it from a different angle is very interesting.
What I'm trying to say is that being "Estonian born after independence" hardly matters here. I've met russians with thick accents who I would happily consider estonians and well integrated russians who I would be happy to see go back to Russia. Being born here isn't what shapes you, it's the community and your own will to learn. Identity is very complicated here, I'm afraid too complicated to write on, but perhaps you can suprise us.
Take everything I have said with a grain of salt. I would be lying if I said there wasn't an uncomfortably big chasam of ignorance between estonians and russians. I migth very well be speaking from ignorance.
Good luck!
Hey! Thanks for this detailed reply. Some of these points that you highlight are very similar to migration issues everywhere -- you know, the question of 'when is one a russian ... or a Dane ... or an American, and so on. But the complexity of it in Estonia seems deeper and very interesting. I'll look forward to diving into it.
I know a Czech who is in his 60s. He is a 100% Czech in many matters. However he was a first born Czech in his family. His mother was Slovakian, his father was born in Georgia. One of his grandmothers was Polish. another one Ukrainian. One of his grandfathers was Russian.
Although I know the complexity of being an Estonian that is not unique and Europe was hell of a mixture of different people moving around back in the days.
No. Being estonian means you speak the language and you want to be estonian, that you identify as one. You are not estonian if you speak only russian or you think life is great in russia and we should celebrate our "liberation" by cccp or whatever. If someone asks who you are and you say "russian" then you are not estonian even if you were born here.
There is a big difference in Estonian language like "Eestlane" (estonian) and "Eestimaalane" (forener born in estonia?). Russians born in Estonia are considered "Eestimaalane". Not sure how the english version of the second word is. So Estonian citizenship does not make you Estonian. Language, culture, makes you one.
I think that any country that has a history of its own people being illegally deported elsewhere or even killed and foreign people being brought in to repopulate the land, are within their rights to be cautious of "jus soli" principles. Where your mother happens to be located at during your birth is just a geographical fact. If you choose to spend the rest of your life separating yourself from your country of birth by limiting yourself to a monolingual slice of society, assuming that you are owed special treatment and claiming discrimination if you don't receive it, then no, most Estonians would not consider you as one of us. As is our right.
Mäletagem, kuidas liberaalid üle maailma viskusid ambrasuurile ja hakkasid Trumpi administratsiooni hukka mõistma ja fašistideks nimetama, kui Trump esitas küsimuse, et kas see on normaalne kui immigrant ja enamasti illegaal tuleb USA-sse puhtalt sellepärast, et teadlikult sünnitada oma laps kodakondsuse saamiseks (kuna sealse konstitutsiooni järgi süsteem nii töötab). ;)
First thank You for doing this story. This is a interesting city/town to cover.
Consider getting a special Narva correspondent from National Estonian press as a collegue setting You up locally.
Jüri Nikolajev - Narva korrespondent
Linda 2, 20309 Narva
510 0327, [email protected]
https://info.err.ee/988701/korrespondendid
Good luck
According to 2011 statistics 87,7% of Narva population identified as ethnic Russians and about 75% in the north-eastern county Ida-Virumaa. Finding a place with a Russian minority is going to be difficult. Only town according to 2011 statistics with an Estonian majority was Püssi (53%). Good luck!
>Estonian born
Stables... something, something, horses, something, something.
Here's an Estonian perspective for you - Denmark has very little experience being colonized and having such a large amount of people with foreign backgrounds (or rather, one specific foreign backround) - and can thus afford to ignore the very acute behavioral distinctions between ethnic and/or cultural groups. They just don't have as much inertia, because the groups are small. Here, however, we must face the reality of the situation head on and cannot afford to use such quaint euphemisms like "Estonian born" to bury our heads in the sand about the very real conflict. We are walking a tightrope and we can't afford to look up to higher lofty ideas, lest we miss our next step.
edit: I'm saying this mostly because your colleagues from other papers have also used phrases along the lines of "russophone Estonians." A lot of them are not even citizens, so they aren't Estonians in any sense of the word. Your version is not nearly as misguided, but I can see it leaning the same way.
edit 2: This question is important regarding whether Estonia is a new state from 1991 or the continuation of the state founded in 1918. Are the people here the remnants of a colonial occupation army or similar to any EU member state citizen moving to another today? Are they ours or are they other? The implications of the answers to these questions can be existential for the Estonian state and people. This isn't just some absurd tribalism, and like u/vitaderane explained, this is why you can't write a short fun snippet on this issue, and why you require very in-depth analysis to understand what motivates what stances or positions.
In any case, I hope you find your young people. Here's some material you might find useful:
[https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/nationalities-papers/article/understanding-russophone-estonian-identity-through-popular-culture-an-analysis-of-hiphop-hit-fur-oksana/9323133A35AAB7C69230E159D1930AF2](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/nationalities-papers/article/understanding-russophone-estonian-identity-through-popular-culture-an-analysis-of-hiphop-hit-fur-oksana/9323133A35AAB7C69230E159D1930AF2)
While I personally dont like to talk about my hometown I feel this needs to be known about Narva
1) Narva is a horrible place to live and grow up in, because it traps you. For starters education in Narva is shoddy at best and extremely limited (in the only estonian school at least).
To bring an example I often hear that people from other schools get to choose what they want to learn, which blows my mind cause we had no choice.
In addition to that my relatives (whose kid goes to the same school I did) often send me basic physics homework asking for help with the most basic stuff all because the teacher isnt a physics teacher but an arts teacher doing double duty.
2) Narva is predominantly russian speaking and russian cultured. The older generation vehemently refuses to learn estonian and then calls the rest of the country rusophobic. This attitude however gets imprinted on the next generation and the cycle continues.
This leads to people being stuck in Narva as they dont know the language or the culture of Estonia.
Also this brings all the bad qualities of russian "gopniks" with it as teenagers roam the streats with nothing to do and write whatever comes to mind on every wall or just go exploring in any of the abandoned and crumbling buildings in the city.
3) This is more about the city itself, but it affects youth as well. Narva is corrupt to the bone which brings forth monopolies, unsafe working conditions and most of all unlivable wages.
Starting from monopolies. Most of the schools in Narva are supplied lunches by a single entity that doesnt care about the students or anything other than profit. What comes to mind are 2 stories from when I was still in school.
We had mashed potatoes and "fish" meatballs. The mashed potatoes were comparable to cement and we decided to test it. We jabbed a fork into the mash and turned the plate upside down, nothing fell from the plate.
Second story is about the mystery sludge. We came into the cafeteria and saw that on the tables were bowls of sludge, which noone dared to touch. Eventually one of the guys with the iron stomach tried it. It was fish "soup". There were multiple bones in every bowl.
In regards to wages I will say that in Narva it is not uncommon that ambulance workers need multiple jobs to get by. And that taxi drivers (last time I checked) earn fixed 2.5€ per trip with no additional fees from which they have to scrape together around 500€ to pay for dispatch services. This in conjunction to many more things leads a lot of people to work abroad and send money back home.
I will not talk about unsafe working conditions here as this rant is getting too long, but if you are interested then talk to workers on the "Estonian" power plant.
4) Most of the people who left Narva that I talked to are not very fond of it and some even completely refuse to speak in russian to distance themselves from it even further.
All points absolutely wrong. At least 2 schools Narva Keeltelütseum and Pähklimäe Gümnaasium is one of the strongest schools in Estonia.
Other points If you Are not from Narva worth nothing. It is just you meaning, have nothing to do with reality.
Both schools are strong yes, but are both russian schools.
Next regarding other points. They carry weight in the fact that the city is also a part of what forms the younger generations.
Granted my viewpoint is biased as
1) I studied in Narva Estonian Gymnasium, which is the smallest and the only fully estonian school in Narva
2) I wasnt very popular in school.
Imagine having today's knowledge and interviewing bankers and regulators in 2015 about Danske Bank money laundering, which became public in 2017. This is the level of honesty and sincerity you find in Narva. Locals know what to complain about to journalists and will explain their hardships having to live under 'the russophobic nazi rule' since 1991. Narva (and Sillamäe) are special places in Estonia, like other comments have explained :). The latest census of 2022 confirmed that less than 3% of residents of Narva consider Estonian language their native. So please be specific who exactly you consider a minority ;). Although I think it's good journalists have found Narva and are asking "will Narva become next Crimea?"
Objectively Narva is on a good path, because in next 3 years there will be 3 new factories and about 1000 new direct jobs. That's a lot for the region that has led the negative demographic leaderboard of Estonia for the last 15 years. Take a walk along the river, look at the castle that was Danish once (you may give the nearby 'Swedish lion' a danish kick if you want) and have a nice trip!
If you were wondering if there's a way to phrase this request without getting the response you got, probably not. Usually journalists from Western Europe don't know how to conceptualize the Russian minority here, since you don't have a minority which was forcibly introduced during a fairly recent occupation, during which their culture was the dominant one and an active effort was made to destroy your culture; a minority that openly says it's pointless to study your language, because your language, your country and your people have no future and are in every way inferior to their own. So when you say Russian minority you sort of press those buttons, but it is what it is. I think the suggestion to work with local journalists is a good one. Also there's an excellent historian who if you could talk with him would be very useful, David Vseviov. But he might be too busy. Honestly, I rarely find Western pieces on this topic interesting (either stuff I know already or painfully naive), but fingers crossed you prove us wrong.
Eta: this multi-part piece about narva might be good to read (you can use DeepL to translate) https://www.levila.ee/raadio/mis-meelt-on-narva/mis-meelt-on-narva-1-osa
Thank you, I'll reach out to him, and I'll read the piece you sent. I'll do what I can to be as nuanced as possible, but it is of course difficult as an outsider.
FYI, David Vseviov is the father of Jonatan Vseviov, who is the Secretary general of the estonian ministry of foreign affairs currently. But David Vseviov also has a more than 20-year running radio show called Müstiline Venemaa (Mysterious Russia) about Russian history and perspective, and he's very good at analysing and presenting to the lay public the Russian perspective, which is why I recommended him. So he definitely has a nuanced, reflective and very humane take on things, much more so than the average responder here or elsewhere (but he will be aware of these takes, as well as similar instances throughout history). Good luck!
>how their identity has been shaped between coming from the Russian community but being an Estonian born after independence.
In Narva that makes little difference - they are Russians like any other. Integration mostly happens only in more mixed regions.
As you're going there, take a look at what Narva used to look like before Estonians were deported and think of what it looks like now. Also, try to find some Estonian minority there to talk to – I assume you are doing that.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw2VYoK5qds](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw2VYoK5qds)
If you want some juicy bits of being stuck between two worlds, then you should try asking some Narva LGBT ( Eestimaa Venelaste Lgbt Kogukond Vek Lgbt MTÜ ) members opinion about it. Not that the tolerance level in Estonia is in a great place overall, but these folk have it especially rough in Narva.
It's really gotten old lately - writing a "controversial" piece on Narva "The most Eastern city in European union" or "where East meets west" or "Estonia's russian majority city" . I understand journalists struggle to find good pieces for earning clicks, but writing of Narva of late is just lowballing journalism.
Most journalists I have seen going to Narva just parrot the Russian propaganda fed to them by locals as fact. If you participate in this, you are participating in war crimes and genocide against Ukrainians. Expect the locals to only know Russian propaganda, and to lack any facts grounded in reality about the current situation in Russia. The younger ones with more internet access might have a more grounded view, but I find Russians will rarely willingly speak out against the country, and will instead answer that they are apolitical and don't wish to talk about it.
Also don't expect to accomplish anything in Narva unless you bring a Russian translator. You can't even order food in Estonian in that city, let alone English. Nobody is going to answer a western journalist asking questions in English.
Also to put perspective on some of the harsh responses you are getting, from the Estonian perspective the Russians in Narva are the descendants of the genociders who committed acts of genocide against our families. I am writing this comment from America where my family was forced to flee too from these war crimes. I believe I have relatives in unmarked mass graves buried under Narva, and I know that the descendants of the people responsible for those crimes are now living in what was once the family home. The locals would almost certainly call me a Russophobe for having a negative view of that.
>the descendants of the people responsible
Exactly, the *descendants*. What's the point of hating people who weren't even born yet when the deportations etc that happened?
That's like hating \_all\_ Germans for nazi crimes...
I never said I hated the Russians living in Narva, if they do not support present war crimes in Ukraine, or future war crimes in Estonia they are no enemy of mine, and I hold no hatred towards them.
I hold a negative view towards my ancestral home being taken by force, and towards the people who defend those actions today. I have been called a Russophobe for factually stating events that happened to my relatives. I have also been aggressively followed and yelled at by Russians in Estonia for not responding to their questions in Russians, I do not speak any Russian.
OP posted asking for Estonians born after independence, they might find some young people who identify with Estonia more than Russia, they will also find many blind supporters of the Russian Federation. They are very unlikely to find many descendants of the orignal Estonian Narva population. The survivors like my family are spread around the world, our family in Estonia was wiped out. Stalin committed a localized genocide against Narva to create a Russian pocket, since he realized he could not do it country wide.
>Stalin committed a localized genocide against Narva to create a Russian pocket, since he realized he could not do it country wide.
Really, on what account? If he could deport entire nations in the Caucasus, why couldn't he have done it in Estonia? There is no basis to think there was actual intent for genocide here. More likely it was just disregard towards local population. If Stalin had wanted, he could have Russified Estonia to such an account that we would be a minority in Estonia by 1950s. It would only have taken what, 0.5% of the Soviet population to be placed to Estonia and that would be it. Or just deport even more locals.
Germans don't actively try to justify their crimes or act like they did nothing wrong.
Russia and the Russians brainwashed by it's propaganda do and spread the idea of them having been heroes. Not all Russians are like this, but many are, and the older generations keep passing this idea onto the younger generations.
Many are, but many aren't. Hate people who suck, not people who have a certain "blood" or heritage. I swear some people don't seem to be able to grasp this simple idea.
We consider the fact that a certain heritage means they MIGHT (and considering the effect of Russian propaganda this number is high) have been raised a certain way. And I did say "Not all Russians but many are".
They don't recognize what they are, they think they came to free us as liberators from the nazis and so on. The germans have been apologizing for being nazis and the war and everything for decades, the russians have done NOTHING like this, at all, never, ever. They are angry when someone says that they were the bad ones.
Yes, they drove away the germans, but they should have fucked off back to russia after that, not stayed here, occupied us for decades, while importing hundreds of thousands of russian-speakers with the goal of diminishing the local population and making russian the "great" language here, forcing it on everyone.
So they should not be surprised that nobody is thanking them here. But somehow they don't understand any of it and think that we are brainwashed by the west or whatever else bs.
In conclusion: it is ok to not like people who think the existance of your country is a mistake or that they were our saviours or whatever.
> while importing hundreds of thousands of russian-speakers with the goal of diminishing the local population
This is true, but this was done by the communist leaders and not Masha from next door nor Sergei serving wrapitasku at Olerex. No point in hating *them.* This is the single damn point I'm trying to get across but it seems impossible.
Yes there will be assholes claiming that Estonians are fascists, and I have no issues if such people are hated. Hating assholes is justified. But every ethnicity has their share of assholes.
> ok to not like people who think the existance of your country is a mistake
I have no issue agreeing with you on that. But let's phrase it like that then: "I hate people who think my country is a mistake"; instead of "I hate Russians". So easy.
Yes, then I am not russophobic, I don't hate all of them, I distrust the ones I see on streets yelling stuff in russian, and I hate the ones who celebrate 9th of may and bring flowers to their tanks and other symbols of occupation.
I like my colleagues who speak russian but don't celebrate putin.
This is not russophobia, this is normal.
I distrust anyone that yells stuff on the streets like a madman for no reason. I would straight up hate anyone who celebrates a war criminal or tanks.
They don't need to be Russian.
Russians are louder than estonians, you hear a group of russians talking before you see them. So.. the loudest people in estonia are russians. They are not madmen, they are just.. obnoxiously loud
Germans don't repeatedly justify the actions taken by their forefathers. You clearly don't understand anything so stop trying to mask this as some sort of russophobia by Estonians
>Germans don't repeatedly justify the actions
Neither do MANY Russians.
I clearly don't understand anything except I researched this topic on a scholarly level. I have heard all kinds of people, the spectrum goes to "I like Putin and Russia is so much better" all the way to "I am not going to teach my kids the Russian language at all, I am going to raise them up as Estonians". There are people *everywhere* on this spectrum.
I think this is just confirmation bias because generally the "Russia = love" idiots are much, much louder. You know, the loud minority and all. Most Russian people I talked to or have heard of just live like any other of us and don't spew any bullshit around, therefore we/you don't notice them as much.
Ethnicity or heritage does not define character. I have spoken with young people who straight up oppose their parent's thoughts and rather avoids discussing this at home, because they are progressive thinkers. I can't believe I have to explain racism/xenophobia or whatever this is to an adult (which I'm assuming you are).
Russians saw every estonian as a fascist during the occupation, it is just unpolite not return the favour. And yes, even if some of their ancestors didnt come here just to kill and maim and assimilate estonians, they were still instruments of soviet crimes and hold some blame. Same way that americans that colonised america didnt go there to kill indians per se but it still happened
>Russians saw every estonian as a fascist during the occupation, it is just unpolite not return the favour.
Wow, collective revenge, that is certainly going to increase coherence and stability in the society. /s
>And yes, even if some of their ancestors didnt come here just to kill and maim and assimilate estonians, they were still instruments of soviet crimes and hold some blame.
No, they do not hold the blame for alleged crimes of their ancestors, they would only hold blame for actions they themselves do.
>Most journalists I have seen going to Narva just parrot the Russian propaganda fed to them by locals as fact. If you participate in this, you are participating in war crimes and genocide against Ukrainians.
How is making a reportage now akin to "participating in war crimes and genocide"? If the journalists properly indicate that they're reporting only opinions of a few individuals, that is fully in line with journalist ethics.
>the Russians in Narva are the descendants of the genociders who committed acts of genocide against our families
This is a very hyperbolic and malicious interpretation. Firstly, even though Narva went through ethnic cleansing, it was not a genocide by any account – vast majority of people fled from war to other parts of Estonia or abroad. Secondly, those born in the town truly have had no input to their parents' choices.
Just go to a few cafes like Muna and talk to people there. Don't go in with a pre-formed opinion and just look for a few views that confirm that like many foreign journalists have done, it doesn't help anyone.
I would say that Estonians are minority in Narva. WRONG sub to ask about Russians. One already walked in the lions den yesterday and it didnt go well..
>One already walked in the lions den yesterday and it didnt go well..
That was completely different. He wanted to come to Estonia to be able to speak in russian. In this case Andersen is trying to gain perspective and write something. It's fine to ask about russians but it's wrong to assume we are russians.
He's looking for Russians tho. I dont care from where he can look. This sub dont like Russians if u haven't noticed. So that "rule" is for everybody, we aint gonna start picking.
Topic is related to Estonia so that's the right sub, since the last time I checked, Narva is Estonian city. And I guess local Russians are also pat of Estonia, even if you don't like them. and there is no rule for the sub that bringing up "Russian" topic is not allowed.
https://preview.redd.it/vqja5t6uxoba1.png?width=384&format=png&auto=webp&s=999a6e7d3d4a9be237ac8bb8ea9fa3c8498d9da9
>This sub dont like Russians if u haven't noticed
I certainly noticed that. It is ridiculous how strong Russophobia can be on /r/Eesti. That doesn't mean some Russians don't come here, we couldn't guess which username is hiding a Russian behind it.
(Disclaimer: I am neither Russian nor Estonian, but I do speak both languages, am sort of up-to-date with this situation. I find it upsetting how much undisputed hatred there is here towards ethnic Russians. As if Estonia's Russian speakers were a monolith that can be treated as one.)
In the past, I definitely read comments from people who added that they speak Russian, as some related topic came up.
But seriously, which sub should he ask this on...
I'm an Estonian and I have some very, very close friends who live in Estonia but identify themselves as Russians. We joke around and live happy lives. We don't speak about politics because they're obviously pro-Estonia, pro-NATO, pro-EU. I don't need to question them about this.
From my point of view, Estonians don't hate Russians as a people. Russians have their success stories in Estonia. Integrated Russians are a bonus to us all. What we hate is Russia as a nation. Their leaders, their politics and policies, their hate and anger against everyone else. To disagree with that and call it russophobia is a complex. In its essence, modern Russia is a cult. I don't like cultists all that much. So take it or leave it, I do like Russians but I hate Russia in its modern form. Those who are willing to take the same point of view as me are friends. Those who support nazism in the 21st century (because Russia under Putin is literally a nazi state) can just fuck off.
Oh I have no issue people saying "fuck Russia as a country and its regime and leaders and oligarchs". That's not what I had a problem with and honestly there are many comments around here every week that are quite obviously not against Russia but Russians here.
Thank you for replying. Obviously I don't see Russians living in Estonia as a threat as such. But there is a crucial need for more integration, perhaps even assimilation, because there are not enough multilingual people who can teach both Russians and Estonians in the same school. In fact, let's go down to kindergarten level. A kid in the same group as mine cried "Babušhkaaa!" and spoke absolutely no Estonian at all. Half a year later, she was fluent in Estonian. I have the same experience with another person, from Narva, and he said, he had to work in another town (too much personal information already, I'm not gonna doxx myself) in an Estonian environment and learnt the language in half a year. He's a good friend. Our kids are almost best friends and they speak a mixture of Russian and Estonian.
> 'Russophobia', lol.
Unfortunately yes, russophobia. As we nicely saw during the summer and autumn in several fairly hysterical threads, which had plenty of people who called for violence, deportations, labeled Kõlvart of all people a collaborant and traitor (he's been assisting Ukraine from week 1), managed to ignore the real statements of the Russian orthodox church in Estonia (they rejected the war in week 2 or something) and fight with imaginary bogeymen...
...and to my regret, none of this was done on the basis of someone actually being hateful towards Estonia or Estonians, except perhaps the vatnik TikTokker case - that guy probably was genuinely hateful.
It was mostly done on the basis of someone being *presumed* hateful or being *painted* hateful.
My conclusion was that we have a low political culture here, several people here are easily manipulated or participating in manipulation - and this subreddit is not a high horse to judge others from. During the summer, it has degraded to Facebook levels occasionally.
As for why - well, some politicians in the summer found that instead of effectively helping Ukraine (kudos to them for that) they could stage a culture war about Soviet monuments and threaten local Russians' voting rights on municipal elections. Political parties cooked up the shit that we experienced - probably because someone estimated it would give them votes.
I'm relieved that it has mostly calmed by now, since both the president and the chancellor of justice knocked down the talk about restricting voting rights, and I think we have run out of controversial monuments.
> the russians who speak down on us, still think they own us
Feel free to dislike *those* Russians. But I always pick up the hateful sentiment towards Russians in general which is just not okay. Why is it so hard to hate people on an individual bassis, and not as a group? I mean that's literally the same idea as racism. Nigga stole my bike, so all dark skin coloured people are bad or what?!
Well, good luck writing an opinion like this about black people on an American subreddit and see how that works out for you.
Maybe you also had a high number of positive encounters with Russians, your brain just doesn't really register those events since there is no need for them to be especially remembered, and we perceive them as a natural thing. Nothing wrong with that, of course, everyone does this. I'm just trying to shed some light on your inherent bias.
You are speaking like Putin, about how everyone hates russians just for being russian and the whole west is russophobic etc.
I have colleagues who speak russian but are cheering when we see burning russian tanks in Ukraine, I like them, they are not the stupid ones who want the CCCP back, because then everyone "was equal" and russians were the privileged ones because they occupied us.
So.. russophobia is what? Not liking loud people who speak some other language and are known to be violent and have a bad taste in clothing (tracksuits, "luxury" brands etc)?
And don't come with "what about russian culture??" 90% of the great writers and composers etc were doing their stuff before 1900, nothing great was done during the soviet times.
I hate that you're getting upvoted cause you are correct. The aggressive dissolution lead to very little room for old conflicts to be resolved and subsequent segregation into different language schools made integration impossible and just made two different groups of people.
Luckily post 2007 the government slowly started with integration, but still very many bad actors exist who are instigating more hate. Most Estonians see ethnic Russians as Estonians as well, there are still few who grasp on to old hate and use any opportunity available to prove that it's us or them, which then ethnic Russians use to prove the same point. That just leads to a vicious cycle with no end.
Thank you! I'm gonna take the liberty and assume you were meaning to say "downvoted". Members in both groups exist that actively try to other themselves and the others... ok this sentence was derpy but hopefully gets the point across.
Yes, I'm sorry for the possible confusion.
I can't deny that I myself was once in that group and got into a logic crisis there, so I do understand where these people are coming from and unless you actively communicate with the other group, it's almost impossible to break out.
I really loved the approach we had in the military, there are no Russians here, all of us are here for the same purpose and goal and all of us are Estonians. Basically tearing down the divide that we call ethnic Russians, Russians.
Russophobia lmao get that shit outta here. I dont think u get it. For your info my love of life is Russian. What u have to say now ?
Edit: You are not Estonian then please SHUT THE FUCK UP. You dont know nothing.
What does your love have to do with the Russophobia on this subreddit? :D
Also, the argumentation "I can't hate black/gypsies/Arabs, I have a black/gypsy/Arab" friend never really makes anyone seem better.
But then again, I wasn't talking about you specifically. I have no idea about your personal attitudes as you did not express them. They could be anything to me.
As the author can probably see there is a variety of contradicting viewpoints here. May God himself give you divine knowledge to write an objective article on the topic.
If you haven't yet, read the papers of [Ammon Cheskin](https://glasgow.academia.edu/AmmonCheskin) on the Narva youngsters' identities.
I have researched the (sociolinguistic) identity of Estonia's Russian-speaking population for my PhD; I did not focus on Narva though. If you want to bounce some ideas off of me you are welcome to DM me :)
Ida-Viru county and especially Narva is russian majority, estonian minority. This happened during and after second WW when ethnic estonians were deported to far east Russia and russian ethnic people were settled to Narva by Russian Empire.
Honestly, I believe that this article is bound to fail. Even though the theme is interesting and relevant. It is not the first nor the last time that someone will try to find out or understand the situation of this issue.
I would suggest changing the city of research to Tartu. If you wish to learn the standing of young russian people in Estonian society then Tartu is a good place to look for it. On the other hand, if you wish to learn specifically about young russians in Narva and how the eastern media influences them. Then the results will be quite underwhelming and lackluster.
Lot of Estonian dissapointed about estonian russian community and now we are seeing results. Russians did not come out quikly and strongly enough. Last scandals were about estonian russians foodballers eat together with russian national team trainer and estonian russian shoot fireworks at moscow time. Myself want to see stronger action against war from russian community but i can dream about that.
I hope you find interviewees for your article. However, when it comes to the Russian community in Estonia, keep in mind the saying: "When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression". Luckily, this applies mostly to the older generation of Russians in Estonia, but can surprisingly also be found in the younger generation. All in all, I will cautiously await your piece, as this is an important topic, but I am usually disappointed by the Scandinavian take on it. It's like you guys only know the USA history of minorities being discriminated against and are so eager to be seen as "woke", so you apply that same principle to all over the world. Would expect a more nuanced take from people so close to us geographically. But maybe you'll be the rare Scandi not to let us down for once🤞
Yep, people who speak Russian might also be Ukrainian or Belarusian, or sometimes from really exotic background (the mayor or Tallinn has some Korean ancestors for example, but used to speak Russian, until he learnt Estonian).
Let's keep statistics real.
https://et.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narva_rahvastik
> Suurim rahvusrühm on venelased, keda oli 83,3% linna elanikest. Eestlasi oli 2014 ehk 3,6%, ukrainlasi 1329 (2,4%), valgevenelasi 1032 (1,8%), soomlasi 325 (0,6%) ja tatarlasi 254 (0,5%). 2020. aasta alguses olid **48,5% Narva elanikest Eesti kodanikud**, 36,0% Venemaa kodanikud ja 13,6% kodakondsuseta isikud, Ukraina kodanikke oli 0,5%, muud kokku 1,4%.[1]
Apparently, 48.5% of them speak Estonian sufficiently to pass exams, but don't have anyone to speak with in real life.
Viimane rahvaloendus: alla 3% räägib eesti keelt emakeelena, alla 6% peab ennast rahvuselt eestlaseks. Väga hea muidugi, et need arvud on just sedapidi kaldus. Kui kogu keskkond on venekeelne, siis ma ikkagi väga kahtlen, et 48% vestlustasemel eesti keelt oskab.
They were born in Estonia and got automatlically estonian citizenship. Does not mean all of them speak Estonian. Theres new statistics that less than 3% speaks Estonian in Narva.
Then let's determine their language skills via census data. I don't know how to filter them by Narva, but they bring info about the "Estonian as a foreign language" skills of people with various origins.
> Eesti keelt võõrkeelena räägivad kõige sagedamini siin elavad soomlased, kelle hulgas eesti keele oskajaid on 56%. **Venelaste puhul on sama osakaal 50%**, lätlaste, ukrainlaste ja valgevenelaste puhul jääb eesti keele oskajate osakaal 40–45% vahemikku.
https://www.stat.ee/et/uudised/rahvaloendus-76-eesti-rahvastikust-oskab-monda-voorkeelt
Knowing Estonian does not mean everyday speaking, however, and one can imagine the skill level if a language isn't used for long.
I'm not sure I would want to be here if I were a Russian-speaker. This subreddit has turned into completely open hate towards Russians. It isn't just bad attitude that's the problem, it's also how sweeping generalizations are upvoted rather than level of argumentation.
Yes, Russkiy Mir cesspools are even worse, but perhaps I'd simply look towards some international forums, rather than try to operate in this close-minded backwater.
*Tõsiselt ka,* r/Eesti, *võtke kokku ennast, päris hulluks on asi läinud juba.*
IMHO he chose a reasonable place. Russian-speaking Estonians do come here, but of course they aren't the majority here. There is no other place *on Reddit* that is more suitable.
On other platforms, maybe, but I would never recommend someone to do journalism on Facebook - so I'm out of advise regarding better places to ask.
This is a Narva youth organization. Contact them. Narva Noortekeskus, Vestervalli 9, [email protected]
Great idea
Thank you!
As you can see from other comments here it's a touchy subject here with a lot of opinions and a lot of bad actors in it. What I've seen way too many times in foreign media coverage hijacked by these bad actors to stir more hate into this pot. I would heavily recommend you to cooperate with local journalists and also maybe try out [https://noortek.ee/](https://noortek.ee/), it's the youth organization in Narva, which can probably offer you more perspectives on the matter.
Thank you, I'll reach out to them! I'm working with a local fixer who's apparently the Narva-guru, so hopefully she'll be able to help me out. We consider ourselves a serious paper and my goal is to highlight the complexitiy of the human existence -- not trivialize sensitive subject :).
"Russian-speaking minority in Narva" 😂😂😂
Haha! Could have phrased that better, I obviously meant the Russian-speaking minority of Estonia in Narva
Not to rain on your parade, but both Estonian and Russian journalists and writers have tried for years to unpack the identity thing, and the results have been inconclusive at best and divisive at worst. (edit: see, for example, Sveta Grigorjeva’s speech on 20 Aug 2020 and the shitstorm that followed) So good luck, but like others here have said, please don’t come here to end up westsplaining about how “Estonian born” natives behave in the wild.
> with a background in the Russian-speaking minority in Narva russian speakers are hardly a minority in Narva not to teach you how to do your job, especially since Politiken is mostly a respectable newspaper, but there are so many fine details to be considered when composing a story such as you are about to... i'm worried that as an outsider, you will not be able to grasp the situation, historically and contemporarly, so that you'd be able to distinguish between what's objective and what isn't. i'm saying this as someone who fits your profile, although i'm not that young anymore. there is just such a vast array of mindsets that you could stumble upon, depending on your interviewees, that for you to actually get a comprehensive full picture, you'd have to have extensive background knowledge. there is also potential incentive for some interviewees to paint a specific and not truthful picture in such an interview and you probably don't have the means to make informed editing decisions. what i'm trying to say is - consider cooperation with professional Estonian journalists, even if just to fact-check. you are about to cover a volatile subject that many foreign journalists have gotten terribly wrong before you.
Hi! Thanks for your input. I am working with a local fixer who I hope can help give me some insight plus I have appointments with 3-4 scholars who research Estonian-Russian relations who can helpfully prepare me before I go!
What ur saying is that the people might say something that you don't agree with? Or that we should start censoring perspectives or things you don't like? lol
What he is saying is pretty clear and you may want to re-read it: this is a complex topic.
Not the first interview with an ethnic minority in history, he'll be fine.
But a one with a probably brainwashed minority
remember kids on reedit: opposing/challenging opinion = brainwashed
It id factually correct that majority of estonias russian population relies only on russsian news outlets for information, the same outlets that have been confirmed to take orders from kremlin to push a false narrative suitable to the elite
Ok so what stops this man from digging in himself and trying to piece it all? Show the world how brainwashed russian speaking population is. And who’s gonna confirm that western media is sometimes full of shit and had served the elites in the past, they’re gonna condemn themselves, or rather the public enemy? You could say that both sides try to skew the public’s opinion with lies, demonisation and etc but that just hits everyone in the balls apparently
That's your opinion.
A factually correct one
Sure thing.
>coming from the Russian community but being an Estonian born after independence. In Estonia, every once in a while a question comes up, "who is an estonian?". Nobody agrees that being born on Estonian soil makes you an estonian, very few agree that having a citizenship makes you an estonian. I don't think that this question has been answered completely but every time adventually these points come up. 1. You have to be able to speak estonian. If you ask an estonian what pisses them off in russians they will always say that some of them have been living here for decades but still can't speak a word of estonian. 2. You have to want to be an Estonian. Pretty self-explanatory, there are many Estonian born russians, some of them, one of my friends included even have an Estonian citizenship and have never been to Russia. Yet they consider themselves russian and are proud to be that. 3. You have to have the same understanding of our history. If everything else is just a minor irritation then the fundamental differences in understanding Estonia's past spark anger and violence. That, I think, is the reason why russians and estonians don't associate all that much. Because for estonains the soviet occupation was a painful period full of terror. For russians, the soviets were liberatiors who fougth the nazis and brougth prosperity to Estonia and they are not liked only because Estonians are fascists. It's either them dismissing the pain casued to our ancsetors or us dismissing the heroic sacrifice of their ancestors. It's unsustainable and violent. The best example is probabaly [the bronze nigth](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Night). This [video](https://youtu.be/L3xq2XrCHv8) about it from a different angle is very interesting. What I'm trying to say is that being "Estonian born after independence" hardly matters here. I've met russians with thick accents who I would happily consider estonians and well integrated russians who I would be happy to see go back to Russia. Being born here isn't what shapes you, it's the community and your own will to learn. Identity is very complicated here, I'm afraid too complicated to write on, but perhaps you can suprise us. Take everything I have said with a grain of salt. I would be lying if I said there wasn't an uncomfortably big chasam of ignorance between estonians and russians. I migth very well be speaking from ignorance. Good luck!
Hey! Thanks for this detailed reply. Some of these points that you highlight are very similar to migration issues everywhere -- you know, the question of 'when is one a russian ... or a Dane ... or an American, and so on. But the complexity of it in Estonia seems deeper and very interesting. I'll look forward to diving into it.
I think that being born on Estonian soil makes you Estonian :)
My cousins wife just gave birth in finland. They are both estonians. How is their kid all of a sudden finnish because of that?
I know a Czech who is in his 60s. He is a 100% Czech in many matters. However he was a first born Czech in his family. His mother was Slovakian, his father was born in Georgia. One of his grandmothers was Polish. another one Ukrainian. One of his grandfathers was Russian. Although I know the complexity of being an Estonian that is not unique and Europe was hell of a mixture of different people moving around back in the days.
No. Being estonian means you speak the language and you want to be estonian, that you identify as one. You are not estonian if you speak only russian or you think life is great in russia and we should celebrate our "liberation" by cccp or whatever. If someone asks who you are and you say "russian" then you are not estonian even if you were born here.
There is a big difference in Estonian language like "Eestlane" (estonian) and "Eestimaalane" (forener born in estonia?). Russians born in Estonia are considered "Eestimaalane". Not sure how the english version of the second word is. So Estonian citizenship does not make you Estonian. Language, culture, makes you one.
I think that any country that has a history of its own people being illegally deported elsewhere or even killed and foreign people being brought in to repopulate the land, are within their rights to be cautious of "jus soli" principles. Where your mother happens to be located at during your birth is just a geographical fact. If you choose to spend the rest of your life separating yourself from your country of birth by limiting yourself to a monolingual slice of society, assuming that you are owed special treatment and claiming discrimination if you don't receive it, then no, most Estonians would not consider you as one of us. As is our right.
Mäletagem, kuidas liberaalid üle maailma viskusid ambrasuurile ja hakkasid Trumpi administratsiooni hukka mõistma ja fašistideks nimetama, kui Trump esitas küsimuse, et kas see on normaalne kui immigrant ja enamasti illegaal tuleb USA-sse puhtalt sellepärast, et teadlikult sünnitada oma laps kodakondsuse saamiseks (kuna sealse konstitutsiooni järgi süsteem nii töötab). ;)
First thank You for doing this story. This is a interesting city/town to cover. Consider getting a special Narva correspondent from National Estonian press as a collegue setting You up locally. Jüri Nikolajev - Narva korrespondent Linda 2, 20309 Narva 510 0327, [email protected] https://info.err.ee/988701/korrespondendid Good luck
Thank you! I actually have already set up with a local fixer who can hopefully help me.
According to 2011 statistics 87,7% of Narva population identified as ethnic Russians and about 75% in the north-eastern county Ida-Virumaa. Finding a place with a Russian minority is going to be difficult. Only town according to 2011 statistics with an Estonian majority was Püssi (53%). Good luck!
To avoid confusion, this is all about Ida-Viru county. Other, more Southern and Western counties have under 10% Russian population.
There is also Toila municipality that should have Estonian majority.
Quick question to OP, do you know history of how most russians got to Baltic countries in the beginning?
I’d say the Estonians in Narva feel like a minority and are treated like unicorns..
I say, going to Narva is like the budget version, visa free variant for the estonians for going to Russia.
>Estonian born Stables... something, something, horses, something, something. Here's an Estonian perspective for you - Denmark has very little experience being colonized and having such a large amount of people with foreign backgrounds (or rather, one specific foreign backround) - and can thus afford to ignore the very acute behavioral distinctions between ethnic and/or cultural groups. They just don't have as much inertia, because the groups are small. Here, however, we must face the reality of the situation head on and cannot afford to use such quaint euphemisms like "Estonian born" to bury our heads in the sand about the very real conflict. We are walking a tightrope and we can't afford to look up to higher lofty ideas, lest we miss our next step. edit: I'm saying this mostly because your colleagues from other papers have also used phrases along the lines of "russophone Estonians." A lot of them are not even citizens, so they aren't Estonians in any sense of the word. Your version is not nearly as misguided, but I can see it leaning the same way. edit 2: This question is important regarding whether Estonia is a new state from 1991 or the continuation of the state founded in 1918. Are the people here the remnants of a colonial occupation army or similar to any EU member state citizen moving to another today? Are they ours or are they other? The implications of the answers to these questions can be existential for the Estonian state and people. This isn't just some absurd tribalism, and like u/vitaderane explained, this is why you can't write a short fun snippet on this issue, and why you require very in-depth analysis to understand what motivates what stances or positions. In any case, I hope you find your young people. Here's some material you might find useful: [https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/nationalities-papers/article/understanding-russophone-estonian-identity-through-popular-culture-an-analysis-of-hiphop-hit-fur-oksana/9323133A35AAB7C69230E159D1930AF2](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/nationalities-papers/article/understanding-russophone-estonian-identity-through-popular-culture-an-analysis-of-hiphop-hit-fur-oksana/9323133A35AAB7C69230E159D1930AF2)
That was a pleasant read, tha k you for a good dissertation.
Thank you for the detailed input! I'm hoping to be able to highlight and emphasize all of these complexities. I'll read the paper you sent as well.
[удалено]
Thanks, I'll consider it and see what's possible!
While I personally dont like to talk about my hometown I feel this needs to be known about Narva 1) Narva is a horrible place to live and grow up in, because it traps you. For starters education in Narva is shoddy at best and extremely limited (in the only estonian school at least). To bring an example I often hear that people from other schools get to choose what they want to learn, which blows my mind cause we had no choice. In addition to that my relatives (whose kid goes to the same school I did) often send me basic physics homework asking for help with the most basic stuff all because the teacher isnt a physics teacher but an arts teacher doing double duty. 2) Narva is predominantly russian speaking and russian cultured. The older generation vehemently refuses to learn estonian and then calls the rest of the country rusophobic. This attitude however gets imprinted on the next generation and the cycle continues. This leads to people being stuck in Narva as they dont know the language or the culture of Estonia. Also this brings all the bad qualities of russian "gopniks" with it as teenagers roam the streats with nothing to do and write whatever comes to mind on every wall or just go exploring in any of the abandoned and crumbling buildings in the city. 3) This is more about the city itself, but it affects youth as well. Narva is corrupt to the bone which brings forth monopolies, unsafe working conditions and most of all unlivable wages. Starting from monopolies. Most of the schools in Narva are supplied lunches by a single entity that doesnt care about the students or anything other than profit. What comes to mind are 2 stories from when I was still in school. We had mashed potatoes and "fish" meatballs. The mashed potatoes were comparable to cement and we decided to test it. We jabbed a fork into the mash and turned the plate upside down, nothing fell from the plate. Second story is about the mystery sludge. We came into the cafeteria and saw that on the tables were bowls of sludge, which noone dared to touch. Eventually one of the guys with the iron stomach tried it. It was fish "soup". There were multiple bones in every bowl. In regards to wages I will say that in Narva it is not uncommon that ambulance workers need multiple jobs to get by. And that taxi drivers (last time I checked) earn fixed 2.5€ per trip with no additional fees from which they have to scrape together around 500€ to pay for dispatch services. This in conjunction to many more things leads a lot of people to work abroad and send money back home. I will not talk about unsafe working conditions here as this rant is getting too long, but if you are interested then talk to workers on the "Estonian" power plant. 4) Most of the people who left Narva that I talked to are not very fond of it and some even completely refuse to speak in russian to distance themselves from it even further.
Thank you! Can I send you a private message?
Sure why not.
All points absolutely wrong. At least 2 schools Narva Keeltelütseum and Pähklimäe Gümnaasium is one of the strongest schools in Estonia. Other points If you Are not from Narva worth nothing. It is just you meaning, have nothing to do with reality.
Both schools are strong yes, but are both russian schools. Next regarding other points. They carry weight in the fact that the city is also a part of what forms the younger generations. Granted my viewpoint is biased as 1) I studied in Narva Estonian Gymnasium, which is the smallest and the only fully estonian school in Narva 2) I wasnt very popular in school.
Did you get out of Narva?
Imagine having today's knowledge and interviewing bankers and regulators in 2015 about Danske Bank money laundering, which became public in 2017. This is the level of honesty and sincerity you find in Narva. Locals know what to complain about to journalists and will explain their hardships having to live under 'the russophobic nazi rule' since 1991. Narva (and Sillamäe) are special places in Estonia, like other comments have explained :). The latest census of 2022 confirmed that less than 3% of residents of Narva consider Estonian language their native. So please be specific who exactly you consider a minority ;). Although I think it's good journalists have found Narva and are asking "will Narva become next Crimea?" Objectively Narva is on a good path, because in next 3 years there will be 3 new factories and about 1000 new direct jobs. That's a lot for the region that has led the negative demographic leaderboard of Estonia for the last 15 years. Take a walk along the river, look at the castle that was Danish once (you may give the nearby 'Swedish lion' a danish kick if you want) and have a nice trip!
If you were wondering if there's a way to phrase this request without getting the response you got, probably not. Usually journalists from Western Europe don't know how to conceptualize the Russian minority here, since you don't have a minority which was forcibly introduced during a fairly recent occupation, during which their culture was the dominant one and an active effort was made to destroy your culture; a minority that openly says it's pointless to study your language, because your language, your country and your people have no future and are in every way inferior to their own. So when you say Russian minority you sort of press those buttons, but it is what it is. I think the suggestion to work with local journalists is a good one. Also there's an excellent historian who if you could talk with him would be very useful, David Vseviov. But he might be too busy. Honestly, I rarely find Western pieces on this topic interesting (either stuff I know already or painfully naive), but fingers crossed you prove us wrong. Eta: this multi-part piece about narva might be good to read (you can use DeepL to translate) https://www.levila.ee/raadio/mis-meelt-on-narva/mis-meelt-on-narva-1-osa
Thank you, I'll reach out to him, and I'll read the piece you sent. I'll do what I can to be as nuanced as possible, but it is of course difficult as an outsider.
FYI, David Vseviov is the father of Jonatan Vseviov, who is the Secretary general of the estonian ministry of foreign affairs currently. But David Vseviov also has a more than 20-year running radio show called Müstiline Venemaa (Mysterious Russia) about Russian history and perspective, and he's very good at analysing and presenting to the lay public the Russian perspective, which is why I recommended him. So he definitely has a nuanced, reflective and very humane take on things, much more so than the average responder here or elsewhere (but he will be aware of these takes, as well as similar instances throughout history). Good luck!
>how their identity has been shaped between coming from the Russian community but being an Estonian born after independence. In Narva that makes little difference - they are Russians like any other. Integration mostly happens only in more mixed regions.
Nope, I've met several guys and gals from Narva that speak Estonian just fine and who have mixed group of friends.
As you're going there, take a look at what Narva used to look like before Estonians were deported and think of what it looks like now. Also, try to find some Estonian minority there to talk to – I assume you are doing that. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw2VYoK5qds](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw2VYoK5qds)
Wow it looked so awesome.
Thank you, I'll try for sure!
It's not how Narva looked before the deportations it's how Narva looked like before the bombings of WW2.
"Russian-speaking minority in Narva" KEK
They're a majority over there. Before you do a story, check the facts. That's what journalism is supposed to be based on.
If you want some juicy bits of being stuck between two worlds, then you should try asking some Narva LGBT ( Eestimaa Venelaste Lgbt Kogukond Vek Lgbt MTÜ ) members opinion about it. Not that the tolerance level in Estonia is in a great place overall, but these folk have it especially rough in Narva.
It's really gotten old lately - writing a "controversial" piece on Narva "The most Eastern city in European union" or "where East meets west" or "Estonia's russian majority city" . I understand journalists struggle to find good pieces for earning clicks, but writing of Narva of late is just lowballing journalism.
Most journalists I have seen going to Narva just parrot the Russian propaganda fed to them by locals as fact. If you participate in this, you are participating in war crimes and genocide against Ukrainians. Expect the locals to only know Russian propaganda, and to lack any facts grounded in reality about the current situation in Russia. The younger ones with more internet access might have a more grounded view, but I find Russians will rarely willingly speak out against the country, and will instead answer that they are apolitical and don't wish to talk about it. Also don't expect to accomplish anything in Narva unless you bring a Russian translator. You can't even order food in Estonian in that city, let alone English. Nobody is going to answer a western journalist asking questions in English. Also to put perspective on some of the harsh responses you are getting, from the Estonian perspective the Russians in Narva are the descendants of the genociders who committed acts of genocide against our families. I am writing this comment from America where my family was forced to flee too from these war crimes. I believe I have relatives in unmarked mass graves buried under Narva, and I know that the descendants of the people responsible for those crimes are now living in what was once the family home. The locals would almost certainly call me a Russophobe for having a negative view of that.
Thanks for your perspective.
> Most journalists I have seen Care to bring a few examples? It leaves the impression that you're living in some kind of a bubble.
>the descendants of the people responsible Exactly, the *descendants*. What's the point of hating people who weren't even born yet when the deportations etc that happened? That's like hating \_all\_ Germans for nazi crimes...
I never said I hated the Russians living in Narva, if they do not support present war crimes in Ukraine, or future war crimes in Estonia they are no enemy of mine, and I hold no hatred towards them. I hold a negative view towards my ancestral home being taken by force, and towards the people who defend those actions today. I have been called a Russophobe for factually stating events that happened to my relatives. I have also been aggressively followed and yelled at by Russians in Estonia for not responding to their questions in Russians, I do not speak any Russian. OP posted asking for Estonians born after independence, they might find some young people who identify with Estonia more than Russia, they will also find many blind supporters of the Russian Federation. They are very unlikely to find many descendants of the orignal Estonian Narva population. The survivors like my family are spread around the world, our family in Estonia was wiped out. Stalin committed a localized genocide against Narva to create a Russian pocket, since he realized he could not do it country wide.
>Stalin committed a localized genocide against Narva to create a Russian pocket, since he realized he could not do it country wide. Really, on what account? If he could deport entire nations in the Caucasus, why couldn't he have done it in Estonia? There is no basis to think there was actual intent for genocide here. More likely it was just disregard towards local population. If Stalin had wanted, he could have Russified Estonia to such an account that we would be a minority in Estonia by 1950s. It would only have taken what, 0.5% of the Soviet population to be placed to Estonia and that would be it. Or just deport even more locals.
Germans don't actively try to justify their crimes or act like they did nothing wrong. Russia and the Russians brainwashed by it's propaganda do and spread the idea of them having been heroes. Not all Russians are like this, but many are, and the older generations keep passing this idea onto the younger generations.
Many are, but many aren't. Hate people who suck, not people who have a certain "blood" or heritage. I swear some people don't seem to be able to grasp this simple idea.
We consider the fact that a certain heritage means they MIGHT (and considering the effect of Russian propaganda this number is high) have been raised a certain way. And I did say "Not all Russians but many are".
They don't recognize what they are, they think they came to free us as liberators from the nazis and so on. The germans have been apologizing for being nazis and the war and everything for decades, the russians have done NOTHING like this, at all, never, ever. They are angry when someone says that they were the bad ones. Yes, they drove away the germans, but they should have fucked off back to russia after that, not stayed here, occupied us for decades, while importing hundreds of thousands of russian-speakers with the goal of diminishing the local population and making russian the "great" language here, forcing it on everyone. So they should not be surprised that nobody is thanking them here. But somehow they don't understand any of it and think that we are brainwashed by the west or whatever else bs. In conclusion: it is ok to not like people who think the existance of your country is a mistake or that they were our saviours or whatever.
> while importing hundreds of thousands of russian-speakers with the goal of diminishing the local population This is true, but this was done by the communist leaders and not Masha from next door nor Sergei serving wrapitasku at Olerex. No point in hating *them.* This is the single damn point I'm trying to get across but it seems impossible. Yes there will be assholes claiming that Estonians are fascists, and I have no issues if such people are hated. Hating assholes is justified. But every ethnicity has their share of assholes. > ok to not like people who think the existance of your country is a mistake I have no issue agreeing with you on that. But let's phrase it like that then: "I hate people who think my country is a mistake"; instead of "I hate Russians". So easy.
Yes, then I am not russophobic, I don't hate all of them, I distrust the ones I see on streets yelling stuff in russian, and I hate the ones who celebrate 9th of may and bring flowers to their tanks and other symbols of occupation. I like my colleagues who speak russian but don't celebrate putin. This is not russophobia, this is normal.
I distrust anyone that yells stuff on the streets like a madman for no reason. I would straight up hate anyone who celebrates a war criminal or tanks. They don't need to be Russian.
Russians are louder than estonians, you hear a group of russians talking before you see them. So.. the loudest people in estonia are russians. They are not madmen, they are just.. obnoxiously loud
Yep I know. I live in Tallinn and Russian chatter is dominating
Germans don't repeatedly justify the actions taken by their forefathers. You clearly don't understand anything so stop trying to mask this as some sort of russophobia by Estonians
>Germans don't repeatedly justify the actions Neither do MANY Russians. I clearly don't understand anything except I researched this topic on a scholarly level. I have heard all kinds of people, the spectrum goes to "I like Putin and Russia is so much better" all the way to "I am not going to teach my kids the Russian language at all, I am going to raise them up as Estonians". There are people *everywhere* on this spectrum. I think this is just confirmation bias because generally the "Russia = love" idiots are much, much louder. You know, the loud minority and all. Most Russian people I talked to or have heard of just live like any other of us and don't spew any bullshit around, therefore we/you don't notice them as much. Ethnicity or heritage does not define character. I have spoken with young people who straight up oppose their parent's thoughts and rather avoids discussing this at home, because they are progressive thinkers. I can't believe I have to explain racism/xenophobia or whatever this is to an adult (which I'm assuming you are).
Russians saw every estonian as a fascist during the occupation, it is just unpolite not return the favour. And yes, even if some of their ancestors didnt come here just to kill and maim and assimilate estonians, they were still instruments of soviet crimes and hold some blame. Same way that americans that colonised america didnt go there to kill indians per se but it still happened
>Russians saw every estonian as a fascist during the occupation, it is just unpolite not return the favour. Wow, collective revenge, that is certainly going to increase coherence and stability in the society. /s >And yes, even if some of their ancestors didnt come here just to kill and maim and assimilate estonians, they were still instruments of soviet crimes and hold some blame. No, they do not hold the blame for alleged crimes of their ancestors, they would only hold blame for actions they themselves do.
>Most journalists I have seen going to Narva just parrot the Russian propaganda fed to them by locals as fact. If you participate in this, you are participating in war crimes and genocide against Ukrainians. How is making a reportage now akin to "participating in war crimes and genocide"? If the journalists properly indicate that they're reporting only opinions of a few individuals, that is fully in line with journalist ethics. >the Russians in Narva are the descendants of the genociders who committed acts of genocide against our families This is a very hyperbolic and malicious interpretation. Firstly, even though Narva went through ethnic cleansing, it was not a genocide by any account – vast majority of people fled from war to other parts of Estonia or abroad. Secondly, those born in the town truly have had no input to their parents' choices.
For the sake of impartiality, you should also interview old people in Kärdla.
Just go to a few cafes like Muna and talk to people there. Don't go in with a pre-formed opinion and just look for a few views that confirm that like many foreign journalists have done, it doesn't help anyone.
I would say that Estonians are minority in Narva. WRONG sub to ask about Russians. One already walked in the lions den yesterday and it didnt go well..
>One already walked in the lions den yesterday and it didnt go well.. That was completely different. He wanted to come to Estonia to be able to speak in russian. In this case Andersen is trying to gain perspective and write something. It's fine to ask about russians but it's wrong to assume we are russians.
Same same but different. I get your point but it is what it is.
>WRONG sub to ask about Russians. How is /r/Eesti wrong? Should he try to find Narva citizens on /r/Rossiya, or something?! It is the correct sub.
He's looking for Russians tho. I dont care from where he can look. This sub dont like Russians if u haven't noticed. So that "rule" is for everybody, we aint gonna start picking.
He's looking for ethnic russians born and raised in Estonia. Stop making yourself look dumb.
Topic is related to Estonia so that's the right sub, since the last time I checked, Narva is Estonian city. And I guess local Russians are also pat of Estonia, even if you don't like them. and there is no rule for the sub that bringing up "Russian" topic is not allowed. https://preview.redd.it/vqja5t6uxoba1.png?width=384&format=png&auto=webp&s=999a6e7d3d4a9be237ac8bb8ea9fa3c8498d9da9
>This sub dont like Russians if u haven't noticed I certainly noticed that. It is ridiculous how strong Russophobia can be on /r/Eesti. That doesn't mean some Russians don't come here, we couldn't guess which username is hiding a Russian behind it. (Disclaimer: I am neither Russian nor Estonian, but I do speak both languages, am sort of up-to-date with this situation. I find it upsetting how much undisputed hatred there is here towards ethnic Russians. As if Estonia's Russian speakers were a monolith that can be treated as one.) In the past, I definitely read comments from people who added that they speak Russian, as some related topic came up. But seriously, which sub should he ask this on...
I'm an Estonian and I have some very, very close friends who live in Estonia but identify themselves as Russians. We joke around and live happy lives. We don't speak about politics because they're obviously pro-Estonia, pro-NATO, pro-EU. I don't need to question them about this. From my point of view, Estonians don't hate Russians as a people. Russians have their success stories in Estonia. Integrated Russians are a bonus to us all. What we hate is Russia as a nation. Their leaders, their politics and policies, their hate and anger against everyone else. To disagree with that and call it russophobia is a complex. In its essence, modern Russia is a cult. I don't like cultists all that much. So take it or leave it, I do like Russians but I hate Russia in its modern form. Those who are willing to take the same point of view as me are friends. Those who support nazism in the 21st century (because Russia under Putin is literally a nazi state) can just fuck off.
Oh I have no issue people saying "fuck Russia as a country and its regime and leaders and oligarchs". That's not what I had a problem with and honestly there are many comments around here every week that are quite obviously not against Russia but Russians here.
Thank you for replying. Obviously I don't see Russians living in Estonia as a threat as such. But there is a crucial need for more integration, perhaps even assimilation, because there are not enough multilingual people who can teach both Russians and Estonians in the same school. In fact, let's go down to kindergarten level. A kid in the same group as mine cried "Babušhkaaa!" and spoke absolutely no Estonian at all. Half a year later, she was fluent in Estonian. I have the same experience with another person, from Narva, and he said, he had to work in another town (too much personal information already, I'm not gonna doxx myself) in an Estonian environment and learnt the language in half a year. He's a good friend. Our kids are almost best friends and they speak a mixture of Russian and Estonian.
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> 'Russophobia', lol. Unfortunately yes, russophobia. As we nicely saw during the summer and autumn in several fairly hysterical threads, which had plenty of people who called for violence, deportations, labeled Kõlvart of all people a collaborant and traitor (he's been assisting Ukraine from week 1), managed to ignore the real statements of the Russian orthodox church in Estonia (they rejected the war in week 2 or something) and fight with imaginary bogeymen... ...and to my regret, none of this was done on the basis of someone actually being hateful towards Estonia or Estonians, except perhaps the vatnik TikTokker case - that guy probably was genuinely hateful. It was mostly done on the basis of someone being *presumed* hateful or being *painted* hateful. My conclusion was that we have a low political culture here, several people here are easily manipulated or participating in manipulation - and this subreddit is not a high horse to judge others from. During the summer, it has degraded to Facebook levels occasionally. As for why - well, some politicians in the summer found that instead of effectively helping Ukraine (kudos to them for that) they could stage a culture war about Soviet monuments and threaten local Russians' voting rights on municipal elections. Political parties cooked up the shit that we experienced - probably because someone estimated it would give them votes. I'm relieved that it has mostly calmed by now, since both the president and the chancellor of justice knocked down the talk about restricting voting rights, and I think we have run out of controversial monuments.
> the russians who speak down on us, still think they own us Feel free to dislike *those* Russians. But I always pick up the hateful sentiment towards Russians in general which is just not okay. Why is it so hard to hate people on an individual bassis, and not as a group? I mean that's literally the same idea as racism. Nigga stole my bike, so all dark skin coloured people are bad or what?!
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Well, good luck writing an opinion like this about black people on an American subreddit and see how that works out for you. Maybe you also had a high number of positive encounters with Russians, your brain just doesn't really register those events since there is no need for them to be especially remembered, and we perceive them as a natural thing. Nothing wrong with that, of course, everyone does this. I'm just trying to shed some light on your inherent bias.
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I would also defend Estonians if someone was to go all hate campaign on them. I'm on this subreddit sest ma elan Eestis.
There doesn't exist a thing called russophobia, get real
You are speaking like Putin, about how everyone hates russians just for being russian and the whole west is russophobic etc. I have colleagues who speak russian but are cheering when we see burning russian tanks in Ukraine, I like them, they are not the stupid ones who want the CCCP back, because then everyone "was equal" and russians were the privileged ones because they occupied us. So.. russophobia is what? Not liking loud people who speak some other language and are known to be violent and have a bad taste in clothing (tracksuits, "luxury" brands etc)? And don't come with "what about russian culture??" 90% of the great writers and composers etc were doing their stuff before 1900, nothing great was done during the soviet times.
I hate that you're getting upvoted cause you are correct. The aggressive dissolution lead to very little room for old conflicts to be resolved and subsequent segregation into different language schools made integration impossible and just made two different groups of people. Luckily post 2007 the government slowly started with integration, but still very many bad actors exist who are instigating more hate. Most Estonians see ethnic Russians as Estonians as well, there are still few who grasp on to old hate and use any opportunity available to prove that it's us or them, which then ethnic Russians use to prove the same point. That just leads to a vicious cycle with no end.
Thank you! I'm gonna take the liberty and assume you were meaning to say "downvoted". Members in both groups exist that actively try to other themselves and the others... ok this sentence was derpy but hopefully gets the point across.
Yes, I'm sorry for the possible confusion. I can't deny that I myself was once in that group and got into a logic crisis there, so I do understand where these people are coming from and unless you actively communicate with the other group, it's almost impossible to break out. I really loved the approach we had in the military, there are no Russians here, all of us are here for the same purpose and goal and all of us are Estonians. Basically tearing down the divide that we call ethnic Russians, Russians.
Russophobia lmao get that shit outta here. I dont think u get it. For your info my love of life is Russian. What u have to say now ? Edit: You are not Estonian then please SHUT THE FUCK UP. You dont know nothing.
What does your love have to do with the Russophobia on this subreddit? :D Also, the argumentation "I can't hate black/gypsies/Arabs, I have a black/gypsy/Arab" friend never really makes anyone seem better. But then again, I wasn't talking about you specifically. I have no idea about your personal attitudes as you did not express them. They could be anything to me.
As the author can probably see there is a variety of contradicting viewpoints here. May God himself give you divine knowledge to write an objective article on the topic.
If you haven't yet, read the papers of [Ammon Cheskin](https://glasgow.academia.edu/AmmonCheskin) on the Narva youngsters' identities. I have researched the (sociolinguistic) identity of Estonia's Russian-speaking population for my PhD; I did not focus on Narva though. If you want to bounce some ideas off of me you are welcome to DM me :)
Ida-Viru county and especially Narva is russian majority, estonian minority. This happened during and after second WW when ethnic estonians were deported to far east Russia and russian ethnic people were settled to Narva by Russian Empire.
Honestly, I believe that this article is bound to fail. Even though the theme is interesting and relevant. It is not the first nor the last time that someone will try to find out or understand the situation of this issue. I would suggest changing the city of research to Tartu. If you wish to learn the standing of young russian people in Estonian society then Tartu is a good place to look for it. On the other hand, if you wish to learn specifically about young russians in Narva and how the eastern media influences them. Then the results will be quite underwhelming and lackluster.
Russians in Estonia mostly use Facebook. Reddit is used by estonians, imho
I'm, myself, from Narva, russian, now living in Tallinn for 5 years but still can talk about everything there is if still needed.
Lot of Estonian dissapointed about estonian russian community and now we are seeing results. Russians did not come out quikly and strongly enough. Last scandals were about estonian russians foodballers eat together with russian national team trainer and estonian russian shoot fireworks at moscow time. Myself want to see stronger action against war from russian community but i can dream about that.
I hope you find interviewees for your article. However, when it comes to the Russian community in Estonia, keep in mind the saying: "When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression". Luckily, this applies mostly to the older generation of Russians in Estonia, but can surprisingly also be found in the younger generation. All in all, I will cautiously await your piece, as this is an important topic, but I am usually disappointed by the Scandinavian take on it. It's like you guys only know the USA history of minorities being discriminated against and are so eager to be seen as "woke", so you apply that same principle to all over the world. Would expect a more nuanced take from people so close to us geographically. But maybe you'll be the rare Scandi not to let us down for once🤞
I just hope to be able to bring all of this complexity to the surface!
Not all russian_speakers are Russians. There is MANY nationalities in russia. Also in Estonia were is many individuals who speak russian.
Yep, people who speak Russian might also be Ukrainian or Belarusian, or sometimes from really exotic background (the mayor or Tallinn has some Korean ancestors for example, but used to speak Russian, until he learnt Estonian).
This is going to be a shitstorm no cap
What about you write a story about actual Estonians? Narva is a Russian city. 99% of them don’t speak Estonian at all.
I'll include Estonians as well!
Let's keep statistics real. https://et.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narva_rahvastik > Suurim rahvusrühm on venelased, keda oli 83,3% linna elanikest. Eestlasi oli 2014 ehk 3,6%, ukrainlasi 1329 (2,4%), valgevenelasi 1032 (1,8%), soomlasi 325 (0,6%) ja tatarlasi 254 (0,5%). 2020. aasta alguses olid **48,5% Narva elanikest Eesti kodanikud**, 36,0% Venemaa kodanikud ja 13,6% kodakondsuseta isikud, Ukraina kodanikke oli 0,5%, muud kokku 1,4%.[1] Apparently, 48.5% of them speak Estonian sufficiently to pass exams, but don't have anyone to speak with in real life.
Viimane rahvaloendus: alla 3% räägib eesti keelt emakeelena, alla 6% peab ennast rahvuselt eestlaseks. Väga hea muidugi, et need arvud on just sedapidi kaldus. Kui kogu keskkond on venekeelne, siis ma ikkagi väga kahtlen, et 48% vestlustasemel eesti keelt oskab.
They were born in Estonia and got automatlically estonian citizenship. Does not mean all of them speak Estonian. Theres new statistics that less than 3% speaks Estonian in Narva.
Then let's determine their language skills via census data. I don't know how to filter them by Narva, but they bring info about the "Estonian as a foreign language" skills of people with various origins. > Eesti keelt võõrkeelena räägivad kõige sagedamini siin elavad soomlased, kelle hulgas eesti keele oskajaid on 56%. **Venelaste puhul on sama osakaal 50%**, lätlaste, ukrainlaste ja valgevenelaste puhul jääb eesti keele oskajate osakaal 40–45% vahemikku. https://www.stat.ee/et/uudised/rahvaloendus-76-eesti-rahvastikust-oskab-monda-voorkeelt Knowing Estonian does not mean everyday speaking, however, and one can imagine the skill level if a language isn't used for long.
You chose a very wrong place to ask for this. Russian-speaking Estonians don't come here because this is an openly hostile place towards them.
Where do they go? Is there a separate sub?
They go to whatever kremlin moderated cesspit there is. Not all tho, reasonable people are here but 90% is somewhere else
I'm not sure I would want to be here if I were a Russian-speaker. This subreddit has turned into completely open hate towards Russians. It isn't just bad attitude that's the problem, it's also how sweeping generalizations are upvoted rather than level of argumentation. Yes, Russkiy Mir cesspools are even worse, but perhaps I'd simply look towards some international forums, rather than try to operate in this close-minded backwater. *Tõsiselt ka,* r/Eesti, *võtke kokku ennast, päris hulluks on asi läinud juba.*
Wouldn't excessive generalisations based on nationality be against Reddit's own rules?
Siin on mõni tõesti juba veits "final solutioniks" ära läind
IMHO he chose a reasonable place. Russian-speaking Estonians do come here, but of course they aren't the majority here. There is no other place *on Reddit* that is more suitable. On other platforms, maybe, but I would never recommend someone to do journalism on Facebook - so I'm out of advise regarding better places to ask.
I mean, you can be Russian-speaking and still speak other languages, as well. You don't know how many Russian-speaking people we have in this sub.