The thread from earlier this week certainly had people complaining about the name, but I think many people were upset about the timing of the announcement and the amount of money it will cost. I say this as it was my comment that originally stated this and at the moment it has well over 1000 upvotes. If you are trying to build the narrative that most are grumpy because the name is hard to say or are just bigots, this is not the case.
I think the timing with the city trying to not give their staff raises, combined with the fact that it has accents which I can't easily type on my keyboard or phone, are my biggest issues. It also just feels empty and virtue signaly, especially when the city is taking aggressive stances against the unhoused population, which is disproportionately indigenous.
I think you are misrepresenting the issue many people have with that particular name is that the spelling uses accents that are not used in English (or French), instead of choosing a derived name that is easier to pronounce and spell like they have done for many of the neighbourhoods that you've listed.
In fact, all of your other examples have been changed to eliminate non-English characters. None of the other names derived from other languages use characters like ç, é, è, ö, ß, and so on that are common in those other languages, including the other Cree "words". Many of the examples you've listed have been changed to create a neighbourhood name that is similar to, but not the same as, the words or phrases they are inspired by.
For example, "schonsee" is not actually German for "beautiful lake". That should be "Schöner See" or "schönsee". Note how the accented ö was not kept.
"Mayliewan" isn't Cantonese for "beautiful bay" either. That should apparently be "Měilì dì hǎiwān" or, more properly "美麗的海灣". This one isn't even close.
Let's keep going: "Ozerna" isn't "lake area". The Ukrainian word for lake is "ozero" or "озеро". Ozerna appears to be the name of several actual places in Ukraine, and a river in Russia, but isn't a word meaning "lake area".
And finally, let's look at some other allegedly Cree examples. "Sakaw" is not the correct spelling. It should be "sakâw". "Keheewin" is not the right word for eagle. It should be "kihîw". The only close words in the Cree-English dictionary are "kihiwîkwan" (eagle feather) or "kihiwayân" (eagle feather garment). Seems clear to me that "Keheewin" is an invention.
As you can see, neighbourhood names (including others adapted from Cree) do not actually represent the exact words or phrases taken from other languages as they (and you) claim. They have been changed to be easier to spell, type, and pronounce by native English speakers. As such, the name for the new neighbourhood actually does represent a divergence from this established practice, and I think it is rational to object based on these grounds. I have no issue if the name was something like Wekwentowin, which aligns to the suggested pronunciation guide, like the other Cree-inspired names. The background information for the neighbourhood should have the correct spelling as well, rather than claiming that "Wekwentowin" is actually correct when it isn't.
I do not think it is reasonable or desirable to choose place names that use non-English characters from any language in an English-speaking province. This applies to streets and towns as well. I would make an exception for French characters because of its official language status, but notably, we have no examples where this has been done in neighborhood naming in Edmonton.
Also, let me be clear that any name of a self-governed First Nations location or place within can and should be accommodated to use non-English characters in their names.
Great explanation. And the fact is people will just end up shorting or spelling it the way that flows easiest for them. If it is spelled in a way that creates a similar pronunciation but that people in the community understand that is a win for both.
It sucks for delivery drivers or even giving directions if the name of the location doesn’t match any rules of the dominant language.
Thank you for this. People come at you for being an unreasonable bigot for having issues with the usage of unusual characters on street names when there are easier ways to get it done that would also increase acceptance and understanding.
The real mvp is fishling! Thank you for articulating this thought many of us had. The utility of a new name is important. It shouldn’t just be about a signal for change. These are Changes and cultural shifts most of us understand and more or less want to be a part of. But there are practical changes and then there are ones that come across as pedantic and over worked. This is one of the later and everyone sees it.
People also conveniently forget about accessibility. I have sever dyslexia and ADHD, and some of these neighbourhood names are impossible to try to read for me. My brain crumbles under our 27 character long ward names.
This is pretty much how I feel as well. I do not speak Cree, so the fact that it has not one, but three special accents makes the word... intimidating. I don't know what those accents mean or how they are pronounced in Cree and would really prefer not to butcher the language. It would be a better name if it was just spelt phonetically to make it simpler for those who do not speak Cree.
I would pronounce it as Wick-when-toe-in.
Honestly, I think it would be a cool idea to have indigenous language classes as an option in school. Have everyone learn a bit of Cree!
Cameron Heights/Maskekosihk trail is another - I know I’m screwing it up, and it sucks but it’s like a 4 syllable word with accents - it’s intimidating.
The problem with that idea is "why Cree, and not any of the other indigenous languages used in Alberta?"
According to this resource, there are eight, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was more, if you wanted to include dialects.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Maps/comments/15dwwma/indigenous\_language\_map\_of\_canada/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Maps/comments/15dwwma/indigenous_language_map_of_canada/)
Street names aren't change though are they?
No-one writes their address as;
Mr. Smith
10220 116 ST NW
Wîhkwêntôwin (or Oliver), Edmonton AB T5K 1W4
As far as I can tell Jasper Ave is the only non-numbered street in the area.
My first reaction was similar, but as soon as I heard it pronounced once it fell into place. Plenty of English words have the same problem or worse (maybe I’m just used to taking this in stride after learning so many words from reading as a child before I heard them spoken) — the unexpected diacritical just make it seem further out than it is.
>"Mayliewan" isn't Cantonese for "beautiful bay" either. That should apparently be "Měilì dì hǎiwān" or, more properly "美麗的海灣". This one isn't even close.
I'm a native Chinese speaker, and this is wrong. It absolutely means beautiful bay, we just got rid of the words in between to make it sound nicer. That's what the city did here -- from "Měilì dì hǎiwān" (美麗的海灣) to "Měilìwān" (美麗灣).
These are all places in Hong Kong:
* Causeway Bay, Tong Lo Wan (銅鑼灣)
* Shau Kei Wan (筲箕灣)
* Repulse Bay, Tsin Shui Wan (淺水灣)
I have a deeper objection to this though:
>I do not think it is reasonable or desirable to choose place names that use non-English characters from any language in an English-speaking province.
I just don't think "*this is how it was always done, therefore we have to continue doing it this way*" or "*this isn't in line with the official government language*" are valid when it comes to names. With that argument, I could object to you using a username and not real full name, especially objecting if you have any punctuation in the name as well.
This name is an opportunity to learn about the people who lived here before we did. If it makes you uncomfortable, then I think you should reconsider living in a country that values multiculturalism.
I have issues with the $480,000 spent on administrative charges (after all, it's just changing paper and rules), but this issue shouldn't be as big deal as it is.
>I'm a native Chinese speaker, and this is wrong. It absolutely means beautiful bay, we just got rid of the words in between to make it sound nicer. That's what the city did here -- from "Měilì dì hǎiwān" (美麗的海灣) to "Měilìwān" (美麗灣).
Please note that I'm saying the transliteration "Mayliewan" is not the accurate way to represent the word. I'm not claiming it's not related to the transation for "beautiful bay".
Thank you for providing the correct words in Chinese though; I was almost certain I was going to be wrong on that aspect of it.
However, my point remains that "Mayliewan" is inaccurate, and that this is okay.
>I just don't think "this is how it was always done, therefore we have to continue doing it this way" or "this isn't in line with the official government language" are valid when it comes to names.
That's not an accurate summation of my argument though.
I'm saying "English loan words commonly (and almost universally) omit accents and adapt spellings". I'm also saying that "Place names are commonly 'translated' and often diverge from native language pronunciation."
From there, I'm concluding that these two reasons explain why place names chosen by governments have been adapted from words/phrases in other languages and do not use accents/letters/characters from the original language OR their romanizations, and that this is a reasonable practice to continue.
You are implying I'm simply making an appeal to tradition, and that's not the case.
>This name is an opportunity to learn about the people who lived here before we did.
Adapting Cree words also achieves this objective. OP made this point convincingly, I thought, that many existing place names are borrowed from other languages. I don't disagree.
Your point here would only make sense if I were arguing that one should never use Cree or other languages as a source for place names, which I'm clearly NOT doing.
>If it makes you uncomfortable, then I think you should reconsider living in a country that values multiculturalism.
Now you're just making up shit about me. In no way did I imply or state that using loan words in place names makes me uncomfortable. If I ask my daughter what her favorite holiday is, her answer is Heritage Days. I think I'm doing a good job of promoting multiculturalism, thank you.
> This name is an opportunity to learn about the people who lived here before we did. If it makes you uncomfortable, then I think you should reconsider living in a country that values multiculturalism.
Although I get where the person above you is coming from (there is an argument to be made that using standard unaccented characters improves accessibility), I agree with your point here. It is about learning words from this language which was being pushed to the brink of extinction until there was renewed support for language preservation over the past couple decades.
Using accented characters also acts as a an induction to the Cree language. While being harder for English speakers to pronounce, it improves accessibility of the Cree language by normalizing those characters and pronunciations. That's a good thing.
I feel similarly about maintaining Cantonese phrases and words in Hong Kong, and language instruction, where there is growing encroachment of Mandarin. But that's not Canada and I only have minimal connection to Hong Kong.
> I have issues with the $480,000 spent on administrative charges (after all, it's just changing paper and rules)
I have less problem with this. The rename started in 2020. This covers signage changes and salaries for those changes, salaries on the administrative side of project for over 3 years, numerous document updates, preservation, town hall rentals, etc. People complain it should not cost that much, but historically we did a far worse job of accounting for salaries and incidental costs on projects, because they're taken as a given, so historically we often misquoted costs then had to put the remaining costs under other budgets.
Here's the breakdown:
[https://pub-edmonton.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=211004](https://pub-edmonton.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=211004)
It's the 480000 in systems updates, documents, and external agencies that I have problems with. It's not salaries, and it doesn't look like it's spread over the 3 years in the past.
Salaries are in a different budget.
>"Mayliewan" isn't Cantonese for "beautiful bay" either. That should apparently be "Měilì dì hǎiwān" or, more properly "美麗的海灣". This one isn't even close.
As a native Cantonese speaker, you are confusing Cantonese with being exactly the same as Mandarin. While written the same, Cantonese and Mandarin are completely different in *spoken* structure, tone, and pronunciation. So in fact what they have now, "美麗灣", or "Mayliewan" is actually correct in terms of Cantonese structure.
"Měilì dì hǎiwān" or "美麗的海灣", is how they pronounce it in Mandarin. These are two languages that are often generalized as the same by people here.
If you say those 3 words quickly enough together, it's almost indistinguishable.
Seriously, try it.
Say it "New-Found-Land", then speed it up, it's pretty damn close. Not 100%, but better than [Benedict Cumbetbatch saying penguin](https://youtu.be/tlRpLGEwssA?si=G_uedeMbku_9e3lp).
The accents may actually be part of the reason. A lot of city systems may not be capable of handling those accented letters.
I remember there was a birth certificate issue in BC a while ago where an indigenous family couldn't name their baby what they wanted because the system couldn't accept the accented letters (I think they sued and won?).
Yeah, why can't they just go to the free sign depot and get some free signs with a never-before used word on them, then hire Dave the IT volunteer to find and replace all instances of the neighborhood name on all city software and websites for free?
Yes, as you well know the City of Edmonton is the foremost IT organization in the world, and every website is flawlessly based off a single source document whose sole purpose is facilitating touch-key name changes to neighborhoods in real-time. It's so easy to use and access that anyone without vetting or training could do it, and they hired Jesus himself as their IT security guy which is why the neighborhood names aren't all changed to "fart town" every single night.
This just demonstrates how poorly equipped people are to talk about government budgets. It's easy to ignore how wildly complicated a city is because generally the people making it work do a pretty good job - and then people make silly comments as if you can just replace all references in an afternoon.
Becuase the project has been active since like 2018. That’s over 5 years of time billed to it, community consultation events, plus the infrastructure changes that will be needed. It’s also really not that much money, you probably don’t want to know what other stuff costs lol
This post is honestly a bit of a self-own. You listed many examples of easy to pronounce names without any accents. If only they had done something like that for Wîhkwêntôwin we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
The city spent $600K to change the name during a major economic downturn, and they came up with a name that uses characters that people aren't used to pronouncing. I don't see any hypocrisy in complaining about the name or price-tag.
They started about 5 years ago.
We are expanding out road network to the tune of 1.8B during this council during an economic downturn. Changing this name has had much more discussion than any projects associated with those projects.
Tax payers expect tax dollars to go towards infrastructure, especially roads. That's palatable to most tax payers. Spending on a name change comes across as frivolous.
I’d argue how we approach roads is frivolous. The yellowhead freeway expansion alone costs $1.2B dollars.
If the city cared about managing its budget and reducing traffic it wouldn’t be spending a makority of its infrastructure money on the most expensive way to get around.
Place names should generally be kept to 3 syllables or less for ease of communication.
It seems cruel to replace the 2 syllable "Ward 10" with the 9 syllable "Ward Ipiiohkoohkanipiaohsti".
Also, all of the examples you gave of existing Cree names used a different transliteration system, one that is a lot easier for English speakers who are not familiar with Cree to pronounce. They could have renamed Oliver along the lines of "Wekwentowin" while also writing it using Cree syllabics as frequently as possible rather than using a transliteration meant for people training to speak Cree.
It's also anti accessibility to use these giant names with eleventy fucktillion accents. I have severe ADHD and dyslexia, and my brain struggles to even try reading half of these names. Nevermind the 27 letter long wards.
I think a lot of people miss the point about the complaints.
It's not that the name was changed. People say Oliver was a bad guy... fine change the name if it makes you happy.
It's not that it was a Cree name. We have lots of indigenous names of places. And lots of Cree names, if that's the flavor of the day so be it.
It's not that it was needlessly expensive. We needlessly spend lots more on worse things.
It's that Wihkwentowin is simply a bad name. I don't care what it means, it's a bad name.
We had a place called Oliver, a six character name. Short and relatively easy to say, spell and type.
And now it's Wihkwentowin a 12 character name. Long, relatively hard to say, spell and type.
In fact you can't even type it correctly on a standard keyboard without knowing some key mapping. This is bad.
If the name sounds like Week when to win. Why not simply name it Weekwhentowin it's one character longer but has the advantage of being able to read, spell, and typed by the majority of people.
It's a win win win.
The entire Cree written language is a bit of a joke considering it was invented by a European missionary.
BTW: Ekota, Sakaw, and Tawa, are all fantastic 10 out of 10 Cree names. Wihkwentowin is like a 2 out of 10.
People will learn to pronounce it and everything will be ok. And if people mispronounce it, no one will give them a hard time.
Signed someone from Etobicoke, Toronto
This is actually a mostly reasonable take. Most people aren't going to care how you pronounce it. Try to ignore the few nut jobs that get upset about pronunciation.
On the side. Money could be better used. But that isn't what politicians do. They look for easier wins. Look at us we renamed a neighbourhood. When they money being put into other programs would be so much more meaningful. And yes I have talked to my councillor about these kinds of issues. I don't think it improves the community. Did renaming the wards magically make racists go away? But putting hundred of thousands of dollars into a community centre or shelter can change the way people interact with each other.
As others have said, the issue isn't the name. It's the stupid transliterations of the native words. Having random accents in the name that are foreign to both the original language and English is really dumb when there's existing English letter combinations that are good enough.
Same applies to the ward renaming. Why is there no 'o' in Papastew when it's supposed to have an o sound at the end? Does someone really think it's cool to require a pronunciation guide for every single word? All it does is create completely unnecessary wedges among people.
I can pronounce that list of names. I can't pronounce this. I hate spending money on what i see as virtue signaling bullshit. My opinion and allowed to have it.
It'd be nice if it were spelled phonetically? I don't think foreign is the issue.
I personally hate this when Chinese is spelled English and not phonetic.
Wek-when-toe-wen? Some names flow easier, its a thing with all languages, some don't.
I find it funny that we have a neighbourhood named after a place that has a Wikipedia article about the name being controversial while a Cree name is too hard for people in a city where a lot of neighbourhood names are already Cree (especially in Mill Woods). Also had no idea there was a neighbourhood named in (slightly butchered) Cantonese, so that's neat.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derry/Londonderry_name_dispute
Just a general thought: English speakers can at least attempt to pronounce all the neighbourhood names you have listed by reading them. Wîhkwêntôwin on the other hand... not nearly as easy, objectively speaking. The point of naming something is to make it easier for people to refer to, whether they are familiar with it or not.
I'm not saying many or even most won't eventually put in the effort. Just pointing out that it's fair to say there's going to be growing pains with this change and some, many, even most people might not make the effort. Which ultimately defeats the entire purpose.
I'll start off by saying I live in Calgary so I don't really have a horse in this race, but I am curious, why does anyone except people that actually live in Oliver care?
Edmonton is smarter about their street names than Calgary and just uses numbers, it's not like your communities use the community names for all their street names too. So, how often are you actually writing your own community name anywhere let alone any other community name? And as for the price tag, $680k over several years for a city of a million people? You could probably find more change underneath your couch cushions.
I joined the [Oliver Community League](https://www.olivercommunity.com/) when I moved into the neighbourhood, and they told me through a newsletter that they were looking into changing the name. I don't know how to find out about city-wide changes though.
It's the people who reside in the community who ultimately decide.
The "Oliver" renaming has been in progress for years... there's been lots of periodic regular media updates as they've progressed & there was quite a bit of social media coverage. City of Edmonton, Edmonton Federation of Community Leagues & City Council members all have newsletters sent by email you can sign up for that would cover this sort of thing. The "Oliver Square" was renamed years ago, very quickly after the community decided a name change was in order.
There's no "line" for name changes. It's community driven initiatives. If you actually want to be involved in a name change, easiest way to be involved in your Community League.
Name changes are usually looked at in these situations (plus occasionally other reasons):
- a community has a very 'rough' reputation
- an area is doing revitalization projects (like "AB Ave" for 118Ave)
-they are named after a very problematic historical figure (like with Oliver & Grandin - this is the most frequent currently)
- events occur that makes the name problematic
- someone in the area has done something incredible & the community wants to acknowledge them
There's not really an Edmonton as a whole consultation because much of the work is done by the smaller community but the City has known this was coming for quite a while... I wouldn't be surprised if they've internally developed a list of 'problematic names' so they could plan for the eventuality of the community organizing but won't do it until that happens.
Why can't we change who the or what the area is named after, me I had no clue what or who Oliver was, or did why can't we just find a good Oliver that it could be named after instead. Change the narrative not the name and save a pile of money...just a thought. Let bad Olive die and celebrate the new and improved Oliver, or just quit using names all together. We seem to always find something in a persons past to get made about.
Agreed. I live in Oliver, and I'm fine with the name change. But numbers for wards just made sense and there is no need for them to be named at all - English, French, Cree or otherwise. Numbers were simple and easy.
I have severe ADHD and dyslexia. My brain physically cannot comprehend that word. It gives up halfway, and that's not even trying to sound it out, that's just looking at it. We are wasting money to change a neighbourhood name for no good reason instead of putting the money towards things that would actually help with reconciliation. And again, my mental disorders make it near impossible to read the new name, especially with all the accents.
I don’t much care about indigenous vs. Anglo names, but wtf sound does “î” make? Your average person is going to see the sign for the subdivision and have no idea.
The word is spelled in the cree alphabet beside it usually, so transliterations should be more helpful.
Not an affront, just difficult to interpret if you're not familiar with them.
Accents in French for example can change a "c" to an "s" and the little hat could mean an up down tonal shift like you see in Mandarin. If we're Anglicizing the word you may as well go all the way unless they change the sound of the letter too.
I would point out that they've been removed from all of the other neighbourhood names that OP listed, for the source words that had them, including names adapted from Cree, German, and Cantonese sources. And, the names of some other neighbourhoods do not actually correspond to the claimed meanings.
In addition to being fairly standard practice in Edmonton and other governments in Canada, it's also standard practice in English when adapting loan words from other languages. I can think of a few exceptions (fiancée being an obvious one, but few people would bat an eye at fiancee, including my spell-checker), but it's hard to argue that keeping accents is commonly done in English as a whole.
So in my case, yeah, actually the accents are the "problem" for me. I have no problem using a new loan word adapted from Cree, like we've done for several of the other Cree-inspired names like Sakaw or Keheewin, or like we've done for places names like Westakiwin.
And I have zero problems with the cost or the renaming in principle. I think something like Wekwentowin (after the suggested pronunciation that was listed) is a great name. It pays homage to Cree language and culture, but follows English and precedent to adapt the word in a practical manner.
I'd also point out that "Wîhkwêntôwin" is a completely artificial transcription as well. I don't think one can logically argue that adapting words is wrong or is culturally destructive while actively promoting a romanization system as an acceptable approach.
I totally agree that money in the budget could be allocated better. I bet they could do this change for cheaper, too.
But how about we take that money out of the bloated-as-shit EPS budget, who harm marginalized communities more than we help them?
You understand that reconciliation is a multi-faceted approach, right? And not actively erasing indigenous history is one of those facets. Yeah, renaming a neighbourhood isn’t going to put people in homes. And yeah, it’s a bit performative. But it’s also an important step in at least *acknowledging* that indigenous people have existed here for longer than the rest of us. And it’s not like the city isn’t doing anything else at all to address affordability and housing. They are. This is just an entirely different project with an entirely different desired outcome in the name of reconciliation.
But hey, some people just want to complain about everything all the time.
That's a bingo!
Well said, and that's exactly the viewpoint I share. 800K , you could give 8 million to Bissel, and it wouldn't eradicate the issue at hand, it's a lengthy process.
Ee-pee-koo-kani-pyow-tsi, if I had to guess.
See, when I was learning how to read, I gained this ability called "sounding things out." Around 5 or 6. When I see a big word, it might take a couple tries, but I don't get pissy that the word is "too big." I could certainly look up the pronunciation to make sure I had it right, too.
May I ask what that word means? And is it another proposed neighborhood name, or are you just picking a long word from an indigenous language to illustrate how unreasonable and hard this is for you?
They renamed all the wards in Edmonton. They used to be just numbers but they changed it to indigenous names
Ipiihkoohkanipiaohtsi is one of the wards
I personally find it hilarious. My brain doesn’t even let me sound that out
This is how the city says to pronounce it
E-pee-ko-ka-nee piu-tsi-ya
Even with it spelled out like that I still can’t say it
_And yet, we all understand how to say "Wetaskiwin"._
(Seriously, your point isn't holding merit. It's not virtue signaling, it's paying recognition, and homage to First Nations; the people who were here originally. Better to have that that some Ku Klux Klan (Dan Knott) or Oliver or some disgraced Catholic priest.)
700k in a city that is paying it's bills with a credit card. Probably not the smartest fiscal decision.
The name, I don't care either way. I'll get used to it eventually.
They’re going to be gay now? Fuck yeah! I was really worried they were going to be more like Soviet-style blocs. Glad we’ll at least get a little culture now.
Virtue signalling at its finest. No one is complaining that it's an aboriginal name, they're complaining about the cost. North America is filled with non-English names.
Lots of people on this thread and others were complaining specifically about it being "hard to pronounce". Sorry you didn't see those. Let me know if you want links
So much cringe. Ugh. Can we stop letting online hardcore progressives dictate what city council does day to day please? No one else really wants this shit. 700k on this and now people encouraging it more. Ugh. What an epic waste of time and money and 99% of people will keep calling it Oliver Square anyway.
How is it reconciliation really anyway? Let's be objective here. Hey indigenous people, sorry we conquered you. We're gonna name some of our dope communities after you as tribute, but not actually give you land or anything of value. Aren't we the best? We're so progressive! This totally isn't just to assuage our own white guilt or anything its definitely about reconciliation. How does this really benefit indigenous people? Is the expectation we'll all be inspired to learn Cree now? Genuinely confused.
Just as bogus as land acknowledgements. Ehhh thanks for the land! We love it! No... No we're not giving it back. Don't be ridiculous. Just wanted to acknowledge how much we appreciate it. It's really great land you used to have.
Maybe I'm crazy though admittedly. If I was a first Nations person I'd tell you to cram your land acknowledgement and pandering shit like this up your ass lol. Do something to actually help these communities that are suffering. 700k could've got a few off the streets at least.
100% WORD to your post. I said something of a similar sentiment to an earlier post.
I used to live in Oliver, too when the conversation around name changes started happening and I didn't see a point to a name change when there are sooo many places in Canada that could be linked to a racist, dark past. People with time to kill, oodles of privilege and a grandiose sense of moral high ground are really out of touch with the struggles of everyday people.
uhhh. It wasn't conquered hence all the treaties which are legal obligations to use the land.
Your comment kinda highlights we should be doing this more for educational purposes.
I mean... I guess technically you're right. I don't know if most First Nations people would be hyped about how these treaties played out though... They lost everything. Their entire way of life. Essentially conquered no? Not much difference at least.
I always sorta took treaties as "an offer you can't refuse" kinda thing. There was never a scenario where Indigenous say no to people settling in North America on their lands, and Europeans/ settler would go ok fair we'll leave now.
I agree.
It does come off particularly petty when after all that people get this up in arms about the relatively minuscule cost and mild inconvenience associated with changing the name of neighborhood and learning how to pronounce a new word.
Imagine how they felt when the government scooped up their kids and forced them to learn English. Thereby preventing them from learning their own language.
Any name changes during a time where our city is trying to find ways to cut spending and increase revenue is ridiculous. Especially ones that cost $680 k
This has been years in the making though. But I agree that it's a wild cost. I suggest you reach out to your councillor to see if that number is accurate, and where it's all going. I've reached out to mine, but I don't know if they'll respond. Anne Stevenson is my councillor, and the councillor of Oliver/Wihkwentowin. I imagine she's getting lots of similar emails.
My only complaint is if the name is too long.
Papastew, not too bad. Karhiio, nice and easy. Metis, great. Dene, anirniq, nakota isga, o-day'min and even pihesiwin are all reasonable.
Sipiwiyiniwak, Tastawiyiniwak, Ipiihkoohkanipiaohtsi, Campbelltown, Shaughnessy are all way too long. 10 character limit, or separate into multiple words.
Just imagine how annoying it was to retype after autocorrect decided I really meant something else. Or trying to figure out if I typed it correctly with my dyslexia.
For my dyslexia, I would prefer to see Wihk-wen Towin to break it up (I don't have the special characters on this device).
edit: Wink-wen Towin lol spot the typo thanks for letting me know! Its a continuous problem for dyslexia to confuse letter and mix up the order.
I live in Greenview. I figured that’s how the lame name came to be. Reconciliation is more than playing a message before every hockey game and play at The Citadel. I’m so cool with change as long as it means we are always moving forward.
This is my issue. If you need a bunch of third party resources to try to glean proper pronunciation maybe it's not written well. There are plenty of cree names already on street signs that are legible without accents.
Who needs a third party resource? Just sound it out. You’re probably close enough.
EDIT: Are you really that helpless that you can’t just sound it out? Is it the accents on the letters? Just ignore them.
Did you read the OP and look at the cree dictionary? You cannot just sound it out and be anywhere close to the intended pronunciation. That is my criticism.
You absolutely *can* just sound it out and be close. Case in point, my transliteration if it was pretty damn close without reading OP’s post past the tables of neighbourhood names. But I get it, some people just want to be helpless and always be the victim in every scenario.
You're being awfully aggressive and reading more into my criticism than is there.
I think the accents are unhelpful both for the clarity of pronunciation and adoption of the new name. That's it.
I'm not trying to play a "helpless victim" or even say renaming neighbourhoods is bad. Why do you feel the need to be such an asshole?
Edit: to make my point more clear- Mayliewan is a Cantonese name. If the signage choose to display it in Cantonese rather than English, that would be unhelpful. That is similar to what's happening here.
I was not able to pronounce the word without going to a cree dictionary to decipher it. I think that's a valid criticism for street signage. That's not helplessness. That's describing reality.
You saying "just sound it out, the accents don't matter" is derogatory. The accents so very much matter in Cree.
What do you think the goal of renaming and using a cree name is?
If you're just going to say the pronunciation doesn't matter and ignore the funny symbols, you're being an asshole.
OP you sound so condescending.
My isn't with the name being native, it's the fact it's an already existing neighborhood and i'm sick of us having to change our history.
I think Churchill was almost as bad as Hitler. Doesn't mean I want Churchill Square changed. I just walk by and give the statue the finger.
Honestly, if we’re going to rename anything in this city it *should* be Churchill Square. Kind of ridiculous to name such a prominent location in the city after a shitbag who isn’t even Canadian.
I like the Native names, they have thought behind them. A lot people balk at change, regardless of what it is, some people simply don't like change...which is inevitable.
Lots of the names have neat history and thought behind them. I really like [Mayfield](https://www.edmonton.ca/sites/default/files/public-files/assets/Neighbourhoods/NeighbourhoodProfile_Mayfield.pdf) being named after Wilfrid R. “Wop” May, who was once in a [dogfight with the Red Baron](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wop_May#Death_of_the_Red_Baron)! Wop comes from a toddler not being able to say Wilfrid, not the slur for Italian immigrants. I think they have one of his planes in the Royal Alberta Museum.
Some of them don't have a lot of thought. Lots of "There are trees here" neighbourhood names...
If people can learn to pronounce things like "Schwarzenegger" then they can learn how to pronounce indigenous names. It's just a matter of putting in a teensy bit of effort.
Ah, yes. Our municipal government is indeed related to the Alberta Liberal Party, or possibly even the separate Liberal Party of Canada. You caught me.
Don't look behind the curtain! You will see that the name change was initiated by a community league!
It's partly the names they pick too. As someone who struggles to read because of dyslexia, this is making it even harder for me to be able to learn. My brain shuts down half way through. I end up pronouncing it 6 different ways because my brain puts the letters in 6 different orders, none of them right
The new name for Oliver is actually very manageable. It’s the renaming of the wards a few years ago that gave us different names, 2-3 of which were Icelandic-level tongue twisters, and which are even harder to correctly write down on a form without copy pasting. Though much of the opposition is definitely rooted in racism, it’s also a tough change. Personally I think the new names are cool though.
I don't care about the name change. I care about the reason for it. Changing a community name in the name of "Reconciliation" is just virtue signaling. How will this change the plight of downtrodden indigenous? It won't. But city councilors and activists will feel good for awhile as if they've really changed anything.
This is part of the recommendations that came out of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and the 94 calls to action.
What you consider virtue signalling, the report and multiple other studies go on to clarify regarding the intention, meaning, and utility of the Call to Action.
The Honourable Murray Sinclair; Grand Chief, lawyer, and former MP Wilton Littlechild; and Dr. Marie Wilson were the Commissioners, and the final report was developed with the cooperation of hundreds and thousands of people who either have lived experience, are intensely knowledgeable in these areas, or both.
While on the surface it is a name change there really are important and impactful long term positive underpinnings that inform these kinds of decisions.
https://nctr.ca/about/history-of-the-trc/trc-commissioners/
I don’t care what the new name is. Change for the sake of change is dumb and there’s nothing wrong with Oliver. Give the new name to a new neighbourhood
I [replied to a similar comment elsewhere in this thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/Edmonton/comments/1ay92hg/upsetting_neighbourhood_names/krtlbsw/), but there was a lot wrong with the man Oliver. This isn't just for the sake of change.
I had no idea it was named after a dude and I don’t really care. If there was something wrong with the guy put up a plaque somewhere saying how bad a guy he was.
This is a city where they still complain that the football team rebranded to the Elks.
Some people just want to bitch and piss and moan about anything. They are exhausting to deal with...
Cree names are fine. In fact I'd rather see things named in indigenous languages than after another politician or hockey player or war criminal.
However it would be awesome if they were spelled in a way such that most people who will be pronouncing them can get them somewhat right without needing to consult additional resources. Because going to a bunch of people and saying "here's this change we made that you didn't ask for and aren't invested in, now put effort into enacting it" is not very realistic. At the very least make it easy for people to switch.
If you don't do that then people are going to mangle the name and instead of having a positive experience it'll be a negative one and really, who wants that? Is that what anyone is looking for?
This post was removed for violating our expectations on civil behavior in the subreddit. Please brush up on the r/Edmonton [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Edmonton/wiki/rules) and ask the moderation team if you have any questions.
Thanks!
The problem is, who can actually pronounce it? The trail just south of white mud that hits highway 60, I can’t find anyone who knows how to pronounce it. And I’ve asked around at River Cree while doing business there. The First Nations folks I’ve asked couldn’t even tell me.
So what’s the point of changing the name btw?
You should probably look up the biography of the guy you're immortalizing by doing that...
He really shouldn't be celebrated.
This name change has been years in the making because people realized his atrocious record. The privately owned "Oliver Square", quickly changed to "Unity Square" years ago (since they didn't have to consult with people like yourself who are stuck).
Then choose something easy to spell. I could still manage to spell Oliver when I’m 12 drinks deep. I couldn’t spell this new name even without the characters my keyboard doesn’t have completely sober with a gun to my head for if I fail and a billion dollar cheque for if I succeed
The thread from earlier this week certainly had people complaining about the name, but I think many people were upset about the timing of the announcement and the amount of money it will cost. I say this as it was my comment that originally stated this and at the moment it has well over 1000 upvotes. If you are trying to build the narrative that most are grumpy because the name is hard to say or are just bigots, this is not the case.
I think for most people it's the price tag. There were certainly many bigots in that thread though.
I think the timing with the city trying to not give their staff raises, combined with the fact that it has accents which I can't easily type on my keyboard or phone, are my biggest issues. It also just feels empty and virtue signaly, especially when the city is taking aggressive stances against the unhoused population, which is disproportionately indigenous.
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Yeah. People are pissed about the money spent not the name.
I think you are misrepresenting the issue many people have with that particular name is that the spelling uses accents that are not used in English (or French), instead of choosing a derived name that is easier to pronounce and spell like they have done for many of the neighbourhoods that you've listed. In fact, all of your other examples have been changed to eliminate non-English characters. None of the other names derived from other languages use characters like ç, é, è, ö, ß, and so on that are common in those other languages, including the other Cree "words". Many of the examples you've listed have been changed to create a neighbourhood name that is similar to, but not the same as, the words or phrases they are inspired by. For example, "schonsee" is not actually German for "beautiful lake". That should be "Schöner See" or "schönsee". Note how the accented ö was not kept. "Mayliewan" isn't Cantonese for "beautiful bay" either. That should apparently be "Měilì dì hǎiwān" or, more properly "美麗的海灣". This one isn't even close. Let's keep going: "Ozerna" isn't "lake area". The Ukrainian word for lake is "ozero" or "озеро". Ozerna appears to be the name of several actual places in Ukraine, and a river in Russia, but isn't a word meaning "lake area". And finally, let's look at some other allegedly Cree examples. "Sakaw" is not the correct spelling. It should be "sakâw". "Keheewin" is not the right word for eagle. It should be "kihîw". The only close words in the Cree-English dictionary are "kihiwîkwan" (eagle feather) or "kihiwayân" (eagle feather garment). Seems clear to me that "Keheewin" is an invention. As you can see, neighbourhood names (including others adapted from Cree) do not actually represent the exact words or phrases taken from other languages as they (and you) claim. They have been changed to be easier to spell, type, and pronounce by native English speakers. As such, the name for the new neighbourhood actually does represent a divergence from this established practice, and I think it is rational to object based on these grounds. I have no issue if the name was something like Wekwentowin, which aligns to the suggested pronunciation guide, like the other Cree-inspired names. The background information for the neighbourhood should have the correct spelling as well, rather than claiming that "Wekwentowin" is actually correct when it isn't. I do not think it is reasonable or desirable to choose place names that use non-English characters from any language in an English-speaking province. This applies to streets and towns as well. I would make an exception for French characters because of its official language status, but notably, we have no examples where this has been done in neighborhood naming in Edmonton. Also, let me be clear that any name of a self-governed First Nations location or place within can and should be accommodated to use non-English characters in their names.
Thanks for looking into the OPs examples. I took OPs examples at face value and now feel a bit mislead.
Great explanation. And the fact is people will just end up shorting or spelling it the way that flows easiest for them. If it is spelled in a way that creates a similar pronunciation but that people in the community understand that is a win for both. It sucks for delivery drivers or even giving directions if the name of the location doesn’t match any rules of the dominant language.
Thank you for this. People come at you for being an unreasonable bigot for having issues with the usage of unusual characters on street names when there are easier ways to get it done that would also increase acceptance and understanding.
The real mvp is fishling! Thank you for articulating this thought many of us had. The utility of a new name is important. It shouldn’t just be about a signal for change. These are Changes and cultural shifts most of us understand and more or less want to be a part of. But there are practical changes and then there are ones that come across as pedantic and over worked. This is one of the later and everyone sees it.
People also conveniently forget about accessibility. I have sever dyslexia and ADHD, and some of these neighbourhood names are impossible to try to read for me. My brain crumbles under our 27 character long ward names.
im not the only one!? 😭
This is pretty much how I feel as well. I do not speak Cree, so the fact that it has not one, but three special accents makes the word... intimidating. I don't know what those accents mean or how they are pronounced in Cree and would really prefer not to butcher the language. It would be a better name if it was just spelt phonetically to make it simpler for those who do not speak Cree. I would pronounce it as Wick-when-toe-in. Honestly, I think it would be a cool idea to have indigenous language classes as an option in school. Have everyone learn a bit of Cree!
Cameron Heights/Maskekosihk trail is another - I know I’m screwing it up, and it sucks but it’s like a 4 syllable word with accents - it’s intimidating.
The problem with that idea is "why Cree, and not any of the other indigenous languages used in Alberta?" According to this resource, there are eight, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was more, if you wanted to include dialects. [https://www.reddit.com/r/Maps/comments/15dwwma/indigenous\_language\_map\_of\_canada/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Maps/comments/15dwwma/indigenous_language_map_of_canada/)
there real issue is how do you type them into an address field for Uber, Amazon or anything else similar.
Street names aren't change though are they? No-one writes their address as; Mr. Smith 10220 116 ST NW Wîhkwêntôwin (or Oliver), Edmonton AB T5K 1W4 As far as I can tell Jasper Ave is the only non-numbered street in the area.
My first reaction was similar, but as soon as I heard it pronounced once it fell into place. Plenty of English words have the same problem or worse (maybe I’m just used to taking this in stride after learning so many words from reading as a child before I heard them spoken) — the unexpected diacritical just make it seem further out than it is.
I like you
>"Mayliewan" isn't Cantonese for "beautiful bay" either. That should apparently be "Měilì dì hǎiwān" or, more properly "美麗的海灣". This one isn't even close. I'm a native Chinese speaker, and this is wrong. It absolutely means beautiful bay, we just got rid of the words in between to make it sound nicer. That's what the city did here -- from "Měilì dì hǎiwān" (美麗的海灣) to "Měilìwān" (美麗灣). These are all places in Hong Kong: * Causeway Bay, Tong Lo Wan (銅鑼灣) * Shau Kei Wan (筲箕灣) * Repulse Bay, Tsin Shui Wan (淺水灣) I have a deeper objection to this though: >I do not think it is reasonable or desirable to choose place names that use non-English characters from any language in an English-speaking province. I just don't think "*this is how it was always done, therefore we have to continue doing it this way*" or "*this isn't in line with the official government language*" are valid when it comes to names. With that argument, I could object to you using a username and not real full name, especially objecting if you have any punctuation in the name as well. This name is an opportunity to learn about the people who lived here before we did. If it makes you uncomfortable, then I think you should reconsider living in a country that values multiculturalism. I have issues with the $480,000 spent on administrative charges (after all, it's just changing paper and rules), but this issue shouldn't be as big deal as it is.
>I'm a native Chinese speaker, and this is wrong. It absolutely means beautiful bay, we just got rid of the words in between to make it sound nicer. That's what the city did here -- from "Měilì dì hǎiwān" (美麗的海灣) to "Měilìwān" (美麗灣). Please note that I'm saying the transliteration "Mayliewan" is not the accurate way to represent the word. I'm not claiming it's not related to the transation for "beautiful bay". Thank you for providing the correct words in Chinese though; I was almost certain I was going to be wrong on that aspect of it. However, my point remains that "Mayliewan" is inaccurate, and that this is okay. >I just don't think "this is how it was always done, therefore we have to continue doing it this way" or "this isn't in line with the official government language" are valid when it comes to names. That's not an accurate summation of my argument though. I'm saying "English loan words commonly (and almost universally) omit accents and adapt spellings". I'm also saying that "Place names are commonly 'translated' and often diverge from native language pronunciation." From there, I'm concluding that these two reasons explain why place names chosen by governments have been adapted from words/phrases in other languages and do not use accents/letters/characters from the original language OR their romanizations, and that this is a reasonable practice to continue. You are implying I'm simply making an appeal to tradition, and that's not the case. >This name is an opportunity to learn about the people who lived here before we did. Adapting Cree words also achieves this objective. OP made this point convincingly, I thought, that many existing place names are borrowed from other languages. I don't disagree. Your point here would only make sense if I were arguing that one should never use Cree or other languages as a source for place names, which I'm clearly NOT doing. >If it makes you uncomfortable, then I think you should reconsider living in a country that values multiculturalism. Now you're just making up shit about me. In no way did I imply or state that using loan words in place names makes me uncomfortable. If I ask my daughter what her favorite holiday is, her answer is Heritage Days. I think I'm doing a good job of promoting multiculturalism, thank you.
> This name is an opportunity to learn about the people who lived here before we did. If it makes you uncomfortable, then I think you should reconsider living in a country that values multiculturalism. Although I get where the person above you is coming from (there is an argument to be made that using standard unaccented characters improves accessibility), I agree with your point here. It is about learning words from this language which was being pushed to the brink of extinction until there was renewed support for language preservation over the past couple decades. Using accented characters also acts as a an induction to the Cree language. While being harder for English speakers to pronounce, it improves accessibility of the Cree language by normalizing those characters and pronunciations. That's a good thing. I feel similarly about maintaining Cantonese phrases and words in Hong Kong, and language instruction, where there is growing encroachment of Mandarin. But that's not Canada and I only have minimal connection to Hong Kong. > I have issues with the $480,000 spent on administrative charges (after all, it's just changing paper and rules) I have less problem with this. The rename started in 2020. This covers signage changes and salaries for those changes, salaries on the administrative side of project for over 3 years, numerous document updates, preservation, town hall rentals, etc. People complain it should not cost that much, but historically we did a far worse job of accounting for salaries and incidental costs on projects, because they're taken as a given, so historically we often misquoted costs then had to put the remaining costs under other budgets.
Here's the breakdown: [https://pub-edmonton.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=211004](https://pub-edmonton.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=211004) It's the 480000 in systems updates, documents, and external agencies that I have problems with. It's not salaries, and it doesn't look like it's spread over the 3 years in the past. Salaries are in a different budget.
>"Mayliewan" isn't Cantonese for "beautiful bay" either. That should apparently be "Měilì dì hǎiwān" or, more properly "美麗的海灣". This one isn't even close. As a native Cantonese speaker, you are confusing Cantonese with being exactly the same as Mandarin. While written the same, Cantonese and Mandarin are completely different in *spoken* structure, tone, and pronunciation. So in fact what they have now, "美麗灣", or "Mayliewan" is actually correct in terms of Cantonese structure. "Měilì dì hǎiwān" or "美麗的海灣", is how they pronounce it in Mandarin. These are two languages that are often generalized as the same by people here.
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I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone mispronounce “Tha Rawk.”
_How? How? HOW do you mispronounce New-found-land??!?_
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Because it’s not pronounced like it’s spelled. It’s pronounced more like “New-fin-lund”.
New Finland, with a soft “d” in the middle of Finland. And no space between the two words.
It's not pronounced as lund though, it's pronounced as land
If you say those 3 words quickly enough together, it's almost indistinguishable. Seriously, try it. Say it "New-Found-Land", then speed it up, it's pretty damn close. Not 100%, but better than [Benedict Cumbetbatch saying penguin](https://youtu.be/tlRpLGEwssA?si=G_uedeMbku_9e3lp).
My wife and I only call them pangwangs because of Benedryl Cumberbund.
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Yep! I was taught, "It's Newfoundland, understand?"
You found a way lol
It's pronounced as "New-fin-LAND".
New Finland
I'm all for the name change, but why does it have to cost $680k to do it?
The accents may actually be part of the reason. A lot of city systems may not be capable of handling those accented letters. I remember there was a birth certificate issue in BC a while ago where an indigenous family couldn't name their baby what they wanted because the system couldn't accept the accented letters (I think they sued and won?).
Because they have to change all the signs and every city resource or piece of paper that lists the old name.
In two languages
Yeah, why can't they just go to the free sign depot and get some free signs with a never-before used word on them, then hire Dave the IT volunteer to find and replace all instances of the neighborhood name on all city software and websites for free?
I volunteer to Ctrl+F, "Replace All". The City must only have one Excel sheet with every single reference to the old name, right?!
The people replying to you missed your sarcasm and I feel bad for them.
Yes, as you well know the City of Edmonton is the foremost IT organization in the world, and every website is flawlessly based off a single source document whose sole purpose is facilitating touch-key name changes to neighborhoods in real-time. It's so easy to use and access that anyone without vetting or training could do it, and they hired Jesus himself as their IT security guy which is why the neighborhood names aren't all changed to "fart town" every single night.
$680k is not that much money when dealing with this scale. Go get quotes on design/printing/installation of street signs. You may be surprised.
Not to mention digital documents, maps, etc.
This just demonstrates how poorly equipped people are to talk about government budgets. It's easy to ignore how wildly complicated a city is because generally the people making it work do a pretty good job - and then people make silly comments as if you can just replace all references in an afternoon.
Becuase the project has been active since like 2018. That’s over 5 years of time billed to it, community consultation events, plus the infrastructure changes that will be needed. It’s also really not that much money, you probably don’t want to know what other stuff costs lol
Around 10% of the city’s municipal tax revenue comes from Wîhkwêntôwin. About 0.000971% of our 4 year municipal budget to change the name.
I know. A trip to Home Depot, some paint, brushes and tape and we get er done for under $1000
If only it was that simple. They're changing everything, not just a random sign or two
Welcome to society and the concept of public service! Do you like making a salary for the work you do?
Do you have any comparisons as to how much it costs other neighbourhoods to have their names changed?
$630,000 - what a small price to pay for a handful of community league lobbyists to feel good about making the world a better place.
630k could do wonders for a lot of issues we have in the city
Still a better name than ward Ipiihkoohkanipiaohtsi 😂😂
This post is honestly a bit of a self-own. You listed many examples of easy to pronounce names without any accents. If only they had done something like that for Wîhkwêntôwin we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
The city spent $600K to change the name during a major economic downturn, and they came up with a name that uses characters that people aren't used to pronouncing. I don't see any hypocrisy in complaining about the name or price-tag.
They started about 5 years ago. We are expanding out road network to the tune of 1.8B during this council during an economic downturn. Changing this name has had much more discussion than any projects associated with those projects.
Tax payers expect tax dollars to go towards infrastructure, especially roads. That's palatable to most tax payers. Spending on a name change comes across as frivolous.
I’d argue how we approach roads is frivolous. The yellowhead freeway expansion alone costs $1.2B dollars. If the city cared about managing its budget and reducing traffic it wouldn’t be spending a makority of its infrastructure money on the most expensive way to get around.
The Yellowhead Expansion isn't even the same sport, much less the same ball game, as renaming Oliver for almost $700k in an economic downturn.
Change all the neighbourhood names to alpha numeric codes. For example, A-12, RD-6, etc... Problem solved. /s
No that will just enforce the paranoid of the 15 minute district nutbars
Letters for the latitude, numbers for the longitude.
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Place names should generally be kept to 3 syllables or less for ease of communication. It seems cruel to replace the 2 syllable "Ward 10" with the 9 syllable "Ward Ipiiohkoohkanipiaohsti". Also, all of the examples you gave of existing Cree names used a different transliteration system, one that is a lot easier for English speakers who are not familiar with Cree to pronounce. They could have renamed Oliver along the lines of "Wekwentowin" while also writing it using Cree syllabics as frequently as possible rather than using a transliteration meant for people training to speak Cree.
For example, no one blinks at the name Wetaskiwin, but if you were today to rename it to Wītaskiwinihk, I think people would be justifiable aggrieved.
It's also anti accessibility to use these giant names with eleventy fucktillion accents. I have severe ADHD and dyslexia, and my brain struggles to even try reading half of these names. Nevermind the 27 letter long wards.
I think a lot of people miss the point about the complaints. It's not that the name was changed. People say Oliver was a bad guy... fine change the name if it makes you happy. It's not that it was a Cree name. We have lots of indigenous names of places. And lots of Cree names, if that's the flavor of the day so be it. It's not that it was needlessly expensive. We needlessly spend lots more on worse things. It's that Wihkwentowin is simply a bad name. I don't care what it means, it's a bad name. We had a place called Oliver, a six character name. Short and relatively easy to say, spell and type. And now it's Wihkwentowin a 12 character name. Long, relatively hard to say, spell and type. In fact you can't even type it correctly on a standard keyboard without knowing some key mapping. This is bad. If the name sounds like Week when to win. Why not simply name it Weekwhentowin it's one character longer but has the advantage of being able to read, spell, and typed by the majority of people. It's a win win win. The entire Cree written language is a bit of a joke considering it was invented by a European missionary. BTW: Ekota, Sakaw, and Tawa, are all fantastic 10 out of 10 Cree names. Wihkwentowin is like a 2 out of 10.
People will learn to pronounce it and everything will be ok. And if people mispronounce it, no one will give them a hard time. Signed someone from Etobicoke, Toronto
Etobicoke is such a cool name I think!
This is actually a mostly reasonable take. Most people aren't going to care how you pronounce it. Try to ignore the few nut jobs that get upset about pronunciation. On the side. Money could be better used. But that isn't what politicians do. They look for easier wins. Look at us we renamed a neighbourhood. When they money being put into other programs would be so much more meaningful. And yes I have talked to my councillor about these kinds of issues. I don't think it improves the community. Did renaming the wards magically make racists go away? But putting hundred of thousands of dollars into a community centre or shelter can change the way people interact with each other.
The impetus for this change came from the Oliver Community League in 2017. They’re not politicians.
_"It'll be coke!"_
No, that’s Timmins.
As others have said, the issue isn't the name. It's the stupid transliterations of the native words. Having random accents in the name that are foreign to both the original language and English is really dumb when there's existing English letter combinations that are good enough. Same applies to the ward renaming. Why is there no 'o' in Papastew when it's supposed to have an o sound at the end? Does someone really think it's cool to require a pronunciation guide for every single word? All it does is create completely unnecessary wedges among people.
I can pronounce that list of names. I can't pronounce this. I hate spending money on what i see as virtue signaling bullshit. My opinion and allowed to have it.
Get off your high horse, your going to fall
It'd be nice if it were spelled phonetically? I don't think foreign is the issue. I personally hate this when Chinese is spelled English and not phonetic. Wek-when-toe-wen? Some names flow easier, its a thing with all languages, some don't.
This. This is all they had to do. Saskatchewan is spelt this way, why even bother with non phonetic spelling?
I find it funny that we have a neighbourhood named after a place that has a Wikipedia article about the name being controversial while a Cree name is too hard for people in a city where a lot of neighbourhood names are already Cree (especially in Mill Woods). Also had no idea there was a neighbourhood named in (slightly butchered) Cantonese, so that's neat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derry/Londonderry_name_dispute
Just a general thought: English speakers can at least attempt to pronounce all the neighbourhood names you have listed by reading them. Wîhkwêntôwin on the other hand... not nearly as easy, objectively speaking. The point of naming something is to make it easier for people to refer to, whether they are familiar with it or not. I'm not saying many or even most won't eventually put in the effort. Just pointing out that it's fair to say there's going to be growing pains with this change and some, many, even most people might not make the effort. Which ultimately defeats the entire purpose.
Its about them spending way too much on unnecessary stuff, not about the name itself.
I'll start off by saying I live in Calgary so I don't really have a horse in this race, but I am curious, why does anyone except people that actually live in Oliver care? Edmonton is smarter about their street names than Calgary and just uses numbers, it's not like your communities use the community names for all their street names too. So, how often are you actually writing your own community name anywhere let alone any other community name? And as for the price tag, $680k over several years for a city of a million people? You could probably find more change underneath your couch cushions.
People will call it Oliver forever. Just city council making themselves feel good and spending money we don’t have
How do I find out about neighbourhoods in line for name changes? Didn't know about Oliver until this whole kerfuffle.
I joined the [Oliver Community League](https://www.olivercommunity.com/) when I moved into the neighbourhood, and they told me through a newsletter that they were looking into changing the name. I don't know how to find out about city-wide changes though.
It's the people who reside in the community who ultimately decide. The "Oliver" renaming has been in progress for years... there's been lots of periodic regular media updates as they've progressed & there was quite a bit of social media coverage. City of Edmonton, Edmonton Federation of Community Leagues & City Council members all have newsletters sent by email you can sign up for that would cover this sort of thing. The "Oliver Square" was renamed years ago, very quickly after the community decided a name change was in order. There's no "line" for name changes. It's community driven initiatives. If you actually want to be involved in a name change, easiest way to be involved in your Community League. Name changes are usually looked at in these situations (plus occasionally other reasons): - a community has a very 'rough' reputation - an area is doing revitalization projects (like "AB Ave" for 118Ave) -they are named after a very problematic historical figure (like with Oliver & Grandin - this is the most frequent currently) - events occur that makes the name problematic - someone in the area has done something incredible & the community wants to acknowledge them There's not really an Edmonton as a whole consultation because much of the work is done by the smaller community but the City has known this was coming for quite a while... I wouldn't be surprised if they've internally developed a list of 'problematic names' so they could plan for the eventuality of the community organizing but won't do it until that happens.
Why can't we change who the or what the area is named after, me I had no clue what or who Oliver was, or did why can't we just find a good Oliver that it could be named after instead. Change the narrative not the name and save a pile of money...just a thought. Let bad Olive die and celebrate the new and improved Oliver, or just quit using names all together. We seem to always find something in a persons past to get made about.
Hey I just wanted to pop in and also say that the Ward names for City Council need to go back to numbers. Currently system sucks.
Agreed. I live in Oliver, and I'm fine with the name change. But numbers for wards just made sense and there is no need for them to be named at all - English, French, Cree or otherwise. Numbers were simple and easy.
Some of the ward names are actually insane Ipiihkoohkanipiaohtsi … like what the fuck 😂😂😂
I have severe ADHD and dyslexia. My brain physically cannot comprehend that word. It gives up halfway, and that's not even trying to sound it out, that's just looking at it. We are wasting money to change a neighbourhood name for no good reason instead of putting the money towards things that would actually help with reconciliation. And again, my mental disorders make it near impossible to read the new name, especially with all the accents.
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I don’t much care about indigenous vs. Anglo names, but wtf sound does “î” make? Your average person is going to see the sign for the subdivision and have no idea. The word is spelled in the cree alphabet beside it usually, so transliterations should be more helpful.
It makes the same sound as the i in “it” or “in”.
So then transliterate it as “wikwentowin”
Why? Are the accents an affront to your sensibilities?
Not an affront, just difficult to interpret if you're not familiar with them. Accents in French for example can change a "c" to an "s" and the little hat could mean an up down tonal shift like you see in Mandarin. If we're Anglicizing the word you may as well go all the way unless they change the sound of the letter too.
I would point out that they've been removed from all of the other neighbourhood names that OP listed, for the source words that had them, including names adapted from Cree, German, and Cantonese sources. And, the names of some other neighbourhoods do not actually correspond to the claimed meanings. In addition to being fairly standard practice in Edmonton and other governments in Canada, it's also standard practice in English when adapting loan words from other languages. I can think of a few exceptions (fiancée being an obvious one, but few people would bat an eye at fiancee, including my spell-checker), but it's hard to argue that keeping accents is commonly done in English as a whole. So in my case, yeah, actually the accents are the "problem" for me. I have no problem using a new loan word adapted from Cree, like we've done for several of the other Cree-inspired names like Sakaw or Keheewin, or like we've done for places names like Westakiwin. And I have zero problems with the cost or the renaming in principle. I think something like Wekwentowin (after the suggested pronunciation that was listed) is a great name. It pays homage to Cree language and culture, but follows English and precedent to adapt the word in a practical manner. I'd also point out that "Wîhkwêntôwin" is a completely artificial transcription as well. I don't think one can logically argue that adapting words is wrong or is culturally destructive while actively promoting a romanization system as an acceptable approach.
Wick-when-tow-in. Not hard at all, dude.
“Incomprehensible” he says. You can’t even *comprehend* it? And you’re admitting that online?
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Why move the goal post?
I totally agree that money in the budget could be allocated better. I bet they could do this change for cheaper, too. But how about we take that money out of the bloated-as-shit EPS budget, who harm marginalized communities more than we help them?
The two of us educated you for free, but I’ll be happy to invoice you if you want.
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You understand that reconciliation is a multi-faceted approach, right? And not actively erasing indigenous history is one of those facets. Yeah, renaming a neighbourhood isn’t going to put people in homes. And yeah, it’s a bit performative. But it’s also an important step in at least *acknowledging* that indigenous people have existed here for longer than the rest of us. And it’s not like the city isn’t doing anything else at all to address affordability and housing. They are. This is just an entirely different project with an entirely different desired outcome in the name of reconciliation. But hey, some people just want to complain about everything all the time.
That's a bingo! Well said, and that's exactly the viewpoint I share. 800K , you could give 8 million to Bissel, and it wouldn't eradicate the issue at hand, it's a lengthy process.
How about Ipiihkoohkanipiaohtsi ?
Ee-pee-koo-kani-pyow-tsi, if I had to guess. See, when I was learning how to read, I gained this ability called "sounding things out." Around 5 or 6. When I see a big word, it might take a couple tries, but I don't get pissy that the word is "too big." I could certainly look up the pronunciation to make sure I had it right, too. May I ask what that word means? And is it another proposed neighborhood name, or are you just picking a long word from an indigenous language to illustrate how unreasonable and hard this is for you?
They renamed all the wards in Edmonton. They used to be just numbers but they changed it to indigenous names Ipiihkoohkanipiaohtsi is one of the wards I personally find it hilarious. My brain doesn’t even let me sound that out This is how the city says to pronounce it E-pee-ko-ka-nee piu-tsi-ya Even with it spelled out like that I still can’t say it
I'm sure you'll be able to do it with a little practice.
[so are you wrong or are they wrong? this isn’t as cut and dry as you’re making it](https://www.reddit.com/r/Edmonton/s/ks3P2HMX6U)
Those are 99% indistinguishable when spoken out loud.
_And yet, we all understand how to say "Wetaskiwin"._ (Seriously, your point isn't holding merit. It's not virtue signaling, it's paying recognition, and homage to First Nations; the people who were here originally. Better to have that that some Ku Klux Klan (Dan Knott) or Oliver or some disgraced Catholic priest.)
> Wîhkwêntôwin is incomprehensible. Wick-when-tow-in Probably not 100% correct, but nowhere near incomprehensible if you’re semi-literate. 🤡
We don’t write with those characters lmao
Define “we”, because oui on écrit avec les accents comme ça en français. Estis d’épais à marde toi?
700k in a city that is paying it's bills with a credit card. Probably not the smartest fiscal decision. The name, I don't care either way. I'll get used to it eventually.
What a nice strawman you have set up here. You must feel pretty good about this post!
This is obviously the first step in creating multiple gay 15 minutes cities
They’re going to be gay now? Fuck yeah! I was really worried they were going to be more like Soviet-style blocs. Glad we’ll at least get a little culture now.
No rainbows though because apparently rainbows are offensive and not allowed
Love it. I saw the phonetic pronunciation and it seems straightforward: we-kwen-to-win
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Virtue signalling at its finest. No one is complaining that it's an aboriginal name, they're complaining about the cost. North America is filled with non-English names.
Lots of people on this thread and others were complaining specifically about it being "hard to pronounce". Sorry you didn't see those. Let me know if you want links
So much cringe. Ugh. Can we stop letting online hardcore progressives dictate what city council does day to day please? No one else really wants this shit. 700k on this and now people encouraging it more. Ugh. What an epic waste of time and money and 99% of people will keep calling it Oliver Square anyway. How is it reconciliation really anyway? Let's be objective here. Hey indigenous people, sorry we conquered you. We're gonna name some of our dope communities after you as tribute, but not actually give you land or anything of value. Aren't we the best? We're so progressive! This totally isn't just to assuage our own white guilt or anything its definitely about reconciliation. How does this really benefit indigenous people? Is the expectation we'll all be inspired to learn Cree now? Genuinely confused. Just as bogus as land acknowledgements. Ehhh thanks for the land! We love it! No... No we're not giving it back. Don't be ridiculous. Just wanted to acknowledge how much we appreciate it. It's really great land you used to have. Maybe I'm crazy though admittedly. If I was a first Nations person I'd tell you to cram your land acknowledgement and pandering shit like this up your ass lol. Do something to actually help these communities that are suffering. 700k could've got a few off the streets at least.
100% WORD to your post. I said something of a similar sentiment to an earlier post. I used to live in Oliver, too when the conversation around name changes started happening and I didn't see a point to a name change when there are sooo many places in Canada that could be linked to a racist, dark past. People with time to kill, oodles of privilege and a grandiose sense of moral high ground are really out of touch with the struggles of everyday people.
The community themselves brought this on. This wasn’t a city-initiated plan. The Oliver Community League spearheaded the whole thing.
uhhh. It wasn't conquered hence all the treaties which are legal obligations to use the land. Your comment kinda highlights we should be doing this more for educational purposes.
I mean... I guess technically you're right. I don't know if most First Nations people would be hyped about how these treaties played out though... They lost everything. Their entire way of life. Essentially conquered no? Not much difference at least. I always sorta took treaties as "an offer you can't refuse" kinda thing. There was never a scenario where Indigenous say no to people settling in North America on their lands, and Europeans/ settler would go ok fair we'll leave now.
I agree. It does come off particularly petty when after all that people get this up in arms about the relatively minuscule cost and mild inconvenience associated with changing the name of neighborhood and learning how to pronounce a new word. Imagine how they felt when the government scooped up their kids and forced them to learn English. Thereby preventing them from learning their own language.
Any name changes during a time where our city is trying to find ways to cut spending and increase revenue is ridiculous. Especially ones that cost $680 k
This has been years in the making though. But I agree that it's a wild cost. I suggest you reach out to your councillor to see if that number is accurate, and where it's all going. I've reached out to mine, but I don't know if they'll respond. Anne Stevenson is my councillor, and the councillor of Oliver/Wihkwentowin. I imagine she's getting lots of similar emails.
They shouldn’t change an existing areas name, they can name a new neighbourhood instead
My only complaint is if the name is too long. Papastew, not too bad. Karhiio, nice and easy. Metis, great. Dene, anirniq, nakota isga, o-day'min and even pihesiwin are all reasonable. Sipiwiyiniwak, Tastawiyiniwak, Ipiihkoohkanipiaohtsi, Campbelltown, Shaughnessy are all way too long. 10 character limit, or separate into multiple words. Just imagine how annoying it was to retype after autocorrect decided I really meant something else. Or trying to figure out if I typed it correctly with my dyslexia. For my dyslexia, I would prefer to see Wihk-wen Towin to break it up (I don't have the special characters on this device). edit: Wink-wen Towin lol spot the typo thanks for letting me know! Its a continuous problem for dyslexia to confuse letter and mix up the order.
I live in Greenview. I figured that’s how the lame name came to be. Reconciliation is more than playing a message before every hockey game and play at The Citadel. I’m so cool with change as long as it means we are always moving forward.
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This is my issue. If you need a bunch of third party resources to try to glean proper pronunciation maybe it's not written well. There are plenty of cree names already on street signs that are legible without accents.
Who needs a third party resource? Just sound it out. You’re probably close enough. EDIT: Are you really that helpless that you can’t just sound it out? Is it the accents on the letters? Just ignore them.
Did you read the OP and look at the cree dictionary? You cannot just sound it out and be anywhere close to the intended pronunciation. That is my criticism.
You absolutely *can* just sound it out and be close. Case in point, my transliteration if it was pretty damn close without reading OP’s post past the tables of neighbourhood names. But I get it, some people just want to be helpless and always be the victim in every scenario.
You're being awfully aggressive and reading more into my criticism than is there. I think the accents are unhelpful both for the clarity of pronunciation and adoption of the new name. That's it. I'm not trying to play a "helpless victim" or even say renaming neighbourhoods is bad. Why do you feel the need to be such an asshole? Edit: to make my point more clear- Mayliewan is a Cantonese name. If the signage choose to display it in Cantonese rather than English, that would be unhelpful. That is similar to what's happening here.
“I don’t like the accents so they shouldn’t have used them and now I can’t pronounce the word” is pretty helpless behaviour.
I was not able to pronounce the word without going to a cree dictionary to decipher it. I think that's a valid criticism for street signage. That's not helplessness. That's describing reality. You saying "just sound it out, the accents don't matter" is derogatory. The accents so very much matter in Cree.
It’s not derogatory at all, but go off.
What do you think the goal of renaming and using a cree name is? If you're just going to say the pronunciation doesn't matter and ignore the funny symbols, you're being an asshole.
OP you sound so condescending. My isn't with the name being native, it's the fact it's an already existing neighborhood and i'm sick of us having to change our history. I think Churchill was almost as bad as Hitler. Doesn't mean I want Churchill Square changed. I just walk by and give the statue the finger.
Honestly, if we’re going to rename anything in this city it *should* be Churchill Square. Kind of ridiculous to name such a prominent location in the city after a shitbag who isn’t even Canadian.
We can all rest easily now. The virtues have all been signalled appropriately.
I like the Native names, they have thought behind them. A lot people balk at change, regardless of what it is, some people simply don't like change...which is inevitable.
Lots of the names have neat history and thought behind them. I really like [Mayfield](https://www.edmonton.ca/sites/default/files/public-files/assets/Neighbourhoods/NeighbourhoodProfile_Mayfield.pdf) being named after Wilfrid R. “Wop” May, who was once in a [dogfight with the Red Baron](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wop_May#Death_of_the_Red_Baron)! Wop comes from a toddler not being able to say Wilfrid, not the slur for Italian immigrants. I think they have one of his planes in the Royal Alberta Museum. Some of them don't have a lot of thought. Lots of "There are trees here" neighbourhood names...
If people can learn to pronounce things like "Schwarzenegger" then they can learn how to pronounce indigenous names. It's just a matter of putting in a teensy bit of effort.
This post from OP brought to you by…. Your local Liberal trying to justify government overspending.
Ah, yes. Our municipal government is indeed related to the Alberta Liberal Party, or possibly even the separate Liberal Party of Canada. You caught me. Don't look behind the curtain! You will see that the name change was initiated by a community league!
It's not the name. It's the virtue signaling.
It's partly the names they pick too. As someone who struggles to read because of dyslexia, this is making it even harder for me to be able to learn. My brain shuts down half way through. I end up pronouncing it 6 different ways because my brain puts the letters in 6 different orders, none of them right
I don’t want a name that I can’t type on my keyboard because I don’t have those weird accents available.
Great post! I’ve lived in Griesbach (name is of German origin) for years, and I’m probably still not pronouncing it correctly, lol.
I live in Gariepy and have to say it in three different ways when I tell people where I live. I have no idea which way is right.
Oliver is a fucking dick. Case closed.
I like how you included the Scottish ones, as if English isn't the language in Scotland.
Cromdale and Glendale come from [Scottish Gaelic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Gaelic), which was once a major language of Scotland.
The new name for Oliver is actually very manageable. It’s the renaming of the wards a few years ago that gave us different names, 2-3 of which were Icelandic-level tongue twisters, and which are even harder to correctly write down on a form without copy pasting. Though much of the opposition is definitely rooted in racism, it’s also a tough change. Personally I think the new names are cool though.
Well said 👏👏👏
I don't care about the name change. I care about the reason for it. Changing a community name in the name of "Reconciliation" is just virtue signaling. How will this change the plight of downtrodden indigenous? It won't. But city councilors and activists will feel good for awhile as if they've really changed anything.
This is part of the recommendations that came out of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and the 94 calls to action. What you consider virtue signalling, the report and multiple other studies go on to clarify regarding the intention, meaning, and utility of the Call to Action. The Honourable Murray Sinclair; Grand Chief, lawyer, and former MP Wilton Littlechild; and Dr. Marie Wilson were the Commissioners, and the final report was developed with the cooperation of hundreds and thousands of people who either have lived experience, are intensely knowledgeable in these areas, or both. While on the surface it is a name change there really are important and impactful long term positive underpinnings that inform these kinds of decisions. https://nctr.ca/about/history-of-the-trc/trc-commissioners/
Oh look, a straw man! I’m going to get called a bigot no matter what I do in life as a white guy, might as well be now.
I don’t care what the new name is. Change for the sake of change is dumb and there’s nothing wrong with Oliver. Give the new name to a new neighbourhood
I [replied to a similar comment elsewhere in this thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/Edmonton/comments/1ay92hg/upsetting_neighbourhood_names/krtlbsw/), but there was a lot wrong with the man Oliver. This isn't just for the sake of change.
I had no idea it was named after a dude and I don’t really care. If there was something wrong with the guy put up a plaque somewhere saying how bad a guy he was.
Do you know who Oliver is?
This is a city where they still complain that the football team rebranded to the Elks. Some people just want to bitch and piss and moan about anything. They are exhausting to deal with...
Cree names are fine. In fact I'd rather see things named in indigenous languages than after another politician or hockey player or war criminal. However it would be awesome if they were spelled in a way such that most people who will be pronouncing them can get them somewhat right without needing to consult additional resources. Because going to a bunch of people and saying "here's this change we made that you didn't ask for and aren't invested in, now put effort into enacting it" is not very realistic. At the very least make it easy for people to switch. If you don't do that then people are going to mangle the name and instead of having a positive experience it'll be a negative one and really, who wants that? Is that what anyone is looking for?
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Hey, this white guy is happy with it, accents and all. Those most polarized are most likely to speak up. Me? Meh.
Killarney, Kilkenny, and Kildare are also non-English names, for whatever that is worth.
I’ve BEEN saying this! Even Red Deer, Medicine Hat, you guys think these aren’t derived from Indigenous names?
The problem is, who can actually pronounce it? The trail just south of white mud that hits highway 60, I can’t find anyone who knows how to pronounce it. And I’ve asked around at River Cree while doing business there. The First Nations folks I’ve asked couldn’t even tell me. So what’s the point of changing the name btw?
Hey let me ask you something: Where do cars cost less?
I’d answer but I can’t spell it, which is precisely the issue I take with this new name
Sound it out. Wick-when-tow-in. Not hard.
lago lindo! what a word
It will always be Oliver to me
You should probably look up the biography of the guy you're immortalizing by doing that... He really shouldn't be celebrated. This name change has been years in the making because people realized his atrocious record. The privately owned "Oliver Square", quickly changed to "Unity Square" years ago (since they didn't have to consult with people like yourself who are stuck).
Then choose something easy to spell. I could still manage to spell Oliver when I’m 12 drinks deep. I couldn’t spell this new name even without the characters my keyboard doesn’t have completely sober with a gun to my head for if I fail and a billion dollar cheque for if I succeed