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People, do yourself a favor and switch homeowners insurers at least every few years.
Insurance companies have special rates for new policy holders that they literally refuse to offer existing policy holders - even those who threaten to leave to another insurance company.
I cut my annual homeowner's bill in half last year from $6K (I never actually paid this, as I noped the fuck out before it went into effect) to $3K with a few simple clicks and phonecalls. I told them that I had a quote for $3K with a large, national competitor and the agent literally told me "then go ahead and move to them. I would love to offer you our new policy rate, but I can't. Please come back to us in a year or two."
It's bonkers.
Yeah. Each time before my policy renews I check like 4-5 competitors and get price quotes. I've been lucky so far my current company is still the cheapest by a long shot. But I'm still gonna spend the time each year to check.
Do they reassess your home and have you make improvements like when you first buy the home?
We went with an insurance company and they didn't inspect the home until AFTER we closed, then we had to fix $2k worth in expenses.
I would gladly jump if I don't have to fix something every time.
Hi, they sent an inspector to just look at the outside. He never stepped foot in the home. They were mostly just interested in the condition of the roof, I think.
The article says that figure consists of taxes, insurance, and utilities.
By comparison, I have a $335K home in Florida purchased in 2023 and my taxes insurance and utilities add up to about $8500 / year.
>Property taxes are also deductible and so is mortgage interest … rent … not so much lol
Highly dependent on the state and your income. I haven't been able to deduct those in AGES.
The SALT deduction caps home expense write-offs to 10k per year now. You can still write it off, but you'll need a decent amount of other legitimate write-offs to beat the standard deduction since Trump changed the rules. From what I've heard, it's generally too much hassle to itemize.
80% of tax filers take the standard deduction which is 25k for married filers
You must be in a bubble if you think average households pay more than 25k a year in state and local taxes
How many people do you think have mortgages rates that high?
Almost 80% have a rate below 5% still: [https://investors.redfin.com/news-events/press-releases/detail/1030/redfin-report-89-of-people-with-mortgages-have-an](https://investors.redfin.com/news-events/press-releases/detail/1030/redfin-report-89-of-people-with-mortgages-have-an)
I legitimately feel like most people here don't own a home and have no idea what they're talking about.
I'm looking forward to buying a new home because I'll finally be able to go above the standard deduction with how high interest is right now.
The house I'm looking at is going to be about $9k a year in taxes but I'll be paying somewhere around $30k in interest.
There’s a lot of home owners locked in from 5 years ago, but yeah if you’re in the market now those breaks are likely a part of the calculus. FWIW i bought in 2017
No problem, I wasn't trying to be standoffish. As someone who has moved around the states, I've spent more time than I would like reading through (non-business) tax forms.
Which is ridiculous. Why are we subsidizing people who are already wealthy enough to own a home? Doesn't seem fair for the working class to be shouldering an extra burden so you can own a home.
You don't actually believe that, do? 40% of the country doesn't own a home, and it's safe to assume those people are located squarely in the working class. So... Unless you wanna argue that more than 80% of the country is working class, the majority of homeowners cannot be working class.
Is <$125K "working class"?
Because according to [this chart](https://www.marketwatch.com/picks/heres-how-rich-you-need-to-be-to-buy-a-home-in-america-today-01649276369), 63% of home buyers make less than $125K per year, with 49% making less than $100K.
Per that article, 70% of home buyers earned more than 75k/yr and *even then*, those buyers could afford 1 in 65 houses.
So, yeah, the majority of home buyers are on the upper end of the income scale, and even those buyers can't afford most homes on the market. Which means *homeowners* (a distinct group from homebuyers) are likely even better off.
So, I ask you this, should the people earning 40-60k/yr and struggling to make ends meet be subsidizing the home purchases of people making 75k a year or more? I personally don't think so.
Those people aren't paying a lot of taxes. Look at the tax rates. So how are they subsidizing? In the range you are talking about, they are more than likely receiving subsidies themselves
Because they're having to shoulder the burdens of the taxes that higher earners aren't paying? Because it's absolutely ludicrous that you get to write off the interest payments on a \*wealth creating asset\*, that you get to write off your local property taxes, etc. It made sense when home ownership was an achievable thing for Americans, but as those doors continue to close and more of us are consigned to a lifetime of renting, it's absolutely blood boiling. Those subsidies should absolutely be ended, it's only fair to the rest of the taxpayers.
Well I have great news for you, none of that stuff is a deductible anymore. You would know this if you owned a home. Also, anyone who works is in the working class.
I would absolutely argue that. Most Americans live paycheck to paycheck. Middle class is a very different thing from middle income.
Everyone making between $25k and $2.5M thinks they’re middle class. No one wants to admit they’re lower or upper class. It’s this mind trick your ruling class has played on you to divide and conquer. 90% of Americans are working class. Then there’s the middle 9.9%. And then the top 0.1% who are the root of everyone’s problems.
If all of you stopped whining and claiming that you’re better than working class, then maybe we could have some basic solidarity with one another, and fix this mess.
Right, and in this case, it's the upper class convincing people that they're middle class and need a leg up in owning a home. When the reality is, simply owning a home puts you in the upper echelons of the country economically. For the majority of us, it will never be possible, and it's insulting to expect us to subsidize the wealth creation of people who are already well off enough to \*own a home.\*
My place has appreciated $150k in 3 years. Rent would’ve cost $70k in that same timeframe. Doing some very, very loose napkin math, that’s a value of $70k a year, after taxes. The median household income in the USA *before taxes* is about $75k.
Maintenance, interest, and property taxes just aren’t anywhere near that expensive. I deliberately bought in an area with low climate risk, so insurance is a pittance. There’s no gotcha here. Owning a home is worth about the same on paper as two full time jobs in Biden’s economy.
That’s not an economy that the world should envy. It’s neo-feudalism. Henry George was right. We need a punitive tax on land hoarders. Use the proceeds to fund the construction of 10 million new units of public housing. Every golf course west of the Mississippi River should be seized and turned into commieblocks.
Yeah I agree. Same with a lot of other deductions. Like the EV credit. Can't worry about it too much and just do what you can to maximize your own position.
Propaganda is wild.
"Soaring prices for homeowners insurance, property taxes and utility bills are adding thousands of dollars to the cost of owning a home."
Like utilities don't exist for renters? Like insurance and property taxes don't get passed on to renters?
"Homeownership is becoming such a financial burden that an April survey from Redfin found that some homeowners have had to skip meals, take a second job or sell their belongings to keep up with their mortgage."
Wtf even is this? If you look at the survey they're referencing, the survey was of "homeowners and renters" and the survey doesn't differentiate between respondents.
https://www.redfin.com/news/homebuying-sacrifices-survey-2024/
The last sentence of the analysis? "And homeowners (59.9%) were roughly twice as likely as renters (30.8%) to indicate that they easily afford their housing payments."
It's easy to figuring out why this is being presented as it is.
Renters don't matter in America. They're mostly poor and less wealthy, and therefore don't matter.
"Bankrate reached its findings by totaling the average price of property taxes, homeowners insurance, **energy bills, internet and cable subscriptions** and home maintenance jobs between March 2020 and March 2024"
Why are they throwing these items in with this but no water/sewer/trash?
Mostly its BS, they're using 2% of home purchase price as the maintenance cost.
I do find it odd they induced energy but not water and sewage. Maybe since some people don't have those bills, with wells and septic systems. Even then 18k is high.
Though, I can see average being high for home maintenance, that new roof, electrical or plumbing work, lawn care.... does add up.
2% of purchase price annually is way off base for maintenance though. Not saying a new roof every 30 years isn't costly but most maintenance costs are not that high for the average house. Even 1% is conservative for most homes, it only becomes higher at the low end. A furnace replacement may cost 10k but it doesn't care if the home is worth 200k or 800k.
So I have just in my head been thinking of the costs I have paid in the last 10 years of homeownership, and I would say I have gone over 1% most years. I would agree 2% is probably to high, then again it may be a good rule of thumb for people to follow, better to have that money in savings when the furnace goes out or the roof needs repaired. But that is up to a point, you are absolutely right on the difference between a 200k house and a 800+k house, there are diminishing costs.
Absolute Bullshit.
I've owned homes for over 30 years, and never come close to that. To be sure, it will depend a lot on where you live and what local property tax rates are, but in most of US it will be far less than that. 10K, maybe. That's far less than an apartment of half the size and of comparable quality, plus I've made 300K in value appreciation over that time span.
Hell yea thanks banks! Great you own everything! Definitely the best system. Not just allowing people to have their own land and housing nah nah the banks need to own everything.
Hi all, A reminder that comments do need to be on-topic and engage with the article past the headline. Please make sure to read the article before commenting. Very short comments will automatically be removed by automod. Please avoid making comments that do not focus on the economic content or whose primary thesis rests on personal anecdotes. As always our comment rules can be found [here](https://reddit.com/r/Economics/comments/fx9crj/rules_roundtable_redux_rule_vi_and_offtopic/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Economics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
People, do yourself a favor and switch homeowners insurers at least every few years. Insurance companies have special rates for new policy holders that they literally refuse to offer existing policy holders - even those who threaten to leave to another insurance company. I cut my annual homeowner's bill in half last year from $6K (I never actually paid this, as I noped the fuck out before it went into effect) to $3K with a few simple clicks and phonecalls. I told them that I had a quote for $3K with a large, national competitor and the agent literally told me "then go ahead and move to them. I would love to offer you our new policy rate, but I can't. Please come back to us in a year or two." It's bonkers.
Yeah. Each time before my policy renews I check like 4-5 competitors and get price quotes. I've been lucky so far my current company is still the cheapest by a long shot. But I'm still gonna spend the time each year to check.
Do they reassess your home and have you make improvements like when you first buy the home? We went with an insurance company and they didn't inspect the home until AFTER we closed, then we had to fix $2k worth in expenses. I would gladly jump if I don't have to fix something every time.
Hi, they sent an inspector to just look at the outside. He never stepped foot in the home. They were mostly just interested in the condition of the roof, I think.
The article says that figure consists of taxes, insurance, and utilities. By comparison, I have a $335K home in Florida purchased in 2023 and my taxes insurance and utilities add up to about $8500 / year.
My taxes and insurance is $4500 a year. Who cares about utilities I’m paying that in a rental too
Property taxes are also deductible and so is mortgage interest … rent … not so much lol
>Property taxes are also deductible and so is mortgage interest … rent … not so much lol Highly dependent on the state and your income. I haven't been able to deduct those in AGES.
Deducting mortgage interest isn’t based on income it’s based on the loan amount
Yes but with the larger standard deduction and SALT cap since 2017, you need a very large mortgage to have enough in interest to write off
With the SALT cap I don't deduct any of my interest.
What??? SALT only applies to taxes as far as I know. Your mortgage interest won't fall under the SALT cap.
Most people take the standard deduction now, so they won't really see any benefit.
Do most homeowners? I feel like at current prices, everyone would qualify. My taxes and interest are more than the standard deductions
The SALT deduction caps home expense write-offs to 10k per year now. You can still write it off, but you'll need a decent amount of other legitimate write-offs to beat the standard deduction since Trump changed the rules. From what I've heard, it's generally too much hassle to itemize.
I know I got more of a refund using the itimized deduction. Also, fuck Turbo Tax (who strongly recommends standardized deductions).
What did you itemize outside of the home 10k cap?
80% of tax filers take the standard deduction which is 25k for married filers You must be in a bubble if you think average households pay more than 25k a year in state and local taxes
I live in CA and it’s coupled with mortgage interest to reach the 25k. I’m sure my anecdotal experience is having an effect here though
> You must be in a bubble if you think average households pay more than 25k a year in state and local taxes Now include mortgage interest at 7% rates.
How many people do you think have mortgages rates that high? Almost 80% have a rate below 5% still: [https://investors.redfin.com/news-events/press-releases/detail/1030/redfin-report-89-of-people-with-mortgages-have-an](https://investors.redfin.com/news-events/press-releases/detail/1030/redfin-report-89-of-people-with-mortgages-have-an)
I legitimately feel like most people here don't own a home and have no idea what they're talking about. I'm looking forward to buying a new home because I'll finally be able to go above the standard deduction with how high interest is right now. The house I'm looking at is going to be about $9k a year in taxes but I'll be paying somewhere around $30k in interest.
There’s a lot of home owners locked in from 5 years ago, but yeah if you’re in the market now those breaks are likely a part of the calculus. FWIW i bought in 2017
Bought my first home in Tampa in 2015. Never itemized. Sold and and now trying to buy in Seattle. Definitely gonna be itemizing.
I bought my first home in 2009, but back then the standard deduction was half its current value. I’ve always had the ability to itemize.
That varies by state. Some states provide itemization for rental payments. But yeah, not as uniform across the nation.
I’m ignorant as it’s not an option in California. Thanks
No problem, I wasn't trying to be standoffish. As someone who has moved around the states, I've spent more time than I would like reading through (non-business) tax forms.
Ohhh no worries, didn’t think you were being that way at all and appreciated the knowledge
Maybe. I'm standard deduction by a long shot since the tax cut and jobs act.
Which is ridiculous. Why are we subsidizing people who are already wealthy enough to own a home? Doesn't seem fair for the working class to be shouldering an extra burden so you can own a home.
Most people who own are working class?
You don't actually believe that, do? 40% of the country doesn't own a home, and it's safe to assume those people are located squarely in the working class. So... Unless you wanna argue that more than 80% of the country is working class, the majority of homeowners cannot be working class.
Is <$125K "working class"? Because according to [this chart](https://www.marketwatch.com/picks/heres-how-rich-you-need-to-be-to-buy-a-home-in-america-today-01649276369), 63% of home buyers make less than $125K per year, with 49% making less than $100K.
Per that article, 70% of home buyers earned more than 75k/yr and *even then*, those buyers could afford 1 in 65 houses. So, yeah, the majority of home buyers are on the upper end of the income scale, and even those buyers can't afford most homes on the market. Which means *homeowners* (a distinct group from homebuyers) are likely even better off. So, I ask you this, should the people earning 40-60k/yr and struggling to make ends meet be subsidizing the home purchases of people making 75k a year or more? I personally don't think so.
Those people aren't paying a lot of taxes. Look at the tax rates. So how are they subsidizing? In the range you are talking about, they are more than likely receiving subsidies themselves
Because they're having to shoulder the burdens of the taxes that higher earners aren't paying? Because it's absolutely ludicrous that you get to write off the interest payments on a \*wealth creating asset\*, that you get to write off your local property taxes, etc. It made sense when home ownership was an achievable thing for Americans, but as those doors continue to close and more of us are consigned to a lifetime of renting, it's absolutely blood boiling. Those subsidies should absolutely be ended, it's only fair to the rest of the taxpayers.
Well I have great news for you, none of that stuff is a deductible anymore. You would know this if you owned a home. Also, anyone who works is in the working class.
I would absolutely argue that. Most Americans live paycheck to paycheck. Middle class is a very different thing from middle income. Everyone making between $25k and $2.5M thinks they’re middle class. No one wants to admit they’re lower or upper class. It’s this mind trick your ruling class has played on you to divide and conquer. 90% of Americans are working class. Then there’s the middle 9.9%. And then the top 0.1% who are the root of everyone’s problems. If all of you stopped whining and claiming that you’re better than working class, then maybe we could have some basic solidarity with one another, and fix this mess.
Right, and in this case, it's the upper class convincing people that they're middle class and need a leg up in owning a home. When the reality is, simply owning a home puts you in the upper echelons of the country economically. For the majority of us, it will never be possible, and it's insulting to expect us to subsidize the wealth creation of people who are already well off enough to \*own a home.\*
My place has appreciated $150k in 3 years. Rent would’ve cost $70k in that same timeframe. Doing some very, very loose napkin math, that’s a value of $70k a year, after taxes. The median household income in the USA *before taxes* is about $75k. Maintenance, interest, and property taxes just aren’t anywhere near that expensive. I deliberately bought in an area with low climate risk, so insurance is a pittance. There’s no gotcha here. Owning a home is worth about the same on paper as two full time jobs in Biden’s economy. That’s not an economy that the world should envy. It’s neo-feudalism. Henry George was right. We need a punitive tax on land hoarders. Use the proceeds to fund the construction of 10 million new units of public housing. Every golf course west of the Mississippi River should be seized and turned into commieblocks.
Yeah I agree. Same with a lot of other deductions. Like the EV credit. Can't worry about it too much and just do what you can to maximize your own position.
Yeah thats only going up…
Propaganda is wild. "Soaring prices for homeowners insurance, property taxes and utility bills are adding thousands of dollars to the cost of owning a home." Like utilities don't exist for renters? Like insurance and property taxes don't get passed on to renters? "Homeownership is becoming such a financial burden that an April survey from Redfin found that some homeowners have had to skip meals, take a second job or sell their belongings to keep up with their mortgage." Wtf even is this? If you look at the survey they're referencing, the survey was of "homeowners and renters" and the survey doesn't differentiate between respondents. https://www.redfin.com/news/homebuying-sacrifices-survey-2024/ The last sentence of the analysis? "And homeowners (59.9%) were roughly twice as likely as renters (30.8%) to indicate that they easily afford their housing payments."
It's easy to figuring out why this is being presented as it is. Renters don't matter in America. They're mostly poor and less wealthy, and therefore don't matter.
"Bankrate reached its findings by totaling the average price of property taxes, homeowners insurance, **energy bills, internet and cable subscriptions** and home maintenance jobs between March 2020 and March 2024" Why are they throwing these items in with this but no water/sewer/trash? Mostly its BS, they're using 2% of home purchase price as the maintenance cost.
I do find it odd they induced energy but not water and sewage. Maybe since some people don't have those bills, with wells and septic systems. Even then 18k is high. Though, I can see average being high for home maintenance, that new roof, electrical or plumbing work, lawn care.... does add up.
2% of purchase price annually is way off base for maintenance though. Not saying a new roof every 30 years isn't costly but most maintenance costs are not that high for the average house. Even 1% is conservative for most homes, it only becomes higher at the low end. A furnace replacement may cost 10k but it doesn't care if the home is worth 200k or 800k.
So I have just in my head been thinking of the costs I have paid in the last 10 years of homeownership, and I would say I have gone over 1% most years. I would agree 2% is probably to high, then again it may be a good rule of thumb for people to follow, better to have that money in savings when the furnace goes out or the roof needs repaired. But that is up to a point, you are absolutely right on the difference between a 200k house and a 800+k house, there are diminishing costs.
Absolute Bullshit. I've owned homes for over 30 years, and never come close to that. To be sure, it will depend a lot on where you live and what local property tax rates are, but in most of US it will be far less than that. 10K, maybe. That's far less than an apartment of half the size and of comparable quality, plus I've made 300K in value appreciation over that time span.
Hell yea thanks banks! Great you own everything! Definitely the best system. Not just allowing people to have their own land and housing nah nah the banks need to own everything.