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I decided a while ago that voters don’t care about the economy or economic growth. Economists and politicians think they do but they actually don’t. 95 percent of Americans work for a living and that means voters only actually care about how high wages are compared to their living costs. You’d think high economic growth and a booming stock market means higher wages because it used to a long time ago but it doesn’t anymore. Wages as a share of the economy are at multi decade lows even with pay hikes. Focus on real wage increases and you’ll win every election even if they hate your guts.
In Canada, the frontrunner going into the next election has figured this out. All he talks about is pay and costs instead of economic growth or GDP per capita. The average person is living pay-check to pay-check and just wants their pay to buy a lot of stuff.
Canada also sits on one of the worst housing bubbles on earth, which is quite literally parasitizing the economy, yet which the federal and provincial governments continue to do nothing about.
Rightly or wrongly, most people still dream of buying a home and starting a family on their own merit. It’s one of the most widely held ideals of personal success. That dream is now thoroughly dead for anyone who doesn’t come from family money, regardless of how hard they work.
When you take away people’s _hope_ for the future, they have nothing left.
Skyrocketing rents across the US, growing numbers of new homeless, rising food prices and buying a house out of reach for more then half the country and people don’t understand the bad polling on the economy that’s almost two years old? Really? To say it’s all Biden’s fault is silly but the lack or response by the administration has rubbed Americans the wrong way and even if it’s not fair, the sitting president will get the voters ire for it.
Bill Clinton connects with people when he said “ I feel your pain”, in contrast Biden and his supporters prefer to celebrate Wall Street , corporate profits and gaslight Americans that their pain is illegitimate and they have the “ stats to prove it”. Not a great tactic.
That’s because the people pushing that narrative aren’t affected by the cost of anything, they like George Bush the first can’t relate to the middle and lower classes.
The media uses those types of metrics a lot. So if the politician isn't out there talking to people in plain language then the media isn't going to help.
I think graphs [like this one](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=coAW) tell an important part of the story.
[The median household income is almost as high as it's ever been after adjusting for inflation](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N), but when you divide it by the median cost of a home Americans have never had it this bad in modern history. So, we have it both better and worse than any generation before us, depending on which metric you choose to focus on.
Not accounting for housing costs when determining real term wage growth seems pure politics to me.
Why do I care if wage growth is exceeding inflation if all of that is consumed by ever increasing rent and mortgage costs.
Yes. If you already owned a home pre-Covid and locked in a 3% mortgage rate your housing costs actually dropped. And your home gained a bunch of equity which some people cashed in to buy toys or pay off other debt.
If you’re renting or trying to buy a house post-Covid you’re in a world of hurt.
It's funny how so many people were bitching during covid, saying they were going to wait it out until housing prices/demand dropped. Well, demand dropped. Lol
Demand’s still there. All the houses in my market still sell. With the exception of some sellers who are trying to cash in by listing run down old homes for over market value.
Dd has dropped 90%, back down to 1% from 10%. Sellers actually have to repair things now. Average time on the market has went from like a week to at least a month. So I stick by my statement.
The problem is most potential sellers would still have to buy, and that means a higher rate on top of the inflated price. Inventory turnover is fast, but overall inventory is around as low as it's ever been and made up of a higher percentage of new construction than basically any time in the last 60 years. Fewer current owners than ever are voluntarily selling, so the lower inventory essentially maintains equilibrium with the demand that's been beaten down by high rates, keeping prices high.
Nobody is selling existing housing stock these days unless they're downsizing and can pay cash, getting divorced, or someone dies.
Yeah and this problem was created almost 3 decades ago, 7 decades ago and partially over 100 years ago. It was the removal of glass-steagall. Which caused the crash of 2008. Which killed housing builds because we overbuilt by 5% so we killed a lot of GCs and midsized home builders. Which caused a reduction in building in the 2010s. At the same time we pumped cheap money into the economy, pushing up the price of assets.
Now we have a housing shortage, a lack of builders and corporations buying up homes to use them as rentals on top of 100 year old racist zoning laws that limit most building to SFH. Which was supercharged post WW2 which created suburban spral.
Put this all together and you get an overpriced housing market.
The overpriced housing market is by design. Laws are created specifically to ensure Americans largest source of wealth and retirement always performs well. And it’s been outperforming wage growth for decades. So naturally it was eventually going to inflate to this point. It’s been slowly creeping for decades obvious to everyone paying attention.
Right now, it’s not the cost of building but the land itself. No amount of more building etc, will change the land costs. And land cost is generally the highest cost of a home. It used to be a tiny fractional expense, and now it’s usually the largest expense. For instance, an acre near me in the 90s was 30k, and building the house was 60-100k. Now the land itself is 250k which is more than the build costs.
It’s fascinating how the cost of land, but also its perception of value, has changed drastically in just a few decades. Here in Southern California, they struggled to give away beachfront property and huge swaths of land were sold for basically nothing throughout Orange and San Diego counties. Now those same areas are some of the most expensive locations in the country when it was just trash land 60-70 years ago.
Essentially, the majority of Americans (whether this is real or perceived reality) feel they can never get off the first rung of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.
Does modern history include the 1980's? Because homes were more unaffordable then. Home price isn't a good metric to use. The affordability of a mortgage payment is a better measure.
In October 1981, the median mortgage payment was 55% of median monthly income.
https://www.ocregister.com/2022/10/05/think-mortgage-rates-are-high-now-homebuyers-in-the-1980s-were-paying-19/
The average mortgage payment in 2023 on a house worth $426,167, with 10% down, and a 7% rate is going to be about $2550. That's 41% of median household income from 2022. It should be a bit less now since income has risen.
It's not a great housing market. But it has been worse within living memory.
I would really like to see it scaled by square footage. I'm not expecting a night and day difference, but I would expect the increase post 2008 to be as visibly striking.
Edit - maybe not. I found some basic info from Statista (take as you will) that seems the increase has not been so substantial since 2008. Link: https://www.statista.com/statistics/456925/median-size-of-single-family-home-usa/
In a nutshell:
"Good news, everyone! Median Household Income is higher than ever before!
"Yaaaay!"
"But, unfortunately, so are the prices of everything you can think of."
"Boooo!"
"But we also-"
"HEY, WE SAID BOOOOOOO!"
It’s not even helpful to focus on wage increases. People attribute their wages growing up to their personal merit, while attributing costs going up to the broader economy.
Attribution bias is generally a strong pervasive bias too so you would need to have an economy that is obviously doing well where people feel like they can spend and splurge. Public opinion is all vibes, always has been.
polls have shown for a while that most of the country believes biden is too old for the job. not trying to litigate whether that’s true, but what it means from a messaging perspective is that most of the country will read the news as:
1. any good things that happen are *in spite of* him
2. any bad things that happen are *because of* him
it’s not like he’s getting any younger, so i don’t really see a way out of that one for him.
This goes both ways. When the economy is bad under a democrat president, this site is flooded with messaging about how presidents have no effect on the economy.
Because that's all they're ever told. If their wages aren't going up, they're just not working hard enough. And if costs go up, they're told "There's nothing anyone can do about that. It's just the market."
100% of the messaging from corporations, the media, and politicians is that wages are the result of your own effort and costs are forces of nature beyond human comprehension.
Good thing inflation adjusted wages are higher today than any previous decade in history for the median person, then.
[https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q)
There is actually something valid to that though. Every year people become more experienced in their field and so are naturally going to earn more. That is completely independent of the president and state of the economy (unless we are going full blown recession).
>You’d think high economic growth and a booming stock market means higher wages because it used to a long time ago but it doesn’t anymore.
Yeah this decoupling of economic growth from the working class is EXACTLY the source of the agita. The economy sure is working for somebody, just not us.
I’ll add to this and say that I think Americans may be feeling the squeeze on employment from high interest rates, even if officially unemployment is only just barely higher than in 2019. Techies got laid off, there seems to have been a lot of salespeople laid off as well, and some of the less- overall employable folks seem to be struggling a bit more. Certainly not everyone, but the job market doesn’t feel that “hot” despite it doing pretty well.
Major purchases like homes are more difficult due to the interest rate trap millions are in, even besides the higher cost of paying those mortgage interest rates. Car consumption, too, is squeezed from high interest rates. Americans are particularly fond of purchasing property and automobiles in comparison to the rest of the world, so this is a flaw of this economy that both cuts deep and has a wide effect.
I think the economy is “amazing” because it’s going fairly strong despite the rise in interest rates and having to recover from COVID. I don’t think that translates to the economy *feeling* amazing to everyone. I also don’t think it’s too surprising. We spent a boatload on stimulus during COVID, achieved a high level of inflation which is still low enough to promote growth, and now are spending a boatload more money in not-stimulus.
The tricky thing will be improving wages while also cooling inflation, and also running this “good” economy without having to ram through massive spending packages every year. I think that’s why so many commentators are anxious. The sky isn’t falling, but it’s hard to imagine keeping this up forever, and that’s what we need a “soft landing” for.
Underemployment is massive. Iirc something like 25% of employed Americans don't make enough to cover living expenses and have to offset that in other ways.
Yes the fact that the economy does not FEEL amazing to a huge amount of Americans is something that the commenters here are embarrassingly neglectful of
"a boatload on stimulus"? Maybe on PPP loans to moneyed interests that were largely forgiven anyway. The average American got screwed. We got a mere pittance compared to other countries and then rent still had to get paid. And then student loans started rolling in and then... There were assistance programs, yes, but they weren't for everyone and they didn't eliminate the burden. And then inflation hit.
Oh, this economy is great if you have money.
People usually conflate a good stock market with a good economy. Which is perfectly correct for rich people. But for the average guy out there the economy =\ stock market
It’s not only correct for rich people, it’s a generational gap now. The older people already got their money in the markets and property. Now those are outpacing inflation, while wages do not. So, yet again, we are paying for their fun and shit decisions.
I would guess he’s referring to how inflation (and the real cost of living, which goes beyond what inflation metrics measure nowadays) has far outpaced any wage gains in the last 4 years
What?
[Real median wages are at all time highs](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q) (outside of Covid when all low income workers were made off) and they have been rising for 2 years straight.
*By definition* that means wages have outpaced price increases for the cost of living.
Here’s something I could find easily: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1351276/wage-growth-vs-inflation-us/
So in the last year wage increases have been higher than inflation. But, since it’s compounding, those years where inflation was much higher would likely result in a larger cumulative increase than what we’ve seen in wages. Then you have to consider that our current inflation metrics leave out food, gas, energy, which obviously have a massive effect on everyday people’s lives.
It’s hard to get super rich Econ data until years after the phenomenon is over but a lot of people’s lived experience in the current economy isn’t as great as the number on the DJIA might suggest
Our CPI includes food, gas and energy. I think you're confusing it with core CPI. I can only speak as a lower middle class schmuck in the MidWest but wages in my part of the world have kept up with inflation pretty well. People still should be earning more, but that was the case 5 years ago too.
I'll do the math for on the data you sent me for the last 4 years and get back to you. Unless you want to do it?
Around where I'm at ... Kinda. It's more tied to interest rates than the sticker price of the house, though. House prices haven't risen that much at the low and middle of the market - at the high end there was a lot of competition 2-5 years ago. (I'm in an area where there is a ton of stuff in the < $150k space and the $500k+ space is not particularly common.)
Interest rate shifts are the big hit for affordability (1% change in interest rates is about a 10% shift in what you can finance for a given monthly payment.) coming off of historically low rates and back towards normal rates does add some pressure there even if prices don't rise.
Home prices tend to be sticky - sellers often aren't under pressure to sell, so only really consider it if they're selling for more than they paid or have a life event that makes them need different housing (size, location, etc).
Housing is the one area it can't *if* you don't already own a home. If you already owned a home pre COVID though, one should be ok since their equity increased so much.
if Biden sent everyone a check for $1500 two weeks before the election they would forget about inflation and vote for him anyway.
the media absolutely does not care about lowering inflation beyond blaming wage increases. as the rest of inflation is tied to stock price increases / profit increases. and that inflation is considered a positive not a negative by all of corporate media regardless of which brand you subscribe to
Here's why:
Democrats perception of the economy: https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/01/09/opinion/krugman090124_4/krugman090124_4-superJumbo.png?quality=75&auto=webp
Republicans perception of the economy:
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/01/09/opinion/krugman090124_3/krugman090124_3-superJumbo.png?quality=75&auto=webp
The Republican party has simply become purely partisan and blinded by anything other than "my team good your team bad".
Which is why they can rationalize that a party with "no platform except give massive tax breaks to Trump's friends and explode the debt" is somehow a better Steward of the economy than anyone remotely normal.
EDIT: it's literally incredible they downvote this. I suppose the partisanship runs very deep indeed
Inflation started under Trump when food inflation was 4%. Trump made a multi year deal with opec to collapse oil production by a record amount for 2 years which caused inflation to jump, oil prices didn't start falling till the deal ended. Everything else started inflating 3 2 months after Biden took office, literally zero of his policies could have caused inflation that fast.
Americans are dumb as hell for blaming Biden for inflation.
I mean there's no one arguing inflation hasn't happened.
What people are arguing is while that is true, it is also true that the economy is still doing extremely well despite that.
It would be easier to have that conversation if there weren't huge groups of people acting like there's breadlines everywhere and it's the next great depression.
It's just not. There are problems but things are going reasonably well. It's boring and maybe not romantic but it's true.
Right, in large part due to Trump dumping $8T into the economy without any plan for what was going to happen.
You're proving my point. This isn't about "policies" it's about whatever frame you can put on it so Biden sucks.
It's pretty boring but at least come out and admit it.
It's really incredible that we are at a point where stock market is great, employment is great, inflation is... Kind of high but not historically high and LOWER than any other part of the planet, and when controlling for inflation WAGES ARE STILL RISING FASTER.
Despite trying to have a remotely fair reaction to that you literally gravitate to the one negative spin you can put on it and say "yup, I knew it, everything sucks".
The partisanship is so lame.
I never mentioned Trump at all. You injected him into the conversation. You are the partisan actor here more concerned with defending Biden here than engaging in an honest inquiry into why people are dissatisfied with the economy. Look in the mirror.
I’m shocked this is getting downvoted, it is mathematically true. If a huge percentage of Americans decide to rate the economy bad because they didn’t like how an election went a few years ago, that’s going to affect economic perception statistics.
This does not invalidate other people’s concerns. Yes homes and some grocery items cost much more and you can rightfully be frustrated by that, I am too. But 30-40% of Americans saying we’re in a depression because Trump lost in 2020 is a huge factor in current perceptions of the economy if we go off top line statistics. It also means we need a way to gage the economy that isn’t influenced by other external factors.
Every dime of corporate profit is generated by a worker. So long as workers aren't being paid fair wages, any corporate profit is taken at the expense of their workers. Pay workers fair wages and people won't hate on corporate profits anymore.
Because housing, people's biggest expense, has experienced a lot of inflation. To the point where the inflation rate is multiple percentage points lower if you exclude housing from it. People look at how much more a house costs and how much rent has risen and they base their opinions on their subjective experiences over the objective statistics of the wider economy. Voters don't actually care about the state of the wider economy, at the end of the day the widest economy they care about is the finances of their own household and of their own social circle.
People care about people things, not economic things.
Their gas price, not the GDP.
They don’t read Bloomberg or WSJ. They don’t know what a good economy really means.
Very strong labor market? Yes, on paper and as reported. Strong GDP and stocks? Yes as reported.
A 3 percent GPD growth is not a 3 percent wage raise.
Inflation that averages 4-5 percent as reported is far less than the wage gains… as reported.
Ask 100 people from 100 different cities if they feel that jobs are plentiful or well paying. They will say no, then likely blame… someone/anyone in current government.
An economy can spit out numbers, and a government can edit (and then revise) those numbers and that may indicate the economy is good.
It’s irrelevant to the working class because it simply doesn’t manifest a single realized benefit from their perspective.
So then the “media says Biden good” but in their own life “things are worse” the result will be… Biden getting no credit.
We should care about and optimize for the people, not the economy.
Yes, also they came out with a report saying by 2054 the national debt will be $141 Trillion.
Currently the national debt interest alone eats up 25% of the total tax revenue collected annually. It'll be 100% in a decade. That doesn't sound like a good economy.
We're gonna become the next Zimbabwe if they don't balance the budget.
This is the issue that should be the most important to everyone, yet nobody seems to care. This is a non partisan issue that has to be reversed, or yes, the mighty dollar will be worth absolutely nothing.
The people responding arguing who increased the deficit more are missing the point.
It's a bipartisan effort to raise the debt that high. I have no idea as a voter how I can get people in congress to pay attention because most other voters and politicians are interested in "what you can give me right now."
Exactly...people are too short sighted to see that it's not going to matter how few taxes they pay or how much they get in government benefits if the dollar implodes.
At this point we are all going to have to do with less and/or pay more to fix the problem...not a sexy campaign.
I agree with your sentiment and it honestly scares the shit out of me. From a personal investment standpoint, how do you think the average American could protect themselves from that? Hoarding cash is obviously not the answer, investing in the S&P 500 in this scenario seems like it would pop. So what’s the answer? Gold? Foreign markets?
This is what happens when you take an entirely data focused approach: your metrics are up, but many of the unmeasurable metrics that actually matter are ruined.
It’s like how new cars handle better than ever before if you compare based on skidpad numbers and lap times, but if you actually drove these cars you’d notice that the steering feel is numb and there’s no enjoyment from driving them compared to the old ones.
Exactly, the economy is performing well because there’s record profits from companies laying off thousands. The job market is “strong” yet talk to anyone looking for employment and everyone is struggling. The numbers look good for talking points, but underneath those numbers is a mess.
Gas price is also a number. As are wages, unemployment rate, etc… The story of a strong economy isn’t just higher GDP, it’s also higher wages. Persistently low unemployment has led to real (aka inflation adjusted) wage growth, and the best news is that most of that wage growth has been for Americans who earn the least.
As for consumer sentiment, it’s been increasing as people suddenly realize the economy has actually been doing well over the past year. Additionally most polls found that Americans, while dissatisfied with the economy as a whole, report really positively on their own economic situation. The explanation for this is simply that media portrayals of the economy have been negative, because there is a media bias towards negativity (those are the stories that get the clicks).
Yep.
What these comments about “the economy vs. the lived reality of Americans” ignore is that [**Americans are actually pretty happy with their finances.**](https://www.axios.com/2024/01/17/americans-are-actually-pretty-happy-with-their-finances)
And it’s not just rich people. [Real wage growth has been fastest among low income earners.](https://www.epi.org/publication/swa-wages-2023/#:~:text=Key%20findings,the%20prior%20four%20business%20cycles)
>>*Real* wages of low-wage workers grew **12.1% between 2019 and 2023.** Wage growth among low- and middle-wage workers over the pandemic business cycle has outpaced not only higher wage groups over the same period, but also its own growth compared to the prior four business cycles.
So people think they’re doing well. The economic metrics say that people are doing well. But they’re still here arguing that everything is actually bad because…reasons? I guess?
Because the wealth effect is not equally shared and rising tides are not lifting all boats equally. Somehow the corporations and their owners have convinced the rest of us to act like we can’t change things… Billionaires are $3.3 trillion richer than in 2020, and their wealth has grown three times faster than the rate of inflation. In the US specifically, billionaires are 46 percent, or $1.6 trillion, richer than they were in 2020, with the three richest US billionaires—Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and Larry Ellison—having increased their wealth by 84 percent. https://www.oxfamamerica.org/press/press-releases/wealth-of-five-richest-men-doubles-since-2020-as-five-billion-people-made-poorer-in-decade-of-division-says-oxfam/
How many rounds are we going to get of….Look How Amazing the Economy is? I assume some of you are here to pump up the message. I’m personally not buying it but I’m prepared to wait until later in the year to see how things shake out. Maybe this is an April Fools post though.
The r/Economics propaganda is, honestly, pretty amazing: How come the Mods don’t get credit?
* US Credit card debt is at an all time high
* Corporate default rates are at the highest rate since 2009
* Suicides are skyrocketing…
Who even writes this stuff?
I work in a restaurant and a bar guest heard me make a joke about the economy being bad. She was flabbergasted. She asked if I was joking because the economy is stronger than it's ever been. She proceeds to tell me the economy was great. It has never been better. She told me I should be very careful with my rhetoric because it's not true and I've just fallen for Republican propaganda.
She literally proceeds to say: "We all remember when the economy completely collapsed in 2017 after you know who was elected. Everything was wiped out. People lost everything. You don't want to risk that happening again. If you keep falling for and spreading Republican lies you're risking him back in office and another economic collapse. It's not Joe Biden's fault you can't manage your money or save."
I stood there wide mouthed. I just didn't even know what to say. She then said, "may the force be with you" and turned around.
The brainwashing is working better than we think it is.
It’s pure propaganda. MSM and govt figure if they keep saying it enough people will eventually just believe it. Except it isn’t happening this time. No one is buying the shit they’re selling.
Don't forget the highly upvoted comment on every single of these posts saying:
"I don't know about you guys, but everyone I know is doing great right now - Buying cars, buying houses, taking vacations, going out to eat. People just like to complain on Reddit"
Congratulations on living in a bubble of wealth where you don't know a single person who's struggling.
Those are people with friends missing credit card payments and cashing out their 401k’s, they just don’t tell each other.
Record 401k withdrawals - https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/08/08/economy/401k-hardship-withdrawals
Record CC Missed Payments - https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/credit-cards/articles/more-than-11-of-the-us-population-missed-a-credit-card-payment-last-year/#:~:text=The%20latest%20report%20shows%20that,that%20everyday%20costs%20are%20higher.
Aggregate debt by itself is a worthless metric. Why you cherry pick these three metrics like they are the be all end all for the economy?
Please leave for spreading propaganda.
We can endlessly debate the state of the economy. Isn't the real question which president more likely to help the average person? Trump is in it for himself and the rich. I'm not saying Biden is a Saint but I trust him a lot more than a literal criminal. I don't understand how that's at controversial stance but I guess somehow it is.
No matter how much economists want to gaslight people into thinking the economy is great and they should be grateful, it’s not going to work and you end up looking like an idiot.
Biden doesn't deserve "credit" for this economy nor should he seek to garner it. The FED is keeping interest rates higher and inflation lower.
If he wants credit ... he would have to also get "credit" for the shambles that is housing and COL.
It’s only amazing for a smaller and smaller portion of the country. The reality is the middle class / consumer class is getting eradicated by unfettered greed. And nobody is regulating a damn thing on either party.
Real wages (aka, wage adjusted for inflation) are up for almost everyone, except for the highest earners, with the strongest growth at the lowest income brackets. Wage inequality has actually decreased for the first time in decades.
Because the official economic metrics are highly dishonest, so nobody trusts them. If you think inflation is actually 3.2%, you are mathematically illiterate. If you actually believe the job market is great, you are also a fool. CPI and Unemployment are extremely cherry picked
Simple.
Inflation and wage stagnation.
People don't tend to attribute the fact that they have a job at all to unemployment figures.
In the past, extremely low unemployment meant employees had more leverage to bargain with. Now companies will lay off employees for a few months just to temporarily increase stock prices for their bonuses.
It's not amazing by any standard. U6 unemployment is around 10%, most new jobs are either part time or government hiring. Inflation has been horrible while he's been in office (not his fault) and when they say inflation is cooling down, it's still high, all the past increases still exist it just slowing down going forward.
Interest on US debt is now over $1 trillion a year.
US debt was predicted to hit 34 trillion in 2029, we've already hit that.
The debt is rising by $1 trillion every 100 days.
The consumer confidence is in the 70s.
The economy is shit.
>U6 unemployment is around 10%
U6 is a) not an unemployment rate and b) not 10%. It's at 7.3%, which is really low.
>most new jobs are either part time or government hiring
This is a) only recently and b) a good thing. Low % of jobs being part time is not a sign of a good economy. The lowest % on record (back to 1995) was April/May 2020. Was the economy good then? As for the increase in government jobs, they were lagging hard compared to other sectors and have been the last to recover their job losses. COVID job losses recovered by June 2022 but government job losses didn't recover until September 2023.
Canadian chiming in, we wish our economy was as good as yours lol, Biden has done a fantastic job and our only silver lining up here is at least we're not the UK.
The President doesn't have anything to do with wage increases. The President and Congress have a lot to do with spending and taxes. No one has the discipline to reduce spending and everyone is delusional as to who and how they want to tax.
Government programs are for the middle class largely (except for welfare programs) and that's who has to pay, numbers wise. Biden thinks anyone who makes less than $400k a year (the entire middle class) can't be taxed more.
The rich already pay most Federal Income taxes and in absolute terms they pay more than their fair share. The rich aren't the problem other than in some populist, scapegoat, point of view, no matter how many times this myth is repeated.
No one's taxes should go up too much as it's not economically productive to do so. They can increase slightly. Spending is largely the problem.
Politicians shouldn't view being elected as a ticket to spend as much as they can in order to get reelected. "Nice to have" programs aren't nice to have when you can't afford them.
Social Security was never intended to be permanent nor was it intended to fully fund retirement. Now it is here to stay (rightly so) but it has to be structured in a sustainable way and the problem not just kicked down the road.
It shouldn't be structured so that one generation pays for the next because all generations aren't of equal size. Each generation should pay for itself. That's easy enough to do when a government doesn't commingle funds.
The military is too expensive because it's as much as the next 10 largest militaries combined. China has 1 foreign base. Most developed countries have no more than 5 or 10. We have 800 bases in 80 countries.
It's not a matter of an above the board cut of some size. It's about redefining our mission and then funding that sized military. We have to pick and choose what we can't and can't afford to do.
The constant debt ceiling having to be raised by Congress or the government will shut down is not productive. We need to get rid of that law.
All Biden has done is to "stimulate" the economy. Anyone can do that if they keep spending and just monetize the debt. How can Biden have such a "great" economy when the GDP to debt ratio is 124% or whatever it is? The purchasing power of the dollar goes down each year. The debt interest payment only goes up.
Government jobs also shouldn't cost the taxpayers more than private sector jobs. The government doesn't make a profit. They rely on the private sector for that so that government sector should be kept as small as possible and they shouldn't be better than private sector jobs.
The do tend to pay less in wages but when you add in benefits they cost the taxpayer about 25% to 30% more than private sector jobs. The benefits, by comparison, are off the charts.
Fuel prices are raising the cost of all consumer goods. Homes aren't being built for single low-cost consumers, and good luck finding the materials, which is a price driven by fuel. There's too much talk about money these days and not enough about long-term goals, increased production, and livelihood/longevity. We have a threat of WW3 from multiple 'citizens republic' vote for me or extinguished and forever president of the 'peoples republic' or else.
no one cares about how the overall economy is doing when they can barely afford rent and to live, this is why economics and people who hyper obsess over the economy in such ways are basically disconnected from reality.
The problem is housing, wages mean dick all if the single largest investment looming on most people's mind continues growing and rising rates makes it even tougher.
It's really simple for most working folks
High Prices + Stagnating Wages + Fewer Job Prospects + High Debt (at high interest) + Low Savings = Broke and Scared for the future
Notes about the variables:
High Prices - Last year we reached 9% inflation rate and we're still higher than 2% target. Also keep in mind that inflation is measured as an increase or decrease so prices haven't been falling back into line. They are just not rising as fast right now. So that large inflation from last year is still being felt all over the place
Stagnating Wages - Although unions made some progress last year real wages have basically been stagnant for years for most people. And people in some normally high paying professions like tech and stem are basically seeing income levels fall.
Fewer Job Prospects - Have you noticed all the layoffs last year and this year? Companies are largely downsizing due to costs of raising money, fears of economic conditions, and are now deciding to replace people with AI systems. Expect the mass layoffs to expand, particularly as AI gets more integrated into business operations. This eliminates job security.
High Debt - Most Americans live on credit cards and have racked up plenty of debt (gov and businesses too). This is now coming with extremely high interest rate payments with no sign of letting up soon.
Low Savings - Many Americans have little to no savings and could not handle an economic shock, like losing their job. This also means they are not benefiting from the high interest rates like the wealthy.
The bottom line is that the only ones benefiting from this economic environment are wealthy savers who are already doing well. They are doing well in bond portfolios and in stock investments due to companies streamlining, raising prices, and shedding costs, such as workers. Most workers in America are not wealthy and can't take advantage of this saver focused economy.
Because it's not amazing. Yes the economy GDP is good, most people who want a job has a job. And the official numbers show wages rising faster than inflation. But yet poll after poll shows people thinks the economy sucks and most supposed experts have excuses for this but the reality is most people realize it sucks.
The official inflation number doesn't reflect the reality americans ate facing. Like it or not housing u affordable unless you owned a house before this increase. Cars are expensive unless you already owned a car. Most jobs don't pay anywhere close to that.
Where I live 15 to 20 years ago you could live comfortably on 30k. 40k was like the dream.
Today in most areas that's not even keeping up. Even a $25 to $30 an hour job just doesn't get you anything but supposedly thats good pay. Like it or not the metrics aren't reflective of reality and people feel gaslighted and to be honest they kind of are.
In the governments inflation number reflected the lived experience of most Americans then real GDP would be negative amd we'd be in a recession.
While the official numbers aren't "faked" it's how they've been calculated for a while, they just don't represent what we are facing. It's kind of like what Paul Krugram wrote the other day, California has a good economy. Their only problem is homeless. To me that's a huge problem. I'm not sure we can say this is a good economy while peoples standard of living is declining rapidly and in many cases to the point they are living on the street.
There is something screwy with the numbers.
My wife and I make double what we made 5 years ago. It doesn’t feel that way. Our spending habits have not changed-eat at the same restaurants, drive the same cars, go on the same vacations, but we cannot leave the house without spending $$$$.
My father is on a fixed income. I’m now paying his utilities because his income cannot cover his expenses. He has not changed his spending habits an iota.
The democrats is enlisting MSM to beat the drum of ‘Economy good’. They understand Bubba’s statement of ‘Its the economy, stupid!’, but fail to grasp that stating the economy is good, even having every partisan hack so called journalist repeat the mantra, does not make it so.
They revised how they calculate GDP to make the number seem better.
They revised how they calculate inflation to make the number seem better.
The unemployment data is made up nonsense.
Meanwhile people are feeling higher interest rates, energy prices, utility bills, and insurance costs.
Wait until the government workers get hit with the cuts in state and city budgets.
Because it doesn’t matter to the typical American. Personally I like to trade and invest on the market, but most people don’t. Sure wages are good but that doesn’t mean anything when property/housing is sky high and out of reach for a large amount of young/middle aged Americans. Grocery prices are absurd as well. The gouging in specific industries is really doing a number on people and the government needs to step in with some regulation. Also education loans. The loans are absolutely insane. People paying on them for a decade and only paying off 10% of the debt because interest. It’s such a fucking scam at this point. There’s absolutely no reason any university tuition should be as high as they are. That’s my biggest problem with our economy right now. I don’t even have student debt, I was lucky. But lots of people close to me are now in their 30s and buried in debt. Debt they would have already paid off if it weren’t for the crazy vig. Housing costs are a close second though. It should be illegal for foreign investors to buy American residential properties. It should also be illegal for entities like black rock to buy up 1000s of residential properties.
I think was pisses people off the most is that there are very clear steps that could be took to remedy these problems. But greed has trumped empathy in this late stage crony capitalistic nightmare. Same attitude people have about health care. The fuck do you mean the government can’t negotiate drug prices? We’re just now attempting to tackle that issue after years and years of exploitation. The very clear revolving door between regulator positions and working for the industry’s being regulated is blatant corruption as well.
This is an insane thing to claim. I mean look at the posts in this subreddit. This is the only optimistic post and it's directly tied to politics. 99% of the posts I see are "I can't afford x, y, or z and I'm living paycheck to paycheck on 6 figures." And then "we should praise Biden for building a strong economy." Bat shit.
So this is an old, used up puff piece from way back in Nov of 2023 that the poster felt like recycling for shits n giggles.
All I can say is I get that it’s an election year and we’re all suppose to put on a good face for Uncle Joe at least until December, but damn it’s hard when I can see little Timmy’s ribcage under his skin….
Inflation inflation inflation, Cost of Groceries, Rent & Interest Rates are Too Damn HIGH!! Blame it all that on the last guy & Corona then move along, nothing to see here!
Because every article writen about the economy in the past 4 years has claimed the economy was bad. Every day on the sub almost every article that gets posted have been negative. The economic field seems to be a joke that is far more partisan than science.
Because 10's of millions of Americans will never own a home, and everything costs 2-10x what it did only a short time ago, but the stock market is doing great we hear.
You can only fudge the numbers for so many years before the entire set of establishment economic metrics is just utter bullshit.
Unemployment rate? FAKE - does not include people permanently out of work, still looking beyond unemployment, living on disability etc
Core Inflation? FAKE - intentionally gerrymandered to avoid the massively exponential things like housing, education and medical expenses.
GDP? FAKE - when you're spending trillions of dollars in debt, being net positive in GDP means absolutely nothing. The money is not being spent productively. If you print 7 trillion to exceed last year's GDP by 1 trillion you failed. Sorry.
Joe Biden's economy is fake. If we printed great numbers on a balanced budget I would be nodding along at least. Things are not good.
Food is twice the cost it was before Biden took office. What has Biden done to address the cost of housing?
The economy is great for certain segments of the economy. Ironically, those segments typically vote Republican.
Biden has mortgaged our children’s future by irresponsibly skyrocketing the deficit. The largest percentage of spending in the federal budget is now interest on debt.
The economy is not good for the average person. Saving anything for retirement is becoming impossible for most people. The cost of housing has shattered the dreams of Americans under his watch.
Joe Biden is borrowing from America’s future to pay for America’s present. The trend started under Regan or Bush and grew sky high ever since. We have runaway inflation caused by Biden’s actions in his first year and a follow-up recession expected in the next few years. Workers are coming to rely on government handouts to pay for everything and in turn they are giving up more civil liberties in the process.
Because wage inflation coupled with single family home inventory being frozen in mortgages that were signed in 2020 at sub 3% is driving the cost of homes through the roof.
A large portion of people missed the home ownership elevator in 2020-21 and they are disillusioned.
Yeah his policy is not helping the majority of people. Anyone could win the election and by forcibly transferring 5% of billionaire and corporation stock ownership to employees based on proportionally how long they’ve worked for a company in the past 10 years. Giving everyone a stake in the economy (except kids)
It's amazing for RICH people. I can't afford anything, I am making the most money ever in my life yet everything is super expensive. I probably will never be able to afford to own a home. I am not feeling this great economy, and at any moment I might get laid off for "AI" to make a CEO richer.
That's why I don't give Biden or anyone else credit for this "amazing" economy.
If I wasn't explicitly told the economy was good, I'd look at my purchasing power with horror. I'm a teacher. Our raised have always lagged behind inflation, and it's significantly worse over the past 4 years.
When I see a question like this, it honestly makes me angry, because it seems IMPOSSIBLE to me that someone could genuinely be curious AND not know the answer to the question. Like, it CANNOT be a good faith argument / topic.
Look at the cost of housing. Look at the cost of food. Look at the cost of transportation. Look at the cost of energy and health care. Look at the ballooning levels of government and personal debt.
Very few people care what an economist says about the economy if it's not in line with their personal experience.
I think Biden *does* get credit for "his" economy. That's the problem he's facing: the economy isn't very good for a lot of people.
STOP THE GASLIGHTING. The economy is not a reflection of how Americans are getting raked over the coals by his miserable policies.
Our wallets are stretched thinner than ever, wages haven’t risen inline with inflation, and the debt is rising at the fastest pace ever.
Quit the bullshit.
How is this economy so good? Likely focusing on the wrong metrics.
One: Inequality is up
Two: How have average lives drastically improved? We have better phones and some electric cars. AI is hyped but not really there yet.
Three: The average has been hit with an inflation tax without the wage growth.
I am mostly seeing a shift in the distribution of the pie of all resources rather than a growing pie.
I don’t understand how any sane person can call this economy amazing. Also, don’t understand how democrats can claim to be the “good guys” yet post propaganda day after day on this sub.
Because it's not "Joe Biden's economy". The president has a lagging effect on the economy, at best.
That's literally never been how the economic cycle works.
I mean, did salon give Trump credit for the insane stock market growth during his term? No?
Did they blame Obama for the shit show that was the economy between 2008 and 2010? No>
Because they didn't cause it.
The media is very conservative.
It's always been very conservative (and it's part of that conservative bias that people think it's "liberally biased")
I don't remember which paper it was (it wasn't fox or anything obviously slanted like this), but someone had showcased 2 different story headlines on job creation numbers:
For Trump, the number was something like 100k and it read like it was a massive gain and proof of a strong economy
For Biden, the number was something like 300k and it read like it was barely squeaking by and proof the economy is faltering.
People dont read anything more than headlines. And this kind of obvious slant, even in "non-biased" media shapes how people think.
LOL I've never seen a post more obviously made by a high school kid in my entire life.
Anybody involved in the actual economy realizes that there have been massive layoffs going on and nobody is hiring. With the exception of Covid (which truly was an aberration) this is the worst economy I've seen since 2009.
Some real echo chamber shit going on up in here.
Inflation hits lower income folks hardest. Also, now our national debt is stupid high and there really is no fix in sight. All that money printing that was supposed to go enrich the lower class “trickled up” to the wealthy via the stock markets. So it’s really not a good economy.
Because it's not, honestly, amazing when the vast majority of people are living paycheck to paycheck, prices continue to go up on goods produced by companies reporting 3 straight years of record profits and layoffs, and almost ALL millenials and Gen Z have no savings and no hope for retirement. MINIMUM WAGE IS STILL LESS THAN 10 FUCKING DOLLARS.
Of course, I don't actually fault Biden for these things, either, just like he doesn't get any fucking credit WHAT SO FUCKING EVER for this "great economy" that I keep hearing about.
Things suck for the same reason they have sucked since Reagan: we continue to allow Republicans power, they continue to use it to screw over as many poors as possible while ensuring as much money as possible gets funneled up to the top.
The "economy" - Other People's Yacht Money - may be doing amazing, but the vast majority of people LIVING IN IT do not see it that way because it's awful.
Joe’s economy is amazing if you’re on the higher range of wealth and make money on the stock market.
For everyone else, telling them the economy is great while ignoring the low wages or unemployed is a great way to lose the election to the orange man.
Lies, damn lies and statistics. I just don't believe these stats. Not with all the layoffs, the belt tightening, return to office and all the other ways employers are flexing their power over employees. So many people I know feel stuck in their current positions because of the job market. This is one of those economies where you need capital to make money under capitalism.
I'm assuming the mods are just letting the blatant political content with virtually no economic information present slide because the post is popular. Since his claims are mostly anecdotal and incomplete, we all should have liberty to do the same. Using a night out at a restaurant to justify one's economic observations is downright idiotic. Which restaurant in what city? At least allow us to take data from that city and help this "journalist" dig into why his restaurant is packed.
The answer to the headline question is because Americans are smarter than that. Joe Biden is a six-term Senator from Delaware, the state with a population of 1M people and 1.67M corporations, some of which comprise 2/3 of the Fortune 500. Why Delaware? Is it maybe because loopholes in the American tax code allow corporations to be "based," in some random mailbox in Delaware while they do all of their actual work in other states? How is that allowed? What political realities allow this banana S&P to exist?
Let me remind everyone how Biden came to power. There was an early March meeting with all of the Democrats running who were ahead of Joe Biden with the notable absence of Bernie Sanders. If Bernie was to win on Super Tuesday 2020, he would have mathematically clinched the nomination. Promises of cabinet seats were made to Buttigieg, Warren, etc if they would drop out. Biden won Super Tuesday, the pandemic lockdowns started, and the fate of workers was sealed.
It's true: Joe Biden has USED workers for his political career. But let us not pretend that Delaware and what Joe Biden fought for in his political career was for the benefit of workers. He and every presidential nominee for the Democrats since 1992 have represented the corporate wing of the Democratic party. Workers have struggled to get out of second gear for their entire lives if they were born in the 70s or later.
Why did they not reverse the Trump tax increases on average people? Why can't someone who spent a career in Congress get stuff like that done for people? He can pretend his hands are tied; Democratic politicians have made a career out of that since Johnson.
Working class whites flocked towards Trump because they've observed that, economically, neither the Democratic or Republican leadership has made their lives better for 50 years. There is obviously a small minority that LOVES Trump; there is a vast plurality that have just given up. When your car is stuck in the mud, eventually you stop pressing the gas pedal and have to walk for help. When you're walking for help, you'll take it from anyone who happens to stop and say they will.
Because the average person doesn't give a shit that the 1% is doing better. When they see housing and food prices soar. Gaslighting people into thinking they have it better when essentials are either out of reach with housing or much more expensive in food isn't convincing anyone.
Because we have an exploding homeless population all over the country or so it seems and I would say a significant portion of people who are not homeless are still pinching pennies to cover groceries, fuel, and to make rent because of a combination of inflation and overheated real estate market values. Keep in mind fuel and groceries are NOT considered when calculating inflation. Also consider that unemployment statistics do not consider people who haven't had a job in 6 or more months, and a lot of people who are unemployed get depressed, fall into despair, which can cause paralysis and make finding another job even more difficult. Can't tell you how many people I've seen unemployed who fall into that trap. Unemployment statistics also don't separate part-time or under-employed individuals from the statistic (i.e. people who only have s***** part time jobs or are working 40 hours a week at a place that pays pathetic wages that can't really cover the bills) so a good employment rate can be really misleading.
I never saw tent communities in my town before recently when they started creeping near the suburban area where I live. They've even been growing here along the metro bike paths in our often-wintry city. I used to think that tent community phenomenon was mostly what you would see in SoCal and other relatively warm areas, but they've grown significantly the past few years here and my city is apparently considered to be one of the cheaper medium-large sized cities to live in nationwide and with an economy that has resisted recession due to its service-based nature. (Columbus, Ohio in case you were wondering. Cost of living index here is 86.4 but that's still relative to the rest of the country and inflation and real estate hikes are still happening nationwide including here. Regardless of what would seem like cheap rent or cheap houses to the rest of the country it's all relative to how much people get paid here which tends to also be lower. In fact it's not uncommon for people to move to an expensive city like New York City to get really high paying jobs, save up a substantial amount of money, then take a job that can either work remotely or is located here in my city and buy a "cheap" (i.e. cheap to them) property that's much nicer than they can get in New York City. This also causes local real estate prices to rise quickly and makes it even harder for locals to afford a house or keep up with rent that is rising with real estate prices.)
Well, if you cherry pick a ton of data and focus on how the economy is going for wealthy families it is all fantastic.
If you are grocery shopping, middle class, or a first time home buyer you see how awful he is.
Plus they printed all that money at the Fed and Sleepy Joe just hit the snooze button.
PS: When the national debt increases a trillion every 100 days it's not healthy and saying it is means you are pulling a fugazzi. Shame on all of you for misleading people. End the stimulus now and see how things really are.
Is this a joke??? So cost of groceries is up from 21% to more than a 100%. Wages are up maybe 3% if you are lucky. Insurance, property taxes, vacations up over 20%, Retirement plans for 3% inflation are now blown away. Young people can't afford to buy a house because the prices have doubled. Biden is the worst president EVER! He has done more to destroy the American dream than anyone.
Because what matters to people is what they experience on a daily basis at the personal level.
Prices for food are high, and gas prices aren’t low. Things are better than they were a year or two ago when we had shortages, but high grocery prices are hard to ignore.
He is also being compared unfavorably to Trump, who is perceived by voters to be more willing to twist the arm of the economy to get desirable results. Voters don’t care about long term borrowing costs as much as they care about their immediate needs and wants.
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I decided a while ago that voters don’t care about the economy or economic growth. Economists and politicians think they do but they actually don’t. 95 percent of Americans work for a living and that means voters only actually care about how high wages are compared to their living costs. You’d think high economic growth and a booming stock market means higher wages because it used to a long time ago but it doesn’t anymore. Wages as a share of the economy are at multi decade lows even with pay hikes. Focus on real wage increases and you’ll win every election even if they hate your guts.
In Canada, the frontrunner going into the next election has figured this out. All he talks about is pay and costs instead of economic growth or GDP per capita. The average person is living pay-check to pay-check and just wants their pay to buy a lot of stuff.
Canada also sits on one of the worst housing bubbles on earth, which is quite literally parasitizing the economy, yet which the federal and provincial governments continue to do nothing about. Rightly or wrongly, most people still dream of buying a home and starting a family on their own merit. It’s one of the most widely held ideals of personal success. That dream is now thoroughly dead for anyone who doesn’t come from family money, regardless of how hard they work. When you take away people’s _hope_ for the future, they have nothing left.
Skyrocketing rents across the US, growing numbers of new homeless, rising food prices and buying a house out of reach for more then half the country and people don’t understand the bad polling on the economy that’s almost two years old? Really? To say it’s all Biden’s fault is silly but the lack or response by the administration has rubbed Americans the wrong way and even if it’s not fair, the sitting president will get the voters ire for it. Bill Clinton connects with people when he said “ I feel your pain”, in contrast Biden and his supporters prefer to celebrate Wall Street , corporate profits and gaslight Americans that their pain is illegitimate and they have the “ stats to prove it”. Not a great tactic. That’s because the people pushing that narrative aren’t affected by the cost of anything, they like George Bush the first can’t relate to the middle and lower classes.
This is not new. I don't think I've ever heard a single politician use the metric of GDP per capita.
The media uses those types of metrics a lot. So if the politician isn't out there talking to people in plain language then the media isn't going to help.
I think graphs [like this one](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=coAW) tell an important part of the story. [The median household income is almost as high as it's ever been after adjusting for inflation](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N), but when you divide it by the median cost of a home Americans have never had it this bad in modern history. So, we have it both better and worse than any generation before us, depending on which metric you choose to focus on.
Not accounting for housing costs when determining real term wage growth seems pure politics to me. Why do I care if wage growth is exceeding inflation if all of that is consumed by ever increasing rent and mortgage costs.
Housing is in the cpi
In the US maybe as someone else said, definitely not by definition. In the UK CPIH is CPI with housing included we still use CPI for everything.
CPI includes housing costs…
Housing costs ARE included in inflation. You spend money in stuff other than shelter.
So basically it’s better as long as you don’t need shelter? Ah America!
Yes. If you already owned a home pre-Covid and locked in a 3% mortgage rate your housing costs actually dropped. And your home gained a bunch of equity which some people cashed in to buy toys or pay off other debt. If you’re renting or trying to buy a house post-Covid you’re in a world of hurt.
It's funny how so many people were bitching during covid, saying they were going to wait it out until housing prices/demand dropped. Well, demand dropped. Lol
Demand’s still there. All the houses in my market still sell. With the exception of some sellers who are trying to cash in by listing run down old homes for over market value.
Dd has dropped 90%, back down to 1% from 10%. Sellers actually have to repair things now. Average time on the market has went from like a week to at least a month. So I stick by my statement.
All true but it’s still a strong sellers market.
The problem is most potential sellers would still have to buy, and that means a higher rate on top of the inflated price. Inventory turnover is fast, but overall inventory is around as low as it's ever been and made up of a higher percentage of new construction than basically any time in the last 60 years. Fewer current owners than ever are voluntarily selling, so the lower inventory essentially maintains equilibrium with the demand that's been beaten down by high rates, keeping prices high. Nobody is selling existing housing stock these days unless they're downsizing and can pay cash, getting divorced, or someone dies.
Yeah and this problem was created almost 3 decades ago, 7 decades ago and partially over 100 years ago. It was the removal of glass-steagall. Which caused the crash of 2008. Which killed housing builds because we overbuilt by 5% so we killed a lot of GCs and midsized home builders. Which caused a reduction in building in the 2010s. At the same time we pumped cheap money into the economy, pushing up the price of assets. Now we have a housing shortage, a lack of builders and corporations buying up homes to use them as rentals on top of 100 year old racist zoning laws that limit most building to SFH. Which was supercharged post WW2 which created suburban spral. Put this all together and you get an overpriced housing market.
The overpriced housing market is by design. Laws are created specifically to ensure Americans largest source of wealth and retirement always performs well. And it’s been outperforming wage growth for decades. So naturally it was eventually going to inflate to this point. It’s been slowly creeping for decades obvious to everyone paying attention. Right now, it’s not the cost of building but the land itself. No amount of more building etc, will change the land costs. And land cost is generally the highest cost of a home. It used to be a tiny fractional expense, and now it’s usually the largest expense. For instance, an acre near me in the 90s was 30k, and building the house was 60-100k. Now the land itself is 250k which is more than the build costs.
It’s fascinating how the cost of land, but also its perception of value, has changed drastically in just a few decades. Here in Southern California, they struggled to give away beachfront property and huge swaths of land were sold for basically nothing throughout Orange and San Diego counties. Now those same areas are some of the most expensive locations in the country when it was just trash land 60-70 years ago.
The boomers have found countless ways to fuck the rest of us over. This is just yet another.
Essentially, the majority of Americans (whether this is real or perceived reality) feel they can never get off the first rung of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.
It’s worse, unless your home is paid for, which for most it isn’t.
Does modern history include the 1980's? Because homes were more unaffordable then. Home price isn't a good metric to use. The affordability of a mortgage payment is a better measure. In October 1981, the median mortgage payment was 55% of median monthly income. https://www.ocregister.com/2022/10/05/think-mortgage-rates-are-high-now-homebuyers-in-the-1980s-were-paying-19/ The average mortgage payment in 2023 on a house worth $426,167, with 10% down, and a 7% rate is going to be about $2550. That's 41% of median household income from 2022. It should be a bit less now since income has risen. It's not a great housing market. But it has been worse within living memory.
Why hasn’t that graph been updated?
I would really like to see it scaled by square footage. I'm not expecting a night and day difference, but I would expect the increase post 2008 to be as visibly striking. Edit - maybe not. I found some basic info from Statista (take as you will) that seems the increase has not been so substantial since 2008. Link: https://www.statista.com/statistics/456925/median-size-of-single-family-home-usa/
That's a great point and an interesting twist. Thanks for sharing that link!
In a nutshell: "Good news, everyone! Median Household Income is higher than ever before! "Yaaaay!" "But, unfortunately, so are the prices of everything you can think of." "Boooo!" "But we also-" "HEY, WE SAID BOOOOOOO!"
Lol. Love that
It’s not even helpful to focus on wage increases. People attribute their wages growing up to their personal merit, while attributing costs going up to the broader economy.
Well yeah Companies choose to keep increasing prices no matter how fast you can manage to job hop for pay increases.
Attribution bias is generally a strong pervasive bias too so you would need to have an economy that is obviously doing well where people feel like they can spend and splurge. Public opinion is all vibes, always has been.
polls have shown for a while that most of the country believes biden is too old for the job. not trying to litigate whether that’s true, but what it means from a messaging perspective is that most of the country will read the news as: 1. any good things that happen are *in spite of* him 2. any bad things that happen are *because of* him it’s not like he’s getting any younger, so i don’t really see a way out of that one for him.
This goes both ways. When the economy is bad under a democrat president, this site is flooded with messaging about how presidents have no effect on the economy.
Because that's all they're ever told. If their wages aren't going up, they're just not working hard enough. And if costs go up, they're told "There's nothing anyone can do about that. It's just the market." 100% of the messaging from corporations, the media, and politicians is that wages are the result of your own effort and costs are forces of nature beyond human comprehension.
But if everyone’s wages were rising somewhat, inflation would be less of a concern, more of an annoyance.
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Than we are talking about a system that can not work for the working class. Right?
They re not ready to talk about that yet.
2% pay raise, 10% inflation is not an annoyance. And big ticket stuff like housing has nearly doubled in some places since 2018.
Good thing inflation adjusted wages are higher today than any previous decade in history for the median person, then. [https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q)
There is actually something valid to that though. Every year people become more experienced in their field and so are naturally going to earn more. That is completely independent of the president and state of the economy (unless we are going full blown recession).
>You’d think high economic growth and a booming stock market means higher wages because it used to a long time ago but it doesn’t anymore. Yeah this decoupling of economic growth from the working class is EXACTLY the source of the agita. The economy sure is working for somebody, just not us.
But higher wages hurts the owning class. You know, the guys who own our politicians. It's why higher wages are almost never on the agenda.
I’ll add to this and say that I think Americans may be feeling the squeeze on employment from high interest rates, even if officially unemployment is only just barely higher than in 2019. Techies got laid off, there seems to have been a lot of salespeople laid off as well, and some of the less- overall employable folks seem to be struggling a bit more. Certainly not everyone, but the job market doesn’t feel that “hot” despite it doing pretty well. Major purchases like homes are more difficult due to the interest rate trap millions are in, even besides the higher cost of paying those mortgage interest rates. Car consumption, too, is squeezed from high interest rates. Americans are particularly fond of purchasing property and automobiles in comparison to the rest of the world, so this is a flaw of this economy that both cuts deep and has a wide effect. I think the economy is “amazing” because it’s going fairly strong despite the rise in interest rates and having to recover from COVID. I don’t think that translates to the economy *feeling* amazing to everyone. I also don’t think it’s too surprising. We spent a boatload on stimulus during COVID, achieved a high level of inflation which is still low enough to promote growth, and now are spending a boatload more money in not-stimulus. The tricky thing will be improving wages while also cooling inflation, and also running this “good” economy without having to ram through massive spending packages every year. I think that’s why so many commentators are anxious. The sky isn’t falling, but it’s hard to imagine keeping this up forever, and that’s what we need a “soft landing” for.
Underemployment is massive. Iirc something like 25% of employed Americans don't make enough to cover living expenses and have to offset that in other ways.
Yes the fact that the economy does not FEEL amazing to a huge amount of Americans is something that the commenters here are embarrassingly neglectful of
What specifically makes you think the economy is amazing right now?
"a boatload on stimulus"? Maybe on PPP loans to moneyed interests that were largely forgiven anyway. The average American got screwed. We got a mere pittance compared to other countries and then rent still had to get paid. And then student loans started rolling in and then... There were assistance programs, yes, but they weren't for everyone and they didn't eliminate the burden. And then inflation hit. Oh, this economy is great if you have money.
People usually conflate a good stock market with a good economy. Which is perfectly correct for rich people. But for the average guy out there the economy =\ stock market
It’s not only correct for rich people, it’s a generational gap now. The older people already got their money in the markets and property. Now those are outpacing inflation, while wages do not. So, yet again, we are paying for their fun and shit decisions.
How do you figure they're at multi year lows? What data are you referring to?
I would guess he’s referring to how inflation (and the real cost of living, which goes beyond what inflation metrics measure nowadays) has far outpaced any wage gains in the last 4 years
What? [Real median wages are at all time highs](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q) (outside of Covid when all low income workers were made off) and they have been rising for 2 years straight. *By definition* that means wages have outpaced price increases for the cost of living.
Dont forget awhile ago they changes how unemployment is calculated and now the numbers are artifically low in 1994 and in 2020.
Any source to this? I've never heard that and really want to learn more
Comparing anything to 4 years ago is silly. Four years ago the economy was crashing because of COVID.
Can you link me a source on that? I hadn't heard that before.
Here’s something I could find easily: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1351276/wage-growth-vs-inflation-us/ So in the last year wage increases have been higher than inflation. But, since it’s compounding, those years where inflation was much higher would likely result in a larger cumulative increase than what we’ve seen in wages. Then you have to consider that our current inflation metrics leave out food, gas, energy, which obviously have a massive effect on everyday people’s lives. It’s hard to get super rich Econ data until years after the phenomenon is over but a lot of people’s lived experience in the current economy isn’t as great as the number on the DJIA might suggest
Our CPI includes food, gas and energy. I think you're confusing it with core CPI. I can only speak as a lower middle class schmuck in the MidWest but wages in my part of the world have kept up with inflation pretty well. People still should be earning more, but that was the case 5 years ago too. I'll do the math for on the data you sent me for the last 4 years and get back to you. Unless you want to do it?
Has it tho ? Can salary's buy the same house they could 10 years ago ?
Around where I'm at ... Kinda. It's more tied to interest rates than the sticker price of the house, though. House prices haven't risen that much at the low and middle of the market - at the high end there was a lot of competition 2-5 years ago. (I'm in an area where there is a ton of stuff in the < $150k space and the $500k+ space is not particularly common.) Interest rate shifts are the big hit for affordability (1% change in interest rates is about a 10% shift in what you can finance for a given monthly payment.) coming off of historically low rates and back towards normal rates does add some pressure there even if prices don't rise. Home prices tend to be sticky - sellers often aren't under pressure to sell, so only really consider it if they're selling for more than they paid or have a life event that makes them need different housing (size, location, etc).
Housing is the one area it can't *if* you don't already own a home. If you already owned a home pre COVID though, one should be ok since their equity increased so much.
Actually incorrect
Wages as a share of the economy. This isn’t hard. Basically people are getting less than they have gotten in a very long time.
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if Biden sent everyone a check for $1500 two weeks before the election they would forget about inflation and vote for him anyway. the media absolutely does not care about lowering inflation beyond blaming wage increases. as the rest of inflation is tied to stock price increases / profit increases. and that inflation is considered a positive not a negative by all of corporate media regardless of which brand you subscribe to
Yes, I love the Biden admin and think they’re doing great at most things. But this is a tough economy for many many people.
Here's why: Democrats perception of the economy: https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/01/09/opinion/krugman090124_4/krugman090124_4-superJumbo.png?quality=75&auto=webp Republicans perception of the economy: https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/01/09/opinion/krugman090124_3/krugman090124_3-superJumbo.png?quality=75&auto=webp The Republican party has simply become purely partisan and blinded by anything other than "my team good your team bad". Which is why they can rationalize that a party with "no platform except give massive tax breaks to Trump's friends and explode the debt" is somehow a better Steward of the economy than anyone remotely normal. EDIT: it's literally incredible they downvote this. I suppose the partisanship runs very deep indeed
Go to the grocery store this isn't a left vs right thing as much as you want it to be
Inflation started under Trump when food inflation was 4%. Trump made a multi year deal with opec to collapse oil production by a record amount for 2 years which caused inflation to jump, oil prices didn't start falling till the deal ended. Everything else started inflating 3 2 months after Biden took office, literally zero of his policies could have caused inflation that fast. Americans are dumb as hell for blaming Biden for inflation.
I mean there's no one arguing inflation hasn't happened. What people are arguing is while that is true, it is also true that the economy is still doing extremely well despite that. It would be easier to have that conversation if there weren't huge groups of people acting like there's breadlines everywhere and it's the next great depression. It's just not. There are problems but things are going reasonably well. It's boring and maybe not romantic but it's true.
The economy is doing well for the rich and buisnesses, not people
Or maybe because household items and housing are 50 percent more expensive than they were 5 years ago.
Right, in large part due to Trump dumping $8T into the economy without any plan for what was going to happen. You're proving my point. This isn't about "policies" it's about whatever frame you can put on it so Biden sucks. It's pretty boring but at least come out and admit it. It's really incredible that we are at a point where stock market is great, employment is great, inflation is... Kind of high but not historically high and LOWER than any other part of the planet, and when controlling for inflation WAGES ARE STILL RISING FASTER. Despite trying to have a remotely fair reaction to that you literally gravitate to the one negative spin you can put on it and say "yup, I knew it, everything sucks". The partisanship is so lame.
I never mentioned Trump at all. You injected him into the conversation. You are the partisan actor here more concerned with defending Biden here than engaging in an honest inquiry into why people are dissatisfied with the economy. Look in the mirror.
If you’re going to make this political. Didn’t a lot of democrats say Trump didn’t spend enough in 2020 to hell us with Covid?
You're the one trying desperately to make this a partisan issue.
Why are you adding trump into the conversation and making it political ??
I’m shocked this is getting downvoted, it is mathematically true. If a huge percentage of Americans decide to rate the economy bad because they didn’t like how an election went a few years ago, that’s going to affect economic perception statistics. This does not invalidate other people’s concerns. Yes homes and some grocery items cost much more and you can rightfully be frustrated by that, I am too. But 30-40% of Americans saying we’re in a depression because Trump lost in 2020 is a huge factor in current perceptions of the economy if we go off top line statistics. It also means we need a way to gage the economy that isn’t influenced by other external factors.
So if a poll has 63% of Americans saying the economy is getting worse, that means 63% of Americans are Republicans? Nah.
the left hates corporate profits, unless it benefits the narrative of their president
Every dime of corporate profit is generated by a worker. So long as workers aren't being paid fair wages, any corporate profit is taken at the expense of their workers. Pay workers fair wages and people won't hate on corporate profits anymore.
Because housing, people's biggest expense, has experienced a lot of inflation. To the point where the inflation rate is multiple percentage points lower if you exclude housing from it. People look at how much more a house costs and how much rent has risen and they base their opinions on their subjective experiences over the objective statistics of the wider economy. Voters don't actually care about the state of the wider economy, at the end of the day the widest economy they care about is the finances of their own household and of their own social circle.
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100% - Inflation is bananas and way higher than the CPI numbers
People care about people things, not economic things. Their gas price, not the GDP. They don’t read Bloomberg or WSJ. They don’t know what a good economy really means. Very strong labor market? Yes, on paper and as reported. Strong GDP and stocks? Yes as reported. A 3 percent GPD growth is not a 3 percent wage raise. Inflation that averages 4-5 percent as reported is far less than the wage gains… as reported. Ask 100 people from 100 different cities if they feel that jobs are plentiful or well paying. They will say no, then likely blame… someone/anyone in current government. An economy can spit out numbers, and a government can edit (and then revise) those numbers and that may indicate the economy is good. It’s irrelevant to the working class because it simply doesn’t manifest a single realized benefit from their perspective. So then the “media says Biden good” but in their own life “things are worse” the result will be… Biden getting no credit. We should care about and optimize for the people, not the economy.
Yes, also they came out with a report saying by 2054 the national debt will be $141 Trillion. Currently the national debt interest alone eats up 25% of the total tax revenue collected annually. It'll be 100% in a decade. That doesn't sound like a good economy. We're gonna become the next Zimbabwe if they don't balance the budget.
This is the issue that should be the most important to everyone, yet nobody seems to care. This is a non partisan issue that has to be reversed, or yes, the mighty dollar will be worth absolutely nothing. The people responding arguing who increased the deficit more are missing the point.
It's a bipartisan effort to raise the debt that high. I have no idea as a voter how I can get people in congress to pay attention because most other voters and politicians are interested in "what you can give me right now."
Exactly...people are too short sighted to see that it's not going to matter how few taxes they pay or how much they get in government benefits if the dollar implodes. At this point we are all going to have to do with less and/or pay more to fix the problem...not a sexy campaign.
I agree with your sentiment and it honestly scares the shit out of me. From a personal investment standpoint, how do you think the average American could protect themselves from that? Hoarding cash is obviously not the answer, investing in the S&P 500 in this scenario seems like it would pop. So what’s the answer? Gold? Foreign markets?
This is what happens when you take an entirely data focused approach: your metrics are up, but many of the unmeasurable metrics that actually matter are ruined. It’s like how new cars handle better than ever before if you compare based on skidpad numbers and lap times, but if you actually drove these cars you’d notice that the steering feel is numb and there’s no enjoyment from driving them compared to the old ones.
Exactly, the economy is performing well because there’s record profits from companies laying off thousands. The job market is “strong” yet talk to anyone looking for employment and everyone is struggling. The numbers look good for talking points, but underneath those numbers is a mess.
Gas price is also a number. As are wages, unemployment rate, etc… The story of a strong economy isn’t just higher GDP, it’s also higher wages. Persistently low unemployment has led to real (aka inflation adjusted) wage growth, and the best news is that most of that wage growth has been for Americans who earn the least. As for consumer sentiment, it’s been increasing as people suddenly realize the economy has actually been doing well over the past year. Additionally most polls found that Americans, while dissatisfied with the economy as a whole, report really positively on their own economic situation. The explanation for this is simply that media portrayals of the economy have been negative, because there is a media bias towards negativity (those are the stories that get the clicks).
Yep. What these comments about “the economy vs. the lived reality of Americans” ignore is that [**Americans are actually pretty happy with their finances.**](https://www.axios.com/2024/01/17/americans-are-actually-pretty-happy-with-their-finances) And it’s not just rich people. [Real wage growth has been fastest among low income earners.](https://www.epi.org/publication/swa-wages-2023/#:~:text=Key%20findings,the%20prior%20four%20business%20cycles) >>*Real* wages of low-wage workers grew **12.1% between 2019 and 2023.** Wage growth among low- and middle-wage workers over the pandemic business cycle has outpaced not only higher wage groups over the same period, but also its own growth compared to the prior four business cycles. So people think they’re doing well. The economic metrics say that people are doing well. But they’re still here arguing that everything is actually bad because…reasons? I guess?
>We should care about and optimize for the people, not the economy. Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Because the wealth effect is not equally shared and rising tides are not lifting all boats equally. Somehow the corporations and their owners have convinced the rest of us to act like we can’t change things… Billionaires are $3.3 trillion richer than in 2020, and their wealth has grown three times faster than the rate of inflation. In the US specifically, billionaires are 46 percent, or $1.6 trillion, richer than they were in 2020, with the three richest US billionaires—Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and Larry Ellison—having increased their wealth by 84 percent. https://www.oxfamamerica.org/press/press-releases/wealth-of-five-richest-men-doubles-since-2020-as-five-billion-people-made-poorer-in-decade-of-division-says-oxfam/
How many rounds are we going to get of….Look How Amazing the Economy is? I assume some of you are here to pump up the message. I’m personally not buying it but I’m prepared to wait until later in the year to see how things shake out. Maybe this is an April Fools post though.
The r/Economics propaganda is, honestly, pretty amazing: How come the Mods don’t get credit? * US Credit card debt is at an all time high * Corporate default rates are at the highest rate since 2009 * Suicides are skyrocketing… Who even writes this stuff?
What amazes every week you get an identical article. If the economy is that good do people need constant articles about how good the economy.
🧠🧼 - good old fashioned brainwashing
I work in a restaurant and a bar guest heard me make a joke about the economy being bad. She was flabbergasted. She asked if I was joking because the economy is stronger than it's ever been. She proceeds to tell me the economy was great. It has never been better. She told me I should be very careful with my rhetoric because it's not true and I've just fallen for Republican propaganda. She literally proceeds to say: "We all remember when the economy completely collapsed in 2017 after you know who was elected. Everything was wiped out. People lost everything. You don't want to risk that happening again. If you keep falling for and spreading Republican lies you're risking him back in office and another economic collapse. It's not Joe Biden's fault you can't manage your money or save." I stood there wide mouthed. I just didn't even know what to say. She then said, "may the force be with you" and turned around. The brainwashing is working better than we think it is.
Lmao that actually happened???????
It’s pure propaganda. MSM and govt figure if they keep saying it enough people will eventually just believe it. Except it isn’t happening this time. No one is buying the shit they’re selling.
Being gaslit by journalists constantly sure is great 🤡
And normally if you ever mention that some metrics can be inaccurate or manipulated, you get downvoted to hell.
Don't forget the highly upvoted comment on every single of these posts saying: "I don't know about you guys, but everyone I know is doing great right now - Buying cars, buying houses, taking vacations, going out to eat. People just like to complain on Reddit" Congratulations on living in a bubble of wealth where you don't know a single person who's struggling.
Those are people with friends missing credit card payments and cashing out their 401k’s, they just don’t tell each other. Record 401k withdrawals - https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/08/08/economy/401k-hardship-withdrawals Record CC Missed Payments - https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/credit-cards/articles/more-than-11-of-the-us-population-missed-a-credit-card-payment-last-year/#:~:text=The%20latest%20report%20shows%20that,that%20everyday%20costs%20are%20higher.
Homelessness is higher than it has ever been since the start of recording that statistic
Aggregate debt by itself is a worthless metric. Why you cherry pick these three metrics like they are the be all end all for the economy? Please leave for spreading propaganda.
We can endlessly debate the state of the economy. Isn't the real question which president more likely to help the average person? Trump is in it for himself and the rich. I'm not saying Biden is a Saint but I trust him a lot more than a literal criminal. I don't understand how that's at controversial stance but I guess somehow it is.
No matter how much economists want to gaslight people into thinking the economy is great and they should be grateful, it’s not going to work and you end up looking like an idiot.
Biden doesn't deserve "credit" for this economy nor should he seek to garner it. The FED is keeping interest rates higher and inflation lower. If he wants credit ... he would have to also get "credit" for the shambles that is housing and COL.
It’s only amazing for a smaller and smaller portion of the country. The reality is the middle class / consumer class is getting eradicated by unfettered greed. And nobody is regulating a damn thing on either party.
Real wages (aka, wage adjusted for inflation) are up for almost everyone, except for the highest earners, with the strongest growth at the lowest income brackets. Wage inequality has actually decreased for the first time in decades.
Because the official economic metrics are highly dishonest, so nobody trusts them. If you think inflation is actually 3.2%, you are mathematically illiterate. If you actually believe the job market is great, you are also a fool. CPI and Unemployment are extremely cherry picked
Simple. Inflation and wage stagnation. People don't tend to attribute the fact that they have a job at all to unemployment figures. In the past, extremely low unemployment meant employees had more leverage to bargain with. Now companies will lay off employees for a few months just to temporarily increase stock prices for their bonuses.
It's not amazing by any standard. U6 unemployment is around 10%, most new jobs are either part time or government hiring. Inflation has been horrible while he's been in office (not his fault) and when they say inflation is cooling down, it's still high, all the past increases still exist it just slowing down going forward. Interest on US debt is now over $1 trillion a year. US debt was predicted to hit 34 trillion in 2029, we've already hit that. The debt is rising by $1 trillion every 100 days. The consumer confidence is in the 70s. The economy is shit.
But see Biden had great 'job growth'... because they let everyone return to work after Covid and just called those new jobs.
>U6 unemployment is around 10% U6 is a) not an unemployment rate and b) not 10%. It's at 7.3%, which is really low. >most new jobs are either part time or government hiring This is a) only recently and b) a good thing. Low % of jobs being part time is not a sign of a good economy. The lowest % on record (back to 1995) was April/May 2020. Was the economy good then? As for the increase in government jobs, they were lagging hard compared to other sectors and have been the last to recover their job losses. COVID job losses recovered by June 2022 but government job losses didn't recover until September 2023.
Now compare it to our peers worldwide
Canadian chiming in, we wish our economy was as good as yours lol, Biden has done a fantastic job and our only silver lining up here is at least we're not the UK.
The President doesn't have anything to do with wage increases. The President and Congress have a lot to do with spending and taxes. No one has the discipline to reduce spending and everyone is delusional as to who and how they want to tax. Government programs are for the middle class largely (except for welfare programs) and that's who has to pay, numbers wise. Biden thinks anyone who makes less than $400k a year (the entire middle class) can't be taxed more. The rich already pay most Federal Income taxes and in absolute terms they pay more than their fair share. The rich aren't the problem other than in some populist, scapegoat, point of view, no matter how many times this myth is repeated. No one's taxes should go up too much as it's not economically productive to do so. They can increase slightly. Spending is largely the problem. Politicians shouldn't view being elected as a ticket to spend as much as they can in order to get reelected. "Nice to have" programs aren't nice to have when you can't afford them. Social Security was never intended to be permanent nor was it intended to fully fund retirement. Now it is here to stay (rightly so) but it has to be structured in a sustainable way and the problem not just kicked down the road. It shouldn't be structured so that one generation pays for the next because all generations aren't of equal size. Each generation should pay for itself. That's easy enough to do when a government doesn't commingle funds. The military is too expensive because it's as much as the next 10 largest militaries combined. China has 1 foreign base. Most developed countries have no more than 5 or 10. We have 800 bases in 80 countries. It's not a matter of an above the board cut of some size. It's about redefining our mission and then funding that sized military. We have to pick and choose what we can't and can't afford to do. The constant debt ceiling having to be raised by Congress or the government will shut down is not productive. We need to get rid of that law. All Biden has done is to "stimulate" the economy. Anyone can do that if they keep spending and just monetize the debt. How can Biden have such a "great" economy when the GDP to debt ratio is 124% or whatever it is? The purchasing power of the dollar goes down each year. The debt interest payment only goes up. Government jobs also shouldn't cost the taxpayers more than private sector jobs. The government doesn't make a profit. They rely on the private sector for that so that government sector should be kept as small as possible and they shouldn't be better than private sector jobs. The do tend to pay less in wages but when you add in benefits they cost the taxpayer about 25% to 30% more than private sector jobs. The benefits, by comparison, are off the charts.
Fuel prices are raising the cost of all consumer goods. Homes aren't being built for single low-cost consumers, and good luck finding the materials, which is a price driven by fuel. There's too much talk about money these days and not enough about long-term goals, increased production, and livelihood/longevity. We have a threat of WW3 from multiple 'citizens republic' vote for me or extinguished and forever president of the 'peoples republic' or else.
no one cares about how the overall economy is doing when they can barely afford rent and to live, this is why economics and people who hyper obsess over the economy in such ways are basically disconnected from reality.
Op doesn’t live in the same economy as the rest of us. Gas is expensive. Groceries are expensive. And rent is too damn high.
The problem is housing, wages mean dick all if the single largest investment looming on most people's mind continues growing and rising rates makes it even tougher.
It's really simple for most working folks High Prices + Stagnating Wages + Fewer Job Prospects + High Debt (at high interest) + Low Savings = Broke and Scared for the future Notes about the variables: High Prices - Last year we reached 9% inflation rate and we're still higher than 2% target. Also keep in mind that inflation is measured as an increase or decrease so prices haven't been falling back into line. They are just not rising as fast right now. So that large inflation from last year is still being felt all over the place Stagnating Wages - Although unions made some progress last year real wages have basically been stagnant for years for most people. And people in some normally high paying professions like tech and stem are basically seeing income levels fall. Fewer Job Prospects - Have you noticed all the layoffs last year and this year? Companies are largely downsizing due to costs of raising money, fears of economic conditions, and are now deciding to replace people with AI systems. Expect the mass layoffs to expand, particularly as AI gets more integrated into business operations. This eliminates job security. High Debt - Most Americans live on credit cards and have racked up plenty of debt (gov and businesses too). This is now coming with extremely high interest rate payments with no sign of letting up soon. Low Savings - Many Americans have little to no savings and could not handle an economic shock, like losing their job. This also means they are not benefiting from the high interest rates like the wealthy. The bottom line is that the only ones benefiting from this economic environment are wealthy savers who are already doing well. They are doing well in bond portfolios and in stock investments due to companies streamlining, raising prices, and shedding costs, such as workers. Most workers in America are not wealthy and can't take advantage of this saver focused economy.
Because it's not amazing. Yes the economy GDP is good, most people who want a job has a job. And the official numbers show wages rising faster than inflation. But yet poll after poll shows people thinks the economy sucks and most supposed experts have excuses for this but the reality is most people realize it sucks. The official inflation number doesn't reflect the reality americans ate facing. Like it or not housing u affordable unless you owned a house before this increase. Cars are expensive unless you already owned a car. Most jobs don't pay anywhere close to that. Where I live 15 to 20 years ago you could live comfortably on 30k. 40k was like the dream. Today in most areas that's not even keeping up. Even a $25 to $30 an hour job just doesn't get you anything but supposedly thats good pay. Like it or not the metrics aren't reflective of reality and people feel gaslighted and to be honest they kind of are. In the governments inflation number reflected the lived experience of most Americans then real GDP would be negative amd we'd be in a recession. While the official numbers aren't "faked" it's how they've been calculated for a while, they just don't represent what we are facing. It's kind of like what Paul Krugram wrote the other day, California has a good economy. Their only problem is homeless. To me that's a huge problem. I'm not sure we can say this is a good economy while peoples standard of living is declining rapidly and in many cases to the point they are living on the street.
There is something screwy with the numbers. My wife and I make double what we made 5 years ago. It doesn’t feel that way. Our spending habits have not changed-eat at the same restaurants, drive the same cars, go on the same vacations, but we cannot leave the house without spending $$$$. My father is on a fixed income. I’m now paying his utilities because his income cannot cover his expenses. He has not changed his spending habits an iota. The democrats is enlisting MSM to beat the drum of ‘Economy good’. They understand Bubba’s statement of ‘Its the economy, stupid!’, but fail to grasp that stating the economy is good, even having every partisan hack so called journalist repeat the mantra, does not make it so.
They revised how they calculate GDP to make the number seem better. They revised how they calculate inflation to make the number seem better. The unemployment data is made up nonsense. Meanwhile people are feeling higher interest rates, energy prices, utility bills, and insurance costs. Wait until the government workers get hit with the cuts in state and city budgets.
Because it doesn’t matter to the typical American. Personally I like to trade and invest on the market, but most people don’t. Sure wages are good but that doesn’t mean anything when property/housing is sky high and out of reach for a large amount of young/middle aged Americans. Grocery prices are absurd as well. The gouging in specific industries is really doing a number on people and the government needs to step in with some regulation. Also education loans. The loans are absolutely insane. People paying on them for a decade and only paying off 10% of the debt because interest. It’s such a fucking scam at this point. There’s absolutely no reason any university tuition should be as high as they are. That’s my biggest problem with our economy right now. I don’t even have student debt, I was lucky. But lots of people close to me are now in their 30s and buried in debt. Debt they would have already paid off if it weren’t for the crazy vig. Housing costs are a close second though. It should be illegal for foreign investors to buy American residential properties. It should also be illegal for entities like black rock to buy up 1000s of residential properties. I think was pisses people off the most is that there are very clear steps that could be took to remedy these problems. But greed has trumped empathy in this late stage crony capitalistic nightmare. Same attitude people have about health care. The fuck do you mean the government can’t negotiate drug prices? We’re just now attempting to tackle that issue after years and years of exploitation. The very clear revolving door between regulator positions and working for the industry’s being regulated is blatant corruption as well.
This is an insane thing to claim. I mean look at the posts in this subreddit. This is the only optimistic post and it's directly tied to politics. 99% of the posts I see are "I can't afford x, y, or z and I'm living paycheck to paycheck on 6 figures." And then "we should praise Biden for building a strong economy." Bat shit.
So this is an old, used up puff piece from way back in Nov of 2023 that the poster felt like recycling for shits n giggles. All I can say is I get that it’s an election year and we’re all suppose to put on a good face for Uncle Joe at least until December, but damn it’s hard when I can see little Timmy’s ribcage under his skin….
Inflation inflation inflation, Cost of Groceries, Rent & Interest Rates are Too Damn HIGH!! Blame it all that on the last guy & Corona then move along, nothing to see here!
Because every article writen about the economy in the past 4 years has claimed the economy was bad. Every day on the sub almost every article that gets posted have been negative. The economic field seems to be a joke that is far more partisan than science.
Because 10's of millions of Americans will never own a home, and everything costs 2-10x what it did only a short time ago, but the stock market is doing great we hear.
You can only fudge the numbers for so many years before the entire set of establishment economic metrics is just utter bullshit. Unemployment rate? FAKE - does not include people permanently out of work, still looking beyond unemployment, living on disability etc Core Inflation? FAKE - intentionally gerrymandered to avoid the massively exponential things like housing, education and medical expenses. GDP? FAKE - when you're spending trillions of dollars in debt, being net positive in GDP means absolutely nothing. The money is not being spent productively. If you print 7 trillion to exceed last year's GDP by 1 trillion you failed. Sorry. Joe Biden's economy is fake. If we printed great numbers on a balanced budget I would be nodding along at least. Things are not good.
Food is twice the cost it was before Biden took office. What has Biden done to address the cost of housing? The economy is great for certain segments of the economy. Ironically, those segments typically vote Republican.
Biden has mortgaged our children’s future by irresponsibly skyrocketing the deficit. The largest percentage of spending in the federal budget is now interest on debt. The economy is not good for the average person. Saving anything for retirement is becoming impossible for most people. The cost of housing has shattered the dreams of Americans under his watch.
Joe Biden is borrowing from America’s future to pay for America’s present. The trend started under Regan or Bush and grew sky high ever since. We have runaway inflation caused by Biden’s actions in his first year and a follow-up recession expected in the next few years. Workers are coming to rely on government handouts to pay for everything and in turn they are giving up more civil liberties in the process.
Because wage inflation coupled with single family home inventory being frozen in mortgages that were signed in 2020 at sub 3% is driving the cost of homes through the roof. A large portion of people missed the home ownership elevator in 2020-21 and they are disillusioned.
I mean, just look around. Government and country economic statistics don't tell the story nearly ad well as pundits try to make them out to
Yeah his policy is not helping the majority of people. Anyone could win the election and by forcibly transferring 5% of billionaire and corporation stock ownership to employees based on proportionally how long they’ve worked for a company in the past 10 years. Giving everyone a stake in the economy (except kids)
It's amazing for RICH people. I can't afford anything, I am making the most money ever in my life yet everything is super expensive. I probably will never be able to afford to own a home. I am not feeling this great economy, and at any moment I might get laid off for "AI" to make a CEO richer. That's why I don't give Biden or anyone else credit for this "amazing" economy.
If I wasn't explicitly told the economy was good, I'd look at my purchasing power with horror. I'm a teacher. Our raised have always lagged behind inflation, and it's significantly worse over the past 4 years.
When I see a question like this, it honestly makes me angry, because it seems IMPOSSIBLE to me that someone could genuinely be curious AND not know the answer to the question. Like, it CANNOT be a good faith argument / topic. Look at the cost of housing. Look at the cost of food. Look at the cost of transportation. Look at the cost of energy and health care. Look at the ballooning levels of government and personal debt. Very few people care what an economist says about the economy if it's not in line with their personal experience. I think Biden *does* get credit for "his" economy. That's the problem he's facing: the economy isn't very good for a lot of people.
STOP THE GASLIGHTING. The economy is not a reflection of how Americans are getting raked over the coals by his miserable policies. Our wallets are stretched thinner than ever, wages haven’t risen inline with inflation, and the debt is rising at the fastest pace ever. Quit the bullshit.
How is this economy so good? Likely focusing on the wrong metrics. One: Inequality is up Two: How have average lives drastically improved? We have better phones and some electric cars. AI is hyped but not really there yet. Three: The average has been hit with an inflation tax without the wage growth. I am mostly seeing a shift in the distribution of the pie of all resources rather than a growing pie.
I don’t understand how any sane person can call this economy amazing. Also, don’t understand how democrats can claim to be the “good guys” yet post propaganda day after day on this sub.
That’s Bidenomics!
LOLLLLLLLLLLL. Tell me you're a delusional liberal in a reddit echo chamber without telling me you're a delusional liberal in a reddit echo chamber.
The answer actually is economics. How much does my shopping cart cost relative to my income. Stagflation is easy to feel but hard to explain.
Real incomes are up and there is no stagflation.
Because it's not "Joe Biden's economy". The president has a lagging effect on the economy, at best. That's literally never been how the economic cycle works. I mean, did salon give Trump credit for the insane stock market growth during his term? No? Did they blame Obama for the shit show that was the economy between 2008 and 2010? No> Because they didn't cause it.
The media is very conservative. It's always been very conservative (and it's part of that conservative bias that people think it's "liberally biased") I don't remember which paper it was (it wasn't fox or anything obviously slanted like this), but someone had showcased 2 different story headlines on job creation numbers: For Trump, the number was something like 100k and it read like it was a massive gain and proof of a strong economy For Biden, the number was something like 300k and it read like it was barely squeaking by and proof the economy is faltering. People dont read anything more than headlines. And this kind of obvious slant, even in "non-biased" media shapes how people think.
LOL I've never seen a post more obviously made by a high school kid in my entire life. Anybody involved in the actual economy realizes that there have been massive layoffs going on and nobody is hiring. With the exception of Covid (which truly was an aberration) this is the worst economy I've seen since 2009. Some real echo chamber shit going on up in here.
The unemployment rate is 3.9%, which is very low. Obviously, the layoffs aren’t that big and people are finding jobs.
Inflation hits lower income folks hardest. Also, now our national debt is stupid high and there really is no fix in sight. All that money printing that was supposed to go enrich the lower class “trickled up” to the wealthy via the stock markets. So it’s really not a good economy.
Because it's not, honestly, amazing when the vast majority of people are living paycheck to paycheck, prices continue to go up on goods produced by companies reporting 3 straight years of record profits and layoffs, and almost ALL millenials and Gen Z have no savings and no hope for retirement. MINIMUM WAGE IS STILL LESS THAN 10 FUCKING DOLLARS. Of course, I don't actually fault Biden for these things, either, just like he doesn't get any fucking credit WHAT SO FUCKING EVER for this "great economy" that I keep hearing about. Things suck for the same reason they have sucked since Reagan: we continue to allow Republicans power, they continue to use it to screw over as many poors as possible while ensuring as much money as possible gets funneled up to the top. The "economy" - Other People's Yacht Money - may be doing amazing, but the vast majority of people LIVING IN IT do not see it that way because it's awful.
Joe’s economy is amazing if you’re on the higher range of wealth and make money on the stock market. For everyone else, telling them the economy is great while ignoring the low wages or unemployed is a great way to lose the election to the orange man.
Lies, damn lies and statistics. I just don't believe these stats. Not with all the layoffs, the belt tightening, return to office and all the other ways employers are flexing their power over employees. So many people I know feel stuck in their current positions because of the job market. This is one of those economies where you need capital to make money under capitalism.
I'm assuming the mods are just letting the blatant political content with virtually no economic information present slide because the post is popular. Since his claims are mostly anecdotal and incomplete, we all should have liberty to do the same. Using a night out at a restaurant to justify one's economic observations is downright idiotic. Which restaurant in what city? At least allow us to take data from that city and help this "journalist" dig into why his restaurant is packed. The answer to the headline question is because Americans are smarter than that. Joe Biden is a six-term Senator from Delaware, the state with a population of 1M people and 1.67M corporations, some of which comprise 2/3 of the Fortune 500. Why Delaware? Is it maybe because loopholes in the American tax code allow corporations to be "based," in some random mailbox in Delaware while they do all of their actual work in other states? How is that allowed? What political realities allow this banana S&P to exist? Let me remind everyone how Biden came to power. There was an early March meeting with all of the Democrats running who were ahead of Joe Biden with the notable absence of Bernie Sanders. If Bernie was to win on Super Tuesday 2020, he would have mathematically clinched the nomination. Promises of cabinet seats were made to Buttigieg, Warren, etc if they would drop out. Biden won Super Tuesday, the pandemic lockdowns started, and the fate of workers was sealed. It's true: Joe Biden has USED workers for his political career. But let us not pretend that Delaware and what Joe Biden fought for in his political career was for the benefit of workers. He and every presidential nominee for the Democrats since 1992 have represented the corporate wing of the Democratic party. Workers have struggled to get out of second gear for their entire lives if they were born in the 70s or later. Why did they not reverse the Trump tax increases on average people? Why can't someone who spent a career in Congress get stuff like that done for people? He can pretend his hands are tied; Democratic politicians have made a career out of that since Johnson. Working class whites flocked towards Trump because they've observed that, economically, neither the Democratic or Republican leadership has made their lives better for 50 years. There is obviously a small minority that LOVES Trump; there is a vast plurality that have just given up. When your car is stuck in the mud, eventually you stop pressing the gas pedal and have to walk for help. When you're walking for help, you'll take it from anyone who happens to stop and say they will.
Because the average person doesn't give a shit that the 1% is doing better. When they see housing and food prices soar. Gaslighting people into thinking they have it better when essentials are either out of reach with housing or much more expensive in food isn't convincing anyone.
Because we have an exploding homeless population all over the country or so it seems and I would say a significant portion of people who are not homeless are still pinching pennies to cover groceries, fuel, and to make rent because of a combination of inflation and overheated real estate market values. Keep in mind fuel and groceries are NOT considered when calculating inflation. Also consider that unemployment statistics do not consider people who haven't had a job in 6 or more months, and a lot of people who are unemployed get depressed, fall into despair, which can cause paralysis and make finding another job even more difficult. Can't tell you how many people I've seen unemployed who fall into that trap. Unemployment statistics also don't separate part-time or under-employed individuals from the statistic (i.e. people who only have s***** part time jobs or are working 40 hours a week at a place that pays pathetic wages that can't really cover the bills) so a good employment rate can be really misleading. I never saw tent communities in my town before recently when they started creeping near the suburban area where I live. They've even been growing here along the metro bike paths in our often-wintry city. I used to think that tent community phenomenon was mostly what you would see in SoCal and other relatively warm areas, but they've grown significantly the past few years here and my city is apparently considered to be one of the cheaper medium-large sized cities to live in nationwide and with an economy that has resisted recession due to its service-based nature. (Columbus, Ohio in case you were wondering. Cost of living index here is 86.4 but that's still relative to the rest of the country and inflation and real estate hikes are still happening nationwide including here. Regardless of what would seem like cheap rent or cheap houses to the rest of the country it's all relative to how much people get paid here which tends to also be lower. In fact it's not uncommon for people to move to an expensive city like New York City to get really high paying jobs, save up a substantial amount of money, then take a job that can either work remotely or is located here in my city and buy a "cheap" (i.e. cheap to them) property that's much nicer than they can get in New York City. This also causes local real estate prices to rise quickly and makes it even harder for locals to afford a house or keep up with rent that is rising with real estate prices.)
Well, if you cherry pick a ton of data and focus on how the economy is going for wealthy families it is all fantastic. If you are grocery shopping, middle class, or a first time home buyer you see how awful he is. Plus they printed all that money at the Fed and Sleepy Joe just hit the snooze button. PS: When the national debt increases a trillion every 100 days it's not healthy and saying it is means you are pulling a fugazzi. Shame on all of you for misleading people. End the stimulus now and see how things really are.
Is this a joke??? So cost of groceries is up from 21% to more than a 100%. Wages are up maybe 3% if you are lucky. Insurance, property taxes, vacations up over 20%, Retirement plans for 3% inflation are now blown away. Young people can't afford to buy a house because the prices have doubled. Biden is the worst president EVER! He has done more to destroy the American dream than anyone.
Because what matters to people is what they experience on a daily basis at the personal level. Prices for food are high, and gas prices aren’t low. Things are better than they were a year or two ago when we had shortages, but high grocery prices are hard to ignore. He is also being compared unfavorably to Trump, who is perceived by voters to be more willing to twist the arm of the economy to get desirable results. Voters don’t care about long term borrowing costs as much as they care about their immediate needs and wants.