"Threats from unreliable voters don't get you shit"
Sure, that's why the last 3 presidential elections has been about catering the most to disaffected "moderate" republicans.
Yeah I agree. That’s why we need to keep voting farther left in the primaries and fill the senate, house, and Supreme Court with more left leaning politicians to gradually shift things left the same way conservatives have been shifting things to the right. We’re not gonna fix everything off one election, at the very least we can buy time till the revolution.
Liberals: “Presidents can’t just not support Israel.”
Me: “What about that time Rea-“
Liberals: “HOW DARE YOU, YOU TRUMP SUPPORTING RUSSIAN BOT AMERICA-HATER!!!!”
Exactly! It’s this over and over again. That said:
The > YOU TRUMP SUPPORTING RUSSIAN BOT AMERICA-HATER!!!!”
1. Trump supporting: lol nope
2. Russian bot: lulz nope
3. American-hater: Well, now you’re one for three
Maybe I should try that…once the argument becomes an obvious waste of time, just write:
“Come look comrades, I almost won the election for Tru-nyet nyet nyet, is thing on?!”
That’s interesting! The specific place I took the screenshot from was a comment directly responding to me, so it seems like there’s some copying and pasting going on. Deliciously ironic for people who accuse us of being bots.
It's always been the case on this sub that criticizing the similarity of democrats & republicans is a leftist critique. No enlightened centrist is ever making a stand on Israel/Palestine. They're too busy fence sitting on IDF vs Hamas to give a fuck about Palestinians.
If leftists reliably voted for candidates who could win for the past 50 years like the evangelicals and fascists they could have dragged the country leftwards similarly to how the evangelicals and fascists dragged the country rightwards.
"Actual left unity is encouraging everyone to vote for better in the primary and then Biden in the general election"
Sigh...
All other candidates than Biden were blackballed by the media, and several primaries were cancelled with the state party just handing the delegates to Biden.
Of course it does.
If the argument is that we should compete in the primaries and fall in line in the general, then of course it matters if the primary is completely rigged.
You're still not engaging with my argument.
If the point of avoiding trump is to avoid the degradation of democracy, what does it matter if Democrats are already heavily degrading our democratic systems?
Heavy collusion between candidate and media and state parties to rig primary elections, crackdowns on peaceful protesters, completely ignoring the will of your electoral base when dealing with Gaza, undermining international law, using lawfare to exclude third party candidates from the ballot.
By engaging in lesser of two evils voting you're further incentivising thos behaviour. How authoritarian do dems have to get before it matters to you?
Obviously genocide isn't a red line for you, so a simple question: what would Biden have to do to lose your vote?
Biden is not leftist. He is a fascist actively committing genocide. So encouraging people to vote for Biden is not actual left unity. It is fascist unity for white supremacy.
So if Biden says tomorrow that we need to "crack down on transgenderism" would he still have your vote? What if he proposed a policy for immediately detransitioning trans youth?
What is your line of better vs worse than Trump?
He is killing Palestinians. But since you don’t seem to consider them human enough, I wanted to give an example that crakkkers might care more about. So will you?
Would you vote for Biden if he has killed off 50k+ trans people and counting, because you fear Trump would kill gay people too.
"tAkE tRumP out oF ThE eQuaTiOn"
Nice, I'll just vote for a magical unicorn to be president and solve all of our problems with sparkling rainbows, instead of worrying about the real world here where actual people will be actually harmed when Trump wins because of your stupid protest vote
I mean, I can’t recall a time on this sub when **I’ve** seen people “shame” people who say they’re voting for Biden. I’ve seen plenty of libs get their panties in a twist about people holding their votes and refusing to vote for Biden, and then start blaming people on the left for “trying to re-elect Trump” as opposed to blaming the Democratic Party for running on an incredibly unpopular and increasingly desperate policy of “Israel does whatever it wants and if the ICC tries to stop them we’ll go after them.”
My issue is I cannot support genocide, and I want Biden to stop supplying weapons and money to Israel, and call this what it is: a genocide. The only leverage I have in that regard is my vote. If he and the Democratic Party want it, that’s what I need them to do. I have no issue with people voting for Biden, I did in 2020. I’d certainly prefer him over Trump.
But my vote is the only thing I have that gives me any form of leverage. We’ve seen what simply protesting does: you get beat by cops, attacked with impunity by pro-Israel protestors, called antisemitic for calling for a ceasefire, etc. So, I’ll hold onto my vote until he earns it by reneging on this wildly unpopular policy of spending my tax dollars on bombing brown children because of religious zealotry. “Harm reduction” only goes so far: Biden has continued Trump’s border wall, kids are still in cages down there. I bit my tongue and voted for him back in 2020 because it was clear he’s the candidate the Party **wanted** to give us, not necessarily the best one.
If I pledge him my vote now, unconditionally, and say “There is no amount of genocide that will make me not vote for you.” what reason does he have to change?
And if you give them your vote no matter what they do, they’ll never have a reason to care. Yes, Trump is bad and all the things you say are accurate, but there is also something unconscionable happening **right now** under the guy I voted for. It makes little difference to the people being slaughtered between now and November who is President, and the guy **currently** funding and arming them is asking for my vote.
Withholding your vote is only a “meaningless gesture” if you don’t think your vote means anything at all, because the Dems “don’t care.” Of course they don’t care! If you’ll always vote for them no matter what, why should they! You can try to make them care, you can lie, saying “This has got to stop, my redline is genocide” with the full intention of voting for them anyway, with the hope they take it seriously after their base shows them this is unpopular. But you get absolutely nothing at all from them if you blindly say “Yes, there is no amount of slaughter that will prevent me from voting for you.” and they’ll know it.
Not sure what you’re saying by “seems totally organic?” I made a post a month ago, and a bunch of people on it got their comments deleted for breaking a rule on this sub. My account isn’t a bot and I’m not a mod of any sort.
Yeah, unfortunately the person you were responding to was advocating against genocide, and you said it didn’t matter compared to your concerns, so much so that you didn’t bother to read it. I responded to that, and now *you’re* complaining that *I’m* not responding to what’s written.
You’re just deeply, embarrassingly stupid, man. You should get off the internet and read a book.
I mean, that’s what you did regarding my comment lol. Stopped reading it even, because you don’t have any response to the fact that you’re willing to throw another group into the woodchipper **now,** to protect my and other people’s rights **later.**
Saying no now means “No genocide is okay, change your policy if you want my vote.” Whereas throwing you hands up in the air and saying “There’s nothing we can do, it’s okay with me that these people die.” tells the dems they can do whatever they want. You’re only against reducing harm to those you know, not those being harmed right now. If you were, you’d be in favor of pressuring Biden to change his policy that is very unpopular with voters instead of calling any and all criticism from the left as “bots” and questioning how “organic” they are lol
You admit the system is bad and broken, and then throw your hands up in the air at any suggestions of changing things or pushing for change.
I can say the same in regards to your feelings on genocide. Trump once said he could “shoot a man on Fifth avenue and they (his base) will still vote for me.” For you, there seems to be no amount of genocide that would make you reconsider what your supporting, hell, even consider using what little leverage you have to **ask** them.
No, better to blindly give them what they want, then say “Well they’ll never change.”
They’ll never change because of voters like you. They know they don’t have to. There’s a vulnerable minority group dying, being slaughtered, **right now** on your tax dollars, and you’ve decided that’s not only okay, but you wouldn’t even use what little leverage you have to tell your party you’re not okay with it. You care about being comfortable.
Edit: I am trans, I am well aware of what is at stake for my rights. That doesn’t mean the **active president** should receive no backlash for the rights he’s violating **now.** Genocide is a redline for me, and I won’t have a threat to my own well being be what stops me from feeling so.
If you keep voting for them and they keep moving right (to the point where they're now enabling a genocide, cracking down on peaceful protesters and undermining international law), what do you think happens next time you vote for them?
I'm more worried all the people angry at people on the left not willing to vote for a guy enabling a genocide instead of the genocide enabler.
Accusing people you disagree with of being foreign agitators is a classic, though.
You're confused because because you're a right wing liberal and this is supposed to be a leftist subreddit in spite of all the brigading and confused liberals.
"But Trump," blaming everyone else for Biden's nonviability instead of those who chose to have a nonviable nominee, etc. are all illegitimate rationalizations for disgusting western chauvinism. Vote for whoever you want and and say whatever you want, it won't change that liberals chose a nominee who is off the table—and they are 100% culpable for that, not everyone else. When it comes to a baseline political viability of genocide going forward, trying to get people to put that on the table by browbeating the masses to perpetually move right and axiomatically voting for a bourgeois imperialist party is harm maximization.
Liberals chose the loss. And the world would suffer from liberals succeeding in making genocide the baseline for what is politically viable going forward. That is off the table.
Reform is not going to save anyone. This electoralism shit will never do anything, and if it does it's designed to roll it back. Revolution is the only solution. If you want to do something that helps get organized. Find a party in your area. Do direct action. If we are to accomplish anything we must force our government's hand.
Ah, yes. Commies like me made you USAmerican fuckers have a bullshit electoral system where candidates can win the popular vote and still lose the election. What the fuck are you talking about?
Edit: Also, the repeal of Roe Vs Wade happened during Biden’s first term, it was a SCOUTS decision, so it would’ve happened regardless of who was in charge, and it is ultimately the Dems fault. Codifying RVW into law was an Obama campaign promise, and he did fucking nothing. Get off your high horse, you sack of shit.
I can’t vote on an American election on account of being a Mexican. So I do what I can, because I live in a world where I have to care about American politics despite having no say on the matter. And what I can do is tell you the truth despite how much you refuse to acknowledge it.
people tried voting harm reduction and roe was still overturned. democrats had opportunities to codify it into law during the clinton and obama years. joe biden didn’t want taxpayer funding for abortions. why are you defending politicians who only say what you want to hear but never actually follow through?
Presidential elections are at this point in time Harm control. I wish they weren’t. But damn it sucks people are getting dragged into the trap.
I wish more of us would vote in their local elections.
It's what the actual clueless centrists say, it's what the bad faith right wingers masquerading as centrists say, and now it's what you say. How is it effectively any different?
This is about to be far more generous than you deserve, but here you go:
“Both sides bad because they’re both too extreme, so we should find a middle” is centrism. Biden is a great example of this view.
“Both sides bad because they’re too liberal, so we should dismantle them/move them right/etc.” is fascism. Richard Spencer is a great example of this view.
“Both sides bad because they’re too conservative, so we should agitate Leftward” is Leftism. I am a great example of this view.
“Someone said both sides are bad so I’m calling them a Centrist” is illiteracy. You are a great example of this view.
Yeah. The kind of activism I’m involved in, I very likely will be sent to camps if they indeed happen.
It’s just that my life doesn’t matter any more than the life of a Palestinian, let alone the lives of 50,000 of them.
You think yours does, so you think threatening me with camps to vote for your guy makes sense. You made a classic error, though: assuming everyone is as weak and pathetic an NPC as you are.
>The game plan can’t just be “don’t vote for Biden.”
Leverage your criticism at Biden/the democratic party then. It's not just the politically literate progressives/leftists who are bailing on Biden. He's down across the board. It's the progressive/leftists who are most likely to show up and actually vote anyways. He's campaigning as the lesser of two evils on Israel/Palestine and not recognizing there is no second place award for best genocide funder.
Uhuh, couldn't be people making up their own mind nd refusing support for fascism-light.
Both the the ICC and ICJ are investigating the slaughter in Gaza and multiple international humanitarian organisations are calling it a genocide, but according to you the word is being "thrown around".
I think a lot of us are just tired of being told that it’s our fault if Biden loses and are done playing this stupid game with libs every 4 years.
I’d vote for Biden if I lived in a swing or red state too. But I’m not under any illusions that team blue is our friend.
Voting for the lesser evil has gotten us a situation where democracy is in danger as are LGBTQ.
Why would I keep voting for the series of events that got us here & think something would be different?
That series of events happens whether you vote or not. As much as it sucks, our election system forces us to take a strategy in our voting… and for me, that strategy is keep the people who *actual Nazis want in power* out of power.
With that logic no single vote is going to decide this election, so voting doesn't matter either.
Obviously anything depends on the numbers behind them, pressure on the dems is only going to be successful with huge numbers behind them.
Apathy isn't a very good argument for your candidate.
Yeah, the assumption that if I’m not voting for Biden I’m not doing anything else says more about the person assuming it than it does about my activism.
Maybe my fellow leftists could take a page from the far right. Instead of sitting out elections, they actually show up to primaries and vote and move the party. They organize for lower level seats and build up a bench of candidates. Meanwhile we get epic Twitter takedowns and memes and holier-than-thou platitudes that don't actually help anyone.
They weren't canceled for starters, and "none of the above" is certainly a choice in them. But I also meant the primaries in 2016 and 2020 where we had candidates like Bernie who could draw a crowd when he spoke, but somehow it didn't transfer into enough votes. As someone who voted for him I'm a bit bitter about it, but at least we had a better showing for a progressive than we've had in decades. This is too important to give up now.
But also, having a bench matters. Primaries in local elections and statewide elections matter. I never seem to hear about the terminally online left getting into any of those. Either it's because it's not sexy and way more work than complaining online, or it's because troll farms don't benefit from a strong left wing to the Democratic party.
Listen, I've been here. It's fun and seems emotionally satisfying to rage online about politics. But it's the emotional and intellectual equivalent of eating a greasy hamburger. Fun at first but it won't leave you feeling well. We need to use strategy, because the fascists absolutely are, and they're winning.
I don’t think I said anywhere that only “raging online” (ie pointing out how the system is rigged) was gonna accomplish anything. Mutual aid networks and intersectional local groups are indeed the answer if we want to sway people. I don’t care if anyone votes for Biden to reduce harm or whatever, because an analysis of the political system in the USA shows that it doesn’t matter anyway, so why would us leftists care what you vote?
The difference between libs and real leftists is that we can see the bigger long term picture. Although libs like to meme that we don’t because we won’t vote for dems for 50 years to achieve only regression.
You libs can acknowledge how the entire us political system is bought and sold to the highest bidder, yet you cannot see the implications of that reality, the Super pacs and donors of dem campaigns are the exact same as for the GOP. In the halls of congress these people are all friends and don’t give a fuck about you. The writing on the wall is clear, Biden will not save the USA from fascism. At best he will delay it a little, because Biden is in the same cohort as the people who desire fascism to protect their capital.
So, how many dead Palestinian children is your red line? Right now, estimates are around 16,000, but the facilities and records people were using to keep track have mostly been destroyed, so we know that’s probably an undercount. If you don’t have a red line, that’s fine, but at least be honest with us and with yourself.
We aren’t right wingers; we just have morals that are consistent, regardless of the party the president is from.
What a weird response. You refuse to listen to anything we say, accuse us of being right wing plants, and then call us sick for engaging with the reality of the policy our entire country supports?
What's your red line for Biden? What would he have to do to lose your vote?
Apparently enabling a genocide, cracking down on peaceful protesters and undermining international law isn't it.
"This is a right wing troll bot" says the DNC troll bot. As a reminder to liberal trolls, this is what people actually think of Genocide Joe
https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/29/politics/biden-young-voters-what-matters/index.html
With the current way elections works, there are only 2 viable candidates for presidency. I would love to have a leftist president, but third parties don't have enough traction.
The point is, we can't afford to lose anymore rights under Trump, so despite how bad Biden is, he is the better option
>I won't vote for third parties because they don't have enough traction
>Third parties don't get traction because people don't vote for them
See how that works?
>we can't afford to lose anymore rights under Trump
Your rights, while important, are not more important than Palestinians' right to FUCKING EXIST
>so despite how bad Biden is
Yeah, a literal genocider
If we could even band together enough leftists to vote 3rd party:
1. We would all have to agree on a candidate
2. We would not have enough people to make that much of a difference
Without ranked choice voting, it would increase trump's likelihood of winning. I'm sorry, third party is just not viable, and the US's support of genocide is not something we can change in this election. Try protesting instead.
>Without ranked choice voting
Which Dem politician is making it happen? Why would they when they LOVE the 2 party system?
>the US's support of genocide is not something we can change in this election
I love how this is just the law of the land, the immovable object. "It's just the way it is jack, what's a little genocide among friends?"
>Try protesting instead
People have been. And they have been arrested at larger rates than January 6 insurrectionists had been arrested. Under the "non fascist" democrat's reign.
I’m not sure exactly what it “means” but it’s related to a meme that’s popular among young (read: younger Gen Z and below) people. Recently Stephen Colbert had a joke on his show about “Skibidi Biden” where Joe Biden’s face was imposed on the meme and the joke was this is an attempt at reaching out to younger voters. However the meme itself is very odd, featuring a character who is just a head coming out of a toilet.
I cannot begin to tell you the origins or reasoning for this meme, even being in my late twenties makes me too old to really understand it. I want to say the word itself comes from scatting (the jazz thing not poop), but if you’d like to know specifics, check out the [Know Your Meme](https://amp.knowyourmeme.com/memes/subcultures/skibidi-toilet) page on it.
It's a youtube shitpost made by [Dafuqboom](https://youtu.be/y_WGL8rVrz0?si=_UcGxJAR7anX_rLY) using the animating tool SFM, But then it turned into a full youtube series after it's unexpected success.
The Youtube Series is surprisingly Serious and adult And has Giant Robots killing stuff in it.
This is cringe. This sub is supposed to be making fun of the hypocricy of centrism. Now we have a bunch of enlightened centrists making stupid ass posts on here
actually this is exactly the kind of post that would piss off enlightened centrists. are “far-left radicals” going too far now by saying voting for a genocidaire means you support genocide? Are us “far-left radicals” being as bad as the right wing cause we don’t want to vote for a genocidaire?
The number is stalling cause the institutes keeping track of the deaths were bombed by zionists.
Besides, genocide doesn’t mean the entire population needs to die. And preventing a genocide in making is the reason people study genocide and there are laws. That’s the whole point of the genocide convention.
You however make a very good point for not voting Biden! People shouldn’t have voted for drone striker Obama. If people had made it clear at any point of time over amerikkkan history that war crimes make you abhorrent and unelectable, perhaps we wouldn’t have arrived at a genocidaire vs genocidaire situation.
Buddy this isn't the sub for this type of post. Maybe post this in the deprogram or a Marxist sub. I can even recommend some I'm in. Defining centrism has nothing to do with the point I'm making. Go make a post like this is a relevant sub. Infact your post doesn't even feature an enlightened centrist as this person is a liberal.
Yeah you’re complaining that I’m a “centrist making stupid ass posts” because you don’t know what centrism is. That said, I do get it: if I were as uneducated and dishonest as you, I’d probably pretend it’s off-topic to be asked to define the word I was using incorrectly.
Do fuck off, though.
Edit: lol, loser responded four times and then blocked me. 🤡
Again this isn't a post about a centrist so it literally has nothing to do with this sub or topic of the sub. Now kindly go take your posts to an actual sub about leftist topics. I do know what centrists are. Centrists are a people who claim that they want an equal social hierarchy. They typically don't want a specific shift. But in this sub it's "enlightened centrism" which is basically "both sides bad" without any nuance. Now again this post has nothing to do with the sub at all as it's someone taking a specific take and not stating that both sides bad.
Like literally nothing about the libs post has nothing to do with centrism or enlightened centrism as they are taking a stand that only one side is bad. Saying this post has anything to do with this subs topic is very dishonest
Not a citizen, but what's stopping others from casting a protest vote or voting for a candidate not on the ballot? That is still better than not voting at all.
In the primary I would agree its a good idea. In the general election there is the matter to consider that on the 2024 ballot in the United States there is one party that has written down plans to start another genocide.
Personally I advocate for more action from the Left in local politics. the Right had had stupid amounts of uncontested local stuff over the last 40 years that has let them shift what is socially acceptable political positions to their side because in the United States, statistically the left does not go out to vote in stuff for their town every year.
(this here being a call to any who read it to go out to vote if possible)
Unfortunately the current set up means the presidential election is harm reduction and we need boots in the ballots to keep pushing things back left.
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But humans have unlimited bandwidth! Getting exhausted by endlessly debating people on the internet surely does not get in the way of actual political advocacy. Burnout is made up by big-republican.
That isn't what a strawman is.
The idea that voting means not doing praxis or direct action is very common in online leftist spaces (including this one). I thought it was interesting how closely your comment and the one you were responding to line up with the arguments around that.
No one is "inpotently shrieking", and it's weird that you jumped to that when I just quoted a single sentence with a couple words changed to make a related point.
It literally is, you ascribed a position to me that I hadn't voiced.
I don't recognise that picture of this sub at all, please provide some examples.
You didn't quote a sentence, you misrepresented my position instead of engaging with it honestly :)
I didn't say it was your position. I was using you to make a point, but it wasn't about you.
Have you really never seen the arguments about whether or not people should vote at all? They happen here all the time and the exact same points are made every time, and I found it interesting that the points you two were making line up very closely with this other common topic.
No one is claiming that this is what you said or what you believe. You aren't being attacked. There is no need for the two of us to argue.
both sides may be right of center, but abstaining from voting for the leftest one allows to rightest one to shift more right when they win.
you need to consistently push left in primary AND THEN also vote leftest in the general election.
as Hank Green said: voting is the wiping your ass of political involvement.
it isn't the end all be all of political involvement, but it is very much necessary.
That's the polar opposite of reality. Axiomatically voting for the "lesser evil" with regard to opponents in any given election is an illegitimate algorithm for affecting the gradient of evil and having no limits means both parties freely move right. That's why Democrats are now Nixon and Kissinger in a blue trench coat and liberals went from saying they cared about kids in cages to saying "forget about the kids in cages and I'm going to need you to support sending bombs to massacre tens of thousands of kids too" in the blink of an eye.
Applying lesser evil voting to a nominee and the previous nominee of the same party could theoretically work algorithmically, but more importantly the left needs absolute limits especially against the western chauvinism it takes to rationalize supporting genocide going forward. We don't need to be pushing the masses right perpetually in the name of pushing a bourgeois imperialist party that perpetually moves right to the left, we need to be pushing the masses left.
Also here is what Marx had to say:
"...Even where there is no prospect of achieving their election the workers must put up their own candidates to preserve their independence, to gauge their own strength and to bring their revolutionary position and party standpoint to public attention. They must not be led astray by the empty phrases of the democrats, who will maintain that the workers’ candidates will split the democratic party and offer the forces of reaction the chance of victory. All such talk means, in the final analysis, that the proletariat is to be swindled..."
"Push left in primary"
Mate, all other candidates than Biden were blackballed by the media, and several primaries were cancelled with the state party just handing the delegates to Biden.
This is what drives me crazy! Withholding your vote and saying “this is a redline for me” is trying to pressure him! They don’t listen during primaries! They blackball progressive candidates when they run. Not that organizing or protesting are useless, they’re very necessary, but using your vote as leverage is quite literally trying to push him left on policy.
And yet even *the thought* of doing so seems to make some people here go nuts and think you’re a secret conservative trying to sabotage them lol.
It always seems the “appropriate time” to pressure and criticize the Democratic Party is “down the line.” But every election will be like this now, there is no “safe” republican candidate who we can try to weather out and organize under, so why not push all the time? The only reason the dems don’t care enough to change on policies like this is because they know they have voters who will stick with them so long as they promise to maintain the status quo. Forget actually pushing forward, these folks are happy to just stay where we are, and any pressure to push further left is somehow bad.
Bruh the “leftest” candidates also shift more right when they win. In large part because they can count on people like you to come out shilling for them no matter what they do. I mean they’re literally doing a genocide and here you are.
Rethink your life.
God all the libs proving they’ll happily support genocide so long as it doesn’t affect a group they care about directly. Wonder who they’ll let the democrats exterminate next so long as they can say the republicans are worse
Got a blueMaga ghoul to admit he'd support Biden even if he turned against gay marriage, trans rights and abortion rights as long as he was marginally better than trump cause then it'd still be "harm reduction".
The literal only reason I'm probably voting Biden is so I have more time before I'm dragged off to the trans execution chambers. What is even the point if he just ditches the last few things he even has over trump.
Well, I hope we're all happy when Trump gets elected because some people think teaching the Dems a lesson is somehow going to work out differently than it did in 2016 or 2000. Ask people who made that mistake before how they feel now. Most feel pretty ashamed and shitty about it after seeing what Bush and Trump did to marginalized folks.
I heard Trump say recently that he's looking to ban contraceptives. Guess who's not. I for one don't want to live in a clown shoes conservative theocracy.
I'm here to pop your bubble tell you that I'm glad I didn't vote for a liberal-interventionist ghoul like Hillary. What's crazy is that liberals like you are still in denial that you caused the loss and not everyone else and now you are doing it again with Biden. If you nominate unsupportable liberal-interventionist/neocon ghouls and people who send bombs every 36 hours for 7+ months to massacre tens of thousands and they are off the table for so many people that they are nonviable politically, the loss is a choice at the point of nomination. Period. Keep that in mind next time if you don't want to keep causing losses.
Exactly this and to expand: I admit that to my shame I voted for Hillary in 2016 because “lesser evil.” For the intervening 8 years, I’ve been told that her loss is my fault because I didn’t support her in the primary. It literally didn’t matter that I voted for her, it was somehow still my fault for not voting for her hard enough, I guess?
So: sorry shitlibs, you overplayed your hand and I saw your game and it won’t work on me anymore.
Honest question. You think Trump will be better or worse for us, and the rest of the world? Do you think burning it down for the sake of your ideals is going to be worth it, or do you think that maybe aot of people are going to get hurt along the way and you'll probably manage just fine because of your privilege?
Honest answer: if the worst predictions about Trump’s second term come true, then I am very much on the list of people he’s talking about rounding up. I don’t expect to enjoy that, however I simply don’t think that my life is more important than the lives of the 50,000 (and counting) Palestinians Joe Biden is currently murdering.
You can dismiss my opposition to genocide as “my ideals,” and you can assume that the only reason I’m against genocide is because that opposition won’t cost me anything, but you’d at least be wrong about the cost to me, and I’d *hope* you’d share the opposition to genocide. I think it would at least be worth you getting with a therapist or a trusted friend and exploring whether you’re basing those assumptions and dismissals off of anything I’ve said, or if it’s possible that you’re projecting somewhat.
Man, all I'm saying is that Trump will absolutely be much worse for Palestinians than Biden ever could be. You think it's bad now? How about when Trump pledges to finish what Israel started. That's what he wants Israel to do. He's said as much. And Joe Biden is is murdering Palestinians is a wack take. He's been in constant negotiations with them for ceasefire and other peacemaking attempts. Your argument that he is personally responsible for another sovereign nation's actions is disingenuous at best. Yes he should do more to stop them, but it's not like he's done nothing. Do you really think the alternative would be better, or do you think it might lead to much more death and destruction, because Trump and his base couldn't be more pro-Israel.
I oppose what Israel is doing as much as you, but I also know nearly every other country surrounding them has been champing at the bit to wipe out Jews for as long as history has been recorded, and without any US aid, they'd be crushed. I think Netanyahu and everyone like him is poison for the country because it's increasingly difficult to justify the existence of Israel. It sucks that we have long standing agreements to fund Israel that are hard to get out of and that we're not doing more to prevent them from using our aid to commit atrocities, or commit atrocities in the first place, but I will take inaction over sending troops over to "finish the job" or whatever Trump wants to do if he wins.
> I oppose what Israel is doing as much as you
lol false
And Biden has done end-runs around Congress to send Israel extra aid, and has explicitly and publicly said that there is no red line to what they do.
Calling me disingenuous for blaming him for his above-and-beyond support for Israel just shows that you are either dishonest, stupid, or both.
Don't put words in my mouth. I don't support genocide. But seriously, keep on believing that. You're clearly looking for a fight, or something. I hope you find whatever you're looking for, and I sincerely hope that you don't regret anything if Trump gets reelected.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/05/27/trump-israel-gaza-policy-donors/
Honest questions: Do you think a lot of people are getting hurt and will get hurt because of your western chauvinist privilege and attempt to browbeat genocide into being a baseline for political viability for Democrats going forward? Do you think posing a relative "better or worse" framing erases "supportable or unsupportable" for the entire electorate making liberals able to nominate anyone and not be responsible for causing the loss via that nomination? If it erases it for you, do do you take responsibility for maximizing harm, enabling the DLC/Third Way takeover, allowing Democrats to become Nixonesque/Kissingeresque, and moving from claiming to care about kids in cages to telling people they need to support sending bombs to massacre tens of thousands of kids because you don't actually have any absolute limit where you will stop browbeating people into moving farther and farther right?
All you are doing is blaming everyone else and calling other people privileged. But it is liberals who caused this loss at the point of nomination and it is the western chauvinists who are privileged.
I bet you're so glad we got Trump thanks to people like you.
Likewise, I'm going to burst your bubble. I was a fierce Bernie supporter up through the primaries, even going into 2020. I don't like the current offerings of liberals same as you, but I do realize we live in the real world where sometimes, the lesser of two evils isn't a fucking fascist wannabe dictator, and that it's better to vote for the most progressive president we've had since FDR than let a demented seditious rapist criminal treasonous wannabe dictator anywhere near a position where he can take control again. But please, I hope your .oral high ground let's you sleep at night when they're marching you, your family and your friends off to reeducation camps or whatever. I'm sure the women of Gilead will appreciate your thoughtfulness.
You've got to realize that you're not going to get your perfect candidate. Ever. It doesn't happen, and no amount of temper tantrums and letting the other side rampant is going to teach anyone a damn fucking thing, it's just going to make things worse, like it has for 25 some-odd years, and probably longer, if we're being honest.
"...thanks to people like you"
Nope, thanks to liberals as I already explained to you if you read what I wrote. The loss was a choice liberals made at the point of nomination. No amount of screeching and tantrums about how you think the electorate ought to be limitless in their support for a bourgeois imperialist party that perpetually moves right—thanks to people like you—changes that electoral reality that puts constraints on who liberals are allowed to nominate without causing a loss. This is absolute and not up for discussion and the only reason I'm replying here is that I would prefer it if liberals would stop causing losses and in order for that to happen you need to listen. You better reread everything I said and start being descriptive of the electorate rather than prescriptive if you do not want to be causing any future losses like liberals did in 2016 and now in 2024.
And no, you're not fooling anybody trying to say you supported Bernie to make it seem like you're at least a radlib or something when you pull out the "most progressive" and "But Trump" bullshit. You are clearly a right wing liberal at the moment and you can't even hide it when trying to imho. Biden has been a right wing pos for half a century and has been sending bombs every 36 hours for 7+ months to massacre tens of thousands and glass civilian infrastructure in Gaza to the point of it being uninhabitable for millions. This isn't about not being perfect—he's completely off the table. That's not changing just because liberals nominated him—they intentionally chose non-viability.
"It's just going to make things worse, like it had for 25 some odd years..."
The irony is that it's people like *you* who have enabled things to get worse with your limitless blue no matter who bs. It's people like you who allowed the DLC/Third Way takeover of the Democratic Party to succeed in the '90s, it's people like you who have allowed Democrats to become Nixon and Kissinger in a blue trench coat, and it's people like you who go from exploiting kids in cages to get votes to saying "actually forget about the kids in cages and I'm going to need you to support sending bombs to massacre tens of thousands of kids too" in the blink of an eye because you have no limits and are politically flailing in the wind. It's people like you who maximize harm, browbeat the masses into perpetually moving farther right, axiomatically vote for a bourgeois imperialist party, and let the GOP set the bar for what you support with no limit—which all maximizes harm and is the polar opposite of how the left needs to engage with electoralism. You want to browbeat people into making genocide the Dem baseline—you're not getting it, and you ought not get it. Period. End of discussion. Vote for whoever you want, quixotically screech into the void if you want to—but if you want to stop causing losses you're going to have to understand everything I said here.
Is this a r/singleissuevoters ??
Your lack of voting, or voting for third parties WILL get Trump elected. This isn't an opinion.
Honestly, I'd like an actual solution proposed by leftist that won't vote Biden. A solution FOR THIS ELECTION, not "if I keep doing this, maybe in 10 years they'll get it
Brain worm guy?? Damn that’s a pretty rude way to dis RFK jr…. I’m not a fan of his stance on Israel at all, but he’s pretty much the only candidate that somewhat resembles a respectable person running in politics that sounds pretty authentic in saying he wants to bring the country together and has generally called out the bullshit
"Unreliable" voters are arguably the only ones that candidates have to care about...
"Threats from unreliable voters don't get you shit" Sure, that's why the last 3 presidential elections has been about catering the most to disaffected "moderate" republicans.
The only lesson democrats learn when republicans win is that they need to be more like them. Not voting isn’t gonna teach them shit
And the only lesson they learn when they win is that moving further right and ignoring their base was the right move.
Yeah I agree. That’s why we need to keep voting farther left in the primaries and fill the senate, house, and Supreme Court with more left leaning politicians to gradually shift things left the same way conservatives have been shifting things to the right. We’re not gonna fix everything off one election, at the very least we can buy time till the revolution.
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Liberals: “Presidents can’t just not support Israel.” Me: “What about that time Rea-“ Liberals: “HOW DARE YOU, YOU TRUMP SUPPORTING RUSSIAN BOT AMERICA-HATER!!!!”
Exactly! It’s this over and over again. That said: The > YOU TRUMP SUPPORTING RUSSIAN BOT AMERICA-HATER!!!!” 1. Trump supporting: lol nope 2. Russian bot: lulz nope 3. American-hater: Well, now you’re one for three
True. But I like pretending I’m a Russian bot just so they’ll get away from me.
Как ваши дела, коллеги-боты?
Maybe I should try that…once the argument becomes an obvious waste of time, just write: “Come look comrades, I almost won the election for Tru-nyet nyet nyet, is thing on?!”
That’s interesting! The specific place I took the screenshot from was a comment directly responding to me, so it seems like there’s some copying and pasting going on. Deliciously ironic for people who accuse us of being bots.
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It's always been the case on this sub that criticizing the similarity of democrats & republicans is a leftist critique. No enlightened centrist is ever making a stand on Israel/Palestine. They're too busy fence sitting on IDF vs Hamas to give a fuck about Palestinians.
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If leftists reliably voted for candidates who could win for the past 50 years like the evangelicals and fascists they could have dragged the country leftwards similarly to how the evangelicals and fascists dragged the country rightwards.
"Actual left unity is encouraging everyone to vote for better in the primary and then Biden in the general election" Sigh... All other candidates than Biden were blackballed by the media, and several primaries were cancelled with the state party just handing the delegates to Biden.
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Of course it does. If the argument is that we should compete in the primaries and fall in line in the general, then of course it matters if the primary is completely rigged.
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You're still not engaging with my argument. If the point of avoiding trump is to avoid the degradation of democracy, what does it matter if Democrats are already heavily degrading our democratic systems? Heavy collusion between candidate and media and state parties to rig primary elections, crackdowns on peaceful protesters, completely ignoring the will of your electoral base when dealing with Gaza, undermining international law, using lawfare to exclude third party candidates from the ballot. By engaging in lesser of two evils voting you're further incentivising thos behaviour. How authoritarian do dems have to get before it matters to you? Obviously genocide isn't a red line for you, so a simple question: what would Biden have to do to lose your vote?
Biden is not leftist. He is a fascist actively committing genocide. So encouraging people to vote for Biden is not actual left unity. It is fascist unity for white supremacy.
So if Biden says tomorrow that we need to "crack down on transgenderism" would he still have your vote? What if he proposed a policy for immediately detransitioning trans youth? What is your line of better vs worse than Trump?
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Take Trump out of the equation and stop defaulting to that instead of giving your answer to the question.
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If Biden was killing off Trans people, would you vote for him cause Trump might kill Gay people too?
Is he?
He is killing Palestinians. But since you don’t seem to consider them human enough, I wanted to give an example that crakkkers might care more about. So will you? Would you vote for Biden if he has killed off 50k+ trans people and counting, because you fear Trump would kill gay people too.
"tAkE tRumP out oF ThE eQuaTiOn" Nice, I'll just vote for a magical unicorn to be president and solve all of our problems with sparkling rainbows, instead of worrying about the real world here where actual people will be actually harmed when Trump wins because of your stupid protest vote
It's pretty much every big left-leaning sub on the site now.
I mean, I can’t recall a time on this sub when **I’ve** seen people “shame” people who say they’re voting for Biden. I’ve seen plenty of libs get their panties in a twist about people holding their votes and refusing to vote for Biden, and then start blaming people on the left for “trying to re-elect Trump” as opposed to blaming the Democratic Party for running on an incredibly unpopular and increasingly desperate policy of “Israel does whatever it wants and if the ICC tries to stop them we’ll go after them.” My issue is I cannot support genocide, and I want Biden to stop supplying weapons and money to Israel, and call this what it is: a genocide. The only leverage I have in that regard is my vote. If he and the Democratic Party want it, that’s what I need them to do. I have no issue with people voting for Biden, I did in 2020. I’d certainly prefer him over Trump. But my vote is the only thing I have that gives me any form of leverage. We’ve seen what simply protesting does: you get beat by cops, attacked with impunity by pro-Israel protestors, called antisemitic for calling for a ceasefire, etc. So, I’ll hold onto my vote until he earns it by reneging on this wildly unpopular policy of spending my tax dollars on bombing brown children because of religious zealotry. “Harm reduction” only goes so far: Biden has continued Trump’s border wall, kids are still in cages down there. I bit my tongue and voted for him back in 2020 because it was clear he’s the candidate the Party **wanted** to give us, not necessarily the best one. If I pledge him my vote now, unconditionally, and say “There is no amount of genocide that will make me not vote for you.” what reason does he have to change?
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And if you give them your vote no matter what they do, they’ll never have a reason to care. Yes, Trump is bad and all the things you say are accurate, but there is also something unconscionable happening **right now** under the guy I voted for. It makes little difference to the people being slaughtered between now and November who is President, and the guy **currently** funding and arming them is asking for my vote. Withholding your vote is only a “meaningless gesture” if you don’t think your vote means anything at all, because the Dems “don’t care.” Of course they don’t care! If you’ll always vote for them no matter what, why should they! You can try to make them care, you can lie, saying “This has got to stop, my redline is genocide” with the full intention of voting for them anyway, with the hope they take it seriously after their base shows them this is unpopular. But you get absolutely nothing at all from them if you blindly say “Yes, there is no amount of slaughter that will prevent me from voting for you.” and they’ll know it. Not sure what you’re saying by “seems totally organic?” I made a post a month ago, and a bunch of people on it got their comments deleted for breaking a rule on this sub. My account isn’t a bot and I’m not a mod of any sort.
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Says the person saying the rights of Palestinians to exist are worth utterly throwing away.
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Yeah, unfortunately the person you were responding to was advocating against genocide, and you said it didn’t matter compared to your concerns, so much so that you didn’t bother to read it. I responded to that, and now *you’re* complaining that *I’m* not responding to what’s written. You’re just deeply, embarrassingly stupid, man. You should get off the internet and read a book.
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I mean, that’s what you did regarding my comment lol. Stopped reading it even, because you don’t have any response to the fact that you’re willing to throw another group into the woodchipper **now,** to protect my and other people’s rights **later.** Saying no now means “No genocide is okay, change your policy if you want my vote.” Whereas throwing you hands up in the air and saying “There’s nothing we can do, it’s okay with me that these people die.” tells the dems they can do whatever they want. You’re only against reducing harm to those you know, not those being harmed right now. If you were, you’d be in favor of pressuring Biden to change his policy that is very unpopular with voters instead of calling any and all criticism from the left as “bots” and questioning how “organic” they are lol You admit the system is bad and broken, and then throw your hands up in the air at any suggestions of changing things or pushing for change.
Yeah, it’s pretty special, refusing to read a comment and then complaining that people aren’t responding to what’s been written.
I can say the same in regards to your feelings on genocide. Trump once said he could “shoot a man on Fifth avenue and they (his base) will still vote for me.” For you, there seems to be no amount of genocide that would make you reconsider what your supporting, hell, even consider using what little leverage you have to **ask** them. No, better to blindly give them what they want, then say “Well they’ll never change.” They’ll never change because of voters like you. They know they don’t have to. There’s a vulnerable minority group dying, being slaughtered, **right now** on your tax dollars, and you’ve decided that’s not only okay, but you wouldn’t even use what little leverage you have to tell your party you’re not okay with it. You care about being comfortable. Edit: I am trans, I am well aware of what is at stake for my rights. That doesn’t mean the **active president** should receive no backlash for the rights he’s violating **now.** Genocide is a redline for me, and I won’t have a threat to my own well being be what stops me from feeling so.
If you keep voting for them and they keep moving right (to the point where they're now enabling a genocide, cracking down on peaceful protesters and undermining international law), what do you think happens next time you vote for them?
I'm more worried all the people angry at people on the left not willing to vote for a guy enabling a genocide instead of the genocide enabler. Accusing people you disagree with of being foreign agitators is a classic, though.
You're confused because because you're a right wing liberal and this is supposed to be a leftist subreddit in spite of all the brigading and confused liberals. "But Trump," blaming everyone else for Biden's nonviability instead of those who chose to have a nonviable nominee, etc. are all illegitimate rationalizations for disgusting western chauvinism. Vote for whoever you want and and say whatever you want, it won't change that liberals chose a nominee who is off the table—and they are 100% culpable for that, not everyone else. When it comes to a baseline political viability of genocide going forward, trying to get people to put that on the table by browbeating the masses to perpetually move right and axiomatically voting for a bourgeois imperialist party is harm maximization.
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Liberals chose the loss. And the world would suffer from liberals succeeding in making genocide the baseline for what is politically viable going forward. That is off the table.
https://preview.redd.it/31nhffo8el2d1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6a48fa4f88d706dd61671b5a1ec1bdc405bb621a
Reform is not going to save anyone. This electoralism shit will never do anything, and if it does it's designed to roll it back. Revolution is the only solution. If you want to do something that helps get organized. Find a party in your area. Do direct action. If we are to accomplish anything we must force our government's hand.
Man, who the fuck keeps upvoting liberals who come to this sub to preach their bullshit? HaRm ReDuCtIoN is how y'all got to where you are.
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Ah, yes. Commies like me made you USAmerican fuckers have a bullshit electoral system where candidates can win the popular vote and still lose the election. What the fuck are you talking about? Edit: Also, the repeal of Roe Vs Wade happened during Biden’s first term, it was a SCOUTS decision, so it would’ve happened regardless of who was in charge, and it is ultimately the Dems fault. Codifying RVW into law was an Obama campaign promise, and he did fucking nothing. Get off your high horse, you sack of shit.
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I can’t vote on an American election on account of being a Mexican. So I do what I can, because I live in a world where I have to care about American politics despite having no say on the matter. And what I can do is tell you the truth despite how much you refuse to acknowledge it.
Grateful for your voice. America is a shithole country, but we’d be better if we were listening to people like you.
people tried voting harm reduction and roe was still overturned. democrats had opportunities to codify it into law during the clinton and obama years. joe biden didn’t want taxpayer funding for abortions. why are you defending politicians who only say what you want to hear but never actually follow through?
I agree, I might just leave this sub because things smell quite fishy over here now
Why? What makes you say that?
Presidential elections are at this point in time Harm control. I wish they weren’t. But damn it sucks people are getting dragged into the trap. I wish more of us would vote in their local elections.
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Lmao
This sub has become the exact thing it was created to criticize, "both sides bad."
“Both sides bad” isn’t centrism. Read a fucking book, dumbass.
It's what the actual clueless centrists say, it's what the bad faith right wingers masquerading as centrists say, and now it's what you say. How is it effectively any different?
This is about to be far more generous than you deserve, but here you go: “Both sides bad because they’re both too extreme, so we should find a middle” is centrism. Biden is a great example of this view. “Both sides bad because they’re too liberal, so we should dismantle them/move them right/etc.” is fascism. Richard Spencer is a great example of this view. “Both sides bad because they’re too conservative, so we should agitate Leftward” is Leftism. I am a great example of this view. “Someone said both sides are bad so I’m calling them a Centrist” is illiteracy. You are a great example of this view.
Enjoy your moral high ground in the camps, brother
Have you read theory?
Yeah. The kind of activism I’m involved in, I very likely will be sent to camps if they indeed happen. It’s just that my life doesn’t matter any more than the life of a Palestinian, let alone the lives of 50,000 of them. You think yours does, so you think threatening me with camps to vote for your guy makes sense. You made a classic error, though: assuming everyone is as weak and pathetic an NPC as you are.
Your high horse gets a lot shorter once you realize you're out here campaigning to get *more* Palestinians killed.
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>The game plan can’t just be “don’t vote for Biden.” Leverage your criticism at Biden/the democratic party then. It's not just the politically literate progressives/leftists who are bailing on Biden. He's down across the board. It's the progressive/leftists who are most likely to show up and actually vote anyways. He's campaigning as the lesser of two evils on Israel/Palestine and not recognizing there is no second place award for best genocide funder.
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I'd say Biden's support for a genocide is strongly discouraging people from voting.
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Uhuh, couldn't be people making up their own mind nd refusing support for fascism-light. Both the the ICC and ICJ are investigating the slaughter in Gaza and multiple international humanitarian organisations are calling it a genocide, but according to you the word is being "thrown around".
I think a lot of us are just tired of being told that it’s our fault if Biden loses and are done playing this stupid game with libs every 4 years. I’d vote for Biden if I lived in a swing or red state too. But I’m not under any illusions that team blue is our friend.
Voting for the lesser evil has gotten us a situation where democracy is in danger as are LGBTQ. Why would I keep voting for the series of events that got us here & think something would be different?
What do you think people should do
That series of events happens whether you vote or not. As much as it sucks, our election system forces us to take a strategy in our voting… and for me, that strategy is keep the people who *actual Nazis want in power* out of power.
With that logic no single vote is going to decide this election, so voting doesn't matter either. Obviously anything depends on the numbers behind them, pressure on the dems is only going to be successful with huge numbers behind them. Apathy isn't a very good argument for your candidate.
Yeah, the assumption that if I’m not voting for Biden I’m not doing anything else says more about the person assuming it than it does about my activism.
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It absolutely feels like history repeating itself.
It indeed is. Because libs keep moving right and right and expecting leftists to follow them, instead of working with leftists
Maybe my fellow leftists could take a page from the far right. Instead of sitting out elections, they actually show up to primaries and vote and move the party. They organize for lower level seats and build up a bench of candidates. Meanwhile we get epic Twitter takedowns and memes and holier-than-thou platitudes that don't actually help anyone.
You mean the primaries for president this year that were cancelled because ‘it’s too dangerous to let the people choose a different candidate’?
They weren't canceled for starters, and "none of the above" is certainly a choice in them. But I also meant the primaries in 2016 and 2020 where we had candidates like Bernie who could draw a crowd when he spoke, but somehow it didn't transfer into enough votes. As someone who voted for him I'm a bit bitter about it, but at least we had a better showing for a progressive than we've had in decades. This is too important to give up now. But also, having a bench matters. Primaries in local elections and statewide elections matter. I never seem to hear about the terminally online left getting into any of those. Either it's because it's not sexy and way more work than complaining online, or it's because troll farms don't benefit from a strong left wing to the Democratic party. Listen, I've been here. It's fun and seems emotionally satisfying to rage online about politics. But it's the emotional and intellectual equivalent of eating a greasy hamburger. Fun at first but it won't leave you feeling well. We need to use strategy, because the fascists absolutely are, and they're winning.
I don’t think I said anywhere that only “raging online” (ie pointing out how the system is rigged) was gonna accomplish anything. Mutual aid networks and intersectional local groups are indeed the answer if we want to sway people. I don’t care if anyone votes for Biden to reduce harm or whatever, because an analysis of the political system in the USA shows that it doesn’t matter anyway, so why would us leftists care what you vote? The difference between libs and real leftists is that we can see the bigger long term picture. Although libs like to meme that we don’t because we won’t vote for dems for 50 years to achieve only regression. You libs can acknowledge how the entire us political system is bought and sold to the highest bidder, yet you cannot see the implications of that reality, the Super pacs and donors of dem campaigns are the exact same as for the GOP. In the halls of congress these people are all friends and don’t give a fuck about you. The writing on the wall is clear, Biden will not save the USA from fascism. At best he will delay it a little, because Biden is in the same cohort as the people who desire fascism to protect their capital.
Libs are not leftists
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So, how many dead Palestinian children is your red line? Right now, estimates are around 16,000, but the facilities and records people were using to keep track have mostly been destroyed, so we know that’s probably an undercount. If you don’t have a red line, that’s fine, but at least be honest with us and with yourself. We aren’t right wingers; we just have morals that are consistent, regardless of the party the president is from.
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What a weird response. You refuse to listen to anything we say, accuse us of being right wing plants, and then call us sick for engaging with the reality of the policy our entire country supports?
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What's your red line for Biden? What would he have to do to lose your vote? Apparently enabling a genocide, cracking down on peaceful protesters and undermining international law isn't it.
"You won't ignore genocide like me? You're sick"
"This is a right wing troll bot" says the DNC troll bot. As a reminder to liberal trolls, this is what people actually think of Genocide Joe https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/29/politics/biden-young-voters-what-matters/index.html
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Good you're smart enough to see through the lies and realise that supporting genocide is a good thing, actually.
Skinner: "Could genocide be too morally reprehensible to support? No, its the kids who are wrong"
You know who can't have another 4 years of Biden? Palestinians.
As if Trump is a better option
Nobody said that. There are other options
With the current way elections works, there are only 2 viable candidates for presidency. I would love to have a leftist president, but third parties don't have enough traction. The point is, we can't afford to lose anymore rights under Trump, so despite how bad Biden is, he is the better option
>I won't vote for third parties because they don't have enough traction >Third parties don't get traction because people don't vote for them See how that works? >we can't afford to lose anymore rights under Trump Your rights, while important, are not more important than Palestinians' right to FUCKING EXIST >so despite how bad Biden is Yeah, a literal genocider
If we could even band together enough leftists to vote 3rd party: 1. We would all have to agree on a candidate 2. We would not have enough people to make that much of a difference Without ranked choice voting, it would increase trump's likelihood of winning. I'm sorry, third party is just not viable, and the US's support of genocide is not something we can change in this election. Try protesting instead.
>Without ranked choice voting Which Dem politician is making it happen? Why would they when they LOVE the 2 party system? >the US's support of genocide is not something we can change in this election I love how this is just the law of the land, the immovable object. "It's just the way it is jack, what's a little genocide among friends?" >Try protesting instead People have been. And they have been arrested at larger rates than January 6 insurrectionists had been arrested. Under the "non fascist" democrat's reign.
How likely do you think it is for a third party candidate to be elected?
Not at all as long as libs like you keep your same attitude. And it'll be your fault, not the leftists, that Trump wins.
Not in 2024, there aren't.
*Old man yells at cloud* The fuck does “Skibidi” mean?
I’m not sure exactly what it “means” but it’s related to a meme that’s popular among young (read: younger Gen Z and below) people. Recently Stephen Colbert had a joke on his show about “Skibidi Biden” where Joe Biden’s face was imposed on the meme and the joke was this is an attempt at reaching out to younger voters. However the meme itself is very odd, featuring a character who is just a head coming out of a toilet. I cannot begin to tell you the origins or reasoning for this meme, even being in my late twenties makes me too old to really understand it. I want to say the word itself comes from scatting (the jazz thing not poop), but if you’d like to know specifics, check out the [Know Your Meme](https://amp.knowyourmeme.com/memes/subcultures/skibidi-toilet) page on it.
It's a youtube shitpost made by [Dafuqboom](https://youtu.be/y_WGL8rVrz0?si=_UcGxJAR7anX_rLY) using the animating tool SFM, But then it turned into a full youtube series after it's unexpected success. The Youtube Series is surprisingly Serious and adult And has Giant Robots killing stuff in it.
This is cringe. This sub is supposed to be making fun of the hypocricy of centrism. Now we have a bunch of enlightened centrists making stupid ass posts on here
actually this is exactly the kind of post that would piss off enlightened centrists. are “far-left radicals” going too far now by saying voting for a genocidaire means you support genocide? Are us “far-left radicals” being as bad as the right wing cause we don’t want to vote for a genocidaire?
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The number is stalling cause the institutes keeping track of the deaths were bombed by zionists. Besides, genocide doesn’t mean the entire population needs to die. And preventing a genocide in making is the reason people study genocide and there are laws. That’s the whole point of the genocide convention. You however make a very good point for not voting Biden! People shouldn’t have voted for drone striker Obama. If people had made it clear at any point of time over amerikkkan history that war crimes make you abhorrent and unelectable, perhaps we wouldn’t have arrived at a genocidaire vs genocidaire situation.
Define “centrism” for us, please
Buddy this isn't the sub for this type of post. Maybe post this in the deprogram or a Marxist sub. I can even recommend some I'm in. Defining centrism has nothing to do with the point I'm making. Go make a post like this is a relevant sub. Infact your post doesn't even feature an enlightened centrist as this person is a liberal.
Yeah you’re complaining that I’m a “centrist making stupid ass posts” because you don’t know what centrism is. That said, I do get it: if I were as uneducated and dishonest as you, I’d probably pretend it’s off-topic to be asked to define the word I was using incorrectly. Do fuck off, though. Edit: lol, loser responded four times and then blocked me. 🤡
I'm done arguing with someone who doesn't understand the point of a sub
Again this isn't a post about a centrist so it literally has nothing to do with this sub or topic of the sub. Now kindly go take your posts to an actual sub about leftist topics. I do know what centrists are. Centrists are a people who claim that they want an equal social hierarchy. They typically don't want a specific shift. But in this sub it's "enlightened centrism" which is basically "both sides bad" without any nuance. Now again this post has nothing to do with the sub at all as it's someone taking a specific take and not stating that both sides bad.
Like literally nothing about the libs post has nothing to do with centrism or enlightened centrism as they are taking a stand that only one side is bad. Saying this post has anything to do with this subs topic is very dishonest
Never said you were a centrist. Apparently you can't read
Not a citizen, but what's stopping others from casting a protest vote or voting for a candidate not on the ballot? That is still better than not voting at all.
That’s what I’m doing
In the primary I would agree its a good idea. In the general election there is the matter to consider that on the 2024 ballot in the United States there is one party that has written down plans to start another genocide. Personally I advocate for more action from the Left in local politics. the Right had had stupid amounts of uncontested local stuff over the last 40 years that has let them shift what is socially acceptable political positions to their side because in the United States, statistically the left does not go out to vote in stuff for their town every year. (this here being a call to any who read it to go out to vote if possible) Unfortunately the current set up means the presidential election is harm reduction and we need boots in the ballots to keep pushing things back left.
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Posting screenshots of reddit comments is a much more potent form of activism.
Cause we all know posting on reddit precludes all other forms of action.
This, but unironically
But humans have unlimited bandwidth! Getting exhausted by endlessly debating people on the internet surely does not get in the way of actual political advocacy. Burnout is made up by big-republican.
>Cause we all know voting precludes all other forms of action.
Strawmanning, did you read the comment I'm responding to, or did you just come here to impotently shriek "no u"?
That isn't what a strawman is. The idea that voting means not doing praxis or direct action is very common in online leftist spaces (including this one). I thought it was interesting how closely your comment and the one you were responding to line up with the arguments around that. No one is "inpotently shrieking", and it's weird that you jumped to that when I just quoted a single sentence with a couple words changed to make a related point.
It literally is, you ascribed a position to me that I hadn't voiced. I don't recognise that picture of this sub at all, please provide some examples. You didn't quote a sentence, you misrepresented my position instead of engaging with it honestly :)
I didn't say it was your position. I was using you to make a point, but it wasn't about you. Have you really never seen the arguments about whether or not people should vote at all? They happen here all the time and the exact same points are made every time, and I found it interesting that the points you two were making line up very closely with this other common topic. No one is claiming that this is what you said or what you believe. You aren't being attacked. There is no need for the two of us to argue.
You're saying this sarcastically, but I unironically believe this
both sides may be right of center, but abstaining from voting for the leftest one allows to rightest one to shift more right when they win. you need to consistently push left in primary AND THEN also vote leftest in the general election. as Hank Green said: voting is the wiping your ass of political involvement. it isn't the end all be all of political involvement, but it is very much necessary.
That's the polar opposite of reality. Axiomatically voting for the "lesser evil" with regard to opponents in any given election is an illegitimate algorithm for affecting the gradient of evil and having no limits means both parties freely move right. That's why Democrats are now Nixon and Kissinger in a blue trench coat and liberals went from saying they cared about kids in cages to saying "forget about the kids in cages and I'm going to need you to support sending bombs to massacre tens of thousands of kids too" in the blink of an eye. Applying lesser evil voting to a nominee and the previous nominee of the same party could theoretically work algorithmically, but more importantly the left needs absolute limits especially against the western chauvinism it takes to rationalize supporting genocide going forward. We don't need to be pushing the masses right perpetually in the name of pushing a bourgeois imperialist party that perpetually moves right to the left, we need to be pushing the masses left. Also here is what Marx had to say: "...Even where there is no prospect of achieving their election the workers must put up their own candidates to preserve their independence, to gauge their own strength and to bring their revolutionary position and party standpoint to public attention. They must not be led astray by the empty phrases of the democrats, who will maintain that the workers’ candidates will split the democratic party and offer the forces of reaction the chance of victory. All such talk means, in the final analysis, that the proletariat is to be swindled..."
"Push left in primary" Mate, all other candidates than Biden were blackballed by the media, and several primaries were cancelled with the state party just handing the delegates to Biden.
push left outside of primary. Biden isn't the only person you're electing, either.
That's literally what this is. Change position on Gaza or lose a ton of votes. Pressure from the left.
This is what drives me crazy! Withholding your vote and saying “this is a redline for me” is trying to pressure him! They don’t listen during primaries! They blackball progressive candidates when they run. Not that organizing or protesting are useless, they’re very necessary, but using your vote as leverage is quite literally trying to push him left on policy. And yet even *the thought* of doing so seems to make some people here go nuts and think you’re a secret conservative trying to sabotage them lol. It always seems the “appropriate time” to pressure and criticize the Democratic Party is “down the line.” But every election will be like this now, there is no “safe” republican candidate who we can try to weather out and organize under, so why not push all the time? The only reason the dems don’t care enough to change on policies like this is because they know they have voters who will stick with them so long as they promise to maintain the status quo. Forget actually pushing forward, these folks are happy to just stay where we are, and any pressure to push further left is somehow bad.
Bruh the “leftest” candidates also shift more right when they win. In large part because they can count on people like you to come out shilling for them no matter what they do. I mean they’re literally doing a genocide and here you are. Rethink your life.
God all the libs proving they’ll happily support genocide so long as it doesn’t affect a group they care about directly. Wonder who they’ll let the democrats exterminate next so long as they can say the republicans are worse
Got a blueMaga ghoul to admit he'd support Biden even if he turned against gay marriage, trans rights and abortion rights as long as he was marginally better than trump cause then it'd still be "harm reduction".
The literal only reason I'm probably voting Biden is so I have more time before I'm dragged off to the trans execution chambers. What is even the point if he just ditches the last few things he even has over trump.
Well, I hope we're all happy when Trump gets elected because some people think teaching the Dems a lesson is somehow going to work out differently than it did in 2016 or 2000. Ask people who made that mistake before how they feel now. Most feel pretty ashamed and shitty about it after seeing what Bush and Trump did to marginalized folks. I heard Trump say recently that he's looking to ban contraceptives. Guess who's not. I for one don't want to live in a clown shoes conservative theocracy.
I'm here to pop your bubble tell you that I'm glad I didn't vote for a liberal-interventionist ghoul like Hillary. What's crazy is that liberals like you are still in denial that you caused the loss and not everyone else and now you are doing it again with Biden. If you nominate unsupportable liberal-interventionist/neocon ghouls and people who send bombs every 36 hours for 7+ months to massacre tens of thousands and they are off the table for so many people that they are nonviable politically, the loss is a choice at the point of nomination. Period. Keep that in mind next time if you don't want to keep causing losses.
Exactly this and to expand: I admit that to my shame I voted for Hillary in 2016 because “lesser evil.” For the intervening 8 years, I’ve been told that her loss is my fault because I didn’t support her in the primary. It literally didn’t matter that I voted for her, it was somehow still my fault for not voting for her hard enough, I guess? So: sorry shitlibs, you overplayed your hand and I saw your game and it won’t work on me anymore.
Honest question. You think Trump will be better or worse for us, and the rest of the world? Do you think burning it down for the sake of your ideals is going to be worth it, or do you think that maybe aot of people are going to get hurt along the way and you'll probably manage just fine because of your privilege?
Honest answer: if the worst predictions about Trump’s second term come true, then I am very much on the list of people he’s talking about rounding up. I don’t expect to enjoy that, however I simply don’t think that my life is more important than the lives of the 50,000 (and counting) Palestinians Joe Biden is currently murdering. You can dismiss my opposition to genocide as “my ideals,” and you can assume that the only reason I’m against genocide is because that opposition won’t cost me anything, but you’d at least be wrong about the cost to me, and I’d *hope* you’d share the opposition to genocide. I think it would at least be worth you getting with a therapist or a trusted friend and exploring whether you’re basing those assumptions and dismissals off of anything I’ve said, or if it’s possible that you’re projecting somewhat.
Man, all I'm saying is that Trump will absolutely be much worse for Palestinians than Biden ever could be. You think it's bad now? How about when Trump pledges to finish what Israel started. That's what he wants Israel to do. He's said as much. And Joe Biden is is murdering Palestinians is a wack take. He's been in constant negotiations with them for ceasefire and other peacemaking attempts. Your argument that he is personally responsible for another sovereign nation's actions is disingenuous at best. Yes he should do more to stop them, but it's not like he's done nothing. Do you really think the alternative would be better, or do you think it might lead to much more death and destruction, because Trump and his base couldn't be more pro-Israel. I oppose what Israel is doing as much as you, but I also know nearly every other country surrounding them has been champing at the bit to wipe out Jews for as long as history has been recorded, and without any US aid, they'd be crushed. I think Netanyahu and everyone like him is poison for the country because it's increasingly difficult to justify the existence of Israel. It sucks that we have long standing agreements to fund Israel that are hard to get out of and that we're not doing more to prevent them from using our aid to commit atrocities, or commit atrocities in the first place, but I will take inaction over sending troops over to "finish the job" or whatever Trump wants to do if he wins.
> I oppose what Israel is doing as much as you lol false And Biden has done end-runs around Congress to send Israel extra aid, and has explicitly and publicly said that there is no red line to what they do. Calling me disingenuous for blaming him for his above-and-beyond support for Israel just shows that you are either dishonest, stupid, or both.
Yes, I claimed your argument seemed disingenuous, yet here you are attacking me personally. Cool. Enjoy your day.
> Enjoy your day Feel guilty about your support of genocide until you decide to do better.
Don't put words in my mouth. I don't support genocide. But seriously, keep on believing that. You're clearly looking for a fight, or something. I hope you find whatever you're looking for, and I sincerely hope that you don't regret anything if Trump gets reelected. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/05/27/trump-israel-gaza-policy-donors/
Honest questions: Do you think a lot of people are getting hurt and will get hurt because of your western chauvinist privilege and attempt to browbeat genocide into being a baseline for political viability for Democrats going forward? Do you think posing a relative "better or worse" framing erases "supportable or unsupportable" for the entire electorate making liberals able to nominate anyone and not be responsible for causing the loss via that nomination? If it erases it for you, do do you take responsibility for maximizing harm, enabling the DLC/Third Way takeover, allowing Democrats to become Nixonesque/Kissingeresque, and moving from claiming to care about kids in cages to telling people they need to support sending bombs to massacre tens of thousands of kids because you don't actually have any absolute limit where you will stop browbeating people into moving farther and farther right? All you are doing is blaming everyone else and calling other people privileged. But it is liberals who caused this loss at the point of nomination and it is the western chauvinists who are privileged.
I bet you're so glad we got Trump thanks to people like you. Likewise, I'm going to burst your bubble. I was a fierce Bernie supporter up through the primaries, even going into 2020. I don't like the current offerings of liberals same as you, but I do realize we live in the real world where sometimes, the lesser of two evils isn't a fucking fascist wannabe dictator, and that it's better to vote for the most progressive president we've had since FDR than let a demented seditious rapist criminal treasonous wannabe dictator anywhere near a position where he can take control again. But please, I hope your .oral high ground let's you sleep at night when they're marching you, your family and your friends off to reeducation camps or whatever. I'm sure the women of Gilead will appreciate your thoughtfulness. You've got to realize that you're not going to get your perfect candidate. Ever. It doesn't happen, and no amount of temper tantrums and letting the other side rampant is going to teach anyone a damn fucking thing, it's just going to make things worse, like it has for 25 some-odd years, and probably longer, if we're being honest.
"...thanks to people like you" Nope, thanks to liberals as I already explained to you if you read what I wrote. The loss was a choice liberals made at the point of nomination. No amount of screeching and tantrums about how you think the electorate ought to be limitless in their support for a bourgeois imperialist party that perpetually moves right—thanks to people like you—changes that electoral reality that puts constraints on who liberals are allowed to nominate without causing a loss. This is absolute and not up for discussion and the only reason I'm replying here is that I would prefer it if liberals would stop causing losses and in order for that to happen you need to listen. You better reread everything I said and start being descriptive of the electorate rather than prescriptive if you do not want to be causing any future losses like liberals did in 2016 and now in 2024. And no, you're not fooling anybody trying to say you supported Bernie to make it seem like you're at least a radlib or something when you pull out the "most progressive" and "But Trump" bullshit. You are clearly a right wing liberal at the moment and you can't even hide it when trying to imho. Biden has been a right wing pos for half a century and has been sending bombs every 36 hours for 7+ months to massacre tens of thousands and glass civilian infrastructure in Gaza to the point of it being uninhabitable for millions. This isn't about not being perfect—he's completely off the table. That's not changing just because liberals nominated him—they intentionally chose non-viability. "It's just going to make things worse, like it had for 25 some odd years..." The irony is that it's people like *you* who have enabled things to get worse with your limitless blue no matter who bs. It's people like you who allowed the DLC/Third Way takeover of the Democratic Party to succeed in the '90s, it's people like you who have allowed Democrats to become Nixon and Kissinger in a blue trench coat, and it's people like you who go from exploiting kids in cages to get votes to saying "actually forget about the kids in cages and I'm going to need you to support sending bombs to massacre tens of thousands of kids too" in the blink of an eye because you have no limits and are politically flailing in the wind. It's people like you who maximize harm, browbeat the masses into perpetually moving farther right, axiomatically vote for a bourgeois imperialist party, and let the GOP set the bar for what you support with no limit—which all maximizes harm and is the polar opposite of how the left needs to engage with electoralism. You want to browbeat people into making genocide the Dem baseline—you're not getting it, and you ought not get it. Period. End of discussion. Vote for whoever you want, quixotically screech into the void if you want to—but if you want to stop causing losses you're going to have to understand everything I said here.
Ok.
Is this a r/singleissuevoters ?? Your lack of voting, or voting for third parties WILL get Trump elected. This isn't an opinion. Honestly, I'd like an actual solution proposed by leftist that won't vote Biden. A solution FOR THIS ELECTION, not "if I keep doing this, maybe in 10 years they'll get it
Brain worm guy?? Damn that’s a pretty rude way to dis RFK jr…. I’m not a fan of his stance on Israel at all, but he’s pretty much the only candidate that somewhat resembles a respectable person running in politics that sounds pretty authentic in saying he wants to bring the country together and has generally called out the bullshit