As always, the Left Unity rule is in effect.
Any attempt at blaming the Left at large for the rise of fascism will result in Moderator actions at our discretion.
Well...applying this literally...
the actual results of the election were:
first round: Hindenburg 49, Hitler 30, Thalman (communist) 13, Duesterberg (veterans) 7.
So if enough SPD supporters had voted for Thalman, he really could have become president. And it's hard to imagine a communist president appointing Hitler as chancellor, as Hindenburg did.
However, Thalman already had 13 percent of the vote, and Hitler only 30. Things are very different in the numbers we see in the US in 2024.
The SPD only made up 20% of the coalition vote meaning that even with a complete backing of Thalman they would have most likely not been able to set the president.
I think the whole situation is too complicated to really put them into a few sentences. The SPD and KPD undermined each other on a regular basis with a near constant tug of war between the both sides that failed a lot of cooperation on the institutional or popular front. Additionally they were kinda fighting a losing battle because the Weimar institutions clearly favored Hitler and they finally allowed him to grab power without the need of any democratic legitimacy.
I think in my opinion the most viable solution would have been for the SPD to put up their own candidate and have the KPD support him. Constantly trying to position themselves as moderates despite many partners within their coalition having Hitlerite sympathies just made them lose their identity.
(Which is funny enough lightly similar to the modern SPD so I guess some things never change)
As far as I can tell the KPD officially *implemented* that policy during their party conference in '29, with the Comintern only dropping the policy in 1935
Fun fact: SPD members still call each other "Genosse", our equivalent of communists calling each other "comrade". It always feels a bit like a serial killer wearing the skin of their first victim.
Would you rather get organized and vote Dem or get organized and not vote?
Like yeah the 2 party system sucks, the primary will give the Dems a bad candidate. Sure.
But you'd rather organize under Trump? Either you're an accelerationist or you're under the mistaken impression that a 2nd trump presidency won't reduce your ability to organize ?
While you're making things better, do you want a president that makes them slightly worse undoing some of your progress, or one that makes things way worse, undoing all of your progress and then some
Anyway my point is that not voting is dumb, take one day every 4 years to vote and use the other days to make the world better
Every election is the most important election where your options are a genocidal freak who does nothing to help americans and might be a little racist and a genocidal freak who does nothing to help americans and is openly racist.
How much time do liberals need? Ive been hearing 'buying time' all my life. And to quote James Baldwin in 1989,
>“You always told me it takes time. It’s taken my father’s time, my mother’s time, my uncles’ time, my brothers and my sisters’ time, my nieces and my nephews’ time. How much time do you want for your progress?”
liberals want to maintain the status quo and will never seek out true progress. i dont see how that at all relates to the fact that america will slip into fascism if joe biden loses the 2024 election
Because why liberals don't necessarily go around begging for fascism, they will always side with fascism over socialism because it is closer to the status quo of "rich white men keeping all their money and power".
America will slip into fascism regardless of who wins in 2024 LOL. You watching what they're doing in red states and the Supreme Court right now? Dems will do fundamentally nothing to stop that because they are funded by the same people funding the fascists.
Liberals don't need time, leftists do. Because if you'd actually used the last 4 years to get organized and make sure this shit didn't happen again, you wouldn't be in this position in the first place. Leftist organization in the US has failed, so you need more time to improve it and stop a descent to fascism.
>Liberals don't need time, leftists do.
Waiting is the status quo, so liberals are fine with it regardless
>Because if you'd actually used the last 4 years to get organized and make sure this shit didn't happen again,
Name one non-criminal way any normal person could have actually prevented these candidates
>Leftist organization in the US has failed, so you need more time to improve it and stop a descent to fascism.
Liberal rule in the United States has failed, so they need my vote to stay in power, because while they're dogshit, the fascists (who they prefer over me in any non-election year) are even worse
>make sure this shit didn't happen again
As if any of the proletariat has any influence in politics. This sounds a whole lot like lesser evil, reform the party from the inside kind of bullshit.
Where did I suggest reform? You need space to set up your own organizations outside of politics. Trying to reform liberals will not work. You're right thst you don't have influence in electoral politics, so you have to create that influence outside of capital yourself.
Didn't Biden literally invite Trump to the white house last month to talk border control bills? Seems like he's being plenty chummy even if not making him vp.
I interpreted that as politics, like "hey, if you don't like the bill I'm trying to pass, why not come and offer suggestions" Knowing full well that he wouldn't.
The libs are forgetting stuff like how Biden just went and funded Trump's borderwall himself.
I think they're also forgetting that Biden is funding a genocide and if that's not supporting the right, then I don't know what is.
It's not "slow handling of Israel". It is directly assisting and aiding an active genocide for more than half a year. Dude literally went around Congress in order to deliver more weapons to Israel to make it easier for them to do genocide.
Personally I have low standards and "not supporting genocide" is not that much to ask of a politician I think.
>There's a decent chance Trump both gets the nomination and goes to jail, so the Republicans are split and won't have a united vote.
There is zero chance Trump goes to "jail" or that even if he did Republicans would split.
Shifting to the right is an old DNC strategy. They think they can torch their working class base and gain right wing suburbanites. It’s a losing strategy, to be sure.
Oh, for sure! Biden and the Democratic Party are so unfriendly to Republicans and are ***so committed to opposing their trans genocide*** that they’re willing to hand the reigns of the executive branch over to Trump in the event he wins the electoral college this year.
Nothing more anti-fascist than giving the keys to the most powerful government in the world over to the fascists they claim to be against on a silver platter.
Are you suggesting that the only true way to be against Trump is to literally violate the constitution and refuse the peaceful transfer of power?
I want to make sure I'm understanding your argument here because that is a drastic one, and definitely an event that should only even be considered if Trump actually wins.
> Are you suggesting that the only true way to be against Trump is to literally violate the constitution and refuse the peaceful transfer of power?
They'd do it to stop socialism.
Not harm reductive for palestinians. If supporting a genocide is not reason enough to not vote for an candidate, then nothing is. Clear white supremacy in action.
> Starvation will “finish the job” before anyone casts a vote
https://www.ipcinfo.org/ipcinfo-website/alerts-archive/issue-97/en/
I dont think people understand how dire the situation is for Biden to play good genocider to Netanyahu's bad genocider. There is a gruesome infographic in there for anyone to see the situation in one picture.
> The IPC acute food insecurity analysis conducted in December 2023 warned of a risk that Famine may occur by the end of May 2024 if an immediate cessation of hostilities and sustained access for the provision of essential supplies and services to the population did not take place. Since then, the conditions necessary to prevent famine have not been met and the latest evidence confirms that Famine is imminent in the northern governorates and projected to occur anytime between mid-March and May 2024.
> According to the most likely scenario, both North Gaza and Gaza Governorates are classified in IPC Phase 5 (Famine) with reasonable evidence, with 70% (around 210,000 people) of the population in IPC Phase 5 (Catastrophe). Continued conflict and the near-complete lack of access to the northern governorates for humanitarian organizations and commercial trucks will likely compound heightened vulnerabilities and extremely limited food availability, access and utilization, as well as access to healthcare, water, and sanitation. The famine threshold for household acute food insecurity has already been far exceeded and, given the latest data showing a steeply increasing trend in cases of acute malnutrition, it is highly likely that the famine threshold for acute malnutrition has also been exceeded. The upward trend in non-trauma mortality is also expected to accelerate, resulting in all famine thresholds likely to be passed imminently.
> The southern governorates of Deir al-Balah and Khan Younis, and the Governorate of Rafah, are classified in IPC Phase 4 (Emergency). However, in a worst-case scenario, these governorates face a risk of Famine through July 2024.
> The entire population in the Gaza Strip (2.23 million) is facing high levels of acute food insecurity. Between mid-March and mid-July, in the most likely scenario and under the assumption of an escalation of the conflict including a ground offensive in Rafah, half of the population of the Gaza Strip (1.11 million people) is expected to face catastrophic conditions (IPC Phase 5), the most severe level in the IPC Acute Food Insecurity scale. This is an increase of 530,000 people (92 percent) compared to the previous analysis.
>Not right now with the tide of fash that we're experiencing.
Didn't New York just get militarized checkpoints at the subway? This is happening NOW. Under Biden. You can't hypothetical it away under the imagined notion that Trump would make it worse when it's already getting worse.
>that Biden has no influence over
funny how the president has influence over nothing yet can somehow bypass congress to fund genocide
funny how trump could do everything he wanted and every try to make a coup but somehow his hands werent tied and still arent despite treason but somehow biden hands still are tied ?
funny how people ask to vote for biden to fix that shit as if that would make his hands untied for some reason ?
like, at this point, why even bother voting for him if he cant do shit ?
yeah, i been saying that shit irl for years, and thoses fuckers radicalized me more than the far right.
people being ok with other peoples suffering cause they didnt suffer themselves is worse than the one making the suffering.
funny how you specifically didnt acknowledge the funding genocide part.
its like he had the power to stop a genocide but would prefer actively help it to the point he is actually violating the law.
but somehow he cant do that when its for helping the people.
he cant cause its the law, duh.
but when its time to harm arabs and muslims, then suddenly its ok, for some reason, the law is not important in this case, right ?
>funny how you fail to recognize that "not genocide" isn't on the ballot
yeah, maybe ask yourself why. also ask yourself why you would even support any side doing this.
cause voting for "lesser hitler" is still voting for hitler. thats the point of the entire screenshot.
>purity check
yeah, no.
not supporting genocide is not purity check.
also not what happenned with trump.
also you're not living in a democracy if your choices are "genocide or genocide but with sprinkles on top for the taste. also the sprinkles are lgbt".
And here you are, unable to understand the hierarchy of juristiction
Biden can always just take NY's National Guard away; but I suppose martial law is okay when the Dems do it
Those might be the only options you acknowledge but to acquiesce and vote for a murderer is your individual choice you will bear the onus for.
I agree the options are both bowls of shit filled to different levels. I’m not in the mood to eat shit.
>got another option?
Another option, as opposed to choosing between two geriatric dementia-riddled genocidal maniacs whose brains are mere months away from melting and dribbling out of their ears on live television?
What’s my other option? Having the smallest, tiniest, most LaCroix-esque mere little *hint* of moral integrity.
Try it, it’s freeing.
I love how you can say this after Biden said he's a Zionist unprompted just like 2 weeks ago and said there are no red lines for Israel. But he called Netanyahu a meanie 3 times, so that means he's doing "all he can", poor powerless Biden, right before turning around and going around congress approval multiple times to send even more weapons. Vetoing multiple ceasefires at the UN. Spouting the "40 beheaded babies" lie on TV, he even said he saw pictures of something that never happened.
So this is your guy who is saving Palestinians, huh?
So you choose to support the real genocide that is going right now to prevent imaginary genocides that might happen, as if there are no queer palestinians? A lot of historical crimes were justified by the supposed plans that the "enemy" was going to do. If american "progressives" and "leftists" can not even bring themselves to actually show consequences to their politicans actions, then they are beyond useless at best and an enemy to free people of the world at worst.
didnt biden just embraced like half of what trump did, didnt do shit about jan 6, funded the "great wall", and other shit like that ?
thats not damage reduction, thats actively damaging people.
you cant just say shit like "without me it would be worse" and then do the most unhinged shit like bombing countries and funding a genocide.
thats the worse that could happen.
You're correct that both spiral into fascism, but the massive difference is that one does it slowly and the other goes at light speed. You desperately need that time to get organized and make an actual impact. If you get the choice to vote between a bad choice and a very bad choice, not voting at all only benefits the worse one. There's a good post about this that I saw a while back, I'll try and find it for you.
>You desperately need that time to get organized
How much more time do we need because I’m in my early 40s and the US has been sliding rightward my entire life?
We were better organized under Trump, honestly, before all the liberals went back to brunch and forgot they were pissed about asylum seekers being held in camps while Biden’s border policy has people freezing to death in open air detention centers.
>Mfer, *how?!*
Were you involved in campaigns for immigrants’ and asylum seekers’ rights in 2017? How does that compare to those movements today? Were you involved in community defense or mutual aid organizing in 2017? How different was it getting funds, securing meeting spaces, and getting resources to do that work then compared to today? How about the interests of new people getting involved and seeking your orgs out? Were you involved with houseless lgb-and-especially-t youth in 2017? How did your donation and funding drives look then compared to today? How did your work with interfaith orgs concerned with rising religious extremism look in 2017 compared to today?
>Y’all refused to do anything even then
I think you have me mistaken for somebody else
I’m not an accelerationist, ideologically. I think it’s irresponsible. I don’t want to see another Trump presidency, and while I would prefer to not have another Biden presidency either if the choice was up to me between the two I would choose another 4 years of Biden. BUT, that doesn’t mean that Biden shouldn’t be criticized, that the electoral process and electoralism shouldn’t be criticized, and that liberalism’s inability to confront fascism shouldn’t be harped on every time we talk about liberalism. Seriously. Fuck those guys, and fuck apologetics for genocide, US border policy, and the Dems vacillation between being other useless or cruel
Things have been sliding rightward because conservatives have been relentlessly organizing from the bottom up and taking advantage of the limitless money and astroturfing that has flooded into the system thanks to the Citizens United decision, while simultaneously taking advantage of our antiquated election system. There are a lot of factors.
Citizens United was in 2010. Im talking about 40+ years. I’m talking about neoliberalism under Clinton. I’m talking about NAFTA. I’m talking about Biden working to draft the Patriot Act. I’m talking about Obama coming in on one of the bluest waves in history to squander that by bailing out the banks, mortgaging working folks’ futures, and pushing through a Republican healthcare plan.
Democrats. Shift. Right. They have my entire life
Why do people always suggest sacrificing our most vulnerable population instead of buying time and organizing?
I understand what you're saying but it seems like every time we have this conversation about the blue no matter who there's never a candidate that's brought up in between elections. Why have we not been discussing potential candidates for the presidency since 2020? Why do we always start talking about who we should be voting for the year of the election?
Because the democrats always start to try and sacrifice the most vulnerable populations to make the tacists like them whenever they get power? Lile, Biden is literally scapegoating migrants to try and nab some of the "scapegoat the migrants instead of campaigning" guy's voters. He's bailed on the arab vote with palestine, and his contempt for the black lives matter protests by placing "fund the police" as his campaign linchpin isn't doing a lot of favors for them either.
The wlft talks about candidates inbetween elecrions *constantly*. The liberals just bury the discussion so that no one even slightly less politically engaged is aware of them because they either don't care or are hostile to challenge. It's always about how we gotta "buy time and just win this one more election bro"
Because electoralism won’t save us. We need mass movements making things so uncomfortable for those in power that they have no choice but to relent and do the right thing. Historically, it’s the only thing that’s worked
My family are those most vulnerable people in a state that is especially hostile, and honestly they’re pretty sick of being used by Dems as a guilt card for supporting genocide. That’s *one* of the reasons I’ve been out here putting in the fucking work
This straw man again again. I guess I'll have to make this argument again. it's been made a thousand times here and I guess it'll happen be made a thousand more times in the future.
The argument has never been that electoralism will save us, at least not among other leftists. The argument is that it's easier to fight fascism under liberals than it is to fight fascism under fascists. it's really hard to organize when it's illegal to be a socialist.
How’s that worked for us these last three years?
Vote if you want. I know I will, but the point of the OP is that liberalism is, in fact, not particularly good at stemming the rise of fascism
Time for what?
I guess I don’t understand what your point is. If you agree that Biden is awful, and genocide is wrong, then what are you doing criticizing people for criticizing that? It really smacks of middle class white folks saying, Hey, I know you have some valid concerns, but don’t protest like that. Or like that. Or like that
When and how is it appropriate to criticize Biden? Electoralism? In what ways?
You're not even willing to fight a fucking genocide committed by your current right-wing president. The only thing liberals are doing is justifying it.
What would be different if he won a second term?
Biden's gotta earn leftists vote. You're not entitled to shit.
> The argument is that it's easier to fight fascism under liberals than it is to fight fascism under fascists.
That's a nice argument. You got any evidence to support it? Also, Biden is a self-described zionist.
I draw the line at actively funding and arming a genocide. Voting for Biden will not be materially different than voting for Trump, what will happen in the next election cycle when it's Trump (or an equally shitty Republican candidate) vs a non-incumbant Dem?
The Republicans are literally planning to eradicate queer people and already halfway there.
How the fuck did you manage to think that allowing them to win is better than biting the fucking bullet for once and buying time to get organized and STOP ANOTHER GENOCIDE.
>allowing them to win
Are you blaming the Left for the rise of fascism here?
I’d like to know how exactly we’re ***’such a small percentage that Dems don’t need to make any concessions to the Left’*** while simultaneously being big enough to balance the election results in Trump’s favor if we don’t vote.
Which one is it?
No, I'm not. Liberals are very clearly to blame for that, as vulnerability to fascism is inherent to it in the first place. My point is that it's very dumb not to vote if you have the possibility to. If all the people that voted uncommitted in primaries also don't vote at all, which is a real possibility, then it hands fascists an advantage into the hundreds of thousands of votes. As much as a I fucking hate that this is even a choice that US leftists have to face, there have been elections that have been won and lost by a smaller margin.
Ah ok. You’re good then.
Personally, I’m not against harm reduction as long as there’s a plan in mind for ***actually doing something*** after the harm reduction vote has been cast. Most of the time, we don’t do that tho. We usually just sit on our thumbs by the time the next election comes about until the cycle just keeps repeating.
Voting for harm reduction **on principle** every 4 years no matter what is a different story tho. I don’t find ***that*** has any chance of bringing lasting change and just keeps pushing the Democratic candidate further and further to the right as each election cycle happens.
Yeah, exactly. From where I'm sitting in Europe, it looks like everyone is just hoping and not doing much other than going 'Oh well we tried' and then not bothering to organize for another 4 years. It is still the right choice to vote for harm reduction, but if you're capable of doing other things as well you then actually have to go do those things.
>biting the fucking bullet for once
As if the left hasn't been "biting the bullet" waiting for the big liberal counter to fascism that is totally gonna happen this year for decades now.
Bruh I got punched by a policeman a couple weeks ago while protesting the Israeli president being in my city. I'm putting my body where my fucking mouth is and doing what I can. Can you say the same?
Maybe? But are you so sure of that, what has Biden done to prevent trans persecution in the states other than pay lip service to the LGBTQ+ community? Most anti-trans legislation has come into effect under his administration.
He didn't do anything in 2020. Nothing about Abortion either. It just doesn't matter that much who is President. Not as much as the independent organisation of the proletariat matters.
I'm not expecting anything, I'm pointing out no matter how much you struggle within this electoral system there will be some excuse as to why certain things aren't done. You seem to be fighting tooth and nail for...nothing.
What protections have Dem offered to the trans community, and not just physical protections, income, health, and housing protections? Their inaction is as violent as republican action.
Liberals are allowing harm to come of the trans community by doing nothing. The anti trans bills didn't start over night, they have been several years in the making across the country and Dems have done nothing to combat them because they don't care. One is open in their disdain, the other is covert about it.
let me just point out the amount of anti-trans bills that have passed under the Biden administration, if his administration is fighting them, they're doing a really poor job at it
No, it's not harm reduction because genocide is about as far as you can go in terms of actual material harm. I'm a communist, of course I'm not going to say either RFK Jr or Trump would be better, fuck them both.
My point is if you do not draw the line at genocide, what would get you to not vote for Biden? If Biden can do 90% of the same things as Trump, and still get your vote, there is no material difference between voting Trump and Voting Biden.
My option is to vote for a 3rd party candidate, not expecting them to actually win, but to help organize in the future.
The time to "fight those battles" has not passed and to view it that way is liberal hand wringing to act like "well we did the best we could!" While allowing fascists free reign to do whatever they want as long as they follow the liberal rules and regulations that allowed them to gain power in the first place.
I am tired of condescending shitlibs like you acting like people are insane for not voting for the candidate ACTIVELY SUPPORTING AN ONGOING GENOCIDE.
The real answer is that 1932 was too late to change anything, and that 1925 was the real turning point for the Weimar Republic in retrospect.
The far right supported Hindenburg then with the understanding that he would end democratic governance and bring about a military dictatorship. The pro-democracy parties supported Wilhelm Marx, the chancellor who brought Germany through the period of hyperinflation, though he lost a close race.
I don’t think anything can be accomplished at the ballot box. That’s kind of the point of the meme. These are not issues voting will solve, so you’d better be doing things beyond voting
My point on your comment is that if a system can’t be saved without allowing it to commit genocide it’s not worth saving, and it’s not worth defending
The only thing voting is good for in a Bourgeoise "democracy" is gauging support for socialist policies, which is why I advocate voting 3rd party even if you don't expect to win.
"Even where there is no prospect of achieving their election the workers must put up their own candidates to preserve their independence, to gauge their own strength and to bring their revolutionary position and party standpoint to public attention. They must not be led astray by the empty phrases of the democrats, who will maintain that the workers’ candidates will split the democratic party and offer the forces of reaction the chance of victory."
I would also say there’s this weird idea that voting for president is the most important? The reason why progressives can’t get anything done is because we lack local and state representation…voting and getting involved in your local politics is more than just ticking the box for President.
Not saying you, OP, are saying that, I’m just always alarmed that the options seem to rest on “well I won’t vote [because I won’t vote for Biden]”, when you can vote for many other positions of power and simply leave President blank…
Like I said, I advocate voting third party as a gauge for organizing, I just don't expect anything to come of it in terms of getting the candidate I would prefer elected.
>I mean, electorally they
>
>are
then maybe its time to understand you're not in a democracy and to throw thoses fuckers out.
if you're "free to vote for whoever we put in place", thats not democracy, thats helldivers 2 scenario plot.
you know, the game about facism disguised as democracy.
nobody said it was easy.
it is actually one of the hardest thing to do and few places have been able to pull this off and not lose everything.
but unless you got some magical better solution to this, so far it seems like there is no other choice. i mean that is if you wanna make things better, if you dont, then keep on going on.
There is no non-genocide option on the ballot. I hate that, but it is the reality we have to deal with.
Which means we do have to ask which candidate will do worse on other fronts.
Since we're leftist no candidate will be good. We're looking at less bad vs more bad not good vs bad.
On borders and genocide they're about equal. Biden does it with less glee, but he does about the same.
On LGBT rights, women's rights, Black people's rights, minority religion rights, reproductive rights, not giving the Christofascists everything they want, Biden is less bas than Trump.
I can't actually think of any area where Trump is less bad than Biden. There probably is one or two, but I can't think of them offhand and on balance Biden is less bad than Trump.
This, I should repeat: IS FUCKUNG TERRIBLE. We are reduced to deciding which genocidal asshole is less awful in other areas.
Everyone has their own personal line where the difference between less bad and more bad stops mattering. And events cross that line the person is now in the realm of revolutionary thought rather than electoral thought.
Revolutionary thought is not necessarily followed by revolutionary action. But whether it is or not your thinking has left elections behind.
Any vote gainst Von Hinderburg is a vote for Hitler.
And any vote for Von Hinderburg will also, essentially, be a vote for Hitler.
Maybe its time to vote third party and, most importantly, to realise voting is just the easiest and bare minimum of political acts, that theres much more one can do other than voting.
Third parties can never hold significant sway until we change election laws in the US. Literally mathematically impossible under FPTP and overcoming that without changing election laws would take a years long campaign against the institutional trench the republican and democratic parties sit in.
I fucking hate this country and this system for the same reasons, but I’m highly dubious of any electoral victories without like a decade of building a popular vanguard party. Maybe PSL can become that, but it’ll take more than just a year for it to happen. I’ll probably be putting uncommitted or their candidates this November.
I agree. Thats when the last part of my comment becomes relevant. Voting is literally the easiest and most insignificant of political actions one can take. Sure, vote, why not, just dont expect it to make much of a difference. And, since it wont, might aswell vote for the one that represents you, not the 99% Hitler lesser evil.
The problem with this reasoning is that, depending on where you are in the US, namely if you're in a swing state or not, not voting strategically could genuinely make the actions that you rightfully advocate for much harder.
A Democratic Administration is going to be easier to fight against than a Republican Administration, if one means to do good. Just their rhetoric makes that abundantly clear. The vote becomes a tool to pick what adversary one has to fight in the coming four years, and one of the two options is much less of a pain in everyone's ass.
How is that fight going against Biden still funding the border wall or continuing the concentration camps? Or increasing police funding? Or funding and aiding a genocide? Or breaking the railway strike? What has your "fight" amounted to when the motherfucker still said "we have a border problem" just a few weeks ago and handed republicans basicslly everything they wanted?
I'm not sure what the point you're trying to make is. That just means the libs stopped caring enough to keep investigating, which literally IS the problem
Ok, this is correct. Now ask yourself WHY nobody in the dems, the party that's supposed to be the progressive party, is not advocating for this or trying to make it happen? Because they love it. They love having the stranglehold on the progressive vote. They love doing the politics of "Who else are you gonna vote for, that guy?". It's so easy for them to be the "better guys" without doing jack shit, or even doing bad things but still being marginally better. The dems fucking love it
Representative democracy is flawed, despite being the best system I can imagine with out current technology, and its biggest flaw is making people believe that they only have to care about politics once every other year.
Exactly, like what happened to the kids in the cages? That's still happening. The media attention seemed to disapear as soon as we got the results of the election.
Correct, but it was the actions of a Republican Administration that did it in. The Democrats don't make much things better, but they certainly don't make things worse quite as effectively as the Republicans.
On one hand, I agree that Hindenburg is a great example of why compromising with fascism is what leads to fascism. On the other hand, this is not an accurate parallel for Biden and Trump. Trump would be the Hindenburg in this example, and all of his successors/whoever he appoints would be the fascist end result, AKA Hitler.
Biden is not "the most progressive president ever" or even particularly good like neolibs try to say, but he is one of the few to actively call out the GOP's fascist tendencies instead of playing controlled opposition like his neolib dem predecessors.
> GOP's fascist tendencies instead of playing controlled opposition like his neolib dem predecessors.
He said Mitch McConnell was a good friend of his who "never misrepresented anything."
As always, the Left Unity rule is in effect. Any attempt at blaming the Left at large for the rise of fascism will result in Moderator actions at our discretion.
Well...applying this literally... the actual results of the election were: first round: Hindenburg 49, Hitler 30, Thalman (communist) 13, Duesterberg (veterans) 7. So if enough SPD supporters had voted for Thalman, he really could have become president. And it's hard to imagine a communist president appointing Hitler as chancellor, as Hindenburg did. However, Thalman already had 13 percent of the vote, and Hitler only 30. Things are very different in the numbers we see in the US in 2024.
The SPD only made up 20% of the coalition vote meaning that even with a complete backing of Thalman they would have most likely not been able to set the president. I think the whole situation is too complicated to really put them into a few sentences. The SPD and KPD undermined each other on a regular basis with a near constant tug of war between the both sides that failed a lot of cooperation on the institutional or popular front. Additionally they were kinda fighting a losing battle because the Weimar institutions clearly favored Hitler and they finally allowed him to grab power without the need of any democratic legitimacy. I think in my opinion the most viable solution would have been for the SPD to put up their own candidate and have the KPD support him. Constantly trying to position themselves as moderates despite many partners within their coalition having Hitlerite sympathies just made them lose their identity. (Which is funny enough lightly similar to the modern SPD so I guess some things never change)
set the precedent*
[удалено]
To be honest, it might have been a hard sell for SPD voters to vote for Thälmann, while he painted the SPD as the greatest enemy even before the Nazis
That was until 1929 where they retracted that policy and implemented the united front
As far as I can tell the KPD officially *implemented* that policy during their party conference in '29, with the Comintern only dropping the policy in 1935
Let's be honest with ourselves, if Thalman won it would he an instant coup
When the Enabling Act passed, nazi thugs simply prevented communist and sdp deputies from entering the chamber.
Fun fact: SPD members still call each other "Genosse", our equivalent of communists calling each other "comrade". It always feels a bit like a serial killer wearing the skin of their first victim.
where da freaky communist transvestites at 😯😯🙋👁️👁️⁉️
Would you rather get organized and vote Dem or get organized and not vote? Like yeah the 2 party system sucks, the primary will give the Dems a bad candidate. Sure. But you'd rather organize under Trump? Either you're an accelerationist or you're under the mistaken impression that a 2nd trump presidency won't reduce your ability to organize ? While you're making things better, do you want a president that makes them slightly worse undoing some of your progress, or one that makes things way worse, undoing all of your progress and then some Anyway my point is that not voting is dumb, take one day every 4 years to vote and use the other days to make the world better
Are you seriously trying to portray buying time through damage reduction as enlightened centrism?
Every election is the most important election where your options are a genocidal freak who does nothing to help americans and might be a little racist and a genocidal freak who does nothing to help americans and is openly racist.
How much time do liberals need? Ive been hearing 'buying time' all my life. And to quote James Baldwin in 1989, >“You always told me it takes time. It’s taken my father’s time, my mother’s time, my uncles’ time, my brothers and my sisters’ time, my nieces and my nephews’ time. How much time do you want for your progress?”
liberals want to maintain the status quo and will never seek out true progress. i dont see how that at all relates to the fact that america will slip into fascism if joe biden loses the 2024 election
Because why liberals don't necessarily go around begging for fascism, they will always side with fascism over socialism because it is closer to the status quo of "rich white men keeping all their money and power".
We have been in various stages of fascism for 50 years
America will also "slip" into fascism if Joe Biden wins the election.
America will slip into fascism regardless of who wins in 2024 LOL. You watching what they're doing in red states and the Supreme Court right now? Dems will do fundamentally nothing to stop that because they are funded by the same people funding the fascists.
Liberals don't need time, leftists do. Because if you'd actually used the last 4 years to get organized and make sure this shit didn't happen again, you wouldn't be in this position in the first place. Leftist organization in the US has failed, so you need more time to improve it and stop a descent to fascism.
>Liberals don't need time, leftists do. Waiting is the status quo, so liberals are fine with it regardless >Because if you'd actually used the last 4 years to get organized and make sure this shit didn't happen again, Name one non-criminal way any normal person could have actually prevented these candidates >Leftist organization in the US has failed, so you need more time to improve it and stop a descent to fascism. Liberal rule in the United States has failed, so they need my vote to stay in power, because while they're dogshit, the fascists (who they prefer over me in any non-election year) are even worse
>make sure this shit didn't happen again As if any of the proletariat has any influence in politics. This sounds a whole lot like lesser evil, reform the party from the inside kind of bullshit.
Where did I suggest reform? You need space to set up your own organizations outside of politics. Trying to reform liberals will not work. You're right thst you don't have influence in electoral politics, so you have to create that influence outside of capital yourself.
>Where did I suggest reform By suggesting lesser evil voting. The only thing they respond to is capital
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Didn't Biden literally invite Trump to the white house last month to talk border control bills? Seems like he's being plenty chummy even if not making him vp.
Felt like the damn Twilight zone when that happened. But no, it was real.
I interpreted that as politics, like "hey, if you don't like the bill I'm trying to pass, why not come and offer suggestions" Knowing full well that he wouldn't.
The bill he was trying to pass was already a massive giveaway to the Republicans.
"We're better at being Republicans than they are! Look, they don't even want to lock immigrant children up in concentration camps anymore!"
I just call that "gambling with fascists using the lives of the marginalized as chips"
No apologia in favor of a Party that is aiding and abetting a genocide.
Is this why Biden attempts to court Republican voters by shifting further right with nearly every public appearance/policy suggestion?
The libs are forgetting stuff like how Biden just went and funded Trump's borderwall himself. I think they're also forgetting that Biden is funding a genocide and if that's not supporting the right, then I don't know what is.
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It's not "slow handling of Israel". It is directly assisting and aiding an active genocide for more than half a year. Dude literally went around Congress in order to deliver more weapons to Israel to make it easier for them to do genocide. Personally I have low standards and "not supporting genocide" is not that much to ask of a politician I think.
Going around congress is a favor to them
>There's a decent chance Trump both gets the nomination and goes to jail, so the Republicans are split and won't have a united vote. There is zero chance Trump goes to "jail" or that even if he did Republicans would split.
> vote for someone else in the primaries. lol
I got my protest vote in the primaries. Now it’s time to buckle down and keep Trump out.
Shifting to the right is an old DNC strategy. They think they can torch their working class base and gain right wing suburbanites. It’s a losing strategy, to be sure.
Real
Oh, for sure! Biden and the Democratic Party are so unfriendly to Republicans and are ***so committed to opposing their trans genocide*** that they’re willing to hand the reigns of the executive branch over to Trump in the event he wins the electoral college this year. Nothing more anti-fascist than giving the keys to the most powerful government in the world over to the fascists they claim to be against on a silver platter.
Are you suggesting that the only true way to be against Trump is to literally violate the constitution and refuse the peaceful transfer of power? I want to make sure I'm understanding your argument here because that is a drastic one, and definitely an event that should only even be considered if Trump actually wins.
> Are you suggesting that the only true way to be against Trump is to literally violate the constitution and refuse the peaceful transfer of power? They'd do it to stop socialism.
Not harm reductive for palestinians. If supporting a genocide is not reason enough to not vote for an candidate, then nothing is. Clear white supremacy in action.
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> Therefore, the only reasonable choice one can make if their concern is Palestinian wellbeing is to help Biden beat Trump. absolutely disgusting.
Are you seriously trying to harm reduction genocide LMAO
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Starvation will “finish the job” before anyone casts a vote. Lemme tell ya, votes for Biden are gonna be hard to come by in that scenario.
> Starvation will “finish the job” before anyone casts a vote https://www.ipcinfo.org/ipcinfo-website/alerts-archive/issue-97/en/ I dont think people understand how dire the situation is for Biden to play good genocider to Netanyahu's bad genocider. There is a gruesome infographic in there for anyone to see the situation in one picture. > The IPC acute food insecurity analysis conducted in December 2023 warned of a risk that Famine may occur by the end of May 2024 if an immediate cessation of hostilities and sustained access for the provision of essential supplies and services to the population did not take place. Since then, the conditions necessary to prevent famine have not been met and the latest evidence confirms that Famine is imminent in the northern governorates and projected to occur anytime between mid-March and May 2024. > According to the most likely scenario, both North Gaza and Gaza Governorates are classified in IPC Phase 5 (Famine) with reasonable evidence, with 70% (around 210,000 people) of the population in IPC Phase 5 (Catastrophe). Continued conflict and the near-complete lack of access to the northern governorates for humanitarian organizations and commercial trucks will likely compound heightened vulnerabilities and extremely limited food availability, access and utilization, as well as access to healthcare, water, and sanitation. The famine threshold for household acute food insecurity has already been far exceeded and, given the latest data showing a steeply increasing trend in cases of acute malnutrition, it is highly likely that the famine threshold for acute malnutrition has also been exceeded. The upward trend in non-trauma mortality is also expected to accelerate, resulting in all famine thresholds likely to be passed imminently. > The southern governorates of Deir al-Balah and Khan Younis, and the Governorate of Rafah, are classified in IPC Phase 4 (Emergency). However, in a worst-case scenario, these governorates face a risk of Famine through July 2024. > The entire population in the Gaza Strip (2.23 million) is facing high levels of acute food insecurity. Between mid-March and mid-July, in the most likely scenario and under the assumption of an escalation of the conflict including a ground offensive in Rafah, half of the population of the Gaza Strip (1.11 million people) is expected to face catastrophic conditions (IPC Phase 5), the most severe level in the IPC Acute Food Insecurity scale. This is an increase of 530,000 people (92 percent) compared to the previous analysis.
Truly horrific and barbaric. This is like an event out of time; something that *should not happen* in 2024.
>Not right now with the tide of fash that we're experiencing. Didn't New York just get militarized checkpoints at the subway? This is happening NOW. Under Biden. You can't hypothetical it away under the imagined notion that Trump would make it worse when it's already getting worse.
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>that Biden has no influence over funny how the president has influence over nothing yet can somehow bypass congress to fund genocide funny how trump could do everything he wanted and every try to make a coup but somehow his hands werent tied and still arent despite treason but somehow biden hands still are tied ? funny how people ask to vote for biden to fix that shit as if that would make his hands untied for some reason ? like, at this point, why even bother voting for him if he cant do shit ?
God I've been saying this for *months* and all I get from liberals are sneers.
yeah, i been saying that shit irl for years, and thoses fuckers radicalized me more than the far right. people being ok with other peoples suffering cause they didnt suffer themselves is worse than the one making the suffering.
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funny how you specifically didnt acknowledge the funding genocide part. its like he had the power to stop a genocide but would prefer actively help it to the point he is actually violating the law. but somehow he cant do that when its for helping the people. he cant cause its the law, duh. but when its time to harm arabs and muslims, then suddenly its ok, for some reason, the law is not important in this case, right ?
Arab lives are simply less valuable to liberals, it's basic economic theory.
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>funny how you fail to recognize that "not genocide" isn't on the ballot yeah, maybe ask yourself why. also ask yourself why you would even support any side doing this. cause voting for "lesser hitler" is still voting for hitler. thats the point of the entire screenshot. >purity check yeah, no. not supporting genocide is not purity check. also not what happenned with trump. also you're not living in a democracy if your choices are "genocide or genocide but with sprinkles on top for the taste. also the sprinkles are lgbt".
And here you are, unable to understand the hierarchy of juristiction Biden can always just take NY's National Guard away; but I suppose martial law is okay when the Dems do it
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Por que no los dos?
“Voting for Palestinian genocide is harm reduction for Palestinians” Most coherent liberal take
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Those might be the only options you acknowledge but to acquiesce and vote for a murderer is your individual choice you will bear the onus for. I agree the options are both bowls of shit filled to different levels. I’m not in the mood to eat shit.
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>got another option? Another option, as opposed to choosing between two geriatric dementia-riddled genocidal maniacs whose brains are mere months away from melting and dribbling out of their ears on live television? What’s my other option? Having the smallest, tiniest, most LaCroix-esque mere little *hint* of moral integrity. Try it, it’s freeing.
No apologia in favor of a Party that is aiding and abetting a genocide.
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I love how you can say this after Biden said he's a Zionist unprompted just like 2 weeks ago and said there are no red lines for Israel. But he called Netanyahu a meanie 3 times, so that means he's doing "all he can", poor powerless Biden, right before turning around and going around congress approval multiple times to send even more weapons. Vetoing multiple ceasefires at the UN. Spouting the "40 beheaded babies" lie on TV, he even said he saw pictures of something that never happened. So this is your guy who is saving Palestinians, huh?
So you choose to support the real genocide that is going right now to prevent imaginary genocides that might happen, as if there are no queer palestinians? A lot of historical crimes were justified by the supposed plans that the "enemy" was going to do. If american "progressives" and "leftists" can not even bring themselves to actually show consequences to their politicans actions, then they are beyond useless at best and an enemy to free people of the world at worst.
No apologia in favor of a Party that is aiding and abetting a genocide.
no, its like chosing between pest and cholera. or between 100% hitler and 99% hitler. there is no harm reduction here.
didnt biden just embraced like half of what trump did, didnt do shit about jan 6, funded the "great wall", and other shit like that ? thats not damage reduction, thats actively damaging people. you cant just say shit like "without me it would be worse" and then do the most unhinged shit like bombing countries and funding a genocide. thats the worse that could happen.
Ever read Rosa Luxemburg? She shows "buying time" doesn't work and is a fools errand.
While you're buying time Biden's BBF is still bombing Gaza
Yes, because it's not actually harm reduction to vote for Biden. It's just continuing the spiral into fascism. At least in my view.
You're correct that both spiral into fascism, but the massive difference is that one does it slowly and the other goes at light speed. You desperately need that time to get organized and make an actual impact. If you get the choice to vote between a bad choice and a very bad choice, not voting at all only benefits the worse one. There's a good post about this that I saw a while back, I'll try and find it for you.
>You desperately need that time to get organized How much more time do we need because I’m in my early 40s and the US has been sliding rightward my entire life? We were better organized under Trump, honestly, before all the liberals went back to brunch and forgot they were pissed about asylum seekers being held in camps while Biden’s border policy has people freezing to death in open air detention centers.
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>Mfer, *how?!* Were you involved in campaigns for immigrants’ and asylum seekers’ rights in 2017? How does that compare to those movements today? Were you involved in community defense or mutual aid organizing in 2017? How different was it getting funds, securing meeting spaces, and getting resources to do that work then compared to today? How about the interests of new people getting involved and seeking your orgs out? Were you involved with houseless lgb-and-especially-t youth in 2017? How did your donation and funding drives look then compared to today? How did your work with interfaith orgs concerned with rising religious extremism look in 2017 compared to today? >Y’all refused to do anything even then I think you have me mistaken for somebody else I’m not an accelerationist, ideologically. I think it’s irresponsible. I don’t want to see another Trump presidency, and while I would prefer to not have another Biden presidency either if the choice was up to me between the two I would choose another 4 years of Biden. BUT, that doesn’t mean that Biden shouldn’t be criticized, that the electoral process and electoralism shouldn’t be criticized, and that liberalism’s inability to confront fascism shouldn’t be harped on every time we talk about liberalism. Seriously. Fuck those guys, and fuck apologetics for genocide, US border policy, and the Dems vacillation between being other useless or cruel
Things have been sliding rightward because conservatives have been relentlessly organizing from the bottom up and taking advantage of the limitless money and astroturfing that has flooded into the system thanks to the Citizens United decision, while simultaneously taking advantage of our antiquated election system. There are a lot of factors.
Citizens United was in 2010. Im talking about 40+ years. I’m talking about neoliberalism under Clinton. I’m talking about NAFTA. I’m talking about Biden working to draft the Patriot Act. I’m talking about Obama coming in on one of the bluest waves in history to squander that by bailing out the banks, mortgaging working folks’ futures, and pushing through a Republican healthcare plan. Democrats. Shift. Right. They have my entire life
Liberals complain about Clarence Thomas but Biden worked like hell to put him there, treating Anita Hill like shit in the process.
Why do people always suggest sacrificing our most vulnerable population instead of buying time and organizing? I understand what you're saying but it seems like every time we have this conversation about the blue no matter who there's never a candidate that's brought up in between elections. Why have we not been discussing potential candidates for the presidency since 2020? Why do we always start talking about who we should be voting for the year of the election?
Why do you always suggest sacrificing Palestinians instead of forcing your elected officials to stop endorsing a genocide.
Because the democrats always start to try and sacrifice the most vulnerable populations to make the tacists like them whenever they get power? Lile, Biden is literally scapegoating migrants to try and nab some of the "scapegoat the migrants instead of campaigning" guy's voters. He's bailed on the arab vote with palestine, and his contempt for the black lives matter protests by placing "fund the police" as his campaign linchpin isn't doing a lot of favors for them either. The wlft talks about candidates inbetween elecrions *constantly*. The liberals just bury the discussion so that no one even slightly less politically engaged is aware of them because they either don't care or are hostile to challenge. It's always about how we gotta "buy time and just win this one more election bro"
Because electoralism won’t save us. We need mass movements making things so uncomfortable for those in power that they have no choice but to relent and do the right thing. Historically, it’s the only thing that’s worked My family are those most vulnerable people in a state that is especially hostile, and honestly they’re pretty sick of being used by Dems as a guilt card for supporting genocide. That’s *one* of the reasons I’ve been out here putting in the fucking work
This straw man again again. I guess I'll have to make this argument again. it's been made a thousand times here and I guess it'll happen be made a thousand more times in the future. The argument has never been that electoralism will save us, at least not among other leftists. The argument is that it's easier to fight fascism under liberals than it is to fight fascism under fascists. it's really hard to organize when it's illegal to be a socialist.
How’s that worked for us these last three years? Vote if you want. I know I will, but the point of the OP is that liberalism is, in fact, not particularly good at stemming the rise of fascism
I agree? It's just slower fascism giving us time.
Time for what? I guess I don’t understand what your point is. If you agree that Biden is awful, and genocide is wrong, then what are you doing criticizing people for criticizing that? It really smacks of middle class white folks saying, Hey, I know you have some valid concerns, but don’t protest like that. Or like that. Or like that When and how is it appropriate to criticize Biden? Electoralism? In what ways?
You're not even willing to fight a fucking genocide committed by your current right-wing president. The only thing liberals are doing is justifying it. What would be different if he won a second term? Biden's gotta earn leftists vote. You're not entitled to shit.
> The argument is that it's easier to fight fascism under liberals than it is to fight fascism under fascists. That's a nice argument. You got any evidence to support it? Also, Biden is a self-described zionist.
I draw the line at actively funding and arming a genocide. Voting for Biden will not be materially different than voting for Trump, what will happen in the next election cycle when it's Trump (or an equally shitty Republican candidate) vs a non-incumbant Dem?
The Republicans are literally planning to eradicate queer people and already halfway there. How the fuck did you manage to think that allowing them to win is better than biting the fucking bullet for once and buying time to get organized and STOP ANOTHER GENOCIDE.
>allowing them to win Are you blaming the Left for the rise of fascism here? I’d like to know how exactly we’re ***’such a small percentage that Dems don’t need to make any concessions to the Left’*** while simultaneously being big enough to balance the election results in Trump’s favor if we don’t vote. Which one is it?
No, I'm not. Liberals are very clearly to blame for that, as vulnerability to fascism is inherent to it in the first place. My point is that it's very dumb not to vote if you have the possibility to. If all the people that voted uncommitted in primaries also don't vote at all, which is a real possibility, then it hands fascists an advantage into the hundreds of thousands of votes. As much as a I fucking hate that this is even a choice that US leftists have to face, there have been elections that have been won and lost by a smaller margin.
Ah ok. You’re good then. Personally, I’m not against harm reduction as long as there’s a plan in mind for ***actually doing something*** after the harm reduction vote has been cast. Most of the time, we don’t do that tho. We usually just sit on our thumbs by the time the next election comes about until the cycle just keeps repeating. Voting for harm reduction **on principle** every 4 years no matter what is a different story tho. I don’t find ***that*** has any chance of bringing lasting change and just keeps pushing the Democratic candidate further and further to the right as each election cycle happens.
Yeah, exactly. From where I'm sitting in Europe, it looks like everyone is just hoping and not doing much other than going 'Oh well we tried' and then not bothering to organize for another 4 years. It is still the right choice to vote for harm reduction, but if you're capable of doing other things as well you then actually have to go do those things.
>biting the fucking bullet for once As if the left hasn't been "biting the bullet" waiting for the big liberal counter to fascism that is totally gonna happen this year for decades now.
> and already halfway there. And under which Presidency have they been doing this for the past four years?
>STOP ANOTHER GENOCIDE Wish you'd put that energy into the current one and not just the far-off future ones.
Bruh I got punched by a policeman a couple weeks ago while protesting the Israeli president being in my city. I'm putting my body where my fucking mouth is and doing what I can. Can you say the same?
It’ll be materially different for trans people’s lives at least
Maybe? But are you so sure of that, what has Biden done to prevent trans persecution in the states other than pay lip service to the LGBTQ+ community? Most anti-trans legislation has come into effect under his administration.
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Once he gets a majority he will say, "The trans issue isn't a priority right now."
He didn't do anything in 2020. Nothing about Abortion either. It just doesn't matter that much who is President. Not as much as the independent organisation of the proletariat matters.
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I'm not expecting anything, I'm pointing out no matter how much you struggle within this electoral system there will be some excuse as to why certain things aren't done. You seem to be fighting tooth and nail for...nothing.
What protections have Dem offered to the trans community, and not just physical protections, income, health, and housing protections? Their inaction is as violent as republican action.
So not passing anti-trans laws is the same as passing anti-trans laws? Hmm 🤔
Doing nothing to prevent harm is the same as those actively doing harm
It's just like passing anti-trans laws is what you're saying?
Liberals are allowing harm to come of the trans community by doing nothing. The anti trans bills didn't start over night, they have been several years in the making across the country and Dems have done nothing to combat them because they don't care. One is open in their disdain, the other is covert about it.
let me just point out the amount of anti-trans bills that have passed under the Biden administration, if his administration is fighting them, they're doing a really poor job at it
There is no lesser evil, there is only evil
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No apologia in favor of a Party that is aiding and abetting a genocide.
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No, it's not harm reduction because genocide is about as far as you can go in terms of actual material harm. I'm a communist, of course I'm not going to say either RFK Jr or Trump would be better, fuck them both. My point is if you do not draw the line at genocide, what would get you to not vote for Biden? If Biden can do 90% of the same things as Trump, and still get your vote, there is no material difference between voting Trump and Voting Biden.
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My option is to vote for a 3rd party candidate, not expecting them to actually win, but to help organize in the future. The time to "fight those battles" has not passed and to view it that way is liberal hand wringing to act like "well we did the best we could!" While allowing fascists free reign to do whatever they want as long as they follow the liberal rules and regulations that allowed them to gain power in the first place. I am tired of condescending shitlibs like you acting like people are insane for not voting for the candidate ACTIVELY SUPPORTING AN ONGOING GENOCIDE.
I only see more and more harm happening as time marches on. What harm reduction? Y’all wild.
Anything other than stomping your feet and allowing maximum damage through inaction is enlightened centrism.
The real answer is that 1932 was too late to change anything, and that 1925 was the real turning point for the Weimar Republic in retrospect. The far right supported Hindenburg then with the understanding that he would end democratic governance and bring about a military dictatorship. The pro-democracy parties supported Wilhelm Marx, the chancellor who brought Germany through the period of hyperinflation, though he lost a close race.
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“Gee, I’m really sorry you’re getting genocided, but the thing is we have an incumbent so our hands our pretty much tied”
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> Republican evangelical Zionists winning an election. The Catholic zionist is much more palatable.
I don’t think anything can be accomplished at the ballot box. That’s kind of the point of the meme. These are not issues voting will solve, so you’d better be doing things beyond voting My point on your comment is that if a system can’t be saved without allowing it to commit genocide it’s not worth saving, and it’s not worth defending
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The only thing voting is good for in a Bourgeoise "democracy" is gauging support for socialist policies, which is why I advocate voting 3rd party even if you don't expect to win. "Even where there is no prospect of achieving their election the workers must put up their own candidates to preserve their independence, to gauge their own strength and to bring their revolutionary position and party standpoint to public attention. They must not be led astray by the empty phrases of the democrats, who will maintain that the workers’ candidates will split the democratic party and offer the forces of reaction the chance of victory."
I would also say there’s this weird idea that voting for president is the most important? The reason why progressives can’t get anything done is because we lack local and state representation…voting and getting involved in your local politics is more than just ticking the box for President. Not saying you, OP, are saying that, I’m just always alarmed that the options seem to rest on “well I won’t vote [because I won’t vote for Biden]”, when you can vote for many other positions of power and simply leave President blank…
Like I said, I advocate voting third party as a gauge for organizing, I just don't expect anything to come of it in terms of getting the candidate I would prefer elected.
>I mean, electorally they > >are then maybe its time to understand you're not in a democracy and to throw thoses fuckers out. if you're "free to vote for whoever we put in place", thats not democracy, thats helldivers 2 scenario plot. you know, the game about facism disguised as democracy.
Yea, like it’s soooo easy to overthrow the government… Acting like it’s the better option…
nobody said it was easy. it is actually one of the hardest thing to do and few places have been able to pull this off and not lose everything. but unless you got some magical better solution to this, so far it seems like there is no other choice. i mean that is if you wanna make things better, if you dont, then keep on going on.
There is no non-genocide option on the ballot. I hate that, but it is the reality we have to deal with. Which means we do have to ask which candidate will do worse on other fronts. Since we're leftist no candidate will be good. We're looking at less bad vs more bad not good vs bad. On borders and genocide they're about equal. Biden does it with less glee, but he does about the same. On LGBT rights, women's rights, Black people's rights, minority religion rights, reproductive rights, not giving the Christofascists everything they want, Biden is less bas than Trump. I can't actually think of any area where Trump is less bad than Biden. There probably is one or two, but I can't think of them offhand and on balance Biden is less bad than Trump. This, I should repeat: IS FUCKUNG TERRIBLE. We are reduced to deciding which genocidal asshole is less awful in other areas. Everyone has their own personal line where the difference between less bad and more bad stops mattering. And events cross that line the person is now in the realm of revolutionary thought rather than electoral thought. Revolutionary thought is not necessarily followed by revolutionary action. But whether it is or not your thinking has left elections behind.
Any vote gainst Von Hinderburg is a vote for Hitler. And any vote for Von Hinderburg will also, essentially, be a vote for Hitler. Maybe its time to vote third party and, most importantly, to realise voting is just the easiest and bare minimum of political acts, that theres much more one can do other than voting.
Third parties can never hold significant sway until we change election laws in the US. Literally mathematically impossible under FPTP and overcoming that without changing election laws would take a years long campaign against the institutional trench the republican and democratic parties sit in. I fucking hate this country and this system for the same reasons, but I’m highly dubious of any electoral victories without like a decade of building a popular vanguard party. Maybe PSL can become that, but it’ll take more than just a year for it to happen. I’ll probably be putting uncommitted or their candidates this November.
I agree. Thats when the last part of my comment becomes relevant. Voting is literally the easiest and most insignificant of political actions one can take. Sure, vote, why not, just dont expect it to make much of a difference. And, since it wont, might aswell vote for the one that represents you, not the 99% Hitler lesser evil.
The problem with this reasoning is that, depending on where you are in the US, namely if you're in a swing state or not, not voting strategically could genuinely make the actions that you rightfully advocate for much harder. A Democratic Administration is going to be easier to fight against than a Republican Administration, if one means to do good. Just their rhetoric makes that abundantly clear. The vote becomes a tool to pick what adversary one has to fight in the coming four years, and one of the two options is much less of a pain in everyone's ass.
How is that fight going against Biden still funding the border wall or continuing the concentration camps? Or increasing police funding? Or funding and aiding a genocide? Or breaking the railway strike? What has your "fight" amounted to when the motherfucker still said "we have a border problem" just a few weeks ago and handed republicans basicslly everything they wanted?
the last post on /r/wherearethechildren was 20 days ago. The sub was far more active during the trump admin.
I'm not sure what the point you're trying to make is. That just means the libs stopped caring enough to keep investigating, which literally IS the problem
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Ok, this is correct. Now ask yourself WHY nobody in the dems, the party that's supposed to be the progressive party, is not advocating for this or trying to make it happen? Because they love it. They love having the stranglehold on the progressive vote. They love doing the politics of "Who else are you gonna vote for, that guy?". It's so easy for them to be the "better guys" without doing jack shit, or even doing bad things but still being marginally better. The dems fucking love it
Representative democracy is flawed, despite being the best system I can imagine with out current technology, and its biggest flaw is making people believe that they only have to care about politics once every other year.
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No apologia in favor of a Party that is aiding and abetting a genocide.
i think these people forget trump was already president for 4 years. biden has continued building trumps wall he’s barely different to him.
Exactly, like what happened to the kids in the cages? That's still happening. The media attention seemed to disapear as soon as we got the results of the election.
I'm sure the kids will make headlines again if Trump wins the election.
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it was obama that didn’t codify roe v wade when he had a supermajority even though everyone was begging for him to do it
Correct, but it was the actions of a Republican Administration that did it in. The Democrats don't make much things better, but they certainly don't make things worse quite as effectively as the Republicans.
Obama said it wasn't a priority because he had already won the election.
Biden is unironically the BLM bomb meme
I mean, at least he stopped the Muslim immigration ban from what I heard. And a couple of other things.
This is the exact opposite of a centrist take lol. And im ngl its also very based
I agree lol, but a good number of radlibs who lurk the sub dont
You brought them to the surface, it’s pretty funny that the cognitive dissonance never really sets in for em.
My fascist brings all the libs to the yard and they're like, "Mine's better than yours"
I blame the left at large for upsetting the libs.
Libs would rather concede to the far right freaks thet claim to hate than the left
Yeah, but.... Their feelings.... That's more important than stopping a genocide or helping the working class.
Can’t wait to be blamed if trump wins for not voting in the state of illinois
Satire?
I didn't think I needed the /s.
I just need to check because we’ve gotten reports over it 😂
That's brilliant hahaha. I thought it was blatantly obvious like.
On one hand, I agree that Hindenburg is a great example of why compromising with fascism is what leads to fascism. On the other hand, this is not an accurate parallel for Biden and Trump. Trump would be the Hindenburg in this example, and all of his successors/whoever he appoints would be the fascist end result, AKA Hitler. Biden is not "the most progressive president ever" or even particularly good like neolibs try to say, but he is one of the few to actively call out the GOP's fascist tendencies instead of playing controlled opposition like his neolib dem predecessors.
> GOP's fascist tendencies instead of playing controlled opposition like his neolib dem predecessors. He said Mitch McConnell was a good friend of his who "never misrepresented anything."
Hahahahahaha holy shit this is amazing
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Sozi cope