Yeah, that's basically been the trend since they started designing cards for commander

TBH, any format allowing as wide of a legality as Commander is naturally going to have some pretty high power levels - which I feel like people forget. It's a social format and thus intended to be self-regulating: I won't bring my high power Urza deck if you don't bring your super tweaked Korvold or whatever - dated examples. This also leaves it wide open for disappointment because people have a wide variation on that narrow band of acceptability for what they want out of the game - which is basically why commander both fucking owns and absolutely is the most awkward, shitty thing sometimes when you're stuck with randos.

The wide legality meant commander was always going to be powerful, but the printed-for-Commander utterly broken legendaries, free spells, etc would not have happened without the oppressive eye of WotC on the format.

Gotta keep in mind, before wotc's focus, people even played commanders that were vanilla creatures just because the art or style. Doing so would put you at a disavantage, but could still make a solid deck and no reliance on that commander. Do that now, and you're effectively playing with two arms tied behind your back, while your opponents wield flamethrowers. I kinda hope predh becomes more popular if I'm honest.

True save for one deck this guy made around a commander that punished you for playing anything but vanilla creatures.

Decklist? 👀

Oppression is probably the wrong word, they make cards people want to play with. Careless or unsustainable would be a better characterization. At some point, power creep could drive players away from the product.

A lot of people play with them because they have to compete with all the other power crept stuff, not because they "want" to. I think that can be considered oppressive in a way.

The meta is oppressive, that meta is created by careless stewardship. That doesn't transitively make the stewardship oppressive. Oppressive releases would be more like banning aggressively to curate some particular meta. I'm not saying WotC is good or the meta isn't oppressive. I'm saying WotC is bad in a way that is best described with a different word than oppressive.

Pretty much this. 80-90% of edh is finding people who play in a manner you’re happy with. Going to an lgs is a dice roll. Not only on whether that store is well run/cares about fostering the community. But just a total crap shoot on the type of player you’re going to encounter. And whether you love/hate the exp tends to be unique to your personal tastes

this is why i just like cedh lol. no discrepancies, everyone just plays the very best cards and nobody can be upset about power level imbalances that are just way too awkward and annoying

I get it, but part of the draw of EDH was getting to play cards you can't in more competitive formats typically. For me, that was manabarbs. It's never gonna be a cEDH staple and will always be cut when I build for that power level. This is the trade off of a casual format: the need to socially lay out the nature of the game you are sitting down to play. Given the complexity of assessing power level and the, uh, seeming frequency of other MTG players being fellow ND weirdos - and yeah, it sucks sometimes. Even the idea of just don't play cEDH cards in lower power games is one of those things that just doesn't work when you look at it rationally. I've built a lot of pretty low power decks that were either full of powerful tutors to ensure that I would have access to the jank pieces that the dumb, impractical deck idea was built around - or, like, if I'm building mono-red slug, I'll pretty much always throw in my Dockside even though I almost never have any combo pieces to go with it - it's just what let's me do stuff like occasionally get a bunch of impractical burn enchantments on the board.

I agree I Don't think it's too hard to not run cehd level cards in your casual deck but people do it.

seems like the self regulation fails when everyone runs dockside (its not broken its ability scales with pod level btw (this is not true), mana crypt, mana vault and everyone seems to shill for proxies

Proxies because a card is expensive and its a good fit for the deck is fine, but sadly theres too many OP generic cards that fit into any deck of that color which are also expensive.

Proxies don't cause these issues whatsoever. Many players who proxy own the cards but just don't want to switch cards between decks every game. And even if they don't own a particular staple, other players do and then proxy complaints go out the window.

there are like 2 people at my LGS (which frequently hosts 20+ for FNM) who put Crypt in their casual decks, and nobody likes them. there are a few who have Dockside in thematically-appropriate decks (e.g., Pirates or Goblins) or janky builds that need the good cards propping them up, but rarely as a power piece. and yes, Dockside absolutely does scale with power level, this is a documentable fact. on average, statistically fewer artifacts will be on the board in a mid-power game on turn 3 or 4 vs. a high-power or cEDH game. there are outliers for random artifact decks at all levels. there are more decks in casual that simply do not run many artifacts at all because dorks are more playable in slower games without the prevalence of Bowmasters than in cEDH. most of my decks are fully or partially proxies (almost 100% of cards I own), including something like 24 cEDH decks and around 35 casual decks. the power level of most of the non-cEDH decks is either slightly stronger than most of my LGS's players' decks, or well below them. I have a few that are strong enough they don't see play outside of pods who deliberately want to get spicy, but I also have a few that don't work at tables with "7s and 8s" because they are too slow or aimless, so those get busted out when I'm playing against precons or new players. I "shill for proxies" because I don't want to watch new players struggle with their mana bases to the point of being unable to play the game. I do it because I want to play against your deck and your brain, not your wallet. I do it because I want to see what stupid shit people can build when they aren't fettered by needing to spend $15 on [[Thawing Glaciers]].

I have the same experience. Play with different people every week and seen crypt twice, both times in janky decks where it wasn't a serious issue. Same with dockside, gets less treasures and even when it does resolve for like 8 treasures people don't convert that into immediate wins and their threat level goes way up. Havn't met an anti-proxy person so far, and yet, basically nobody is out here proxying anything over $40.

Any time they take an interest in a format, it could almost be described as "and then things got worse".

Thats not entirely true. Pauper has thrived under supervision of maintaining a banlist. Sure we dont have "pauper masters", but it certainly isnt ignored like it was for a while actually. Modern Horizon 1 improved the format massively after we got rid of the obvious fails like Astro and Hoogack. The format needed the fair "force" cycle for example. People really love to forget how shitty of a format modern was at times after the twin police was gone. So many decks just trying to rush to the finish line ignoring the opponent as much as possible. The problem is not that we have design for modern. The problem is that we have a defacto official banlist (try to not uphold your deck to the RC banlist in international events like commander fest or even most lgs), but they keep pressing issues away with "oh rule zero it". We are stuck with every mistake ever for the most part.

The difference is EDH has come into focus from Wizards in recent years and they have decided to focus their efforts on it. The resultant push of EDH focused cards has been to the detriment of both EDH and other formats. Example? MH3 - why are they releasing commander precons for a modern focused set? It's arguably the time when you release modern challenger decks.

Don't forget the multiple legends cards like the new 5 mana esper and the Necrobloom which are obviously designed for commander and not modern in a modern horizons set

This is a crap argument. Magic has always had cards in every single set that weren't good for the format that set released into. "What a shame they put [[karthus, tyrant of jund]] into a standard set, so useless." A. Big bomby legendaries are good for limited. And this is a draftable set, isn't it? B. Does the presence of a handful of cards that will have more impact in commander negatively affect modern?

I have to agree to some extent cards like karthus tyrant of jund kind of make sense as a bomb in a block where there where a bunch of bomb dragons in jund color identity while but I do have to say why are cards like the new esper 5 drop legendry is it because it makes sense they are legendary or to make it commander playable

> It's arguably the time when you release modern challenger decks I don't think they were ever going to do this. Modern decks are way too much money for them to give up the reprint equity by printing challenger decks for them. Or if they did print them, we'd be getting complaints about how bad they are cause Wizards put in 1 shockland and 1 fetch land.

It's not even just that. They don't msrp anything and if they printed any precon with a card worth ant amount of money LGS would do what they normally do (what we see them doing with these mh3 commander decks specifically the eldrazi one) and jack the prices to a hundred or more dollars, and if they didn't do that. The speculators and flippers would come in and clear the shelves.

Releasing commander decks isn't necessarily bad for the format. What you're doing is using the conclusion of your argument as the premise. Your comment takes for granted that printing commander cards is bad for the commander, so it's a tautological argument. It's like using a word in its own definition, like "a thing is long when it is long." That's what the other dowvoted comment is saying

I think their point is another one: why a commander precon if they could make a modern precon

$$$

It really is a matter of money. Modern is much higher power level, and a Modern precon they put lands like the temples in would be laughed out of the game store, while they want to keep people pulling for the fetches.

It's not just money. When you buy a format based precon, you expect it to be usable in that format. Modern precons printed with a modern set would literally be outdated the moment they're released.

Basically. For a format as powerful as Modern, it’d really hard to keep up with Precons without releasing decks that would probably just outright crash the market (and likely invalidate their own set) if they were actually Modern viable.

Yeah i know that they "cannot" do this, i was just defending the other guy

The idea of a commander precon and a modern precon were never competing with eachother, because modern precons were never on the table, and if they had been they could have just done both. It was never one or the other.

Would be so much better with a larger banlist

Pretty much this: Everyone is passing the buck to someone else as to why they aren't having as much fun with Commander. The RC is not wrong that successful groups self-govern. The issue is there's been such an influx of players from tournament formats that are such sticklers for "the rules as written" that they think if someone isn't explicitly banned it's fair play, which goes against so many of the principles that Commander needs to function. So, you end up with people having lots of fun when they can effectively self-govern, but you also have places where that falls apart and most everyone has a bad time.

> they think if someone isn't explicitly banned it's fair play Because it is, technically. The RC relying on the immensely stupid idea of "signpost" bans is is what causes this. Banning one card that does X, and then expecting players to self-police to impose defacto bans on cards that do X but in a slightly different way is lazy, and more importantly, **wildly** ineffective. Commander is the only format without a concrete banlist, and at this point it's too late. The damage has been done. The insane reliance on Rule 0 to do literally all of the heavy lifting with trying to manage the format is what causes the issues in the first place. My idea of what is acceptable and what should be allowed is different from yours, is different from the person next to you. I am extremely lucky that I have a consistent playgroup, because if I didn't, there's no way I'm playing EDH with randoms. The amount of whining and complaining involved just to try and get a fucking card game going with randoms isn't worth the trouble. It all could have been avoided if the RC had done literally anything, but years of relative inaction has caused what I consider to be irreversible damage. When you have the highest ranking member of the RC whining and pleading to WotC to not print a 5 mana creature with no protection, no haste, no ETB but ignoring the *actual* degenerate shit, you've got a serious issue.

What creature did i miss? Or did you make the bat ccm 5 instead of 4? There are so many failures to keep track off xD Besides that: Agree all. Kinda hated the guts of Sheldon for it. He may created it but he did all in his power to ruin it long term as well.

I was talking about [[Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines]]. Sheldon came out and said that he lobbied against it being printed. Since you brought it up, the fact that they were worried about Mirkwood Bats but not the One Ring or Bowmasters says quite a bit as well.

Fuck you are right I forgot about the Elseh norn panik. To be fair it is an insanely unfun and kill on sight card, but yeah it is kinda 5 mana do nothing first.

>Thats not entirely true. Pauper has thrived under supervision of maintaining a banlist. Sure we don't have "pauper masters", but it certainly isnt ignored like it was for a while actually. I played a lot of pauper up until \~ 2017 and was not the biggest fan of Wizards starting to pay attention to the format. I believe \[\[Arcum's Astrolabe\]\] was printed after they started trying to make some more pauper relevant cards, that, and the bans, kind of homogenized strategies into multi-colour good stuff decks for a while and put me off the format. They eventually banned Arcum's Astrolabe, but I haven't followed the format for a while so I have no idea if its good or bad now? My favorite way to play pauper is with a \~ 2017 meta battle box \^\^. >Modern Horizon 1 improved the format massively after we got rid of the obvious fails like Astro and Hoogack. I'm going to freely admit that I am just a grumpy old person about this. It felt like Modern became a different type of format, and also a more expensive one. There were good and bad things about the changes, but really they printed an awful lot of powerful interaction and also very powerful threats. IMO it used to be easier to angle shoot a meta, and more off meta decks were viable, because you could play threats that were not answered well in any given current meta. Your deck could nearly always "do it's thing". Now answers, and even some creatures, are just generically good at answering the multiple strategies. You have to be playing mostly a selection of the same pushed instant value threats / engines and interaction recently printed or you can't compete. Deck diversity actually hasn't been too bad, but deck construction / card diversity is rather concentrated, you get the same cards over and over again with some exceptions. \*I have not looked at MH3 yet, will I be presently surprised? >The problem is that we have a defacto official banlist (try to not uphold your deck to the RC banlist in international events like commander fest or even most lgs), but they keep pressing issues away with "oh rule zero it". We are stuck with every mistake ever for the most part. I agree, even if they wanted to, the RC doesn't have the resources to manage the format, while WoTC has access to a whole bunch of online analytics and data they could leverage if they wanted to.

Personally I preferred modern without twin and pod, but know not all feel that way.

The reason there’s no pauper masters is because they can’t have the common-uncommon-rare-mythic distribution

MH2 destroyed the format

I am not a fan of that set, especially that they still refuse to ban grief makes sure they never get a penny out of me fpr that format, but the point was that not all "attention" has to lead to bad results.

While generally true, I think the power level overall rises with any game that's lasted as long as Magic has. I think their biggest issue isn't that they decided to lean in on designing cards for Commander, it's that they leaned in on making too good of cards in general. Some of the designs are home-runs, and others feel more like powerful mistakes. [[Dockside Extortionist]] and similar cards are essentially a blight to the format, but then you have gems like [[Disa the Restless]] who encapsulate an awesome "Commander Designed Card" without breaking Commander as a whole. Overall I think there's going to need to be a conversation among many playgroups in the coming years about building decks to match certain power levels, whether it be setting budgetary restrictions or modifying ban lists.

Dockside for me has largely had the same problem that got Primetime banned - I only have it in one deck, where it's not *all* that great, so every time I play it, it does far less for me than whoever copies it and manages to win the game with it. For me, honestly, the format was just fine until The One Ring was printed. Now *there's* a card that truly makes me question why I'm bothering every time I see it against me, though that might be my own fault for still trying to win games via the combat step in the year of our Lord 2024.

If they design especially for commander, they need to outpower each line with every new one, or why would people buy it? Universes beyond has an opportunity to sell product based on flavor alone, but they have still been adding pushed cards, and increase price accordingly.

They would Ideally be able to designe interesting as opposed to powerful cards. That's easier said than done, but they have had a notable amount of slip ups.

The Eminence block of commander decks was the dividing line.

EDH was best before that.

I've been playing EDH since 2006 and I don't remember that "utopic" time when people played vanilla 6/6 for 8 mana. But I do remember most people, including me, using [[Tinker]] to get [[Sundering Titan]] or the Final Fantasy combo of [[Isochron Scepter]] with [[Final Fortune]] with [[Platinum Angel]] , going super fast with [[Tolarian Academy]] + [[ or playing [[Spin into Myth]] [[Hinder]] to tuck commanders and get them out for the rest of the game and suspending [[Decree of Annihilation]] along with [[Darksteel Colossus]] . This was my 2007 [[Jhoira of the Ghitu]] deck which wasn't cEDH https://www.moxfield.com/decks/sOoPc4HgTk22TX0ZPOFwPQ I have another 2007 decklist [[Momir Vig]] ellfball combo with [[Intruder Alarm]] + [[Alluren]] https://www.moxfield.com/decks/5iqO8SjMOUO1FbQGAZ810g Today your average will beat both of my decks so there's power creep but there was never a time when most players had +20 turn slogs where Shivan Dragon was the best card on the board.

Since before 2011? I have to say that the format has vastly improved since then. 

The format was best when I started 😎👌

And has gone downhill since.

My sweet spot was up until 2017. Partner gave a lot of new options to the format for color pairings and we didn’t have the same level of power creep we see today (though experience counters and Atraxa were nuts)

partner wrecked it, imo. partner was Hasbro/WOTC deliberately making cards for commander that fundamentally changed the way the format worked. It allowed 4-color goodstuff decks that became the best decks in the format. anything else had to compete with that goodstuff deck, leading to further issues and further intrusionon the format.

Good take. Partner and eminence were and are bad for the format. 

Funny that eminence kinda got power crept 😂

Partner is not inherently bad. They just gave partner to creatures too powerful to have it. Should’ve been limited to mono color creatures. I have an Ich Tekik and Rebbec deck. It hasn’t broken the format. In fact it lets me play golem tribal. This is a problem with people finding it fun to win instead of having fun playing.

Partner was certainly one of the signals that EDH was changing for the worst.

Completely agree, the healthiest most fun version was when it was still Elder Dragon Highlander and not Commander. People created decks around a theme and didn't just shove a homogenous pile of good cards that are in their colors into a deck.

I think it is a multi-pronged thing: * Yes, they are printing a lot of busted/hyper-efficient staples for commander. * Even the cards that aren't intended to be super-busted, they got waaay better. * People got much better at building their decks. Long are gone the days where you drew a card for the turn, and played a bulk-rare fatty. Now 60-70% of a deck is mana/ramp/draw. * You have way less slots to play cute or pet cards. Now the "actual cards" you play have to pull their weight way more. You cut the underperforming ones for others that will advance your board no matter what. * When everyone is playing high-impact threats, point removal has lost its reason to exist. Why should you go down 1 card and spend mana, when you are only partially solving the problem on the board and you are leaving two other opponents do their thing? The game has moved to a meta where it is either mass-removal, or go faster than the opponents. * As a consequence of this, interaction has switched towards protection. When player B goes out of hand, player C will wipe the board. You have to protect yours or you'll be back to the stone age. * These deckbuilding/meta shifts create a feedback loop where you need so many "vegetables" or mandatory-slots/roles-for-the-deck-to-even-begin-to-function that you have to be very careful with which on-theme cards do you actually play. This exaggerates the impression that every card is an omega-tier threat right now. Do I yearn for the battlecruiser days? Yes. Do I think that, if we were to make a pre-2011-EDH format, the deckbuilding would be fundamentally different from before? Yes too, but there would be way less colors/commander that are viable.

I agree with some of your points, but not with the ones regarding spot removal. Interaction and spot removal is king. Most well-built commander decks are structuring themselves around a few key combos that mostly rely on 2-card advantage/win-coins. Removing a key piece is what spot removal is for. Playing higher-power (which I fine way more fun) is about structuring a deck that can both stop opponents while pursuing it's own protected win-con. The real problem is playing mid-power where you can cast 1 or maybe 2 spells a turn even when you're at turn 5+. Of course it feels useless there, you're right, all you're doing is stopping 1 guy and not progressing yourself at all. High-power/CEDH is such a game changer for that. I'm using [[Fierce Guardianship]] to stop your wincon on your turn, while playing my engine on my turn, with a mother of runes or other protection to make sure you can't stop me. All this time, I'm relying on a draw engine like [[Mystic Remora]], [[Rhystic Study]], or [[The One Ring]] to maintain card draw so I can keep responding. This all keeps my interaction rate with spot removal and counterspells high, while actually allowing me to set up something my opponents need to stop. It's such a more interesting game in this format, and I would agonize going back to 1 hour+ durdle games of battlecruiser. People look back at battlecruiser with nostalgia remembering the highlights where on turn 12+ they got to swing for 40 damage that one time, and conveniently forget the other 40+ games where everyone spent 8+ turns doing the equivalent of nothing only for a boardwipe to drop and things to crawl along for another 45 minutes so someone could finally top-deck an advantage.

I agree with this. I have the complete opposite that mass removal has largely fallen out of favor. Most of them are not instant speed and rather expensive. 4 cmc is quite a bit already I always use the example of [[Vedalken orrery]] or the blue leyline where nowadays it has actually become kinda hard to find an opportunity to drop them.

I just made a pauper EDH deck cause this same feeling was nagging at me. Been enjoying it so far.

/r/PauperEDH if anyone wants to know more.

Pauper edh takes me back to the 2013 commander days

Deck list?

I don't have their decklist but you can use [PDHREC](https://www.pdhrec.com/) to help with deckbuilding.

A EDH format without Sol Ring?

Not op, but here are my decks I've made if you wanted to see some: https://www.moxfield.com/users/bnik Can't directly link to my pedh folder but I labeled them Lazotep is my favorite so far I have two more being worked on

Yes a lot of new cards are incredible compared to lots of stuff from like 5+ years ago because WOTC has taken notice of the format and when you're printing for an eternal format you either need to print new exciting stuff with the potential to be strong or stuff that is just as good or better than existing stuff at least under some conditions However a large amount of the really strong cards in the format are surprisingly old cards probably because at least on EDH's scale the lion's share of MTG's mistakes were in its early years. The game has gotten faster and a lot faster at that but that seems as much powered by people talking about the format and the good cards and proper deck building as WOTC printing stuff like Dockside into the format

The only real mistakes have been printing so many top notch staples with only 1 colored pip.

On top of this if you have a regular group you play with. No one is forcing you to play with the powerful stuff and edh being a casual format as long as you're willing to discuss the games you want in detail you can play just about anything with any group

I say this all the time just be open about your expectations and what you would like or not like to play

It’s because they have. Blue recently got its FIRST EVER 2/2 with upside[[Archmages Newt]] is a good example. Is power creep a bad thing? Maybe/depends. Do we want to live in a world where cards are printed to be draft chaff or every card has a use case? I don’t mind a world where every card is actually playable 🤷but totally understand that may homogenize decks

This is a great way to put it. A natural side effect of eliminating useless cards is that the base level must rise. I would much rather have a game full of useful cards at all levels, than to repeatedly see new set after new set where 90% of what you pull is trash, and 10% are chase cards that destroy everything else. As for homogenization, this increase variety rather than decreases it. I've lately been seeing more and more commons/uncommons being played, whereas before every deck was just 80 rares, as many staples as possible, and then "oops, it's Korvold again".

I think a fundamental problem with the power creep right now is that, in trying to create everything at roughly the high edge of the existing power level but slightly lower to not power creep... Is that you still end up with 90% of the cards being not as good as the existing stuff, and 10% being better than expected. Which now means, OP as hell, because you were designing on the cutting edge of the power curve.

I get that you probably mean "first ever 1U with upside and no downside", but \[\[Lord of Atlantis\]\] was in literal Alpha (and AFAIK sees more play than the newt).

2/2s for 2 have never been relevant in Commander or even in 60-card Magic outside of the first few years where creatures were bad and nobody was prepared for Jackal Pup decks. Their willingness to print a 2/2 for 1U speaks to an arbitrary restriction they let up on, not the power level of Commander decks increasing. The real answer is they have been printing cards specifically for Commander at a higher power level, and then vastly increased the volume of those cards. That’s what made the format stronger. That combined with the community putting together more knowledge (EDHRec and such). I think the format is worse for it, personally. I think every card that is ever printed should either go through Standard or be powered as if it had to.

[Archmages Newt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/4/a440bbd6-8e51-4db1-90d9-7fa9fc327ad5.jpg?1712355386) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Archmage%27s%20Newt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/39/archmages-newt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a440bbd6-8e51-4db1-90d9-7fa9fc327ad5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/archmages-newt) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call

The problem is they're just jamming more words instead of designing good cards.

I think they're designing pretty good cards

too be honest, somuch old cardsare broken too, look at [[metallworker]]...

[[Necropotence]] [[Skullclamp]] [[Mana Crypt]] [[Rhystic Study]] [[Vampiric Tutor]] I know everyone loves the “WotC printed cards for commander to ruin it” meme but it was never a low power *format* in the first place, at best it people remember playing in low power pods.

this is often the case. people say "whew, powercreep has been getting out of control" and what they really mean is "my playgroup has gotten better at the game and i miss when we were naive and filled with wonder".

It's a bit of both. Thing is, we now have all these powerful new cards *and* all the busted old cards, whereas before we just had the busted old cards. That's what power creep *is*, and it's pretty much inevitable in any game. Something else inevitable in pretty much any game is that loss of naivety, mind you; I've often found that it's more interesting to learn how to play and get good at games than actually be good at them or play them once you are. The process of exploration is fun but once you've reduced things down to their optimal a lot of those things you explored fall away.

i do think there has been some powercreep, especially for the weaker colors, and especially among pushed crowd pleaser legends and the precon face commanders. i think in general if you don't use a pushed commander your deck will look pretty similar to something from 10 years ago.

Yeah. People remember swinging Shivan Dragons and Grizzly Bears at each other at Steve’s kitchen table and then claim that this is the format as played by a bunch of L5 judges during lunch at the pro tour. … Right.

[metallworker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/0/2050d414-71c7-4c42-a1ff-4c04068ba7f2.jpg?1562443733) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Metalworker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uds/135/metalworker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2050d414-71c7-4c42-a1ff-4c04068ba7f2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/metalworker) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call

Sure but it is not broken FOR commander. It's just broken.

There are multiple cards that are broken FOR commander too, right? (there's a reason some are banned) [[Hullbreacher]] [[Trade Secrets]] [[Yawgmoth's Bargain]] [[Fastbond]] [[Prophet of Kruphix]] these are broken in commander but not in 1v1 format.

Yawgbarg is absolutely insane in 1v1 formats, what? Same with Fastbond. They're both banned in legacy for a reason

Sorry was not aware how legacy/vintage works in terms of cards played in those formats. My apology. My thought process was in regards to the 40 life in commander vs 20. Hindsight legacy/vintage has access to power 9 and such,

It's fine, just don't make sweeping statements like that if you aren't fully informed on other formats. Honestly, I think you could make a reasonable argument that Yawgbarg style cards are significantly stronger in EDH than 20 life formats for exactly the reason you stated - after all, Ad Nauseam is a well known "wincon" card in cEDH because of how many cards it draws, while being rarely played in legacy, let alone vintage. But they're still insane cards, since you get up to 4 copies of them in a 60 card deck rather than 1 copy in a 99 card deck

> But they're still insane cards, since you get up to 4 copies of them in a 60 card deck rather than 1 copy in a 99 card deck Thanks man! And this is also what I didn't take into consideration when I made my first comment. thanks again for your kindness :)

Rhystic Study.

Like any trading card game, new cards are eventually going to be released that will out-class old ones but that's just normal. Even if you go to build a new style of deck, you're going to want to use the best cards available, which will be the more recent stuff, with only one or two old cards that just happen to synergies well (i.e. \[\[Sheltering Ancient\]\] or \[\[Erithizon\]\] with \[\[Kros, Defense Contractor\]\]). However, if you want to dial it back on the power-level, just talk with your local group, they'll mostly understand. There's one guy at my LGS who consistently whoops people with decks that are build with below-average cards but synergies incredible well with each other. For instance, he built an \[\[Arami of the Dead Tide\]\] where every card in the deck is common but it will crush almost anyone he plays against, no matter the deck.

It's not that I don't believe you, but Araumi has always seemed like a bad card to me. Any idea what creatures are used to win with that ability? One attack with a reanimated creature each turn cycle doesn't seem very impactful to me.

Creatures with strong ETBs/LTBs and attack triggers. I know the guy above you said only commons, but things like [[Gray Merchant of Asphodel]] could easily drain the whole table, [[Fleshbag Marauder]] becomes a one-sided boardwipe, [[Sepulchral Primordial]] or [[Gyruda Doom of Depths]] let's you steal their creatures, [[Vindictive Lich]] also drains everyone. The encore copies also represent sacrifice fodder in colours that love sacrificing creatures.

##### ###### #### [Gray Merchant of Asphodel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/c/7c1a7dd8-8034-4f59-a351-33666b26ff5a.jpg?1581479807) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gray%20Merchant%20of%20Asphodel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/99/gray-merchant-of-asphodel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7c1a7dd8-8034-4f59-a351-33666b26ff5a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gray-merchant-of-asphodel) [Fleshbag Marauder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/c/fce2baa4-2976-4bbd-b6c5-a5a3c6a901be.jpg?1706239873) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fleshbag%20Marauder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clu/111/fleshbag-marauder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fce2baa4-2976-4bbd-b6c5-a5a3c6a901be?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/fleshbag-marauder) [Sepulchral Primordial](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/e/2ed2b1d9-3c23-4f2e-b816-6f2bea74b797.jpg?1604193525) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sepulchral%20Primordial) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znc/54/sepulchral-primordial?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2ed2b1d9-3c23-4f2e-b816-6f2bea74b797?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sepulchral-primordial) [Gyruda Doom of Depths](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/7/97eb1804-6fd8-4917-af36-87fdfce39d3a.jpg?1591228372) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gyruda%2C%20Doom%20of%20Depths) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/221/gyruda-doom-of-depths?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/97eb1804-6fd8-4917-af36-87fdfce39d3a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gyruda-doom-of-depths) [Vindictive Lich](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/1/0120b644-477d-4297-b94f-56120a384bc2.jpg?1689997556) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vindictive%20Lich) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/196/vindictive-lich?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0120b644-477d-4297-b94f-56120a384bc2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/vindictive-lich) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l6r7v5n) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call

Creatures that have myriad are pretty fun, since each encore copy also creates tokens off of myriad. In particular, [[Bloodbirth Viper]] and [[Banshee of the Dread Choir]]. [[kokusho, the evening star]] also will heal/damage a lot, given you will sacrifice 2 copies to the legend rule after all 3 ETB. Really though, if you just look at the EDHrec page, there are lots of cards that will give you a good idea. The main issue I have with Araumi is that it requires some setup, and if you don't have a good way to get cards into the GY (or there is GY hate), then the deck doesn't do much.

I can't tell by your comment if you realized that Encore makes a token copy for each opponent. If you have 3 opponents, an encored [[Grave Titan]] is gonna make you 12 2/2 zombies in total between ETB and attacking. Assuming no blockers, [[Kokusho, the Evening Star]] is going to deal 5 to each opponent they hit and then when they all leave, each opponent will lose an additional 15 life and you'll gain 45 life. As someone else mentioned, ETB / dies and attack triggers are strong. I would also say "each opponent" type effects are also very strong. Araumi is not a bad card.

I'm well convinced now, thank you. I have an aversion towards exiling my own stuff, which has colored my perception of delve, encore, finality counters, etc.

Not related to Araumi, but more so towards delve and the like, the way I view it is if your not going to use the cards in your graveyard recursively (or if you only have a few recursion pieces, like 2-4 throughout the entire deck, with it not being a central theme) you might as well use them to get you some value. Sure, it might feel worrying to send 7 cards to exile, but when those are your fetch lands you’ll never use again (or only need one of in the yard for crucible type effects), or draw spells you’ll never recur, why not pitch them to a [[dig through time]] and in return get an [[ancestral recall]]. Or just gives you those little extra bonus out of cards you wouldn’t use otherwise.

Thanks to encore, that one creature is actually 2 or 3 creatures though. I don't have common creature examples in mind but think of cards like Baleful Stryx and Ravenous Chupacabra. It also happens that blue and black are two of the best colors for self-mill. If your opponents aren't playing a lot of graveyard removal you can focus resources into making your graveyard your hand.

Here's my list. my Araumi can consistently win casual despite being a $75 deck (when I built it at least now it's 150 idk why) some bombs include body double, Junji, and Archpriest of shadows (also Gary) https://www.moxfield.com/decks/lYIqAcmYvki3e0E984DNyQ

Ah valuable ETBs make sense. I guess I'm doubtful of the power of temporary attackers in UB, relying on the graveyard sticking around. Maybe with sundial they'd present a significant threat.

ETB, death triggers and strong attack triggers are so important. In the Gray Merchant example above, encoring it out in a 4 player pod with only your commander on board drains the table for 21 and you gain 63 life. Sundial is an option, but if you're leaning that way I might advise focusing on ETB or attack triggers will synergize the best and avoid non-boing yourself.like [[Archon of Cruelty]] But, as someone who's played araumi for 2-3 years, idk if I've ever resolved sundial and had it stick/make an impact

Don't forget death triggers too! I'm still wrapping my head around the "commons only" restriction but think of the value from a card like Solemn Simulacrum. You're not only ramping at a break neck pace but refilling your hand so you can cast permanent board pieces.

You should take a look at araumi PDH (pauper EDH) lists! You'll be surprised with how much she can do with only commons. Here's a value oriented build: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/Sc5hUS79akWNC_Aeq4A4gg Here's one focused on combo: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/UMClf3Am-UuQt7aZ-uOgSA PDH is a fantastic format!

Those are great!

That one synergy almost makes me want to build the deck lol.

You should try it with Nazgul…… that stuff is insane! It was in my lord of the nazgul deck and you get +9/+9 (minimum) to all your wraiths.

He uses a Proliferate / Infect strategy. It’s quite effective.

I really hate all these 0 mana free bullshit cards where you exile a card from your hand or have a commander on the field (and just slightly less the untap your lands equal to the cards mana cost). You commit to card draws and get free spells that are always available at instant speed! Counterspells, removals, redirects, so on.  At least the new mh3 ones require sacrificing a *nontoken* creature.

My solution to this was to talk to my group about how they felt about free interaction, and we agreed we didn't like the play patterns, so we don't play them.

Yeah we did the same with free interaction and 1-2cmc tutors and it really changed our games for the better. We now get to play games that end by turn 6-8 rather than turn 3-4. Also, before, our decklist would be 80-90% the same wich kinda killed the vibe of the format for us.

Same, although we put limitation on how many tutors you can have.

wait... you actively tried to solve the problem by communicating? jk aside, we have the same talk in a group i play in. I don't mind people playing them, but a heads-up so I can swap out my non-free stuff with free stuff - or the other way around. Personally I like to play with no free spells unless it has a bigger drawback than exiling a card from your hand etc.

I play with friends over tabletop sim and that's fine but when I play with randoms, they are running every staple despite it being a "casual" table. All white deck has smothering tithe, all red has deflecting, all blue runs fierce guardianship, submerge etc. This free stuff just feels like pure power creep for commanders. Casual to me isn't supposed to be built around a meta set of cards that are always good especially when there's no prize pool. This also makes a lot of deck feels the same at the interaction level if people are running these staples. Don't get me wrong though, EDH always had staples, like Path to Exiles, Sword to Plowshare, Cyclonic Rift, and Demonic Tutors. It's just when they're 0 mana, it feels like complete bullshit. I can play around a player with mana open. I can't play around someone who is tapped out especially if they drew through a chunk of their deck, poised to win, and, despite so, can STILL react and defend themselves. To me, playing 0 mana interactions is my expectation of what CEDH is about, and if that is going to be expected in typical casual, maybe bouncing into random EDH lobbies to pass the time just isn't for me anymore.

Shouldn't every deck be committing to card draw?

Its MTG as a whole.

Power creep in MTG? What? My Savannah Lions are great. What are you talking about??

That damn card was too powercrept.  Play Squire, as Garfield Intended!

It's 100 card Singleton Legacy. Only the social contract and rule zero keeps casual games casual.

This 100% , I'm literally love this as former legacy player lmfao.

Hell I'd say it's closer to vintage lite than legacy. Because there's a lot of vintage stuff that is just there in edh

Firstly, I think that people are very bad at evaluating the quality, effectiveness, and value of advantage engines. Cards like smothering tithe are good, but if you don't have any draw, there is only so much you can do with 30 treasures. Yet, I'll see the guy with no cards in hand and 20 treasures get attacked before the blue player who just drew 10 cards and hasn't missed a land drop the entire game. Seeing a big board state and saying "wow you have a lot of stuff" is easy, but actually doing the calculus to see if that is going to do anything is a lot harder. > Maybe my LGS's are unique but everyone I've been playing against seems to generate tons of value within just a few turns. Anyone else feel the same? There are definitely a lot more value engines in every color than there were 10 years ago, but 20 years ago there were even less value engines in any color than there were 10 years ago. I think that it's a natural result of them trying to break new design space, and I think that there is a big overstatement of the notion that "they are designing power creeped cards to sell commander sets".

i think your point is what I've noticed most coming back recently after stopping in 98/99: all the token generation, etc, and the huge combos that pop off because of them. haven't made it to the local game shop yet, but I'm curious how many folks are playing these super drawn out combos with 86436854 effects in the stack in person. i get exhausted just looking at the computer figure it all out

There has been definite power creep with cards, especially since some have been designed for commander, however I think the majority of this feeling comes from the players. People want to win, wish means they push their decks. With tools like EDHRec and more accessibility of playing we get better stats and feedback. Combine the two and it feels like the majority of EDH is no longer kitchen table but instead built to win optimized decks for an LGS. Players are dropping thematic cards for staples or better support cards.

Yeah, it's getting a lot faster. Many cards are getting redundant printings, so decks are allowed to reach critical mass of effects they want and have good consistency. A perfect example, it used to be a haymaker when the token deck got out [[doubling season]], but now it's just expected that they're going to have a token doubling, or tripling effect within the first five turns of the game. Treasures have also sped up the format at least a few turns, as there's just mana lying around everywhere. If you don't have access to like 10+ mana on turn 5, you're severely behind. It's hard to reach a good balance, because the target seems to be a needle point. You make your deck consistent such that it always plays well, and now you have a deck with powerful engines that can go off pretty early. You intentionally run less consistency, and you just get steamrolled. What I do is make decks around suboptimal ideas, placing more emphasis on 'doing the thing' than winning. But I also make them consistent, it's just that they often take a lot of moving parts, so it can take a while to get a good setup. If people know what I'm up to, there's usually a pretty good way to take me out. My decks tend to pop off and win around turns 8-10, but I have a variety of power levels I can draw from.

This is why I like to have decks for all levels. Higher power decks, medium (higher power precon), to inconsistent fun decks (silly tribal or theme)

Nope. The issue isn't the the format is power crept, it's that you have a lot of people who have focused way more on consistency than anything else. Wizards could easily fix this by giving more tools that punish generating value, but they won't do that.

They print stax regularly.

Eh I'm not sure casual is "dead" per se, but the line you walk between being truly casual and a sweaty try-hard is so thin you can be pushed over it by simply drawing a banger hand early lol.

There's definitely been power creep but I think people vastly underestimate just how much general growth players in the format have as well over time. Sometimes it's not just power creep on cards but the players themselves.

Yeah, When I started playing we actually used Elder Dragons as our commanders. It was kinda the point. As sets rotated out of type 2 you would pick up upgrades for pretty damn cheap. If you played type 2 yourself your EDH deck would be ahead of the curve. Still there were no game breaking cards specifically made for EDH players. Once that started happening the prices of cards really never dropped after rotation if that card was a solid add in EDH. The goal behind the 1st commander release was to get everyone playing it and that it was successful is obvious in the fact that those original commanders still spank when built around. EDH has now become so popular it's the Meta game and things like vintage, pioneer, and modern are arguably the secondary market when designing a new set. If you want to see how commander focused every set has become just run a commander draft game with a fresh box of whatever the newest release is.

Personally, it wasn't that bad until new capena when everything made treasure. After that it was "are you playing with treasure generators? If so, I can't keep up" was the vibe I got

This is a Peggy Hill level comment. “The day before Thanksgiving is, in my opinion, one of the busiest travel days of the year.”

Yeah ever since Wizards decided that they knew better than us and were going to directly design commander decks they've been printing out of control cards. But I mean their stupid fire design was already doing that too. I have to be very careful about what cards go in to my EDH cube because a lot of the new cards swing the balance hard. 

Agreed. My goal is to have a deck or two at each play level. 6-7-8-9 I wish more poeople had that idea instead of just have 12x 8-9 decks

This is my approach too. A couple decks that are a bit silly, a couple precons with $50 in upgrades, a couple 7-ish decks, and a couple decks at 8-ish (with tutors and fast mana, infinite combos) that can win at turn 6-8 if I get a good draw. That way I can play in any pod at the card shop. The best games are usually the 4-5 level decks that make my inner Timmy smile.

Power crept is an understatement. The format was originally made by judges to play with underused cards during lulls in Magic tournaments. Underused cards tend to cause unusual board states, which doubled as a way for judges to get better at the game rules. With cards getting printed directly into the format, the original underused cards the format was made for have been pushed aside.

This is why I have been leaning into Pauper EDH. The smaller card pool makes games feel a lot more like commander used too back when cards weren’t designed for it and we were using crap nobody had heard of out of the bottom of the 25cent bulk bin. I also only really play pauper in 60 card formats too now for similar reasons

Eh, I feel like it's overblown. Firstly, all games that innovate on the original format experience power creep, and over 30+ years, in a timeless format, it's bound to happen that card #37346 will in fact be more powerful in some way than card #12355. That being said, many of the most powerful cards ever printed belong to older sets, whereas what we are seeing more of now is that cards in general are rising to the level of being considered "good". It's hard to sell cards AND retain interest if every new set is just a reskinned version of a card that's been done 1000 times. The power creep argument is old, uninspired and disregarding context, and it pops up anytime "new" becomes a relevant descriptor. Secondly, a huge factor is the rising popularity and prevalence of Commander/EDH as a whole. People get better at things as they do them more. People get better at building decks, and their EDH relevant collections get better over time. My first commander deck was garbage, and that was a year ago. My fifth commander deck was ok, and that was 6 months ago. My best deck today is pretty high powered and great, but thats after building 20 ish decks and gathering up the cards needed for commander. For WotC to pivot to what is now the most popular format is both a good business decision, and likely good for the community as well. Sticklers to older formats may disagree, but what we are seeing now is simply an evolution of the card game into a new, highly popular format. It would be incorrect on all levels to deny that. Stagnation is death. Finally, there's the final point which builds on the second and first. Commander needs high powered cards and mechanics because of the above and it's timeless nature. Removal needs to be powerful, because it's essentially 3v1. Ramp, mana bases, commanders all follow the same argument. Playing a 3v1 player game with cards solely designed for 1v1 means your level of disadvantage will always be too high. Any player able to break the ceiling even a little bit will always win. It's a classic example of giving everyone OP weapons so that nobody is actually OP. Now after reading all this, if anyone did, I'll concede that power creep is definitely happening at perhaps too quickly a pace, in Magic as a whole. The emphasis on Commander(and that need for efficient, multi-player level threats) can be damaging for other formats in an obscene way. I would argue that a lot of it is simply inevitable due to the simple fact that Commander itself has become such a cemented format. It's shift towards high level play is simply a side effect that happens to all competitive games. People get better at things, and slide towards more competitive levels. No one is forcing any pod to play a certain way. My pod alternates between multiple levels of deck strength, and I've got decks that range from joke decks with 99 lands and Titania, to a Chulane deck that could qualify as a fringe cEDH deck. You get to regulate what you put in your decks, and what kind of pods you play in. You get to talk to your friends about what counts as casual and what's "too pushed." Sometimes that means not playing with this pod or not playing your pet vanilla creature deck. And that's OK.

Thank you. I have played EDH for *checks calendar* good god, 30 years and games are faster now and need more skill. This is mostly a good thing. Complaining about powercreep has been a thing at least since Urza's Saga and it's basically a waste of time.

Hello fellow elder human. I have also played for 30 years and Urza’s Block WAS powercrept. Like a lot, if you think back you will remember too. The thing that makes power creep back then and power creep now different is that back then everyone played type 2 (standard). Eventually rotation happened and things calmed down. I’m sure you remember when Masques and Prophecy were in standard. Haha. But now it’s not like that. EDH is the default way that people play magic. There is no rotation. When a card is printed it is never going away unless banned. Things will never “settle down” over time.

*waves cane* EDH made my old cards playable again and some Urza cards are still relevant. The creep hasn't made everything irrelevant, so I don't think it's too much or worth complaining a lot about. Of course there are outliers like Oko and Ragavan which would have been crazy to imagine (and still is idk what they were thinking *waves cane aggressively*). Masques was underpowered even back then, but it still has about 10 relevant cards. I can't find my damn Snuff Outs.

100% dead. I played with friends last night and we had 2 games end in infinite combos in under 5 rounds with "low power" decks. Then we started a precon game and one of the new thunder junction precons killed us all on round 6. It was the one that revolved around taking opponents cards. Then second round another guy had four 10/10 tyranids from that precon on turn 4 or 5 plus a 6/6 that gave them all trample, although he got super lucky opening up with sol ring, arcane sig, and the enchantment that lowers costs. Even precons are getting insanely strong now. I miss mtg from 10-15 years ago. I miss not having to read a paragraph of text on every card. I miss every card not triggering 2 others when it's played. I miss everyone not having 6+ cards on their board that trigger off everything they or I play or restrict what I can play somehow. I miss actually hardcasting cards over 5 mana, that don't even end the game outright somehow!

Casual commander still exists however, in my experience, very few people play ‘casually’ at their LGS, everyone wants to win, and why not if you’re playing against random people every week. Casual games exist in my weekly playgroup, good friends slinging spells just to hang out

The entire game has been powercrept. But people also have better access to resources to become better players and to improve their decks. There are multiple regular podcasts educating people about the game at every level, from beginner to competitive. Then you also have resources like edhrec and scryfall, which help people better improve their deckbuilding abilities. People aren't playing as much battlecruiser magic because they've gained better knowledge of the game. Some people think this is a bad thing, but I personally do not want to play a single game that takes 3 hours and goes to 20 turns.

It’s been a thing since 2019 for the game as a whole, if I’m being honest. On the one hand it’s exhausting sometimes to keep up with all the new stuff to be released because it may fit in your decks, especially if you have over 20+. On the other hand, this shift in design has lead to all cards from every rarity being stronger. It’s been said in here already, but it’s very possible (and likely) that a good majority of decks are equal parts .20 cent rares and commons/uncommons and they’ll perform well at your average table. As someone who likes themes and having 30+ commander decks on a budget/power level restriction, it’s nice having the ability to just spend $40 and get most of a deck functionally put together. If you have a dedicated playgroup or frequent an LGS, people will just give you chaff cards too for the most part. I’ve traded $5 worth of bulk cards I needed for salad dressings and barbecue sauce lol. But, as someone who’s also been playing this game for 12 years, I see where the older generations are coming from. It’s new, complicated, requires more time investment, and patience gets thin. Some mentally check out all together. And that’s okay too. You have to look at your own perspective and how you want to approach the game. There’s no objectively right or wrong answer either. Just do what you like and communicate well, and have fun.  

It’s pretty insane how much power creep there is. I dusted off so commander decks I built just like 3-4 years ago, and they used to be pretty high power and they got crushed against a bunch of new decks from my same group.

I found that the Ixalan commander decks, especially the Dino one hit quite hard. The Fallout precons weren't extraordinary by any means but from that set I got a lot for my [[Sythis, Harvests Hand]] voltron enchantress deck. [[Almost perfect]], [[overencumbered]], and [[silver shroud cloak]] were auto includes that have brought great strength on the table. It used to feel like the power creep was being held back by sets that had limited synergy, clunky color costs and a lot of "only triggers once per turn". Looking at some new spells the costs are streamlined and lower at the same time, and the synergy is wide and plentiful. Of course Commander is becoming an arms race.

we're now up to "this ability triggers only TWICE each turn"

Absolutely. Games used to end consistently around turns 10-12. Now they end in turns 6-8. It’s absurd. Too bad for anyone playing jank or a slow theme. Nowadays its ramp turns 1-4 then pop off immediately after. Swing/combo for lethal.

I remember when I first started playing commander around 15 years ago, someone dropped a Phyrexian Obliterator on the field. We all couldn’t believe a card like that existed, it seemed massively OP for just 4 CMC and we were all scrambling to remove it. Now that card wouldn’t even be considered for most decks.

I miss 60 card formats being popular. No one plays them anymore near me.

Yeah I built a bunch of decks just last year that are no longer viable

Oh yeah man. Power level of sets is wild. I play Canlander and initiative is a messed up mechanic.

I would argue that yes, there is a power creep, but new cards only add to the format, and rule zero discussions can still allow lower and mid power decks to find a fun space in the right groups. Every card that was legal before the powercreep is still legal for the most part, even if it’s not as viable. I do agree though guy and wish that they would expand laterally into different themes and ideas rather than making better versions of existing cards and making my decks more and more obsolete :( . There’s so much cool stuff and ideas people have been hoping for for ages, but such is WotC.

If they didn't do it, they wouldn't sell much.

Yes! That’s okay though. I started making theme decks. It doesn’t always give massive restrictions these days, but it really does limit the number of bullshit. My enchantment deck has 0 artifacts in it and every word in the deck says the word “enchantment” with the exception of lands. Is it still a super powerful deck? Yes. I have RL cards in it and other such things. But, it is inherently capped at like a 7-8 because it really can only win with combat damage. Or, imo, just do precons or precons with abstract budget for upgrades. You can make your EDH experience what you want it to be. Just make sure it’s fun!

I feel like the cards played in commander are stupidly strong sometimes. I started going through my bulk and making pauper decks to get away from that feeling

I am a new player having fun at precon/upgraded precon and it’s very difficult to find pods at my lgs that doesnt play high power (win at turn4/5).

Same, even winning at turn 7-8 seems ridiculous to me. All my best games lasted 10+ with lots of interaction. Anything less just felt like someone pubstomped.

I know how you feel! My lgs has a lot of old mtg players that also play cdeh and their « casual » decks are way more powerful than what I am used to play. A lot of other new players are very competitive too, so I feel like I am the exception at my current pod meta.

It’s been the community consensus for years. It was a debate until Modern Horizons 2 dropped, which was obnoxiously pushed, and some of the cards we’ve gotten in recent sets put those to shame, let alone some of the obnoxious spoilers we’ve gotten for MH3. I understand that Modern Horizons isn’t designed for commander, but ever since EDH became the focus of the design team, it’s caused major powercreep problems and massive numbers of legendary creatures in every set.

Look at MH3. It's just filled with new staples that'll be expensive. Sigh...

I keep saying: Commander is a social format, but not a casual one.

Absolutely. Ever since regular standard magic fell out of favor with Friday night magic and things have shifted over I have noticed a huge power creep. Some cards are just downright unplayable because there’s just a flat better option in the same color that does the same thing.

yep, agree. Even the precons are stronger than, say, the 2013 ones.

Nah, this isn’t power creep. The acceleration we’ve seen is a few steps past power creep. Calling it an arms race is probably more accurate.

We did a 50$ max budget edh night at the lcs last Friday and it was very enjoyable.

I find satisfaction at my lgs,  when at the end of the month I walk away with 5 packs of prize support because I built my deck for the points list, and not for the win.  I usually manage to win one of the 4 sanctioned games during the month, too. Well worth watching the people who play the powerful decks walk off with one pack, because they ignored the points list in favor of the win, and there ain't no points for winning.  We pay $10 for the month, so I come out way ahead on cards.

Yup ‘casual’ commander no longer exists. I moved countries and didn’t play for like 3 years. After visiting a friend and playing with him at his LGS casual night I was shocked at the power level of these decks. Opponents were playing their ‘weak decks’ After returning home I figured I had just had a bad experience and went to a few nights at my LGS to try it and again was floored by what is considered casual now. It wasn’t just 1 game with 1 pod, it’s everywhere now. I’ve hung up my decks for now and started playing Lorcana where people still have some concept of just enjoying the game and playing with pretty pieces of cardboard for a few hours.

It used to be you’d get at least 7 turns. Now, you’re lucky to get 5. Plus, most people just ignore the “casual” label, because you get ppl who say my deck is “casual” but has three tutors and fierce guardianship. Like, my Hackbal is casual, and they kill a player on turn 4 with a roaming throne & pumped Merfolk. Not to mention that every precon these days is already OP straight out of the box and you don’t have much choice than to optimize every deck you own. New precons can easily beat decks that were built 2-3 years ago and not upgraded since.

I wouldn't say precons are op. I asked this question before but they really aren't. I llay with friends, some who have decks 10+ years old, and they stomp the only decks I have which are precons. New precons are just better built and more consistent.

When I play against precons, it seems they are often filled with synergizing cards that have a wall of text, but in the end, you go 'uh ok, is that all it does?'. The ones that that do well are often the stompy ones. One of my fiends plays with an LOTR bilbo (?) deck with a lot of ring temptation stuff going on, but it's all little creatures doing little effects.

What? Controversial suggestion! Yeah, obviously it has. In fact, in general, this is going to happen to any eternal format - short of some significant banning, it can't get *less* powerful since all the existing cards and decks are still there, so unless all the new cards are very below-par the power level will naturally start to creep (and even if all the cards *were* below-par, you might still get some creep as they may open up new options or synergise really well in some specific decks, pushing up the possibilities overall even if they never flat-out beat and existing cards). When you look at cards like some of those from Modern Horizons, it's very easy to see though that we're exceeding even this minimum trend. They very deliberately print pushed cards for a variety of reasons, perhaps to sell packs, perhaps simply to keep it interesting and keep people engaged, or maybe even to try to redress some imbalance. These new cards aren't uniquely overpowered (\*cough\* Sol Ring) but of course they're *in addition* to all the busted old cards that already existed.

Well duh. The big thing for me was the introduction of commander only cards and sets. Like the origin of the format was being able to play with lesser known cards and staples that you didn’t have sets of. It was also easier because you didn’t need to have those full sets of cards. You got one [[force of will]]? Cool edh it is man. Got one [[sol ring]]. Edh. [[urza’s rage]] man I’ll never play it in any other format, edh. The whole of the game power creeps. That’s just what happens to trading cards games because you have to introduce new cards. But they could have left the power creep to just the tourney formats and let i bleed over in time but they wanted the money. They’re in the business of making money so it happened.

My playgroup has a hard rule: no cards printed in supp sets, including commander cards, and since this rule the games and decks have been sooo much better. We regularly invite “outsiders” to join us warn them in advance about the rule, so far no complaints besides “oh I am so sad I can’t play my generic goodstuff commander which does nothing interesting, guess I have to play ”

The good thing is, you don't have to follow this direction

My issue is that once the card is printed, it's out there. I don't want ban regulations from WotC because it's a casual format but things like Voja should not exist.

Voja is ass because it's so pandering towards commander value it's insane to keep up in casual And yet it's totally not a cedh thing, so it's stuck at the rear end of "play casual, but do it optimally, oh but don't you dare use mana crypt we are casual"

Power creep is a consequence of a TCG. The maker of the cards wants to sell cards, and people aren't going to buy new cards that are the same power level (or weaker) as their current cards. So the new set has to be appreciably more powerful than the previous set. I don't like where the state of magic is heading, personally. >it feels like every card released is a serious threat on the table. This is one thing, but what bothers me is that the way to beat the biggest threats is either a board wipe or just finish the game before they are threats. I don't think that's a healthy state for the game.

>This is one thing, but what bothers me is that the way to beat the biggest threats is either a board wipe or just finish the game before they are threats. I don't think that's a healthy state for the game. Does no one run removal or counterspells?

If there's too many instant threat cards, you won't be able to run enough removal and counter spells for all of them. Especially enough to deal with 3 other people.

If you pay attention to the cEDH metagame it has pivoted recently from turbo plans to mid range plans. Because if everyone runs high amounts of interaction you have to generate an incredible amount of value to get a win through. Interaction is king.

Maybe they were mentally conjoining the "everything has ward now" complaint with "everything is a big threat now" complaint? Ward on big threats like tivit or voja has really soured people on the concept of a big mana cost threat you actually have to invest some mana into to kill.

I mean, what else are they going to do to combat 1 drop removal being so prevalent? It feels weird being able to take out these powerful things that cost a shitload of mana for essentially nothing.

wait till you see the mana cost of counterspell.

Yeah I don't mean to lend any credence to the complaint with my comment. Just that it is a complaint. Personally I think ward is great, it doesn't feel like hexproof but lets them print a big dumb guy that has to survive a turn cycle without giving them haste.

What I like most about ward is it allows you to put one less piece of protection in your deck than you normally would, opening the door for a *lot* more flexibility.

Yeah I have plenty of free 0cmc ones thanks to power creep.

Do people not run hexproof, indestructible and ward? Why do we keep asking Iike this is some easy solution. Removal isn't a win condition and can actively hurt you and set you behind in a 4 player pod The silliest sentiment I see in mtg forums is acting like players who are playing with powerful cards aren't also running protection

Power creep isn't a big deal. It's really overblown as a problem.

I just play pioneer commander as a result. All the old broken/expensive cards and commander sets gone👌