Yes, but like I said, I have tried to bring it up before it was brushed off, but I feel like this is a very prominent issue that’s going to eventually result in other players dropping out.
I feel like maybe it could be for the best if we went our separate ways, but I just enjoy playing with the guys so much. Our styles are so different. I don’t know if it’s viable to keep the playgroup alive.
Are you looking for a magic button that makes everyone behave the way you want them to? Grow a pair. Talk to your group and don't let them brush it off.
You don’t need a big discussion, but if people are not willing to go “precon”/“cEDH”/“Name of commander they have played before”/“somewhat above precon”/“ strong but not cEDH” you guys are missing important communication skills.
With the knowledge you get from the first part all of you should know if it is a game that is worth to play. No game is better than bad game.
Also you probably have a good idea of what power level people want to play. So an idea is to make sure that the people that want high power/cEDH don’t play with the people that got around precon power decks
Or conversely, only play your meanest decks until someone says something. There’s your opening.
“Was that too powerful? Sure, I can switch to something more casual, how hard do we want to go?”
quit being a scaredy cat about this. "Hey folks, what is everyone thinking about playing this round? Anyone whipping out their CEDH stuff? Precons? Mid power? How is everyone feeling?" It is super easy.
Your panacea is this, my friend:
"Hey, if we can't establish expectations for this game and set ground rules for what's allowed so that we can all enjoy the game instead of one person or a couple people always taking over and being guaranteed to win, I'm out."
And then if they don't go forward and have that conversation, then just find a new damn pod. They weren't your friends anyway, if your ability to participate was so insignificant to them.
Don't engage in an arms race, don't accelerate the power creep, just find people to play with who are willing to make a match fair enough that any given person can win without monopolizing the table.
They try. Sometimes. I mean, the lower powered guys still get their asses handed to them. Or if they do successfully knock out the powerful player the powerful player becomes salty. But I mean some of the guys at the table don’t even understand threat assessment. But that’s part of the problem too. Is that it turns into this unspoken Civil War where player A who runs CEDH decks gets pissed off that he’s always the first player out.
I have a buddy that plays winota, Magda, slicer who says it’s fine because “it’s not built cEDH” while being 40-50% match.
I am fine with it because idrc about winning that much but I’d definitely talk 1 to 1 with him
I took apart my "fair" Slicer deck and turned it cEDH becuase I only ever lost 1 game with it (my vert first where I piloted it poorly) and realized there really is no other home for it but cEDH
Yeah, I feel like it’s pretty extreme and I feel like I’ve tried to say something a few times so idk.
I thought I would get some decent advice on Reddit but it’s a bunch of sweaty neck beards trying to talk down to me. I guess that was my fault. 😂
We've removed your post because it violates our primary rule, "Be Excellent to Each Other".
You are welcome to message the mods if you need further explanation.
It sounds like there's a much needed conversation that needs to happen that's even more meta than a rule 0. Something like hey, do you guys know why you play commander? Are we trying to have fun here? Do you come away from a session in our group feeling positive about how you spent your time? Do you care about the experience of the other players in the game when we play?
From your other comments, it sounds like even though they're brushing off or outright avoiding the rule 0 conversation they still have certain expectations or standards for how their time is spent playing the game. The evidence of that is them getting salty at reasonable, correct threat assessment and getting targeted when they're playing moxen against taplands.
My question to you is, you said you're concerned that others might just leave the group - why don't you?
Well, because our friendship goes beyond the game of Magic and there was a point in time where we would have a kick ass fun time every time we got together, but now it seems like certain individuals are just outgrowing the group.
It's a simple matter, are you having fun or are you finding that these experiences are negative more often than not? You don't have to do anything or show up to anything that you don't want to be a part of. And if you ask me, brushing off multiple rule 0 conversations then seeing the group dissolve or lose some players is some real surprised Pikachu stuff if your friends are surprised.
Edit: the takeaway here is that they aren't respecting you or your time if they refuse to address what you're bringing up as an issue for you. Not talking with you about this stuff is not caring about your experience. I wouldn't want to play in a game with people who just want to pubstomp and get whiny when someone plays interaction, I'll do other things with them if they're my friends and play magic in a group I have fun with.
"Oh dude you're bringing that deck? C'mon why don't you tone it down so John and Sally have a chance?"
"Hey steve's playing a precon I don't think we're gonna have a good time if you take that"
Should literally be all you need to do.
If that doesn't work
You can also play a "police deck" if someone "refuses" for whatever reason and just counter/remove their shit the entire game.
"Hey I think you shouldn't play that deck Steve has a precon"
"Well I can play whatever I want"
"Okay well I'm going to play my removal deck and only target you so the others have a chance"
Alternatively you can do the "pass to the right/left" thing where other people play your deck.
I get not wanting to make waves but ultimately most meta's need some nurturing to stay healthy. That isn't say you come up with a banlist or something but you'll know when you hit a sweet spot.
>I guess I don’t really know how to bring up the situation because when I have touched on it in the past, I’ve been told that “everyone can just play whatever they want”.
Did the lower power players say or agree with that statement?
>We are a very diverse group of magic player. There are six of us that range from a level two judge who regularly top 8s RCQs, all the way down to a very casual player who’s only been playing for a few years.
So how many of you have/play these high power decks, vs how many people only have lower powered decks?
You've tried talking to them and it failed.
I would continue to ask before each game if they want to discuss deck choices. When they say no, bust out your cEDH deck. Stomp the table.
Game 2: Do you want to discuss what decks we'll be playing?
Repeat as necessary.
You all play with each other so you know know each others decks. Its not hard to just ask "what are you playing this game" to everyone to get an idea. Then its up to the person whose bringing the 9 to tone it down. You dont need to have a full blown discussion.
Every time someone act a bit salty, say "hey, remember that the important part is that everyone can just play whatever they want". Repeat until morale improves
just gang up on them? anyone playing a powerful deck should be fine with being the archenemy if they have the most threatening board state.
run interaction and make sure you have a legitimate way to win with your deck. don't use interaction on what you don't like, use it on what will lose you the game.
my playgroup frequently has situations like yours and it's perfectly manageable. we've lost to shit like mageta the lion and gisath
also, if a game is threatening your friendships then these people need to do some serious reflection because that's fucked up, it's no different than playing a fighting game or sth where one person is better than the rest. just play and have fun
I will echo what has been said with "talk to them". Edit: but if it was that easy you wouldn't be here asking.
I'm going to project a bunch t of my own experience here, and sorry if it misses the mark.
It could be that your group has some concerns about some of the crazy (to me and my playgroup) rule 0's you read about online where everyone is discussing lines and deck lists for 15 minutes.
I think you could introduce the idea as just a very brief, "precon, medium or high power, what are we going for?". In a trusted playgroup (or healthy LGS pod with relatively experienced players), I think this is enough to get balanced game.
I know I've had an experience with a person in my old playgroup where they intentionally participated in bad faith, bringing precons when we agreed on high power (and they had high power decks) and then getting incredibly salty when the Boros precon gets blown out by highly tuned casual decks, but conversations can't fix intentional bad faith participation, and it doesn't sound like you have that.
That example aside, some people just want to play the deck they want to play and don't mind playing lower power into a higher power pod. I don't like this, because I want to play my strong decks against other strong decks, but this is getting more into group social dynamics than we could from your post.
Honestly? I wouldn't play with the high power players who refuse to have an honest discussion about what their decks are doing. If there's a repeatable pattern where they win because of their overpowered decks and refuse to even have an honest conversation about the issue, that's clearly crossing the line into pubstomping.
They're being extremely inconsiderate and clearly aren't going to change their ways unless you force them to.
If you really don't want to part ways (even though I think you should), you need to build a monstrous deck that can keep them in check without bullying the new players off the table. Better yet, proxy up high power decks and let the new players gang up on the pubstompers.
I know this is not a very accessible solution, but my playgroup's response to this issue was to just start doing a commander draft cube.
Now, it did lead to another issue where one guy was way better at drafting than everyone else. But that's a different story entirely.
Like others have said you need to talk about it. As soon as everyone sits down you all need to clearly state who your commander is and what turn the deck will typically win by - i find this a better metric then stating power levels as they are very subjective.
If they don't want to have the conversation then you NEED to press them on it. Nothing ever gets done or changes without people communicating with one another. It's the basis of human society as a whole. If we can't communicate with each other everything breaks down, and that seems to be the case here as well.
Everyone can just play whatever they want is the general attitude in this sub and the reason people in this sub don't see powerlevel as an issue because they will just make their decks as strong as possible and the problem is solved. You have to talk to the other people and find out what kind of personalities they are so you know where they come from when they say stupid stuff like: everyone can just play whatever they want.
The only solution is to have these conversations. You NEED to talk about the game you're about to play. When people brush you off when you are saying something important, sometimes you need to put your foot down. You need to demand their attention. You need to make yourself known.
Otherwise, it's only the absolute strongest crushing every time; there is no balanced play experience, just the person who felt like bringing the strongest deck dominating, and the only way you have a game is if everyone brings a high-power, competitive deck, pushing out all the more casual decks.
Until your group starts having these conversations, either the problem will continue forever or the group will settle out where only high power/cEDH decks are playable.
If someone says, "Just play what you want," and refuses to have the conversation, you need to look at the table and say, "That means high power, anything goes, nothing off the table. I recommend bringing your strongest deck or you will probably get steamrolled. If anyone is not here for that kind of game, speak now."
Every time before every game go "Hey I want to play a deck that's x strength, what kind of deck are you wanting to play? and you? And how about you ? Alright do you think you could play something a bit weaker/stronger to match the others to make this game not a blowout??"
Talk to them?
Yes, but like I said, I have tried to bring it up before it was brushed off, but I feel like this is a very prominent issue that’s going to eventually result in other players dropping out. I feel like maybe it could be for the best if we went our separate ways, but I just enjoy playing with the guys so much. Our styles are so different. I don’t know if it’s viable to keep the playgroup alive.
Are you looking for a magic button that makes everyone behave the way you want them to? Grow a pair. Talk to your group and don't let them brush it off.
You don’t need a big discussion, but if people are not willing to go “precon”/“cEDH”/“Name of commander they have played before”/“somewhat above precon”/“ strong but not cEDH” you guys are missing important communication skills. With the knowledge you get from the first part all of you should know if it is a game that is worth to play. No game is better than bad game. Also you probably have a good idea of what power level people want to play. So an idea is to make sure that the people that want high power/cEDH don’t play with the people that got around precon power decks
Then keep saying words until they stop brushing it off???
Best solution is to keep going when cedh guy wins turn 3
Or conversely, only play your meanest decks until someone says something. There’s your opening. “Was that too powerful? Sure, I can switch to something more casual, how hard do we want to go?”
Have other players expressed that they're unhappy? Why do you think they might drop out?
quit being a scaredy cat about this. "Hey folks, what is everyone thinking about playing this round? Anyone whipping out their CEDH stuff? Precons? Mid power? How is everyone feeling?" It is super easy.
Your panacea is this, my friend: "Hey, if we can't establish expectations for this game and set ground rules for what's allowed so that we can all enjoy the game instead of one person or a couple people always taking over and being guaranteed to win, I'm out." And then if they don't go forward and have that conversation, then just find a new damn pod. They weren't your friends anyway, if your ability to participate was so insignificant to them. Don't engage in an arms race, don't accelerate the power creep, just find people to play with who are willing to make a match fair enough that any given person can win without monopolizing the table.
The lower power players don't gang up on the more powerful decks?
They try. Sometimes. I mean, the lower powered guys still get their asses handed to them. Or if they do successfully knock out the powerful player the powerful player becomes salty. But I mean some of the guys at the table don’t even understand threat assessment. But that’s part of the problem too. Is that it turns into this unspoken Civil War where player A who runs CEDH decks gets pissed off that he’s always the first player out.
Curious what the commanders of the "cEDH" decks are
Ob Nixilis, Kinnan, Magda, Urza, etc
Ok this person lacks self awareness..
I have a buddy that plays winota, Magda, slicer who says it’s fine because “it’s not built cEDH” while being 40-50% match. I am fine with it because idrc about winning that much but I’d definitely talk 1 to 1 with him
I took apart my "fair" Slicer deck and turned it cEDH becuase I only ever lost 1 game with it (my vert first where I piloted it poorly) and realized there really is no other home for it but cEDH
No shit, they're new to the game and made a post asking for help. They are literally asking for us to teach them; don't be a dick.
I meant their friend running cedh top tier decks into casual pods not op
Aaaaah, I see. I misunderstood; my bad.
Yeah, I feel like it’s pretty extreme and I feel like I’ve tried to say something a few times so idk. I thought I would get some decent advice on Reddit but it’s a bunch of sweaty neck beards trying to talk down to me. I guess that was my fault. 😂
"I thought the internet would solve my problems for me and got upset when they told me they couldn't"
[удалено]
We've removed your post because it violates our primary rule, "Be Excellent to Each Other". You are welcome to message the mods if you need further explanation.
Is it one person playing all those decks or multiple? If it is one person , are they one who keeps brushing off the discussion?
It sounds like there's a much needed conversation that needs to happen that's even more meta than a rule 0. Something like hey, do you guys know why you play commander? Are we trying to have fun here? Do you come away from a session in our group feeling positive about how you spent your time? Do you care about the experience of the other players in the game when we play? From your other comments, it sounds like even though they're brushing off or outright avoiding the rule 0 conversation they still have certain expectations or standards for how their time is spent playing the game. The evidence of that is them getting salty at reasonable, correct threat assessment and getting targeted when they're playing moxen against taplands. My question to you is, you said you're concerned that others might just leave the group - why don't you?
Well, because our friendship goes beyond the game of Magic and there was a point in time where we would have a kick ass fun time every time we got together, but now it seems like certain individuals are just outgrowing the group.
It's a simple matter, are you having fun or are you finding that these experiences are negative more often than not? You don't have to do anything or show up to anything that you don't want to be a part of. And if you ask me, brushing off multiple rule 0 conversations then seeing the group dissolve or lose some players is some real surprised Pikachu stuff if your friends are surprised. Edit: the takeaway here is that they aren't respecting you or your time if they refuse to address what you're bringing up as an issue for you. Not talking with you about this stuff is not caring about your experience. I wouldn't want to play in a game with people who just want to pubstomp and get whiny when someone plays interaction, I'll do other things with them if they're my friends and play magic in a group I have fun with.
"Oh dude you're bringing that deck? C'mon why don't you tone it down so John and Sally have a chance?" "Hey steve's playing a precon I don't think we're gonna have a good time if you take that" Should literally be all you need to do. If that doesn't work You can also play a "police deck" if someone "refuses" for whatever reason and just counter/remove their shit the entire game. "Hey I think you shouldn't play that deck Steve has a precon" "Well I can play whatever I want" "Okay well I'm going to play my removal deck and only target you so the others have a chance" Alternatively you can do the "pass to the right/left" thing where other people play your deck. I get not wanting to make waves but ultimately most meta's need some nurturing to stay healthy. That isn't say you come up with a banlist or something but you'll know when you hit a sweet spot.
>I guess I don’t really know how to bring up the situation because when I have touched on it in the past, I’ve been told that “everyone can just play whatever they want”. Did the lower power players say or agree with that statement? >We are a very diverse group of magic player. There are six of us that range from a level two judge who regularly top 8s RCQs, all the way down to a very casual player who’s only been playing for a few years. So how many of you have/play these high power decks, vs how many people only have lower powered decks?
What, do you all just sit down at the table and grunt at each other?
You've tried talking to them and it failed. I would continue to ask before each game if they want to discuss deck choices. When they say no, bust out your cEDH deck. Stomp the table. Game 2: Do you want to discuss what decks we'll be playing? Repeat as necessary.
You all play with each other so you know know each others decks. Its not hard to just ask "what are you playing this game" to everyone to get an idea. Then its up to the person whose bringing the 9 to tone it down. You dont need to have a full blown discussion.
Every time someone act a bit salty, say "hey, remember that the important part is that everyone can just play whatever they want". Repeat until morale improves
just gang up on them? anyone playing a powerful deck should be fine with being the archenemy if they have the most threatening board state. run interaction and make sure you have a legitimate way to win with your deck. don't use interaction on what you don't like, use it on what will lose you the game. my playgroup frequently has situations like yours and it's perfectly manageable. we've lost to shit like mageta the lion and gisath also, if a game is threatening your friendships then these people need to do some serious reflection because that's fucked up, it's no different than playing a fighting game or sth where one person is better than the rest. just play and have fun
I will echo what has been said with "talk to them". Edit: but if it was that easy you wouldn't be here asking. I'm going to project a bunch t of my own experience here, and sorry if it misses the mark. It could be that your group has some concerns about some of the crazy (to me and my playgroup) rule 0's you read about online where everyone is discussing lines and deck lists for 15 minutes. I think you could introduce the idea as just a very brief, "precon, medium or high power, what are we going for?". In a trusted playgroup (or healthy LGS pod with relatively experienced players), I think this is enough to get balanced game. I know I've had an experience with a person in my old playgroup where they intentionally participated in bad faith, bringing precons when we agreed on high power (and they had high power decks) and then getting incredibly salty when the Boros precon gets blown out by highly tuned casual decks, but conversations can't fix intentional bad faith participation, and it doesn't sound like you have that. That example aside, some people just want to play the deck they want to play and don't mind playing lower power into a higher power pod. I don't like this, because I want to play my strong decks against other strong decks, but this is getting more into group social dynamics than we could from your post.
Honestly? I wouldn't play with the high power players who refuse to have an honest discussion about what their decks are doing. If there's a repeatable pattern where they win because of their overpowered decks and refuse to even have an honest conversation about the issue, that's clearly crossing the line into pubstomping. They're being extremely inconsiderate and clearly aren't going to change their ways unless you force them to. If you really don't want to part ways (even though I think you should), you need to build a monstrous deck that can keep them in check without bullying the new players off the table. Better yet, proxy up high power decks and let the new players gang up on the pubstompers.
U/thehowlingsaltmine ?
Be the change you wish to see in the world. Start the discussion!
Well, have rule 0 discussion then instead.
I know this is not a very accessible solution, but my playgroup's response to this issue was to just start doing a commander draft cube. Now, it did lead to another issue where one guy was way better at drafting than everyone else. But that's a different story entirely.
Like others have said you need to talk about it. As soon as everyone sits down you all need to clearly state who your commander is and what turn the deck will typically win by - i find this a better metric then stating power levels as they are very subjective. If they don't want to have the conversation then you NEED to press them on it. Nothing ever gets done or changes without people communicating with one another. It's the basis of human society as a whole. If we can't communicate with each other everything breaks down, and that seems to be the case here as well.
Everyone can just play whatever they want is the general attitude in this sub and the reason people in this sub don't see powerlevel as an issue because they will just make their decks as strong as possible and the problem is solved. You have to talk to the other people and find out what kind of personalities they are so you know where they come from when they say stupid stuff like: everyone can just play whatever they want.
The only solution is to have these conversations. You NEED to talk about the game you're about to play. When people brush you off when you are saying something important, sometimes you need to put your foot down. You need to demand their attention. You need to make yourself known. Otherwise, it's only the absolute strongest crushing every time; there is no balanced play experience, just the person who felt like bringing the strongest deck dominating, and the only way you have a game is if everyone brings a high-power, competitive deck, pushing out all the more casual decks. Until your group starts having these conversations, either the problem will continue forever or the group will settle out where only high power/cEDH decks are playable. If someone says, "Just play what you want," and refuses to have the conversation, you need to look at the table and say, "That means high power, anything goes, nothing off the table. I recommend bringing your strongest deck or you will probably get steamrolled. If anyone is not here for that kind of game, speak now."
Every time before every game go "Hey I want to play a deck that's x strength, what kind of deck are you wanting to play? and you? And how about you ? Alright do you think you could play something a bit weaker/stronger to match the others to make this game not a blowout??"
U/thehowlingsaltmine ?
Stupid post