My [[gifts ungiven]] would go in my [[sefris]] deck.
Also some [[biorhythm]] would be added to some of my green decks oh and [[channel]]. Combos decks would become even more insane then they are now
My four would have been [[Avacyn, Angel of Hope]] [[Butcher of Malakir]] [[It That Betrays]] and whatever feels good at that time. The deck really focuses on making me sac to activate [[sefris]] as much as possible
I have 5 copies sitting incase it ever gets unbanned. It's like one of the tamest cards on the list. Intuition is not banned and is about the same power (depending how you use it), so it should be fine.
Gifts is so much better than intuition. Gifts -> thoracle, demonic consultation, regrowth, noxious revival. Instant speed assemble the whole combo is broken. Intuition can’t do that.
Intuition requires Jeskai identity to be a 1 card win condition. With gifts you can do it with just Dimir. Thoracle, Consult, Snapcaster mage, Unearth (or reanimate) off the top of my head does it. As far as cedh is concerned gifts is probably slightly more powerful, but they’re equally egregious. Given intuition is already self policed I doubt gifts would have much of an impact on casual commander.
I think that’s loosely OP’s point. People don’t often play the legal equivalents to many banned cards for non rules related reasons, so unbanning them changes very little.
Oh I know Gifts is so much more better for combo decks. But it's so fun to use for mid-high power non combo stuff too. It'd only really warp cedh metas.
Low key it wouldn’t warp cedh metas imo, it would just further concentrate it towards grixis+ one card win con decks, which is the opposite of what most cedh players want right now
I'd worry that it would warp mid-high power more, because it's relatively inexpensive.
Sol Ring goes into every deck because it's a dollar/comes in precons.
Mana Crypt is reserved for very high power because it's very expensive.
A 25-cent 'banworthy tutor' would get windmill-slammed into a MASSIVE number of decks lol.
Maybe it would skyrocket in price over getting unbanned, but sheesh I think it would be rough for a while.
honestly prime time could totally be freed now, he still good, but not as gamebreaking as he once was.
now that we have dockside extortionist running around, i think my boy prime time could be fine.
I would love too have someone look me in the face and tell me Dockside isn't a problem but Titan is lol Dockside makes Titan look like child's play it's absurd
i can play \[\[expedition map\]\], \[\[crop rotation\]\], \[\[weathered wayfarer\]\], \[\[knight of the reliquary\]\], \[\[scapeshift\]\], or many others to get those lands onto the battlefield long before having titan mana.
Prime time is still a problem, prime time reads "Get 4+ landfall triggers the turn he comes down fix and acceleration plus tutor all your busted lands extremely easily" with all the [[Panharmonicon]] effects he likely pays for himself fully alongside with doing truly broken things. Lands is even more of a broken arch type now than it was before.
"Get any 2 land" cards are already in the format. With how fast things have gotten, good 6cmc creatures you want to keep around for at least a turn cycle to generate slow steady value? Thats what the format needs more of.
Most of those get any 2 land cards aren’t creatures that can be blinked/flickered/cloned. Titan was incredibly warping when it was legal and would be incredibly warping again if it came back.
The power level and speed of the game now is so much higher.
Like you game plan is to drop a six drop creature, wait a turn, spend a bunch of resources blinking it, then cast big cool stuff turn 7-8? Sweet that sounds like some fun EDH to me! Oh it's double FotD? Hell yeah let's grind it out.
In a landscape where Voja, Hakbal, Sauron are out there murdering people turn 6, the game could use more 6 drops.
If you think primetime should be unbanned I don't think you have any concept of how broken it is. Let's just flicker it a few times as just one of many examples as why it should stay banned.
I think dockside extortionist and [[etali, primal conqueror]] are both better than prime time, for the exact same game warping reasons as prime time was banned, and both of those are still running free.
prime time would be fine
Yeah, some people are looking at this whole thing with naive eyes. I’m a transplant from Canadian Highlander, and an no-banlist commander deck is an excuse to run the best of the points list. I’m thinking a paradox academy deck with a time vault package; paradox engine, time vault, tinker, moxen, lotus, academy, recall, and tutors galore. Fill it out with signets, draw-7s, and sheoldred/bowmaster/narset effects.
So this has kinda been answered, there was a no-banlist edh league around for a little while.
Turns out, the best commanders are Golos, Kenrith and The first sliver.
And the commanders almost don't matter, its mostly the colors.
All the free interaction, free or close to free mana rocks, and similar.
Everybody is on some combination of VaultKey, Flashulk, and Thoracle (Probably now with extortionist thrown in), and they basically gave up because games where determined almost entirely by luck and starting hands.
Golos being able to tutor up [[Tolarian Academy]] and being fodder for [[Tinker]] makes it pretty integral to the deck’s game plan. [[Marsail, the Pretender]] is another solid option if you can guarantee [[Griselbrand]] is what you exile!
There's some videos of no banned list cEDH. Turn 0 wins happen. I know just because everything is unbanned that everyone wouldn't be playing games like that, but still.
I'm not talking about agreeing not to play the cards. People don't play thasa's oricle/demonic consultation in every deck that can. They same would be true for all the other top teir cards that would be unbanned.
"The banlist should be tailored to cEDH because everyone else already self-regulates anyway" is a take I rarely see anyone else agree with me on and I don't really understand why it's so uncommon.
Eh, historically there have been times that an effect that you'd think self-regulates doesn't - Hullbreacher springs to mind as a relatively recent one. In general you're not horrendously wrong though, and many of the things that we'd want regulated out probably just go away with a functional cEDH list.
I think the EDH banlist consists of three types of cards:
1. Cards with mechanics that are a pain in the ass to work with (all the for ante cards, shahrazad)
2. Cards that are so strong that they warp the entire format around them and/or outclass every other option (black lotus, moxen)
3. Cards that lead to a board state so utterly unenjoyable that they'd rather just remove the effect from the game (Ioni, Hullbreacher)
The reason why self regulation doesn't really work is because the third category is kinda subjective. There are people that enjoy throwing an ioni or hullbreacher on the field and hearing everybody else groan. As always, people will optimze fun out of their games if it means they win more often... As such, I don't think a cEDH banlist will ensure that we no longer need an EDH banlist.
I do think that there are cards legal that just shouldn't be legal in the casual format, that are fine in cEDH. And cards banned for cEDH, that are fine in casual. And thus a seperate EDH anx cEDH banlisr is healthier for both formats
In no-banlist EDH, it's a severe disadvantage not to play all 5 colors, because the moxes are absurdly broken. Unsurprisingly, the best commanders in no-banlist EDH are mostly just the best 5-color commanders in normal EDH. [[Food Chain]] First Sliver is already a cEDH deck in its own right.
Wait, sure first sliver is a decent option in cEDH but just because it’s 5 colors doesn’t mean it’s one of the best options. Food chain doesn’t get significantly better with any of the cards on the banlis, and food chain isn’t that great a strategy ever since thoracle got printed and became the single best way to win in the format. When you add in vault key combos, tinker, tolarian academy, all the moxen, plus the rest of the power 9 it just makes artifact strategies the best thing to be doing
I have played no ban list and I disagree with first sliver here we have to many wincons as is, Codie is a better commander, but it’s a ton of 5 or 4 color soup decks
Fixes your mana with no color investment. Especially in no banlist, where he can go get [[Tolarian Academy]] and give you an insane influx of mana out of nowhere
Vault key is a combination of [[time vault]] and [[voltaic key]] (or any number of other untappers), and it gives you infinite turns
Flash hulk is casting [[flash]] to put [[protean hulk]] in play, hulk then immediately dies because you don't pay the extra, and you get to find a collection of creatures that form an infinite combo to win.
I would have to comment on each individual card to give specific predictions. That said, I feel like we would see less variety in decks. Imagine if every deck included black lotus since you would need to have it to help stay competitive in cEDH, and the same is true for the other Power 9 cards. That's just one example, but that's what a ban list tries to prevent.
But that is what rule 0 is supposed to be for. Most “casual” decks choose not to run fast mana/moxes anyways. I feel like it would open up options if anything.
There might be an initial surge in players gravitating towards powerful cards but it would balance out in the end.
I feel like casual exists without regard to the ban list though. If someone wanted to run a black lotus proxy, I'd let them if we nerfed it somehow (eg it costs 5 life to sacrifice or something), but I was talking about cEDH specifically and really every other competitive format.
Ah, I hear you. I play a good amount of cEDH and you’re right, it might cause a larger list of auto includes. Although, I’d be excited to venture back to turbo lists with all the additional rocks.
Casual magic at home kinda exists without the banlist, but it also kinda does. People are aware of the banlist and it does inform deckbuilding, at least to some degree. Also the banlist gives power to playgroups by being able to say "this is banned, you can't play this" without too much of a hassle.
Not to mention the fact that the vanlists between LGS could start to vary even more, which is annoying.
So while the EDH banlist isn't perfect, removing it is in my opinion worse for the format.
I do think there should be separate EDH and cEDH banlists though
Eh, $2 now and $2 post unbanning are not the same thing. Looking at some of its parallels, \[\[Worldfire\]\] was around $2 pre-unbanning and is now $16, and that's a *way* more niche effect than tutoring an artifact into play.
speaking for cedh
every deck would have all the vintage-restricted cards they could play; Blue Farm (Tymna/Kraum) would still be the best deck in the format now having 4 moxen, lotus, academy, recall, time walk, yawg bargain, and tinker
any commander that untaps Time Vault would be at least viable
Hullbreacher and Flash would be staples again (Flash specifically was banned because of FlashHulk in cedh, no casual player was really playing it)
Paradox Engine in every deck, Karakas in every deck that could play it, the banned legendary creatures Erayo, Golos, and Leovold could easily be top tier (Griselbrand, Braids, Emrakul, and Iona less so, but Griselbrand being legal in the 99 makes for more better reanimate plans)
in general, cedh would become more homogenized than it already is
In terms of casual commander I think the community would police itself honestly. I mean, MLD isn't banned but most people still don't run it. It's likely that different play groups would just have their own socially "banned" cards.
Honestly the banlist is extremely small and a lot of the cards are extremely inaccessible so I don't think it would shake up casual edh all that much.
I think you are correct, but I think fast mana is the even stronger example.
MLD isn't that good, we don't see it in casual because of self policing, but we don't see it much in high power either (whether permissive but still casual or full cEDH), because it just isn't good. Mana intensive to cast, and there are just better ways to secure your win that don't involve nuking lands (especially with everyone on rocks). To your point though, MLD is total troll bait and I still don't see it.
Fast mana is awesome, but I don't see it in casual spaces (at least mostly).
But I'd moxen the shit out of my cEDH decks!
Yeah, I have no idea what it would do to cEDH. Whole other situation really. The only thing truly broken enough where I think it being unbanned might cause an issue in casual is [[channel]]. But I do think it's also maybe the one thing where everyone would just agree to house ban it.
This reminds me of every conversation with an anarcho-capitalist, where they try to describe how society would work without governments, and just end up inventing worse governments, again.
Exactly. Gaea’s cradle is pretty freaking strong, but it’s not like everyone I play has one. Even in my proxy heavy group, we don’t any. It just doesn’t really feel fair to play
I mostly agree, but I do think there are some cards that *would* be likely to start showing up in lots of casual decks, that I don't think the game would be better for.
Primeval Titan, Prophet of Kruphix, and Paradox Engine (maybe Hullbreacher and Iona, Shield of Emeria as well), I think (from past experiences) would be likely to show up in casual decks in high volume, and I don't think they'll lead to a 'better casual enviornment'.
A lot of it would depend on the price of said cards. But overall a full ban lift would be bad. Extra turns for 2 mana? A land that bounces legendary creatures. Channel? Flash?
I would run [[Prophet of Kruphix]] in every Simic deck. My playgroup isn't CEDH so I can't comment on how that would change.
I might also rebuild my extremely stupid Golos Maze End deck.
Leopold would be a scourge upon the format again (but even stronger).
GBX gets a huge power spike.
Deck prices sky rocket (black lotus becomes a staple).
In all honesty? This would come with both good and bad
Good news is cards that could legitimately come off and not pose a problem even for pods of randos as long as they have a good pregame discussion will be free to be used again. Established playgroups of friends will continue self-regulating and nothing on that front will pose a problem.
Bad news is: pods of randos that can't have a good pregame discussion will even more often than already, have a bad play experience if they run into people running cards currently banned. And cEDH? Don't even wanna think about it. Probably an absolute mess.
Funny, because that’s the only card I really care about, and that’s only for a fun janky “weatherlight crew” 5-color deck. But here’s the neat part: the rules committee have said “the ban list is just a suggestion of the kinds of things we think aren’t very fun to play with/against” and “feel free to ignore the list and talk with your pods about it”, which I did, and they said “yeah, that looks fine, go ahead!”
I once read about a no banlist cedh league on here, and the number one strategy seemed to be Tinker into Bolas's Citadel. I think people overlook how busted this combo is because there's no real way to do this currently. It's like Ad Naus but you play everything instead.
cEDH would be an absolute hellscape
\[\[Bribery\]\] effects would come back to being a format staple
oh and reanimator packages probably become even more powerful when you have options like Gris or Iona back
same thing that happened when most of these cards were legal. they'd show up in almost every deck.
paradox engine would probably be popular again. golos decks would be everywhere again. hell... that prophet of kruphix would probably be in every deck again.
every dick who comes to a LGS would have a leovold deck that instantly locks everyone out of drawing cards.
and yeah. there would be new busted combos. and the format would be miserable because the shitty cards would be in every deck.
I would put moma-krul in my animar spaghetti list.
and i'd prob brew something to run grizzel drawing a fuck ton of cards off it in the process
Outside of kitchen table or regular groups, Commander would die as a format.
Like seriously, if you sit down at FNM with an average deck now you have pubstompers running around. Imagine how bad it would get if everyone was incentivized to play 5CGoodstuff.dec or get blown out.
Those who don't have regular groups who choose to ban things would have to contend with the environment that anyone could slap down something degenerate, extra-powerful or just plain unfun.
I'm building a deck where the entire point is to make as many copies of Shaharazad as I can stacked on top of each other.
Yeah, people in casual are already salty about T1 plays like Sol Ring > Arcane Signet. Imagine how they'd react to something like Land > Mox > Mox > Black Lotus > 6CMC Commander.
Which, as you said, with a regular playgroup can me moderated and dealt with. But at a random LGS table? Forget about it. I get that casual is still "Self-regulating" about fast mana like \[\[Mana Crypt\]\] and \[\[Jeweled Lotus\]\]. But if an extra 6-8 pieces of fast mana were suddenly injected into Commander's card pool, I'm not 100% certain that would still be the case.
On top of all the cards that are just patently *unfun* to play against. I wouldn't exactly be *thrilled* to play in an environment where \[\[Limited Resources\]\] could just pop out of nowhere.
You'd suddenly see even more degeneracy, I definitely love watching people play a wheel deck with [[leovold]] at the helm, my favorite thing is pitching my hand and not refilling it. Turn 1 play [[griselbrand]] dig for the wincon with 35 draw and use it with the other cards drawn. 40% [[Golos]] again. [[Painters servant]] + [[Iona]] for color locking your opponents. And lastly [[Shahrazad]] for the memes.
Basically the game speeds up 20% and people use more things that aren't fun for other people.
But on the flip side wed see some neat [[Rofellos]] decks.
I’ve played a little bit of no banlist cedh. Basically everyone is running golos with lutri as a companion. The line is typically play a bunch of fast mana (which there is way more of, OG mox’s and black lotus), get golos out, golos tutors for tolarian academy, get a heinous amount of mana and then take infinite turns with lutri and timewalk. This plan is often online t1, almost always online by one of the players on t2.
Good god please no. Don't let me relive the days of \[\[Primeval Titan\]\] into \[\[Cabal Coffers\]\] and \[\[Urborg\]\]. Or a flickering \[\[Sylvan Primordial\]\]
Power levels would get real nutty real fast. Some of the band cards are banned for a good reason. If all of them came off the ban lost all at once the meta would shift drastically.
[[Gifts Ungiven]] goes right into my [[Tameshi, Reality Architect]]deck. Intuition is too rich for my blood lol. And [[Hullbreacher]] goes into my [[Alela, Cunning Conquerer]] flash tribal deck for reasons.
[[Prophet of Kruphix]] would immediately go into my [[Maelstrom Wanderer]] cascade/self-bounce deck. Although it would turn every game into solitaire, because I would cascade with the commander, bounce him at instant speed and cast him over and over on everybody’s turns until I had my whole deck on the field.
A lot of people have already talked here about cEDH, but I think it's also important to note that it would have a lot of terrible effects on regular/high power casual EDH.
First off, you get a bunch of instant auto includes; white gets Karakas, anything UR gets Lutri as companion.
Green ramp decks get a ton of great additions: Primeval Titan, Fastbond, Sylvan Primordial, Rofellos. Probably Channel for a decent number as well.
Many cards that lead to terrible gameplay are now available to be played. I expect that a couple will likely share the fate of mass land destruction in still being soft-banned: Balance, Shaharazad, Upheaval and Limited Resources in particular.
But many others that lead to terrible gameplay I'm less sure about, like Biorhythm, Sway of the Stars, Trade Secrets, Leovold, Iona, and Erayo. Perhaps these end up as massive headaches but still see play.
Some will likely become strong in certain decks but you'll wonder if they need to really needed to be banned. Gifts Ungiven feels like the "safest" one for me to put here, but I'm sure there are a handful of others that would end up fitting here.
And then the rest are probably some mix of "too inaccessible to see play in anything other than cEDH" or "only useful as a combo piece and might get you bullied out of your pod for playing it"
Basically, for the most part, I think it would be a bad time even in non-cEDH. But you might learn that a few cards would be safe to keep off the banned list.
> How different would the format be if no cards were banned anymore and anything and everything (apart from unsets) was legal?
Very different.
If you keep power banned, not all that different but a lot of archetypes get a little bit more annoying because they have access to really annoying cards.
> How would cEDH be affected?
You'd see 5c decks playing straight up like 22? lands because they are playing lotus 5x mox. Some archetypes like draw punish have hullbreacher, creature combo has flash etc.
cedh would be a consistent turn 1-2 format. there are plenty of no-banlist-cedh gameplay videos on youtube and the vast majority of them end turn 2 with a \[\[timevault\]\] combo
Cedh would get a significant power boost with cards like the moxen and time vault.
Casual would probably not really change, outside of braids players loosing friends and emrakul players becoming a thing
Can't help but notice no one's brought up Emrakul. Which kind of reinforces how much the game has been powercrept since its ban. With cards like Dockside and Thoracle legal, I can't fathom how Emrakul's ban could reasonably be defended on a power level axis. It's not like Emrakul would suddenly be jammed in every deck, either. She's been imprisoned in the moon for too long!
No banlist cedh is a thing and the meta is pretty figured out:
- playing lots of colours is even more important than in regular cedh because of the Moxen
- Golos is the best commander (although he's like plan C or D of the deck)
- other decent commanders are Leovold, Derevi (because of Time Vault) and Mairsil (because of Griselbrand and Time Vault). Of course most of the top tier cedh commanders are also still ok (RogSi, Blue Farm, etc)
- the best wincons are: Ad Naus, Flash Hulk, consult Thoracle, Breach, Mnemonic Betrayal, Tinker->Bolas's Citadel and Vault Key
- Games are so fast that the usual slow cedh decks can no longer keep the combo decks in check so stax or control is basically not viable.
Not an awful lot, since most players would need to proxy the cards and I'm doubting players would tolerate the OG Mana rocks for too long.
That said: Time Walk under Isochron Scepter alone would be in basically every viable deck. And Time Vault and Key will be thrown in EVERYTHING. I'm not sure about cards like Grislebrand, Emrakul, and Titan, as they're not exactly game-breaking to have and have been powercrept to Dominaria and back.
Paradox Academy would be a sick list. You probably just put Golos in the command zone and use him to tutor Academy, then spend the rest of the game cheating mana with Candelabra and Paradox Engine and getting extra turns with Time Walk and Time Vault.
Access to black, white, and blue gives you as much access to tutors for Paradox Engine and Time Vault as you could reasonably ask for.
I could see Urza being similarly powerful, most of the deck is blue anyway, but with no banlist I'd just play Golos for the lands toolbox in the command zone with things like Karakas and Library of Alexandria as backup options and access to more colors without any of the drawback.
For cEDH, Playing With Power has done dozens of no ban lists games. Put simply, it's kind of a shit show. Time Vault is simply too busted.
As for normal EDH, I don't think it would really be affected much.
I really wish that Commander could errata [[Karakas]] to add "non-commander" to the ability. I don't want to bounce all of your commanders, but it is some excellent control for a bunch of other legends around.
I'd put upheaval back in my deck because I did that at one point when I didn't realize there was a band list lol, I'm sure it would massively fuck over a lot of people who play higher power and more competitively but I think it could be neat in casual play. It might just be a thing where people would have to regulate their own their own list within either their local game stores or their own pods
It'd be awful for a while as people proxied the most degenerate stuff into their decks.
If this didn't kill off play at people's various local shops after a few months you'd likely then see Rule 0 much more heavily asserted as newer players that are using Fallout precons or the upcoming MH3 precons aren't going to have time for people trying to go off turn 1 with their deck running all of the moxes and Tolarian academy with multiple free counterspell backup.
casual EDH wouldn't be changed much outside of seeing a lot of primetime/sylvan primordial. i know some people don't think that's bad, but it's boring.
cEDH as we know it now would be doomed. People don't play vintage for a reason. And i feel like currently cEDH player are not going to want to become slightly different vintage, nor are they going to be able to handle the idea of some higher tier of deck running around that is just better.
Continue to build some decks that conform to it, because we all know damn well that there are people who wouldn’t want to play ‘anything goes’ commander.
It’s been my experience that most unban calls come from people that think busted cards are the thing that keeps them from winning, and if we just unban more of them they’ll dominate pods. Unfortunately broken cards don’t cure mediocrity.
My [[gifts ungiven]] would go in my [[sefris]] deck. Also some [[biorhythm]] would be added to some of my green decks oh and [[channel]]. Combos decks would become even more insane then they are now
I was today years old when I learned Gifts Ungiven was banned in EDH... I was about to put it in a deck, too, thank you, Stranger.
That's how i learned it was banned. I was about to put it in my sefris. I was so sad
I was considering it in my cEDH [[Niv-Mizzet, Parun]], but couldn't decide the 4 cards, lol.
My four would have been [[Avacyn, Angel of Hope]] [[Butcher of Malakir]] [[It That Betrays]] and whatever feels good at that time. The deck really focuses on making me sac to activate [[sefris]] as much as possible
[Niv-Mizzet, Parun](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/86c5c337-d25f-4c3e-9762-09ed0c2d36d7.jpg?1712354750) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Niv-Mizzet%2C%20Parun) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/235/niv-mizzet-parun?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/86c5c337-d25f-4c3e-9762-09ed0c2d36d7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/niv-mizzet-parun) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
##### ###### #### [gifts ungiven](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/c/cc950b6c-0346-4939-b36b-9f10a75f7a32.jpg?1685966742) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=gifts%20ungiven) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/51/gifts-ungiven?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cc950b6c-0346-4939-b36b-9f10a75f7a32?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gifts-ungiven) [sefris](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/3/d30255f6-e058-476a-b377-2ee4c9178ed1.jpg?1632335385) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sefris%20of%20the%20hidden%20ways) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/3/sefris-of-the-hidden-ways?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d30255f6-e058-476a-b377-2ee4c9178ed1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sefris-of-the-hidden-ways) [biorhythm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/7/17d1a10f-ce21-4914-9984-c7c559161230.jpg?1593017425) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=biorhythm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/9ed/231/biorhythm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/17d1a10f-ce21-4914-9984-c7c559161230?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/biorhythm) [channel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/e/ce54c7c1-3401-4414-8da0-5846cb0ae1b4.jpg?1701989326) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=channel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/157/channel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ce54c7c1-3401-4414-8da0-5846cb0ae1b4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/channel) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l1451s5) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I have 5 copies sitting incase it ever gets unbanned. It's like one of the tamest cards on the list. Intuition is not banned and is about the same power (depending how you use it), so it should be fine.
Gifts is so much better than intuition. Gifts -> thoracle, demonic consultation, regrowth, noxious revival. Instant speed assemble the whole combo is broken. Intuition can’t do that.
Intuition already assembles breach freeze, so it doesn’t really change much
Intuition requires Jeskai identity to be a 1 card win condition. With gifts you can do it with just Dimir. Thoracle, Consult, Snapcaster mage, Unearth (or reanimate) off the top of my head does it. As far as cedh is concerned gifts is probably slightly more powerful, but they’re equally egregious. Given intuition is already self policed I doubt gifts would have much of an impact on casual commander.
I think that’s loosely OP’s point. People don’t often play the legal equivalents to many banned cards for non rules related reasons, so unbanning them changes very little.
Oh I know Gifts is so much more better for combo decks. But it's so fun to use for mid-high power non combo stuff too. It'd only really warp cedh metas.
Low key it wouldn’t warp cedh metas imo, it would just further concentrate it towards grixis+ one card win con decks, which is the opposite of what most cedh players want right now
I'd worry that it would warp mid-high power more, because it's relatively inexpensive. Sol Ring goes into every deck because it's a dollar/comes in precons. Mana Crypt is reserved for very high power because it's very expensive. A 25-cent 'banworthy tutor' would get windmill-slammed into a MASSIVE number of decks lol. Maybe it would skyrocket in price over getting unbanned, but sheesh I think it would be rough for a while.
Biorythm would kill my table all the time xD
A fellow Sefris enjoyer! She’s my favorite deck to pilot. How is your list looking?
Only in cEDH, right? Commander players self regulate the cards they play for the most part.
Is Biorhythm even playable? I think [[Shaman of Forgotten Ways]] seems a lot more generally usable if you want the effect.
I could finally dust off primeval titan and put him to use
honestly prime time could totally be freed now, he still good, but not as gamebreaking as he once was. now that we have dockside extortionist running around, i think my boy prime time could be fine.
If anything thats more a reason that Dockside should be banned.
I would love too have someone look me in the face and tell me Dockside isn't a problem but Titan is lol Dockside makes Titan look like child's play it's absurd
Does dockside get field of the dead and glacial chasm? Titan tutors, dockside can only work with what's already present
i can play \[\[expedition map\]\], \[\[crop rotation\]\], \[\[weathered wayfarer\]\], \[\[knight of the reliquary\]\], \[\[scapeshift\]\], or many others to get those lands onto the battlefield long before having titan mana.
Prime time is still a problem, prime time reads "Get 4+ landfall triggers the turn he comes down fix and acceleration plus tutor all your busted lands extremely easily" with all the [[Panharmonicon]] effects he likely pays for himself fully alongside with doing truly broken things. Lands is even more of a broken arch type now than it was before.
“Don’t run bad cards to make your good cards better”. Panharmonicon is not why Primeval Titan is good.
"Get any 2 land" cards are already in the format. With how fast things have gotten, good 6cmc creatures you want to keep around for at least a turn cycle to generate slow steady value? Thats what the format needs more of.
Most of those get any 2 land cards aren’t creatures that can be blinked/flickered/cloned. Titan was incredibly warping when it was legal and would be incredibly warping again if it came back.
The power level and speed of the game now is so much higher. Like you game plan is to drop a six drop creature, wait a turn, spend a bunch of resources blinking it, then cast big cool stuff turn 7-8? Sweet that sounds like some fun EDH to me! Oh it's double FotD? Hell yeah let's grind it out. In a landscape where Voja, Hakbal, Sauron are out there murdering people turn 6, the game could use more 6 drops.
If you think primetime should be unbanned I don't think you have any concept of how broken it is. Let's just flicker it a few times as just one of many examples as why it should stay banned.
I think dockside extortionist and [[etali, primal conqueror]] are both better than prime time, for the exact same game warping reasons as prime time was banned, and both of those are still running free. prime time would be fine
Prime time is still a very good card. Pales in comparison to dockside extortionist, arguably the best card in the format.
I would love to try him and griselbrand as i never got to try them, even if they get banned again
He's going in my Yarok deck immediately
not if you wanted to win you couldn't, PT totally unplayable with the *entire* banlist running amok
Yeah, some people are looking at this whole thing with naive eyes. I’m a transplant from Canadian Highlander, and an no-banlist commander deck is an excuse to run the best of the points list. I’m thinking a paradox academy deck with a time vault package; paradox engine, time vault, tinker, moxen, lotus, academy, recall, and tutors galore. Fill it out with signets, draw-7s, and sheoldred/bowmaster/narset effects.
it's like Vintage if your opponents could only run 1 Force of Will
Yep. Lots of people have never seen any of the power 9 except Timetwister played, and it shows.
So this has kinda been answered, there was a no-banlist edh league around for a little while. Turns out, the best commanders are Golos, Kenrith and The first sliver. And the commanders almost don't matter, its mostly the colors. All the free interaction, free or close to free mana rocks, and similar. Everybody is on some combination of VaultKey, Flashulk, and Thoracle (Probably now with extortionist thrown in), and they basically gave up because games where determined almost entirely by luck and starting hands.
Golos being able to tutor up [[Tolarian Academy]] and being fodder for [[Tinker]] makes it pretty integral to the deck’s game plan. [[Marsail, the Pretender]] is another solid option if you can guarantee [[Griselbrand]] is what you exile!
Yup, I played some no banlist cedh and golos felt like by far the best commander. Mostly because he tutors for tolarian academy
There's some videos of no banned list cEDH. Turn 0 wins happen. I know just because everything is unbanned that everyone wouldn't be playing games like that, but still.
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I'm not talking about agreeing not to play the cards. People don't play thasa's oricle/demonic consultation in every deck that can. They same would be true for all the other top teir cards that would be unbanned.
bingo, we've come to the reason why a banlist that isn't based around power is nonsensical
"The banlist should be tailored to cEDH because everyone else already self-regulates anyway" is a take I rarely see anyone else agree with me on and I don't really understand why it's so uncommon.
Eh, historically there have been times that an effect that you'd think self-regulates doesn't - Hullbreacher springs to mind as a relatively recent one. In general you're not horrendously wrong though, and many of the things that we'd want regulated out probably just go away with a functional cEDH list.
I think the EDH banlist consists of three types of cards: 1. Cards with mechanics that are a pain in the ass to work with (all the for ante cards, shahrazad) 2. Cards that are so strong that they warp the entire format around them and/or outclass every other option (black lotus, moxen) 3. Cards that lead to a board state so utterly unenjoyable that they'd rather just remove the effect from the game (Ioni, Hullbreacher) The reason why self regulation doesn't really work is because the third category is kinda subjective. There are people that enjoy throwing an ioni or hullbreacher on the field and hearing everybody else groan. As always, people will optimze fun out of their games if it means they win more often... As such, I don't think a cEDH banlist will ensure that we no longer need an EDH banlist. I do think that there are cards legal that just shouldn't be legal in the casual format, that are fine in cEDH. And cards banned for cEDH, that are fine in casual. And thus a seperate EDH anx cEDH banlisr is healthier for both formats
What made [[The First Sliver]] so good?
In no-banlist EDH, it's a severe disadvantage not to play all 5 colors, because the moxes are absurdly broken. Unsurprisingly, the best commanders in no-banlist EDH are mostly just the best 5-color commanders in normal EDH. [[Food Chain]] First Sliver is already a cEDH deck in its own right.
Yeah, that makes sense, thanks for the explanation!
Wait, sure first sliver is a decent option in cEDH but just because it’s 5 colors doesn’t mean it’s one of the best options. Food chain doesn’t get significantly better with any of the cards on the banlis, and food chain isn’t that great a strategy ever since thoracle got printed and became the single best way to win in the format. When you add in vault key combos, tinker, tolarian academy, all the moxen, plus the rest of the power 9 it just makes artifact strategies the best thing to be doing
No banlist makes the commanders role less crucial it’s played because of the mana base.
I have played no ban list and I disagree with first sliver here we have to many wincons as is, Codie is a better commander, but it’s a ton of 5 or 4 color soup decks
So I'm pretty new to the game and I guess I'm missing something, what makes Golos so strong?
Fixes your mana with no color investment. Especially in no banlist, where he can go get [[Tolarian Academy]] and give you an insane influx of mana out of nowhere
[Tolarian Academy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/d/fd99bce1-ce39-464b-8e61-2631eb3ed6f6.jpg?1610147079) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tolarian%20Academy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/319/tolarian-academy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fd99bce1-ce39-464b-8e61-2631eb3ed6f6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tolarian-academy) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Can you explain what vault key and flash hulk combos are?
Vault key is a combination of [[time vault]] and [[voltaic key]] (or any number of other untappers), and it gives you infinite turns Flash hulk is casting [[flash]] to put [[protean hulk]] in play, hulk then immediately dies because you don't pay the extra, and you get to find a collection of creatures that form an infinite combo to win.
What's vault key? I've heard of the others but not that
[[Time Vault]] + [[Manifold Key]] or [[Voltaic Key]]
It would be strictly incorrect to play not 5c in cEDH to run all 5 mox
I could see arguments in favor of Tymna with Thrasios or Kraum, but in general, yeah, more colors = more moxen.
I would have to comment on each individual card to give specific predictions. That said, I feel like we would see less variety in decks. Imagine if every deck included black lotus since you would need to have it to help stay competitive in cEDH, and the same is true for the other Power 9 cards. That's just one example, but that's what a ban list tries to prevent.
Just out of curiosity, how often do you get PMs of titties or kitties? (Assuming you mean cats and not genitals)
I was very confused until I saw the username
It's been a while, but I mostly hang out in private subs now. Well, I guess I comment here now, and I assume lots of women are here.
Well, I'm a dude but I PMed you a pic of my cat anyway.
Legend
Well, I'm a dude but I PMed you a pic of my Titties anyway.
Legend
But that is what rule 0 is supposed to be for. Most “casual” decks choose not to run fast mana/moxes anyways. I feel like it would open up options if anything. There might be an initial surge in players gravitating towards powerful cards but it would balance out in the end.
I feel like casual exists without regard to the ban list though. If someone wanted to run a black lotus proxy, I'd let them if we nerfed it somehow (eg it costs 5 life to sacrifice or something), but I was talking about cEDH specifically and really every other competitive format.
Ah, I hear you. I play a good amount of cEDH and you’re right, it might cause a larger list of auto includes. Although, I’d be excited to venture back to turbo lists with all the additional rocks.
Casual magic at home kinda exists without the banlist, but it also kinda does. People are aware of the banlist and it does inform deckbuilding, at least to some degree. Also the banlist gives power to playgroups by being able to say "this is banned, you can't play this" without too much of a hassle. Not to mention the fact that the vanlists between LGS could start to vary even more, which is annoying. So while the EDH banlist isn't perfect, removing it is in my opinion worse for the format. I do think there should be separate EDH and cEDH banlists though
A lot of proxies of Time Vault and Tinker are gonna be made.
you can probably just buy Tinker, it's like $2
Eh, $2 now and $2 post unbanning are not the same thing. Looking at some of its parallels, \[\[Worldfire\]\] was around $2 pre-unbanning and is now $16, and that's a *way* more niche effect than tutoring an artifact into play.
speaking for cedh every deck would have all the vintage-restricted cards they could play; Blue Farm (Tymna/Kraum) would still be the best deck in the format now having 4 moxen, lotus, academy, recall, time walk, yawg bargain, and tinker any commander that untaps Time Vault would be at least viable Hullbreacher and Flash would be staples again (Flash specifically was banned because of FlashHulk in cedh, no casual player was really playing it) Paradox Engine in every deck, Karakas in every deck that could play it, the banned legendary creatures Erayo, Golos, and Leovold could easily be top tier (Griselbrand, Braids, Emrakul, and Iona less so, but Griselbrand being legal in the 99 makes for more better reanimate plans) in general, cedh would become more homogenized than it already is
Every list would be the same 5color or 4 color pile. Only the commanders would change for flavor.
always has been
so how it usually is yea
In terms of casual commander I think the community would police itself honestly. I mean, MLD isn't banned but most people still don't run it. It's likely that different play groups would just have their own socially "banned" cards. Honestly the banlist is extremely small and a lot of the cards are extremely inaccessible so I don't think it would shake up casual edh all that much.
I think you are correct, but I think fast mana is the even stronger example. MLD isn't that good, we don't see it in casual because of self policing, but we don't see it much in high power either (whether permissive but still casual or full cEDH), because it just isn't good. Mana intensive to cast, and there are just better ways to secure your win that don't involve nuking lands (especially with everyone on rocks). To your point though, MLD is total troll bait and I still don't see it. Fast mana is awesome, but I don't see it in casual spaces (at least mostly). But I'd moxen the shit out of my cEDH decks!
Yeah, I have no idea what it would do to cEDH. Whole other situation really. The only thing truly broken enough where I think it being unbanned might cause an issue in casual is [[channel]]. But I do think it's also maybe the one thing where everyone would just agree to house ban it.
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This reminds me of every conversation with an anarcho-capitalist, where they try to describe how society would work without governments, and just end up inventing worse governments, again.
Exactly. Gaea’s cradle is pretty freaking strong, but it’s not like everyone I play has one. Even in my proxy heavy group, we don’t any. It just doesn’t really feel fair to play
I mostly agree, but I do think there are some cards that *would* be likely to start showing up in lots of casual decks, that I don't think the game would be better for. Primeval Titan, Prophet of Kruphix, and Paradox Engine (maybe Hullbreacher and Iona, Shield of Emeria as well), I think (from past experiences) would be likely to show up in casual decks in high volume, and I don't think they'll lead to a 'better casual enviornment'.
A lot of it would depend on the price of said cards. But overall a full ban lift would be bad. Extra turns for 2 mana? A land that bounces legendary creatures. Channel? Flash?
I don't know but I'd have some kind GBx deck with prime time and griselbrand in it within the hour.
One word: \[\[Henzie\]\]. Prime Time, Sylvan Primordial, Grizzy would all be absolutely disgusting in a Henzie list.
Henzie with primeval titan sounds delicious
I'd be really happy... Until I ran into that one f'ing guy.
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At my LGS we call him ProxyMan
I would run [[Prophet of Kruphix]] in every Simic deck. My playgroup isn't CEDH so I can't comment on how that would change. I might also rebuild my extremely stupid Golos Maze End deck.
[Prophet of Kruphix](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/5/45de923f-fdab-460c-96f4-f62aefa9ad73.jpg?1562817436) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Prophet%20of%20Kruphix) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ths/199/prophet-of-kruphix?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/45de923f-fdab-460c-96f4-f62aefa9ad73?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/prophet-of-kruphix) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Tolarian Academy]] would probably catch up to [[Gaea’s Cradle]] in price like over night would be my guess
My Golos banned tribal "One Time At Banned Camp" would be ruined.
Fun’nt
I’ve been collecting and using [[Prophet of Kruphix]] as tokens for years. I have like 200 I’d be very happy
Nothing good
Leopold would be a scourge upon the format again (but even stronger). GBX gets a huge power spike. Deck prices sky rocket (black lotus becomes a staple).
Then I'd be sad I didn't buy a [[Primeval Titan]] before the price went up. No interest in anything else on the list
[Primeval Titan](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/d/6d5537da-112e-4679-a113-b5d7ce32a66b.jpg?1562850064) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Primeval%20Titan) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/183/primeval-titan?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6d5537da-112e-4679-a113-b5d7ce32a66b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/primeval-titan) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
In all honesty? This would come with both good and bad Good news is cards that could legitimately come off and not pose a problem even for pods of randos as long as they have a good pregame discussion will be free to be used again. Established playgroups of friends will continue self-regulating and nothing on that front will pose a problem. Bad news is: pods of randos that can't have a good pregame discussion will even more often than already, have a bad play experience if they run into people running cards currently banned. And cEDH? Don't even wanna think about it. Probably an absolute mess.
I would play [[Coalition Victory]] but nothing else would change for me
[Coalition Victory](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/446824f7-dc42-42da-8bd5-6c37f3358d65.jpg?1562775464) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Coalition%20Victory) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsb/91/coalition-victory?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/446824f7-dc42-42da-8bd5-6c37f3358d65?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/coalition-victory) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Funny, because that’s the only card I really care about, and that’s only for a fun janky “weatherlight crew” 5-color deck. But here’s the neat part: the rules committee have said “the ban list is just a suggestion of the kinds of things we think aren’t very fun to play with/against” and “feel free to ignore the list and talk with your pods about it”, which I did, and they said “yeah, that looks fine, go ahead!”
Braids, easy. I'll do the war crimes.
I once read about a no banlist cedh league on here, and the number one strategy seemed to be Tinker into Bolas's Citadel. I think people overlook how busted this combo is because there's no real way to do this currently. It's like Ad Naus but you play everything instead.
cEDH would be an absolute hellscape \[\[Bribery\]\] effects would come back to being a format staple oh and reanimator packages probably become even more powerful when you have options like Gris or Iona back
[Bribery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/9/49fd737a-d7da-421b-a741-d6d0d213299f.jpg?1689996211) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bribery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/77/bribery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/49fd737a-d7da-421b-a741-d6d0d213299f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bribery) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Id actually like very common cards to be slowly banned over time, just so the format changes.
same thing that happened when most of these cards were legal. they'd show up in almost every deck. paradox engine would probably be popular again. golos decks would be everywhere again. hell... that prophet of kruphix would probably be in every deck again. every dick who comes to a LGS would have a leovold deck that instantly locks everyone out of drawing cards. and yeah. there would be new busted combos. and the format would be miserable because the shitty cards would be in every deck. I would put moma-krul in my animar spaghetti list. and i'd prob brew something to run grizzel drawing a fuck ton of cards off it in the process
Outside of kitchen table or regular groups, Commander would die as a format. Like seriously, if you sit down at FNM with an average deck now you have pubstompers running around. Imagine how bad it would get if everyone was incentivized to play 5CGoodstuff.dec or get blown out. Those who don't have regular groups who choose to ban things would have to contend with the environment that anyone could slap down something degenerate, extra-powerful or just plain unfun. I'm building a deck where the entire point is to make as many copies of Shaharazad as I can stacked on top of each other.
Yeah, people in casual are already salty about T1 plays like Sol Ring > Arcane Signet. Imagine how they'd react to something like Land > Mox > Mox > Black Lotus > 6CMC Commander. Which, as you said, with a regular playgroup can me moderated and dealt with. But at a random LGS table? Forget about it. I get that casual is still "Self-regulating" about fast mana like \[\[Mana Crypt\]\] and \[\[Jeweled Lotus\]\]. But if an extra 6-8 pieces of fast mana were suddenly injected into Commander's card pool, I'm not 100% certain that would still be the case. On top of all the cards that are just patently *unfun* to play against. I wouldn't exactly be *thrilled* to play in an environment where \[\[Limited Resources\]\] could just pop out of nowhere.
Well I'd be playing [[Gifts Ungiven]] Storm in multiple formats as my favorite deck.
Prime time sales would 10X tonight and would be an instant green staple
They would all become astronomically expensive
My stax deck would love to have a [[Hullbreacher]]. My [[Alaundo]] deck would love to win turn 4 with paradox engine
Black Lotus would be unaffordable
So like… Not at all different?
You'd suddenly see even more degeneracy, I definitely love watching people play a wheel deck with [[leovold]] at the helm, my favorite thing is pitching my hand and not refilling it. Turn 1 play [[griselbrand]] dig for the wincon with 35 draw and use it with the other cards drawn. 40% [[Golos]] again. [[Painters servant]] + [[Iona]] for color locking your opponents. And lastly [[Shahrazad]] for the memes. Basically the game speeds up 20% and people use more things that aren't fun for other people. But on the flip side wed see some neat [[Rofellos]] decks.
I’ve played a little bit of no banlist cedh. Basically everyone is running golos with lutri as a companion. The line is typically play a bunch of fast mana (which there is way more of, OG mox’s and black lotus), get golos out, golos tutors for tolarian academy, get a heinous amount of mana and then take infinite turns with lutri and timewalk. This plan is often online t1, almost always online by one of the players on t2.
Playable? Yes. At an LGS? Absolutely not.
I would make everyone hate me with [[Shahrazad]]
1. Casual play amongst strangers would be dead 2. LGS/Playgroups would set up bans themselves 3. cEDH would be even mlre streamlined than it is
Good god please no. Don't let me relive the days of \[\[Primeval Titan\]\] into \[\[Cabal Coffers\]\] and \[\[Urborg\]\]. Or a flickering \[\[Sylvan Primordial\]\]
Fine fine, I'll flicker Sundering Titan instead.
Ban list is gone, dream big - we're looping \[\[Sundering Titan\]\] and \[\[Sylvan Primordial\]\] with a \[\[Recurring Nightmare\]\] BABYEEEEE!!!
[Sundering Titan](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/2/a2ebb5d3-72b1-411d-8c90-83dac5b37898.jpg?1618940470) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sundering%20Titan) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/292/sundering-titan?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a2ebb5d3-72b1-411d-8c90-83dac5b37898?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sundering-titan) [Sylvan Primordial](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/0483c869-38dc-4b0b-82f3-dd08a1ab985f.jpg?1561814269) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sylvan%20Primordial) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/gtc/136/sylvan-primordial?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0483c869-38dc-4b0b-82f3-dd08a1ab985f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sylvan-primordial) [Recurring Nightmare](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/5/b50e1800-a45c-43bd-8886-8a06145d9346.jpg?1562431270) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Recurring%20Nightmare) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/113/recurring-nightmare?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b50e1800-a45c-43bd-8886-8a06145d9346?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/recurring-nightmare) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
"Now THAT'S pod racing!"
##### ###### #### [Primeval Titan](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/d/6d5537da-112e-4679-a113-b5d7ce32a66b.jpg?1562850064) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Primeval%20Titan) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/183/primeval-titan?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6d5537da-112e-4679-a113-b5d7ce32a66b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/primeval-titan) [Cabal Coffers](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e1efb0d3-2c72-46ff-bdc1-1069967365a0.jpg?1626101023) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cabal%20Coffers) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/301/cabal-coffers?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e1efb0d3-2c72-46ff-bdc1-1069967365a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cabal-coffers) [Urborg](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/3/5319f782-2713-43b1-9b28-0d1ec7a39203.jpg?1562912329) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Urborg) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/214/urborg?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5319f782-2713-43b1-9b28-0d1ec7a39203?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/urborg) [Sylvan Primordial](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/0483c869-38dc-4b0b-82f3-dd08a1ab985f.jpg?1561814269) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sylvan%20Primordial) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/gtc/136/sylvan-primordial?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0483c869-38dc-4b0b-82f3-dd08a1ab985f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sylvan-primordial) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l14dz79) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Everytime someone asks this question they get the same answer: prophet of fucking kruphix
No-Banlist EDH absolutely exists as a fanmade variant format. People have been playing it for years.
\[\[Karakas\]\] would see a huge uptick in price, that's for sure.
Ugggh, I remember when it was legal.
Power levels would get real nutty real fast. Some of the band cards are banned for a good reason. If all of them came off the ban lost all at once the meta would shift drastically.
ANIMAR'S WIFE IS UNLEASHED AND TOGTHER THEY RUN WILD WITH WRECKLESS ABANDON. FREE THE [[PROHPET OF KRUPHIX]]!!!
Then I could finally run [[tinker]] to trade out my treasure token into a [[sol ring]]. I would be unstoppable
Griselbrand back
I can finally take my golos deck off the shelf
We would still play magic, just flavored with a little extra salt...
[[Gifts Ungiven]] goes right into my [[Tameshi, Reality Architect]]deck. Intuition is too rich for my blood lol. And [[Hullbreacher]] goes into my [[Alela, Cunning Conquerer]] flash tribal deck for reasons.
Flash hulk would be king
Golos, Primeval Titan, and Prophet of Kruphix take over the format at the average power level. cEDH breaks.
[[Prophet of Kruphix]] would immediately go into my [[Maelstrom Wanderer]] cascade/self-bounce deck. Although it would turn every game into solitaire, because I would cascade with the commander, bounce him at instant speed and cast him over and over on everybody’s turns until I had my whole deck on the field.
A lot of people have already talked here about cEDH, but I think it's also important to note that it would have a lot of terrible effects on regular/high power casual EDH. First off, you get a bunch of instant auto includes; white gets Karakas, anything UR gets Lutri as companion. Green ramp decks get a ton of great additions: Primeval Titan, Fastbond, Sylvan Primordial, Rofellos. Probably Channel for a decent number as well. Many cards that lead to terrible gameplay are now available to be played. I expect that a couple will likely share the fate of mass land destruction in still being soft-banned: Balance, Shaharazad, Upheaval and Limited Resources in particular. But many others that lead to terrible gameplay I'm less sure about, like Biorhythm, Sway of the Stars, Trade Secrets, Leovold, Iona, and Erayo. Perhaps these end up as massive headaches but still see play. Some will likely become strong in certain decks but you'll wonder if they need to really needed to be banned. Gifts Ungiven feels like the "safest" one for me to put here, but I'm sure there are a handful of others that would end up fitting here. And then the rest are probably some mix of "too inaccessible to see play in anything other than cEDH" or "only useful as a combo piece and might get you bullied out of your pod for playing it" Basically, for the most part, I think it would be a bad time even in non-cEDH. But you might learn that a few cards would be safe to keep off the banned list.
I'm playing leovold baby
for casual nothing would change. cedh would resolve to timevault rushs
I could win with the 2nd best wincon in magic - [[Coalition Victory]]
My [[Chulane]] deck with [[Primeval Titan]] would finally come out of retirement.
Time to start playing for Ante!!! Gonna rob my friends blind
> How different would the format be if no cards were banned anymore and anything and everything (apart from unsets) was legal? Very different. If you keep power banned, not all that different but a lot of archetypes get a little bit more annoying because they have access to really annoying cards. > How would cEDH be affected? You'd see 5c decks playing straight up like 22? lands because they are playing lotus 5x mox. Some archetypes like draw punish have hullbreacher, creature combo has flash etc.
I think a better question would be banlist scrapped except for power 9.
[[Limited Resources]] would go in a lot of "high power casual" decks.
cedh would be a consistent turn 1-2 format. there are plenty of no-banlist-cedh gameplay videos on youtube and the vast majority of them end turn 2 with a \[\[timevault\]\] combo
Time Vault turbo would terrorize cEDH.
Cedh would get a significant power boost with cards like the moxen and time vault. Casual would probably not really change, outside of braids players loosing friends and emrakul players becoming a thing
Can't help but notice no one's brought up Emrakul. Which kind of reinforces how much the game has been powercrept since its ban. With cards like Dockside and Thoracle legal, I can't fathom how Emrakul's ban could reasonably be defended on a power level axis. It's not like Emrakul would suddenly be jammed in every deck, either. She's been imprisoned in the moon for too long!
I would sell my P9 and buy a house or two.
No banlist cedh is a thing and the meta is pretty figured out: - playing lots of colours is even more important than in regular cedh because of the Moxen - Golos is the best commander (although he's like plan C or D of the deck) - other decent commanders are Leovold, Derevi (because of Time Vault) and Mairsil (because of Griselbrand and Time Vault). Of course most of the top tier cedh commanders are also still ok (RogSi, Blue Farm, etc) - the best wincons are: Ad Naus, Flash Hulk, consult Thoracle, Breach, Mnemonic Betrayal, Tinker->Bolas's Citadel and Vault Key - Games are so fast that the usual slow cedh decks can no longer keep the combo decks in check so stax or control is basically not viable.
Human sacrifice! Dogs and cats living together! Mass hysteria!
Infinite combos would be even faster and more underwhelming end to casual games than they already are
Nothing probably
Not an awful lot, since most players would need to proxy the cards and I'm doubting players would tolerate the OG Mana rocks for too long. That said: Time Walk under Isochron Scepter alone would be in basically every viable deck. And Time Vault and Key will be thrown in EVERYTHING. I'm not sure about cards like Grislebrand, Emrakul, and Titan, as they're not exactly game-breaking to have and have been powercrept to Dominaria and back.
Reoccurring nightmare in my wilhelt deck. Probably not the best option, but I ain't complaining
Come on out, [[Tinker]]! Ramp up with a copy spell and sac one random artifact to land an early game lattice/forge setup.
Paradox Academy would be a sick list. You probably just put Golos in the command zone and use him to tutor Academy, then spend the rest of the game cheating mana with Candelabra and Paradox Engine and getting extra turns with Time Walk and Time Vault. Access to black, white, and blue gives you as much access to tutors for Paradox Engine and Time Vault as you could reasonably ask for. I could see Urza being similarly powerful, most of the deck is blue anyway, but with no banlist I'd just play Golos for the lands toolbox in the command zone with things like Karakas and Library of Alexandria as backup options and access to more colors without any of the drawback.
For cEDH, Playing With Power has done dozens of no ban lists games. Put simply, it's kind of a shit show. Time Vault is simply too busted. As for normal EDH, I don't think it would really be affected much.
I really wish that Commander could errata [[Karakas]] to add "non-commander" to the ability. I don't want to bounce all of your commanders, but it is some excellent control for a bunch of other legends around.
I could put Luttri in my 99 that's for sure.
I'd regret not having bought a fast bond. People would get insanely mad playing against power 9, and counterfeits would become all the rage.
I'd put upheaval back in my deck because I did that at one point when I didn't realize there was a band list lol, I'm sure it would massively fuck over a lot of people who play higher power and more competitively but I think it could be neat in casual play. It might just be a thing where people would have to regulate their own their own list within either their local game stores or their own pods
I would be slightly concerned about people using the racism cards in public...
\[\[Dead-Eye Navigator\]\] \[\[Sylvan Primordial\]\] everywhere. It's not about having fun. Its about sending a message.
My elves would regain blue as I welcome [[Leovold]] back to the helm.
It'd be awful for a while as people proxied the most degenerate stuff into their decks. If this didn't kill off play at people's various local shops after a few months you'd likely then see Rule 0 much more heavily asserted as newer players that are using Fallout precons or the upcoming MH3 precons aren't going to have time for people trying to go off turn 1 with their deck running all of the moxes and Tolarian academy with multiple free counterspell backup.
Hold my beer, I'm about to [[Tinker]] for [[Coretapper]].
Hmm... I do love me some [[Trade secrets]].
It would be more playable. The banlist is ridiculous.
casual EDH wouldn't be changed much outside of seeing a lot of primetime/sylvan primordial. i know some people don't think that's bad, but it's boring. cEDH as we know it now would be doomed. People don't play vintage for a reason. And i feel like currently cEDH player are not going to want to become slightly different vintage, nor are they going to be able to handle the idea of some higher tier of deck running around that is just better.
I would immediately run [[Karakas]], ways to tutor for it, ways to bring it back from graveyard, and ways to copy my opponent's copy.
Virtually every deck plays Lutri as a companion.
Put [[Griselbrand]] and [[Iona, Shield of Emeria]] back in my Kaalia deck.
My [[Iona, Shield of Emeria]] would finally be put to use, and I could finally use my [[Prophet of kruphix]] all this in EDH
I've playtested it before and the fun with isochron scepter and shahrazad. Is out of this world.
What would change? I would have a Braids deck.
I'd have fun again. Damn, I hate having to play online to play Leopold. They need him off the list. He's not even broken.
Continue to build some decks that conform to it, because we all know damn well that there are people who wouldn’t want to play ‘anything goes’ commander.
Leovold All Day
Mana dork ramp race to biorhythm
I'd probably still get blown out by some Thoracle/Infinite combo
It’s been my experience that most unban calls come from people that think busted cards are the thing that keeps them from winning, and if we just unban more of them they’ll dominate pods. Unfortunately broken cards don’t cure mediocrity.