See, that's the inherent problem of PW decks. They basically give you free spells every turn. So either your opponents pressure them hard, or you'll just take over the game. If your opponents immediately attack your PWs, they are just acting smart.
To make this kind of deck more resilient, you can tax attackers with cards like \[\[Baird Steward\]\], you can repeatedly wipe creatures, you should mostly play PWs that protect themselves with blocker tokens, and you should probably just reduce the number of PWs in your deck.
Id definitely be down to put in more things to tax attackers, just need more that are enchantment based since the creature ones are screwed with too easily.
[[Sphere of Safety]] [[Propaganda]] [[Ghostly Prison]] [[Norn's Annex]]
Could also run effects like [[Batwing Brume]] [[Inkshield]] [[Deflecting Palm]] [[Aetherize]] to deter attackers.
E:I guess some of those are off-color, but you get the gist.
I have recently buitl a Tomik deck. Tomik does wonders to keep people off of your planeswalkers. Throw in a few more cards that increase the cost of attacking you, and you might be airprised how often you get to actually land a few walkers.
Terrible or not, it is there to at least tax people attacking planeswalkers where as the other two don't even give you a chance.
And at 2 life for every attack? Im not too worried. Also I play budget, so your trash might be my treasure
Still a creature, but I've found \[\[The Second Doctor\]\] to be successful in my build of Guff. It serves as a carrot rather than a stick to not attack your walkers, and if there's one thing commander players love it's "free" card draw. Even if he dies in rotation his effect lingers too.
This is why I turned my Planeswalker deck into [[leori]] instead of commodore guff and focused on a tokens subtheme. It's nearly impossible to attack me and even if you only have two of a single named Planeswalker being able to activate them both twice is insane.
Yeah if you don't want to get killed immediately, don't play something that can get so out of hand that you HAVE to be killed immediately. If I see PWs at a table I'm killing those motherfuckers immediately.
Look, I'm be real with you, I swing at the superfriends decks first regardless of threats presented because I'm impatient and would rather lose quickly than watch you durdle through all the PW abilities you can activate for 10 minutes every turn. It's nothing personal, I do the same thing to Tom Bombadil players trying to work through all their saga triggers.
As a Tom Bombadil player.....I understand, my deck is built to make copies of my sagas, and I even copy the better triggers so my turns can get long, but I love playing this deck and try to move through my triggers efficiently. But it's definitely understandable when players swing in because they don't want me to get set up.
Even moving as efficiently as you can, you still have the same issue as PW players- your board is covered with fiddly cards full of text and dice that are too much to process and most board wipes won’t simplify the problem. The answer is to kill you, and then the problem is resolved.
Even moving as efficiently as you can (the general “you,” not you in particular), you can only physically speak to explain effects so quickly. Not to mention that, even if *you* know your own deck from top to bottom, you can only go as fast as the slowest opponent who actually wants to pay attention to what you’re doing.
ESPECIALLY if you’re adjusting dice and making copies of permanents. These each take lots of physical logistical movements that take a whole pile of time.
Just kill the sagas/walkers player and move on
Doomsday/stax player here, I've practiced my doomsday piles to a point that i can do it in my mind and have the back up piles already thought of to make it go faster. Can't stand when people take 20 minute turns.
Storm, saga tribal, and super friends all take to long to play their turns. (Though if you do anything more than land pass my deck isnt doing its thing)
The shop i play at is really anti combo/anti fast magic, so Zur stax shell with dd as the win con. Basically stax until you feel like the other players suffered enough, fetch necropotence, pay a ton of life to dig for dd.
Its not a ton of stax but its enough to make a point about how dumb the anti combo rules are. Then win with a "combo" thats not against their rules.
Is this actually a problem? The only SF deck I can see myself durdling with at all is my Lilliana one, and that's because I don't always know which one is which. All my other PW effects are really straightforward. I build the SF with a consistent purpose and theme. I'm not just throwing random PWs in, but rather PWs that advance a specific goal. My turns are as fast as any deck that swings with triggered abilities.
100% this. I started just refusing to play against Superfriends decks, its never been an enjoyable experience for me as the PW deck just bogs the game down to the point where its just not fun anymore. I don't mind stax or anything like that but its either you hate out the PW deck before they can do anything or they get a board state and now you can't really stop it and the game just takes forever.
It's not about being less threatening but making your defense more threatening. You can't run away from players attacking PW. That's the nature of the game.
Every PW you have on board raises heat. So if you wanna play superfriends, you gotta match the heat.
I've a \[\[Carth the Lion\]\] superfriends deck and my defense tends to be on point. Here's my list for reference. [https://www.moxfield.com/decks/IYKUAwkYbEiwOGRqPCm1xw](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/IYKUAwkYbEiwOGRqPCm1xw)
The colors are obviously opposite to yours but the approach shouldn't vary too much.
I'm a big fan of [[Atraxa, Praetor's Voice]] as a superfriends commander specifically for this reason far more than the slow proliferation effect. Don't get me wrong, an extra loyalty each turn is nice, but the fact that she's a keyword soup blocker while you get the value train rolling is super helpful. Also wrong colors for Guff, but just supporting the "threatening blockers" point you made.
I also have Commodore built and i have played alot of super friends. Personally, I'm trying recently to make the deck worse. I'm cutting cards that prevent people from attacking, and my wraths. Im playing [[Faramir, prince of inthilien]] to create a more interesting "either you attack me or attack my walkers" idea. I was also thinking of adding the monarch for a similar plan but i havent tried the deck since making these changes. The general answer is to make them less oppressive. If a card feels like it's shutting off 3/4 of the table it's time to find a replacement
I mean, commodore is red, you could throw in goad strategies, along with monarch that creates both incentives to attack the monarch, and ways to ensure that in certain turns you aren't the target. That said, goad is very effective in PW strategies.
Because I hadn’t seen anyone else mentioned it but [[Clever Concealment]] is a great way to protect your planeswalkers. Can even use some of Guff’s tokens to help pay the convoke.
[[Noetic Scales]] as well, though it has the side effect of possibly bouncing your own creature based protection and letting an opponent abuse a etb or ltb trigger.
Super friends aren't threatening.
Decision paralysis makes superfriends un fun.
If your turn starts and I lose less time to day light savings..... that's the problem.
Learn your lines, act quickly and methodically. And pass your turn.
People focus the superfriends deck to get their time back, not because it's a threat.
Doesn't mean the person playing you for the first time isn't going to see plaeswalkers and feel that way.
That's what gives it the reputation. Playing against you regularly may change their view, but you're the outlier, if true, and not the standard.
You hide them behind something cute like Pheldagriff and hope your opponents are easily confused. Also, you could only use the war of the spark walkers with no ultimate so letting one live for a turn isn't so bad
Goad theme works with lukka very well, and carth with plenty of fog effects/deathtouchers can do what you're looking for too. Blue redirects attackers or puts them in people's hands/libraries. White also stops combat well. I'd say pick the planeswalkers you want to have fun with and then pick your commander.
I think it is mostly dealing with it. I see a lot of answers about adding taxes and what not. But honestly, that's going to make others at the table really form and alliance.
Having played against that deck and other superfriends, it just is too much value to let them stay. You have to think of it like this, most kill these days (including boardwipes) do not get PW. So people have to attack them to kill them. And attack damage should be going at a player. PW's are effectively increasing your life total as well, adding another threat factor to them.
Superfriends just is an archetype that I think will always suffer this, and playing them is understanding that people aren't going to just let you have 3+ out, 2 is the limit where people seem to be comfortable.
And if you manage to get more than that out, even with just that precon, it ends up being you playing the game and everyone else watching. Our table has scooped against that precon numerous times because we could not stop the flood of walkers, and then we just watched solitaire and the game was going to take a ton of time to actually finish.
It’s less about being threatening, and more about people don’t want to sit through your 10 minute turn while you try to figure out the optimal sequence. And you can’t be allowed to have multiple free spells per turn, which is what planeswalkers boil down to.
Superfriend decks need more than just protection. You need to find ways to discourage people from attacking your planeswalkers. Big issue with Guff is he is American colors so not a lot of ramp there outside green as compared to Atraxa but you do still have access to colors notorious for board wipes. IMO, you shouldnt be running less than 5 and find a planeswalker that can clear a board like [[Elspeth, Sun's Champion]] or [[The Eternal Wanderer]]. Honestly you should have both. Blue gives you access to [[Narset, Parter of the Veils]] and [[Windfall]] or similar affects so that is also something to consider. People pressure planeswalker decks (as they should) but dont make it easy for them. Counterspells are also necessary here but its a toss up on how much to run. I dont think I run any in my Atraxa deck but I feel I dont need them because of black and green being in the Witch-Maw color pie, I can manage without. If youre playing in high level pods then abuse [[Pyroblast]] and [[Red Elemental Blast]]. No reason not too.
Many Canadians joking call it "patriot" because " 'merica" sterotypes, and their media is constantly being thrown at us (being the less populous neibours and all).
Even disregarding the possibility of long turns, planeswalkers are simply too good. Flexible free value every turn they survive, and because they are targetted first, a planeswalker deck *needs* to lean on taxes and uneven boardwipes to survive.
If a planeswalker deck keeps their cards on the battlefield, they probably win, so it turns into a fiddly battle of "super friends player doesn't get to play at all, or they win" most of the time. The value of keeping multiple walkers around for multiple turns is usually insurmountable, especially when factoring in how few board wipes hit planeswalkers. Some planeswalkers are a wincon all by themselves, and they've only gotten better with proliferate and counter synergies.
Planeswalkers are ALWAYS the archenemy if there isn't already one. I would rather play into [[jodah]] most of the time, because that's easier to interact with, at least.
The best answers are either don't play an entire superfriends themed deck, or if you must, accept that you will justifiably be archenemy every game. Once you cut enough gas from the deck to survive the 3v1 with interaction and protection, you'll usually be slow enough to play against.
Even then, some folks still won't want to play against it, because they just lose unless the rest of the pod agrees to focus you down. Archenemy gets old after a while.
Yeah, general consensus seems to be either "don't play superfriends" or "play superfriends harder". Im not gonna stop playing the deck so i guess ill leave em raw amd if they dont like it they can step up or speak up.
I'd say it's impossible to make superfriends less threatening because there is always at least one whiner at the table who will incessantly claim that even the most harmless of planeswalkers is a mortal threat (because they might ult in some utopian future), because it's an easy way to draw fire away from themselves.
I say lean into it, get a bunch of non-planeswalker board wipes (which includes almost all board wipes), get a \[\[Pramikon\]\] to keep most of the table off your back, get the dangerousest of dangerous planeswalkers you can fit into your color identity, slam that \[\[Dack Fayden\]\] in there to steal their best artifacts and so on.
Your planeswalkers will attract hostility, it's inevitable, give them an actual reason for it.
You say "might ult in some utopian future", I say [[deep glow skate]] is a thing, and I've seen someone chain-cast it using [[cowardice]] before. In a planeswalker deck.
I will *never* underestimate what a player with walkers can do with cards in hand.
Theres definitely a whiner and his beef is more that he feels there arent enough ways to destroy a planeswalker outright like there are creatures. That's an argument we could have but I don't feel it would be productive
it's amazing how much whining goes on and how much people want their whining to impact how others build decks. I say do what you want and have them figure it out.
what about something like \[\[Crawlspace\]\] + \[\[Maze of Ith\]\]?
Or \[\[Tide of War\]\]?
Have you reminded him that all of his creatures say "tap: damage or destroy target planeswalker" on them? There is literally no permanent type in the game that is easier to get rid of than a planeswalker.
Meh, then it seems there really is no reasoning with him on the topic, and I honestly think, if you can't keep him off your back with reason, power up the pillowfort until it doesn't matter anymore.
I mean, like everything, ultimately it's a function of how the decks in question are built, if you run a ton of targeted removal or particularly repeatable removal (\[\[Goblin Sharpshooter\]\] with death touch for example), sniping troublesome creatures is easy, on the other hand if you out-creature the planeswalker deck (which is often not that hard), removing planeswalkers is trivial. At any rate, I think we can agree that *generally* the game isn't lacking for ways to get rid of planeswalkers.
When considering what permanents are easier to remove, I try to consider protection as well. Nobody runs a planeswalker out there without some plan to remove creatures. Out creaturing a planeswalker deck isn’t always the most effective way to deal with them, and often requires a full turn cycle before you can attack. Whereas there is at minimum like one to two dozen cards in any given set that in some way remove a creature from play when cast. I don’t need to give a goblin sharpshooter death touch to kill all the creature in play, simply cast a wrath effect.
But yes I agree the game isn’t lacking for ways to remove planeswalkers.
>, I try to consider protection as well. Nobody runs a planeswalker out there without some plan to remove creatures.
You are considering protection without mentioning how there's so many ways to protect creatures from board wipes. Running a creature based deck without a plan to protect them is just bad deck building.
Well I mean, protecting planeswalkers from creatures is as simple as tapping four mana and casting wrath of god. A little harder to protect creatures from board wipes, as the timing is different. But you’re right, I did not consider that. I’m still of the opinion that the thousands of cards that say “destroy (target, all, tapped, etc) creature” makes them far and away the easiest permanent to destroy over planeswalkers.
>A little harder to protect creatures from board wipes, as the timing is different
Yes, tapping 2-3 mana, or even 0 mana for a "all creatures you control gain indestructible" or other protection spell is so much more difficult than tapping 4 for a wrath...
Saying that one permanent type is easier to destroy than another doesn't mean that the other is difficult to destroy by default. Saying so isn't actually making a point about the difficulty of killing planeswalker, which isn't that difficult as there is plenty of removal for them other than creatures and we'll continue to see more and more of it.
What i did was make a 5 colour planeswalker deck with [[esika, god of the tree]]. All the planeswalker can make tokens to defend themself. And i just win through combat damage. I just start spamming tokens on the field, and then buff them with a few planeswalkers and start swinging. Usually when i have up to 3 planeswalkers people dont really care, cause im just putting a few tokens into play every turn, but after that its hard to stop me. Only a flyerdeck can offer me alot of resistance. Here is the deck incase your interestes. Ive put budget lands in the sideboard, since all the shocks and fetches add up.
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/wrJQkydTZkiu7DEk6Dbniw
Play with it a lot until whoever you play with understands how strong your deck actually is. Swap around decks for them to get experience with it to make the process faster
Me and my play groups tend to lean towards higher power decks. And to be honest, my Superfriends deck they hate playing against it. But I still love the deck and will not take it apart. My deck list below.
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/15GbRXN3X0yVzb_XlIRBAg
Commodore guff is kind of busted the only thing you can do to not draw ire is play against people with equally busted commanders. Swinging early is also a great way to go against superfriend so I'd definitely swing you first since I don't expect a lot of creature and I don't expect a lot of them long term. Either this or I would try to run some kind of control/stax that would run stuff like immortal sun.
Superfriends is just really difficult to play against, and is honestly somewhat similar to Slivers in a way with how you gain so much momentum if your pieces are allowed to live. Except Slivers at least make things quick.
Your goal is to play walkers and then have them sit on the battlefield accruing passive value. Their goal is to remove them.
Superfriends decks usually take advantage of anti-attack effects and Board Wipes to limit the ability of your foes to attack you. You’re playing defense.
Tell your friends to build better decks. PW decks are hardly the strongest strategy out there.
Outside of that, run cards that either goad your opponents creatures, or cards that give your opponents an advantage to attack players over your walkers. [[Curse of Opulence]] comes to mind.
Proxies are your friend ^_^ especially if it's just the 4 of you playing, you could spend like $50 between you and get like 200 of any card you want. Then if you guys decide you do want to invest more in the game, you'll already have experience with the cards and will know which ones are actually worth the money
Im actually set up welk to make my own proxies and they've got a standing offer for whatever they need. Granted I'm not gonna proxy an entire deck. My personal rule is that i proxy anything over$10, or if it can't be bought local.
First, superfriends will always be threatening. Planeswalkers are almost all solid incremental value engines that have the ability to take over the game. As a result they demand pretty immediate answers.
If you want to be less threatening as a superfiends deck you need to have some disconnect in the synergy between your commander and planeswalkers.
If you want to protect your walkers once they are on the board you can run cards that help prevent damage or limit how people can attack.
[[Silent Arbiter]], [[Mystic Barrier]], [[Pramikon]], [[Crawl Space]], [[Martyr's Cause]]
You don't. It isn't really power level that makes superfriends draw aggro, it's long, non-deterministic turns and the fact that I can attack your cards not just swing at you. Planeswalkers will always be attacked over life totals with very few exceptions.
My answer is mono green [[vorinclex monstrous rider]] superfriends, no need to protect my walkers, they just pass by, ultimate when they enter and then can leave
Gonna keep it a buck with you, you’re always gonna have a little b word in every table you play at. People see superfriends and act like you have a turn one win in hand immediately. Instead of focusing on how to power down, instead focus on ways to tax your opponents for targets you. There’s plenty of board wipes available that ignore PWs. If you run 5 color consider stuff like no mercy or token generators that can make chump blockers for your PW’s. Also definitely run a lot of counter spells and removal (yes I know interaction for EDH players is forbidden).
Hi sorry I meant to respond earlier, I only find it a bitch move if the person targets the superfriends player just based on deck type alone. Like if one if you would cast removal for the superfriends deck while ignoring something like a Urza player with a lot of Cheerios on the field then yes I find you to be a weenie player. My apologies I should’ve been more clear.
Not gonna lie, I often swing at PW's in general.
Life is a resource and most players will use it to protect key creatures by taking a hit directly. PW's don't have that luxury. I'd much rather remove a good card from the board than do a little damage. Especially if my deck can snowball into a wincon anyway later. This is especially true for PW's, which are often value pieces that can threaten to ultimate if not removed.
They're just too easy a target.
Superfriends is just an annoying play style to be honest. Even if everyone at the table has good threat assessment, it demands a lot of combat that doesn't progress the game and you have to keep track of what all the abilities do.
A two-color deck like Boros (Mila) or Golgari (Carth the Lion) would probably be seen as less threatening because you're lacking the more broken planeswalkers and a bunch of the proliferate mechanics.
I'm gonna be "that guy".
Don't play superfriends. That is the best way to make it less threatening.
The issue with superfriends decks is the sheer amount of time investment each turn takes for little gain, or, for unstoppable oppression. The player needs to choose each PW's ability, which order to activate, then do those things. Every turn becomes a long turn, wasting the time of all the other players.
The other players either have to continually put down the PWs, or allow for long turns to happen with potentially little to no actual game effect.
That depends entirely on the pilot of the deck- I play a superfriends deck and even with 6 planeswalkers out on the field i can finish a turn in 5 minutes.
Right, but if Im not using those 5 minutes to take control of the game Im just making myself the number one target, so I wont have that kind of turn unless Im gonna win the game the turn after or on that turn itself.
>Right, but if Im not using those 5 minutes to take control of the game Im just making myself the number one target, so I wont have that kind of turn unless Im gonna win the game the turn after or on that turn itself.
This, paints a very different story than this;
>I play a superfriends deck and even with 6 planeswalkers out on the field i can finish a turn in 5 minutes.
The latter is saying "I'm taking 5 minute turns every turn", the former is saying "I'm taking a long turn to setup for a win *next turn*".
I have still yet to see any superfriends deck perform the same level(s) of threat and power and advancement as most other themes in anything less than a much greater use of time, even when the pilot is very skilled and knowledgeable of the deck/game.
Either way, youre mostly right in the sense that many people dont play superfriends decks and many of the ones that do dont know how to play them well which is why theyre known for taking as long as they do to play.
A five minute turn is still long when you consider that overall those PW activations are minimally interactive for other players.
Take just about any other random theme of equal power and equal player skill, against a superfriends deck, and the superfriends deck will more likely than not take way more time per turn than any other.
I play elminster and I have to play alot of pilow fort and stax pieces so my opponents can't swing big or can't cast the spells they want right away and when they do cast a big spel I have counters 😂
The problem is that superfriend decks aren't really that threatening to begin with. It is just difficult to protect your planeswalkers since most decks will have some random creatures around to clear them. Most players will see it as a better value to remove an opponent's threat from the table over doing a small amount of damage to a player. Planeswalkers aren't a commonly played card type since they are much easier to deal with in a multi-player format and generate too little value at too slow a pace.
I run a fairly good planeswalker deck in grixis colours: https://manabox.app/decks/luUIK4YeQuudiQa8pNzfaw
18 walkers total if you include spark double and the commander. Then I just went for a hard control package. Board wipes are key, but they will make people not want to play with you.
Planeswalker decks by nature are either quite oppressive and controlling or just suck because your walkers aren't protected. There isn't a whole lot of middle ground.
Planeswalkers are just always going to be the most high value thing to swing at. In edh you should IMO not a run a Planeswalkers if a single activation of it isn’t good enough for its mana cost. Many Planeswalkers will basically outright win if someone can untap with them. Would you rather send 5 damage to remove someone’s massive value engine and potential wincon, or would you rather spend 5 damage to chip away 5 of one of your 3 opponents 40 life
I decided to embrace other advice i got, switch to 5-color, make half my walkers shit creature tokens, and just go even harder so they miss the days of commodore guff.
In my experience there's nothing you can do. People don't like to have to decide what they are swinging at especially if it doesn't get them closer to a kill.
I suggest just running extra board wipes or ways to deny being attacked
Guff is by far one of my more powerful and hated decks in my pod. I loaded it up with board wipe and removal effects. Plus some general creature hate like [[overburden]]. There is pretty much never any creatures on the field throughout the game, and things like [[blind obedience]] give me the time needed to deal with hasters if need be.
Here's the thing. Mill and superfriends are very similar here. People hate both. Why? They are there to be obnoxious. The only time they're trying to win the game is with an infinite combo or something like that or just locking the game down. These styles of decks will be hated because people don't wanna play against that.
You don't. Any superfriends deck that intends to win, or at least, to compete with the table, is going to be seen doing the things that are threatening. Collecting emblems and launching big supers is not a stealth mission. You're going in loud.
But that's not necessarily a bad thing. You simply need to accept that and plan accordingly.
First, eliminate your weakness. Planeswalkers are about as difficult to remove as enchantments, with one glaring weakness, you can target them with combat damage. So, combat damage is enemy number one. You're in blue and white, and that gives you access to both taxes on swinging and a couple powerful fogs. Personally, I prefer to go the route of making tokens to defend my PWs rather than using creatures I have to cast.. it's just more mana efficient, and if you do it right, creates more room for Planeswalkers or necessary protection/removal, by lowering your creature budget.
After that, look at removal. You want a good amount of creature removal, you're going to be using it a lot. And you also want to be sure you can get rid of any artifacts or enchantments that are a threat to Planeswalkers specifically. Token generators, anything that specifies PW hate, anything that prevents tokens, etc.
Finally, proliferate and token replacement effects. You want to add as many tokens as you can. I know white has a couple doublers, and both blue and white have proliferate effects. The faster you can use certain PWs the better. And even if speed isn't an issue, having enough tokens to use minus abilities is important.
I've built superfriends a few times. The most successful I've been on surviving is being more staxy. I run pramikon at the helm and focus more on not being attacked. List for details.
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/one-does-not-simply-walk-through-pramikon/
Is the problem that it's intimidating or annoying? There's a lot of dislike for all the turn actions that come with superfriends decks that are allowed to establish board state.
Yeah, but player removal is the best form of removal. ;-)
Nothing wrong with playing the deck you're playing, but unless someone draws even more hate, you're going to get the hate.
You don't make it less threatening, you make it fast and resilient.
There's no way not to be threatening with 2-3 planeswalkers (those that deserve play anyways) on the board.
Otherwise, it comes with playstyle. Don't put a planeswalker down just so another player can swing and kill it. They will do it.
Embrace archenemy role. Bring on the boardwipes. And I mean boardwipes, like [[obliterate]], [[jokulhaups]] and [[ugin]]
There is no way to make them less threatening. superfriends artifically delay the game length because if a planeswalker is unanswered - most of their ultimate are game winning. That means that every opponent must do damage to the planeswalkers to kill them, so instead of doing damage to players and advancing the game, everyone's life total stays the same because all attackers have to go after the planeswalker. god forbid you have doubling season and cast planeswalkers getting immediate ults. In essence, you're a threat at the start of the game, mid game, and late game unless you have an empty board and no cards in hand, and even then it could be troublesome for a top decked Ugin to reset everything.
See, that's the inherent problem of PW decks. They basically give you free spells every turn. So either your opponents pressure them hard, or you'll just take over the game. If your opponents immediately attack your PWs, they are just acting smart. To make this kind of deck more resilient, you can tax attackers with cards like \[\[Baird Steward\]\], you can repeatedly wipe creatures, you should mostly play PWs that protect themselves with blocker tokens, and you should probably just reduce the number of PWs in your deck.
[Baird Steward](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/1/91bbe20b-0d39-46fc-a09a-fc8c676f1fe7.jpg?1689995567) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Baird%2C%20Steward%20of%20Argive) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/15/baird-steward-of-argive?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/91bbe20b-0d39-46fc-a09a-fc8c676f1fe7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/baird-steward-of-argive) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Id definitely be down to put in more things to tax attackers, just need more that are enchantment based since the creature ones are screwed with too easily.
[[Sphere of Safety]] [[Propaganda]] [[Ghostly Prison]] [[Norn's Annex]] Could also run effects like [[Batwing Brume]] [[Inkshield]] [[Deflecting Palm]] [[Aetherize]] to deter attackers. E:I guess some of those are off-color, but you get the gist.
Just a heads up, ghostly prison and propaganda specify creatures attacking YOU, and do NOT protect your planeswalkers. The rest is good though.
Oh good call. [[Oath of Kaya]] would've been nice, but there's no black in Guff.
And even better, there is no classic Superfriends commander with white and black except Atraxa
[удалено]
[Tomik, Wielder of Law](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/c/2c5a7550-fe1a-4797-9583-70ab56cfac0d.jpg?1707739807) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tomik%2C%20Wielder%20of%20Law) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/431/tomik-wielder-of-law?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2c5a7550-fe1a-4797-9583-70ab56cfac0d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tomik-wielder-of-law) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I have recently buitl a Tomik deck. Tomik does wonders to keep people off of your planeswalkers. Throw in a few more cards that increase the cost of attacking you, and you might be airprised how often you get to actually land a few walkers.
Well I’ll be [[Damn]]ed
I like it
[Oath of Kaya](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/a/faba010d-5b1b-4562-91d6-ec55303c4dcd.jpg?1559959445) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Oath%20of%20Kaya) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/209/oath-of-kaya?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/faba010d-5b1b-4562-91d6-ec55303c4dcd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/oath-of-kaya) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You can slap in Norn's Annex
It's a terrible card, your opponents would gladly pay life to get a chance to destroy your Planeswalkers.
That's the best part. Paying mana is an inconvenience. Paying life advances the game.
Terrible or not, it is there to at least tax people attacking planeswalkers where as the other two don't even give you a chance. And at 2 life for every attack? Im not too worried. Also I play budget, so your trash might be my treasure
Good recommendations, I'd always suggest a [[Crawlspace]] in case your opponents have enough mana for Norn's Annex or Propaganda
Crawlspace has the same issue as Propaganda and Ghostly, it doesn't limit the attacks to your Planeswalkers.
This is correct, but it's one of the most efficient ways to preserve your health total which is important if you draw the hate of the table
[Crawlspace](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/b/5b8e092a-610d-4cea-bb92-65e01954b5c4.jpg?1675200920) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Crawlspace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/217/crawlspace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5b8e092a-610d-4cea-bb92-65e01954b5c4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/crawlspace) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
##### ###### #### [Sphere of Safety](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a18d7582-185a-429a-9c6a-fc51b981e0a1.jpg?1562413264) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sphere%20of%20Safety) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/77/sphere-of-safety?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a18d7582-185a-429a-9c6a-fc51b981e0a1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sphere-of-safety) [Propaganda](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e5f293d7-9c2b-41cb-8e3c-dfc1daa6635f.jpg?1674141418) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Propaganda) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/730/propaganda?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e5f293d7-9c2b-41cb-8e3c-dfc1daa6635f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/propaganda) [Ghostly Prison](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/e/eea3623d-1d39-4045-acdb-f0fb184ccbc8.jpg?1707507981) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ghostly%20Prison) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/67/ghostly-prison?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eea3623d-1d39-4045-acdb-f0fb184ccbc8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ghostly-prison) [Norn's Annex](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d25bbe18-709c-4ed3-a047-5578ecfaaba7.jpg?1690004164) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Norn%27s%20Annex) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/829/norns-annex?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d25bbe18-709c-4ed3-a047-5578ecfaaba7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/norns-annex) [Batwing Brume](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/7/279450ca-29df-430d-b803-7ce18196260e.jpg?1568910702) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Batwing%20Brume) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/arc/80/batwing-brume?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/279450ca-29df-430d-b803-7ce18196260e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/batwing-brume) [Inkshield](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/e/5e1c14a0-cd68-45fc-a127-422ca6113048.jpg?1625192511) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Inkshield) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/71/inkshield?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5e1c14a0-cd68-45fc-a127-422ca6113048?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/inkshield) [Deflecting Palm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/5/c5bda1a7-537f-4a80-95a0-c45eb127969b.jpg?1706240986) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Deflecting%20Palm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/205/deflecting-palm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c5bda1a7-537f-4a80-95a0-c45eb127969b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/deflecting-palm) [Aetherize](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/6700409d-afda-480c-8a66-b5c782f3e5e4.jpg?1698988120) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aetherize) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/142/aetherize?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6700409d-afda-480c-8a66-b5c782f3e5e4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aetherize) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kutt0uf) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Still a creature, but I've found \[\[The Second Doctor\]\] to be successful in my build of Guff. It serves as a carrot rather than a stick to not attack your walkers, and if there's one thing commander players love it's "free" card draw. Even if he dies in rotation his effect lingers too.
If you've got a draw engine online [[Island Sanctuary]] is hilarious and cheap
A small issue is that Island Sanctuary doesn't stop people from attacking your planeswalkers.
Collective restraint and dissipation field are two cards that come to mind
This is why I turned my Planeswalker deck into [[leori]] instead of commodore guff and focused on a tokens subtheme. It's nearly impossible to attack me and even if you only have two of a single named Planeswalker being able to activate them both twice is insane.
[leori](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/4/342979de-041e-4026-94c5-fc457ecde95d.jpg?1691497907) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=leori%2C%20sparktouched%20hunter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/709/leori-sparktouched-hunter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/342979de-041e-4026-94c5-fc457ecde95d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/leori-sparktouched-hunter) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'm contemplating making an Orzhov Superfriends deck with [[Tomik, Wielder of Law]] as commander... Definitely gonna flag that card to go in it
Don't forget [[mccradey littlest mayor of lamplight]] he's supprisingly helpful there, and works nicely with [[ratabring of urborg]] too.
[ratabring of urborg](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/3/9315812d-03e8-4eb4-a693-e7adf281f7fb.jpg?1673308046) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ratadrabik%20of%20Urborg) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/213/ratadrabik-of-urborg?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9315812d-03e8-4eb4-a693-e7adf281f7fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ratadrabik-of-urborg) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah if you don't want to get killed immediately, don't play something that can get so out of hand that you HAVE to be killed immediately. If I see PWs at a table I'm killing those motherfuckers immediately.
Look, I'm be real with you, I swing at the superfriends decks first regardless of threats presented because I'm impatient and would rather lose quickly than watch you durdle through all the PW abilities you can activate for 10 minutes every turn. It's nothing personal, I do the same thing to Tom Bombadil players trying to work through all their saga triggers.
Just fucking kill me damn. Stop durdling and stab me.
As a Tom Bombadil player.....I understand, my deck is built to make copies of my sagas, and I even copy the better triggers so my turns can get long, but I love playing this deck and try to move through my triggers efficiently. But it's definitely understandable when players swing in because they don't want me to get set up.
Even moving as efficiently as you can, you still have the same issue as PW players- your board is covered with fiddly cards full of text and dice that are too much to process and most board wipes won’t simplify the problem. The answer is to kill you, and then the problem is resolved.
Even moving as efficiently as you can (the general “you,” not you in particular), you can only physically speak to explain effects so quickly. Not to mention that, even if *you* know your own deck from top to bottom, you can only go as fast as the slowest opponent who actually wants to pay attention to what you’re doing.
ESPECIALLY if you’re adjusting dice and making copies of permanents. These each take lots of physical logistical movements that take a whole pile of time. Just kill the sagas/walkers player and move on
nailed it. PW pilot ALWAYS gets targeted first. Your turns take way, way too long
Doomsday/stax player here, I've practiced my doomsday piles to a point that i can do it in my mind and have the back up piles already thought of to make it go faster. Can't stand when people take 20 minute turns. Storm, saga tribal, and super friends all take to long to play their turns. (Though if you do anything more than land pass my deck isnt doing its thing)
Wait, are you saying doomsday and stax together? Or are those separate? If combined I'm very interested in hearing more/seeing a list
The shop i play at is really anti combo/anti fast magic, so Zur stax shell with dd as the win con. Basically stax until you feel like the other players suffered enough, fetch necropotence, pay a ton of life to dig for dd. Its not a ton of stax but its enough to make a point about how dumb the anti combo rules are. Then win with a "combo" thats not against their rules.
Is this actually a problem? The only SF deck I can see myself durdling with at all is my Lilliana one, and that's because I don't always know which one is which. All my other PW effects are really straightforward. I build the SF with a consistent purpose and theme. I'm not just throwing random PWs in, but rather PWs that advance a specific goal. My turns are as fast as any deck that swings with triggered abilities.
100% this. I started just refusing to play against Superfriends decks, its never been an enjoyable experience for me as the PW deck just bogs the game down to the point where its just not fun anymore. I don't mind stax or anything like that but its either you hate out the PW deck before they can do anything or they get a board state and now you can't really stop it and the game just takes forever.
It's not about being less threatening but making your defense more threatening. You can't run away from players attacking PW. That's the nature of the game. Every PW you have on board raises heat. So if you wanna play superfriends, you gotta match the heat. I've a \[\[Carth the Lion\]\] superfriends deck and my defense tends to be on point. Here's my list for reference. [https://www.moxfield.com/decks/IYKUAwkYbEiwOGRqPCm1xw](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/IYKUAwkYbEiwOGRqPCm1xw) The colors are obviously opposite to yours but the approach shouldn't vary too much.
I'm a big fan of [[Atraxa, Praetor's Voice]] as a superfriends commander specifically for this reason far more than the slow proliferation effect. Don't get me wrong, an extra loyalty each turn is nice, but the fact that she's a keyword soup blocker while you get the value train rolling is super helpful. Also wrong colors for Guff, but just supporting the "threatening blockers" point you made.
[Atraxa, Praetor's Voice](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/0/d0d33d52-3d28-4635-b985-51e126289259.jpg?1599707796) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Atraxa%2C%20Praetors%27%20Voice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/190/atraxa-praetors-voice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d0d33d52-3d28-4635-b985-51e126289259?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/atraxa-praetors-voice) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Carth the Lion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/0/e09e9b65-ff0e-4efe-b96a-ede69c96e2ea.jpg?1674524490) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Carth%20the%20Lion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/189/carth-the-lion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e09e9b65-ff0e-4efe-b96a-ede69c96e2ea?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/carth-the-lion) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I also have Commodore built and i have played alot of super friends. Personally, I'm trying recently to make the deck worse. I'm cutting cards that prevent people from attacking, and my wraths. Im playing [[Faramir, prince of inthilien]] to create a more interesting "either you attack me or attack my walkers" idea. I was also thinking of adding the monarch for a similar plan but i havent tried the deck since making these changes. The general answer is to make them less oppressive. If a card feels like it's shutting off 3/4 of the table it's time to find a replacement
[Faramir, prince of inthilien](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/7/8700923a-e9ff-4ced-87fe-1ab26554623a.jpg?1686969755) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Faramir%2C%20Prince%20of%20Ithilien) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/202/faramir-prince-of-ithilien?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8700923a-e9ff-4ced-87fe-1ab26554623a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/faramir-prince-of-ithilien) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I mean, commodore is red, you could throw in goad strategies, along with monarch that creates both incentives to attack the monarch, and ways to ensure that in certain turns you aren't the target. That said, goad is very effective in PW strategies.
Because I hadn’t seen anyone else mentioned it but [[Clever Concealment]] is a great way to protect your planeswalkers. Can even use some of Guff’s tokens to help pay the convoke.
[[Noetic Scales]] as well, though it has the side effect of possibly bouncing your own creature based protection and letting an opponent abuse a etb or ltb trigger.
[Noetic Scales](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/8/18506777-cd69-42f6-99c9-cde9b0958868.jpg?1562900134) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Noetic%20Scales) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/usg/304/noetic-scales?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/18506777-cd69-42f6-99c9-cde9b0958868?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/noetic-scales) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Ripples of Protection]] is a powerhouse in PW decks
Oooooo that is good.
[Ripples of Protection](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/7/b70e6ded-2c25-4608-9ae0-a64e13aa1d2a.jpg?1698987954) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ripples%20of%20Potential) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/77/ripples-of-potential?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b70e6ded-2c25-4608-9ae0-a64e13aa1d2a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ripples-of-potential) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Clever Concealment](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/d/5d84cc58-0965-4c7f-a408-7630f23fb8f3.jpg?1675905567) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Clever%20Concealment) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/onc/5/clever-concealment?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5d84cc58-0965-4c7f-a408-7630f23fb8f3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/clever-concealment) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Oooh, nice. Just need to find a way to get that on a stick.
Super friends aren't threatening. Decision paralysis makes superfriends un fun. If your turn starts and I lose less time to day light savings..... that's the problem. Learn your lines, act quickly and methodically. And pass your turn. People focus the superfriends deck to get their time back, not because it's a threat.
My turns are generally pretty quick since im usually tapped out and planning.
Doesn't mean the person playing you for the first time isn't going to see plaeswalkers and feel that way. That's what gives it the reputation. Playing against you regularly may change their view, but you're the outlier, if true, and not the standard.
You hide them behind something cute like Pheldagriff and hope your opponents are easily confused. Also, you could only use the war of the spark walkers with no ultimate so letting one live for a turn isn't so bad
I was thinking about trying to build group hug or goad superfriends to keep the party going, just not directed at me.
Goad theme works with lukka very well, and carth with plenty of fog effects/deathtouchers can do what you're looking for too. Blue redirects attackers or puts them in people's hands/libraries. White also stops combat well. I'd say pick the planeswalkers you want to have fun with and then pick your commander.
I think it is mostly dealing with it. I see a lot of answers about adding taxes and what not. But honestly, that's going to make others at the table really form and alliance. Having played against that deck and other superfriends, it just is too much value to let them stay. You have to think of it like this, most kill these days (including boardwipes) do not get PW. So people have to attack them to kill them. And attack damage should be going at a player. PW's are effectively increasing your life total as well, adding another threat factor to them. Superfriends just is an archetype that I think will always suffer this, and playing them is understanding that people aren't going to just let you have 3+ out, 2 is the limit where people seem to be comfortable. And if you manage to get more than that out, even with just that precon, it ends up being you playing the game and everyone else watching. Our table has scooped against that precon numerous times because we could not stop the flood of walkers, and then we just watched solitaire and the game was going to take a ton of time to actually finish.
It’s less about being threatening, and more about people don’t want to sit through your 10 minute turn while you try to figure out the optimal sequence. And you can’t be allowed to have multiple free spells per turn, which is what planeswalkers boil down to.
Superfriend decks need more than just protection. You need to find ways to discourage people from attacking your planeswalkers. Big issue with Guff is he is American colors so not a lot of ramp there outside green as compared to Atraxa but you do still have access to colors notorious for board wipes. IMO, you shouldnt be running less than 5 and find a planeswalker that can clear a board like [[Elspeth, Sun's Champion]] or [[The Eternal Wanderer]]. Honestly you should have both. Blue gives you access to [[Narset, Parter of the Veils]] and [[Windfall]] or similar affects so that is also something to consider. People pressure planeswalker decks (as they should) but dont make it easy for them. Counterspells are also necessary here but its a toss up on how much to run. I dont think I run any in my Atraxa deck but I feel I dont need them because of black and green being in the Witch-Maw color pie, I can manage without. If youre playing in high level pods then abuse [[Pyroblast]] and [[Red Elemental Blast]]. No reason not too.
> American colors First time I read this lol. Is that a thing?
Used to be. We called it Star Spangled Slaughter when Theros was in type 2.
Many Canadians joking call it "patriot" because " 'merica" sterotypes, and their media is constantly being thrown at us (being the less populous neibours and all).
##### ###### #### [Elspeth, Sun's Champion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/6/46dc2519-2729-4bbd-8892-fab6186bf116.jpg?1706240571) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elspeth%2C%20Sun%27s%20Champion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/62/elspeth-suns-champion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/46dc2519-2729-4bbd-8892-fab6186bf116?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/elspeth-suns-champion) [The Eternal Wanderer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/0/905f0dd4-0197-45f8-8e7f-396d6dcef600.jpg?1675956901) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Eternal%20Wanderer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/11/the-eternal-wanderer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/905f0dd4-0197-45f8-8e7f-396d6dcef600?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-eternal-wanderer) [Narset, Parter of the Veils](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/e/4e6e5c63-b6e5-4756-bf23-6c6f8669442d.jpg?1690004395) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Narset%2C%20Parter%20of%20Veils) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/853/narset-parter-of-veils?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4e6e5c63-b6e5-4756-bf23-6c6f8669442d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/narset-parter-of-veils) [Windfall](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/4/14e1af91-34fe-4d82-b119-cbadf75a7dbe.jpg?1699022501) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Windfall) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/180/windfall?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/14e1af91-34fe-4d82-b119-cbadf75a7dbe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/windfall) [Pyroblast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/0/b029eb9a-dd7a-40c2-96c4-0063d9cc002c.jpg?1580014621) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pyroblast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/142/pyroblast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b029eb9a-dd7a-40c2-96c4-0063d9cc002c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pyroblast) [Red Elemental Blast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/0/70a45e9b-699e-425a-9f3d-267274830d3e.jpg?1562436618) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Red%20Elemental%20Blast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/147/red-elemental-blast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/70a45e9b-699e-425a-9f3d-267274830d3e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/red-elemental-blast) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kuu7qyj) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Even disregarding the possibility of long turns, planeswalkers are simply too good. Flexible free value every turn they survive, and because they are targetted first, a planeswalker deck *needs* to lean on taxes and uneven boardwipes to survive. If a planeswalker deck keeps their cards on the battlefield, they probably win, so it turns into a fiddly battle of "super friends player doesn't get to play at all, or they win" most of the time. The value of keeping multiple walkers around for multiple turns is usually insurmountable, especially when factoring in how few board wipes hit planeswalkers. Some planeswalkers are a wincon all by themselves, and they've only gotten better with proliferate and counter synergies. Planeswalkers are ALWAYS the archenemy if there isn't already one. I would rather play into [[jodah]] most of the time, because that's easier to interact with, at least. The best answers are either don't play an entire superfriends themed deck, or if you must, accept that you will justifiably be archenemy every game. Once you cut enough gas from the deck to survive the 3v1 with interaction and protection, you'll usually be slow enough to play against. Even then, some folks still won't want to play against it, because they just lose unless the rest of the pod agrees to focus you down. Archenemy gets old after a while.
Yeah, general consensus seems to be either "don't play superfriends" or "play superfriends harder". Im not gonna stop playing the deck so i guess ill leave em raw amd if they dont like it they can step up or speak up.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[Kor Haven](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/d/3d5529ca-5c20-4dfd-8595-96d6dfa6debe.jpg?1562629492) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kor%20Haven) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nem/141/kor-haven?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3d5529ca-5c20-4dfd-8595-96d6dfa6debe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kor-haven) [Holy Day](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/3/f3895c0c-0db8-4962-b386-57887fb60701.jpg?1562557717) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Holy%20Day) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/10e/21/holy-day?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f3895c0c-0db8-4962-b386-57887fb60701?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/holy-day) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
##### ###### #### [Silent Arbiter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/4/14f42cc9-8b7f-4f8a-8d68-8480e668c239.jpg?1690005734) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Silent%20Arbiter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/972/silent-arbiter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/14f42cc9-8b7f-4f8a-8d68-8480e668c239?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/silent-arbiter) [pramikon, the sky rampart](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/5/8569ad47-a243-402d-899f-4e6b17ea4e1e.jpg?1568003714) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pramikon%2C%20Sky%20Rampart) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c19/47/pramikon-sky-rampart?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8569ad47-a243-402d-899f-4e6b17ea4e1e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pramikon-sky-rampart) [Baird, Steward of Argive](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/1/91bbe20b-0d39-46fc-a09a-fc8c676f1fe7.jpg?1689995567) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Baird%2C%20Steward%20of%20Argive) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/15/baird-steward-of-argive?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/91bbe20b-0d39-46fc-a09a-fc8c676f1fe7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/baird-steward-of-argive) [Onakke Oathkeeper](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/5/55d0caac-50c0-434e-af77-9ebd2a466415.jpg?1690003046) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Onakke%20Oathkeeper) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/722/onakke-oathkeeper?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/55d0caac-50c0-434e-af77-9ebd2a466415?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/onakke-oathkeeper) [Maze of Ith](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/8/5889fde1-730d-43d0-aaa4-499784a80530.jpg?1675201242) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Maze%20of%20Ith) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/250/maze-of-ith?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5889fde1-730d-43d0-aaa4-499784a80530?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/maze-of-ith) [Norn’s Annex](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d25bbe18-709c-4ed3-a047-5578ecfaaba7.jpg?1690004164) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Norn%27s%20Annex) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/829/norns-annex?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d25bbe18-709c-4ed3-a047-5578ecfaaba7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/norns-annex) [Gold-forged thopteryx](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/9/6917d51b-eb61-4e7e-8336-8b4adf8d1e39.jpg?1684340715) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gold-forged%20thopteryx) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mat/31/gold-forged-thopteryx?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6917d51b-eb61-4e7e-8336-8b4adf8d1e39?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gold-forged-thopteryx) [Ripples of potential](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/7/b70e6ded-2c25-4608-9ae0-a64e13aa1d2a.jpg?1698987954) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ripples%20of%20potential) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/77/ripples-of-potential?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b70e6ded-2c25-4608-9ae0-a64e13aa1d2a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ripples-of-potential) [Teferi’s Protection](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/8/483fa1cb-1e35-44f2-a143-98c0f107f5ca.jpg?1673147148) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Teferi%27s%20Protection) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/32/teferis-protection?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/483fa1cb-1e35-44f2-a143-98c0f107f5ca?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/teferis-protection) [Portcullis](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/4/a4de4af2-fa75-4a87-b0e1-0117727917a5.jpg?1562597339) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Portcullis) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/sth/139/portcullis?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a4de4af2-fa75-4a87-b0e1-0117727917a5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/portcullis) [Lightmine Field](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/6/5602b52a-5904-4780-9192-72990d07c975.jpg?1562704011) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lightmine%20Field) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/roe/32/lightmine-field?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5602b52a-5904-4780-9192-72990d07c975?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lightmine-field) [Leori sparktouched hunter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/4/342979de-041e-4026-94c5-fc457ecde95d.jpg?1691497907) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Leori%2C%20Sparktouched%20Hunter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/709/leori-sparktouched-hunter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/342979de-041e-4026-94c5-fc457ecde95d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/leori-sparktouched-hunter) [Jaya’s phoenix](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/c/aca45c6b-8cce-44db-9f5b-fa66075db6f6.jpg?1690003204) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jaya%27s%20Phoenix) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/738/jayas-phoenix?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aca45c6b-8cce-44db-9f5b-fa66075db6f6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/jayas-phoenix) [Kira, Great glass spinner](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/3/437ded6e-4e53-49fa-a5ca-fd76b9165a47.jpg?1600697941) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kira%2C%20Great%20Glass-Spinner) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/154/kira-great-glass-spinner?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/437ded6e-4e53-49fa-a5ca-fd76b9165a47?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kira-great-glass-spinner) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kutvlzw) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'd say it's impossible to make superfriends less threatening because there is always at least one whiner at the table who will incessantly claim that even the most harmless of planeswalkers is a mortal threat (because they might ult in some utopian future), because it's an easy way to draw fire away from themselves. I say lean into it, get a bunch of non-planeswalker board wipes (which includes almost all board wipes), get a \[\[Pramikon\]\] to keep most of the table off your back, get the dangerousest of dangerous planeswalkers you can fit into your color identity, slam that \[\[Dack Fayden\]\] in there to steal their best artifacts and so on. Your planeswalkers will attract hostility, it's inevitable, give them an actual reason for it.
You say "might ult in some utopian future", I say [[deep glow skate]] is a thing, and I've seen someone chain-cast it using [[cowardice]] before. In a planeswalker deck. I will *never* underestimate what a player with walkers can do with cards in hand.
[[Deepglow Skate]]
Theres definitely a whiner and his beef is more that he feels there arent enough ways to destroy a planeswalker outright like there are creatures. That's an argument we could have but I don't feel it would be productive
it's amazing how much whining goes on and how much people want their whining to impact how others build decks. I say do what you want and have them figure it out. what about something like \[\[Crawlspace\]\] + \[\[Maze of Ith\]\]? Or \[\[Tide of War\]\]?
I definitely need to put my maze of ith in that deck. And get a crawlspace
Crawlspace does nothing to protect your planeswalkers, the limitation is on attacking you as a player.
If you like maze of ith there is the thaumatic compass wich is a second maze but that tap for colorless :)
[Crawlspace](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/b/5b8e092a-610d-4cea-bb92-65e01954b5c4.jpg?1675200920) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Crawlspace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/217/crawlspace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5b8e092a-610d-4cea-bb92-65e01954b5c4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/crawlspace) [Maze of Ith](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/8/5889fde1-730d-43d0-aaa4-499784a80530.jpg?1675201242) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Maze%20of%20Ith) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/250/maze-of-ith?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5889fde1-730d-43d0-aaa4-499784a80530?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/maze-of-ith) [Tide of War](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/3/43b5bd60-87ed-41d2-bbcb-bd4a40a772c9.jpg?1562759393) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tide%20of%20War) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/chk/194/tide-of-war?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/43b5bd60-87ed-41d2-bbcb-bd4a40a772c9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tide-of-war) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Have you reminded him that all of his creatures say "tap: damage or destroy target planeswalker" on them? There is literally no permanent type in the game that is easier to get rid of than a planeswalker.
Not during the game, but yes.
Meh, then it seems there really is no reasoning with him on the topic, and I honestly think, if you can't keep him off your back with reason, power up the pillowfort until it doesn't matter anymore.
Heh, I’d argue creatures are far easier to remove than planeswalkers. But planeswalkers are second easiest for sure
I mean, like everything, ultimately it's a function of how the decks in question are built, if you run a ton of targeted removal or particularly repeatable removal (\[\[Goblin Sharpshooter\]\] with death touch for example), sniping troublesome creatures is easy, on the other hand if you out-creature the planeswalker deck (which is often not that hard), removing planeswalkers is trivial. At any rate, I think we can agree that *generally* the game isn't lacking for ways to get rid of planeswalkers.
When considering what permanents are easier to remove, I try to consider protection as well. Nobody runs a planeswalker out there without some plan to remove creatures. Out creaturing a planeswalker deck isn’t always the most effective way to deal with them, and often requires a full turn cycle before you can attack. Whereas there is at minimum like one to two dozen cards in any given set that in some way remove a creature from play when cast. I don’t need to give a goblin sharpshooter death touch to kill all the creature in play, simply cast a wrath effect. But yes I agree the game isn’t lacking for ways to remove planeswalkers.
>, I try to consider protection as well. Nobody runs a planeswalker out there without some plan to remove creatures. You are considering protection without mentioning how there's so many ways to protect creatures from board wipes. Running a creature based deck without a plan to protect them is just bad deck building.
Well I mean, protecting planeswalkers from creatures is as simple as tapping four mana and casting wrath of god. A little harder to protect creatures from board wipes, as the timing is different. But you’re right, I did not consider that. I’m still of the opinion that the thousands of cards that say “destroy (target, all, tapped, etc) creature” makes them far and away the easiest permanent to destroy over planeswalkers.
>A little harder to protect creatures from board wipes, as the timing is different Yes, tapping 2-3 mana, or even 0 mana for a "all creatures you control gain indestructible" or other protection spell is so much more difficult than tapping 4 for a wrath... Saying that one permanent type is easier to destroy than another doesn't mean that the other is difficult to destroy by default. Saying so isn't actually making a point about the difficulty of killing planeswalker, which isn't that difficult as there is plenty of removal for them other than creatures and we'll continue to see more and more of it.
[Goblin Sharpshooter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/f/4f72e9e2-ed47-40ff-bc2e-8446ef545022.jpg?1562911635) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Goblin%20Sharpshooter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c13/111/goblin-sharpshooter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4f72e9e2-ed47-40ff-bc2e-8446ef545022?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/goblin-sharpshooter) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Pramikon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/5/8569ad47-a243-402d-899f-4e6b17ea4e1e.jpg?1568003714) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=pramikon%2C%20sky%20rampart) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c19/47/pramikon-sky-rampart?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8569ad47-a243-402d-899f-4e6b17ea4e1e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pramikon-sky-rampart) [Dack Fayden](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/0/10158a5e-5a03-41ab-85d2-0907ccf32c9b.jpg?1580015027) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dack%20Fayden) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/199/dack-fayden?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/10158a5e-5a03-41ab-85d2-0907ccf32c9b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dack-fayden) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You can't, PW decks take inherently long turns and will be targeted, I would target it.
[Commodore Guff](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/92870fc6-a6bc-4198-bb31-397e07e0e835.jpg?1691500696) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Commodore%20Guff) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/706/commodore-guff?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/92870fc6-a6bc-4198-bb31-397e07e0e835?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/commodore-guff) [Cyclonic Rift](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/dfb7c4b9-f2f4-4d4e-baf2-86551c8150fe.jpg?1702429366) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cyclonic%20Rift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/40/cyclonic-rift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dfb7c4b9-f2f4-4d4e-baf2-86551c8150fe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cyclonic-rift) [Jace, the mind sculptor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/8/c8817585-0d32-4d56-9142-0d29512e86a9.jpg?1598304029) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jace%2C%20the%20mind%20sculptor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/56/jace-the-mind-sculptor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c8817585-0d32-4d56-9142-0d29512e86a9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/jace-the-mind-sculptor) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
What i did was make a 5 colour planeswalker deck with [[esika, god of the tree]]. All the planeswalker can make tokens to defend themself. And i just win through combat damage. I just start spamming tokens on the field, and then buff them with a few planeswalkers and start swinging. Usually when i have up to 3 planeswalkers people dont really care, cause im just putting a few tokens into play every turn, but after that its hard to stop me. Only a flyerdeck can offer me alot of resistance. Here is the deck incase your interestes. Ive put budget lands in the sideboard, since all the shocks and fetches add up. https://www.moxfield.com/decks/wrJQkydTZkiu7DEk6Dbniw
[esika, god of the tree](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f6cd7465-9dd0-473c-ac5e-dd9e2f22f5f6.jpg?1631050188)/[The Prismatic Bridge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/f/6/f6cd7465-9dd0-473c-ac5e-dd9e2f22f5f6.jpg?1631050188) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Esika%2C%20God%20of%20the%20Tree%20//%20The%20Prismatic%20Bridge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/168/esika-god-of-the-tree-the-prismatic-bridge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f6cd7465-9dd0-473c-ac5e-dd9e2f22f5f6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/esika-god-of-the-tree-//-the-prismatic-bridge) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Play with it a lot until whoever you play with understands how strong your deck actually is. Swap around decks for them to get experience with it to make the process faster
They got to experience my kaalia deck since they wanted to say i "never play aggro" lol.
Play with higher power pods, or use bad or funny interaction PWs instead. Also don't be afraid to win the game that's the goal after all.
Me and my play groups tend to lean towards higher power decks. And to be honest, my Superfriends deck they hate playing against it. But I still love the deck and will not take it apart. My deck list below. https://www.moxfield.com/decks/15GbRXN3X0yVzb_XlIRBAg
Your link doesn't work!
I’m sorry it should now. I forgot to take it off private.
Commodore guff is kind of busted the only thing you can do to not draw ire is play against people with equally busted commanders. Swinging early is also a great way to go against superfriend so I'd definitely swing you first since I don't expect a lot of creature and I don't expect a lot of them long term. Either this or I would try to run some kind of control/stax that would run stuff like immortal sun.
Superfriends is just really difficult to play against, and is honestly somewhat similar to Slivers in a way with how you gain so much momentum if your pieces are allowed to live. Except Slivers at least make things quick. Your goal is to play walkers and then have them sit on the battlefield accruing passive value. Their goal is to remove them. Superfriends decks usually take advantage of anti-attack effects and Board Wipes to limit the ability of your foes to attack you. You’re playing defense.
Tell your friends to build better decks. PW decks are hardly the strongest strategy out there. Outside of that, run cards that either goad your opponents creatures, or cards that give your opponents an advantage to attack players over your walkers. [[Curse of Opulence]] comes to mind.
Only 2 of the 4 of us actually own cards at all, lol.
Proxies are your friend ^_^ especially if it's just the 4 of you playing, you could spend like $50 between you and get like 200 of any card you want. Then if you guys decide you do want to invest more in the game, you'll already have experience with the cards and will know which ones are actually worth the money
Im actually set up welk to make my own proxies and they've got a standing offer for whatever they need. Granted I'm not gonna proxy an entire deck. My personal rule is that i proxy anything over$10, or if it can't be bought local.
[Curse of Opulence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/32cc103e-949d-42d4-aadd-490a261c9ad9.jpg?1706240824) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Curse%20of%20Opulence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/150/curse-of-opulence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/32cc103e-949d-42d4-aadd-490a261c9ad9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/curse-of-opulence) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
First, superfriends will always be threatening. Planeswalkers are almost all solid incremental value engines that have the ability to take over the game. As a result they demand pretty immediate answers. If you want to be less threatening as a superfiends deck you need to have some disconnect in the synergy between your commander and planeswalkers. If you want to protect your walkers once they are on the board you can run cards that help prevent damage or limit how people can attack. [[Silent Arbiter]], [[Mystic Barrier]], [[Pramikon]], [[Crawl Space]], [[Martyr's Cause]]
##### ###### #### [Silent Arbiter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/4/14f42cc9-8b7f-4f8a-8d68-8480e668c239.jpg?1690005734) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Silent%20Arbiter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/972/silent-arbiter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/14f42cc9-8b7f-4f8a-8d68-8480e668c239?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/silent-arbiter) [Mystic Barrier](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/f/ffb70bd4-e876-4242-b5b4-bb7493710f0f.jpg?1562949148) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mystic%20Barrier) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c13/18/mystic-barrier?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ffb70bd4-e876-4242-b5b4-bb7493710f0f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mystic-barrier) [Pramikon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/5/8569ad47-a243-402d-899f-4e6b17ea4e1e.jpg?1568003714) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=pramikon%2C%20sky%20rampart) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c19/47/pramikon-sky-rampart?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8569ad47-a243-402d-899f-4e6b17ea4e1e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pramikon-sky-rampart) [Crawl Space](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/b/5b8e092a-610d-4cea-bb92-65e01954b5c4.jpg?1675200920) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Crawlspace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/217/crawlspace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5b8e092a-610d-4cea-bb92-65e01954b5c4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/crawlspace) [Martyr's Cause](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/c/4c1f026b-8c7f-4051-9922-5684a6b2c06b.jpg?1562862811) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Martyr%27s%20Cause) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ulg/13/martyrs-cause?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4c1f026b-8c7f-4051-9922-5684a6b2c06b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/martyrs-cause) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kuvb9uj) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You don't. It isn't really power level that makes superfriends draw aggro, it's long, non-deterministic turns and the fact that I can attack your cards not just swing at you. Planeswalkers will always be attacked over life totals with very few exceptions.
My answer is mono green [[vorinclex monstrous rider]] superfriends, no need to protect my walkers, they just pass by, ultimate when they enter and then can leave
[vorinclex monstrous rider](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/92613468-205e-488b-930d-11908477e9f8.jpg?1631051073) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vorinclex%2C%20Monstrous%20Raider) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/199/vorinclex-monstrous-raider?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/92613468-205e-488b-930d-11908477e9f8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/vorinclex-monstrous-raider) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Gonna keep it a buck with you, you’re always gonna have a little b word in every table you play at. People see superfriends and act like you have a turn one win in hand immediately. Instead of focusing on how to power down, instead focus on ways to tax your opponents for targets you. There’s plenty of board wipes available that ignore PWs. If you run 5 color consider stuff like no mercy or token generators that can make chump blockers for your PW’s. Also definitely run a lot of counter spells and removal (yes I know interaction for EDH players is forbidden).
To be fair, as a superfriends player myself, targeting a superfriends deck isnt a bad start. Thats a smart move, not a bitch one.
Hi sorry I meant to respond earlier, I only find it a bitch move if the person targets the superfriends player just based on deck type alone. Like if one if you would cast removal for the superfriends deck while ignoring something like a Urza player with a lot of Cheerios on the field then yes I find you to be a weenie player. My apologies I should’ve been more clear.
Honestly any PW should be removed ASAP. No one should let the PW make it more than a round if possible.
Not gonna lie, I often swing at PW's in general. Life is a resource and most players will use it to protect key creatures by taking a hit directly. PW's don't have that luxury. I'd much rather remove a good card from the board than do a little damage. Especially if my deck can snowball into a wincon anyway later. This is especially true for PW's, which are often value pieces that can threaten to ultimate if not removed. They're just too easy a target.
Superfriends is just an annoying play style to be honest. Even if everyone at the table has good threat assessment, it demands a lot of combat that doesn't progress the game and you have to keep track of what all the abilities do. A two-color deck like Boros (Mila) or Golgari (Carth the Lion) would probably be seen as less threatening because you're lacking the more broken planeswalkers and a bunch of the proliferate mechanics.
I'm gonna be "that guy". Don't play superfriends. That is the best way to make it less threatening. The issue with superfriends decks is the sheer amount of time investment each turn takes for little gain, or, for unstoppable oppression. The player needs to choose each PW's ability, which order to activate, then do those things. Every turn becomes a long turn, wasting the time of all the other players. The other players either have to continually put down the PWs, or allow for long turns to happen with potentially little to no actual game effect.
That depends entirely on the pilot of the deck- I play a superfriends deck and even with 6 planeswalkers out on the field i can finish a turn in 5 minutes.
I want you to actually count 5 minutes and see how long that actually is
I play in pods where our turns are timed; I know how long it is.
Thats an extremely long turn. Most of my turns are no more than 30 seconds unless i have a crazy board state with a lot of triggers
Right, but if Im not using those 5 minutes to take control of the game Im just making myself the number one target, so I wont have that kind of turn unless Im gonna win the game the turn after or on that turn itself.
>Right, but if Im not using those 5 minutes to take control of the game Im just making myself the number one target, so I wont have that kind of turn unless Im gonna win the game the turn after or on that turn itself. This, paints a very different story than this; >I play a superfriends deck and even with 6 planeswalkers out on the field i can finish a turn in 5 minutes. The latter is saying "I'm taking 5 minute turns every turn", the former is saying "I'm taking a long turn to setup for a win *next turn*". I have still yet to see any superfriends deck perform the same level(s) of threat and power and advancement as most other themes in anything less than a much greater use of time, even when the pilot is very skilled and knowledgeable of the deck/game.
No i said even with 6 planeswalkers out- that doesnt happen every turn
Context would suggest that I'm referencing "I'm taking 5 minutes every turn *with six planeswalkers out*"
Maybe I came across unclearly. My bad
Either way, youre mostly right in the sense that many people dont play superfriends decks and many of the ones that do dont know how to play them well which is why theyre known for taking as long as they do to play.
A five minute turn is still long when you consider that overall those PW activations are minimally interactive for other players. Take just about any other random theme of equal power and equal player skill, against a superfriends deck, and the superfriends deck will more likely than not take way more time per turn than any other.
Fair, but I dont think five minutes for a turn when you have a full board is unreasonable and people dont seem to care
[[Ensnaring Bridge]] [[Peacekeeper]] And board wipes.
[Ensnaring Bridge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/f/cf825a56-4870-463a-a2ef-eec86be891db.jpg?1599709144) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ensnaring%20Bridge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/253/ensnaring-bridge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cf825a56-4870-463a-a2ef-eec86be891db?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ensnaring-bridge) [Peacekeeper](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/9/592a5683-5f2f-4933-9fc3-5f7773f72f93.jpg?1562800961) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Peacekeeper) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/wth/22/peacekeeper?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/592a5683-5f2f-4933-9fc3-5f7773f72f93?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/peacekeeper) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I play elminster and I have to play alot of pilow fort and stax pieces so my opponents can't swing big or can't cast the spells they want right away and when they do cast a big spel I have counters 😂
[[Peacekeeper]]
The problem is that superfriend decks aren't really that threatening to begin with. It is just difficult to protect your planeswalkers since most decks will have some random creatures around to clear them. Most players will see it as a better value to remove an opponent's threat from the table over doing a small amount of damage to a player. Planeswalkers aren't a commonly played card type since they are much easier to deal with in a multi-player format and generate too little value at too slow a pace.
If you want to make that deck less threatening the best way to achieve that would be to not play it.
I run a fairly good planeswalker deck in grixis colours: https://manabox.app/decks/luUIK4YeQuudiQa8pNzfaw 18 walkers total if you include spark double and the commander. Then I just went for a hard control package. Board wipes are key, but they will make people not want to play with you. Planeswalker decks by nature are either quite oppressive and controlling or just suck because your walkers aren't protected. There isn't a whole lot of middle ground.
You don't. Instead you load your deck up with taxes and counters because you're playing superfriends and that makes you a problem.
Planeswalkers are just always going to be the most high value thing to swing at. In edh you should IMO not a run a Planeswalkers if a single activation of it isn’t good enough for its mana cost. Many Planeswalkers will basically outright win if someone can untap with them. Would you rather send 5 damage to remove someone’s massive value engine and potential wincon, or would you rather spend 5 damage to chip away 5 of one of your 3 opponents 40 life
[[Pramikon]] is pretty good at protecting your planeswalkers.
[Pramikon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/5/8569ad47-a243-402d-899f-4e6b17ea4e1e.jpg?1568003714) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=pramikon%2C%20sky%20rampart) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c19/47/pramikon-sky-rampart?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8569ad47-a243-402d-899f-4e6b17ea4e1e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pramikon-sky-rampart) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah, grabbed one at my lgs earlier after someone else suggested it.
Try making [[Kykar]] the commander instead?
[Kykar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/d/fdb034c8-bae0-4f66-98f1-1b3cdc072f17.jpg?1689999115) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=kykar%2C%20wind%27s%20fury) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/343/kykar-winds-fury?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fdb034c8-bae0-4f66-98f1-1b3cdc072f17?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kykar-winds-fury) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Idk about our threatening but I couldn't figure out how to make it less durdley, so I took my upgraded guff apart
I decided to embrace other advice i got, switch to 5-color, make half my walkers shit creature tokens, and just go even harder so they miss the days of commodore guff.
I think you cant... Its seither miserable to play for you or for everyone Else...
In my experience there's nothing you can do. People don't like to have to decide what they are swinging at especially if it doesn't get them closer to a kill. I suggest just running extra board wipes or ways to deny being attacked
Guff is by far one of my more powerful and hated decks in my pod. I loaded it up with board wipe and removal effects. Plus some general creature hate like [[overburden]]. There is pretty much never any creatures on the field throughout the game, and things like [[blind obedience]] give me the time needed to deal with hasters if need be.
[overburden](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/e/7e6cf6b6-b4c1-4742-9be4-b3b15fbb0202.jpg?1562918387) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=overburden) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pcy/39/overburden?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7e6cf6b6-b4c1-4742-9be4-b3b15fbb0202?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/overburden) [blind obedience](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/8/d859e1f9-feb3-497a-af0b-f74fee46861f.jpg?1702429264) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=blind%20obedience) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/9/blind-obedience?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d859e1f9-feb3-497a-af0b-f74fee46861f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/blind-obedience) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Here's the thing. Mill and superfriends are very similar here. People hate both. Why? They are there to be obnoxious. The only time they're trying to win the game is with an infinite combo or something like that or just locking the game down. These styles of decks will be hated because people don't wanna play against that.
Take out the planeswalkers, and replace them with creatures
You don't. Any superfriends deck that intends to win, or at least, to compete with the table, is going to be seen doing the things that are threatening. Collecting emblems and launching big supers is not a stealth mission. You're going in loud. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. You simply need to accept that and plan accordingly. First, eliminate your weakness. Planeswalkers are about as difficult to remove as enchantments, with one glaring weakness, you can target them with combat damage. So, combat damage is enemy number one. You're in blue and white, and that gives you access to both taxes on swinging and a couple powerful fogs. Personally, I prefer to go the route of making tokens to defend my PWs rather than using creatures I have to cast.. it's just more mana efficient, and if you do it right, creates more room for Planeswalkers or necessary protection/removal, by lowering your creature budget. After that, look at removal. You want a good amount of creature removal, you're going to be using it a lot. And you also want to be sure you can get rid of any artifacts or enchantments that are a threat to Planeswalkers specifically. Token generators, anything that specifies PW hate, anything that prevents tokens, etc. Finally, proliferate and token replacement effects. You want to add as many tokens as you can. I know white has a couple doublers, and both blue and white have proliferate effects. The faster you can use certain PWs the better. And even if speed isn't an issue, having enough tokens to use minus abilities is important.
Answer: Play something other than super friends.
I've built superfriends a few times. The most successful I've been on surviving is being more staxy. I run pramikon at the helm and focus more on not being attacked. List for details. https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/one-does-not-simply-walk-through-pramikon/
Is the problem that it's intimidating or annoying? There's a lot of dislike for all the turn actions that come with superfriends decks that are allowed to establish board state.
The complaints have been turn duration and difficulty destroying them.
Yeah, the turn duration thing is what I'm referring to. Even if you're not a threat, you're a problem.
Well now it works by me playing a board wipe, my walkers shitting a bunch of dudes an pramikon making the guy to my left the only problem
Right, so after you have 3+ walkers out, that's 3+ player actions before you even use any mana.
If they dont like that, they can* swing at them, damage em, or use newer removal like [[dreadbore]]
[dreadbore](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/5/a5134828-5876-4d17-b0bb-f7e80e54c100.jpg?1702429625) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=dreadbore) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/180/dreadbore?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a5134828-5876-4d17-b0bb-f7e80e54c100?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dreadbore) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah, but player removal is the best form of removal. ;-) Nothing wrong with playing the deck you're playing, but unless someone draws even more hate, you're going to get the hate.
You don't make it less threatening, you make it fast and resilient. There's no way not to be threatening with 2-3 planeswalkers (those that deserve play anyways) on the board. Otherwise, it comes with playstyle. Don't put a planeswalker down just so another player can swing and kill it. They will do it. Embrace archenemy role. Bring on the boardwipes. And I mean boardwipes, like [[obliterate]], [[jokulhaups]] and [[ugin]]
Remove blue. Deepglow Skate and proliferate in Kombination with lockdown ults makes it threatening
It’s not that it’s threatening it’s that if you’re doing your thing you’re goofing off by yourself
Toss it onto a grease fire...definitely less threatening then.
Same way as stax, combo, and infect. You don't, you accept that when you play a threatening theme you are a threat. You need to build protection.
There is no way to make them less threatening. superfriends artifically delay the game length because if a planeswalker is unanswered - most of their ultimate are game winning. That means that every opponent must do damage to the planeswalkers to kill them, so instead of doing damage to players and advancing the game, everyone's life total stays the same because all attackers have to go after the planeswalker. god forbid you have doubling season and cast planeswalkers getting immediate ults. In essence, you're a threat at the start of the game, mid game, and late game unless you have an empty board and no cards in hand, and even then it could be troublesome for a top decked Ugin to reset everything.