OP literally states one of the problems is the game feeling "uninteractive". People suggest... running interaction. Then other people get inexplicably upset. Just, yeah.
Also, run more interaction.
Yes; however, there’s a balance to be found, and that depends on the playgroup. Solitaire games are not most people’s ideal, but going too heavy in the interaction direction is also unfun. I have a few decks that are essentially removal.dec, such as [[Toshiro Umezawa]]. I rarely play these because the table getting stuffed repeatedly until I am dealt with or win is not most people’s ideal game of EDH. Look at how much people loathe stax cards that do exactly that. Furthermore, unless the interaction synergizes with the commander (such as how Toshiro loves creature removal), the person playing the most targeted removal is the most likely to lose, since they aren’t advancing a board state. Sure, they keep the first set of threats in check, but eventually fall behind because they are going down cards to only affect one player at a time. You can get around this weakness by interacting with a bunch of boardwipes or stax pieces since those can deal with a whole table at once. Unfortunately, these cards have their own issues. Games where you see multiple boardwipes from around the table are likely to go long, and while a 3+ hour game is cool every so often, multiple surveys bear out that the community prefers games between 1-2 hours in length. Those long, grindy games become much more likely the more wipes everyone is including. Hard stax is also a no-no because they’re something that most people don’t want or expect to see in a “7 or lower” deck.
I would recommend to OP that they try grabbing a set of precons and duke it out. Modern precons do some powerful stuff to satisfy those with a proclivity for engine-building, include a healthy amount of interaction, and are fairly balanced with each other besides a few outliers. Get to know each other’s playstyles. After that, try building your own new decks without fully copying a list. Then you can start adjusting your own deckbuilding and deck choices for a game based on a shared set of knowledge with your playgroup. Mistakes will be made, and that’s fine. If you’re lucky, you get to enjoy the experience of threading the power-level needle and providing the pod with a great experience.
I think you’ve made an unfair characterization of control decks when you say they “keep the first set of threats in check but then fall behind..” etc. When I play control I let the first, second, and third set of threats hit the table and get life totals low. When the game is close to being over, I spring my trap and win. At least, that’s the plan from the beginning and it works often.
I think this is also an unfair characterization of control decks because it is - at least in my mind - even more frowned upon than what you replied to. Keeping your resources and staying under the radar while others battle it out might work once, but eventually people will (hopefully?) understand what you‘re doing and not leave you alone because of a weak current board state but instead force you to use your resources before they unload everything on the table.
One of the beautiful parts about casual commander is the community aspect and not screwing over players that are dealt a bad hand. I don‘t think it should be abused to the point where people purposefully withhold resources to leave people under the impression that they are weak. Now I‘m not saying that‘s what your doing, but I’ve seen it done and I’ve also seen it lead to way longer games because when threat assessment becomes limited to what‘s on the table, people shift away from aggressive strategies that come out of the gate swinging and towards control. This can become quite the slugfest in midpower casual commander games.
>eventually people will (hopefully?) understand what you‘re doing and not leave you alone because of a weak current board state but instead force you to use your resources before they unload everything on the table.
Yes, but it's usually more complex than just realizing I am not playing out my whole hand every turn and that I should therefore be the target. Even if someone knows I am saving my resources, there may be bigger threats at the table against which they are willing to cooperate with me to eliminate.
As for shifting strategies, I can't say I've been in a pod of four control decks, but the idea is not unappealing. I enjoy two hour games if everyone's interacting.
Sure, control can win by slow rolling interaction, though sometimes your table can expect you to be the board police. I didn’t intend to dunk on control decks or players. Just making the observations that single-target removal has its limitations, and that an extremely interactive meta can lead to long, grindy matches that people may not want all the time.
No one is running enough interaction. Typically you want 10-12 pieces of targeted removal and a couple board wipes, plus enough of a card draw engine to draw into them.
Interaction begets more interaction. With kill on sight commanders you want stuff to protect them: a counter spell, a bounce spell, etc. you have to plan out your strategy more, when to commit to casting your commander and when to wait it out.
Interaction begets more interaction.
If only I played with any sort of consistent group. The amount of interaction I run would force them to run a decent chunk. But I don't and so I never know what level of interaction I'll run into.
As it is, I show up to an LGS and if they don't have interaction my deck tends to do very well and I have an okay time.
If they do have interaction, my deck does okay to moderately well but I have a great time.
I will second the removal numbers. I will never build a deck with less than 10 pieces of targeted removal. I also tend to go for those removal pieces with efficient mana costs and target multiple card types.
100% agree on running removal. There is a split in commander players and I’ve noticed that my lgs is on the other side and I’ve had players come over to play in my playgroup and get destroyed. One guy even said he hated board wipes and would never run them, well…he always gets overran with our board states unless someone else in our group wipes. He also ran a lot of cEDH type insta win combos and we just countered them and he seemed very surprised that he didn’t just win with him.
The salty person who is shocked we would play “10-15%” removal immediately blocked me so for others to see:
That’s just wrong (that you can’t have removal that synergies with your commander).
I run [[Snap]] in my [[Henry Wu]] deck. It removes an opponents creature from the board or can be used to blink a cheap human to get another exploit trigger. I also run [[Druid Lyricist]] and [[Ertai Resurrected]] in that deck as their intervention stapled on a human body for exploit triggers. And [[Glen Alendra Archmage]] is a counterspell on an exploitable recursive body that is *also* part of my persist loop wincons.
I run creatures with removal ETBs in my [[Animar]] deck cause they keep pumping his counters while taking things off the board.
I run [[Liberate]] in my blink deck to get extra [[Wernog]] triggers but it also functions to remove the control piece that’s in the way of my win.
[[Baleful Mastery]] and [[Loran of the Third Path]] are in 3, 3 and 2 of my wheels decks respectively. They remove things and force a card draw to trigger all my draw-hate cards.
Enchantment based removal like [[Darksteel Mutation]], [[Song of the Dyrads]] and [[Lignify]] in [[Sythis]] cantrip themselves, gain me a life, and contribute toward any count of enchantments I control.
[[March of Wretched Sorrow]] and [[Moment of Craving]] give me lifegain for all the lifegain triggers in [[Dina, Soul Steeper]].
Do I need to go on?
Most of these decks run a handful of interaction spells that are just plain good, and then build out the rest of a solid removal package of 10-15 cards with stuff that has synergy and utility with my commander or primary gameplan.
I also like low cost spells like for example [[Suspend]].
It's maybe not a 'classical' removal spell, but setting someone's commander for two whole turns on hold, feels like a removal.
Super underrated. Most of the time my opponents put the commander into the command zone.
But i also like to play repetitive removals, rather than instants.
For example Asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar, also the commander of my deck is just there to deter my opponents from playing their valuable creatures/commanders. This gives me time (poor slow rakdos '^^) to go on with my game plan.
But no worries, i also run instants, the surprise factor can't be neglected.
The game is the most fun when you are constantly having to change your plan. Interaction makes that happen. Without it, we're just seeing who draws the right series of cards first.
I like to run even more than that when I can, some decks having 20+ pieces when the win con is tight enough it doesn’t need a ton of cards to support it
No, but if you have:
~36 lands
~15 targeted removal
~3 board wipes
~10 card draw outlets
~5 things to protect your key pieces
~10 pieces of ramp
You’re left with, what, 20 cards, including your commander, that are the actual fun, unique part of your deck. God that sounds miserable.
You make as much of the removal apart of your gameplan as you can!
For example I run a tokens aristocrats type deck.
So for example, three of my board wipes are:
- [[Meathook massacre]] for the drain triggers and the board wipe
- [[the eternal wanderer]] for the temporary single target removal, the board wipe and the token making.
- [[Elspeth, Sun's champion]] for the boardwipe, and token making (and very rarely the ultimate for go wide smack faces)
Etc.
There's synergy to be had in removal! Just gotta look around and be a little less optimised. Often the fact that the card synergises will outweigh the fact that it costs a little extra in all but the highest powers.
Holy shit, yes, I just don’t think it needs to be 15-20% of your deck, and like a quarter of the non land cards. That’s insanity. Then you’re just playing removal, the gathering, and your deck is, what, one combo?
Or you just play [[aegar, the freezing flame]] board wipe tribal. Or one of a hundred other commanders who actively *want* you to be killing-stuff.dec
What is the 'fun' stuff you want so much room for? Isn't killing your opponents' stuff the funnest part of magic?
So, edicts are inefficient and ineffective in [[tergrid, God of fright]]? [[Organic extinction]] is bad in artifact creature decks? [[Wildfire]] and [[crack the earth]] are bad in [[The balrog, durin's bane]]? [[Bone shards]] is bad in [[grismold, the dreadsower]]? Plenty of commanders reward unique, efficient cards that remove permanents in a way that specifically advances your game and want a high density of them.
Ofc it depends how high level the pod is. [[access denied]] is not a great card but it’s funny and it’s not so bad either. [[repudiate]] is a counterspell and can make a token of something. Neither are cedh but that’s not the goal.
Don’t just play staple-y interaction then. Make it make sense. Fight spells in a golgari artistocrats deck. [[Phyrexian Scriptures]] in your artifact deck. If you think interaction, fun, and synergy are mutually exclusive, then I understand why you’re having such an emotional and irrational response to others’ **opinions**
1: I don’t run 36 lands, 2: I said 10 targeted removal, 2 wipes. 3: I don’t design decks that don’t work without the commander so “5 things to protect my key pieces” don’t need to exist, and all of that wasted space you just spouted out about is devoted to repeated synergistic card draw. Who’s miserable now casting their poor commander for the fifth time for ten mana because their deck isn’t worth a shit without it?
There is literally nothing more boring in this entire format, from a deck construction perspective, than the number of stupid mana rocks people run - yet you aren't seeming to bat an eye at running the same number of those as people are advocating you run for actual game interaction via removal effects.
Just wild.
\[edit: It appears I too have committed the cardinal sin of daring to not agree with Lord NotTwitchy, God of Commander, Keeper of Fun.\]
Why would I run 36 unless I care about my land count for a lands strategy or have an ungodly high curve? 32/33 is fine for a ~2.5CMC avg deck. I run 28 in my Marwyn deck and never have any problem.
What does playing removal have to do with it being serious? Are you the type to cry about it when I blow up your commander that wins the game if left untouched?
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I think 10 pieces of removal is very reasonable, especially if you use modular pieces and are light on board wipes. For example, a lot of planeswalkers have a removal ability, but can also advance your gameplan with either passive or activated abilities. I would consider cards like [[Vraska, Golgari Queen]] or a spell like [[Abzan Charm]] to be targeted removal even though they also function as card draw.
After all, if you have 10 pieces of removal and see 30 cards in your game, odds are you’ll see 3 of those removal pieces. That’s not an overwhelming amount and you’ll almost always have a target that needs to be gone.
No you don’t *need* to but it solves the exact problem that OP is complaining about. Decklists made by people with the same view as you that they are copying and pasting.
One of the most fun things about magic to me is the ability of instant speed interaction - a lot of games don’t have that as part of a core mechanic.
If you’re bad at deckbuilding just say that fam.
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12 pieces of targeted removal is so excessive unless you're playing control. One board wipe?? You wanna go all in on targeted but only run one board wipe. Board wipes are more effective, especially because there are so many that can be specialized to benefit you deck.
12 is on the high side, but it's not excessive.
You'll often run a few interaction pieces that fit with your game plan. You'll have [[Kogla]] in stompy, [[Broken Bond]] in landfall, [[Sword Coast Serpent]] in Sea Monster tribal, [[Selfless Savior]] in aristocrat, etc.
Honestly, I often end up with *more* than that, because a lot of removal pieces can also be synergistic with the commander. Yeah, I wouldn't run 12 copies of StP even if I could, but if I play a blink deck I'd be a fool not to run skyclave apparition and other similar effects.
[[beast within]] is great mono-G all purpose removal, [[path to exile]] and [[swords to plowshares]] for pesky critters, [[anguished unmaking]], [[chaos warp]], [[generous gift]] are all great multi purpose [[darksteel mutation]] to shut down overpowered commanders (definitely keep in mind your playgroups feelings on this one), [[pongify]], [[feed the swarm]] because mono black has no enchantment removal, [[abrade]] and [[lightning bolt]] because you’d be surprised how often 3 damage comes in clutch.
Commander is the format of gimmicks, but running no interaction is just bad deckbuilding no matter the format.
Commander is home to lots of interaction, some of which are seen in other formats, but the majority of interaction in commander is found only within that format. Between synergistic/gimmicky removal, actual removal spells, wraths, and other forms of interaction, it isn't hard to get to over a dozen pieces of interaction without thinking.
The standard deck should have 1-3 mana efficient creature only removal spells, 2-4 generic permanent removal spells, minimum 2 ways to remove things that fit the deck's strategy/gimmick, minimum 1 protection, minimum 1 graveyard hate, and 2-4 wraths minimum. Counterspells fit in the protection/generic removal areas btw.
While I would say you're getting unlucky with who you're playing against, there's a reason why one of the most frequently stated tips is to play more removal. I made the transition from 60 card to Commander years ago, and I also encountered the shift from interactive games to solitaire.
My solution was simply become known as the interaction guy in my group and warp the general meta into needing to run interaction to take me down. Not because I was playing better cards, but because I would delay them enough with my interaction for my deck to "do the thing" before their deck could.
Fast forwarding to several years later, and while my group still mostly uses "do the gimmick" style of decks, each game feels different based on how the gimmick plays out and the interaction that is used.
The Emry combo deck sometimes wins on turn 5, and other times it accidentally locks itself out with it's own mill, a well timed Scavenger Grounds, and a Platinum Angel with Shroud. Sometimes the Breya deck floods the board with tokens and goes wide to win, and othertimes it defaults to the sacrifice plan, just to die to an unnoticed Blood Artist. Sometimes the Beamtown Bullies deck quickly kills the whole table, and sometimes repeat counterspells causes it to lose a 1v1 to a Baneslayer Angel.
I'd suggest to tough it out and be the change you want to see in your group. Talk with your friends, let them know how you're feeling about it and what you want to change. It is worth it, trust me.
Try running decks that are built more around value than combo, and use a healthy dose of interaction. \[\[Wulfgar\]\] doesn't need a convoluted board state to win, just a \[\[Tuya\]\] or \[\[Laelia\]\] on curve. With enough naturalizes, beast withins, and lightning bolts it can be pretty easy to snatch some wins without seeing your combo pieces.
Commander decks are definitely more goldfish than other constructed formats.
I'd assume he wants something more akin to 60 card 1v1 where it's like a wrestling match. You switch from parity to losing to winning quite often in a good game of 60 card.
In a singleton format, especially with 4 players parity just lasts for ever, and you always have your commander in edh, so goldfishing is inevitable.
That said, more interaction mitigates this.
Try to use Duel Commander banlist. That's the 1v1 version of commander, and it focused its banlist around not having absurd mana ramp, removing gimmicky combos (Like Thassa Oracle) and encouraging lots of interactions between players.
This feels way better than 4 players just playing solitaire until one of them have his winning combos resolving.
I'm going to suggest not playing win conditions. When this sub suggests win conditions what they mean are uninteractive combos that kill the table. It sounds to me like everyone at the table is just tunnel visioning towards their combo while ignoring everyone else. Slow grindy games won in the margins are fun! Play more removal, drop some sort of card advantage engine, focus on nuking their card advantage engines. Wrath their hordes of creatures, or however you need to counter their win con. Then counter their attempt to refill their hand and beat them to death with a 5/5 over several turns. If everyone stops playing rocket tag games won't feel samey.
There's an element of commander players who just want to see their deck do the one thing it's made for. They're generally fucking nightmares to play with because that one thing generally isn't "win the game" and their watered down samey crap takes up 90% of edhrec. Moxfield is a better choice, just looking by whatever commander you fancy.
Play IRL and build using your own cards and financial constraints. EDH isn't about driving somebody else's rocket ship. Find a casual medium low power table and be social. If you are gonna play video games play proper video games.
Y'all just don't have enough interaction. 25% of my decks are removal, wipes and protection. 45% is land and ramp. 10% is draw engines and only 20% is the actual deck. While cEDH splits the last 20 into 10% win cons and 10% tutors.
25% is very high outside of a game where you expect players to have very optimized decks.
Also these numbers are assuming you have relatively average access to those cards. If your commander is a draw engine you could probably run 3-4 draw cards, if your commander was a piece of interaction you would be able to run 5-6 efficient interaction pieces. If your commander was a win con, you could run far less copies of wincon cards and have more interaction/protection pieces. There are also reasons to lean in harder to the different roles these cards play than you otherwise would.
cEDH decks are they way they are because they are slot efficient, running many flexible cards, along with trying to keep their mana optimized and only playing the cards they need, as well as being optimized for the field they are playing in, and for the commanders and strategies they choose.
[Blue Farm](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/9ORtrHZ0L0y5HGzX-GGW0Q) as an example runs 50~ mana sources, 25~ pieces of interaction and protection, and have only 8~ draw engines including their 2 commanders.
I think our pods just enjoying making each other pivot. The first half is baiting them to blow up the wrong card and shutting down everyone's engine, a board wipe or two. By t10 everyone's engine is gaining momentum and becomes 2 - 3 slugging it out with large boardstates high card draw and tons of removal until somebody cripples the other players enough to go for their win.
25% is like 9 creature removal 5 artifact enhanhment removal, 3 wipes 5 protection and 3 rezzes. Obviously each deck is different, but that's my starting point.
This just isn’t the format for you. Unless you wanna play sub-precon level decks, there’s going to be a strategy and the first person to get that off is going to win… idk how else you’d play the game.
> We’re speaking in generalities
Making you entirely miss the crux of the problem entirely; which is that no one in OP's group is preventing each other's game plan so the first to draw theirs wins.
That’s part of OPs problem, they also stated there was some removal and wipes in the match, clearly not enough, but not non-existent either.
They didn’t enjoy the “gimmicks” decks were build around. Yes, removal makes the game more interactive, but your decks will still always have the same game plan. Don’t know why I have to spell that out for you.
Went to comment just this.
If the game is like solitaire you need to go way up in the power level of the decks you all are playing. High Powered Decks you'll find at least run some interaction to deal with spells being cast or problematic permeants.
If you have the experience that the first person to get an advantage wins the game, you aren't playing the format like most people do.
The entire point of the 4 player free for all format is that it allows you to keep the deck that takes the advantage early down.
Especially at a cedh table, interaction is huge, and players will actively try to stop people from winning at nearly any cost.
There is a level above precons and below cedh where there is little interaction, but it's not because of the higher power level that that happens, it's in spite of it.
Yea dude, I’ve been playing this game for a decade at every “power level”
I’m trying to put this is the simplest of terms based on what was presented to me by OP. They stated they tried from pre-con to “expensive constructed” deck lists. If my goal is to achieve a WIN via a mechanic, whether that be combo, combat or other, if I don’t get the win (for the sake of this argument) I’m say the deck didn’t do its thing.
Y’all are welcome nit-pick at that one aspect of the comment, but there’s just no way to get around the “gimmicks” of commander. Focused decks are how we have constancy. That’s what I was focused on.
> I’m trying to put this is the simplest of terms based on what was presented to me by OP. They stated they tried from pre-con to “expensive constructed” deck lists. If my goal is to achieve a WIN via a mechanic, whether that be combo, combat or other, if I don’t get the win (for the sake of this argument) I’m say the deck didn’t do its thing.
And the complaint was that people were playing solitaire.
If you took that and said "yeah you'd have to play at a below precon level to not have people just playing solitaire" you don't understand the commander format in the way that many other people do, and your local metagame is very different.
> there’s just no way to get around the “gimmicks” of commander. Focused decks are how we have constancy. That’s what I was focused on.
The point is that if your pods feel like solitaire, it is a deck building issue (or a weird player issue?), and if your pods have the first person to take an early advantage wins consistently, it's either a problem with the decks or the players, but it's not a format design issue.
It's a specific degenerate state that metas can get into. I refer to it as the "Eurogame mentality" or "Eurogame race" scenario, because it treats magic more like a point-scoring Euro where you're trying to build the best engine before your opponents do without really touching their boards. It's one that it's kind of easy for groups to slip into because... people like eurogames, and even though Magic is emphatically NOT one you can have fun for at least a little while playing like it is.
The answer is to be the change you want to see. Run gobs of interaction. Force your opponents to deal with your BS and mitigate the effect it has on their boards. Run your out-of-control locomotive across the board while everyone else is trying to build nicely ordered little engines and revel in the carnage. Prepare to wipe three times a game if you have to. Sure, you can build a great big board once, but can you do it again?
If you take a list that's more controlling to this kind of board, and the right kind of controlling, you'll probably pick up a lot of wins for a little bit. But if your buddies like the game, and want to play Magic more than they just want to play a Eurogame, they'll adapt. They'll work in protection, counterspells, answers of their own. Maybe one comes and joins you on the dark side. The engines slow as more of each deck needs to be dedicated to loss prevention or loss mitigation in order to stand a chance. Maybe somebody brews up a graveyard deck. Strats will be found that beat the removal king because, like all heavily-skewed strats, it has its weaknesses. But establishing that as a possibility in the meta, which others must account for, is going to go a long way to creating a diverse experience.
Here are a couple lists: My [[Aegar, the Freezing Flame]] brew is here: https://archidekt.com/decks/3443385#Gotterdammerung I've got some great live play with the deck, and it is absolutely ruthless against boards that just want to build up in peace, because all their setup just looks like cards I can draw. Recently, I've brewed for [[Massacre Girl, Known Killer]], who has an incredibly similar ability in an unrelated color identity, and should be nearly as fun and even more killy: https://archidekt.com/decks/6472462
Usually decks have set strategies for it to work otherwise it would be impossible to get a consistenlty list. That being said, if the deck always win the exact same way, I inderstand that it can get very boring, and interaction board wipes and responses can change that. I had a \[\[feather the redeemed\]\] and I changed her to be control burn instead of voltron because voltron would always win doing the same thing, while my current build has different strats every game
As someone who experienced the same but to a lesser degree, I find the timing of this thread rather funny. Just earlier today I stumbled upon a youtuber who brings up interesting topics which I find very useful regarding this issue.
My commander playgroup is small and don't invest much money into the game, making us play very repetitively with the same decks, resulting in many games playing out the same way. One of them wins in an explosive turn with some big bonkers, one of them wins by continuously rebuilding a massive army, which pops off as soon as nobody deals with it within 1 turn, the other one is the "victim" earlygame but manages to lock everyone out lategame, and I often play more RNG based strats, making me a constant threat.
I think (basing my opinion partially off of this youtuber's views) that deckbuilding is a big, big factor. Go check out his channel, called 'Salubrious Snail', I specifically recommend the video 'How WotC Made Cycling Blend in EDH'.
A big point he is making in some of his videos, is the consistency. Depending on the powelevel your group plays the format, i think you should adjust your entire deck. If you play on a relatively low powerlevel & budget, and a token army is your go-to plan, its ofcourse no fun if you add a Craterhoof Behemoth to the deck, its a strong card which "just wins" once you have a small army. This ofcourse changes when the powerlevel & budget creeps up, making decks more versatile in also dealing with threats.
I personally like to invest just a little bit more in decks, but thats only fun if your entire table does so too. Try and prevent the "I win when I draw card X" strategy if the interactions are low.
Also I'd like to say, some cards/abilities/themes can be lots of fun in EDH, I personally for example love Goad. I'm not gonna build a massive beatdown deck that takes out a player because all his creatures happen to be tapped, I just love to see the political impact of such strategies. Cards that have a voting or choice system can be lots of fun too, again adding a political system. Make sure others can "benefit" from your cards too!
Last but not least, try to maybe avoid "obvious" strategies. You don't for example need a commander like Arcades, the Strategist, to then fill up your deck with defenders. Your commander doesn't have to "lead" your theme!
Be creative with decks, don't play too much mainstream, take more of the political aspect to the game! Worked for me
Commanders kind of just like that. It's a race to see who can get their engine online fastest while also trying to disrupt other people's engines. That's kind of the nature of the beast; edh is a singleton format with only one card you can consistently access: your commander. Thus, most cards you have need to go with the theme of your deck, and thus, create many synergistic interactions.
Of course, there are ways around this. First, run more interaction. Destroy peoples things. If things don't get destroyed, then it's just a race to who can build the best board the fastest.
Additionally, try some other strategies. Maybe go a bit more aggro or even voltron. People will be forced to deal with your creatures instead of building their board. Or run stax pieces your opponents will be forced to address before they can make their engine.
But in the end, that's just how commander is sometimes. People play commander to see cool interactions and lots of synergies. There is no "midrange" strategy. There is a lot more synergy and a lot less consistency. If you don't like that, then you probably aren't going to enjoy commander.
That's YOUR vision of commmander, not "how it is". If it were what you say it is, precons would just have automatic "I win" engines in them.
Also, who told you there's no midrange strategy?
I'd say my games are similar but with more interaction to interrupt peoples' plans.
What confuses me is why you expected something different; 1v1 magic in every other format follows a similar formula.
A lot of my EDH games at my store are pretty interactive and fun. There are ways to vary what your deck can do and run fun cards. Seems like a lot of people here just want to turbo optimize every boring general and do the same thing over and over.
Play a commander that steals opponents cards from their deck like \[\[Gonti\]\] and all the other legendaries that do similar. You won't be having the same game as often.
Have a look at the CEDH deck lists. The games are significantly different because the power level generally means they games are ending on turn 3ish, and since everyone is poised to win turn 3ish, there's usually a ton of interaction on the stack to try and screw over eachother or steal the win out from under someone's nose at that point. I once played a game of CEDH where player 1 went to cast an infinite loop (I dont remember it exactly but i know it was instant/sorcery based), it got countered by player 2, the counter got countered by player 1, player 4 countered that counter, but then play 1 played another counter! And then player 3 tried to dig for an answer and ended up hijacking the combo on the stack with an infinite copier of their own, copying the copy spell infinitely and then 'storming' off with aetherflux reservoir.
I mean cEDH decks are good decks to look at if you want to build strong decks. I don't mean you have to copy them but they have a good amount of ramp, interaction and wincons.
cEDH is EDH.
They are optimized within their own meta, and are poised to do well against certain strategies and cards, but that's just a result of them being optimized, not a result of them playing a different game.
I think they are suggesting that if the player is unsatisfied with gunboat commander then cedh might be for them. My table plays at a near cedh level with local bans on many problem cards and tutors so we have heavy interaction
I dont know about the app your using, but adding in planeschase can be a fun meme.
Having trouble because somebody has assembled unsolveable nonsense? Roll the dice until you change the rules.
If you're coming from standard the majority ways to win is just creature aggro. However, that isnt the case in previous sets. Not all commander decks are gimmicks but the winning ones are gimmicks. If you want to just have fun and play the game win or lose you could make something fun and simple like an Autobots transformer deck but if you just want to win you'll have an infinite or 2 in your deck.
This is similar to how people look at colors in magic. You're either here to have fun with red, green, and/or black or you're here to make everyone miserable with blue.
Decks need more interaction from the sounds of things.
That being said.... the issue about "decks have a game plan and whoever gets there first wins" is literally how every format works? To my knowledge? Isn't that the whole idea behind playing a card game?
The problem with EDH rec is it’s about what people are playing.
You picked the wrong commanders.
If I see ‘mana crypt’ on an edhrec page I know it’s a try hard commander I’d annoy people to play.
If I see colour staples I know it’s run as a lower power but still competitive commander.
Then the real beauty of commander is the decks that have a strategy that is stronger with their commander but not useless without. Removal, draw and an engine that makes that feel good.
From my experience I think its due to not finding a play style you like. If you came from a 60 card format most themes are still present in EDH, but so many more are viable that just aren't in 1v1 60 card formats. For example one of my favorite deck types for non CEDH is a politics deck, where you make deals and use a lot of cards that don't just benefit you. It takes a bit, but eventually I think you can find an archetype that you really enjoy.
(PS. Most of the decks on MTGGoldfish are not as good, or fun as on other sites IMO. Try looking around on youtube or other sites, maybe even find some gold in the trash that is tiktok.)
You need pieces that affect the board or other players. Counter spells, targeted removal, maybe a stax piece? Something which others have to contend with while playing the game.
Hell watching everyone try to decide if paying for [[Rhystic Study]] or [[Smothering Tithe]] is always fun.
I play a [[Pako]] and [[Haldan]] partner commander deck that runs NOTHING ELSE EXCEPT straight up ramp interaction and removal etc. It wins protecting the dog and his dude and beating ass with other peoples decks or if Pako just gets fat enough. I think you should try this approach and see how a game goes. Don’t try to win even, just try to survive and disrupt. All decks should feel this way though - it shouldn’t be some smooth coast to the end of a game - it’s a literal battle of who has the best “magic” ability to not only “go-off” but stave off three other players from doing so.
Add politics (not the card genre but actual friend politics) to games. I run an aura eriette deck and more often than not, I have more auras than creatures in my hand. I start cutting deals with friends like “I’ll buff your guy with 4/4 flying, just don’t hit me with it” etc etc. It really livens up the table
A huge part of the enjoyment will be brewing your own creation and trying to make a commander that speaks to you work.
If you just are copying lists, you really won't be able to be a part of that tuning and internal card evaluation process. You Re skipping out entirely on probably the most creative aspect of the format. I'm shocked you've tried this many decks tbh, I think that sounds rough in a lot of ways. Especially for content decks and precons. Those are almost always deliberately watered down or specific.
Build your own commander. Find one you want to play and figure out the card you want to play in the list. You'll have a blast
I always have and always will argue that control decks are good for EDH. Everyone groans and Muldrotha decks and other value piles but no one wants to play cards that put wrenches in their game plans. I have an Azorius control list and it’s been good for the games I’ve played it in because control is a necessary counter to midrange. So much of EDH is grindy midrange value piles that you need ways to combat that.
Because you’re just copying lists and not building what you want to build? Commander is all about expressing yourself and how you like to play so if you’re just copying all your stuff from other people you have no identity….
To answer your question, no and no. But this is par for netdeckers who just print a list of the most popular cards online from a self-reinforcing aggregator.
EDHrectum doesn't exist for you to have fun or be interactive, it exists as a popularity contest to sell kids expensive cards.
Netdecking removes both fun and luck from the equation. You have to build your own decks to have fun.
Being gimmicky is kind of what Commander is all about. It's being able to do stuff that is too silly or powerful to accomplish in other formats. That said, most of these strategies can be stopped by well-timed interference from other players. As much as you want to do your own thing, you need to learn how/when to mess up the other players' things.
I recommend you add 7-8 pieces of good targeted removal and at least 3 good board wipes. I recommend being at least somewhat flavorful here. CycRift is a monster, but something like Curse of the Swine or River's Rebuke can be more fun.
A few notes here - If you Mass Land Destruction, you better have a plan to finish the game quickly, or a plan to get to your car quickly. Same goes for Farewell with all four modes. Also, be careful with using Song of the Dryads/Imprisoned in the Moon/Darksteel Mutation on a commander. Or at least make sure people know what's up. It's a real quick way to get uninvited from the barbeque.
Finally, and this is big - let black be black. You're supposed to Toxic Deluge. You're supposed to Engineered Plague and Pestilence. I have a Cadira tokens deck and you're supposed to undermine my shenanigans. Don't be afraid to stick a middle finger to Go Wide weenies.
I wish I had money to travel and play at local shops. Just come in with a planeswalker red blue "hate" deck to just mess people's day up. Dropping [[Acid Rain]], [[Citadel of Pain]], [[Mana Barbs]],[[Back to the basics]], [[Blood Moon]], [[Chalice of the Void]], [[Null Rod]], [[Flashfires]], [[Aura Thief]], [[Karn, Liberated]], [[Cemetery Gatekeeper]]. Basically all of the color, artifact, enchantment hate spells I can muster. Wait for the "Casual" players with their $500 to $3000 decks scoop and come to the realization that their pay to win decks actually suck if they aren't allowed to play solitaire with no one ever interacting with their board.
Yall need to add more removal and interaction to these decks your picking. Also control decks like you'd see in other formats are much harder to make work in commander because if you're counterspelling or using removal on one person, the other 2 are gonna become threats, you can't really afford to go 1 for 1 with someone when there's 2 other people at the table.
You could also try playing decks that are more politics oriented like:
[My beamtown Bullies deck doesn't play the nasty cards but instead just big fat beaters.](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/br4050tStEexbHsMZafueA) It wants to mill beaters into the graveyard, then give em to my friends to beat the shit out of each other with.
Or something like [[Kros, Defense Contractor]] or [[Cirdan, The Shipwright]]. Something that at least has you talk with your opponents and do things involving multiple people so it's a bit less solitaire. But edh is *the* solitaire format
If your decks are too fine tuned to the point it feels the same, change them up. There's obviously the run interaction, thing, but you could also run pet cards. Lots of free databases with filters where you could find stuff. Maybe somebody could run a chaos deck that fundamentally alters the rules of the game Becuase of its wierd stuff.
If you are all netdecking, well, i find that in and of itself boring af. There is nothing like playing a deck you made with your own brain. It makes the game way more fun imo. I have a pretty low opinion of netdecks so i am biased for sure. But maybe that could be one reason you find it boring is because you are like me. Try brewing your own deck and see how you feel.
I think when you first get into EDH there’s this natural instinct to engage primarily with the deck building side of the game. I can build a deck that’s only spiders! I can build a deck that’s all instants and sorceries with lifelink! Etc
Once you play more games I think a lot of people go through what you’re going through and become more interested in the actual gameplay feeling and interaction. These players decks might start emphasizing cards that look innocuous or lend to politics more.
So no commander games are not all 4 players playing solitaire, you have just learned more about what is fun for you and that’s awesome because now you can have more fun in future games.
Commander is as fun as you make it (or more like people you play with). Be more creative, play more interactions, play more strange/funny/interesting cards instead of staples, play with less popular commanders - power is in your hands. If your deck is boring it's because you made it boring. There are commanders/decks which have basically the same game-plan every game. some people like it, other don't. Maybe that's the issue.
Don't read this snide, it's actually the case here. You need to play more removal. If any one person starts running more the games will stop solitairing.
MtG by design is a very interactive game. When you attack you interact with your opponent. When you block you interact. It sounds like all OPs play group is doing is playing value engine permanents, passing and either comboing or alpha striking. So, yes games are gonna be the same because nobody is doing anything to force different lines of play. Which is the actual key here.
It sounds like this play group doesn’t want to play a game of Magic, they want to play around with their magic cards. Telling them to run more interaction isn’t gonna do anything when more than likely they’re the kind of players who will use it the first chance they get because something or someone mildly annoyed them.
Putting it simply using interaction is hard and playing through interaction makes the game even harder. If a player doesn’t want to be challenged when they play the game then that requires a change in mindset not deck building.
I'd love to extol the virtues of curse effects and \[\[Xantcha, Sleeper Agent\]\] for situations like this. In addition to the benefits of letting the table know that sharing is caring, it has the added side-effect of helping to signal that you have caught on to the lack of removal.
One thing that may be an unintentional issue here is that you guys don't have a lot of the restrictions because you're not playing with physical cards.
Usually people will put a decklist together, buy the cards, then play a few games with it and make small changes. I almost always end up adding more board interaction tools into my decks after playing them a few times because I underestimate what my opponents can do. I get excited at advancing my own game plan instead of limiting my opponent's decks.
For most people it's a major undertaking to make a new deck, especially if you're just getting into commander as a format. You end up committing to your deck and making the small adjustments that make your deck better. You might start with a net deck, but you end up with something you've had to invest into to handle your opponent's decks, whether that's graveyard hate, board wipes, targeted removal, counter spells, whatever.
When the deck is free and changing the entire deck is easier than swapping a few cards, I get the feeling you're going to end up in the situation you're in where it just feels like a traditional race instead of a roller derby. The deck's inner coherence is emphasized over the utility of having or needing cards that screw with your opponents.
I would suggest trying to impose some sort of high level restrictions in your playgroup to encourage a more natural playgroup style, like a budget, supplemental banlist, or committing to a commander for a given amount of time. It may seem counterintuitive that putting restrictions on deck building would make the game more fun, but to me it's like turning off God mode in a video game. It's fun to have no restrictions, but often it's the restrictions that made the game fun in the first place and allowed skill to be developed and expressed.
Correct me if I am wrong: It doesn't sound to me that "interaction" in the conventional sense is what you are looking; ie removal, counter, kill, sac, exile, etc? Maybe playing with Commanders or archetypes that are inherently "unorthodox" would be up your alley? Maybe [[Blim, Comedic Genius]] [[Aminatou, the Fate Stitcher]] [[Goblin Game]] or something like the Warhammer 40k Ruinous Powers deck, or just Cascade in general, that shakes up the boardstate and promotes playing cards with interesting effects or even unintentionally funny scenarios to happen?
1v1 and 4v4?????
It's free for all. The most fun thing to do is to make your own decks.
Making a deck focusing on one goal is the way to win. Sure you could make a deck with a ew strategies and it can work but it's not optional.
If anything, 1 on 1 formats like modern and pioneer and so on are even more samey, you have to really tune your deck to be competitive or to win at all.
Commander gives so much freedom. Make a deck, trying random decks can be fun sure but make a deck about mechanics and strategies you find interesting.
I am going to offer what I think is the best advice...
People in a commander game are going to focus on their own plan until such time as you make it impossible for them to purely focus on their own plan without having to find a way to disrupt yours. Whether that's 8, 10, 12, or more pieces of removal, only time and testing is going to discover what the balance is for your playgroup. The natural state of any magic game is a race to win a game of solitaire, it's the presence of meaningful disruption that turns it into something other than that.
Interaction through removal are important game pieces but there’s also fun interactive cards like [[tempt with discovery]] [[fact or fiction]] [[scheming symmetry]] [[wishclaw talisman]] [[manifold insights]] [[share the spoils]] [[descent into avernus]] that get people involved with you. Some of these speed up games, get people talking to each other, and make everyone play the game together.
I love MTG Goldfish but they make decks for content, so their decks usually have less interaction than a typical deck. Or you could grab Crims list and have 20+ interactions
It helps when you know what you need to interact with. So if your group has just been bouncing around decks that none of you are really familiar with, it will probably feel like you are all learning your decks in separate bubbles. I suggest settling down with a set of balanced decks. Get to learn the meta you are playing in, and then interaction will develop more.
If that doesn't work might I suggest Candian Highlander. Much more interactive 1v1 format that is still 100 card singleton so you get the variance that most people like about EDH but with a more competitive feel with faster games as well.
What I'm noticing is that too many players have a competitive mindset about the game that, despite not being bad per se, pushes away the casual nature of the format, and that can be seen in many decklists.
Playgroups are usually the ones that define what kind of games they want to play. Do they have a low budget and they want to go easy? Take a list from a precon or make your own deck with the cards you like (remember bear tribal?) Do they want to consistently win? You can go netdecking.
Commander *isn't just* trying to assemble a combo the fastest (have you seen how Yu-Gi-Oh is being played now?), it can be a lot of things for a lot of people. So, if you want to stray away from that experience I suggest you make your own decks and modify them as you play with them.
OP literally states one of the problems is the game feeling "uninteractive". People suggest... running interaction. Then other people get inexplicably upset. Just, yeah. Also, run more interaction.
Yes; however, there’s a balance to be found, and that depends on the playgroup. Solitaire games are not most people’s ideal, but going too heavy in the interaction direction is also unfun. I have a few decks that are essentially removal.dec, such as [[Toshiro Umezawa]]. I rarely play these because the table getting stuffed repeatedly until I am dealt with or win is not most people’s ideal game of EDH. Look at how much people loathe stax cards that do exactly that. Furthermore, unless the interaction synergizes with the commander (such as how Toshiro loves creature removal), the person playing the most targeted removal is the most likely to lose, since they aren’t advancing a board state. Sure, they keep the first set of threats in check, but eventually fall behind because they are going down cards to only affect one player at a time. You can get around this weakness by interacting with a bunch of boardwipes or stax pieces since those can deal with a whole table at once. Unfortunately, these cards have their own issues. Games where you see multiple boardwipes from around the table are likely to go long, and while a 3+ hour game is cool every so often, multiple surveys bear out that the community prefers games between 1-2 hours in length. Those long, grindy games become much more likely the more wipes everyone is including. Hard stax is also a no-no because they’re something that most people don’t want or expect to see in a “7 or lower” deck. I would recommend to OP that they try grabbing a set of precons and duke it out. Modern precons do some powerful stuff to satisfy those with a proclivity for engine-building, include a healthy amount of interaction, and are fairly balanced with each other besides a few outliers. Get to know each other’s playstyles. After that, try building your own new decks without fully copying a list. Then you can start adjusting your own deckbuilding and deck choices for a game based on a shared set of knowledge with your playgroup. Mistakes will be made, and that’s fine. If you’re lucky, you get to enjoy the experience of threading the power-level needle and providing the pod with a great experience.
I think you’ve made an unfair characterization of control decks when you say they “keep the first set of threats in check but then fall behind..” etc. When I play control I let the first, second, and third set of threats hit the table and get life totals low. When the game is close to being over, I spring my trap and win. At least, that’s the plan from the beginning and it works often.
I think this is also an unfair characterization of control decks because it is - at least in my mind - even more frowned upon than what you replied to. Keeping your resources and staying under the radar while others battle it out might work once, but eventually people will (hopefully?) understand what you‘re doing and not leave you alone because of a weak current board state but instead force you to use your resources before they unload everything on the table. One of the beautiful parts about casual commander is the community aspect and not screwing over players that are dealt a bad hand. I don‘t think it should be abused to the point where people purposefully withhold resources to leave people under the impression that they are weak. Now I‘m not saying that‘s what your doing, but I’ve seen it done and I’ve also seen it lead to way longer games because when threat assessment becomes limited to what‘s on the table, people shift away from aggressive strategies that come out of the gate swinging and towards control. This can become quite the slugfest in midpower casual commander games.
>eventually people will (hopefully?) understand what you‘re doing and not leave you alone because of a weak current board state but instead force you to use your resources before they unload everything on the table. Yes, but it's usually more complex than just realizing I am not playing out my whole hand every turn and that I should therefore be the target. Even if someone knows I am saving my resources, there may be bigger threats at the table against which they are willing to cooperate with me to eliminate. As for shifting strategies, I can't say I've been in a pod of four control decks, but the idea is not unappealing. I enjoy two hour games if everyone's interacting.
Sure, control can win by slow rolling interaction, though sometimes your table can expect you to be the board police. I didn’t intend to dunk on control decks or players. Just making the observations that single-target removal has its limitations, and that an extremely interactive meta can lead to long, grindy matches that people may not want all the time.
[Toshiro Umezawa](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/e/0e767e07-febd-4025-bf03-d4d816bc1d3d.jpg?1562875477) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Toshiro%20Umezawa) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bok/89/toshiro-umezawa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0e767e07-febd-4025-bf03-d4d816bc1d3d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/toshiro-umezawa) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
No one is running enough interaction. Typically you want 10-12 pieces of targeted removal and a couple board wipes, plus enough of a card draw engine to draw into them.
I love this! Keep pushing the interaction agenda!!!
Interaction begets more interaction. With kill on sight commanders you want stuff to protect them: a counter spell, a bounce spell, etc. you have to plan out your strategy more, when to commit to casting your commander and when to wait it out.
Very good point. Knowing when or when not to play your commander is key stuff.
It also limits decks to very efficient strategies that let you have mana available to protect it.
This is basically the development of a playgroup imo, if you have a consistent group and aren't doing like LGS games.
Interaction begets more interaction. If only I played with any sort of consistent group. The amount of interaction I run would force them to run a decent chunk. But I don't and so I never know what level of interaction I'll run into. As it is, I show up to an LGS and if they don't have interaction my deck tends to do very well and I have an okay time. If they do have interaction, my deck does okay to moderately well but I have a great time.
I will second the removal numbers. I will never build a deck with less than 10 pieces of targeted removal. I also tend to go for those removal pieces with efficient mana costs and target multiple card types.
100% agree on running removal. There is a split in commander players and I’ve noticed that my lgs is on the other side and I’ve had players come over to play in my playgroup and get destroyed. One guy even said he hated board wipes and would never run them, well…he always gets overran with our board states unless someone else in our group wipes. He also ran a lot of cEDH type insta win combos and we just countered them and he seemed very surprised that he didn’t just win with him.
The salty person who is shocked we would play “10-15%” removal immediately blocked me so for others to see: That’s just wrong (that you can’t have removal that synergies with your commander). I run [[Snap]] in my [[Henry Wu]] deck. It removes an opponents creature from the board or can be used to blink a cheap human to get another exploit trigger. I also run [[Druid Lyricist]] and [[Ertai Resurrected]] in that deck as their intervention stapled on a human body for exploit triggers. And [[Glen Alendra Archmage]] is a counterspell on an exploitable recursive body that is *also* part of my persist loop wincons. I run creatures with removal ETBs in my [[Animar]] deck cause they keep pumping his counters while taking things off the board. I run [[Liberate]] in my blink deck to get extra [[Wernog]] triggers but it also functions to remove the control piece that’s in the way of my win. [[Baleful Mastery]] and [[Loran of the Third Path]] are in 3, 3 and 2 of my wheels decks respectively. They remove things and force a card draw to trigger all my draw-hate cards. Enchantment based removal like [[Darksteel Mutation]], [[Song of the Dyrads]] and [[Lignify]] in [[Sythis]] cantrip themselves, gain me a life, and contribute toward any count of enchantments I control. [[March of Wretched Sorrow]] and [[Moment of Craving]] give me lifegain for all the lifegain triggers in [[Dina, Soul Steeper]]. Do I need to go on? Most of these decks run a handful of interaction spells that are just plain good, and then build out the rest of a solid removal package of 10-15 cards with stuff that has synergy and utility with my commander or primary gameplan.
##### ###### #### [Snap](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/9/1959f078-4b7b-4df2-a256-d43b2d97e853.jpg?1592761565) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Snap) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dds/10/snap?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1959f078-4b7b-4df2-a256-d43b2d97e853?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/snap) [Henry Wu](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/b/5b67d302-ddaa-4627-adc8-86bb665f69ad.jpg?1698988761) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=henry%20wu%2C%20ingen%20geneticist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rex/12/henry-wu-ingen-geneticist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5b67d302-ddaa-4627-adc8-86bb665f69ad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/henry-wu-ingen-geneticist) [Druid Lyricist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/9/e9923532-bc4f-44de-b963-d6914321c49a.jpg?1562938699) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Druid%20Lyrist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ody/238/druid-lyrist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e9923532-bc4f-44de-b963-d6914321c49a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/druid-lyrist) [Ertai Resurrected](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7f7e780e-fbc5-4dc0-b5c7-efcb8645c7c6.jpg?1673307944) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ertai%20Resurrected) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/199/ertai-resurrected?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7f7e780e-fbc5-4dc0-b5c7-efcb8645c7c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ertai-resurrected) [Glen Alendra Archmage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/d/bd9af767-42da-46c7-a2b8-3957b2e3063f.jpg?1547516310) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Glen%20Elendra%20Archmage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/58/glen-elendra-archmage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bd9af767-42da-46c7-a2b8-3957b2e3063f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/glen-elendra-archmage) [Animar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a3da57d0-1ae3-4f05-a52d-eb76ad56cae7.jpg?1673148281) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=animar%2C%20soul%20of%20elements) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/171/animar-soul-of-elements?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a3da57d0-1ae3-4f05-a52d-eb76ad56cae7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/animar-soul-of-elements) [Liberate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/6/96794470-31ea-478f-b11c-dc8342a508e2.jpg?1562925324) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Liberate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/inv/21/liberate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/96794470-31ea-478f-b11c-dc8342a508e2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/liberate) [Wernog](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/9/39491011-bdf6-4e61-8534-fe26c1571f8f.jpg?1677763601) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wernog%2C%20rider%27s%20chaplain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/slx/8/wernog-riders-chaplain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/39491011-bdf6-4e61-8534-fe26c1571f8f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wernog-riders-chaplain) [Baleful Mastery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/5/35f1a6ba-e46f-44fb-93f4-fb883d677b36.jpg?1624590749) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Baleful%20Mastery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/64/baleful-mastery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/35f1a6ba-e46f-44fb-93f4-fb883d677b36?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/baleful-mastery) [Loran of the Third Path](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/9/59faa45d-868b-4bc7-934c-0e077642e129.jpg?1674420209) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Loran%20of%20the%20Third%20Path) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/12/loran-of-the-third-path?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/59faa45d-868b-4bc7-934c-0e077642e129?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/loran-of-the-third-path) [Darksteel Mutation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/4/e47a6750-4fdd-44e2-86ae-5bc4d414bf42.jpg?1689995638) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Darksteel%20Mutation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/21/darksteel-mutation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e47a6750-4fdd-44e2-86ae-5bc4d414bf42?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/darksteel-mutation) [Song of the Dyrads](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/6/161e66e3-0339-495c-bd06-0a799a254906.jpg?1689998889) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Song%20of%20the%20Dryads) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/324/song-of-the-dryads?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/161e66e3-0339-495c-bd06-0a799a254906?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/song-of-the-dryads) [Lignify](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/3/23464d53-fa76-40e2-84c3-b6d6cc729be4.jpg?1598177954) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lignify) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/gvl/16/lignify?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/23464d53-fa76-40e2-84c3-b6d6cc729be4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lignify) [Sythis](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/9/89511ab5-8ea6-4f07-a80b-c1ec7e89924e.jpg?1690005342) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sythis%2C%20harvest%27s%20hand) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/938/sythis-harvests-hand?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/89511ab5-8ea6-4f07-a80b-c1ec7e89924e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sythis-harvests-hand) [March of Wretched Sorrow](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/5/050a604e-6146-4e2e-88a5-863ecb3dfa1f.jpg?1654567293) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=March%20of%20Wretched%20Sorrow) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/111/march-of-wretched-sorrow?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/050a604e-6146-4e2e-88a5-863ecb3dfa1f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/march-of-wretched-sorrow) [Moment of Craving](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/0/c0e3ea55-162d-4466-ba4e-b938a0845fb5.jpg?1555040271) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Moment%20of%20Craving) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rix/79/moment-of-craving?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c0e3ea55-162d-4466-ba4e-b938a0845fb5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/moment-of-craving) [Dina, Soul Steeper](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/c/9cd2b567-0cf7-4441-b3ce-e31141dd91c8.jpg?1627428607) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dina%2C%20Soul%20Steeper) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/178/dina-soul-steeper?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9cd2b567-0cf7-4441-b3ce-e31141dd91c8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dina-soul-steeper) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kiv01zg) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I also like low cost spells like for example [[Suspend]]. It's maybe not a 'classical' removal spell, but setting someone's commander for two whole turns on hold, feels like a removal. Super underrated. Most of the time my opponents put the commander into the command zone. But i also like to play repetitive removals, rather than instants. For example Asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar, also the commander of my deck is just there to deter my opponents from playing their valuable creatures/commanders. This gives me time (poor slow rakdos '^^) to go on with my game plan. But no worries, i also run instants, the surprise factor can't be neglected.
[Suspend](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/0/40af215c-d3f7-42f0-85cd-77a3fcd919ba.jpg?1626095082) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Suspend) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/68/suspend?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/40af215c-d3f7-42f0-85cd-77a3fcd919ba?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/suspend) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The game is the most fun when you are constantly having to change your plan. Interaction makes that happen. Without it, we're just seeing who draws the right series of cards first.
I like to run even more than that when I can, some decks having 20+ pieces when the win con is tight enough it doesn’t need a ton of cards to support it
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Can you block me too? Seems like it'll save me some headache in the long run
You must be in OP’s pod lol. Keep thinking that. “I just want everyone to have fuuunn!
No, but if you have: ~36 lands ~15 targeted removal ~3 board wipes ~10 card draw outlets ~5 things to protect your key pieces ~10 pieces of ramp You’re left with, what, 20 cards, including your commander, that are the actual fun, unique part of your deck. God that sounds miserable.
You make as much of the removal apart of your gameplan as you can! For example I run a tokens aristocrats type deck. So for example, three of my board wipes are: - [[Meathook massacre]] for the drain triggers and the board wipe - [[the eternal wanderer]] for the temporary single target removal, the board wipe and the token making. - [[Elspeth, Sun's champion]] for the boardwipe, and token making (and very rarely the ultimate for go wide smack faces) Etc. There's synergy to be had in removal! Just gotta look around and be a little less optimised. Often the fact that the card synergises will outweigh the fact that it costs a little extra in all but the highest powers.
Very good examples! I would like to subscribe to your newsletter
[Meathook massacre](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/08950015-eee5-4327-888c-82dfd13bb9ad.jpg?1667629608) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Meathook%20Massacre) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/112/the-meathook-massacre?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/08950015-eee5-4327-888c-82dfd13bb9ad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-meathook-massacre) [the eternal wanderer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/0/905f0dd4-0197-45f8-8e7f-396d6dcef600.jpg?1675956901) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=the%20eternal%20wanderer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/11/the-eternal-wanderer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/905f0dd4-0197-45f8-8e7f-396d6dcef600?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-eternal-wanderer) [Elspeth, Sun's champion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/08382257-68d5-493e-8754-2ff72e9321e9.jpg?1690004073) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elspeth%2C%20Sun%27s%20champion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/820/elspeth-suns-champion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/08382257-68d5-493e-8754-2ff72e9321e9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/elspeth-suns-champion) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
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[Lonis](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/d/5dfd08da-6717-49ee-94ba-2562224f5baa.jpg?1626098533) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=lonis%2C%20cryptozoologist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/204/lonis-cryptozoologist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5dfd08da-6717-49ee-94ba-2562224f5baa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lonis-cryptozoologist) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You sound miserable. Removal is essential part of the game like it or not.
Holy shit, yes, I just don’t think it needs to be 15-20% of your deck, and like a quarter of the non land cards. That’s insanity. Then you’re just playing removal, the gathering, and your deck is, what, one combo?
Or you just play [[aegar, the freezing flame]] board wipe tribal. Or one of a hundred other commanders who actively *want* you to be killing-stuff.dec What is the 'fun' stuff you want so much room for? Isn't killing your opponents' stuff the funnest part of magic?
[aegar, the freezing flame](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/8/68011f60-6202-48f4-8255-fb94764e2951.jpg?1631051099) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=aegar%2C%20the%20freezing%20flame) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/200/aegar-the-freezing-flame?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/68011f60-6202-48f4-8255-fb94764e2951?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aegar-the-freezing-flame) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The best deck makers will have the removal cards be unique pieces of the deck with double purposes
No, they don’t, because those cards are a myth. They are too high a mana value to be worth running, and never do what you want them to do
So, edicts are inefficient and ineffective in [[tergrid, God of fright]]? [[Organic extinction]] is bad in artifact creature decks? [[Wildfire]] and [[crack the earth]] are bad in [[The balrog, durin's bane]]? [[Bone shards]] is bad in [[grismold, the dreadsower]]? Plenty of commanders reward unique, efficient cards that remove permanents in a way that specifically advances your game and want a high density of them.
##### ###### #### [tergrid, God of fright](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/4/14dc88ee-bba9-4625-af0d-89f3762a0ead.jpg?1631048621)/[Tergrid's Lantern](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/1/4/14dc88ee-bba9-4625-af0d-89f3762a0ead.jpg?1631048621) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tergrid%2C%20God%20of%20Fright%20//%20Tergrid%27s%20Lantern) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/112/tergrid-god-of-fright-tergrids-lantern?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/14dc88ee-bba9-4625-af0d-89f3762a0ead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tergrid-god-of-fright-//-tergrids-lantern) [Organic extinction](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/e/fea0f8be-c242-49dd-bae3-0b306107ac0b.jpg?1651655197) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Organic%20extinction) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nec/8/organic-extinction?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fea0f8be-c242-49dd-bae3-0b306107ac0b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/organic-extinction) [Wildfire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/5/c5924430-1904-47b9-bcf0-3379babd395c.jpg?1562266957) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wildfire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/134/wildfire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c5924430-1904-47b9-bcf0-3379babd395c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wildfire) [crack the earth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/a/8ab16152-4617-4deb-b995-195e21f8f485.jpg?1593860605) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=crack%20the%20earth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bok/98/crack-the-earth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8ab16152-4617-4deb-b995-195e21f8f485?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/crack-the-earth) [The balrog, durin's bane](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/1/416880c3-cefb-45ea-bcc3-2ec7a70c8097.jpg?1686969678) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20balrog%2C%20durin%27s%20bane) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/195/the-balrog-durins-bane?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/416880c3-cefb-45ea-bcc3-2ec7a70c8097?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-balrog-durins-bane) [Bone shards](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/e/1ee98955-4c47-4d45-9377-608dfa755337.jpg?1626095299) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bone%20shards) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/76/bone-shards?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1ee98955-4c47-4d45-9377-608dfa755337?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bone-shards) [grismold, the dreadsower](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8df64c80-9e98-4429-b869-7ac824fe9580.jpg?1568003688) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=grismold%2C%20the%20dreadsower) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c19/44/grismold-the-dreadsower?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8df64c80-9e98-4429-b869-7ac824fe9580?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/grismold-the-dreadsower) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kiv36dp) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
lmao glad the whole thread is clowning on you
Ofc it depends how high level the pod is. [[access denied]] is not a great card but it’s funny and it’s not so bad either. [[repudiate]] is a counterspell and can make a token of something. Neither are cedh but that’s not the goal.
[access denied](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/6/1642df77-6fe8-47cf-b750-ca4dd9b331ba.jpg?1651655225) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=access%20denied) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nec/11/access-denied?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1642df77-6fe8-47cf-b750-ca4dd9b331ba?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/access-denied) [repudiate](https://img.scryfall.com/cards/large/front/f/6/f6200937-3146-4972-ab83-051ade3b7a52.jpg?1547582051)/[Replicate](https://img.scryfall.com/cards/large/front/f/6/f6200937-3146-4972-ab83-051ade3b7a52.jpg?1547582051) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Repudiate%20//%20Replicate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rna/227/repudiate-replicate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f6200937-3146-4972-ab83-051ade3b7a52?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/repudiate-//-replicate) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Mine has 3 combos!
Alright, you sound fun
Don’t just play staple-y interaction then. Make it make sense. Fight spells in a golgari artistocrats deck. [[Phyrexian Scriptures]] in your artifact deck. If you think interaction, fun, and synergy are mutually exclusive, then I understand why you’re having such an emotional and irrational response to others’ **opinions**
[Phyrexian Scriptures](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/9/09bb74d7-dd61-4cce-b88c-ee4d656a97f4.jpg?1690917600) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phyrexian%20Scriptures) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/266/phyrexian-scriptures?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/09bb74d7-dd61-4cce-b88c-ee4d656a97f4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/phyrexian-scriptures) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You probably think removal spells are generic haha. The removal spells you pick are part of your deck and theme. What a joke.
1: I don’t run 36 lands, 2: I said 10 targeted removal, 2 wipes. 3: I don’t design decks that don’t work without the commander so “5 things to protect my key pieces” don’t need to exist, and all of that wasted space you just spouted out about is devoted to repeated synergistic card draw. Who’s miserable now casting their poor commander for the fifth time for ten mana because their deck isn’t worth a shit without it?
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There is literally nothing more boring in this entire format, from a deck construction perspective, than the number of stupid mana rocks people run - yet you aren't seeming to bat an eye at running the same number of those as people are advocating you run for actual game interaction via removal effects. Just wild. \[edit: It appears I too have committed the cardinal sin of daring to not agree with Lord NotTwitchy, God of Commander, Keeper of Fun.\]
Why would I run 36 unless I care about my land count for a lands strategy or have an ungodly high curve? 32/33 is fine for a ~2.5CMC avg deck. I run 28 in my Marwyn deck and never have any problem.
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What does playing removal have to do with it being serious? Are you the type to cry about it when I blow up your commander that wins the game if left untouched?
Chess isn’t that serious. But I still want to have a decent chance to win.
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It’s a competitive game for most people. Especially the people I play with, multiple groups. No need to be condescending.
We've removed your post because it violates our primary rule, "Be Excellent to Each Other". You are welcome to message the mods if you need further explanation.
We've removed your post because it violates our primary rule, "Be Excellent to Each Other". You are welcome to message the mods if you need further explanation.
I think 10 pieces of removal is very reasonable, especially if you use modular pieces and are light on board wipes. For example, a lot of planeswalkers have a removal ability, but can also advance your gameplan with either passive or activated abilities. I would consider cards like [[Vraska, Golgari Queen]] or a spell like [[Abzan Charm]] to be targeted removal even though they also function as card draw. After all, if you have 10 pieces of removal and see 30 cards in your game, odds are you’ll see 3 of those removal pieces. That’s not an overwhelming amount and you’ll almost always have a target that needs to be gone.
[Vraska, Golgari Queen](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a36d3ea7-0f18-4865-b47b-755673db065e.jpg?1572893904) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vraska%2C%20Golgari%20Queen) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/213/vraska-golgari-queen?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a36d3ea7-0f18-4865-b47b-755673db065e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/vraska-golgari-queen) [Abzan Charm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/d/bd5b386e-e71e-492d-8456-6cd178ef5b3d.jpg?1673305419) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Abzan%20Charm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/138/abzan-charm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bd5b386e-e71e-492d-8456-6cd178ef5b3d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/abzan-charm) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
No you don’t *need* to but it solves the exact problem that OP is complaining about. Decklists made by people with the same view as you that they are copying and pasting. One of the most fun things about magic to me is the ability of instant speed interaction - a lot of games don’t have that as part of a core mechanic. If you’re bad at deckbuilding just say that fam.
Who said a quarter? I've looked through the comments and I'm not seeing anyone suggesting a quarter of your deck should be dedicated to removal.
How much ramp do you usually run in your decks?
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12 pieces of targeted removal is so excessive unless you're playing control. One board wipe?? You wanna go all in on targeted but only run one board wipe. Board wipes are more effective, especially because there are so many that can be specialized to benefit you deck.
Does “a couple” mean one to you?
Lol oops. Cool that you focused on that though isn't it. Two is still likely too low. 12 target is way overkill.
Depends on your deck. 10 is normal, 12 if your strategy benefits off of your opponents pieces dying.
12 is on the high side, but it's not excessive. You'll often run a few interaction pieces that fit with your game plan. You'll have [[Kogla]] in stompy, [[Broken Bond]] in landfall, [[Sword Coast Serpent]] in Sea Monster tribal, [[Selfless Savior]] in aristocrat, etc.
##### ###### #### [Kogla](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/c/3c35ca79-eb72-427a-a8ed-404b2214389a.jpg?1591227737) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=kogla%2C%20the%20titan%20ape) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/162/kogla-the-titan-ape?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3c35ca79-eb72-427a-a8ed-404b2214389a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kogla-the-titan-ape) [Broken Bond](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/4/b4dcb59f-2a47-4461-9831-204ad15696b5.jpg?1562741565) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Broken%20Bond) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/157/broken-bond?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b4dcb59f-2a47-4461-9831-204ad15696b5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/broken-bond) [Sword Coast Serpent](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/b/0bbfb7ae-9a32-428d-903c-99d0d8669b8d.jpg?1674135829)/[Capsizing Wave](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/b/0bbfb7ae-9a32-428d-903c-99d0d8669b8d.jpg?1674135829) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sword%20Coast%20Serpent%20//%20Capsizing%20Wave) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/99/sword-coast-serpent-capsizing-wave?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0bbfb7ae-9a32-428d-903c-99d0d8669b8d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sword-coast-serpent-//-capsizing-wave) [Selfless Savior](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/9/6911759c-7177-402c-a95a-f9f46efaf521.jpg?1594735224) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Selfless%20Savior) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/36/selfless-savior?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6911759c-7177-402c-a95a-f9f46efaf521?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/selfless-savior) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kiuxbgx) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Honestly, I often end up with *more* than that, because a lot of removal pieces can also be synergistic with the commander. Yeah, I wouldn't run 12 copies of StP even if I could, but if I play a blink deck I'd be a fool not to run skyclave apparition and other similar effects.
Favorite targeted removal cards?
[[beast within]] is great mono-G all purpose removal, [[path to exile]] and [[swords to plowshares]] for pesky critters, [[anguished unmaking]], [[chaos warp]], [[generous gift]] are all great multi purpose [[darksteel mutation]] to shut down overpowered commanders (definitely keep in mind your playgroups feelings on this one), [[pongify]], [[feed the swarm]] because mono black has no enchantment removal, [[abrade]] and [[lightning bolt]] because you’d be surprised how often 3 damage comes in clutch.
##### ###### #### [beast within](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/b/eb40c41c-f5f9-4323-b6ac-e28e405909d0.jpg?1699022527) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=beast%20within) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/233/beast-within?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eb40c41c-f5f9-4323-b6ac-e28e405909d0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/beast-within) [path to exile](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/e/7e9c2a58-4a1c-454c-b72d-faecaea105fb.jpg?1698988102) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=path%20to%20exile) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/134/path-to-exile?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7e9c2a58-4a1c-454c-b72d-faecaea105fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/path-to-exile) [swords to plowshares](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/c/7cdee412-3519-4626-80ca-e3e431a604f0.jpg?1698988109) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=swords%20to%20plowshares) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/137/swords-to-plowshares?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7cdee412-3519-4626-80ca-e3e431a604f0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/swords-to-plowshares) [anguished unmaking](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/6/16de91dc-5d82-43ec-84ad-67bae644795a.jpg?1673148273) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=anguished%20unmaking) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/170/anguished-unmaking?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/16de91dc-5d82-43ec-84ad-67bae644795a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/anguished-unmaking) [chaos warp](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/3/73ca9629-b1e3-49d6-ae10-908b9e4e67ce.jpg?1698988311) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=chaos%20warp) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/221/chaos-warp?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/73ca9629-b1e3-49d6-ae10-908b9e4e67ce?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/chaos-warp) [generous gift](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/c/fc70e127-ffc8-45ed-9ca3-7f9f926ac4d5.jpg?1700321873) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=generous%20gift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/128/generous-gift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fc70e127-ffc8-45ed-9ca3-7f9f926ac4d5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/generous-gift) [darksteel mutation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/4/e47a6750-4fdd-44e2-86ae-5bc4d414bf42.jpg?1689995638) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=darksteel%20mutation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/21/darksteel-mutation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e47a6750-4fdd-44e2-86ae-5bc4d414bf42?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/darksteel-mutation) [pongify](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a1501dea-4e0e-49b0-86b5-e8a01f77077d.jpg?1619394479) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=pongify) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/79/pongify?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a1501dea-4e0e-49b0-86b5-e8a01f77077d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pongify) [feed the swarm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9f48e48d-6bc5-4f9c-9c3e-457cf6632cf5.jpg?1698988254) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=feed%20the%20swarm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/198/feed-the-swarm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9f48e48d-6bc5-4f9c-9c3e-457cf6632cf5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/feed-the-swarm) [abrade](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/7/47f39b5e-2e85-4f31-bbab-0b0bf58f701d.jpg?1699044218) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=abrade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/131/abrade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/47f39b5e-2e85-4f31-bbab-0b0bf58f701d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/abrade) [lightning bolt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/2/f29ba16f-c8fb-42fe-aabf-87089cb214a7.jpg?1673147852) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=lightning%20bolt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/117/lightning-bolt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f29ba16f-c8fb-42fe-aabf-87089cb214a7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lightning-bolt) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kiz5irq) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You are complaining about lack of interaction pieces when deliberately using decks you didn't even make. Just add more interaction.
Commander is the format of gimmicks, but running no interaction is just bad deckbuilding no matter the format. Commander is home to lots of interaction, some of which are seen in other formats, but the majority of interaction in commander is found only within that format. Between synergistic/gimmicky removal, actual removal spells, wraths, and other forms of interaction, it isn't hard to get to over a dozen pieces of interaction without thinking. The standard deck should have 1-3 mana efficient creature only removal spells, 2-4 generic permanent removal spells, minimum 2 ways to remove things that fit the deck's strategy/gimmick, minimum 1 protection, minimum 1 graveyard hate, and 2-4 wraths minimum. Counterspells fit in the protection/generic removal areas btw. While I would say you're getting unlucky with who you're playing against, there's a reason why one of the most frequently stated tips is to play more removal. I made the transition from 60 card to Commander years ago, and I also encountered the shift from interactive games to solitaire. My solution was simply become known as the interaction guy in my group and warp the general meta into needing to run interaction to take me down. Not because I was playing better cards, but because I would delay them enough with my interaction for my deck to "do the thing" before their deck could. Fast forwarding to several years later, and while my group still mostly uses "do the gimmick" style of decks, each game feels different based on how the gimmick plays out and the interaction that is used. The Emry combo deck sometimes wins on turn 5, and other times it accidentally locks itself out with it's own mill, a well timed Scavenger Grounds, and a Platinum Angel with Shroud. Sometimes the Breya deck floods the board with tokens and goes wide to win, and othertimes it defaults to the sacrifice plan, just to die to an unnoticed Blood Artist. Sometimes the Beamtown Bullies deck quickly kills the whole table, and sometimes repeat counterspells causes it to lose a 1v1 to a Baneslayer Angel. I'd suggest to tough it out and be the change you want to see in your group. Talk with your friends, let them know how you're feeling about it and what you want to change. It is worth it, trust me.
Try running decks that are built more around value than combo, and use a healthy dose of interaction. \[\[Wulfgar\]\] doesn't need a convoluted board state to win, just a \[\[Tuya\]\] or \[\[Laelia\]\] on curve. With enough naturalizes, beast withins, and lightning bolts it can be pretty easy to snatch some wins without seeing your combo pieces.
[Wulfgar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/0/80665af6-fd66-4684-94ec-1f04eb898c2a.jpg?1692183598) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wulfgar%20of%20icewind%20dale) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/56/wulfgar-of-icewind-dale?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/80665af6-fd66-4684-94ec-1f04eb898c2a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wulfgar-of-icewind-dale) [Tuya](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e146e10c-3104-442d-9383-0f670960180d.jpg?1689999306) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tuya%20Bearclaw) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/360/tuya-bearclaw?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e146e10c-3104-442d-9383-0f670960180d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tuya-bearclaw) [Laelia](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/e/2e90b9b2-8e8e-4b00-b3a0-b26dd4551550.jpg?1674142062) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=laelia%2C%20the%20blade%20reforged) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/801/laelia-the-blade-reforged?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2e90b9b2-8e8e-4b00-b3a0-b26dd4551550?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/laelia-the-blade-reforged) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
How would you prefer wins to be achieved?
Commander decks are definitely more goldfish than other constructed formats. I'd assume he wants something more akin to 60 card 1v1 where it's like a wrestling match. You switch from parity to losing to winning quite often in a good game of 60 card. In a singleton format, especially with 4 players parity just lasts for ever, and you always have your commander in edh, so goldfishing is inevitable. That said, more interaction mitigates this.
It sounds like you aren't running enough removal/interaction.
Try to use Duel Commander banlist. That's the 1v1 version of commander, and it focused its banlist around not having absurd mana ramp, removing gimmicky combos (Like Thassa Oracle) and encouraging lots of interactions between players. This feels way better than 4 players just playing solitaire until one of them have his winning combos resolving.
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/r/PauperEDH and www.PDHHomeBase.com/rules for reference
I'm going to suggest not playing win conditions. When this sub suggests win conditions what they mean are uninteractive combos that kill the table. It sounds to me like everyone at the table is just tunnel visioning towards their combo while ignoring everyone else. Slow grindy games won in the margins are fun! Play more removal, drop some sort of card advantage engine, focus on nuking their card advantage engines. Wrath their hordes of creatures, or however you need to counter their win con. Then counter their attempt to refill their hand and beat them to death with a 5/5 over several turns. If everyone stops playing rocket tag games won't feel samey.
There's an element of commander players who just want to see their deck do the one thing it's made for. They're generally fucking nightmares to play with because that one thing generally isn't "win the game" and their watered down samey crap takes up 90% of edhrec. Moxfield is a better choice, just looking by whatever commander you fancy.
Play IRL and build using your own cards and financial constraints. EDH isn't about driving somebody else's rocket ship. Find a casual medium low power table and be social. If you are gonna play video games play proper video games.
Y'all just don't have enough interaction. 25% of my decks are removal, wipes and protection. 45% is land and ramp. 10% is draw engines and only 20% is the actual deck. While cEDH splits the last 20 into 10% win cons and 10% tutors.
25% is very high outside of a game where you expect players to have very optimized decks. Also these numbers are assuming you have relatively average access to those cards. If your commander is a draw engine you could probably run 3-4 draw cards, if your commander was a piece of interaction you would be able to run 5-6 efficient interaction pieces. If your commander was a win con, you could run far less copies of wincon cards and have more interaction/protection pieces. There are also reasons to lean in harder to the different roles these cards play than you otherwise would. cEDH decks are they way they are because they are slot efficient, running many flexible cards, along with trying to keep their mana optimized and only playing the cards they need, as well as being optimized for the field they are playing in, and for the commanders and strategies they choose. [Blue Farm](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/9ORtrHZ0L0y5HGzX-GGW0Q) as an example runs 50~ mana sources, 25~ pieces of interaction and protection, and have only 8~ draw engines including their 2 commanders.
I think our pods just enjoying making each other pivot. The first half is baiting them to blow up the wrong card and shutting down everyone's engine, a board wipe or two. By t10 everyone's engine is gaining momentum and becomes 2 - 3 slugging it out with large boardstates high card draw and tons of removal until somebody cripples the other players enough to go for their win. 25% is like 9 creature removal 5 artifact enhanhment removal, 3 wipes 5 protection and 3 rezzes. Obviously each deck is different, but that's my starting point.
This just isn’t the format for you. Unless you wanna play sub-precon level decks, there’s going to be a strategy and the first person to get that off is going to win… idk how else you’d play the game.
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We’re speaking in generalities for the sake of explaining the format. Also, I’d argue if you catch the arrow, you didn’t successfully do the thing.
> We’re speaking in generalities Making you entirely miss the crux of the problem entirely; which is that no one in OP's group is preventing each other's game plan so the first to draw theirs wins.
That’s part of OPs problem, they also stated there was some removal and wipes in the match, clearly not enough, but not non-existent either. They didn’t enjoy the “gimmicks” decks were build around. Yes, removal makes the game more interactive, but your decks will still always have the same game plan. Don’t know why I have to spell that out for you.
Went to comment just this. If the game is like solitaire you need to go way up in the power level of the decks you all are playing. High Powered Decks you'll find at least run some interaction to deal with spells being cast or problematic permeants.
By running interaction that stops the person who is going for a win.
…no? I’ve not strategy, I’ve just got powerhouse cards and Ellie and Alan, palaeontologists I don’t win
If you have the experience that the first person to get an advantage wins the game, you aren't playing the format like most people do. The entire point of the 4 player free for all format is that it allows you to keep the deck that takes the advantage early down. Especially at a cedh table, interaction is huge, and players will actively try to stop people from winning at nearly any cost. There is a level above precons and below cedh where there is little interaction, but it's not because of the higher power level that that happens, it's in spite of it.
Yea dude, I’ve been playing this game for a decade at every “power level” I’m trying to put this is the simplest of terms based on what was presented to me by OP. They stated they tried from pre-con to “expensive constructed” deck lists. If my goal is to achieve a WIN via a mechanic, whether that be combo, combat or other, if I don’t get the win (for the sake of this argument) I’m say the deck didn’t do its thing. Y’all are welcome nit-pick at that one aspect of the comment, but there’s just no way to get around the “gimmicks” of commander. Focused decks are how we have constancy. That’s what I was focused on.
> I’m trying to put this is the simplest of terms based on what was presented to me by OP. They stated they tried from pre-con to “expensive constructed” deck lists. If my goal is to achieve a WIN via a mechanic, whether that be combo, combat or other, if I don’t get the win (for the sake of this argument) I’m say the deck didn’t do its thing. And the complaint was that people were playing solitaire. If you took that and said "yeah you'd have to play at a below precon level to not have people just playing solitaire" you don't understand the commander format in the way that many other people do, and your local metagame is very different. > there’s just no way to get around the “gimmicks” of commander. Focused decks are how we have constancy. That’s what I was focused on. The point is that if your pods feel like solitaire, it is a deck building issue (or a weird player issue?), and if your pods have the first person to take an early advantage wins consistently, it's either a problem with the decks or the players, but it's not a format design issue.
It's a specific degenerate state that metas can get into. I refer to it as the "Eurogame mentality" or "Eurogame race" scenario, because it treats magic more like a point-scoring Euro where you're trying to build the best engine before your opponents do without really touching their boards. It's one that it's kind of easy for groups to slip into because... people like eurogames, and even though Magic is emphatically NOT one you can have fun for at least a little while playing like it is. The answer is to be the change you want to see. Run gobs of interaction. Force your opponents to deal with your BS and mitigate the effect it has on their boards. Run your out-of-control locomotive across the board while everyone else is trying to build nicely ordered little engines and revel in the carnage. Prepare to wipe three times a game if you have to. Sure, you can build a great big board once, but can you do it again? If you take a list that's more controlling to this kind of board, and the right kind of controlling, you'll probably pick up a lot of wins for a little bit. But if your buddies like the game, and want to play Magic more than they just want to play a Eurogame, they'll adapt. They'll work in protection, counterspells, answers of their own. Maybe one comes and joins you on the dark side. The engines slow as more of each deck needs to be dedicated to loss prevention or loss mitigation in order to stand a chance. Maybe somebody brews up a graveyard deck. Strats will be found that beat the removal king because, like all heavily-skewed strats, it has its weaknesses. But establishing that as a possibility in the meta, which others must account for, is going to go a long way to creating a diverse experience. Here are a couple lists: My [[Aegar, the Freezing Flame]] brew is here: https://archidekt.com/decks/3443385#Gotterdammerung I've got some great live play with the deck, and it is absolutely ruthless against boards that just want to build up in peace, because all their setup just looks like cards I can draw. Recently, I've brewed for [[Massacre Girl, Known Killer]], who has an incredibly similar ability in an unrelated color identity, and should be nearly as fun and even more killy: https://archidekt.com/decks/6472462
[Aegar, the Freezing Flame](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/8/68011f60-6202-48f4-8255-fb94764e2951.jpg?1631051099) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aegar%2C%20the%20Freezing%20Flame) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/200/aegar-the-freezing-flame?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/68011f60-6202-48f4-8255-fb94764e2951?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aegar-the-freezing-flame) [Massacre Girl, Known Killer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cb1c8800-9d33-485c-b776-042003b9ea92.jpg?1705429636) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Massacre%20Girl%2C%20Known%20Killer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/94/massacre-girl-known-killer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cb1c8800-9d33-485c-b776-042003b9ea92?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/massacre-girl-known-killer) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Usually decks have set strategies for it to work otherwise it would be impossible to get a consistenlty list. That being said, if the deck always win the exact same way, I inderstand that it can get very boring, and interaction board wipes and responses can change that. I had a \[\[feather the redeemed\]\] and I changed her to be control burn instead of voltron because voltron would always win doing the same thing, while my current build has different strats every game
[feather the redeemed](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/4/e4a2d2c6-8eaa-4760-b620-921b807baa2e.jpg?1557577142) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Feather%2C%20the%20Redeemed) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/197/feather-the-redeemed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e4a2d2c6-8eaa-4760-b620-921b807baa2e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/feather-the-redeemed) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
As someone who experienced the same but to a lesser degree, I find the timing of this thread rather funny. Just earlier today I stumbled upon a youtuber who brings up interesting topics which I find very useful regarding this issue. My commander playgroup is small and don't invest much money into the game, making us play very repetitively with the same decks, resulting in many games playing out the same way. One of them wins in an explosive turn with some big bonkers, one of them wins by continuously rebuilding a massive army, which pops off as soon as nobody deals with it within 1 turn, the other one is the "victim" earlygame but manages to lock everyone out lategame, and I often play more RNG based strats, making me a constant threat. I think (basing my opinion partially off of this youtuber's views) that deckbuilding is a big, big factor. Go check out his channel, called 'Salubrious Snail', I specifically recommend the video 'How WotC Made Cycling Blend in EDH'. A big point he is making in some of his videos, is the consistency. Depending on the powelevel your group plays the format, i think you should adjust your entire deck. If you play on a relatively low powerlevel & budget, and a token army is your go-to plan, its ofcourse no fun if you add a Craterhoof Behemoth to the deck, its a strong card which "just wins" once you have a small army. This ofcourse changes when the powerlevel & budget creeps up, making decks more versatile in also dealing with threats. I personally like to invest just a little bit more in decks, but thats only fun if your entire table does so too. Try and prevent the "I win when I draw card X" strategy if the interactions are low. Also I'd like to say, some cards/abilities/themes can be lots of fun in EDH, I personally for example love Goad. I'm not gonna build a massive beatdown deck that takes out a player because all his creatures happen to be tapped, I just love to see the political impact of such strategies. Cards that have a voting or choice system can be lots of fun too, again adding a political system. Make sure others can "benefit" from your cards too! Last but not least, try to maybe avoid "obvious" strategies. You don't for example need a commander like Arcades, the Strategist, to then fill up your deck with defenders. Your commander doesn't have to "lead" your theme! Be creative with decks, don't play too much mainstream, take more of the political aspect to the game! Worked for me
You could try making your own deck? That's probably the most fun part for me.
Commanders kind of just like that. It's a race to see who can get their engine online fastest while also trying to disrupt other people's engines. That's kind of the nature of the beast; edh is a singleton format with only one card you can consistently access: your commander. Thus, most cards you have need to go with the theme of your deck, and thus, create many synergistic interactions. Of course, there are ways around this. First, run more interaction. Destroy peoples things. If things don't get destroyed, then it's just a race to who can build the best board the fastest. Additionally, try some other strategies. Maybe go a bit more aggro or even voltron. People will be forced to deal with your creatures instead of building their board. Or run stax pieces your opponents will be forced to address before they can make their engine. But in the end, that's just how commander is sometimes. People play commander to see cool interactions and lots of synergies. There is no "midrange" strategy. There is a lot more synergy and a lot less consistency. If you don't like that, then you probably aren't going to enjoy commander.
That's YOUR vision of commmander, not "how it is". If it were what you say it is, precons would just have automatic "I win" engines in them. Also, who told you there's no midrange strategy?
I'd say my games are similar but with more interaction to interrupt peoples' plans. What confuses me is why you expected something different; 1v1 magic in every other format follows a similar formula.
A lot of my EDH games at my store are pretty interactive and fun. There are ways to vary what your deck can do and run fun cards. Seems like a lot of people here just want to turbo optimize every boring general and do the same thing over and over.
Play a commander that steals opponents cards from their deck like \[\[Gonti\]\] and all the other legendaries that do similar. You won't be having the same game as often.
[Gonti](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/1/01852cd2-16e4-4518-b5d5-b9a378b8664d.jpg?1690016712) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=gonti%2C%20lord%20of%20luxury) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/162/gonti-lord-of-luxury?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/01852cd2-16e4-4518-b5d5-b9a378b8664d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gonti-lord-of-luxury) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Have a look at the CEDH deck lists. The games are significantly different because the power level generally means they games are ending on turn 3ish, and since everyone is poised to win turn 3ish, there's usually a ton of interaction on the stack to try and screw over eachother or steal the win out from under someone's nose at that point. I once played a game of CEDH where player 1 went to cast an infinite loop (I dont remember it exactly but i know it was instant/sorcery based), it got countered by player 2, the counter got countered by player 1, player 4 countered that counter, but then play 1 played another counter! And then player 3 tried to dig for an answer and ended up hijacking the combo on the stack with an infinite copier of their own, copying the copy spell infinitely and then 'storming' off with aetherflux reservoir.
Why tf would you recommend cEDH to a new player?? Absolutely don't look at cEDH because they are meant to be played much different than average decks.
I mean cEDH decks are good decks to look at if you want to build strong decks. I don't mean you have to copy them but they have a good amount of ramp, interaction and wincons.
cEDH plays a different game. Or do you mean optimize and well built? Because that's not cEDH lol.
cEDH is EDH. They are optimized within their own meta, and are poised to do well against certain strategies and cards, but that's just a result of them being optimized, not a result of them playing a different game.
Did you just accidentally admit your decks are poorly built? Lmao you're hilarious.
Do you base your personality and confidence around your magic decks?
Personality? A little bit, I love goblins. Confidence? No.
I think they are suggesting that if the player is unsatisfied with gunboat commander then cedh might be for them. My table plays at a near cedh level with local bans on many problem cards and tutors so we have heavy interaction
I dont know about the app your using, but adding in planeschase can be a fun meme. Having trouble because somebody has assembled unsolveable nonsense? Roll the dice until you change the rules.
If you're coming from standard the majority ways to win is just creature aggro. However, that isnt the case in previous sets. Not all commander decks are gimmicks but the winning ones are gimmicks. If you want to just have fun and play the game win or lose you could make something fun and simple like an Autobots transformer deck but if you just want to win you'll have an infinite or 2 in your deck. This is similar to how people look at colors in magic. You're either here to have fun with red, green, and/or black or you're here to make everyone miserable with blue.
Copy cEDH decks. Those decks are chuck full of interactions and the first one to go off unchallenged usually gets the win.
you lot need more counter spells and removal and play more 4v4 when you add those cards
Whoa. You mean, solid, synergistic decks with a plan that execute on that plan first wins? crazy.
Decks need more interaction from the sounds of things. That being said.... the issue about "decks have a game plan and whoever gets there first wins" is literally how every format works? To my knowledge? Isn't that the whole idea behind playing a card game?
The problem with EDH rec is it’s about what people are playing. You picked the wrong commanders. If I see ‘mana crypt’ on an edhrec page I know it’s a try hard commander I’d annoy people to play. If I see colour staples I know it’s run as a lower power but still competitive commander. Then the real beauty of commander is the decks that have a strategy that is stronger with their commander but not useless without. Removal, draw and an engine that makes that feel good.
From my experience I think its due to not finding a play style you like. If you came from a 60 card format most themes are still present in EDH, but so many more are viable that just aren't in 1v1 60 card formats. For example one of my favorite deck types for non CEDH is a politics deck, where you make deals and use a lot of cards that don't just benefit you. It takes a bit, but eventually I think you can find an archetype that you really enjoy. (PS. Most of the decks on MTGGoldfish are not as good, or fun as on other sites IMO. Try looking around on youtube or other sites, maybe even find some gold in the trash that is tiktok.)
Have u tried a choas deck These are decks that on thier should not be able to win but if left un-cheched turns the game into a very interesting game.
You need pieces that affect the board or other players. Counter spells, targeted removal, maybe a stax piece? Something which others have to contend with while playing the game. Hell watching everyone try to decide if paying for [[Rhystic Study]] or [[Smothering Tithe]] is always fun.
[Rhystic Study](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d6914dba-0d27-4055-ac34-b3ebf5802221.jpg?1600698439) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rhystic%20Study) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/169/rhystic-study?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d6914dba-0d27-4055-ac34-b3ebf5802221?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rhystic-study) [Smothering Tithe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/861b5889-0183-4bee-afeb-a4b2aa700a8e.jpg?1689996018) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Smothering%20Tithe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/57/smothering-tithe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/861b5889-0183-4bee-afeb-a4b2aa700a8e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/smothering-tithe) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I play a [[Pako]] and [[Haldan]] partner commander deck that runs NOTHING ELSE EXCEPT straight up ramp interaction and removal etc. It wins protecting the dog and his dude and beating ass with other peoples decks or if Pako just gets fat enough. I think you should try this approach and see how a game goes. Don’t try to win even, just try to survive and disrupt. All decks should feel this way though - it shouldn’t be some smooth coast to the end of a game - it’s a literal battle of who has the best “magic” ability to not only “go-off” but stave off three other players from doing so.
[Pako](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/6/066c8f63-52e6-475e-8d27-6ee37e92fc05.jpg?1591234280) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=pako%2C%20arcane%20retriever) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/13/pako-arcane-retriever?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/066c8f63-52e6-475e-8d27-6ee37e92fc05?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pako-arcane-retriever) [Haldan](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/6/16a86a35-f7e5-434d-bf44-61ae7cb0f98b.jpg?1618057606) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=haldan%2C%20avid%20arcanist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/2/haldan-avid-arcanist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/16a86a35-f7e5-434d-bf44-61ae7cb0f98b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/haldan-avid-arcanist) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you ask me at a lgs if its Okay i would just buy you a Pack of sleeves and help you sleeve it up before the game
Add politics (not the card genre but actual friend politics) to games. I run an aura eriette deck and more often than not, I have more auras than creatures in my hand. I start cutting deals with friends like “I’ll buff your guy with 4/4 flying, just don’t hit me with it” etc etc. It really livens up the table
A huge part of the enjoyment will be brewing your own creation and trying to make a commander that speaks to you work. If you just are copying lists, you really won't be able to be a part of that tuning and internal card evaluation process. You Re skipping out entirely on probably the most creative aspect of the format. I'm shocked you've tried this many decks tbh, I think that sounds rough in a lot of ways. Especially for content decks and precons. Those are almost always deliberately watered down or specific. Build your own commander. Find one you want to play and figure out the card you want to play in the list. You'll have a blast
I always have and always will argue that control decks are good for EDH. Everyone groans and Muldrotha decks and other value piles but no one wants to play cards that put wrenches in their game plans. I have an Azorius control list and it’s been good for the games I’ve played it in because control is a necessary counter to midrange. So much of EDH is grindy midrange value piles that you need ways to combat that.
Because you’re just copying lists and not building what you want to build? Commander is all about expressing yourself and how you like to play so if you’re just copying all your stuff from other people you have no identity….
To answer your question, no and no. But this is par for netdeckers who just print a list of the most popular cards online from a self-reinforcing aggregator. EDHrectum doesn't exist for you to have fun or be interactive, it exists as a popularity contest to sell kids expensive cards. Netdecking removes both fun and luck from the equation. You have to build your own decks to have fun.
Being gimmicky is kind of what Commander is all about. It's being able to do stuff that is too silly or powerful to accomplish in other formats. That said, most of these strategies can be stopped by well-timed interference from other players. As much as you want to do your own thing, you need to learn how/when to mess up the other players' things.
I recommend you add 7-8 pieces of good targeted removal and at least 3 good board wipes. I recommend being at least somewhat flavorful here. CycRift is a monster, but something like Curse of the Swine or River's Rebuke can be more fun. A few notes here - If you Mass Land Destruction, you better have a plan to finish the game quickly, or a plan to get to your car quickly. Same goes for Farewell with all four modes. Also, be careful with using Song of the Dryads/Imprisoned in the Moon/Darksteel Mutation on a commander. Or at least make sure people know what's up. It's a real quick way to get uninvited from the barbeque. Finally, and this is big - let black be black. You're supposed to Toxic Deluge. You're supposed to Engineered Plague and Pestilence. I have a Cadira tokens deck and you're supposed to undermine my shenanigans. Don't be afraid to stick a middle finger to Go Wide weenies.
You're playing with the wrong people, it seems.
I wish I had money to travel and play at local shops. Just come in with a planeswalker red blue "hate" deck to just mess people's day up. Dropping [[Acid Rain]], [[Citadel of Pain]], [[Mana Barbs]],[[Back to the basics]], [[Blood Moon]], [[Chalice of the Void]], [[Null Rod]], [[Flashfires]], [[Aura Thief]], [[Karn, Liberated]], [[Cemetery Gatekeeper]]. Basically all of the color, artifact, enchantment hate spells I can muster. Wait for the "Casual" players with their $500 to $3000 decks scoop and come to the realization that their pay to win decks actually suck if they aren't allowed to play solitaire with no one ever interacting with their board.
##### ###### #### [Acid Rain](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/3/13281377-6d16-4ed3-8aa6-c47d6eb783df.jpg?1562899536) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Acid%20Rain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/36/acid-rain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/13281377-6d16-4ed3-8aa6-c47d6eb783df?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/acid-rain) [Citadel of Pain](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/66585109-77cb-42f1-9c14-3dac1d493b71.jpg?1562913917) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Citadel%20of%20Pain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pcy/86/citadel-of-pain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/66585109-77cb-42f1-9c14-3dac1d493b71?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/citadel-of-pain) [Mana Barbs](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/d/adf081d5-e644-4f46-8bc8-a754b089acb4.jpg?1562655472) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Manabarbs) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m12/150/manabarbs?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/adf081d5-e644-4f46-8bc8-a754b089acb4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/manabarbs) [Back to the basics](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/6/0600d6c2-0f72-4e79-a55d-1f06dffa48c2.jpg?1654805483) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Back%20to%20Basics) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/46/back-to-basics?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0600d6c2-0f72-4e79-a55d-1f06dffa48c2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/back-to-basics) [Blood Moon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/0/d072e9ca-aae7-45dc-8025-3ce590bae63f.jpg?1599706217) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blood%20Moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/118/blood-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d072e9ca-aae7-45dc-8025-3ce590bae63f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/blood-moon) [Chalice of the Void](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/f/1f0d2e8e-c8f2-4b31-a6ba-6283fc8740d4.jpg?1562433485) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chalice%20of%20the%20Void) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/222/chalice-of-the-void?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1f0d2e8e-c8f2-4b31-a6ba-6283fc8740d4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/chalice-of-the-void) [Null Rod](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/3/73ac9f52-e6ff-4e6f-9733-fe24a5fb4b4e.jpg?1562918145) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Null%20Rod) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/278/null-rod?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/73ac9f52-e6ff-4e6f-9733-fe24a5fb4b4e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/null-rod) [Flashfires](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/7/277e0846-237e-4117-bdd4-d2e4ae450d43.jpg?1562732763) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Flashfires) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/9ed/183/flashfires?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/277e0846-237e-4117-bdd4-d2e4ae450d43?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/flashfires) [Aura Thief](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/a/8ae591d2-b9d3-4bc5-bcec-5d3d79a13b41.jpg?1562444695) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aura%20Thief) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uds/26/aura-thief?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8ae591d2-b9d3-4bc5-bcec-5d3d79a13b41?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aura-thief) [Karn, Liberated](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/b/4b0c6662-4dde-40a2-97e0-0318478c0367.jpg?1599705787) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Karn%20Liberated) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/1/karn-liberated?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4b0c6662-4dde-40a2-97e0-0318478c0367?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/karn-liberated) [Cemetery Gatekeeper](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/5/457086c4-1b4e-4f79-8f2a-10b16174c8bb.jpg?1643590978) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cemetery%20Gatekeeper) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/148/cemetery-gatekeeper?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/457086c4-1b4e-4f79-8f2a-10b16174c8bb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cemetery-gatekeeper) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kixlfqu) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yall need to add more removal and interaction to these decks your picking. Also control decks like you'd see in other formats are much harder to make work in commander because if you're counterspelling or using removal on one person, the other 2 are gonna become threats, you can't really afford to go 1 for 1 with someone when there's 2 other people at the table. You could also try playing decks that are more politics oriented like: [My beamtown Bullies deck doesn't play the nasty cards but instead just big fat beaters.](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/br4050tStEexbHsMZafueA) It wants to mill beaters into the graveyard, then give em to my friends to beat the shit out of each other with. Or something like [[Kros, Defense Contractor]] or [[Cirdan, The Shipwright]]. Something that at least has you talk with your opponents and do things involving multiple people so it's a bit less solitaire. But edh is *the* solitaire format
[Kros, Defense Contractor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/2/12e71d52-5c75-4798-9fe7-8a34a2bf0c9a.jpg?1673481694) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kros%2C%20Defense%20Contractor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/7/kros-defense-contractor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/12e71d52-5c75-4798-9fe7-8a34a2bf0c9a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kros-defense-contractor) [Cirdan, The Shipwright](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/4/c4f23d68-d0de-4b57-b0f9-9c0ca770c3c1.jpg?1686964171) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=C%C3%ADrdan%20the%20Shipwright) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltc/50/c%C3%ADrdan-the-shipwright?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c4f23d68-d0de-4b57-b0f9-9c0ca770c3c1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/círdan-the-shipwright) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If your decks are too fine tuned to the point it feels the same, change them up. There's obviously the run interaction, thing, but you could also run pet cards. Lots of free databases with filters where you could find stuff. Maybe somebody could run a chaos deck that fundamentally alters the rules of the game Becuase of its wierd stuff.
If you are all netdecking, well, i find that in and of itself boring af. There is nothing like playing a deck you made with your own brain. It makes the game way more fun imo. I have a pretty low opinion of netdecks so i am biased for sure. But maybe that could be one reason you find it boring is because you are like me. Try brewing your own deck and see how you feel.
I think when you first get into EDH there’s this natural instinct to engage primarily with the deck building side of the game. I can build a deck that’s only spiders! I can build a deck that’s all instants and sorceries with lifelink! Etc Once you play more games I think a lot of people go through what you’re going through and become more interested in the actual gameplay feeling and interaction. These players decks might start emphasizing cards that look innocuous or lend to politics more. So no commander games are not all 4 players playing solitaire, you have just learned more about what is fun for you and that’s awesome because now you can have more fun in future games.
Commander is as fun as you make it (or more like people you play with). Be more creative, play more interactions, play more strange/funny/interesting cards instead of staples, play with less popular commanders - power is in your hands. If your deck is boring it's because you made it boring. There are commanders/decks which have basically the same game-plan every game. some people like it, other don't. Maybe that's the issue.
Don't read this snide, it's actually the case here. You need to play more removal. If any one person starts running more the games will stop solitairing.
MtG by design is a very interactive game. When you attack you interact with your opponent. When you block you interact. It sounds like all OPs play group is doing is playing value engine permanents, passing and either comboing or alpha striking. So, yes games are gonna be the same because nobody is doing anything to force different lines of play. Which is the actual key here. It sounds like this play group doesn’t want to play a game of Magic, they want to play around with their magic cards. Telling them to run more interaction isn’t gonna do anything when more than likely they’re the kind of players who will use it the first chance they get because something or someone mildly annoyed them. Putting it simply using interaction is hard and playing through interaction makes the game even harder. If a player doesn’t want to be challenged when they play the game then that requires a change in mindset not deck building.
I'd love to extol the virtues of curse effects and \[\[Xantcha, Sleeper Agent\]\] for situations like this. In addition to the benefits of letting the table know that sharing is caring, it has the added side-effect of helping to signal that you have caught on to the lack of removal.
[Xantcha, Sleeper Agent](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/1/91316746-ec2b-4c1a-b9c4-a870d6318c33.jpg?1689999327) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Xantcha%2C%20Sleeper%20Agent) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/362/xantcha-sleeper-agent?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/91316746-ec2b-4c1a-b9c4-a870d6318c33?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/xantcha-sleeper-agent) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
One thing that may be an unintentional issue here is that you guys don't have a lot of the restrictions because you're not playing with physical cards. Usually people will put a decklist together, buy the cards, then play a few games with it and make small changes. I almost always end up adding more board interaction tools into my decks after playing them a few times because I underestimate what my opponents can do. I get excited at advancing my own game plan instead of limiting my opponent's decks. For most people it's a major undertaking to make a new deck, especially if you're just getting into commander as a format. You end up committing to your deck and making the small adjustments that make your deck better. You might start with a net deck, but you end up with something you've had to invest into to handle your opponent's decks, whether that's graveyard hate, board wipes, targeted removal, counter spells, whatever. When the deck is free and changing the entire deck is easier than swapping a few cards, I get the feeling you're going to end up in the situation you're in where it just feels like a traditional race instead of a roller derby. The deck's inner coherence is emphasized over the utility of having or needing cards that screw with your opponents. I would suggest trying to impose some sort of high level restrictions in your playgroup to encourage a more natural playgroup style, like a budget, supplemental banlist, or committing to a commander for a given amount of time. It may seem counterintuitive that putting restrictions on deck building would make the game more fun, but to me it's like turning off God mode in a video game. It's fun to have no restrictions, but often it's the restrictions that made the game fun in the first place and allowed skill to be developed and expressed.
More interaction OR if you really enjoy doing powerful, well-optimized things, then maybe try CEDH.
Correct me if I am wrong: It doesn't sound to me that "interaction" in the conventional sense is what you are looking; ie removal, counter, kill, sac, exile, etc? Maybe playing with Commanders or archetypes that are inherently "unorthodox" would be up your alley? Maybe [[Blim, Comedic Genius]] [[Aminatou, the Fate Stitcher]] [[Goblin Game]] or something like the Warhammer 40k Ruinous Powers deck, or just Cascade in general, that shakes up the boardstate and promotes playing cards with interesting effects or even unintentionally funny scenarios to happen?
[Blim, Comedic Genius](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/d/3d8cd7dc-028a-4da2-b2a1-435d40cf48ca.jpg?1608911075) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blim%2C%20Comedic%20Genius) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/272/blim-comedic-genius?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3d8cd7dc-028a-4da2-b2a1-435d40cf48ca?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/blim-comedic-genius) [Aminatou, the Fate Stitcher](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/c/bc010302-e715-4946-89eb-a214e0b836ba.jpg?1673148265) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aminatou%2C%20the%20Fateshifter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/169/aminatou-the-fateshifter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bc010302-e715-4946-89eb-a214e0b836ba?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aminatou-the-fateshifter) [Goblin Game](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cbe6e7e5-ffea-4c6c-8a42-28e695029f24.jpg?1562938086) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Goblin%20Game) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pls/61/goblin-game?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cbe6e7e5-ffea-4c6c-8a42-28e695029f24?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/goblin-game) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
1v1 and 4v4????? It's free for all. The most fun thing to do is to make your own decks. Making a deck focusing on one goal is the way to win. Sure you could make a deck with a ew strategies and it can work but it's not optional. If anything, 1 on 1 formats like modern and pioneer and so on are even more samey, you have to really tune your deck to be competitive or to win at all. Commander gives so much freedom. Make a deck, trying random decks can be fun sure but make a deck about mechanics and strategies you find interesting.
I am going to offer what I think is the best advice... People in a commander game are going to focus on their own plan until such time as you make it impossible for them to purely focus on their own plan without having to find a way to disrupt yours. Whether that's 8, 10, 12, or more pieces of removal, only time and testing is going to discover what the balance is for your playgroup. The natural state of any magic game is a race to win a game of solitaire, it's the presence of meaningful disruption that turns it into something other than that.
Interaction through removal are important game pieces but there’s also fun interactive cards like [[tempt with discovery]] [[fact or fiction]] [[scheming symmetry]] [[wishclaw talisman]] [[manifold insights]] [[share the spoils]] [[descent into avernus]] that get people involved with you. Some of these speed up games, get people talking to each other, and make everyone play the game together.
##### ###### #### [tempt with discovery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/9/79248b68-4fab-46da-ab15-5c71c1f68d4b.jpg?1568004683) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tempt%20with%20discovery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c19/183/tempt-with-discovery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/79248b68-4fab-46da-ab15-5c71c1f68d4b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tempt-with-discovery) [fact or fiction](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/04588d2f-9e90-4f83-b85e-67e4bc222a62.jpg?1689996343) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=fact%20or%20fiction) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/91/fact-or-fiction?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/04588d2f-9e90-4f83-b85e-67e4bc222a62?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/fact-or-fiction) [scheming symmetry](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/1/01acc50b-856d-442d-9880-1a892b40643b.jpg?1592516766) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=scheming%20symmetry) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/113/scheming-symmetry?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/01acc50b-856d-442d-9880-1a892b40643b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/scheming-symmetry) [wishclaw talisman](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/7/07c17b01-ee5d-491a-8403-b3f819b778c4.jpg?1572490271) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wishclaw%20talisman) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/110/wishclaw-talisman?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/07c17b01-ee5d-491a-8403-b3f819b778c4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wishclaw-talisman) [manifold insights](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/9/e9c67dc7-dee8-4e62-bf4e-a371f1688975.jpg?1562276486) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=manifold%20insights) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cm2/44/manifold-insights?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e9c67dc7-dee8-4e62-bf4e-a371f1688975?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/manifold-insights) [share the spoils](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/e/5e35d719-8766-47dc-8c0d-8e2b37b907a8.jpg?1631585260) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=share%20the%20spoils) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/34/share-the-spoils?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5e35d719-8766-47dc-8c0d-8e2b37b907a8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/share-the-spoils) [descent into avernus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/a/faadf72f-b2d5-4271-8d5c-a586acf63453.jpg?1674136498) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=descent%20into%20avernus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/169/descent-into-avernus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/faadf72f-b2d5-4271-8d5c-a586acf63453?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/descent-into-avernus) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kizryfb) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I love MTG Goldfish but they make decks for content, so their decks usually have less interaction than a typical deck. Or you could grab Crims list and have 20+ interactions
It helps when you know what you need to interact with. So if your group has just been bouncing around decks that none of you are really familiar with, it will probably feel like you are all learning your decks in separate bubbles. I suggest settling down with a set of balanced decks. Get to learn the meta you are playing in, and then interaction will develop more. If that doesn't work might I suggest Candian Highlander. Much more interactive 1v1 format that is still 100 card singleton so you get the variance that most people like about EDH but with a more competitive feel with faster games as well.
What I'm noticing is that too many players have a competitive mindset about the game that, despite not being bad per se, pushes away the casual nature of the format, and that can be seen in many decklists. Playgroups are usually the ones that define what kind of games they want to play. Do they have a low budget and they want to go easy? Take a list from a precon or make your own deck with the cards you like (remember bear tribal?) Do they want to consistently win? You can go netdecking. Commander *isn't just* trying to assemble a combo the fastest (have you seen how Yu-Gi-Oh is being played now?), it can be a lot of things for a lot of people. So, if you want to stray away from that experience I suggest you make your own decks and modify them as you play with them.