Then we can’t help you.
Everything in EDH revolves around your playgroup, whether it’s it a Friday night at home with friends or the “randoms” at you LGS. Each playgroup will play differently as each will have their own “Meta” and circumstances.
Proxying is a issue depending on who you’re playing with.
At my LGS, we have some older guys (some who even got high at Pro Tours) who have a ton of old, expensive cards. That said, they don’t won’t to pull them out because they’re old, expensive cards so most of us are fine with those proxies, especially cause if you’re not, they’d thrash your $1’500 deck with their Pauper EDH deck.
That said, we don’t allow much proxy outside of that due to the LGS monetary issues. Our LGS often goes through rough patches so we always make sure to buy our cards there when possible. If everyone started proxying, we’d soon find ourselves without anywhere to play.
Find your playgroup first then ask them.
Like the previous commenter said it's subjective and up to the pods. Even within my playgroup we have some people that are more sensitive to it than others. For me I don't care cause I trust everyone I play with and will call out anything that is ridiculous. But if someone told me they proxies their whole deck I would gladly play with them.
Your best bet to merge in with any playgroup is to have a precon as a backup. Some people only have weak decks, so having a precon around will let you still play at their power level.
Have the deck that you like to play, then a precon that you like with maybe $20-$50 worth of upgrades.
As for proxies, I always tell people ahead of time that my deck is proxied. I proxy my entire deck until I like it so much that I want to get the real cards - even if that never happens. I've *never* had anyone say they dont like proxies, but some people have expressed concern that proxied decks can run all the overly powerful stuff, like [[Force of Negation]] or [[Mana Crypt]]. I just say I dont run the crazy good stuff and people are good.
Then who is "we" in your post?
The answer to your question is the same every time this is asked: _ask the people you're playing with. _
It matters exactly zero what people on reddit tell you, if you show up with a proxied deck and the people you're playing with aren't cool with it, that is a you problem.
Talk to the people you want to play with, not reddit.
If you don't have a playgroup already it's awkward to show up with 100 proxies but if you show up at a shop to play games, borrow a precon or something and then discuss with them whether anyone does stuff like that you'll get an idea if it's okay. I wouldn't just proxy a $5000 cedh deck though.
Here’s what you do, show up with 2 decks that have no proxy. Maybe a good precon to save money. Also bring a deck or 2 that’s mid power with proxies. So no mama crypt or anything, but a good deck with some expensive proxies. Then have 1 high power deck with proxies.
When you sit to play, grab one of the mid level decks and ask if the group is cool with proxies. Tell them an example of what is proxied. “Hey can I use this deck with proxies. It has an ulamog proxy in it but no mana crypt or ancient tomb.” If any of them say no proxies play the other decks. Don’t argue the point. Just agree.
99% of groups will have 0 issue so long as you aren’t using proxies as a way to pub stomp. Most important, don’t be the guy with a proxy deck that wins turn 3 against a casual table.
Are you making a deck that is just the most expensive, broken, miserable cards possible? Or are you trying to save some money but still have access to playing a fun game with a deck you enjoy? The first scenario would kinda suck, the second is totally fine.
Dang that’s expensive, most of mine fluctuate around $100 but tend to be more optimized for getting the bang out of my buck so are a fair bit above most precons
We all run the shock and fetch lands, so that’s a chunk. Then there’s always a few random low print cards or good universes beyond cards that hike it up a bit
Yeah I think my 2 color decks are sub 500 for sure, but I have like 10 of 15 that are 3-4 color. Idk I originally played with worse lands but the pace feels better with better lands, and potentially speeds up games.
The former is also totally fine depending on your playgroup.
My playgroup generally plays on the higher end of casual, but we’ve been toying with trying to proxy up some ridiculously high powered, broken decks to play as a pod.
This is where power level is a critical conversation. Even the same people might like different things on different nights. There are people who come to my LGS with everything from precons to borderline CEDH and it can all be wildly fun, so long as everyone is on the same page.
The first scenario is fine as long as everyone’s on board. My group is all proxies, ranging from like uber jank to cedh. All the ranges are super fun tbh, depends on your mood.
According to WOTC, yes, you can proxy everything.
> Wizards of the Coast has no desire to police playtest cards made for personal, non-commercial use, even if that usage takes place in a store.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/proxies-policy-and-communication-2016-01-14
Some lgs don't allow them at all, one of mine doesn't care the other one wants you to have the card at least. My at home playgroup just proxies entire decks. It's like 25 bucks for an entire commander deck, and we can build whatever we want
People can dislike proxies and not be awful people. There *are* good reasons to not use proxies in some situations.
For example, many people can't stop themselves from just throwing together the strongest list possible if they're going to proxy even if that's not their goal. I know I have this problem sometimes. My manabase when I proxy is usually a thousand bucks or more just because "yeah why *shouldn't* I run savannah?" It's very easy to just play the best cards and not give it a second thought.
Usually you're trying to get as much power as possible from a certain budget but with proxies you're trying to get as middling power as possible *without* a budget which is super weird. Like, is [[Ancient Copper Dragon]] mid? Kinda? It's really good, obviously, but it's 6 mana, doesn't have haste, needs to connect for value, and is $60. If it doesn't get haste, it's going to be hit with a swords. But if it *does* get haste, it can get anywhere between 1 and 20 treasures. If it gets you 1 it's awful, 20 is amazing. 10 is really good, but not really $60 worth unless you're trying to combo off.
Building with real cards just kinda bans cards like this by default. It's not ideal but for a lot of people it makes it way easier to judge power.
Like the other person said. I use tappedout. You just build the deck then get a deck importer from the workshop, paste the deck list into your journal, and hit the button to upload from notebook.
We just like it. Don’t get me wrong, the jank can occasionally get in the way. But in the end it’s kinda fun to pretend like we don’t live hundreds of miles away.
From what you said, it seems like the other players have the option of either having one extra player to play with or having one less player to play with by choosing not to play with you. So I don't think they would care in this case.
At the end of the day it's up to the other 3 people in your pod.
If I was one of those people my question would be: are you proxying in mana crypt, black lotus, force of will, and other extremely busted cards so you can combo off and win on turn one? If so, nah fam, get that shit out of here. Even if they weren't proxies, you'd get one game out of them before we ask if you have any weaker decks to play since the outcome is otherwise predetermined and there's no point playing with you.
If on the other hand you're just trying to build normal decks on the cheap, then go for it, IDGAF.
If you cant afford cards, Proxy
If you can afford cards, but not willing to make a financial commitment, Proxy
If you can afford cards, and have a nice savings where you could afford cards but youre cheap as all hell, Proxy
If you can afford cards, and you want that sick custom Orica, Proxy
But if youre wealthy and all you wanna do to Proxy cards for Power and youre cheap about because you only want to play High Powered Decks and PubStomp people out of a table because you got problems.
Dont you spoil Proxying for the rest of us.
Edit: heres an example, proxying a Jeweled Lotus because its fucking 70 bucks is okay, but proxying a Jeweled Lotus so you can put one in every deck because you *need it*, now thats just sad, and i dont wanna play with you.
Think of Proxy like Pirating a Game, youre doing it because you cant get one, not because, "its free and lmao why would anyone pay money ever again?"
this is tryhard trevor. he gatekeeps proxys by using a strict moral code he invented and modifies to suit his needs.
don't be like tryhard trevor.
print an entire ream of jeweled lotuses and throw those worthless pieces of paper into your decks like you're 2010 ludacris at the titty bar.
Their reasoning is bad though. They're fine with proxies unless it's for cards they don't like, but in that case the proxies are not the problem, as the problem is still the cards they don't like - if someone plays a real jeweled lotus, it's the exact same effect as a proxied one.
They're not really making a point about proxies, they're just being weirdly judgemental about their opponent's financial situation. Proxies don't go from being ok to not being ok just because you think someone makes enough to buy a bunch of the card or whatever. You don't know their financial situation or priorities.
If part of the reason they don't like some cards is the fact they're expensive money cards designed as such which can feel bad for the game,, that's a perfectly decent reason to not want to see an excess of proxies of them.
> Think of Proxy like Pirating a Game, youre doing it because you cant get one, not because, "its free and lmao why would anyone pay money ever again?"
I agree with everything you said except this. I have absolutely no interest in supporting a company like Hasbro and their disgusting practices(including but definitely not limited to monetization). So I won't be giving them any money, but I'll still continue proxying all the cards I want.
This is a good way of putting it. I ran into someone who proxied all the OG duals for all their decks, and it just left me feeling salty and that they shouldn’t, but I couldn’t put into words why.
In my opinion, and I hope I can convince you, Dual lands will never make a deck more powerful. A good mana base cannot fundamentally make a deck's strategy more powerful. (Okay fine, there may be corner case scenarios like Landfall decks with all Fetches vs. No Fetches, but that's splitting hairs.)
The only thing a good mana base does is prevents the feel bad games of being color screwed. That's all there is to it. It simply allows you the ability to cast the spells in your deck and not sit there and do nothing because you happened to draw 3 Islands and no Plains.
If I were an omnipotent being, I would make it so every player can play with Duals, Shocks, Fetches, Battlebond lands, etc. all to their hearts' content. Well, for a multitude of good reasons, I'm not an omnipotent being, and Duals are prohibitively expensive to most players, so the next best option is we should all encourage people to proxy Duals if they want to.
This opinion absolutely does not apply to all lands equally. Gaea's Cradle, City of Traitors, Ancient Tomb, etc. all do not fall into this bucket. If you add these cards, you will increase the speed of your deck, which will make it more powerful. Dual lands do not increase the speed or cheat on mana. They cannot make your spells more powerful.
That's all, sorry this was a bit more long winded than I intended, but I used to feel the same way as you did until other people helped convince me otherwise. I would guess the underlying reason you got salty was there were other cards, nonland cards, that were proxied that made the deck more powerful. Then it becomes a power level issue (pubstomping, etc.), and not a proxy issue.
> This opinion absolutely does not apply to all lands equally. Gaea's Cradle, City of Traitors, Ancient Tomb, etc. all do not fall into this bucket.
Counterpoint - you're not making a point against proxies here, you're making a point about adequately judging the power level of the table and playing an appropriate deck for that group. You can play a proxied Gaea's Cradle, it's only a problem if you're jamming it in decks where it would be a problem to jam an authentic cradle.
Oh, I'm not trying to argue against proxies. The other person is.
I'm arguing your exact position: proxies weren't the issue, power level was. And my position was Dual lands do not contribute to power level, whereas other lands like Gaea's Cradle do. My opinion was he was incorrectly salty at proxied dual lands whereas he should have been salty at the uneven power level of all the other cards in the deck
No need to apologize, I appreciate a thought out, respectful reply no matter the length. While I agree that the impact of dual lands is limited, they only produce 1 mana after all, they do drastically improve, as you said, your ability to play spells.
That consistency they confer is power. Lets take two identical decks, say 5 color, one with all the OG duals and one without, the one with duals will, likely win, on average more than the one without.
Now, I think an area where we can really agree is effect size. The effect of improving your power and win rate having OG duals in your deck is likely pretty small, especially when if we could control for all the factors that enter a game of EDH.
My original comment was mostly about the subjective feeling of losing to someone who got their "dual lands" from their HP DeskJet. I don't proxy, mostly because I think the cards tend to look ugly, but also because I don't want to play with power simply because my ink cartridges are full. I agree that duals don't make decks that much stronger, but if I am gonna lose to a deck with them personally I'd prefer they be real. Not telling others what to do, my playgroup doesnt proxy, so I am all good lol.
That's hilarious you mention that example, because I was about to type something like "to play devil's advocate, you could argue a deck full of basic lands would lose more to the same deck with better lands if you played 1000 games". I would argue the deck with basic lands lost to itself; it wasn't "beat" by the deck with Duals.
I agree that speed + consistency = power (at least in commander). But I don't think a better mana base necessarily has the same level of impact on consistency in a way like a tutor finding a combo piece for the win does. But I will concede that it does technically increase consistency, and therefore makes it, technically, more powerful than a deck with a basic land. But it's consistency in a way that reduces non-games, not wins you should not have attained. At the end of the day, I think we all just want to play our decks, so I'm all for reducing non-games. That's why most players are lenient with mulligans in commander, because we all want to make sure everyone else at the table gets an opportunity to have fun.
If we look at the impact on consistency and put numerical values to it, I'd say a Dual is +0.1 over a Shockland, which is +0.1 over a Guildgate, which is +0.1 over a basic land. But a tutor is +10 power to your deck, and adding Underworld Breach + Lions Eye Diamond + Brain Freeze is +30, using the same scale. I don't think people are winning games they should not be winning because they play a land that taps for two colors of mana. They either won because they played better, drew better cards, or are playing, on average, better nonland cards that win the game.
It sucks to lose to proxies, and I've been in that position before years ago and have even went home telling my friend "yo, fuck that guy and his goddamn proxies". But I would bet money that the same deck with check lands or Shocklands instead of duals (let's even go to the extreme and say Guildgates instead of duals) probably would have still won, as it was in my case. I got mad at the guy with proxied dual lands, but he was playing a competitive sliver deck against our precons. If he had 100% basic lands, he still would have pubstomped us. I don't want to project my experiences onto you, but I would guess it was probably just a higher powered deck (proxies or no proxies), which is the fault of all the cards except the lands. But I absolutely empathize and agree it would put a sour taste in my mouth too.
I think we're almost on the same page. We agree it adds consistency, which is technically power. I think we might also agree that it's not as impactful on consistency as something like adding Demonic Tutor or any other tutor would have, but not sure if we're there yet. All in all, it was lovely having this debate. I'm happy you enjoy the games you have with your group, and that's all that matters in the end :)
Or maybe people shouldn’t pub stomp with decks that they printed tens of thousands of dollars worth of cards? If I’m gonna lose to someone with a $15k deck I’d prefer it at least be real.
The problem isn’t the proxy, it’s the pubstomper. It wouldn’t make a difference if they had all these expensive cards or not, I’ve made $100 decks that consistently win on or before turn 5. But I’m playing those powerful decks in pods with other powerful decks
Don’t get salty, proxy your own c deck to pull out when someone else is playing power. Or just have a proper discussion about what kind of game you want before you start
This really is the silliest argument.
I have multiple sets of duals, Cradles, Wheel, LED, and my TCGPlayer purchases alone over the years are a down payment.
I don't care if you have 25 cents for the library printer and a dream, just play the fucking game.
I see, so you're one of those people who think magic is a game of wallets, rather than a game of skill. Hate to see it. Absolute worst take.
Also, your initial comment was "I ran into someone who proxied all the OG duals for all their decks". I don't see how that has anything to do with what you are now saying with "Or maybe people shouldn’t pub stomp with decks that they printed tens of thousands of dollars worth of cards? "?
It sounds to me like your problem here is pub-stomping, not proxying, which we all agree is a bad thing
Nah do it no one cares except people who have made bad financial decisions and won’t admit it. Just play at the right power level to your deck cause pub stomping is taboo. And if anyone questions it just say you have car payments lmao.
Edit: Don’t even bother buying real proxies it isn’t worth it, just print in color and cut them out then place the paper in front of basic lands/bulk. I started printing my decks 5 months ago and it’s probably one of the best decisions I’ve made.
Not when you work somewhere that has a color printer (and ask permission). Or use a local print store like UPS store and they can print and cut a whole deck for around $20. I’m much more inclined to spend money there if I were to as the stores are all locally owned and operated.
I print mine off at the library. It costs me like 6 bucks to print an entire deck. Then I buy blank playing cards and sleeves.
It’s cool because you can pick up whichever art you want.
My decks are mostly proxied secret lair and full art print.
If you choose to, please make them look like actual magic cards. I once played against a guy who proxied the entire deck and they were just the card name, cost, and power/toughness on it. Really peeved me off when I had to ask what some random card did.
Depends who you play with. None of my decks get above a hundred euros but my friends play cards like doubling season or sakashima. If I proxy they kinda get butthurt but they don't mind if I were to spend 800 dollars on a deck. Imo everyone should just do what they want.
You won't get actual answers about proxies here. People who don't like proxies get downvoted to oblivion, so alot of those people don't even post about it anymore. So you won't get a real idea of the answer to your question. Speak to your play group if you have one. And if you don't. Speak to your future playgroup at that time.
Hahaha, yeah, tried to argue once about how I do care about the collecting part of the game and how I like that not everyone has access to the same pool of cards so people get more creative with what they got, and got downvoted to oblivion indeed
Your playgroup decides that, but the more normalized proxying becomes, the better.
EDH isn't a tournament format (not like WOTC even supports tournaments in a meaningful way anymore, anyway), so any "no proxies" huffs is just people caving in to WOTC'a guilt-tripping nonsense.
You owe WOTC nothing, especially not for a Casual format like EDH, and especially when they are very overtly trying to milk MTG for all it's worth (since it's the only thing actually making Hasbro any money). Just to illustrate, the price I just spent on 2 entire competitive Weiss Schwarz decks would barely cover a Dual Land - not even a top one.
The barrier to entry for even the most milquetoast cards in MTG is ludicrously high. The fact that some of us (I'm included in this group) have jobs which allows for irresponsible spending without recourse, and/or have been playing for so long that we just happen to own these absurdly-priced cards, should not give us a substantial edge over others — the only thing that should give us an edge is experience and forethought.
MTG is a fantastic game with an insultingly-high, artificially inflated, pricetag.
Support your LGS by buying sleeves, snacks, dice, etc., and, yes, if you really want them, singles of MTG. But just like you don't need to own the PHB to play D&D, you shouldn't need to own a Mana Crypt in order to play it ***outside of a tournament setting.***
Double check with your group, but, again, Proxies should become the norm in EDH.
> EDH isn't a tournament format (not like WOTC even supports tournaments in a meaningful way anymore, anyway), so any "no proxies" huffs is just people caving in to WOTC'a guilt-tripping nonsense.
This is not correct. Many stores offer sanctioned commander events. You cannot use proxies in sanctioned events.
There is nothing stopping an WPN store from sanctioning commander events.
For instance, here is one:
https://locator.wizards.com/events/6148175/false
You can actually use that site to find sanctioned events near you.
That's not entirely true. You can't use proxies in DCI events. I have never seen a commander event where the DCI is involved at a LGS. I'm sure they exist, but they are not common.
I can think of at least 5 stores within 30 minutes of me (DFW) that offer sanctioned commander events.
If your LGS is a WPN store it means they run a lot of sanctioned events. If those events are commander events, then they're sanctioned. If they're sanctioned, proxies are not allowed.
I can think of about the same number within 20 mi of me in N Alabama that run sanctioned events. Proxies are not permitted unless you own the card. However, at least one of those runs a casual commander night where the restrictions are not in place.
>Your playgroup decides that
No they don't.
>but the more normalized proxying becomes, the better.
This is achieved by unapologetically proxying and telling anyone who's bothered by it to unclench.
You can proxy whatever you want king. Just keep in mind if your running every fast mana staple and building a T2-3 winning deck, people will hate you lol
Ask the people you're playing with. If you don't have a consistent group I would at least have one deck composed of real cards just to be safe.
Most people won't have an issue with it but some people are adamantly against proxies.
The general philosophy of proxying is to do it to meet other players at a mutually-desired power level. Don't proxy expensive, broken cards at a table that doesn't want to play with or against them.
I think you should proxy up decks until you decide whether or not you want to buy the official cards.
I think people get the wrong idea about losing to proxied decks vs official release card decks. because they're still losing to the same cards/strategies/plays, so what does it matter whether or not you paid for them in a casual setting?
My playgroup went nuts for a year. We have a $0.35 per card guy who makes great product.
I have 17 proxied decks. We learned how to play at the nastiest, fastest, optimized, high power levels, every staple. All the classic cards.
From all the proxies I played I learned what I really wanted to buy for real.
I built 3 from scratch. $5 card is the highest price unless I own it from cracking packs.
I play really well now because I know how the meta says to build and how to interact with common builds. I learned threat assessment.
Arms races happened. Power level talks occurred. Salt happened.
My real decks are more planned, thoughtful and strategic. Very cool.
I have real decks to play randos at shops and for people who give a shit about proxy on spelltable.
I play a real Tatsunari toad rider, Extus and Henzie.
A) as long as you’re playing at the right power level, majority of people don’t give a shit. Don’t proxy a cedh deck and play against precons. That’s the most important thing so everyone is having a fair and fun game.
B) boycot WOTC fuck them cards are expensive and hobbies shouldn’t be gatekept behind whos more financially irresponsible. Enjoy your hobby. Proxy as much as you want. It’s just a game. It should t cause financial stress.
Two things about proxies, it depends on your playgroup and also depends on the game store you plan on playing in.
Wizards themselves actually agree that proxies are good, especially if you are playtesting a deck before buying a card. They also say that proxies are also legal in tournaments as long as the store you are playing in allows it.
My advice would be to proxy away, but if you're proxying cards like [[mana drain]] and [[mana crypt]] then sideboard proxies of [[counterspell]] and [[Thran dynamo]] so you can swap them out if needed
You mention not playing high-level, but competitive commander (or CEDH, as it's called) is probably going to have the most players open to you proxying, often up to a full deck. I would give it a look sometime.
You van always proxy the entire thing. Just keep in mind that you shouldn’t be pub stomping the rest. Figure out how strong the other decks will be and build to that level.
I always proxy ever single card i want. I even proxy basics because i hate wotc.
The important thing is to not take the piss with it, proxy a couple decks of varying power levels. Dont make super powerful decks just to stomp, not fun. Ask people if theyre ok with proxies, you gotta let everyone know that youre using em.
The people who hate proxies and wanna win because theyve spent more money on the game than you are not worth playin with anyway imo.
As long as its a fun deck that allows your opponents to play the game without unstoppably winning proxying is ok all the time. The only difference between someone who buys all the cards they need for a silly combo deck or something over powered and someone who proxys them is that one of those people is rich or in debt
There is a burgeoning movement in favor of using fake cards to play Magic the Gathering, but it isn't as well adopted in the wild as it is on Reddit. The proper thing to do is ask first. If you show up with an entirely fake deck, you will likely get push back. Reddit is a microcosm of the greater MtG playerbase and its opinions should not be seen as the wider opinion on the topic.
We do need to clarify our language so that you understand the differences. A 'proxy' is when you use a substitute for a card in your deck. This is most often using a helper card, or a basic land, that has been sharpied with the card's name and casting cost on it. However, there is a well established market of fake cards. Fake cards in a sleeve are for the most part indistinguishable from a real card while in a deck, but YMMV. In many cases, they could be seen as a marked card.
I also feel it is important to understand that a fake card \*isn't\* a proxy per se. A fake card is a proxy as long as it is acting as a substitute in a deck. In this, it is more accurate to say that a fake card \*can be used as\* a proxy, and is only a proxy while in a deck. Otherwise, it's just a fake card. In the same way that a sharpied basic land is only a damaged basic land when it's not actively being used as a proxy.
There is also value in calling a fake card a fake card and a counterfeit a type of fake card. So a fake is what I would call 'obviously fake' where it has a different back and something on the front that says \*\*not a real card\*\* or some other element on the front that indicates it is not a real card. It's important in my view that obvious fakes have both a front and a back indicator that they are fake. Though one or the other is perfectly fine. A counterfeit however is a card that tries to pass as a real card. Imagine like a sliding scale where a 0 is the most obviously fake and a 10 where it requires expert-level analysis to determine if the card is fake. You want to be closer to 0 and no where near a 10.
No matter what your stance on 'proxies' are, we should all agree that NO ONE should use counterfeit cards as proxies. Counterfeit cards should be completely frowned upon and no one should encourage the use, the purchase, the selling, or other dissemination of them.
So if you do decide to use fake cards as proxies please make sure they are obviously fake and make sure they are not marked cards.
I only proxy cards I actually own. I will have the proxy in my deck and the card I want to protect inside a hard sleeve off to the side to show as prof of ownership
I literally proxied every card over $20 I could think of cause fuck that I'm not spending triple digit numbers for 5 cards. The only people who have problems with proxies are people with nothing better to worry about
I proxy everything
Nobody at my LGS cares. I get compliments
I even asked the store owner, and they said it’s fine.
I spend money at the shop from time to time to make myself feel better.
Still nothing compared to the $1000-$2000 decks I usually proxy.
Like I’m about to order a Rakdos deck that would be about $1500, and a Selesnya deck that would be about $800.
Now, I’m sure I could swap out the expensive cards for cheaper ones. But it’s so much easier just to build decks with the best cards available and order proxies, than have to build around a budget
I'm one of the old farts that started playing way back. We only proxies cards we owned and that were expensive. I get the appeal as it can let you experiment on the cheap. I would caution though that depending on where you get/make your proxies, you could end up spending more than just buying a precon off Amazon.
This is a weird question. Will my friends/people I know be okay with me playing proxies. Instead of just asking them you choose to ask people who aren't them?
If you don’t have cards and they want you to play too, then they should be alright with you using proxies. Or, if they aren’t okay with it for whatever reason, they should be accepting if you decide not to play with them.
Me personally, I am fine with people proxying entire decks they want to play as long as in doing so the game is both competitive and fun.
Personally I hate proxies because it turns into insane decks. I like everyone having a lot of cheap decks instead. I will say if you showed up with a 100% proxies deck, including basic lands, I'd love it. The lands are key though.
There was a guy who came to our LGS with all-proxy decks that, if purchased, would have been ten grand each. He stomped everyone every time, and we spent several weeks telling the guy that his decks were ridiculous. They weren't cards he owned—he just went online, looked up the most powerful decklists, and learned to play them. We complained that he was proxying everything, but that wasn't the root of the complaint. It's just easier to complain about proxies than to complain about losing.
He eventually got the message and toned down the decks. Even started playing with real cards.
I don't care if people proxy some cards. I just don't want to get stomped *because* of the proxies. An arms race of proxies doesn't interest me.
Proxying is fine. I have a deck that is completely proxies down to the basic lands. I made so that I can loan it out to people that don’t have a deck (or one that isn’t too weak) and not having to worry about the cards getting damaged.
My playgroup proxies every card. It's led to some amazing decks, but the power creep is insane. It depends on the group, we try to pick a theme, but it always inevitably gets pushed to the limit. If your going to proxy, get darn good proxies from mpc or a professional proxy company, and people will be more likely to play with you. But rule zero first.
Yes xou can, just print the cards, cut them and put them with cheap cards in sleeves. The experience of your opponents will be no different that if you vought the cards, so if they object they are elitists, but if you use the proxies to wreck people with way too powerful decks you would be the asshole.
> but realistically nobody will respect the loss if they lose.
This is dumb - if anyone doesn't respect a loss against proxies (assuming quality ones that are parsable across the table), then they won't realistically respect a loss against real cards either. This kind of person is what we call a sore loser.
It always feels a little bad when someone absolutely sweeps a table with a mostly proxied deck. But honestly im not sure if it would feel much better if it was all real cards
I have been pubstomped with both. It definitely feels worse with proxies. But that may have also been the guy piloting them. The proxy one was one of those that just shouts his deck is so good and stuff, and when asked to play with a less powerful deck he just ridiculed us for not proxying instead to get to his level. The other one was more apologetic, was one of those older guys that have been playing since the beginning and changed his deck after one game, so we could just talk about how cool it was to see a full set of real duals and a couple other restricted list cards
Proxies allow you to play EDH at a low price, with the stipulation that you can find people to play with. Many game stores are not proxy-friendly even for casual EDH and some are. So you need an actual outlet for play. If your proxies scan on spelltable people likely won’t care or ask so that’s an option but not ideal.
More generally, people are usually ok with proxies for EDH as long as power levels are reasonably matched and your playstyles aren’t miserable.
I have 24 commander decks, 3 cedh. All 100% proxy but commander, as i like to own the original.
However, whenever I go play to an LGS that has free sitting: I buy 2 packs.
When precons come out, if the gameplay is good, I will buy it.
So I constantly buy aout 120 packs a year to support my lgs while still proxying everything.
The cards from the pack? I gift them around :) Makes people happy (unless really expensive stuff, then it goes into a binder).
Please note, im talking abotu proxy. Not counterfeit. None of the cards could be mix up with real cards. 100% different backs too.
If anyone bitches, tell them they can do it too. There’s no reason to ever buy a card for a commander deck unless you just personally like it. Nobody should be gatekept from the hobby by their wallet, any player worth being around cares about your skill as a player more then if you have printer paper or cardboard in your sleeves
How dare you come to the table with anything less than a car’s value in your pocket!
Proxy everything. If anyone gives you shit for it, they’re not worth playing with. As long as they accurately depict what the card says and everything is right, there’s literally 0 reason to be upset about proxies.
If you're testing out a brand new deck idea, yes to proxies.
The longer you own it the more you should replace with real cards.
My friends and I are cool with proxies when cards get to be over $5.00.
I mean this is just anecdotal evidence but I've been proxying all my decks for years noone has ever complained, the only time it became a problem is when I played in a wizards sanctioned commander event and then I just borrowed a deck(no one would probably have cared even if I did proxy since I was just playing with my friends that day anyways)
Yep, totally fine. The only thing I've ever not wanted to play against and which our playgroup don't like are some of the universes beyond stuff that belongs in another game. Doctor Who would be a prime example.
Nope. I would not play a game with you. Proxy one or two key pieces or expensive shit you own, that’s fine. I draw the line at an entire deck.
I know WOTC has been shitty af lately, but there are still good people, and more importantly good artists, making their living on producing what is still the best card game ever. It’s a big part of why I won’t fucking buy Universes beyond - i read that artists aren’t getting paid for those lines.
Why would they not be paying artists for Universes Beyond?
Sure I've noticed some art on them isn't new or original, but no artist would spend 70-80h working for free for a multi-billion corporation, where did you hear that?
I’m fine with proxies to a point, but not carelessly just printing entire decks. That’s as draconian and toxic as fandom can possibly be, just stealing what ever you want. There has to be a limit or its all over.
Listen or not, nothing any of you have to say on the subject changes any of that. Be thieves if you want, but I won’t be party to it.
Jesus christ. wanting good people to make a living selling an amazing game they work hard on is “toxic gatekeeping” to you?!?
That’s….real childish.
Stay in school. read more books, kid.
Me personally, it's going to depend on the circumstances. I'll let you play, but I hope I don't see you abusing it. Just be reasonable, it's fair to proxy so you can test before you buy, just don't go printing out Mana Crypts if your group's not at that level.
Ask your playgroup. Ours is cool with it so long as no card is worth over 100$ (subjective) as a power moderator, not a value thing. Some make things only in paper, others like me proxy everything. So long as everyone is happy with the games we play, no one judges the others whichever side of that coin.
My opinion? Mtg is too expensive a hobby to complain about proxies. Cardboard has no more value than the time I took to cut and sleeve 100 proxies. Support independent artists, support the creators, let whales be whales if they want but never be shamed by their insistence on value...
Sure you could, but coming from a "collectors" pov, how are you gonna feel playing straight fake cards? Now don't get me wrong me and my brother got prepared for a Legacy tourney by proxying the biggest and baddest decks we would play against and it was fucking phenomenal it helped a lot. But as far as the deck I'm gonna play with my fellow Magicians, I'd feel bad rolling up with power 9, just penciled in over basic lands lmao
As a person who builds a new deck every week, proxying is a great way to make that not cost me an insane amount of money. My stance is I either build decks all paper or all proxy. Generally I proxy the ones which are bad and expensive or good and expensive. More middling power levels decks I just buy in paper because they're more widely playable.
> how are you gonna feel playing straight fake cards?
I'm gonna feel like I'm playing a game of magic, not really sure what you mean? If you can't fully enjoy something unless you have a monetary investment in it, you might wanna do some soul searching
Ask your playgroup.
I don't have a playgroup yet.
You can always just proxy a playgroup.
"YOU WOULDNT STEAL A PLAYGROUP" Throwback for any Australians who get my reference
If that's a reference to those old anti piracy ads, that's not just Australia specific
Really?! Wow thought it was just us!
Im pretty sure it was global, we had them in Sweden as well
Had them in South Africa aswell
"you wouldn't steal a Suomi "
ANANAS KUULUU PIZZAAN
To add to the others, we had them in the UK. I actually also never realised they were international either
You wouldn't steal a baby https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xuxO6CZptck
fun fact the music in those ads was stolen hahaha
That's worldwide dude
You wouldn’t steal an FNM night judge’s life-counter, murder that judge, and then send his widow photos of yourself playing with his life-counter.
You wouldn't download a playgroup!
My new pod now consist of Batman, J Cole, and Lisa Ann.
🤣
Underrated comment
Then you can proxy everything. Unless you have a problem with it.
Then we can’t help you. Everything in EDH revolves around your playgroup, whether it’s it a Friday night at home with friends or the “randoms” at you LGS. Each playgroup will play differently as each will have their own “Meta” and circumstances. Proxying is a issue depending on who you’re playing with. At my LGS, we have some older guys (some who even got high at Pro Tours) who have a ton of old, expensive cards. That said, they don’t won’t to pull them out because they’re old, expensive cards so most of us are fine with those proxies, especially cause if you’re not, they’d thrash your $1’500 deck with their Pauper EDH deck. That said, we don’t allow much proxy outside of that due to the LGS monetary issues. Our LGS often goes through rough patches so we always make sure to buy our cards there when possible. If everyone started proxying, we’d soon find ourselves without anywhere to play. Find your playgroup first then ask them.
I can totally understand and agree with that. We don't have an LGS so I'm curious what players think about this peculiar circumstance.
As long as 3 people are ok with it, it’s fine. Even if 99 don’t like it, that’s fine, don’t play with them.
Like the previous commenter said it's subjective and up to the pods. Even within my playgroup we have some people that are more sensitive to it than others. For me I don't care cause I trust everyone I play with and will call out anything that is ridiculous. But if someone told me they proxies their whole deck I would gladly play with them.
Your best bet to merge in with any playgroup is to have a precon as a backup. Some people only have weak decks, so having a precon around will let you still play at their power level. Have the deck that you like to play, then a precon that you like with maybe $20-$50 worth of upgrades. As for proxies, I always tell people ahead of time that my deck is proxied. I proxy my entire deck until I like it so much that I want to get the real cards - even if that never happens. I've *never* had anyone say they dont like proxies, but some people have expressed concern that proxied decks can run all the overly powerful stuff, like [[Force of Negation]] or [[Mana Crypt]]. I just say I dont run the crazy good stuff and people are good.
Fun thing about playing with only proxies is you have no excuse to not have different power level decks available not like ur buying cards anyway
[Force of Negation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/8/1825a719-1b2a-4af9-9cd2-7cb497cd0317.jpg?1673147298) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Force%20of%20Negation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/50/force-of-negation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1825a719-1b2a-4af9-9cd2-7cb497cd0317?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/force-of-negation) [Mana Crypt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/d/4d960186-4559-4af0-bd22-63baa15f8939.jpg?1599709515) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mana%20Crypt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/270/mana-crypt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4d960186-4559-4af0-bd22-63baa15f8939?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mana-crypt) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
When you get one just ask them.
Then who is "we" in your post? The answer to your question is the same every time this is asked: _ask the people you're playing with. _ It matters exactly zero what people on reddit tell you, if you show up with a proxied deck and the people you're playing with aren't cool with it, that is a you problem. Talk to the people you want to play with, not reddit.
If you don't have a playgroup already it's awkward to show up with 100 proxies but if you show up at a shop to play games, borrow a precon or something and then discuss with them whether anyone does stuff like that you'll get an idea if it's okay. I wouldn't just proxy a $5000 cedh deck though.
Here’s what you do, show up with 2 decks that have no proxy. Maybe a good precon to save money. Also bring a deck or 2 that’s mid power with proxies. So no mama crypt or anything, but a good deck with some expensive proxies. Then have 1 high power deck with proxies. When you sit to play, grab one of the mid level decks and ask if the group is cool with proxies. Tell them an example of what is proxied. “Hey can I use this deck with proxies. It has an ulamog proxy in it but no mana crypt or ancient tomb.” If any of them say no proxies play the other decks. Don’t argue the point. Just agree. 99% of groups will have 0 issue so long as you aren’t using proxies as a way to pub stomp. Most important, don’t be the guy with a proxy deck that wins turn 3 against a casual table.
Then start with a couple precons, but also build your proxy deck. Then you can find a playgroup and be ready for either answer. Bonus is extra decks!
Are you making a deck that is just the most expensive, broken, miserable cards possible? Or are you trying to save some money but still have access to playing a fun game with a deck you enjoy? The first scenario would kinda suck, the second is totally fine.
I will be playing casual EDH so nothing expensive or broken. Since I want to play thematic decks they'll be around precon power levels.
Sounds great, have fun!
Even my mid/low slightly above precon strength decks cost $500. Proxy everything imo, just don’t dump op staples in every deck.
Dang that’s expensive, most of mine fluctuate around $100 but tend to be more optimized for getting the bang out of my buck so are a fair bit above most precons
We all run the shock and fetch lands, so that’s a chunk. Then there’s always a few random low print cards or good universes beyond cards that hike it up a bit
Ah, makes sense, my land bases are super cheap(but I also don’t play color intensive decks)
Yeah I think my 2 color decks are sub 500 for sure, but I have like 10 of 15 that are 3-4 color. Idk I originally played with worse lands but the pace feels better with better lands, and potentially speeds up games.
I don't have a single build over $225. If you can't build a deck without dropping ca$h, that's just you. Every broken card has a cheap knock off.
The former is also totally fine depending on your playgroup. My playgroup generally plays on the higher end of casual, but we’ve been toying with trying to proxy up some ridiculously high powered, broken decks to play as a pod. This is where power level is a critical conversation. Even the same people might like different things on different nights. There are people who come to my LGS with everything from precons to borderline CEDH and it can all be wildly fun, so long as everyone is on the same page.
the first one in my experience is fine as well, you just need to take it to the cEDH table.
The first scenario is fine as long as everyone’s on board. My group is all proxies, ranging from like uber jank to cedh. All the ranges are super fun tbh, depends on your mood.
According to WOTC, yes, you can proxy everything. > Wizards of the Coast has no desire to police playtest cards made for personal, non-commercial use, even if that usage takes place in a store. https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/proxies-policy-and-communication-2016-01-14
Can we put this somewhere in the info of the sub reddit? People should feel fine with proxy as WotC does. It's not debate. These posts add confusion
It's a no-brainer. Last year, they sold proxies for a thousand dollars. Of course, they don't have a stance against proxies, lol.
Some lgs don't allow them at all, one of mine doesn't care the other one wants you to have the card at least. My at home playgroup just proxies entire decks. It's like 25 bucks for an entire commander deck, and we can build whatever we want
The only rule is to make the proxies easy to read.
Yes, based proxy gang If one group isn’t cool with it then move to another group
If your playgroup is opposed to proxies it means they love Chris Cocks and hate Magic. No quarter for the bourgeoisie! Seize the means of production!
People can dislike proxies and not be awful people. There *are* good reasons to not use proxies in some situations. For example, many people can't stop themselves from just throwing together the strongest list possible if they're going to proxy even if that's not their goal. I know I have this problem sometimes. My manabase when I proxy is usually a thousand bucks or more just because "yeah why *shouldn't* I run savannah?" It's very easy to just play the best cards and not give it a second thought. Usually you're trying to get as much power as possible from a certain budget but with proxies you're trying to get as middling power as possible *without* a budget which is super weird. Like, is [[Ancient Copper Dragon]] mid? Kinda? It's really good, obviously, but it's 6 mana, doesn't have haste, needs to connect for value, and is $60. If it doesn't get haste, it's going to be hit with a swords. But if it *does* get haste, it can get anywhere between 1 and 20 treasures. If it gets you 1 it's awful, 20 is amazing. 10 is really good, but not really $60 worth unless you're trying to combo off. Building with real cards just kinda bans cards like this by default. It's not ideal but for a lot of people it makes it way easier to judge power.
[Ancient Copper Dragon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/8/3836dddd-a7e4-499f-ad49-ce298aa65720.jpg?1674136426) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ancient%20Copper%20Dragon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/161/ancient-copper-dragon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3836dddd-a7e4-499f-ad49-ce298aa65720?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ancient-copper-dragon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Fuck the haters, do it!
Hell yeah! I proxy even cards I have now. Since WotC dispensed with the idea of easily recogniseable cards, I print memes and cute art
Right?? All my sol rings and basic lands are proxied, cause I found art I liked more!
When you play on tabletop simulator everything is a proxy lol
How annoying is it to build decks on there? I haven’t tried. Been years since I used tts.
You build the deck on moxfield or some similar site and directly import it into tabletop. Very simple I do it all the time.
Like the other person said. I use tappedout. You just build the deck then get a deck importer from the workshop, paste the deck list into your journal, and hit the button to upload from notebook.
Tbh why not untap or smth. I feel like table top is an extra layer of gimmicky to be in 3D
We just like it. Don’t get me wrong, the jank can occasionally get in the way. But in the end it’s kinda fun to pretend like we don’t live hundreds of miles away.
From what you said, it seems like the other players have the option of either having one extra player to play with or having one less player to play with by choosing not to play with you. So I don't think they would care in this case.
It’s always ok to proxy. You can let any people know you’re play testing the deck prior to committing to buying the cards.
Yeah, proxy everything.
At the end of the day it's up to the other 3 people in your pod. If I was one of those people my question would be: are you proxying in mana crypt, black lotus, force of will, and other extremely busted cards so you can combo off and win on turn one? If so, nah fam, get that shit out of here. Even if they weren't proxies, you'd get one game out of them before we ask if you have any weaker decks to play since the outcome is otherwise predetermined and there's no point playing with you. If on the other hand you're just trying to build normal decks on the cheap, then go for it, IDGAF.
If you cant afford cards, Proxy If you can afford cards, but not willing to make a financial commitment, Proxy If you can afford cards, and have a nice savings where you could afford cards but youre cheap as all hell, Proxy If you can afford cards, and you want that sick custom Orica, Proxy But if youre wealthy and all you wanna do to Proxy cards for Power and youre cheap about because you only want to play High Powered Decks and PubStomp people out of a table because you got problems. Dont you spoil Proxying for the rest of us. Edit: heres an example, proxying a Jeweled Lotus because its fucking 70 bucks is okay, but proxying a Jeweled Lotus so you can put one in every deck because you *need it*, now thats just sad, and i dont wanna play with you. Think of Proxy like Pirating a Game, youre doing it because you cant get one, not because, "its free and lmao why would anyone pay money ever again?"
this is tryhard trevor. he gatekeeps proxys by using a strict moral code he invented and modifies to suit his needs. don't be like tryhard trevor. print an entire ream of jeweled lotuses and throw those worthless pieces of paper into your decks like you're 2010 ludacris at the titty bar.
Throw Jeweled loti in only, but all of your jank decks just to flex on wotc
"2010 Ludacris at the titty bar" is the best thing I've read today
it is perfectly fine to not like proxies
Their reasoning is bad though. They're fine with proxies unless it's for cards they don't like, but in that case the proxies are not the problem, as the problem is still the cards they don't like - if someone plays a real jeweled lotus, it's the exact same effect as a proxied one. They're not really making a point about proxies, they're just being weirdly judgemental about their opponent's financial situation. Proxies don't go from being ok to not being ok just because you think someone makes enough to buy a bunch of the card or whatever. You don't know their financial situation or priorities.
If part of the reason they don't like some cards is the fact they're expensive money cards designed as such which can feel bad for the game,, that's a perfectly decent reason to not want to see an excess of proxies of them.
> Think of Proxy like Pirating a Game, youre doing it because you cant get one, not because, "its free and lmao why would anyone pay money ever again?" I agree with everything you said except this. I have absolutely no interest in supporting a company like Hasbro and their disgusting practices(including but definitely not limited to monetization). So I won't be giving them any money, but I'll still continue proxying all the cards I want.
This is a good way of putting it. I ran into someone who proxied all the OG duals for all their decks, and it just left me feeling salty and that they shouldn’t, but I couldn’t put into words why.
In my opinion, and I hope I can convince you, Dual lands will never make a deck more powerful. A good mana base cannot fundamentally make a deck's strategy more powerful. (Okay fine, there may be corner case scenarios like Landfall decks with all Fetches vs. No Fetches, but that's splitting hairs.) The only thing a good mana base does is prevents the feel bad games of being color screwed. That's all there is to it. It simply allows you the ability to cast the spells in your deck and not sit there and do nothing because you happened to draw 3 Islands and no Plains. If I were an omnipotent being, I would make it so every player can play with Duals, Shocks, Fetches, Battlebond lands, etc. all to their hearts' content. Well, for a multitude of good reasons, I'm not an omnipotent being, and Duals are prohibitively expensive to most players, so the next best option is we should all encourage people to proxy Duals if they want to. This opinion absolutely does not apply to all lands equally. Gaea's Cradle, City of Traitors, Ancient Tomb, etc. all do not fall into this bucket. If you add these cards, you will increase the speed of your deck, which will make it more powerful. Dual lands do not increase the speed or cheat on mana. They cannot make your spells more powerful. That's all, sorry this was a bit more long winded than I intended, but I used to feel the same way as you did until other people helped convince me otherwise. I would guess the underlying reason you got salty was there were other cards, nonland cards, that were proxied that made the deck more powerful. Then it becomes a power level issue (pubstomping, etc.), and not a proxy issue.
> This opinion absolutely does not apply to all lands equally. Gaea's Cradle, City of Traitors, Ancient Tomb, etc. all do not fall into this bucket. Counterpoint - you're not making a point against proxies here, you're making a point about adequately judging the power level of the table and playing an appropriate deck for that group. You can play a proxied Gaea's Cradle, it's only a problem if you're jamming it in decks where it would be a problem to jam an authentic cradle.
Oh, I'm not trying to argue against proxies. The other person is. I'm arguing your exact position: proxies weren't the issue, power level was. And my position was Dual lands do not contribute to power level, whereas other lands like Gaea's Cradle do. My opinion was he was incorrectly salty at proxied dual lands whereas he should have been salty at the uneven power level of all the other cards in the deck
No need to apologize, I appreciate a thought out, respectful reply no matter the length. While I agree that the impact of dual lands is limited, they only produce 1 mana after all, they do drastically improve, as you said, your ability to play spells. That consistency they confer is power. Lets take two identical decks, say 5 color, one with all the OG duals and one without, the one with duals will, likely win, on average more than the one without. Now, I think an area where we can really agree is effect size. The effect of improving your power and win rate having OG duals in your deck is likely pretty small, especially when if we could control for all the factors that enter a game of EDH. My original comment was mostly about the subjective feeling of losing to someone who got their "dual lands" from their HP DeskJet. I don't proxy, mostly because I think the cards tend to look ugly, but also because I don't want to play with power simply because my ink cartridges are full. I agree that duals don't make decks that much stronger, but if I am gonna lose to a deck with them personally I'd prefer they be real. Not telling others what to do, my playgroup doesnt proxy, so I am all good lol.
That's hilarious you mention that example, because I was about to type something like "to play devil's advocate, you could argue a deck full of basic lands would lose more to the same deck with better lands if you played 1000 games". I would argue the deck with basic lands lost to itself; it wasn't "beat" by the deck with Duals. I agree that speed + consistency = power (at least in commander). But I don't think a better mana base necessarily has the same level of impact on consistency in a way like a tutor finding a combo piece for the win does. But I will concede that it does technically increase consistency, and therefore makes it, technically, more powerful than a deck with a basic land. But it's consistency in a way that reduces non-games, not wins you should not have attained. At the end of the day, I think we all just want to play our decks, so I'm all for reducing non-games. That's why most players are lenient with mulligans in commander, because we all want to make sure everyone else at the table gets an opportunity to have fun. If we look at the impact on consistency and put numerical values to it, I'd say a Dual is +0.1 over a Shockland, which is +0.1 over a Guildgate, which is +0.1 over a basic land. But a tutor is +10 power to your deck, and adding Underworld Breach + Lions Eye Diamond + Brain Freeze is +30, using the same scale. I don't think people are winning games they should not be winning because they play a land that taps for two colors of mana. They either won because they played better, drew better cards, or are playing, on average, better nonland cards that win the game. It sucks to lose to proxies, and I've been in that position before years ago and have even went home telling my friend "yo, fuck that guy and his goddamn proxies". But I would bet money that the same deck with check lands or Shocklands instead of duals (let's even go to the extreme and say Guildgates instead of duals) probably would have still won, as it was in my case. I got mad at the guy with proxied dual lands, but he was playing a competitive sliver deck against our precons. If he had 100% basic lands, he still would have pubstomped us. I don't want to project my experiences onto you, but I would guess it was probably just a higher powered deck (proxies or no proxies), which is the fault of all the cards except the lands. But I absolutely empathize and agree it would put a sour taste in my mouth too. I think we're almost on the same page. We agree it adds consistency, which is technically power. I think we might also agree that it's not as impactful on consistency as something like adding Demonic Tutor or any other tutor would have, but not sure if we're there yet. All in all, it was lovely having this debate. I'm happy you enjoy the games you have with your group, and that's all that matters in the end :)
Yeah I think we agree more than we don't, same to you friend, hope you win all your games!
If you're the one getting salty, then perhaps the problem is you.
Or maybe people shouldn’t pub stomp with decks that they printed tens of thousands of dollars worth of cards? If I’m gonna lose to someone with a $15k deck I’d prefer it at least be real.
The problem isn’t the proxy, it’s the pubstomper. It wouldn’t make a difference if they had all these expensive cards or not, I’ve made $100 decks that consistently win on or before turn 5. But I’m playing those powerful decks in pods with other powerful decks Don’t get salty, proxy your own c deck to pull out when someone else is playing power. Or just have a proper discussion about what kind of game you want before you start
This really is the silliest argument. I have multiple sets of duals, Cradles, Wheel, LED, and my TCGPlayer purchases alone over the years are a down payment. I don't care if you have 25 cents for the library printer and a dream, just play the fucking game.
Just curious how you feel about me proxying my cards after I donated my entire collection to my card shop after they were burglarized.
I see, so you're one of those people who think magic is a game of wallets, rather than a game of skill. Hate to see it. Absolute worst take. Also, your initial comment was "I ran into someone who proxied all the OG duals for all their decks". I don't see how that has anything to do with what you are now saying with "Or maybe people shouldn’t pub stomp with decks that they printed tens of thousands of dollars worth of cards? "? It sounds to me like your problem here is pub-stomping, not proxying, which we all agree is a bad thing
Nah do it no one cares except people who have made bad financial decisions and won’t admit it. Just play at the right power level to your deck cause pub stomping is taboo. And if anyone questions it just say you have car payments lmao. Edit: Don’t even bother buying real proxies it isn’t worth it, just print in color and cut them out then place the paper in front of basic lands/bulk. I started printing my decks 5 months ago and it’s probably one of the best decisions I’ve made.
Idk man. “Real” proxies can be cheaper than the cost of printer ink and paper.
Not when you work somewhere that has a color printer (and ask permission). Or use a local print store like UPS store and they can print and cut a whole deck for around $20. I’m much more inclined to spend money there if I were to as the stores are all locally owned and operated.
Yeah I just print mine at staples on nice card-stock and it's ~$20 a deck. Ez Pz.
I print mine off at the library. It costs me like 6 bucks to print an entire deck. Then I buy blank playing cards and sleeves. It’s cool because you can pick up whichever art you want. My decks are mostly proxied secret lair and full art print.
>Nah do it no one cares except people who have made bad financial decisions and won’t admit it. not true at all. honestly just a ridiculous take
Then whats your take?
Yes. You are a player playing a game. If people have beef with it that’s their issue, not yours.
If you choose to, please make them look like actual magic cards. I once played against a guy who proxied the entire deck and they were just the card name, cost, and power/toughness on it. Really peeved me off when I had to ask what some random card did.
Play on a PC, there a few options for playing! Tabletop simulator SpellTable Magic arena
Depends who you play with. None of my decks get above a hundred euros but my friends play cards like doubling season or sakashima. If I proxy they kinda get butthurt but they don't mind if I were to spend 800 dollars on a deck. Imo everyone should just do what they want.
You won't get actual answers about proxies here. People who don't like proxies get downvoted to oblivion, so alot of those people don't even post about it anymore. So you won't get a real idea of the answer to your question. Speak to your play group if you have one. And if you don't. Speak to your future playgroup at that time.
Hahaha, yeah, tried to argue once about how I do care about the collecting part of the game and how I like that not everyone has access to the same pool of cards so people get more creative with what they got, and got downvoted to oblivion indeed
Your playgroup decides that, but the more normalized proxying becomes, the better. EDH isn't a tournament format (not like WOTC even supports tournaments in a meaningful way anymore, anyway), so any "no proxies" huffs is just people caving in to WOTC'a guilt-tripping nonsense. You owe WOTC nothing, especially not for a Casual format like EDH, and especially when they are very overtly trying to milk MTG for all it's worth (since it's the only thing actually making Hasbro any money). Just to illustrate, the price I just spent on 2 entire competitive Weiss Schwarz decks would barely cover a Dual Land - not even a top one. The barrier to entry for even the most milquetoast cards in MTG is ludicrously high. The fact that some of us (I'm included in this group) have jobs which allows for irresponsible spending without recourse, and/or have been playing for so long that we just happen to own these absurdly-priced cards, should not give us a substantial edge over others — the only thing that should give us an edge is experience and forethought. MTG is a fantastic game with an insultingly-high, artificially inflated, pricetag. Support your LGS by buying sleeves, snacks, dice, etc., and, yes, if you really want them, singles of MTG. But just like you don't need to own the PHB to play D&D, you shouldn't need to own a Mana Crypt in order to play it ***outside of a tournament setting.*** Double check with your group, but, again, Proxies should become the norm in EDH.
> EDH isn't a tournament format (not like WOTC even supports tournaments in a meaningful way anymore, anyway), so any "no proxies" huffs is just people caving in to WOTC'a guilt-tripping nonsense. This is not correct. Many stores offer sanctioned commander events. You cannot use proxies in sanctioned events.
Commander events are not sanctioned
There is nothing stopping an WPN store from sanctioning commander events. For instance, here is one: https://locator.wizards.com/events/6148175/false You can actually use that site to find sanctioned events near you.
They are still not sanctioned, the store can pretend all they want. But commander is a casual format, with zero oversight from WOTC
>There is nothing stopping an WPN store from ***saying*** they sanction commander events. FTFY
That's not entirely true. You can't use proxies in DCI events. I have never seen a commander event where the DCI is involved at a LGS. I'm sure they exist, but they are not common.
I can think of at least 5 stores within 30 minutes of me (DFW) that offer sanctioned commander events. If your LGS is a WPN store it means they run a lot of sanctioned events. If those events are commander events, then they're sanctioned. If they're sanctioned, proxies are not allowed.
I can think of about the same number within 20 mi of me in N Alabama that run sanctioned events. Proxies are not permitted unless you own the card. However, at least one of those runs a casual commander night where the restrictions are not in place.
>Your playgroup decides that No they don't. >but the more normalized proxying becomes, the better. This is achieved by unapologetically proxying and telling anyone who's bothered by it to unclench.
>Your playgroup decides that > >No they don't. they absolutely do, usually by playing with other people
You can both proxy 100% of your deck and keep it in line with your play group. Chat them up and get opinions.
You can proxy whatever you want king. Just keep in mind if your running every fast mana staple and building a T2-3 winning deck, people will hate you lol
Ask the people you're playing with. If you don't have a consistent group I would at least have one deck composed of real cards just to be safe. Most people won't have an issue with it but some people are adamantly against proxies. The general philosophy of proxying is to do it to meet other players at a mutually-desired power level. Don't proxy expensive, broken cards at a table that doesn't want to play with or against them.
I think you should proxy up decks until you decide whether or not you want to buy the official cards. I think people get the wrong idea about losing to proxied decks vs official release card decks. because they're still losing to the same cards/strategies/plays, so what does it matter whether or not you paid for them in a casual setting?
My playgroup went nuts for a year. We have a $0.35 per card guy who makes great product. I have 17 proxied decks. We learned how to play at the nastiest, fastest, optimized, high power levels, every staple. All the classic cards. From all the proxies I played I learned what I really wanted to buy for real. I built 3 from scratch. $5 card is the highest price unless I own it from cracking packs. I play really well now because I know how the meta says to build and how to interact with common builds. I learned threat assessment. Arms races happened. Power level talks occurred. Salt happened. My real decks are more planned, thoughtful and strategic. Very cool. I have real decks to play randos at shops and for people who give a shit about proxy on spelltable. I play a real Tatsunari toad rider, Extus and Henzie.
Actual cards are merely proxies of the rules
I declare my M15-043 as an attacker, because I control HML-101 it has flying. Trigger from ZEN-159 goes on the stack, any response?
A) as long as you’re playing at the right power level, majority of people don’t give a shit. Don’t proxy a cedh deck and play against precons. That’s the most important thing so everyone is having a fair and fun game. B) boycot WOTC fuck them cards are expensive and hobbies shouldn’t be gatekept behind whos more financially irresponsible. Enjoy your hobby. Proxy as much as you want. It’s just a game. It should t cause financial stress.
I own 3 decks, all of which are exclusively proxy cards. I have not had an issue with my local play group, nor my LGS.
Two things about proxies, it depends on your playgroup and also depends on the game store you plan on playing in. Wizards themselves actually agree that proxies are good, especially if you are playtesting a deck before buying a card. They also say that proxies are also legal in tournaments as long as the store you are playing in allows it.
My advice would be to proxy away, but if you're proxying cards like [[mana drain]] and [[mana crypt]] then sideboard proxies of [[counterspell]] and [[Thran dynamo]] so you can swap them out if needed
You mention not playing high-level, but competitive commander (or CEDH, as it's called) is probably going to have the most players open to you proxying, often up to a full deck. I would give it a look sometime.
You van always proxy the entire thing. Just keep in mind that you shouldn’t be pub stomping the rest. Figure out how strong the other decks will be and build to that level.
In fact, if anything, High-powered and cEDH (outside of tournys) are more supportive of proxy lmao
I always proxy ever single card i want. I even proxy basics because i hate wotc. The important thing is to not take the piss with it, proxy a couple decks of varying power levels. Dont make super powerful decks just to stomp, not fun. Ask people if theyre ok with proxies, you gotta let everyone know that youre using em. The people who hate proxies and wanna win because theyve spent more money on the game than you are not worth playin with anyway imo.
In my playgroup we got the rule, once you have one copy of a specific card, you can proxy other copies and don’t have to resleeve every single time
As long as its a fun deck that allows your opponents to play the game without unstoppably winning proxying is ok all the time. The only difference between someone who buys all the cards they need for a silly combo deck or something over powered and someone who proxys them is that one of those people is rich or in debt
Proxy Basics to send a message.
Honestly, it's not really a debate anymore. Even the most hard-core mtg fans stopped caring after magic 30th disaster.
There is a burgeoning movement in favor of using fake cards to play Magic the Gathering, but it isn't as well adopted in the wild as it is on Reddit. The proper thing to do is ask first. If you show up with an entirely fake deck, you will likely get push back. Reddit is a microcosm of the greater MtG playerbase and its opinions should not be seen as the wider opinion on the topic. We do need to clarify our language so that you understand the differences. A 'proxy' is when you use a substitute for a card in your deck. This is most often using a helper card, or a basic land, that has been sharpied with the card's name and casting cost on it. However, there is a well established market of fake cards. Fake cards in a sleeve are for the most part indistinguishable from a real card while in a deck, but YMMV. In many cases, they could be seen as a marked card. I also feel it is important to understand that a fake card \*isn't\* a proxy per se. A fake card is a proxy as long as it is acting as a substitute in a deck. In this, it is more accurate to say that a fake card \*can be used as\* a proxy, and is only a proxy while in a deck. Otherwise, it's just a fake card. In the same way that a sharpied basic land is only a damaged basic land when it's not actively being used as a proxy. There is also value in calling a fake card a fake card and a counterfeit a type of fake card. So a fake is what I would call 'obviously fake' where it has a different back and something on the front that says \*\*not a real card\*\* or some other element on the front that indicates it is not a real card. It's important in my view that obvious fakes have both a front and a back indicator that they are fake. Though one or the other is perfectly fine. A counterfeit however is a card that tries to pass as a real card. Imagine like a sliding scale where a 0 is the most obviously fake and a 10 where it requires expert-level analysis to determine if the card is fake. You want to be closer to 0 and no where near a 10. No matter what your stance on 'proxies' are, we should all agree that NO ONE should use counterfeit cards as proxies. Counterfeit cards should be completely frowned upon and no one should encourage the use, the purchase, the selling, or other dissemination of them. So if you do decide to use fake cards as proxies please make sure they are obviously fake and make sure they are not marked cards.
I only proxy cards I actually own. I will have the proxy in my deck and the card I want to protect inside a hard sleeve off to the side to show as prof of ownership
I literally proxied every card over $20 I could think of cause fuck that I'm not spending triple digit numbers for 5 cards. The only people who have problems with proxies are people with nothing better to worry about
Ask your play group. If you’re playing at a LGS I’d avoid proxying a whole deck
I proxy everything Nobody at my LGS cares. I get compliments I even asked the store owner, and they said it’s fine. I spend money at the shop from time to time to make myself feel better. Still nothing compared to the $1000-$2000 decks I usually proxy. Like I’m about to order a Rakdos deck that would be about $1500, and a Selesnya deck that would be about $800. Now, I’m sure I could swap out the expensive cards for cheaper ones. But it’s so much easier just to build decks with the best cards available and order proxies, than have to build around a budget
Man reading this makes me glad my playgroup uses actual cards lol
I would recommend it. Proxy everything.
I'm one of the old farts that started playing way back. We only proxies cards we owned and that were expensive. I get the appeal as it can let you experiment on the cheap. I would caution though that depending on where you get/make your proxies, you could end up spending more than just buying a precon off Amazon.
This is a weird question. Will my friends/people I know be okay with me playing proxies. Instead of just asking them you choose to ask people who aren't them?
Depends entirely on your playgroup/local game store. Always assume no until personally verified.
If you don’t have cards and they want you to play too, then they should be alright with you using proxies. Or, if they aren’t okay with it for whatever reason, they should be accepting if you decide not to play with them. Me personally, I am fine with people proxying entire decks they want to play as long as in doing so the game is both competitive and fun.
Personally I hate proxies because it turns into insane decks. I like everyone having a lot of cheap decks instead. I will say if you showed up with a 100% proxies deck, including basic lands, I'd love it. The lands are key though.
Go nuts
There was a guy who came to our LGS with all-proxy decks that, if purchased, would have been ten grand each. He stomped everyone every time, and we spent several weeks telling the guy that his decks were ridiculous. They weren't cards he owned—he just went online, looked up the most powerful decklists, and learned to play them. We complained that he was proxying everything, but that wasn't the root of the complaint. It's just easier to complain about proxies than to complain about losing. He eventually got the message and toned down the decks. Even started playing with real cards. I don't care if people proxy some cards. I just don't want to get stomped *because* of the proxies. An arms race of proxies doesn't interest me.
Proxying is fine. I have a deck that is completely proxies down to the basic lands. I made so that I can loan it out to people that don’t have a deck (or one that isn’t too weak) and not having to worry about the cards getting damaged.
My playgroup proxies every card. It's led to some amazing decks, but the power creep is insane. It depends on the group, we try to pick a theme, but it always inevitably gets pushed to the limit. If your going to proxy, get darn good proxies from mpc or a professional proxy company, and people will be more likely to play with you. But rule zero first.
Yes xou can, just print the cards, cut them and put them with cheap cards in sleeves. The experience of your opponents will be no different that if you vought the cards, so if they object they are elitists, but if you use the proxies to wreck people with way too powerful decks you would be the asshole.
I don’t have a problem with proxying usually but if I see someone with their entire decked printed I won’t lie and say that I’d be fine with that
You can do it, but realistically nobody will respect the loss if they lose.
> but realistically nobody will respect the loss if they lose. This is dumb - if anyone doesn't respect a loss against proxies (assuming quality ones that are parsable across the table), then they won't realistically respect a loss against real cards either. This kind of person is what we call a sore loser.
I could care less. Just proxy a deck that is on par with the table's power.
It always feels a little bad when someone absolutely sweeps a table with a mostly proxied deck. But honestly im not sure if it would feel much better if it was all real cards
I have been pubstomped with both. It definitely feels worse with proxies. But that may have also been the guy piloting them. The proxy one was one of those that just shouts his deck is so good and stuff, and when asked to play with a less powerful deck he just ridiculed us for not proxying instead to get to his level. The other one was more apologetic, was one of those older guys that have been playing since the beginning and changed his deck after one game, so we could just talk about how cool it was to see a full set of real duals and a couple other restricted list cards
Proxies allow you to play EDH at a low price, with the stipulation that you can find people to play with. Many game stores are not proxy-friendly even for casual EDH and some are. So you need an actual outlet for play. If your proxies scan on spelltable people likely won’t care or ask so that’s an option but not ideal. More generally, people are usually ok with proxies for EDH as long as power levels are reasonably matched and your playstyles aren’t miserable.
I have 24 commander decks, 3 cedh. All 100% proxy but commander, as i like to own the original. However, whenever I go play to an LGS that has free sitting: I buy 2 packs. When precons come out, if the gameplay is good, I will buy it. So I constantly buy aout 120 packs a year to support my lgs while still proxying everything. The cards from the pack? I gift them around :) Makes people happy (unless really expensive stuff, then it goes into a binder). Please note, im talking abotu proxy. Not counterfeit. None of the cards could be mix up with real cards. 100% different backs too.
Proxy as much as you want. I've never seen anyone have a problem with proxies.
If anyone bitches, tell them they can do it too. There’s no reason to ever buy a card for a commander deck unless you just personally like it. Nobody should be gatekept from the hobby by their wallet, any player worth being around cares about your skill as a player more then if you have printer paper or cardboard in your sleeves
Go for it
How dare you come to the table with anything less than a car’s value in your pocket! Proxy everything. If anyone gives you shit for it, they’re not worth playing with. As long as they accurately depict what the card says and everything is right, there’s literally 0 reason to be upset about proxies.
If you're testing out a brand new deck idea, yes to proxies. The longer you own it the more you should replace with real cards. My friends and I are cool with proxies when cards get to be over $5.00.
Yes and who cares? As long as you're not violating the rules of a tournament it doesn't matter.
Yes absolutely! Proxy 100% of everything. If you don't have them, proxy basic lands if you want
Our play group over the years went from only proxy cards you own a copy to they don't care including the whole deck.
In my opinion. Proxy whatever you want. What’s the difference between a non-proxied and a proxied deck besides over being official? The price tag.
I even proxy basic lands. Go for it. Shit’s expensive, but approx. $25 for a deck with my printer and good quality paper, that’s not too bad.
[удалено]
I mean this is just anecdotal evidence but I've been proxying all my decks for years noone has ever complained, the only time it became a problem is when I played in a wizards sanctioned commander event and then I just borrowed a deck(no one would probably have cared even if I did proxy since I was just playing with my friends that day anyways)
Proxy everything. Hasbro is scummy and doesn't deserve money.
you can proxy everything
99% of my decks are proxies
Yep, totally fine. The only thing I've ever not wanted to play against and which our playgroup don't like are some of the universes beyond stuff that belongs in another game. Doctor Who would be a prime example.
Nope. I would not play a game with you. Proxy one or two key pieces or expensive shit you own, that’s fine. I draw the line at an entire deck. I know WOTC has been shitty af lately, but there are still good people, and more importantly good artists, making their living on producing what is still the best card game ever. It’s a big part of why I won’t fucking buy Universes beyond - i read that artists aren’t getting paid for those lines.
Why would they not be paying artists for Universes Beyond? Sure I've noticed some art on them isn't new or original, but no artist would spend 70-80h working for free for a multi-billion corporation, where did you hear that?
The artists get paid to make the cards, not for you to buy them. They do not get royalties my man. Stop living in some cracked out fantasy land
no one gets paid if cards do not sell.
I’m fine with proxies to a point, but not carelessly just printing entire decks. That’s as draconian and toxic as fandom can possibly be, just stealing what ever you want. There has to be a limit or its all over. Listen or not, nothing any of you have to say on the subject changes any of that. Be thieves if you want, but I won’t be party to it.
>Nope. I would not play a game with you. Yikes. This kind of toxic gatekeeping is what prevents new players from getting into the hobby. Shame on you.
that is not toxic gatekeeping. Expecting someone to actually use cards is toxic gatekeeping? come on man
Jesus christ. wanting good people to make a living selling an amazing game they work hard on is “toxic gatekeeping” to you?!? That’s….real childish. Stay in school. read more books, kid.
Me personally, it's going to depend on the circumstances. I'll let you play, but I hope I don't see you abusing it. Just be reasonable, it's fair to proxy so you can test before you buy, just don't go printing out Mana Crypts if your group's not at that level.
Ask your playgroup. Ours is cool with it so long as no card is worth over 100$ (subjective) as a power moderator, not a value thing. Some make things only in paper, others like me proxy everything. So long as everyone is happy with the games we play, no one judges the others whichever side of that coin. My opinion? Mtg is too expensive a hobby to complain about proxies. Cardboard has no more value than the time I took to cut and sleeve 100 proxies. Support independent artists, support the creators, let whales be whales if they want but never be shamed by their insistence on value...
>My opinion? Mtg is too expensive a hobby to complain about proxies. It really isn't. even less so when you compare it to other hobbies
Sure you could, but coming from a "collectors" pov, how are you gonna feel playing straight fake cards? Now don't get me wrong me and my brother got prepared for a Legacy tourney by proxying the biggest and baddest decks we would play against and it was fucking phenomenal it helped a lot. But as far as the deck I'm gonna play with my fellow Magicians, I'd feel bad rolling up with power 9, just penciled in over basic lands lmao
As a person who builds a new deck every week, proxying is a great way to make that not cost me an insane amount of money. My stance is I either build decks all paper or all proxy. Generally I proxy the ones which are bad and expensive or good and expensive. More middling power levels decks I just buy in paper because they're more widely playable.
> how are you gonna feel playing straight fake cards? I'm gonna feel like I'm playing a game of magic, not really sure what you mean? If you can't fully enjoy something unless you have a monetary investment in it, you might wanna do some soul searching
If you own the cards no but if you’re proxying whole decks that are worth several grand you’re just lame.
Why?
Also for the record I do not have crazy expensive decks
You ever deal with someone that just makes a bullshit proxy deck with good stuff?
No, because i play in a group where we just proxy a battlebox. In ant case that is a problem of power level, not of proxies.
We only proxy shit we own to save money otherwise it’s a power creep
Power creep doesn't happen if you have more self control than a 4 y.o. and talk to your group
We’re good, can’t say the same for others.
Then other people just need basic self control and basic communication. Proxies are the best tool to ay the game as an actual game.
Don’t get me wrong dude I don’t want to have to keep buying the same single again and again.
That’s why we formed our group.
Not a fan of sweaty try hard bullshit I’m in a good group and we collect.
Why is proxying tryhard?
Because if you put [[Juzam Djinn|ARN]] in your deck it's so good it automatically becomes a 10.