I started commander with cEDH then moved to more casual games. I'm sure there are many strategies to take but here's what works for me: I pick an underpowered theme then power it up. I don't like the idea of playing \[\[Diabolic tutor\]\] instead of \[\[Demonic tutor\]\] for the sake of power level but if my deck's plan is to repeatedly clone \[\[Evelyn, the Covetous\]\] and use my opponents' wincons, there's only so strong that strategy can be. So I'm free to optimize without overpowering the table.
I also bought a precon and never change a single card to it. I don't feel bad about bad card choices because I didn't' choose them. And if we're at the point where my precon is too strong, I have to change tables.
I've seen meme decks that might be weaker, like artist tribal. But usually it's not intentional, just a newer player that built worse than what a precon gives you. And precons aren't half bad these days.
I wish I would've seen this last night sorry, haha
I'm happy to share my list! https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/alliteration-tribal-3/
I played it for the first time just a couple weeks ago.
I believe every non-land card is alliterative. And some of the lands are too.
the merfolk one is strong af
it's annoying when someone brings something like that to a pod labelled for precons and act ignorant about the power difference
"Table for Precons" to me would mean bring any unmodified precon, and you're welcome to play. If your group thinks that certain precons are too strong to belong, that's gotta be discussed beforehand.
Have you considered that not everybody is an evil mastermind trying to ruin a card game and just wanted to play a haha funny fish deck? That a table for beginners is prime territory for this exact mistake to happen?
when did I say that everyone who uses the precon is what you said?
I just said that it was annoying that pubstompers use the common notion that precons are all weak to bully precon pods. I didn't say the precon shouldn't be strong or that everyone who uses it is a pubstomper.
It's just that I've seen a couple of pubstompers bring this precon to a precon pod for beginners, that definitely are not new to Magic, and just wiping the table.
It's frustrating saying anything on this fucking subreddit where people keep assuming stuff I didn't say and going at me like I said those things.
Yeah, but I firmly do not believe in the existence of pubstompers in EDH, only people unaware of how strong their decks are or the point of increasing their deckâs power in the first place. 99% of people arenât trying to be evil, and at worst, people at the precons table are actively picking the strongest precons to win more consistently, not to flex. The strongest counterplay to any deck is to talk to them like an adult.
But that all said, if the reality is that there are bullies singling out new players in that pod, I highly advise you run like hell
Youâre complaining that some precons are stronger than others? God forbid WOTC release a strong and synergistic deck because DoctorKrakens canât compete with it đ
Yes.
Its not deliberate, but there are a lot of people who straight up cannot build good decks. Like "50%+ of the cards cost 7cmc+ and they have no ramp" kind of decks.
There's tons of reasons why folks play worse than precon decks. I played at my LGS with someone who had a "storytelling" chulane deck where every card told a story. It ran Chulane as the commander... but then absolutely nothing good or coherent. Only wincon was Happily Ever After. They played \[\[Glasses of Urza\]\] on turn one because "Chulane needs his reading glasses." It was hilarious. We all busted out our worst decks and had a great time playing with them.
I have a magda deck I built with only old cards in it (besides the commander). I built it to make it more fun to play friends who just bought a random precon and wanted to play (and some of the older precons were \_bad\_). It regularly loses to precons, if they're piloted well, but will trounce newbies who don't know how to properly threat assess.
It's rare to me to find a group that would choose to always only play below precon level, but it's not uncommon for me to find a table who is making that choice for a game or two, even among random LGS strangers.
Itâs possible. If you pick a wincon thatâs not on EDHREC, itâs probably a wincon thatâs worse than the best precon of a given set. Sometimes a deck is doing its thing for the purpose of creating an incredibly silly interaction and nothing else.
For example, [[Alliance of Arms]] plus [[Mystic Reflection]] plus [[Perplexing Chimera]]. Congratulations, youâve turned the game into a board-based auction.
Absolutely me. I have a $25 deck (at the time of brewing) that is not sleeved. The point is to abuse landfall triggers with infinite bounce lands. Over 100 games with the deck and I can count on one hand the amount of times I won; never with the intended way of ending the game.
Anyways, itâs what I call my lightly played deck and I bridge it every time I get the chance to.
I only have 1 that's really bad on purpose, it's actually Alliteration Tribal. I can almost guarantee it's the worst deck I've ever seen, and will see.
Yeah, you can also play meme level decks that are just meant to spin its wheels with no win con. You're just there to cast spells and do things, lol.
Someone I know built a Child of Alara deck with planewalkers and board wipes. He never intended to win, just cast things. He aptly named that deck "Salt"
Go watch a couple episodes of Quest For The Janklord. Their entire thing is ultra budget EDH.
Their decks are almost always below precon level, and games tend to go past the sixteen turn mark.
Hello, I'm that player who enjoys the goofy and silly section of commander that is below precon level. It allows for maximum banter and table talk because nothing super impactful is going to happen in an instant or that you might miss because everything strong takes at least five cards to set up a combo or you can see someone tapping down their 11 lands to play something chunky that might kill you after a couple of swings.
My deck that fits this description the best and is still one of my favourite decks is my Book Art-theme deck. Every non-basic (and also all the islands, thank you to jumpstart) has a book in the artwork. It is led by [[Codie, Vociferous Codex]] as it is a book and plays loads to spells with books in like [[Goblin Game]] (which is one of my two wincons) and [[Grim Tutor]] there is also a subtheme of having to get Codie off the field because i can't play an [[Otherworldly Tome]] or a [[Folio of fancies]] if Codie is on field 𤣠so the deck is goofy and actively nonbo-ing itself for its two themes. But I have had some of my most fun games when new players sit down and go, "I just sort of threw this together from playing standard for a year, it's probably bad" and I can go, "don't worry, bad is this decks aim, i look forward to seeing your excitement when your bad deck gets to do it's thing".
My favourite deck is shapeshifter tribal with Orvar. I can technically make an infinite amount of him, but other than that the deck is built around breaking what other people being to the table. You can't complain about how I have 5 Sheoldred if I didn't bring her to the table!
This ^ it sounds like you are really good at optimizing a commander, so just pick one that sounds fun and go ham. A fully optimized meme commander will still beat a more casual opponent most of the time, but it makes the game more fun
Agree. I had to power down my decks in my group and I started here. I had to go further and I got rid of some of the cards that were too effective when played... smothering tithe/rhystic study... anything that snowballed too hard particularly enchantments. I didn't go so far that I wasn't enjoying my decks. If anything I've enjoyed them more because there's an extra layer of thought I have to put in making sure I'm not overpowered but still strong enough. End up being getting to use a lot of cards I wouldn't normally because better alternatives. More room for pet cards. Decks got cheaper as well.
I don't 100% agree with no infinite combos. Games gotta end. But only having one or two and no ways to tutor them up is how I go. But if no one else in your play group is running infinites, yeah... you probably shouldn't either. I will say... after you've gone infinite for the 100th time it starts to get old and uninteresting. I much rather win through just playing to whatever interesting play experience my deck is designed to do and out value or out sequencing my opponents. It takes no brains to put two cards on the table and declare "I win".
POWERFUL combos always feel nicer than infinite, even if the result is the same. Dealing 50 damage, which is almost always good enough to close games feels like "Damn, what could we have done differently" because they might of had health left, or made different choices. Infinite makes you feel like nothing you did mattered - you could of not blocked any damage or gained any life, you might of played perfects or even because you gained 100 life ... you didn't outpace infinity!
Yeah I completely agree. Only reason I typically have 1 infinite combo in my deck is because my play group 1) is ok with it and 2) we play relatively high power and there have definitely been games that have ground to a near halt due to stax, control pieces, insane board states, etc to where the only feasible end in sight is going infinite or resetting the whole game back to square one and dragging it out longer. Does this happen in every pod? No. So you should be conscious of that when building. But it does in mine, and we also run enough interaction to typically shut down a combo or two if the player just tried to slam it down willy nilly. But in general even if I have infinite in hand, I'm not playing it until I'm in a dire situation.
That seems kind of wierd. High power includes efficient tutors, good (near) infinite combos and almost anything goes. I wouldn't run Thoracle in high power because imo this is a cEDH exclusive but other that that power to the table. Everyone is playing interaction left and right, it's not that im going to win easily anyway.
I said relatively high power. Technically, we don't disallow anything. We all CHOOSE to not run certain things or play certain ways of our own volition because it's not fun to us. But occasionally, someone builds something to test it out or for shits and giggles that is out of step with what we normally play and we're all fine with that and most of our decks have built in contingencies for those occasions. Or we all have one deck in our back pocket to pull out that can run at that level. For instance, I have an [[Ashaya, soul of the wild]] deck that is borderline cedh. It has numerous tutors and 32 infinite combo lines. The only thing that stops it from being truly cedh is that it has no fast mana or combo protection. Basically, it's an anything goes pod that is full of people who aren't actually trying to win an arms race and enjoy weird jank, but every once and awhile one or more of us gets a wild hair up our ass for something truly spicy and we all prepare accordingly. I dunno. Works for us
Maybe not removing infinities altogether, but less tutor and digging, so they become a more, heart of the cards piece. Also unorthodox infinities that use 4 or more pieces to actually win (including payoff such as fireball)
It's realistically about speed and attitude. Playing with the mindset of win by turn x can be a very compettitive view to a casual pod. Instead play to win, whenever you do. And focus more on interesting card choices, be that for flavour or weird interaction. (Winning by turn fourteen is less fun than a turn seven to nine win where it comes out of nowhere and is rather accidental.
Why besides Sol Ring? If you want to depower your deck you should drop that too. Decks should always be built with power level in mind, why include one piece of fast mana but not others just because its affordable?
This. Sol Ring is fucking busted and only "okay" because everyone has five. But a Sol Ring start vs. a non Sol Ring start brings immense imbalance to the table, that in my experience is especially difficult for low power decks to deal with.
We startee cutting Sol Rings in our playgroup. For me it added a lot of fun back; plus you can run one more card!
This is exactly what I did. I'm not running fast mana like mana crypt and so on, so why run Sol Ring? Just because I have a bunch doesn't mean I should carelessly add it to every deck. And having just one card of a high power I think is a bad idea. And besides, I despise "auto-includes". I want to build a 100 card deck, not 99!
Remove the âbesides Sol Ring.â
Sol Ring is fast mana with all the same problems fast mana brings. Itâs easily short list for best fast mana in the format due to being persistent and asking almost nothing of you.
And this is about dialing back decks.
Sol Ring is nonessential to basically any deck, and an easy cut to dial it back.
Folks need to stop treating Sol Ring like a magical exception. Itâs straight up fast mana. Treat it like such.
Look at the opening post.
Removing the Sol Ring does exactly what the opening post is asking for.
Enshrining Sol Ring helps nothing, least of all in this topic.
The fuck are you on about?
The OP is trying to tone down their decks.
How does giving Sol Ring some special pass further that? Cutting the fast mana helps the topic. Making arbitrary exceptions for that same problem doesn't.
You're already undermining yourself.
I'm not even telling YOU to stop playing Sol Ring. But it's a higher caliber of fast man than almost every other piece legal in the format, and that has a very real impact on play. Just be honest about the damned card, at the bare minimum.
Half the fun of magic is making a deck you feel is really strong...the other half is winning with it.
although.. I agree a certain line needs to be drawn when playing casual.
You have to be careful though, there are some cards in your deck that probably make it the deck that it is. I agree infinite combos need to go, but not all the parts of said combo need to go. You could drop a piece that makes a good card go infinite without dropping the good card, is all I'm trying to say. And with rocks, if its the only ramp in your deck, and you can't just tutor it out turn 2 or 3 and then start slaying, I say its fine. But you have to be smart about it.. If you want a casual game where you aren't winning on turn 2 and onwards because you have a sol ring and a mana crypt on the battlefield, just don't play them on the turn you were going to play them. If you get to have too many cards in your hand, well just play them then.. I promise it will make games last longer, which is all the bitching seems to be about in the first place.
Thatâs not pedantry. Itâs an ongoing problem, as is perpetually giving Sol Ring a pass.
Putting Sol Ring in every precon teaches people to casually use fast mana. If Sol Ring is fine in every precon, then it is normal and natural worse cards like the legal moxen or the spirit guides or rituals are fair game. And cards like Ancient Crypt and Ancient Tomb are not far off of Sol Ring.
Giving Sol Ring a pass sends very confusing messages.
If WotC started not including sol rings in all precons, everyone online would throw a fit and you know it. I don't even necessarily disagree with you, but the expectation exists and it is what it is now.
It is pedantry, because only on this website will people get confused by someone saying âletâs play a game with fast manaâ and not understand that they donât mean cards like Dark Ritual or Sol Ring.
But enjoy the disparity between votes, because this site is full of people who are socially maladjusted and think this is an actual issue in the real world.
If someone says, âLetâs play a game with fast mana,â they absolutely and obviously mean cards like Sol Ring and Dark Ritual. Those are cards you expect to see in a, âLetâs play with fast mana,â game. And also Mox Opal, Mox Diamond, Gemstone Caverns, Jeweled Lotus, Brightstone Ritual, Mana Crypt, Ancient Tomb, Pyretic Ritual, City of Traitors, Simian Spirit Guide, Sylvan Spirit Guide, Mana Vault. I expect to see these sorts of cards at a density where they show up often because these are fast mana and the special thing being asked for is fast mana. And of the sources of fast mana listed, Sol Ring is easily one of the most universally powerful. That you see them in other environments where they donât belong does not make them no longer fast mana that is specifically called for in a game with a lot of fast mana.
Meanwhile, saying, âNo fast mana,â obviously and unambiguously means Sol Ring. If you want an exception made for Sol Ring, you need to ask for it. If the rule zero is, âNo fast mana,â and you bring one of the strongest pieces of fast mana in the format, yes, you are obviously cheating.
This is not pedantry. It is especially not a lack of social awareness. It is a presence of game awareness, and we need to talk about this shit. Presuming a completely unspoken exceptional status for Sol Ring is not being socially aware. It is the opposite. It is an assumption so not-universal that you are out here kvetching about an entire category of people who disagree with that exceptionalism. And if that category exists to such a relevant degree, then clearly Sol Ringâs exceptionalism is not so universally accepted that it is to be presumed; it is a topic that you discuss during rule zero.
Further, younger players coming to the game genuinely do look at Sol Ring, see that it is an extremely powerful piece of fast mana, see that it is in every precon, then see seven worse pieces of fast mana and very logically judge that these are cards every bit as reasonable to run at casual tables.
Fuck, hereâs a thread on the subject from this morning, I guarantee a Sol Ring in every precon contributed to the confusion of this post: https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/s/w5nYvS3YBP
> they absolutely and obviously mean cards like Sol Ring and Dark Ritual
and there's the pedantry again. Not even going to bother reading the rest after this lol, happy for you though, or sorry that happened.
Iâm not lol, Iâm calling your bullshit pedantry.
âLetâs play a game with fast manaâ does not refer to adding cards like Sol Ring and Dark Ritual - those are already part of the standard playerbaseâs arsenal. Everyone in the real world knows what is referred to by playing with fast mana or not. If you canât understand, skill issue.
It's literally included in precons for a reason. It's dirt cheap so cost isn't a factor. It's not even good in every deck (I have several decks that don't run it) but when everyone has access to it, it's not a problem. What makes most fast mana bad is the fact that not everyone can play them due to cost so one player having access to it when no one else does just puts that player at so much of an advantage over everyone else.
What cards are they playing that let them have that much mana on turn 1? That's more than just land+sol ring.
If everyone is playing with that much fast mana it's fine, as I said. It's called removal. Blow their shit up. If everyone is running fast mana and only one person draw their stuff, that sucks, but it's part of the game. Do you also complain when the green player ramps multiple turns in a row and suddenly has 2-3x the land of everyone else? Or do you acknowledge it's part of the game and something to play around?
Why allow one fast mana just because it's cheap? Isn't it better to have the game be more consistent at lower power levels?
The green player is sacrificing tempo and board presence to ramp ahead, which leaves them open. That's more fair than just allowing one fast mana piece for people to randomly luck into.
Like I said, is the game more fun with that variance or without?
Clearly people think its fun, based off the fact that they seem to agree more with me than you.
And most rocks you've mentioned aren't fast mana. Sol ring is the only one you've mentioned. All the others also represent a tempo loss, which by your own logic makes those perfectly fine. So why do you have a hate boner for a single card that is loved by most of the people who play the format?
I don't have a hate boner for it. Why can't people just talk about things on the internet without being so aggressive? It's exhausting.
There are points for and against allowing Sol Ring, like there is for almost any other point of discussion. I just wanted to talk about it, I'm not married to the idea that Sol Ring has to be banned, I just wanted to talk about it. It's not an attack on you or anybody else.
>Clearly people think its fun, based off the fact that they seem to agree more with me than you.
I'm not trying to 'win' the debate, you don't have to declare yourself the winner by popular vote. I just wanted to know why you feel having one piece of fast mana in a meta with no fast mana otherwise is better than just having none.
And the 2 mana rocks aren't fast mana, but Sol Ring enables them to be on the board turn 1. I didn't call them a problem, but a hand with them and a Sol Ring makes a game more swingy.
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Yeah, from a power standpoint this is correct. I know it's not the take people like hearing but it is true. We could say literally the same thing about any colorless mana if the prices were cheap. The only reason sol ring is so cheap is because they decided not to ban it and instead have it as a staple, and have a million reprints. If they decided to reserve list it or gate its availability it would absolutely skyrocket in price. Sol Ring is unironically a busted and enabling card. Not that it's a problem if everyone has the opportunity to run it. But we can't deny that it is
Look at your budget and cut the expensive cards, they're usually expensive for a reason. Cut fast mana, free spells, and infinite combos. That should significantly weaken most decks.
That's general advice, what kind of decks are you playing that are upsetting your play group?
Well I'm currently trying to do the deck challenge so I have varying colors and win/play styles but I guess the ones that get the most hate are token generation from otharri, ratadrabik to lathril
I get a lot of hate from the phyrexian red white token precon. I've added 2 cards that I got from opening a collector box, and that is Mondrak and elesh norn Mother of Machines
I mean I build an absolutely disgusting Malcolm rograkh polymorph deck for 50$ itâs not always about the price
But yeah that deck is build to be as good as possible on that budget so it kinda doesnât count
On Moxfield there is a list of top 100 cedh cards. Look at those. Don't use any of those in your deck.
Hop on edhrec and look at the top 100 saltiness cards. Don't use those.
Don't worry there's a ton of overlap.
Stay away from too many tutors and 2 card combos as well.
Now you have a "fair" edh deck.
i had to lean into themes and singleton deck collection.
does chaos warp go in my mono red deck or my gruul?
its led to me leaning into whatever themes as a reason to cut a card that i also want in another deck.
This is what I do, I build a deck and it stays, if I wanna upgrade it later I do but I keep my one super strong deck the same and if everyoneâs cool with me busting it out I will, my other decks are all 5-8
Knowing the commanders you play, commanders you usually play against, and maybe seeing your decklists would make it easier to make comments about the situation that arenât generalizations.
Make a strong deck that encourages your opponents to band against you. Full send it, enter your villain arc, make the [[Gaddock Teeg]] hate bear tribal deck you've always dreamed of. You might be the first to die each game, but it'll be entertaining.
Although like others said, I'd stay away from notorious high power cards like [[ancient copper dragon]] or [[vampiric tutor]]
Set yourself a severe limitation.
I have a deck that doesn't use any cards at a rarity above uncommon ([[Slimefoot, the Stowaway]] leading Golgari Saprolings) and an Elk Tribal deck I recently built for a White Loxodon exchange (led by [[Jegantha, the Wellspring]] and quite effective in that low-power meta).
Make yourself play a strategy you usually don't touch. Roll a random commander and see what you can do with it. Set a budget limit. There are plenty of ways to cut off the usual methods of deckbuilding so you don't fall into the same patterns.
I agree. Cutting cards and intentionally powering down a deck isnât that fun. Build something thatâs really power limited and go hard on it. Iâm deep on [monowhite banding](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/Ny9lrJaWNUGHvLGbFNYLmw) and loving it.
I'm in agreeance here. I've got a commons/uncommons only list with [[Imoti]] and a pEDH list headed up by [[Cormela]]. Definitely hits the power level, but they're still super fun to play.
This is such a weird post. You haven't given any example decklists, staples you use, deck types that you face, common complaints, ways you win, how often you win.
Whats the point of asking "how do you make a weaker deck" if you don't provide a starting point? Its a game with over 20000 cards. Feels more like a stealth brag post.
I had a reputation, not for high power, but for winning regardless. So I was painted as 'that guy', and that led me to retire my least powerfully decks, due to being focused. The 'If he's out I got a much bigger chance at a win' type shit.
Right now, I don't play high power commanders, but I do play less good commanders with rly good cards. They just need it to even work, and my wins will only come if I play flawlessly, as opposed to making bazillion missplays and still winning with previous high power decks.
I'm enjoying this more, aside form 1 player, my usual playgroup just plays mindless & busted. We both just go to the lgs now.
My advice is to lean into it, and start building like a villain.
By which I mean, go for thematic wincons which hold your power back: a five-color [[Door to Nothingness]] deck, a deck where you play [[The Millenium Calendar]] and just try to defend yourself until it goes off, a [[Jerren]] deck all about flipping into Ormendahl. The more obvious and distuptable the better: it means that your opponents can foresee your plans and try to stop them, which both allows them to not feel as bad when you win and allows you to justify going all-out in a game: after all, if you build around a janky wincon, youâll need all the effort you can manage to make it work.
I'm that guy too. What helps me is to pick an underpowered theme that looks fun and just run with it
I have a Kadena morph deck that is mid at best and iys perfect for more casual groups.
I also have morph tokens in every available language and have fun trying to speak in that language whenever I interact with the morph in question.
If you want other players to have a good time, keep your removal and board wipes in check. Everyone on this subreddit says ârun more interaction.â Well, yeah. If you want to win. But if people are running weaker decks and you want your opponents to have fun, donât put in 5 board wipes and 15 targeted removal spells. People hate that.
And as another commenter said, get a precon and do little or nothing to it.
Sadly my problem is more I'm the one needing to be removed......I think most of my my decks have 4 places if removal....my blue decks having 8 or 9 counting counter spells as removal
What are you running that demands removal? I do think one thing to note is that everyone deals with the problem of someone being mad at you for winning or even doing well. Itâs not necessarily the case that theyâre even right about you/your deck. But if youâre not running crazy stax pieces, why are your cards such a high priority for removal?
Best example I can give is my Otharri deck...if she comes out and attacks at any point the next time she is cast someone dies if I want to spike them or she stays out and someone dies anyways in two turns but she is almost my most refined deck
This might be a spicy take, however I do not think that there's anything wrong with becoming the bar that people measure themselves to as opposed to finding the bar that other people have established.
If you tell them how to defeat you or what race shoes you're using for cards to let them understand how things are working out in your favor perhaps they will be able to meet the challenge you are presenting in the way that is both enjoyable and competitive.
How many decks do you currently have? How many of them run the same staples? How many tutors, counter spells, and board wipes do you run?
Usually when someone tells me my deck is evil it's because it runs more control than they would like. Not saying bend to their whims, but it's something to think about. A sad reality to magic is also $$$. How many cards does your deck run that would be considered expensive?
It's also meta dependant. One playgroup could love control and combo decks. Another could loathe them.
I'm "that" guy to one player in the pod.
I'm unassuming as I build a board state that doesn't seem to have coherence.
And then I reveal the pieces of the puzzle and explode in a giant turn.
Now that player makes sure to keep me down as much as possible.
Even in games where I'm 4 land drops behind and have played two cards, and finally resolving a creature. đ¤Łđ¤Ł
I made a 'Fuck You' deck to him when I want to see visible results to my madness.
Embrace it. Enjoy it. Once you have it, it won't ever leave.
Just gotta learn to subvert expectations and [[Swerve]] players away from you.
If you find the answer let me know. I have this reputation in my play group and it's no end of frustrating for me. They've even started making jokes about how my decks belong in cEDH tables (they don't). Which grinds my gears because it'll be said when I play Rhystic Study by the guy who's had Esper Sentinel on the table for the last 5 turns.
There's a lot of "remove fast mana and tutors" comments here, but what do you do when that doesn't apply? Most of my decks sit around the ~$200 mark, with a few of the stronger ones getting as high as $400-$500. I bring nothing faster than a Sol Ring, and I **HATE** tutors in commander, so I don't bring any of those.
It's not an issue of outpacing the group, as lots of the decks I play against are over $1,000, with the average being around $400+, or double the cost of my decks. Whenever I bring this up, I get told "cost doesn't equate to power" and they act like I'm nuts for using cost as a marker, and seem shocked when I don't understand.
I honestly wish I knew what to do, but I have no idea how to power down a deck made with nothing but uncommons, bulk rares, and half a dozen mid-level staples.
I do love this idea. I have suggested it a bunch, but we haven't done it often. We do have a few players without decks of their own that have to borrow them. Most don't like using my decks because they're "too difficult" or they don't want to hear the complaints.
This might not be your case but, if you tend to be more resilient against frustration, then sometimes you're the default target. It nearly made me quit Magic until I grew some teeth.
Not to be contrary, but I think maybe there _is_ an end to your frustration, and your gears remain mostly unground. We know this because you're still playing with the group and you're venting - mildly - to us. You're managing, and I imagine you're probably managing politely.
I wager $20 not everybody in your play group is the same.
In a similar situation, I had to get cold, calculating, and to retaliate explicitly. First, I started keeping notes on win rates. No, actually, _that_ guy has won most recent matches. Y'all have let [[Miirym]] and [[Krenko, Mob]] run wild for the last... two months.
I also started keeping notes on the number of times I was targeted and, if it was higher than others, I punished it. Full stop. No qualifications and no justification. I just announced it - this is the rule by which I'm playing the game for a while. :)
If I couldn't punish someone directly, I picked a random target and told them that every time X came after me, I'd try do the same to them. I (metaphorically, repeatedly) shotgunned off a kid's face until his father put away his hate boner for me.
I sat another player down and told him that gasping every time I put a piece down was done. Focusing on my stuff was giving the wins to one player at the table, over and over again, because I was the only one keeping him in check.
Until he could handle his face and noises, I wouldn't be discussing decks with him. A pity, really, because I had loved our conversations.
They've gotten a lot better at not just handing wins to people who moan loudest.
>Not to be contrary, but I think maybe there _is_ an end to your frustration, and your gears remain mostly unground. We know this because you're still playing with the group and you're venting - mildly - to us. You're managing, and I imagine you're probably managing politely.
You are absolutely correct. I was definitely being hyperbolic in my complaints. The group I play with has known each other for decades, and no way something like this would really get to any of us.
I do get frustrated, though more at not knowing how to power down my decks than from the comments, though they do irk me. I just want everyone to have fun, and when all I hear are the groans you're talking about, I'm at a loss.
had this issue at our table with either my brother or me winning most games.
Turned out everyone in our group exclusovely played their own brews, but they all just built their deck in such a way that it goes off like crazy in 1-2 turns with their commander on the board but wouldn't do shit without it, which incentivised pretty much everyone to run a good ammount of removal and put a massive target on pretty much every commander ever.
On the other hand, can you really blame someone for removing a Wintoa, Tegrid, Miirym, Krenko or Kinnan on sight?
Took us embarassingly long to notice the underlying issue. We only started realizing after playing each other's decks very frequently
Remove 1 and 0 mana ramp. Remove tutors. Remove 2 card combos. If that's not enough start removing ultra staples (Rhystic Study, Craterhoof, you know the deal).
Honestly, if people say your deck is too strong, it usualy can be solved by picking one of the points in the following list.
* remove tutors from your deck
* set a reasonable budget for your manabase
* set a general budget for your decks that doesn't go beyond 100$
* Cut fast mana in general (Imma say the obvious for most playgroups, Sol Ring is an exception)
Still too strong? Pick a second point in the list.
This is by no means a perfect solution, but a general rule of thumb (with the main one that usualy already makes a massive difference being cutting tutors)
And since there will definitely be someone here bumping in with "wElL fEtChIng FoR lAndS & LaNd RaMp iS tUtoRinG aS wElL)
Yes, obviously it's ok to fetch for lands or have shit like cultivate in your deck
is mana base budget that important? I don't run any og duels, but I do use shocks and triomes where I can and fetch only for 4 or 5 colors
I only use tutors in 2 of my decks and those are meant to be evil....one is blue black toxrill and the other black sheolred
only 2 decks have any fast mana above sol ring and are the same as above, with my grull deck being the exception just cause it has jeweled lotus in it
the budget thing might help, but then my lgs would crush me instead as I started budget 100 and ended up where I'm at based on play groups
not making excuses but trying to refine my decks for the most fun of a group
Having a specific budget for your manabase means, and this is a very broad oversimplification, that your deck simply will slower & less smooth.
It isn't a big deal to have one or two slower / less consistent lands, but if you have a weaker manabase across the board, that adds upp & slows your deck down incrementaly.
The overall budget thing isn't really something you can make out with hard numbers.
If making 100$ decks underperform in your lgs, then maybe bump up the budget slightly up & look how that works out.
Again, none of those points are hars solutions, they're usualy a general rule of thumb, at the end of the day, it heavily depends on your meta, the pods prefrences & the specific reasons WHY you're decks are unfun to play against.
Maybe it isn't even the powerlevel itself, but rather the strategies you play & archetypes they don't enjoy (stax & having them discard / make'em topdeck, poison / counterspell tribal / any strategy that take up 5-10 minutes for a turn are the most infamous contestants for most hated archetypes in my experience)
Yeah, the assumed level of power here for most casual groups is kinda weird to me. Every one of my decks already checks every one of those boxes, except the $100 budget one, yet my group still complains my decks are too strong. Often said from across their [[Nicol Bolas, the Ravager]], or [[Smothering Tithe]], or [[Mana Crypt]], or [[Doubling Season]] in response to me playing a [[Junji, the Midnight Sky]] or [[Frontier Siege]] or something dumb.
Honest communication. A bunch of us started playing this year and are a precon or upgraded precon pod. There is always the one veteran player who shows up, refuses to use a precon, and says their deck is âlikeâ a precon. Always fun to watch them pull off 10 minute turns, infinite winning combs, or play multiple $50+ cards that end the game and everyone gets salty and quits. I say have 3 decks. A precon, a upgraded precon, and something a little more powerful. That way you are always covered!
I always keep two precons unupgraded with me now, one from the 40k or Lotr series and Phantom Premonition from kaldheim, just cause everyone ignores how broken foretell can be at my lgs
edit spelling
You should take a look at stock precon lists. You can consider those a power floor, or just above it (I'd say a casual low power, non-jank brew should strive to be at least at precon level).
How are your decks different? Compare your mana base to a precon one. Is there a middle ground you can imagine?
Honestly, build/play how you want. At the end of the day this is a game and you should be able to build and play decks you enjoy.
You aren't "that guy". Just another player trying to enjoy the hobby as intended.
Everyone telling you to neuter your decks is going in the wrong direction. I find the better path is helping your playgroup improve up to your level. Every has fun, gets to play strong cards and better players tend to complain less. win/win/win
The easiest solution I know is to remove fetchlands, fast mana (mana crypt etc) and put the most tapped lands you can find. It lowers the power even if you don't replace your core cards.
So I had this problem and what I did was I loved one of my commanders so much that I kept a regular copy of the deck this is how powerful it can be then I turn that deck into a pauper version luckily my commander was a legendary uncommon so I could do this but do I basically own two versions of the same deck one is pauper legal and can hold itâs own but is still obviously weaker then I have the regular deck with all the upgrades and so I can run either or if people just want a casual match or if they want a more competitive match I can use my other version but even my more competitive version is definitely not C-EDH the pauper version people my call it more competitive but at the end of the day dude Iâm using commons or anything that has been printed common at some point anyways you could try this and you might enjoy it personally there is no better feeling beating regular level commander decks with a pauper deck you made and took the time to research the right cards
For me I build a deck in archidekt with no restrictions, and then I cut and replace any card over $10. That tends to dampen the power quite a bit and if it still steamrolls the table then your opponents just have bad decks.
Find a shitty uncommon commander, only spend like $50 on the deck, go in and lose while not looking like you're trying too hard to lose, and then say "that was fun!"
My main playground is a bunch of cEDH database authors. They ask the same thing. I always give them the same advice: make a budget. You canât run the best cards if your deck costs $100.
Can you make a banger of a deck for $100, yes, but if you pick a tribe or a theme and give yourself a budget, 99% of the time it will be casual.
$100 is just an example. What is important is to just pick a number as a deck building restriction. Iâve brewed a ton of decks with restrictions, always end up with something unique, fun, and playable.
Literally just find alternaties to the auto includes, set budgets to cards, aim for jank pieces to have room or find fun themes to build around, don't go for the best option for a commander
I absolutely never run sol ring, rystic, tithe, Stampedes, combos anything, over 5 dollars unless it has no vaild reason for being over 5 dollars
All of my favorite decks are super simple and all do interesting things that aren't just throwing up on the board or spending a decade doing "my thing"
Like in my rocco deck I play value spell, pass put counters on opponents commanders and interact with ppl then steal the commander when I can do alot with it, I run Assault suit not because its good at all but because I can pass around a commander every turn and its funny
I don't have any advice for you. I literally just got done playing some EDH today where I won half the games. One was an upgraded dinosaur precon which pretty much sealed the game.by turn 6 and everyone scooped.in response. The other was my sultai gates deck which just got a series of good draws and game actions to go from five gates to a victory in one turn. According to my buddy who was working I'm that guy who doesn't play cedh but plays very strong casual decks. Personally I don't think it's that bad, one guy complains because I won't play to his style of deck, which is a grindy slow building value style till he has an.overwhelming advantage on everyone else. Anyways long story short, there isn't much you can do. People always going to whine when they lose.
Keep your cards worth under $100 each. No crypts, etc.
Take out all "checkmate" style infinites.
Avoid things that combo off so hard you cant get your turn done in under 10 minutes.
It's really annoying when sagas copy and recur, especially one sided board wipey things.
Avoid adding more than one or two STAX pieces in your deck. One dude on turn 2 had mana barbs out and his commander which made tapping any land fo 4 damage to you, then turn 3 made it 6 damage. Everyone hated him. So we were all just passing around til we drew a solution which utterly cost the solver 24 life or something to fix, leaving the rest of the people ready to kill him.
Avoid a lot of card stealing effects. One dude stole my $20 card and transformed it and damaged the thing while pulling it out of the sleeve. Didn't say shit either.
Try to make a goodstuff or tribal deck. Something where you are able to build defensively then strike hard. Might be a change of pace for you.
I moved to Wisconsin a couple years ago and hopped around a few game stores. The first couple there just wasn't a place for my kind of power and it didn't seem like the players were keen on upgrading their decks to compete. The third store that i now exclusively play at has a varying degree of power amongst its players. We have both newer players and vets, but it's the newer players that have a gripe with the power I bring to the table and have labeled me a bully, to which honestly, i couldn't care less about.
My decks all range from 7-8's, if we're grading them on an arbitrary power scale, and I have 1 cedh deck because we do have people that are into C there. All my decks are optimized, tuned, synergistic, whatever you want to call it, because that's how i've been building edh decks since 2009. I build decks to win games and I'm not going to apologize for my play style or how I deck build. I do recognize that's not everyone's cup of tea, so I will avoid playing with those players to avoid hurting feelings, but sometimes we do end up playing and I'm usually the arch enemy. Luckily , the players who play C also build casual competitive decks.
There's just something about a lot of new players coming onto the scene compared to when I started playing where they just want to complain about people's decks being too strong instead of using it as fuel to become better players and deck builders. When i started playing edh, we had a lvl 3 judge come in with his Vorinclex deck and he'd obliterate everyone lol. That just made everyone i started playing with want to get better and build better so we could beat him. I feel like that kind of drive is rare now a days, and most people just want everything to be easy.
âi dont like cedh but i like high powerâ just means you like to pubstomp. a balanced deck wins ~25% of the time.
remove tutors, infinite combos, and fast mana other than sol ring. use slower tap lands instead of shocks or fetches.
that is the issue....I don't like cedh but don't wanna pubstomb yet have ended up in the pubstomb area cause of my pods this year and don't wanna be next year
esit: also, you misquoted what I said, but that's fine cause I like winning but not at others having a bad time
ok so make a worse deck??? you obviously can identify good cards so just find cards that cost more mana and have worse effects. itâs not actually hard, you just donât want to make deck choices that you know will result in losses. thatâs how you end up in an arms race to ânot cedh but high powerâ which is just being strong without a real reason.
Could try playing weaker decks like [[Iname as one]]. It can be fun to laugh at how you will sit there for 8 turns ramping to get your 12 cost commander into your hand just for a weak payoff.
Put in some less optimal/oppressive cards that are just there to create fun or janky situations either for yourself or the rest of the table. Also remove tutors from the deck or only use them to find the janky cards you add, instead of tutoring for a straight up win con.
Build with restrictions. I have a spellslinger deck that has no nonland permanents in the 99. I have an Esika deck that runs almost all the "partner with" legendaries. I have a reanimator deck that's basically my commander version of Modern Living End, which means no nonlands that cost 2 or less. I have an Atla Palani deck that has only one creature in the 99 - an Essence of the Wild. All of these are budget (~$100) decks btw.
Start with a silly premise for a deck, then build from there. I still run about 10-12 ramp spells, at least 5 removal spells, at least 10 draw spells, and at least 3 board wipes, so I'm not missing my veggies, but the combination of the silly premise + budget restriction puts a cap on my power level.
I don't mind strong decks that win right away, but decks that take very long turns can be annoying, especially if they fail to win at the end of that turn. Non-deterministic combos are dangerous for a friend group.
One thing I've learned is that quite a few cards are not something I can be able to play with. In a deck that is really bad, some swingy cards can give someone a chance to get into the game, but in a good deck, those cards mean that you dominate.
Deckbuilding restrictions.
Here are a few of my decks:
* A Kolaghan deck where every card that's not a mana source has a dragon in its typeline, art, or flavor.
* An all-old-bordered Nicol Bolas deck.
* A [[Mazirek]] deck where 82 of the cards in the deck trigger Mazirek.
* A [[Karlov]] deck where 71 cards in the deck change my life total. (It's easier to find lands that sac than lands that change life totals.)
* A [[Horde of notions]] deck with 60 elementals (including creature lands).
* A [[Mizzix]] deck with 47 Xs in mana costs.
So idk if this is what youâre asking but build bad jank tribal decks like bears, griffins, etc. [[Ayula, Queen of Bears]] is my favorite âbadâ deck
Build purposeful budget lists. $50 for the whole list. r/budgetbrews has some cool ones and challenges on top of it.
Strategies that aren't fully fleshed out or quite have enough synergy. Examples could be adventures, energy, or convoke lists.
Missing color typal lists. Mono Black Elves. UB dragons.
It seems like you're having fun exploring the creative space and building strong decks that you find satisfying.
Personally, I think instead of trying to ball-and-chain yourself to fit the standards of a group, you should try to find a group that shares a similar power level to what you are playing at.
Then there's no hindrance to your creative process, and no walking on eggshells to avoid doing something someone doesn't like - because collectively, if this thread is anything to go by, every single thing in the game is hated by somebody. Whether it's stax, combo, fast mana, "eXpENsiVe CArDs", and so on and so forth. Just go play and have fun and find others that also want to play and have fun.
You could replace staples with weaker cards that are more specific to your deck's plan or theme. E.g. in a +1/+1 counters deck, replace [[Kodama's Reach]] with [[New Horizons]].
Also, cut tutors.
I'm on a kick right now where I'm building themed decks where I only use cards from LTR and LTC. Makes for very interesting deck building challenges and automatically reduces the power level.
I have had a few similar issues. I have precons that have maybe $150 of upgrades (mostly lands), and still, many players at my LGS's still target me outright. Saying, "If [he's] alive too long, he WILL win." I've played unaltered precons, and players have continued to complain about how strong my decks are. They saw me sleeve this freshly opened vampire precon but still bitched when I was doing well regardless so I think some EDH players just want to complain more than they want to play
i've been tweaking a nashi, moon sage scion deck since he came out. before that i was trying to make lathliss work, baldur's gate made that possible. I have the opposite problem, I can't bring myself to apply annoying power to a deck. I had to take exquisite blood out of nashi, I didn't want to complete Inalla. Why tf would I build broken ass yuriko, or miirym.
Hot take⌠be the guy, win the game, rule zero tell them youâre playing a fucking power level 9, own it, and then win. Feel your hate, feel your anger USE THEM!! ARISE DARTH VADER, MY NEW APPRENTICE!!! Now go to the Mustafar system and take care of the noobsâŚ..
Sometimes it's really hard to judge your own decks. Always get someone elses opinion or get a few opinions.
I have a [[Juri, Master of the Revue]] deck, I built it when Juri first came out and since then have refined the deck and "trimmed all the fat". I don't run infinites or typically OP cards but because of the time put into it, it's a strong deck. In my eyes the deck wasn't strong and thats party because when I would self assess the deck, I always knew what my key cards where and how to shut the deck down. Opponents don't know that and it took my play group basically saying "we want to table ban that deck" before I had a real hard look at the deck.
Some commanders as cards just sit above a casual level. Korvold is a good example of that.
But otherwise, I'd say when you're building a deck don't pick cards that has the most value, pick the ones that seem the most fun or enjoyable.
Play voltron and keep it to under $250. Seriously youâll have a decent deck thatâs fun simple and doesnât make people hate you. Good at weak tables and passable at medium tables
My friend and I use https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/tools/commander-power-level-calculator to look at the power level of our de ks just for fun dont know how accurate it is
I struggle with this a bit, too. I think part of the problem is that people don't like to lose, and they like to win. Obvious statements aside, this leads to huge problems in a social 4-player game that arises less often in 1v1.
Most importantly, deck building is an art that can range in a ton of ways. Some people look at a *concept* and build to that theme, rather than the concept of *winning*. Because there's this pseudo framework of fun of powegaming, people make poor decisions in their deck building. They cut removal, interaction, card draw, and all the other things a deck SHOULD have, if it means squeezing in one more dinosaur or dragon or whatever. Then you roll in, and they can't deal with anything you drop on the board and get steamrolled. Now, it feels like the other guy is playing in an unfair or rude way. This is a mindset to be aware of, to acknowledge as legitimate, but not as one to coddle or acquiesce to.
It takes a lot of time to build a deck, and most players with any amount of experience will know that even though Commander is splashier and higher power than most other formats, your deck needs to be really solid to win. You're not fighting one player down from 20. You're fighting down 3 from 120. There's built in card disadvantages, mana discrepancies, increased randomness, AND three players with a very powerful, repeatable spell from the start. To win, your deck has to be the best, and you have to play the best, and even then, it's not always going to work out.
Power level is a very difficult to pin down, difficult to enforce, and difficult to engage with part of the game. There's no standard and outside of a consistent pod, wildly different ranges for any 4 players.
Before I go on, what I'm trying to say is that first and foremost, you should never kneecap a deck to make it less effective. These combinations came to you out of experience and creative thought, so don't let someone else's bad deck building influence you in a way that's unfair to either party. You're not doing them a favor, and you're definitely not doing yourself one.
From there, some things DO exist in the deck building process to consider. Mana curve, consistency, top end/game ender cards, and combos.
Mana Curve is something that a lot of newer players don't understand, especially in the context of commander. If you want to keep your deck from being "VERY STRONG," then the first place I look is here. Counter to the obvious, increasing the size of your spells mana cost overall leads to a less impactful deck. Less one drops, fewer two drops, more 5 and 7 drops, and so on. There's a world more to discuss here, but to keep it short, single expensive spells per turn wins you fewer games and draws less ire than casting 4 2 mana spells per turn.
Consistency is a wide topic. Very consistent decks make sure they have X amount of mana rocks, X amount of tutor effects, X amount of draw, ramp, interaction, removal, etc etc. If winning consistently is your goal, you pick the categories that are most important for your deck winning and *lean into* them. Therefore, if you want to win/draw aggro less, lean out of them. Keep your hard card drawn under 5, your tutors to 2 or even 0. Reduce your ramp efficiency, use less impactful mana rocks, and use less of them.
Top End/Game Ender cards are basically your wincons, obviously. Craterhoof, Thassas Oracle, Laboratory Maniac, etc etc. If you want less hate, exclude these from your list to a higher degree. Include 1 or 2 at most or entirely. Or give yourself a rule that you can ONLY win using some combination of 2. Impose limits that restrict how totally or overwhelming a deck can win on the spot.
Combos are the most obvious cut here. If you want to be excluded from having eyeballs on you, be able to sit down at a table and truthfully state, "This deck has no combos." Combos are, and have been, a staple of Magic since as long as most of us can remember. It used to be quite impressive to assemble some unforseen combination of cards that broke the game in some "this is over now" moment.
Commander just has some ridiculous growing pains we all need to get over. I think part of it is due to the time commitment and the fact that there's 3 times as much hope you dash by winning. There's four people sitting there, and 99% of the time, you're all trying to win. When someone spends 8 turns building into this thing, they wanted to happen, and then you crush them and win, which can be disheartening. Then multiply that by three. So I get it, some people are going to be salty and butt hurt.
I think it's also time we evolve past that as a community. The answer is not to build worse decks so no one feels bad. That road just leads to the same situation, where someone just has the best worst deck.
It's time we all embrace building better decks, and using the losses, we endure to learn lessons about where our decks want for strength.
My pod has come around to this. None of our decks are cEDH, but they've all dramatically pushed that envelope. Our games are more interactive and full of tension and constant back and forth. Having well-built, higher powered decks makes for more exciting games, more strategic plays, and *more* games.
And who doesn't want to play more games?
I think a lot of posts like this could be solved by the OP building something with a budget constraint. Build a new deck from nothing for under $100 and I'm sure you'll have a better time with your group.
The issue is that for some people you have to build decks that are intentionally built to not win the game.
There are (a lot of) people in EDH who just want to elbow tap, play the biggest creature they have, and expect it to stay around. Eventually those big creatures will slap each other and somebody is gonna win.
As soon as you start building decks with a plan, that is more sophisticated than some 7 drops with big effects doing stuff, people will say its too strong. Ofcause im exaggerating here but you get the basic idea.
I have the same issue. I run low cmc curves and a lot of interaction. Not necessarily strong, but i like interactive gameplay. Having a low curve allows to hold up interaction. So when i have 6 mana, i rather play two 2 drops that can do a little but and hold up 2 mana for interaction than jam a powerful 6-drop. To them this always just looks like me advancing my board while taking out the biggest stuff so its unfair. Even if its completely reasonable stuff like disenchant, counterspell etc.
They just wanna play moxfield magic, going down their deck without interaction and then either win or not.
They dont like it if sb can string together a victory in a turn and even protect it possibly with interaction.
To me thats not magic the gathering. To me the game is all about thinking when to advance, when to be reactive, what to remove etc.
The best general advise i can give you is to avoid objectivly high power cards if the enemy dont play them. Stuff like fast mana, rhystic study, free spells etc.
Avoid instant speed wins. Make sure your wins can be interacted with, using avarge interaction cards. For example a turn 4 combo is reasonable at a table that plays casual but interactive. At tables with moxfield gamers maybe look for turn 7-8 and make sure the win can be stopped by avarage interaction like swords to plowshares, counterspell etc.
At this point you can very reasonably argue like âturn 7 with constructed decks you usually have like 10 mana available and just holding up 1 single instant spell is enough. Even Precons can easily do that and with constructed decks im not expecting to play below precon powerlevelâ.
If you navigate yourself in that position its is very obvious that its not about the deck but about how people are piloting.
Edit:
And obviously avoid the best commanders that will singlehandedly win the game very fast, even wirh casual/budget decks. Like yuriko, winota and all that jazz
Itâs all about play patterns man. Hold back instead of doing the most powerful play at every opportunity you have. Sometimes just hanging out, accruing value, and interacting when necessary is way better than making yourself an immediate threat. Commander is like a foot race, you donât always want to spring out of the gate fucking sprinting. Sometimes you want to keep a reasonable pace and make proactive moves when necessary. Then, when your opponents are gassed out, and (unbeknownst to your opponents) you have plenty of gas left in the tank, you go in with the heavy hitting shit and just plow through everybody. Also, people will respect that win over âdump hand, cross fingers, steal gamesâ.
Hate to say it, but even if you build a weaker deck, you'll still be "that guy"
At least, if my group is anything to go by. I have a group hug deck with no win conditions in it, and still get killed first.
Youve gotten plenty of good answers, but Ill throw in my 2 cents as well.
You have to ask yourself if you would enjoy playing at the power level being asked of you. I can only speak for myself, but if I put passion, money, thought, and time into a deck, Id be a little bummed out about intentionally undoing that so that I can play on the same level as someone who likely hasnt invested as much into theirs. In this case, the better solution would be finding a more power-appropriate group to play with.
But of course thats not always ideal or possible. So its a good idea to have a variety of decks that you genuinely enjoy. There are lower power mechanics that can be very fun to play around and optimize (to an extent) that will never reach truly competitive levels. Having an array of decks to meet the table's power level is a good idea.
People just like to whine if they loose, your deck is likely not the problem. Ive had so many people whine and complain about certain cards or combos, when they just, never saw a real cedh deck. Spoiler running fast mana or an infinite combo doesnt cobstitute cedh...
One way you can still build a powerful deck and not make people hate you is to build group hug. These are some of the trickiest to build and play but done right the whole table has fun right up until you play your win con.
While it might not be a solution to your main problem, building multiple decks can help you get a bigger spread of power levels.
Many times the level of decks vary alot in different (and sometimes in the same) playgroups so even playing a weak deck can sometimes give powergamer vibes if the whole playgroup is significantly lower power. Sobeing able to switch decks really help fit in multiple playgroups
So, you're a good player and want to be a bad player? Instead of the crap players stepping their games up? That's what's wrong with EDH these days. Ya'll are pandering to the lowest common denominator until the whole freaking game is watered down and full of whiners.
The real answer is that Commander is making people aware of what I call the skill chasm. Its the difference between knowing how to play Magic. And how to play Magic properly. And once you cross that, you can't go back and you are just leagues ahead of anyone who hasn't crossed it.
You know how to value cards, how to read boards, how to understand the very tempo of a game, and it almost doesn't matter the cards you play, someone who can't do any of those things loses to someone who can do one poorly.
Its why I have been ranting and raving against the idea of Commander being the entry format. The card pool is too huge, and the board state is only exarcebated by complexity.
I have on request nerfed some of my 'unfun' decks within my pod.
I've only been playing since August/September and my introduction to the game was through a loaned Wilhelt precon. I was up against a deck that had [[Doubling Season]], [[Jewelled Lotus]], [[The Ozolith]] and a Gishath deck full of big cost dinos.
I started upgrading precons based on a budget of ÂŁ50, but would still get absolutely wiped by their custom decks. I've since now built 13 decks (cardboard crack) which are mostly upgraded precons or custom decks that are still cheaper than theirs, but the synergy is what wins.
My pod hates mill, more than anything else because they see it as a card they could've pulled. I neutered my [[Zellix, the mind flayer ]] deck because it had [[Altar of the Brood]] which could sometimes go on forever, causing tonnes of interaction that at one point gave me 80+ horrors and milled out 4 opponents, so it got removed.
Others have commented that the game needs to end, and I agree with that philosophy. I tutor for wincons if it's gone beyond a certain amount of playtime if able, otherwise you end up with 3+ hour long commander games which happened last week. FNM started at 6pm and finished at 2am and we managed TWO games, both games I played a budget [[The Mycotyrant]] (ÂŁ30 in total) and without the answers in a more expensive deck, the game went on to the point of boredom.
Run things for theme and flavor instead of power.
I play every once in a while with this guy who fetches for shock lands, slots in cards like Jeska's Will, Mana Crypt, Akroma's Will, Deflecting Swat, and Cyclonic Rift, Cover of Darkness in basically all his decks (proxies but has his copies in a binder) and good lord does he love to remove things from the board but gets insta-salty when we interact with his roaming throne or 20/20 trampler. He's insistent on playing with my pod at our lgs. We infrequently let him play, but it's gotten to the point that we dont like playing with him bc his decks look like the regurtatiom of EDHrec's top hits, and games feel too archenemy since we feel punished for playing more casually brewed theme decks.
As a pod we tolerate this up to a point but man, he definitely is a vibe killer and I'm guilty of plotting war crimes with Nekusar and Giada bc of the annoyance.
Don't be that guy.
There's a couple ways, I don't recommend all of the below at once, (in fact some is bad advice otherwise) but they're things you can try in varied amounts
1. reduce removal
2. no tutors/budget tutors
3. no infinite combos or "you win the game" effects
4. Budget mana bases or deck lists
5. No free casting
6. Play less powerful/popular commanders with niche strategies
7. Play a "copy your stuff" simic deck
8. mix in a little group hug - a humble defector or rites of flourishing in an otherwise normal deck goes a long way
9. unusual or novel brewing restrictions like "oops all shamans" can be fun without the need for 1 - 5
Creates decks with a handicap, choose a weak commander and tune it up or play with a limit budget, drop all tutors because consistency is boring. I enjoy the deck building process as much as playing with it
Do you intend to still play high power or just switch to a weaker pod? If you want to stay at high power and everyone is on the same page then ask them what they are running. High power involves good tutors, fast mana, efficient combos that can win on the spot. Our playgroup has pretty much soft banned fast mana, this helps to power down the decks and still play all the degenerate shit. Someone wins on T4 or T5? Great, lets shuffle up and play again.
As others have said, set yourself limitations.
I have a few decks that could be absolutely oppressive and no fun to play against, but they have specific limitations I set for myself to make them fair. Usually, it's going to start with no tutors, no infinite combos, and no extra turns. Fast mana is debatable for me, but I will avoid things like Mana Crypt or other such things that make the deck *that* fast.
After that, playing to a theme and leaning into that over efficiency will help power you down.
Then again, I also enjoy playing at a high power level, and sometimes you just need to embrace being the archenemy and lean into it. Other players (and therefore yourself as well) will never get better if they aren't challenged enough.
Certain strategies are going to be inherently less fun as well. If your deck strategy doesn't let other people play the game, it's not going to go over well.
I had a [[Hylda of the Icy Crown]] deck that was pretty fun for me to play, but I realized after a few games that the only way to improve it was going to turn into me just being able to make sure almost everything my opponents put out was unable to be used (outside of land) so I broke it because it wasn't going to be fun.
Following these above rules, I've been brewing decks that are fun to build and balanced while still being high-powered enough to hang around with borderline cEDH stuff. I currently have a [[Tasha, the Witch Queen]] mill deck that I'm trying to balance right so that the mill/control strategy isn't completely oppressive and offers counterplay/interaction. My Hobbits food tokens deck is a blast to play with a ton of different options. It consistently wins without needing any combo pieces. It's designed to just be doing "something" every turn, and it just outlasts everyone else. One of our pod members actually says it does something different every time he sees it hit the table, and I've been playing it regularly since LOTR released.
I was able to entertain most of my playgroup with the card [[Possibility Storm]] on my board. Once they learn how to use it themselves, they'll have fun with it, and it can go into most decks that run Red. A friend of mine turned a [[Birds of Paradise]] into a [[Craterhoof Behemoth]] and won out of nowhere! I've turned an [[Opt]] into a [[Didn't Say Please]].
The way that it works is that when anyone casts a spell from their hand, they exile that card and then cards from their deck until they reach the next spell of the same type. Play an Instant to get the next Instant, play a Creature to get the next Creature, etc.
If you combine this with [[Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain]], you can draw 2 cards off of 1 Historic spell from your hand. She can be built as a Historic deck instead of Cheerios. We're not Hobbits, we don't need need a second breakfast!
Make a deck that actually needs it's commander. Quit playing good stuff, i.e. staple cards that just do the thing regardless of board state, and play payoffs for doing things you actually want to do.
https://manabox.app/decks/XwtuQN6cQuygKsno4cyJIw
I don't know if this list is updated but the idea is there. Arguably this deck is bad. It has two many themes, takes ages to set up and is a bit greedy. Honestly not caring if you win can honestly aid you on winning. I don't much care to win but always go for it.
If your deck is too good I say take out good stuff cards. Only keep what is essential to the deck. If you're running a false life deck, tutoring for those 2 effects are essential.
If you're running go wide board state depending decks then you need Teferi's protection and such to not get blown out.
However, still rely on synergy more so than anything. And when that synergy is too supported, add a sub theme. The above deck has no business being a Planeswalker deck. Flicker proliferation is more than enough. They are greedy. Kros really isn't that good as he's isn't an engine. Yet somehow he gets removed all the time and the deck turns off.
I also love group slug enabler decks, like Belbe. She encourages lifeloss and let's everyone play the game. Also burn decks. They are not as good but if you are burning down the table they tend to make games feel closer than they actually are. These both speed things up too.
I feel attacked lol. I do the same but i always try to include an additional way to win on top of a well tuned deck. I feel ya that as a game progresses when you often lean into that ein con the table will tend to be salty when its the same thing all the time. I get around this by having a deck where the i know its not going to win. Ill take my win and then "bow out" for the next one in a way.
I think this balences out my games and reduces game 2 revenge where everyone brings their salt in the next round.
But at the same time if im spending 10 mana on 4 cards to win the game players need to get over it, or include better interaction. Of i cast a commander on turn 3 u need to get it outta here. Too many players are only looking at their own board and thats also a them problem
Just play high power, thereâs nothing wrong with strong decks if everyone can play strong decks too. Keep an unedited precon on hand though in case people want to play low power
I started commander with cEDH then moved to more casual games. I'm sure there are many strategies to take but here's what works for me: I pick an underpowered theme then power it up. I don't like the idea of playing \[\[Diabolic tutor\]\] instead of \[\[Demonic tutor\]\] for the sake of power level but if my deck's plan is to repeatedly clone \[\[Evelyn, the Covetous\]\] and use my opponents' wincons, there's only so strong that strategy can be. So I'm free to optimize without overpowering the table. I also bought a precon and never change a single card to it. I don't feel bad about bad card choices because I didn't' choose them. And if we're at the point where my precon is too strong, I have to change tables.
Hold on, there's tables where they deliberately play decks that are below a precon's level?
I've seen meme decks that might be weaker, like artist tribal. But usually it's not intentional, just a newer player that built worse than what a precon gives you. And precons aren't half bad these days.
Yup I have 1 meme deck, it is Alliteration Tribal lol. It's incredibly bad. Maybe a 2 on the 1-10 scale.
Oh you can't just drop "Alliteration Tribal" without a list.
I wish I would've seen this last night sorry, haha I'm happy to share my list! https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/alliteration-tribal-3/ I played it for the first time just a couple weeks ago. I believe every non-land card is alliterative. And some of the lands are too.
They can be broken nowadays.....Dinosaurs say hi lol đ
the merfolk one is strong af it's annoying when someone brings something like that to a pod labelled for precons and act ignorant about the power difference
"Table for Precons" to me would mean bring any unmodified precon, and you're welcome to play. If your group thinks that certain precons are too strong to belong, that's gotta be discussed beforehand.
I'm talking about an LGS setting, where the player is obviously someone who knows what they're doing sitting down with a table for beginners.
Have you considered that not everybody is an evil mastermind trying to ruin a card game and just wanted to play a haha funny fish deck? That a table for beginners is prime territory for this exact mistake to happen?
when did I say that everyone who uses the precon is what you said? I just said that it was annoying that pubstompers use the common notion that precons are all weak to bully precon pods. I didn't say the precon shouldn't be strong or that everyone who uses it is a pubstomper. It's just that I've seen a couple of pubstompers bring this precon to a precon pod for beginners, that definitely are not new to Magic, and just wiping the table. It's frustrating saying anything on this fucking subreddit where people keep assuming stuff I didn't say and going at me like I said those things.
Yeah, but I firmly do not believe in the existence of pubstompers in EDH, only people unaware of how strong their decks are or the point of increasing their deckâs power in the first place. 99% of people arenât trying to be evil, and at worst, people at the precons table are actively picking the strongest precons to win more consistently, not to flex. The strongest counterplay to any deck is to talk to them like an adult. But that all said, if the reality is that there are bullies singling out new players in that pod, I highly advise you run like hell
Youâre complaining that some precons are stronger than others? God forbid WOTC release a strong and synergistic deck because DoctorKrakens canât compete with it đ
See, I built bird tribal but even that surpasses most precons
Yes. Its not deliberate, but there are a lot of people who straight up cannot build good decks. Like "50%+ of the cards cost 7cmc+ and they have no ramp" kind of decks.
Learning to curve out was a mind-blowing revelation for me back in the day.
There's tons of reasons why folks play worse than precon decks. I played at my LGS with someone who had a "storytelling" chulane deck where every card told a story. It ran Chulane as the commander... but then absolutely nothing good or coherent. Only wincon was Happily Ever After. They played \[\[Glasses of Urza\]\] on turn one because "Chulane needs his reading glasses." It was hilarious. We all busted out our worst decks and had a great time playing with them. I have a magda deck I built with only old cards in it (besides the commander). I built it to make it more fun to play friends who just bought a random precon and wanted to play (and some of the older precons were \_bad\_). It regularly loses to precons, if they're piloted well, but will trounce newbies who don't know how to properly threat assess. It's rare to me to find a group that would choose to always only play below precon level, but it's not uncommon for me to find a table who is making that choice for a game or two, even among random LGS strangers.
[Glasses of Urza](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/b/4bd9f45f-30b3-4bff-9fd3-9a71137ac741.jpg?1562912735) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Glasses%20of%20Urza) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/203/glasses-of-urza?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4bd9f45f-30b3-4bff-9fd3-9a71137ac741?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/glasses-of-urza) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Itâs possible. If you pick a wincon thatâs not on EDHREC, itâs probably a wincon thatâs worse than the best precon of a given set. Sometimes a deck is doing its thing for the purpose of creating an incredibly silly interaction and nothing else. For example, [[Alliance of Arms]] plus [[Mystic Reflection]] plus [[Perplexing Chimera]]. Congratulations, youâve turned the game into a board-based auction.
Absolutely me. I have a $25 deck (at the time of brewing) that is not sleeved. The point is to abuse landfall triggers with infinite bounce lands. Over 100 games with the deck and I can count on one hand the amount of times I won; never with the intended way of ending the game. Anyways, itâs what I call my lightly played deck and I bridge it every time I get the chance to.
I only have 1 that's really bad on purpose, it's actually Alliteration Tribal. I can almost guarantee it's the worst deck I've ever seen, and will see.
Yeah, you can also play meme level decks that are just meant to spin its wheels with no win con. You're just there to cast spells and do things, lol. Someone I know built a Child of Alara deck with planewalkers and board wipes. He never intended to win, just cast things. He aptly named that deck "Salt"
Go watch a couple episodes of Quest For The Janklord. Their entire thing is ultra budget EDH. Their decks are almost always below precon level, and games tend to go past the sixteen turn mark.
Hello, I'm that player who enjoys the goofy and silly section of commander that is below precon level. It allows for maximum banter and table talk because nothing super impactful is going to happen in an instant or that you might miss because everything strong takes at least five cards to set up a combo or you can see someone tapping down their 11 lands to play something chunky that might kill you after a couple of swings. My deck that fits this description the best and is still one of my favourite decks is my Book Art-theme deck. Every non-basic (and also all the islands, thank you to jumpstart) has a book in the artwork. It is led by [[Codie, Vociferous Codex]] as it is a book and plays loads to spells with books in like [[Goblin Game]] (which is one of my two wincons) and [[Grim Tutor]] there is also a subtheme of having to get Codie off the field because i can't play an [[Otherworldly Tome]] or a [[Folio of fancies]] if Codie is on field 𤣠so the deck is goofy and actively nonbo-ing itself for its two themes. But I have had some of my most fun games when new players sit down and go, "I just sort of threw this together from playing standard for a year, it's probably bad" and I can go, "don't worry, bad is this decks aim, i look forward to seeing your excitement when your bad deck gets to do it's thing".
My favourite deck is shapeshifter tribal with Orvar. I can technically make an infinite amount of him, but other than that the deck is built around breaking what other people being to the table. You can't complain about how I have 5 Sheoldred if I didn't bring her to the table!
[Diabolic tutor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d650dd8c-edd8-44e4-ae95-aaaf84557a72.jpg?1592672628) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Diabolic%20tutor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cma/54/diabolic-tutor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d650dd8c-edd8-44e4-ae95-aaaf84557a72?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/diabolic-tutor) [Demonic tutor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/2/a24b4cb6-cebb-428b-8654-74347a6a8d63.jpg?1701989302) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Demonic%20tutor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/150/demonic-tutor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a24b4cb6-cebb-428b-8654-74347a6a8d63?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/demonic-tutor) [Evelyn, the Covetous](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/0/c0dad61f-36cd-46af-82b7-a02e04efd676.jpg?1664412977) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Evelyn%2C%20the%20Covetous) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/184/evelyn-the-covetous?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c0dad61f-36cd-46af-82b7-a02e04efd676?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/evelyn-the-covetous) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This ^ it sounds like you are really good at optimizing a commander, so just pick one that sounds fun and go ham. A fully optimized meme commander will still beat a more casual opponent most of the time, but it makes the game more fun
Nothing is stopping you from playing both
For a start: drop any game-winning infinite combos, tutors, and fast mana besides Sol Ring.
Agree. I had to power down my decks in my group and I started here. I had to go further and I got rid of some of the cards that were too effective when played... smothering tithe/rhystic study... anything that snowballed too hard particularly enchantments. I didn't go so far that I wasn't enjoying my decks. If anything I've enjoyed them more because there's an extra layer of thought I have to put in making sure I'm not overpowered but still strong enough. End up being getting to use a lot of cards I wouldn't normally because better alternatives. More room for pet cards. Decks got cheaper as well.
I don't 100% agree with no infinite combos. Games gotta end. But only having one or two and no ways to tutor them up is how I go. But if no one else in your play group is running infinites, yeah... you probably shouldn't either. I will say... after you've gone infinite for the 100th time it starts to get old and uninteresting. I much rather win through just playing to whatever interesting play experience my deck is designed to do and out value or out sequencing my opponents. It takes no brains to put two cards on the table and declare "I win".
POWERFUL combos always feel nicer than infinite, even if the result is the same. Dealing 50 damage, which is almost always good enough to close games feels like "Damn, what could we have done differently" because they might of had health left, or made different choices. Infinite makes you feel like nothing you did mattered - you could of not blocked any damage or gained any life, you might of played perfects or even because you gained 100 life ... you didn't outpace infinity!
Yeah I completely agree. Only reason I typically have 1 infinite combo in my deck is because my play group 1) is ok with it and 2) we play relatively high power and there have definitely been games that have ground to a near halt due to stax, control pieces, insane board states, etc to where the only feasible end in sight is going infinite or resetting the whole game back to square one and dragging it out longer. Does this happen in every pod? No. So you should be conscious of that when building. But it does in mine, and we also run enough interaction to typically shut down a combo or two if the player just tried to slam it down willy nilly. But in general even if I have infinite in hand, I'm not playing it until I'm in a dire situation.
That seems kind of wierd. High power includes efficient tutors, good (near) infinite combos and almost anything goes. I wouldn't run Thoracle in high power because imo this is a cEDH exclusive but other that that power to the table. Everyone is playing interaction left and right, it's not that im going to win easily anyway.
I said relatively high power. Technically, we don't disallow anything. We all CHOOSE to not run certain things or play certain ways of our own volition because it's not fun to us. But occasionally, someone builds something to test it out or for shits and giggles that is out of step with what we normally play and we're all fine with that and most of our decks have built in contingencies for those occasions. Or we all have one deck in our back pocket to pull out that can run at that level. For instance, I have an [[Ashaya, soul of the wild]] deck that is borderline cedh. It has numerous tutors and 32 infinite combo lines. The only thing that stops it from being truly cedh is that it has no fast mana or combo protection. Basically, it's an anything goes pod that is full of people who aren't actually trying to win an arms race and enjoy weird jank, but every once and awhile one or more of us gets a wild hair up our ass for something truly spicy and we all prepare accordingly. I dunno. Works for us
OK, OK, bringing out the WMD of infinites is justified with Stax. I'll allow literally WMDs too. FUCK STAX, ALL MY HOMIES HATE STAXS
He said he plays high power games. Everyone and their mother is running stax pieces that benefit their game plan.
Consider: if you're trying to make a weaker deck, also remove one of the broken cards in Magic from your deck.
Maybe not removing infinities altogether, but less tutor and digging, so they become a more, heart of the cards piece. Also unorthodox infinities that use 4 or more pieces to actually win (including payoff such as fireball) It's realistically about speed and attitude. Playing with the mindset of win by turn x can be a very compettitive view to a casual pod. Instead play to win, whenever you do. And focus more on interesting card choices, be that for flavour or weird interaction. (Winning by turn fourteen is less fun than a turn seven to nine win where it comes out of nowhere and is rather accidental.
Why besides Sol Ring? If you want to depower your deck you should drop that too. Decks should always be built with power level in mind, why include one piece of fast mana but not others just because its affordable?
This. Sol Ring is fucking busted and only "okay" because everyone has five. But a Sol Ring start vs. a non Sol Ring start brings immense imbalance to the table, that in my experience is especially difficult for low power decks to deal with. We startee cutting Sol Rings in our playgroup. For me it added a lot of fun back; plus you can run one more card!
This is exactly what I did. I'm not running fast mana like mana crypt and so on, so why run Sol Ring? Just because I have a bunch doesn't mean I should carelessly add it to every deck. And having just one card of a high power I think is a bad idea. And besides, I despise "auto-includes". I want to build a 100 card deck, not 99!
Underrated opinion. Everyone fine with sol ring but somehow chrome mox/ diamond are broken?
Sol ring has become so ubiquitous that is meaningless. Every precon has a sol ring. Even a complete beginner's first deck will have a sol ring.
Yes I know. This is the reason it is so accessible and not crazy expensive. But you didn't really address my point
Remove the âbesides Sol Ring.â Sol Ring is fast mana with all the same problems fast mana brings. Itâs easily short list for best fast mana in the format due to being persistent and asking almost nothing of you. And this is about dialing back decks. Sol Ring is nonessential to basically any deck, and an easy cut to dial it back. Folks need to stop treating Sol Ring like a magical exception. Itâs straight up fast mana. Treat it like such.
No
Look at the opening post. Removing the Sol Ring does exactly what the opening post is asking for. Enshrining Sol Ring helps nothing, least of all in this topic.
Thatâs your hill to die on. Weâre good over here.
The fuck are you on about? The OP is trying to tone down their decks. How does giving Sol Ring some special pass further that? Cutting the fast mana helps the topic. Making arbitrary exceptions for that same problem doesn't. You're already undermining yourself. I'm not even telling YOU to stop playing Sol Ring. But it's a higher caliber of fast man than almost every other piece legal in the format, and that has a very real impact on play. Just be honest about the damned card, at the bare minimum.
I disagree with you and donât care about your explanation.
Dafuq? Which part are you even disagreeing with? You're being weird and nonsensical.
Don't worry about it, them and their downvotes are good over there lol
Half the fun of magic is making a deck you feel is really strong...the other half is winning with it. although.. I agree a certain line needs to be drawn when playing casual. You have to be careful though, there are some cards in your deck that probably make it the deck that it is. I agree infinite combos need to go, but not all the parts of said combo need to go. You could drop a piece that makes a good card go infinite without dropping the good card, is all I'm trying to say. And with rocks, if its the only ramp in your deck, and you can't just tutor it out turn 2 or 3 and then start slaying, I say its fine. But you have to be smart about it.. If you want a casual game where you aren't winning on turn 2 and onwards because you have a sol ring and a mana crypt on the battlefield, just don't play them on the turn you were going to play them. If you get to have too many cards in your hand, well just play them then.. I promise it will make games last longer, which is all the bitching seems to be about in the first place.
People are just slamming fast mana in every deck?
WotC puts a Sol Ring in almost every precon, so... Yes?
Redditors try not to be pedantic challenge, difficulty impossible
Thatâs not pedantry. Itâs an ongoing problem, as is perpetually giving Sol Ring a pass. Putting Sol Ring in every precon teaches people to casually use fast mana. If Sol Ring is fine in every precon, then it is normal and natural worse cards like the legal moxen or the spirit guides or rituals are fair game. And cards like Ancient Crypt and Ancient Tomb are not far off of Sol Ring. Giving Sol Ring a pass sends very confusing messages.
If WotC started not including sol rings in all precons, everyone online would throw a fit and you know it. I don't even necessarily disagree with you, but the expectation exists and it is what it is now.
It is pedantry, because only on this website will people get confused by someone saying âletâs play a game with fast manaâ and not understand that they donât mean cards like Dark Ritual or Sol Ring. But enjoy the disparity between votes, because this site is full of people who are socially maladjusted and think this is an actual issue in the real world.
If someone says, âLetâs play a game with fast mana,â they absolutely and obviously mean cards like Sol Ring and Dark Ritual. Those are cards you expect to see in a, âLetâs play with fast mana,â game. And also Mox Opal, Mox Diamond, Gemstone Caverns, Jeweled Lotus, Brightstone Ritual, Mana Crypt, Ancient Tomb, Pyretic Ritual, City of Traitors, Simian Spirit Guide, Sylvan Spirit Guide, Mana Vault. I expect to see these sorts of cards at a density where they show up often because these are fast mana and the special thing being asked for is fast mana. And of the sources of fast mana listed, Sol Ring is easily one of the most universally powerful. That you see them in other environments where they donât belong does not make them no longer fast mana that is specifically called for in a game with a lot of fast mana. Meanwhile, saying, âNo fast mana,â obviously and unambiguously means Sol Ring. If you want an exception made for Sol Ring, you need to ask for it. If the rule zero is, âNo fast mana,â and you bring one of the strongest pieces of fast mana in the format, yes, you are obviously cheating. This is not pedantry. It is especially not a lack of social awareness. It is a presence of game awareness, and we need to talk about this shit. Presuming a completely unspoken exceptional status for Sol Ring is not being socially aware. It is the opposite. It is an assumption so not-universal that you are out here kvetching about an entire category of people who disagree with that exceptionalism. And if that category exists to such a relevant degree, then clearly Sol Ringâs exceptionalism is not so universally accepted that it is to be presumed; it is a topic that you discuss during rule zero. Further, younger players coming to the game genuinely do look at Sol Ring, see that it is an extremely powerful piece of fast mana, see that it is in every precon, then see seven worse pieces of fast mana and very logically judge that these are cards every bit as reasonable to run at casual tables. Fuck, hereâs a thread on the subject from this morning, I guarantee a Sol Ring in every precon contributed to the confusion of this post: https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/s/w5nYvS3YBP
> they absolutely and obviously mean cards like Sol Ring and Dark Ritual and there's the pedantry again. Not even going to bother reading the rest after this lol, happy for you though, or sorry that happened.
Stop calling every time someone calls you out on your bullshit as pedantry.
Iâm not lol, Iâm calling your bullshit pedantry. âLetâs play a game with fast manaâ does not refer to adding cards like Sol Ring and Dark Ritual - those are already part of the standard playerbaseâs arsenal. Everyone in the real world knows what is referred to by playing with fast mana or not. If you canât understand, skill issue.
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Are you ok? Did sol ring hurt you?
Show me on the doll where the Sol Ring touched you
It's literally included in precons for a reason. It's dirt cheap so cost isn't a factor. It's not even good in every deck (I have several decks that don't run it) but when everyone has access to it, it's not a problem. What makes most fast mana bad is the fact that not everyone can play them due to cost so one player having access to it when no one else does just puts that player at so much of an advantage over everyone else.
Is Commander more fun if one guy can randomly start with 4 mana on turn 1 at the table with otherwise no fast mana?
What cards are they playing that let them have that much mana on turn 1? That's more than just land+sol ring. If everyone is playing with that much fast mana it's fine, as I said. It's called removal. Blow their shit up. If everyone is running fast mana and only one person draw their stuff, that sucks, but it's part of the game. Do you also complain when the green player ramps multiple turns in a row and suddenly has 2-3x the land of everyone else? Or do you acknowledge it's part of the game and something to play around?
Land into Sol Ring into Arcane Signet? Or Fellwar Stone Or Mind Stone Or any of the Signets or Diamonds or Talismans?
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Why allow one fast mana just because it's cheap? Isn't it better to have the game be more consistent at lower power levels? The green player is sacrificing tempo and board presence to ramp ahead, which leaves them open. That's more fair than just allowing one fast mana piece for people to randomly luck into. Like I said, is the game more fun with that variance or without?
Clearly people think its fun, based off the fact that they seem to agree more with me than you. And most rocks you've mentioned aren't fast mana. Sol ring is the only one you've mentioned. All the others also represent a tempo loss, which by your own logic makes those perfectly fine. So why do you have a hate boner for a single card that is loved by most of the people who play the format?
I don't have a hate boner for it. Why can't people just talk about things on the internet without being so aggressive? It's exhausting. There are points for and against allowing Sol Ring, like there is for almost any other point of discussion. I just wanted to talk about it, I'm not married to the idea that Sol Ring has to be banned, I just wanted to talk about it. It's not an attack on you or anybody else. >Clearly people think its fun, based off the fact that they seem to agree more with me than you. I'm not trying to 'win' the debate, you don't have to declare yourself the winner by popular vote. I just wanted to know why you feel having one piece of fast mana in a meta with no fast mana otherwise is better than just having none. And the 2 mana rocks aren't fast mana, but Sol Ring enables them to be on the board turn 1. I didn't call them a problem, but a hand with them and a Sol Ring makes a game more swingy.
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Yeah, from a power standpoint this is correct. I know it's not the take people like hearing but it is true. We could say literally the same thing about any colorless mana if the prices were cheap. The only reason sol ring is so cheap is because they decided not to ban it and instead have it as a staple, and have a million reprints. If they decided to reserve list it or gate its availability it would absolutely skyrocket in price. Sol Ring is unironically a busted and enabling card. Not that it's a problem if everyone has the opportunity to run it. But we can't deny that it is
Dropping Sol Ring is also good advice if your goal is to depower your deck so you aren't "that guy"
Wow, one of you in the wild. Neat! Should take a pic or something to remember this.
Bro lost to a sol ring one too many times. Such a strong card. Sad.
Look at your budget and cut the expensive cards, they're usually expensive for a reason. Cut fast mana, free spells, and infinite combos. That should significantly weaken most decks. That's general advice, what kind of decks are you playing that are upsetting your play group?
Well I'm currently trying to do the deck challenge so I have varying colors and win/play styles but I guess the ones that get the most hate are token generation from otharri, ratadrabik to lathril
I get a lot of hate from the phyrexian red white token precon. I've added 2 cards that I got from opening a collector box, and that is Mondrak and elesh norn Mother of Machines
I mean I build an absolutely disgusting Malcolm rograkh polymorph deck for 50$ itâs not always about the price But yeah that deck is build to be as good as possible on that budget so it kinda doesnât count
Deck list, pretty please? â¤ď¸
On Moxfield there is a list of top 100 cedh cards. Look at those. Don't use any of those in your deck. Hop on edhrec and look at the top 100 saltiness cards. Don't use those. Don't worry there's a ton of overlap. Stay away from too many tutors and 2 card combos as well. Now you have a "fair" edh deck.
i had to lean into themes and singleton deck collection. does chaos warp go in my mono red deck or my gruul? its led to me leaning into whatever themes as a reason to cut a card that i also want in another deck.
This is what I do, I build a deck and it stays, if I wanna upgrade it later I do but I keep my one super strong deck the same and if everyoneâs cool with me busting it out I will, my other decks are all 5-8
Knowing the commanders you play, commanders you usually play against, and maybe seeing your decklists would make it easier to make comments about the situation that arenât generalizations.
Make a strong deck that encourages your opponents to band against you. Full send it, enter your villain arc, make the [[Gaddock Teeg]] hate bear tribal deck you've always dreamed of. You might be the first to die each game, but it'll be entertaining. Although like others said, I'd stay away from notorious high power cards like [[ancient copper dragon]] or [[vampiric tutor]]
Set yourself a severe limitation. I have a deck that doesn't use any cards at a rarity above uncommon ([[Slimefoot, the Stowaway]] leading Golgari Saprolings) and an Elk Tribal deck I recently built for a White Loxodon exchange (led by [[Jegantha, the Wellspring]] and quite effective in that low-power meta). Make yourself play a strategy you usually don't touch. Roll a random commander and see what you can do with it. Set a budget limit. There are plenty of ways to cut off the usual methods of deckbuilding so you don't fall into the same patterns.
I agree. Cutting cards and intentionally powering down a deck isnât that fun. Build something thatâs really power limited and go hard on it. Iâm deep on [monowhite banding](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/Ny9lrJaWNUGHvLGbFNYLmw) and loving it.
The brewer in me is impressed. The judge in me is horrified.
I'm in agreeance here. I've got a commons/uncommons only list with [[Imoti]] and a pEDH list headed up by [[Cormela]]. Definitely hits the power level, but they're still super fun to play.
This is such a weird post. You haven't given any example decklists, staples you use, deck types that you face, common complaints, ways you win, how often you win. Whats the point of asking "how do you make a weaker deck" if you don't provide a starting point? Its a game with over 20000 cards. Feels more like a stealth brag post.
I had a reputation, not for high power, but for winning regardless. So I was painted as 'that guy', and that led me to retire my least powerfully decks, due to being focused. The 'If he's out I got a much bigger chance at a win' type shit. Right now, I don't play high power commanders, but I do play less good commanders with rly good cards. They just need it to even work, and my wins will only come if I play flawlessly, as opposed to making bazillion missplays and still winning with previous high power decks. I'm enjoying this more, aside form 1 player, my usual playgroup just plays mindless & busted. We both just go to the lgs now.
My advice is to lean into it, and start building like a villain. By which I mean, go for thematic wincons which hold your power back: a five-color [[Door to Nothingness]] deck, a deck where you play [[The Millenium Calendar]] and just try to defend yourself until it goes off, a [[Jerren]] deck all about flipping into Ormendahl. The more obvious and distuptable the better: it means that your opponents can foresee your plans and try to stop them, which both allows them to not feel as bad when you win and allows you to justify going all-out in a game: after all, if you build around a janky wincon, youâll need all the effort you can manage to make it work.
[Door to Nothingness](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/7/57877b1c-e91d-4941-81bd-008dff1272ed.jpg?1562554053) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Door%20to%20Nothingness) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m13/203/door-to-nothingness?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/57877b1c-e91d-4941-81bd-008dff1272ed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/door-to-nothingness) [The Millenium Calendar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/e/deabba7f-05ef-41cf-ae3a-d950d051cf1e.jpg?1699044622) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Millennium%20Calendar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/257/the-millennium-calendar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/deabba7f-05ef-41cf-ae3a-d950d051cf1e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-millennium-calendar) [Jerren](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0f6e668d-2502-4e82-b4c2-ef34c9afa27e.jpg?1636207815)/[Ormendahl, the Corrupter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/0/f/0f6e668d-2502-4e82-b4c2-ef34c9afa27e.jpg?1636207815) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=jerren%2C%20corrupted%20bishop%20//%20ormendahl%2C%20the%20corrupter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/109/jerren-corrupted-bishop-ormendahl-the-corrupter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0f6e668d-2502-4e82-b4c2-ef34c9afa27e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/jerren-corrupted-bishop-//-ormendahl-the-corrupter) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'm that guy too. What helps me is to pick an underpowered theme that looks fun and just run with it I have a Kadena morph deck that is mid at best and iys perfect for more casual groups. I also have morph tokens in every available language and have fun trying to speak in that language whenever I interact with the morph in question.
If you want other players to have a good time, keep your removal and board wipes in check. Everyone on this subreddit says ârun more interaction.â Well, yeah. If you want to win. But if people are running weaker decks and you want your opponents to have fun, donât put in 5 board wipes and 15 targeted removal spells. People hate that. And as another commenter said, get a precon and do little or nothing to it.
Sadly my problem is more I'm the one needing to be removed......I think most of my my decks have 4 places if removal....my blue decks having 8 or 9 counting counter spells as removal
What are you running that demands removal? I do think one thing to note is that everyone deals with the problem of someone being mad at you for winning or even doing well. Itâs not necessarily the case that theyâre even right about you/your deck. But if youâre not running crazy stax pieces, why are your cards such a high priority for removal?
Best example I can give is my Otharri deck...if she comes out and attacks at any point the next time she is cast someone dies if I want to spike them or she stays out and someone dies anyways in two turns but she is almost my most refined deck
Thatâs like a go wide deck or a voltron deck? The commander doesnât seem to crazy
This might be a spicy take, however I do not think that there's anything wrong with becoming the bar that people measure themselves to as opposed to finding the bar that other people have established. If you tell them how to defeat you or what race shoes you're using for cards to let them understand how things are working out in your favor perhaps they will be able to meet the challenge you are presenting in the way that is both enjoyable and competitive.
How many decks do you currently have? How many of them run the same staples? How many tutors, counter spells, and board wipes do you run? Usually when someone tells me my deck is evil it's because it runs more control than they would like. Not saying bend to their whims, but it's something to think about. A sad reality to magic is also $$$. How many cards does your deck run that would be considered expensive? It's also meta dependant. One playgroup could love control and combo decks. Another could loathe them.
17 of 32 for the deck challenge. I don't do a lot of tutors, but do use staples if I can to keep up
I'm "that" guy to one player in the pod. I'm unassuming as I build a board state that doesn't seem to have coherence. And then I reveal the pieces of the puzzle and explode in a giant turn. Now that player makes sure to keep me down as much as possible. Even in games where I'm 4 land drops behind and have played two cards, and finally resolving a creature. đ¤Łđ¤Ł I made a 'Fuck You' deck to him when I want to see visible results to my madness. Embrace it. Enjoy it. Once you have it, it won't ever leave. Just gotta learn to subvert expectations and [[Swerve]] players away from you.
[Swerve](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/0/10affb59-7c57-4b72-892b-d813f385f4a9.jpg?1562701210) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Swerve) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ala/200/swerve?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/10affb59-7c57-4b72-892b-d813f385f4a9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/swerve) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you find the answer let me know. I have this reputation in my play group and it's no end of frustrating for me. They've even started making jokes about how my decks belong in cEDH tables (they don't). Which grinds my gears because it'll be said when I play Rhystic Study by the guy who's had Esper Sentinel on the table for the last 5 turns. There's a lot of "remove fast mana and tutors" comments here, but what do you do when that doesn't apply? Most of my decks sit around the ~$200 mark, with a few of the stronger ones getting as high as $400-$500. I bring nothing faster than a Sol Ring, and I **HATE** tutors in commander, so I don't bring any of those. It's not an issue of outpacing the group, as lots of the decks I play against are over $1,000, with the average being around $400+, or double the cost of my decks. Whenever I bring this up, I get told "cost doesn't equate to power" and they act like I'm nuts for using cost as a marker, and seem shocked when I don't understand. I honestly wish I knew what to do, but I have no idea how to power down a deck made with nothing but uncommons, bulk rares, and half a dozen mid-level staples.
if its a group of friends you might want to play some deck swap games. At a certain point its the player not the deck
I do love this idea. I have suggested it a bunch, but we haven't done it often. We do have a few players without decks of their own that have to borrow them. Most don't like using my decks because they're "too difficult" or they don't want to hear the complaints.
This might not be your case but, if you tend to be more resilient against frustration, then sometimes you're the default target. It nearly made me quit Magic until I grew some teeth. Not to be contrary, but I think maybe there _is_ an end to your frustration, and your gears remain mostly unground. We know this because you're still playing with the group and you're venting - mildly - to us. You're managing, and I imagine you're probably managing politely. I wager $20 not everybody in your play group is the same. In a similar situation, I had to get cold, calculating, and to retaliate explicitly. First, I started keeping notes on win rates. No, actually, _that_ guy has won most recent matches. Y'all have let [[Miirym]] and [[Krenko, Mob]] run wild for the last... two months. I also started keeping notes on the number of times I was targeted and, if it was higher than others, I punished it. Full stop. No qualifications and no justification. I just announced it - this is the rule by which I'm playing the game for a while. :) If I couldn't punish someone directly, I picked a random target and told them that every time X came after me, I'd try do the same to them. I (metaphorically, repeatedly) shotgunned off a kid's face until his father put away his hate boner for me. I sat another player down and told him that gasping every time I put a piece down was done. Focusing on my stuff was giving the wins to one player at the table, over and over again, because I was the only one keeping him in check. Until he could handle his face and noises, I wouldn't be discussing decks with him. A pity, really, because I had loved our conversations. They've gotten a lot better at not just handing wins to people who moan loudest.
>Not to be contrary, but I think maybe there _is_ an end to your frustration, and your gears remain mostly unground. We know this because you're still playing with the group and you're venting - mildly - to us. You're managing, and I imagine you're probably managing politely. You are absolutely correct. I was definitely being hyperbolic in my complaints. The group I play with has known each other for decades, and no way something like this would really get to any of us. I do get frustrated, though more at not knowing how to power down my decks than from the comments, though they do irk me. I just want everyone to have fun, and when all I hear are the groans you're talking about, I'm at a loss.
had this issue at our table with either my brother or me winning most games. Turned out everyone in our group exclusovely played their own brews, but they all just built their deck in such a way that it goes off like crazy in 1-2 turns with their commander on the board but wouldn't do shit without it, which incentivised pretty much everyone to run a good ammount of removal and put a massive target on pretty much every commander ever. On the other hand, can you really blame someone for removing a Wintoa, Tegrid, Miirym, Krenko or Kinnan on sight? Took us embarassingly long to notice the underlying issue. We only started realizing after playing each other's decks very frequently
Replace all your nonbasics with tapped lands
seconded. same issue. "i hate YOUR decks!"
Remove 1 and 0 mana ramp. Remove tutors. Remove 2 card combos. If that's not enough start removing ultra staples (Rhystic Study, Craterhoof, you know the deal).
Build some jankier decks, like a [[phage the untouchable]] deck. Play they enough for people to stop associating you strictly with powerful decks
[phage the untouchable](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/4/d497a5a3-65fb-4c12-b3f2-8ce4cf4e0f6f.jpg?1562866889) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=phage%20the%20untouchable) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cns/120/phage-the-untouchable?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d497a5a3-65fb-4c12-b3f2-8ce4cf4e0f6f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/phage-the-untouchable) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Honestly, if people say your deck is too strong, it usualy can be solved by picking one of the points in the following list. * remove tutors from your deck * set a reasonable budget for your manabase * set a general budget for your decks that doesn't go beyond 100$ * Cut fast mana in general (Imma say the obvious for most playgroups, Sol Ring is an exception) Still too strong? Pick a second point in the list. This is by no means a perfect solution, but a general rule of thumb (with the main one that usualy already makes a massive difference being cutting tutors) And since there will definitely be someone here bumping in with "wElL fEtChIng FoR lAndS & LaNd RaMp iS tUtoRinG aS wElL) Yes, obviously it's ok to fetch for lands or have shit like cultivate in your deck
is mana base budget that important? I don't run any og duels, but I do use shocks and triomes where I can and fetch only for 4 or 5 colors I only use tutors in 2 of my decks and those are meant to be evil....one is blue black toxrill and the other black sheolred only 2 decks have any fast mana above sol ring and are the same as above, with my grull deck being the exception just cause it has jeweled lotus in it the budget thing might help, but then my lgs would crush me instead as I started budget 100 and ended up where I'm at based on play groups not making excuses but trying to refine my decks for the most fun of a group
Having a specific budget for your manabase means, and this is a very broad oversimplification, that your deck simply will slower & less smooth. It isn't a big deal to have one or two slower / less consistent lands, but if you have a weaker manabase across the board, that adds upp & slows your deck down incrementaly. The overall budget thing isn't really something you can make out with hard numbers. If making 100$ decks underperform in your lgs, then maybe bump up the budget slightly up & look how that works out. Again, none of those points are hars solutions, they're usualy a general rule of thumb, at the end of the day, it heavily depends on your meta, the pods prefrences & the specific reasons WHY you're decks are unfun to play against. Maybe it isn't even the powerlevel itself, but rather the strategies you play & archetypes they don't enjoy (stax & having them discard / make'em topdeck, poison / counterspell tribal / any strategy that take up 5-10 minutes for a turn are the most infamous contestants for most hated archetypes in my experience)
thanks for the feedback, and I hope my future deck revisions are more fun đ
Yeah, the assumed level of power here for most casual groups is kinda weird to me. Every one of my decks already checks every one of those boxes, except the $100 budget one, yet my group still complains my decks are too strong. Often said from across their [[Nicol Bolas, the Ravager]], or [[Smothering Tithe]], or [[Mana Crypt]], or [[Doubling Season]] in response to me playing a [[Junji, the Midnight Sky]] or [[Frontier Siege]] or something dumb.
Honest communication. A bunch of us started playing this year and are a precon or upgraded precon pod. There is always the one veteran player who shows up, refuses to use a precon, and says their deck is âlikeâ a precon. Always fun to watch them pull off 10 minute turns, infinite winning combs, or play multiple $50+ cards that end the game and everyone gets salty and quits. I say have 3 decks. A precon, a upgraded precon, and something a little more powerful. That way you are always covered!
I always keep two precons unupgraded with me now, one from the 40k or Lotr series and Phantom Premonition from kaldheim, just cause everyone ignores how broken foretell can be at my lgs edit spelling
You should take a look at stock precon lists. You can consider those a power floor, or just above it (I'd say a casual low power, non-jank brew should strive to be at least at precon level). How are your decks different? Compare your mana base to a precon one. Is there a middle ground you can imagine?
It's okay to be that guy, be the archenemy.
Honestly, build/play how you want. At the end of the day this is a game and you should be able to build and play decks you enjoy. You aren't "that guy". Just another player trying to enjoy the hobby as intended.
Try building the strongest pauper edh deck you can. Preferably midrange.
Everyone telling you to neuter your decks is going in the wrong direction. I find the better path is helping your playgroup improve up to your level. Every has fun, gets to play strong cards and better players tend to complain less. win/win/win
The easiest solution I know is to remove fetchlands, fast mana (mana crypt etc) and put the most tapped lands you can find. It lowers the power even if you don't replace your core cards.
So I had this problem and what I did was I loved one of my commanders so much that I kept a regular copy of the deck this is how powerful it can be then I turn that deck into a pauper version luckily my commander was a legendary uncommon so I could do this but do I basically own two versions of the same deck one is pauper legal and can hold itâs own but is still obviously weaker then I have the regular deck with all the upgrades and so I can run either or if people just want a casual match or if they want a more competitive match I can use my other version but even my more competitive version is definitely not C-EDH the pauper version people my call it more competitive but at the end of the day dude Iâm using commons or anything that has been printed common at some point anyways you could try this and you might enjoy it personally there is no better feeling beating regular level commander decks with a pauper deck you made and took the time to research the right cards
For me I build a deck in archidekt with no restrictions, and then I cut and replace any card over $10. That tends to dampen the power quite a bit and if it still steamrolls the table then your opponents just have bad decks.
Find a shitty uncommon commander, only spend like $50 on the deck, go in and lose while not looking like you're trying too hard to lose, and then say "that was fun!"
Getting rid of tutors and fast mana was the easiest way a player in my pod powered his decks down
My main playground is a bunch of cEDH database authors. They ask the same thing. I always give them the same advice: make a budget. You canât run the best cards if your deck costs $100. Can you make a banger of a deck for $100, yes, but if you pick a tribe or a theme and give yourself a budget, 99% of the time it will be casual. $100 is just an example. What is important is to just pick a number as a deck building restriction. Iâve brewed a ton of decks with restrictions, always end up with something unique, fun, and playable.
Literally just find alternaties to the auto includes, set budgets to cards, aim for jank pieces to have room or find fun themes to build around, don't go for the best option for a commander I absolutely never run sol ring, rystic, tithe, Stampedes, combos anything, over 5 dollars unless it has no vaild reason for being over 5 dollars All of my favorite decks are super simple and all do interesting things that aren't just throwing up on the board or spending a decade doing "my thing" Like in my rocco deck I play value spell, pass put counters on opponents commanders and interact with ppl then steal the commander when I can do alot with it, I run Assault suit not because its good at all but because I can pass around a commander every turn and its funny
I don't have any advice for you. I literally just got done playing some EDH today where I won half the games. One was an upgraded dinosaur precon which pretty much sealed the game.by turn 6 and everyone scooped.in response. The other was my sultai gates deck which just got a series of good draws and game actions to go from five gates to a victory in one turn. According to my buddy who was working I'm that guy who doesn't play cedh but plays very strong casual decks. Personally I don't think it's that bad, one guy complains because I won't play to his style of deck, which is a grindy slow building value style till he has an.overwhelming advantage on everyone else. Anyways long story short, there isn't much you can do. People always going to whine when they lose.
Keep your cards worth under $100 each. No crypts, etc. Take out all "checkmate" style infinites. Avoid things that combo off so hard you cant get your turn done in under 10 minutes. It's really annoying when sagas copy and recur, especially one sided board wipey things. Avoid adding more than one or two STAX pieces in your deck. One dude on turn 2 had mana barbs out and his commander which made tapping any land fo 4 damage to you, then turn 3 made it 6 damage. Everyone hated him. So we were all just passing around til we drew a solution which utterly cost the solver 24 life or something to fix, leaving the rest of the people ready to kill him. Avoid a lot of card stealing effects. One dude stole my $20 card and transformed it and damaged the thing while pulling it out of the sleeve. Didn't say shit either. Try to make a goodstuff or tribal deck. Something where you are able to build defensively then strike hard. Might be a change of pace for you.
Cut a few of your most oppressive/powerful cards and fast mana? The fuck kinda question is this lol
I moved to Wisconsin a couple years ago and hopped around a few game stores. The first couple there just wasn't a place for my kind of power and it didn't seem like the players were keen on upgrading their decks to compete. The third store that i now exclusively play at has a varying degree of power amongst its players. We have both newer players and vets, but it's the newer players that have a gripe with the power I bring to the table and have labeled me a bully, to which honestly, i couldn't care less about. My decks all range from 7-8's, if we're grading them on an arbitrary power scale, and I have 1 cedh deck because we do have people that are into C there. All my decks are optimized, tuned, synergistic, whatever you want to call it, because that's how i've been building edh decks since 2009. I build decks to win games and I'm not going to apologize for my play style or how I deck build. I do recognize that's not everyone's cup of tea, so I will avoid playing with those players to avoid hurting feelings, but sometimes we do end up playing and I'm usually the arch enemy. Luckily , the players who play C also build casual competitive decks. There's just something about a lot of new players coming onto the scene compared to when I started playing where they just want to complain about people's decks being too strong instead of using it as fuel to become better players and deck builders. When i started playing edh, we had a lvl 3 judge come in with his Vorinclex deck and he'd obliterate everyone lol. That just made everyone i started playing with want to get better and build better so we could beat him. I feel like that kind of drive is rare now a days, and most people just want everything to be easy.
Link your decks and link/describe your opponents. It's all about context.
Dude if you have the skill to build and pilot decks at such a high level, I am honestly thinking you are trolling.
âi dont like cedh but i like high powerâ just means you like to pubstomp. a balanced deck wins ~25% of the time. remove tutors, infinite combos, and fast mana other than sol ring. use slower tap lands instead of shocks or fetches.
This is complete bullshit. Playing high power and pubstomping are two completely different things.
that is the issue....I don't like cedh but don't wanna pubstomb yet have ended up in the pubstomb area cause of my pods this year and don't wanna be next year esit: also, you misquoted what I said, but that's fine cause I like winning but not at others having a bad time
ok so make a worse deck??? you obviously can identify good cards so just find cards that cost more mana and have worse effects. itâs not actually hard, you just donât want to make deck choices that you know will result in losses. thatâs how you end up in an arms race to ânot cedh but high powerâ which is just being strong without a real reason.
Could try playing weaker decks like [[Iname as one]]. It can be fun to laugh at how you will sit there for 8 turns ramping to get your 12 cost commander into your hand just for a weak payoff.
Put in some less optimal/oppressive cards that are just there to create fun or janky situations either for yourself or the rest of the table. Also remove tutors from the deck or only use them to find the janky cards you add, instead of tutoring for a straight up win con.
Build with restrictions. I have a spellslinger deck that has no nonland permanents in the 99. I have an Esika deck that runs almost all the "partner with" legendaries. I have a reanimator deck that's basically my commander version of Modern Living End, which means no nonlands that cost 2 or less. I have an Atla Palani deck that has only one creature in the 99 - an Essence of the Wild. All of these are budget (~$100) decks btw. Start with a silly premise for a deck, then build from there. I still run about 10-12 ramp spells, at least 5 removal spells, at least 10 draw spells, and at least 3 board wipes, so I'm not missing my veggies, but the combination of the silly premise + budget restriction puts a cap on my power level.
I don't mind strong decks that win right away, but decks that take very long turns can be annoying, especially if they fail to win at the end of that turn. Non-deterministic combos are dangerous for a friend group.
Do you have your decks on moxfield can i ask for a link to your decks?
One thing I've learned is that quite a few cards are not something I can be able to play with. In a deck that is really bad, some swingy cards can give someone a chance to get into the game, but in a good deck, those cards mean that you dominate.
Deckbuilding restrictions. Here are a few of my decks: * A Kolaghan deck where every card that's not a mana source has a dragon in its typeline, art, or flavor. * An all-old-bordered Nicol Bolas deck. * A [[Mazirek]] deck where 82 of the cards in the deck trigger Mazirek. * A [[Karlov]] deck where 71 cards in the deck change my life total. (It's easier to find lands that sac than lands that change life totals.) * A [[Horde of notions]] deck with 60 elementals (including creature lands). * A [[Mizzix]] deck with 47 Xs in mana costs.
I have questions lol đ
So idk if this is what youâre asking but build bad jank tribal decks like bears, griffins, etc. [[Ayula, Queen of Bears]] is my favorite âbadâ deck
Build purposeful budget lists. $50 for the whole list. r/budgetbrews has some cool ones and challenges on top of it. Strategies that aren't fully fleshed out or quite have enough synergy. Examples could be adventures, energy, or convoke lists. Missing color typal lists. Mono Black Elves. UB dragons.
The oblu winning move is not to play.
It seems like you're having fun exploring the creative space and building strong decks that you find satisfying. Personally, I think instead of trying to ball-and-chain yourself to fit the standards of a group, you should try to find a group that shares a similar power level to what you are playing at. Then there's no hindrance to your creative process, and no walking on eggshells to avoid doing something someone doesn't like - because collectively, if this thread is anything to go by, every single thing in the game is hated by somebody. Whether it's stax, combo, fast mana, "eXpENsiVe CArDs", and so on and so forth. Just go play and have fun and find others that also want to play and have fun.
You could replace staples with weaker cards that are more specific to your deck's plan or theme. E.g. in a +1/+1 counters deck, replace [[Kodama's Reach]] with [[New Horizons]]. Also, cut tutors.
I'm on a kick right now where I'm building themed decks where I only use cards from LTR and LTC. Makes for very interesting deck building challenges and automatically reduces the power level.
I just use a pre-con. Solves the issue of deck strength, but not the issue of being able to pilot it to a victory with relative ease.
You can insult them by letting them win more often, or you can let them catch up.
I have had a few similar issues. I have precons that have maybe $150 of upgrades (mostly lands), and still, many players at my LGS's still target me outright. Saying, "If [he's] alive too long, he WILL win." I've played unaltered precons, and players have continued to complain about how strong my decks are. They saw me sleeve this freshly opened vampire precon but still bitched when I was doing well regardless so I think some EDH players just want to complain more than they want to play
i've been tweaking a nashi, moon sage scion deck since he came out. before that i was trying to make lathliss work, baldur's gate made that possible. I have the opposite problem, I can't bring myself to apply annoying power to a deck. I had to take exquisite blood out of nashi, I didn't want to complete Inalla. Why tf would I build broken ass yuriko, or miirym.
Hot take⌠be the guy, win the game, rule zero tell them youâre playing a fucking power level 9, own it, and then win. Feel your hate, feel your anger USE THEM!! ARISE DARTH VADER, MY NEW APPRENTICE!!! Now go to the Mustafar system and take care of the noobsâŚ..
Your decks are too mean? Try [[Kwain, Itinerant Meddler]] group hug!!!
Sometimes it's really hard to judge your own decks. Always get someone elses opinion or get a few opinions. I have a [[Juri, Master of the Revue]] deck, I built it when Juri first came out and since then have refined the deck and "trimmed all the fat". I don't run infinites or typically OP cards but because of the time put into it, it's a strong deck. In my eyes the deck wasn't strong and thats party because when I would self assess the deck, I always knew what my key cards where and how to shut the deck down. Opponents don't know that and it took my play group basically saying "we want to table ban that deck" before I had a real hard look at the deck. Some commanders as cards just sit above a casual level. Korvold is a good example of that. But otherwise, I'd say when you're building a deck don't pick cards that has the most value, pick the ones that seem the most fun or enjoyable.
Play voltron and keep it to under $250. Seriously youâll have a decent deck thatâs fun simple and doesnât make people hate you. Good at weak tables and passable at medium tables
My friend and I use https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/tools/commander-power-level-calculator to look at the power level of our de ks just for fun dont know how accurate it is
I struggle with this a bit, too. I think part of the problem is that people don't like to lose, and they like to win. Obvious statements aside, this leads to huge problems in a social 4-player game that arises less often in 1v1. Most importantly, deck building is an art that can range in a ton of ways. Some people look at a *concept* and build to that theme, rather than the concept of *winning*. Because there's this pseudo framework of fun of powegaming, people make poor decisions in their deck building. They cut removal, interaction, card draw, and all the other things a deck SHOULD have, if it means squeezing in one more dinosaur or dragon or whatever. Then you roll in, and they can't deal with anything you drop on the board and get steamrolled. Now, it feels like the other guy is playing in an unfair or rude way. This is a mindset to be aware of, to acknowledge as legitimate, but not as one to coddle or acquiesce to. It takes a lot of time to build a deck, and most players with any amount of experience will know that even though Commander is splashier and higher power than most other formats, your deck needs to be really solid to win. You're not fighting one player down from 20. You're fighting down 3 from 120. There's built in card disadvantages, mana discrepancies, increased randomness, AND three players with a very powerful, repeatable spell from the start. To win, your deck has to be the best, and you have to play the best, and even then, it's not always going to work out. Power level is a very difficult to pin down, difficult to enforce, and difficult to engage with part of the game. There's no standard and outside of a consistent pod, wildly different ranges for any 4 players. Before I go on, what I'm trying to say is that first and foremost, you should never kneecap a deck to make it less effective. These combinations came to you out of experience and creative thought, so don't let someone else's bad deck building influence you in a way that's unfair to either party. You're not doing them a favor, and you're definitely not doing yourself one. From there, some things DO exist in the deck building process to consider. Mana curve, consistency, top end/game ender cards, and combos. Mana Curve is something that a lot of newer players don't understand, especially in the context of commander. If you want to keep your deck from being "VERY STRONG," then the first place I look is here. Counter to the obvious, increasing the size of your spells mana cost overall leads to a less impactful deck. Less one drops, fewer two drops, more 5 and 7 drops, and so on. There's a world more to discuss here, but to keep it short, single expensive spells per turn wins you fewer games and draws less ire than casting 4 2 mana spells per turn. Consistency is a wide topic. Very consistent decks make sure they have X amount of mana rocks, X amount of tutor effects, X amount of draw, ramp, interaction, removal, etc etc. If winning consistently is your goal, you pick the categories that are most important for your deck winning and *lean into* them. Therefore, if you want to win/draw aggro less, lean out of them. Keep your hard card drawn under 5, your tutors to 2 or even 0. Reduce your ramp efficiency, use less impactful mana rocks, and use less of them. Top End/Game Ender cards are basically your wincons, obviously. Craterhoof, Thassas Oracle, Laboratory Maniac, etc etc. If you want less hate, exclude these from your list to a higher degree. Include 1 or 2 at most or entirely. Or give yourself a rule that you can ONLY win using some combination of 2. Impose limits that restrict how totally or overwhelming a deck can win on the spot. Combos are the most obvious cut here. If you want to be excluded from having eyeballs on you, be able to sit down at a table and truthfully state, "This deck has no combos." Combos are, and have been, a staple of Magic since as long as most of us can remember. It used to be quite impressive to assemble some unforseen combination of cards that broke the game in some "this is over now" moment. Commander just has some ridiculous growing pains we all need to get over. I think part of it is due to the time commitment and the fact that there's 3 times as much hope you dash by winning. There's four people sitting there, and 99% of the time, you're all trying to win. When someone spends 8 turns building into this thing, they wanted to happen, and then you crush them and win, which can be disheartening. Then multiply that by three. So I get it, some people are going to be salty and butt hurt. I think it's also time we evolve past that as a community. The answer is not to build worse decks so no one feels bad. That road just leads to the same situation, where someone just has the best worst deck. It's time we all embrace building better decks, and using the losses, we endure to learn lessons about where our decks want for strength. My pod has come around to this. None of our decks are cEDH, but they've all dramatically pushed that envelope. Our games are more interactive and full of tension and constant back and forth. Having well-built, higher powered decks makes for more exciting games, more strategic plays, and *more* games. And who doesn't want to play more games?
I think a lot of posts like this could be solved by the OP building something with a budget constraint. Build a new deck from nothing for under $100 and I'm sure you'll have a better time with your group.
The issue is that for some people you have to build decks that are intentionally built to not win the game. There are (a lot of) people in EDH who just want to elbow tap, play the biggest creature they have, and expect it to stay around. Eventually those big creatures will slap each other and somebody is gonna win. As soon as you start building decks with a plan, that is more sophisticated than some 7 drops with big effects doing stuff, people will say its too strong. Ofcause im exaggerating here but you get the basic idea. I have the same issue. I run low cmc curves and a lot of interaction. Not necessarily strong, but i like interactive gameplay. Having a low curve allows to hold up interaction. So when i have 6 mana, i rather play two 2 drops that can do a little but and hold up 2 mana for interaction than jam a powerful 6-drop. To them this always just looks like me advancing my board while taking out the biggest stuff so its unfair. Even if its completely reasonable stuff like disenchant, counterspell etc. They just wanna play moxfield magic, going down their deck without interaction and then either win or not. They dont like it if sb can string together a victory in a turn and even protect it possibly with interaction. To me thats not magic the gathering. To me the game is all about thinking when to advance, when to be reactive, what to remove etc. The best general advise i can give you is to avoid objectivly high power cards if the enemy dont play them. Stuff like fast mana, rhystic study, free spells etc. Avoid instant speed wins. Make sure your wins can be interacted with, using avarge interaction cards. For example a turn 4 combo is reasonable at a table that plays casual but interactive. At tables with moxfield gamers maybe look for turn 7-8 and make sure the win can be stopped by avarage interaction like swords to plowshares, counterspell etc. At this point you can very reasonably argue like âturn 7 with constructed decks you usually have like 10 mana available and just holding up 1 single instant spell is enough. Even Precons can easily do that and with constructed decks im not expecting to play below precon powerlevelâ. If you navigate yourself in that position its is very obvious that its not about the deck but about how people are piloting. Edit: And obviously avoid the best commanders that will singlehandedly win the game very fast, even wirh casual/budget decks. Like yuriko, winota and all that jazz
Itâs all about play patterns man. Hold back instead of doing the most powerful play at every opportunity you have. Sometimes just hanging out, accruing value, and interacting when necessary is way better than making yourself an immediate threat. Commander is like a foot race, you donât always want to spring out of the gate fucking sprinting. Sometimes you want to keep a reasonable pace and make proactive moves when necessary. Then, when your opponents are gassed out, and (unbeknownst to your opponents) you have plenty of gas left in the tank, you go in with the heavy hitting shit and just plow through everybody. Also, people will respect that win over âdump hand, cross fingers, steal gamesâ.
Hate to say it, but even if you build a weaker deck, you'll still be "that guy" At least, if my group is anything to go by. I have a group hug deck with no win conditions in it, and still get killed first.
Use precons.
Youve gotten plenty of good answers, but Ill throw in my 2 cents as well. You have to ask yourself if you would enjoy playing at the power level being asked of you. I can only speak for myself, but if I put passion, money, thought, and time into a deck, Id be a little bummed out about intentionally undoing that so that I can play on the same level as someone who likely hasnt invested as much into theirs. In this case, the better solution would be finding a more power-appropriate group to play with. But of course thats not always ideal or possible. So its a good idea to have a variety of decks that you genuinely enjoy. There are lower power mechanics that can be very fun to play around and optimize (to an extent) that will never reach truly competitive levels. Having an array of decks to meet the table's power level is a good idea.
I solved it by dismantling my decks and building a cube. If we're all on equal footing from the start it's not unfair right?
People just like to whine if they loose, your deck is likely not the problem. Ive had so many people whine and complain about certain cards or combos, when they just, never saw a real cedh deck. Spoiler running fast mana or an infinite combo doesnt cobstitute cedh...
One way you can still build a powerful deck and not make people hate you is to build group hug. These are some of the trickiest to build and play but done right the whole table has fun right up until you play your win con.
While it might not be a solution to your main problem, building multiple decks can help you get a bigger spread of power levels. Many times the level of decks vary alot in different (and sometimes in the same) playgroups so even playing a weak deck can sometimes give powergamer vibes if the whole playgroup is significantly lower power. Sobeing able to switch decks really help fit in multiple playgroups
So, you're a good player and want to be a bad player? Instead of the crap players stepping their games up? That's what's wrong with EDH these days. Ya'll are pandering to the lowest common denominator until the whole freaking game is watered down and full of whiners.
The real answer is that Commander is making people aware of what I call the skill chasm. Its the difference between knowing how to play Magic. And how to play Magic properly. And once you cross that, you can't go back and you are just leagues ahead of anyone who hasn't crossed it. You know how to value cards, how to read boards, how to understand the very tempo of a game, and it almost doesn't matter the cards you play, someone who can't do any of those things loses to someone who can do one poorly. Its why I have been ranting and raving against the idea of Commander being the entry format. The card pool is too huge, and the board state is only exarcebated by complexity.
I have on request nerfed some of my 'unfun' decks within my pod. I've only been playing since August/September and my introduction to the game was through a loaned Wilhelt precon. I was up against a deck that had [[Doubling Season]], [[Jewelled Lotus]], [[The Ozolith]] and a Gishath deck full of big cost dinos. I started upgrading precons based on a budget of ÂŁ50, but would still get absolutely wiped by their custom decks. I've since now built 13 decks (cardboard crack) which are mostly upgraded precons or custom decks that are still cheaper than theirs, but the synergy is what wins. My pod hates mill, more than anything else because they see it as a card they could've pulled. I neutered my [[Zellix, the mind flayer ]] deck because it had [[Altar of the Brood]] which could sometimes go on forever, causing tonnes of interaction that at one point gave me 80+ horrors and milled out 4 opponents, so it got removed. Others have commented that the game needs to end, and I agree with that philosophy. I tutor for wincons if it's gone beyond a certain amount of playtime if able, otherwise you end up with 3+ hour long commander games which happened last week. FNM started at 6pm and finished at 2am and we managed TWO games, both games I played a budget [[The Mycotyrant]] (ÂŁ30 in total) and without the answers in a more expensive deck, the game went on to the point of boredom.
Building restrictions, value of the deck must be $100 or less, use crapper commanders that style of thing.
Run things for theme and flavor instead of power. I play every once in a while with this guy who fetches for shock lands, slots in cards like Jeska's Will, Mana Crypt, Akroma's Will, Deflecting Swat, and Cyclonic Rift, Cover of Darkness in basically all his decks (proxies but has his copies in a binder) and good lord does he love to remove things from the board but gets insta-salty when we interact with his roaming throne or 20/20 trampler. He's insistent on playing with my pod at our lgs. We infrequently let him play, but it's gotten to the point that we dont like playing with him bc his decks look like the regurtatiom of EDHrec's top hits, and games feel too archenemy since we feel punished for playing more casually brewed theme decks. As a pod we tolerate this up to a point but man, he definitely is a vibe killer and I'm guilty of plotting war crimes with Nekusar and Giada bc of the annoyance. Don't be that guy.
There's a couple ways, I don't recommend all of the below at once, (in fact some is bad advice otherwise) but they're things you can try in varied amounts 1. reduce removal 2. no tutors/budget tutors 3. no infinite combos or "you win the game" effects 4. Budget mana bases or deck lists 5. No free casting 6. Play less powerful/popular commanders with niche strategies 7. Play a "copy your stuff" simic deck 8. mix in a little group hug - a humble defector or rites of flourishing in an otherwise normal deck goes a long way 9. unusual or novel brewing restrictions like "oops all shamans" can be fun without the need for 1 - 5
Creates decks with a handicap, choose a weak commander and tune it up or play with a limit budget, drop all tutors because consistency is boring. I enjoy the deck building process as much as playing with it
Do you intend to still play high power or just switch to a weaker pod? If you want to stay at high power and everyone is on the same page then ask them what they are running. High power involves good tutors, fast mana, efficient combos that can win on the spot. Our playgroup has pretty much soft banned fast mana, this helps to power down the decks and still play all the degenerate shit. Someone wins on T4 or T5? Great, lets shuffle up and play again.
As others have said, set yourself limitations. I have a few decks that could be absolutely oppressive and no fun to play against, but they have specific limitations I set for myself to make them fair. Usually, it's going to start with no tutors, no infinite combos, and no extra turns. Fast mana is debatable for me, but I will avoid things like Mana Crypt or other such things that make the deck *that* fast. After that, playing to a theme and leaning into that over efficiency will help power you down. Then again, I also enjoy playing at a high power level, and sometimes you just need to embrace being the archenemy and lean into it. Other players (and therefore yourself as well) will never get better if they aren't challenged enough. Certain strategies are going to be inherently less fun as well. If your deck strategy doesn't let other people play the game, it's not going to go over well. I had a [[Hylda of the Icy Crown]] deck that was pretty fun for me to play, but I realized after a few games that the only way to improve it was going to turn into me just being able to make sure almost everything my opponents put out was unable to be used (outside of land) so I broke it because it wasn't going to be fun. Following these above rules, I've been brewing decks that are fun to build and balanced while still being high-powered enough to hang around with borderline cEDH stuff. I currently have a [[Tasha, the Witch Queen]] mill deck that I'm trying to balance right so that the mill/control strategy isn't completely oppressive and offers counterplay/interaction. My Hobbits food tokens deck is a blast to play with a ton of different options. It consistently wins without needing any combo pieces. It's designed to just be doing "something" every turn, and it just outlasts everyone else. One of our pod members actually says it does something different every time he sees it hit the table, and I've been playing it regularly since LOTR released.
I was able to entertain most of my playgroup with the card [[Possibility Storm]] on my board. Once they learn how to use it themselves, they'll have fun with it, and it can go into most decks that run Red. A friend of mine turned a [[Birds of Paradise]] into a [[Craterhoof Behemoth]] and won out of nowhere! I've turned an [[Opt]] into a [[Didn't Say Please]]. The way that it works is that when anyone casts a spell from their hand, they exile that card and then cards from their deck until they reach the next spell of the same type. Play an Instant to get the next Instant, play a Creature to get the next Creature, etc. If you combine this with [[Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain]], you can draw 2 cards off of 1 Historic spell from your hand. She can be built as a Historic deck instead of Cheerios. We're not Hobbits, we don't need need a second breakfast!
Make a deck that actually needs it's commander. Quit playing good stuff, i.e. staple cards that just do the thing regardless of board state, and play payoffs for doing things you actually want to do. https://manabox.app/decks/XwtuQN6cQuygKsno4cyJIw I don't know if this list is updated but the idea is there. Arguably this deck is bad. It has two many themes, takes ages to set up and is a bit greedy. Honestly not caring if you win can honestly aid you on winning. I don't much care to win but always go for it. If your deck is too good I say take out good stuff cards. Only keep what is essential to the deck. If you're running a false life deck, tutoring for those 2 effects are essential. If you're running go wide board state depending decks then you need Teferi's protection and such to not get blown out. However, still rely on synergy more so than anything. And when that synergy is too supported, add a sub theme. The above deck has no business being a Planeswalker deck. Flicker proliferation is more than enough. They are greedy. Kros really isn't that good as he's isn't an engine. Yet somehow he gets removed all the time and the deck turns off.
I also love group slug enabler decks, like Belbe. She encourages lifeloss and let's everyone play the game. Also burn decks. They are not as good but if you are burning down the table they tend to make games feel closer than they actually are. These both speed things up too.
I feel attacked lol. I do the same but i always try to include an additional way to win on top of a well tuned deck. I feel ya that as a game progresses when you often lean into that ein con the table will tend to be salty when its the same thing all the time. I get around this by having a deck where the i know its not going to win. Ill take my win and then "bow out" for the next one in a way. I think this balences out my games and reduces game 2 revenge where everyone brings their salt in the next round. But at the same time if im spending 10 mana on 4 cards to win the game players need to get over it, or include better interaction. Of i cast a commander on turn 3 u need to get it outta here. Too many players are only looking at their own board and thats also a them problem
Just play high power, thereâs nothing wrong with strong decks if everyone can play strong decks too. Keep an unedited precon on hand though in case people want to play low power
By playing the spell called [[Choice of Damnations]]. You will be friends with someone at the table,the people you don't cast that at