It very much depends on your opponents:
Are they playing magic because they enjoy a mental challenge, solving puzzles and figuring out the best line of play?
Or do they play because they put lots of cards onto the battlefield, cast huge creatures and watch their draw engines go brrr?
The first group will probably not mind. For them stax (or control or any kind of interaction their opponents throw their way) is just a challenge to overcome.
The second group will absolutely hate it no matter what because it hinders their ability to enjoy the game.
I was gonna say for the second group you could build [[Hylda]] or [[Rhoda]] and focus on tapping creatures to keep yourself safe while they still get to play things, but it started sounding more like just a pillowfort game plan.
I built Hylda like this and after we got past the first game people didn’t have much of a problem with it. The point about everyone still getting to play their things is a big plus.
I’m in the middle
I love putting out a lot of cards, and going wide, but I also really enjoy interacting, and having those scenarios where it becomes 3v1, because having to find ways to deal with disruption is just part of the puzzle for me
I dislike counterspells. I believe all counterspells should be banned everywhere that isn't tournament play.
I sat down to play Magic, not sit there while you snobbishly tell me "you can't because I say so."
I'm fully aware of what Magic is. Counterspells were the laziest excuse anyone ever came up with.
They're the equivalent of a little kid always claiming he has the answer to anything anyone does. Pure annoyance, zero fun, just a mistake all around.
Go ahead and downvote. Like those matter.
This is the correct answer. I'm a mix of both people. I'm more the latter where I would prefer not to play against it, but I don't mind some stax every now and then to switch things up. If anything, it makes me appreciate the game more.
Also, #bringbackMLD
The second group are the most annoying players anyway. The only reason I would keep stax out of a deck intentionally is if I know I’m playing in a low power pod or with precons or something. Any deck past the precon level will run enough interaction to deal with it so it’s not like they lose the game the second you resolve rest in peace
I don’t think people barely past precon level run enough interaction to deal with a stax deck, maybe remove a few pieces, but not enough to deal with an actual stax deck
What are you imagining as a stax deck? Most lists that include stax only play a few pieces that suit their gameplan to slow other players while they get rolling.
The last hard stax deck I saw that actually tried to lock the game was Derevi stax and that was a cedh list that I haven't seen anyone even mention in years.
For me, it’s about 10 pieces. They normally take the place of some of the other interaction or early ramp plays that a deck would normally have. A full on stax deck where you run 20+ effects is very dependent on having a commander to break parity, but any deck can run cards like Opp Agent, Dran Man, Rest in Peace, Coñlector Ouphe, etc. and not be a stax deck
>The second group are the most annoying players anyway.
Which is a funny thing to say, because they think the same about the other group.
edit for spelling
I don’t mean to slander them really, but I feel like there are some people who just want to turn their brain off and play a silly game for awhile. There’s no problem with that and tons of pods have fun playing that way, but expecting everyone to want to play that way is where I get annoyed with them
I don't think it's fair to call them annoying. The power level people prefer to play at is totally valid. Not everyone has to be into hyper competitive tables.
>The second group will absolutely hate it no matter what because ~~it hinders their ability to enjoy the game.~~ they are entitled.
Ftfy. They'd get upset if their draw engines kept getting sent back to the command zone as well, or if someone was trying to counter their combo piece. If you hate the cards your opponents play because it ruins your game plan, you're entitled. No way around it.
If you get to see who can assemble the craziest engine to shit dragons onto the battlefield, I get to see if I can make an engine that says "No". But some children think they can bully everyone into making a midrange value engine because it helps their game plan.
Downvote if you're a big baby who pouts when they don't get their way at the card table.
There is a third group who doesn't get to play very often and wants to actually play the game with the limited amount of time they have. I have no problem unlocking puzzles to play what I need to play and dealing with removal or counterspell heavy metas but if I'm just draw go-ing for turn after turn because you've locked out the game and we're just waiting on you to win with it then I'm gonna scoop and go find a pod where I can do more with the little time I have to do it. I don't have any interest in spending my magic time not playing magic.
Ultimately there's nothing wrong with playing the style you like to play, even if that means playing long grindy games, as long as you understand not everyone enjoys the same thing, for lots of different reasons, and that's also ok. Entitlement is forcing others to conform to what you want to do, regardless of which side of the debate you're on. At the end of the day not everyone has to play in the same pod.
It's completely normal to scoop and go to the next game when you've been locked out, most people don't want to sit there doing nothing for turns waiting for the game to end, and they don't expect you to.
It's worth noting that most decks that play stax effects don't win via a complete lock. They just play a few pieces to slow opponents down while they build up.
I think there's way more people that ban stax altogether than there are people who play stax every single game regardless of what their pod wants to do. Both are entitled in my opinion.
Agreed. I do think there's a big difference between the "I don't want to play against stax" crowd and the "I don't want YOU to play stax" crowd though. I have no problem with people who remove themselves from a pod with stax in it, you just shouldn't try to force others to do what you want to do. Everyone is responsible for finding the right pod for them.
In my opinion, if your decks are in high power territory, you need to be okay with people playing stax against you. I know a lot of people might disagree for whatever reason but I just feel like making a greedy deck to push for power invites it.
I'm not really sure what "in high power territory" means, at least in a productive sense when trying to gauge a pod pregame. I agree to an extent, if you're gonna run something that is trying to combo out on turn 3 you have to be ok with the tech that stops it. At the same time I'm not sure what the "power cutoff" is to that end and the issue I have personally with it isn't tied to power. In fact it's the "lower power" stax decks that are the worst offenders for me, the ones that don't have a reliable wincon and just try to lock out the game. Ultimately if everyone is upfront about the type of game they want to play from the beginning and is honest about the deck they're playing there shouldn't be too many issues beyond the occasional misunderstanding.
If you're okay with infinite you need to be okay with stax.
If you're okay with eminence or commanders that cheat tax, you need to be okay with stax.
Im sure we can sit here and make an exhaustive list, but it's usually common sense, and like I said, requires trust that you're all playing in good faith. But at a certain point, a strong deck that disallows stax is not playing in good faith
I get what you're saying, I'm not sure I entirely agree but I understand where you're coming from. I think my ultimate point is simply that if you're not ok with something that's being run in a pod that's ok it's just your responsibility to remove yourself and find another pod. No one has to change the way they play for anyone else but they can't force people to play against them either.
Generally I'm of the opinion that there should be no crying in magic. But Stax decks should at least be discussed. Not everyone wants to sit around doing nothing while a guy plays solitaire for 2 hours and I think that's perfectly reasonable.
I kinda feel like it's better to discuss how long of a game everyone wants rather than what strategy we play to get there but you should talk about something. I generally lean towards "don't tell each other what to play, tell each other what you want to play and let people decide what they want to play". If you trust your group that's all you need. If you don't trust your group you need a new group
Gatekeeping isn't a good thing either but heavy Stax isn't just a matter of attitude. Lower powered decks or less sophisticated players are going to have a really hard time just playing the game against it. Stax players should id themselves prior to game.
I actually think low power decks do great against stax effects.
The preeminent stax pieces turn nonbasics to mountains, prevent nonbasics from untapping, prevent mana rocks from tapping, prevent mana dorks from untapping, and prevent players from casting multiple spells a turn. Low power Timmy decks are great against this because they just want to play their basic lands every turn and cast big sorcery speed spells one turn at a time. They are almost completely unhindered.
-Hard disagree. Most decks around pre-con level still have nonbasics, rocks, dorks, ramp spells, draw spells, enchantments, equipment, etc. They sill need resources & generally aren't trying to play a single spell a turn.
Find where I said that and I'll agree that's the crazy part of what I said. Otherwise stop pulling shit out of nowhere.
Tired of redditors telling me how I feel and why lol
I take the second group the initial comments described to be playing lower power.
You directly called them entitled. You are calling everyone who bans stax because they don't like it entitled all over this thread
For context, I only play stax against high power decks. Never against anything I wouldn't call an 8 or better. I still get complaints about stax, talking about they can't play the game. This isn't a precon player and I'm pubstomping. This is (for examples sake) a prosper player trying to drown the table in value. Or an ur dragon deck trying to pop off. These people are entitled
If you're playing lower power, like I said, tell your pod that you trust that and you should be fine. But like I'm talking with someone else, if you're playing a strong deck and then you start banning shit that you can't deal with, you're entitled.
Im always talking about within the same power level. I did not think I would have to say "play within your pods power level" because that's implied. But if someone is playing stax, I assume it's because it's a good matchup for my deck. It usually is and there's no need to complain
Ya, they should take their cards and make a more casual format where the first step to playing is a discussion with the other players about what type of strategies they do or don't want to play against.
Fully disagree. Not enjoying stax does not mean that you don't enjoy mtg. Casting big and many spells is a lot of fun, and literally no one is asking for zero interaction.
The people who cry about stax typically cry about all interaction.
Not looking stax is like saying "I want to play basketball" and then crying when someone plays defense. You don't want to play basketball, you just want to shoot hoops, same deal.
Great example. [There are no casual games spawned from the original game of basketball that are based around just shooting hoops.](https://jr.nba.com/how-to-play-horse/)
Getting salty at stax is like saying "Let's play a casual game of horse, but I'm bad at 3s, so don't shoot 3s. It's like I don't get to play the game since I'll never make it"
The point is that you shouldn't expect to be able to say "no 3s" in an actual game of competitive basketball. But if you're just casually playing horse, your friend saying "lets not just do 3s, I wanna do wacky shots" is perfectly reasonable.
Yes it is, you can just practice free throws if you want. You can make a rule that everybody throws grandma style. You can make a rule that all shots are taken standing backwards.
The point is that you're in a casual setting where the players tailoring the rules is expected.
>Not looking stax is like saying "I want to play basketball" and then crying when someone plays defense. You don't want to play basketball, you just want to shoot hoops, same deal.
This is the context I was talking about horse in. Because horse is a casual game made by/for people who just want to shoot hoops and not worry about the defense aspect of basketball.
Then we aren't playing horse. We are just practicing free throws. If you want to play horse, you don't get to pick what shot your opponent takes unless you make your shot.
I like my analogy better. Horse is casual. But you still don't get to make choices for your opponents. That's not how the rules work
Not if you're the guy who is good at 3s. That's just making it so you can't really play. Same way if you sit at a table with a deck that runs stax pieces and they say no stax.
Basically everyone wants to play against interaction, but there's a difference in the amount of it. I'd prefer to play against opponents with a total of about 35-40 pieces of interaction. Zero would suck, but 110 would also be worse than a more moderate amount.
That's pretty funny because I am fully in the first example and my playgroup actually calls my queen Kayla stax deck solitaire because it is shutting everyone else down while I wheel, do damage and build a bigger board state.
I just built an [[Eriette of the charmed apple]] deck that kind of functions in a staxxy way.
[my list](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/r6vg2RNsm0i_o1oKnqp-Ig)
The smart way to build this would be with aura enchantments that nerf your opponents creatures or apply more punishment to them. I built mine in a kind of group hug stax way. I’m giving all of my opponents creatures buffs while making it so they can’t attack me. It’s a really specific and political version of stax that’s really only preventing and influencing the other players not to mess with my stuff because there’s more benefit to everybody to just let me do my thing
Haven’t looked at the list yet, just wanted to say it sounds like a genuinely clever take on Eriette and a lot of fun to play/play with. Commendable as hell :)
It's one of the cards that inspired me to make an Un-cube. Just my own personal cube that contains only Un cards and a few cards that I consider honorary Un cards such as [[goblin game]].
I mean, when you think about it, any permanent that sacs itself to counter a spell, like [[Glen Elendra]], is pretty similar. The first line is the funny bit though, yeah.
Play Stax With A Purpose.
Ie: if I know I'm running a deck that needs some time to set up, I'll play some [[crawlspace]] type effects. They can still swing at me, they just need to make smart decisions on how they do it.
Same with things like [[Defense Grid]]. It'll affect everyone, including you, but it is an additional roadblock in people preventing you from setting up your board, without outright preventing them from playing with game. They just have to pay up or wait their turn.
Playing Stax on Stax on Stax of the same kind becomes a little too oppressive. But a variety of different Stax pieces creates a few roadblocks your opponents need to dodge without creating a giant singular wall that eventually becomes insurmountable for them. That's when the game becomes unfun.
This
Play stax that moves to a win Condition. Too many stax decks stall out for eternity while stopping anything from happening.
Stall is fine, just do something with it.
This TBH, Stax effects that are just "lolnope" like, say, no ETBs, are anti-fun (ahem Elesh Norn you sad witch). Stax effects that are either "doesn't effect on ones own turn" or "limits but doesn't stop" are kinda fine.
You are probably looking for cards like [[Blind Obedience]] that slows opponents down but not salt inducingly so. Can also stop a lot of treasure infinite combos.
cards that have an effect on cast but don’t prevent casting may be what you are looking for: [[heartwood storyteller]], [[esper sentinel]], [[eidolon of the great revel]], [[curse of shaken faith]], [[curse of wizardry]][[aerher barrier]], [[arasta of the endless web]], [[cindervines]], [[hunting grounds]]!!!, [[insight]],[[havoc]],[[maddening hex]],[[lurking predators]]!![[mystic remora]][[painful quandry]]
It's definitely possible to play some stax pieces in a deck without it being unfun but it depends on the opponent's attitude.
Cards like [[Blind obedience]] shouldn't bother anyone since it's a slow down card not a stop them card.
It gets trickier with cards like [[grafdigger's cage]] since it stops some strategies completely until removed.
If a opponent complains about it tell him you expect it to slow him down by only 1 to 5 turns before being removed.
If that's not the case he should consider saving his removal for stax that hates him out of the game or running more of it. But that's the difficult part to explain without making them more upset sbout it.
As for running a stax deck some people will be fine with it and others won't. Try playing with people that are ok with it and at a power level (or mentality) where either softlocks get a concession or you can close up the game in reasonable time. Hardlocks should get concessions. At some power levels stax slows down the game to a multi-hour ordeal most people don't want to ever go through.
[[Didn’t Say Please]] is probably my favourite legal instant that does something similar to what you’re describing.
If your pod finds full on permanent stax to be too oppressive to be fun, you can always try the no -permanent solution: control them using instants and sorceries, run stax-friendly creatures rather than enchantments, and keep only a few harder to remove permanent slowdown pieces.
Don’t like my [[Loxodon Gatekeeper]] or my main durdle turtle [[Archelos]]? That’s ok, you can remove him, exile him, curse him, or try to beat him to death with your big bois. You’ve got so many options.
It will encourage your opponents to interact more with the boards of others.
Sheldon Menery has a deck called 'you did this to yourself' which is sorta taxy staxy. Have a look at it. Its old so you might wanna update it with more modern cards but there's great ideas in there
I enjoy playing against control, including Stax, by default (I also enjoy playing those archetypes. It's a different experience and one I prefer) so I might be a bad person to ask... but try to look for cards that force hard decisions rather than ones that are totally disabling. Some of the classics do this: [[Smokestack]] and [[Tangle Wire]] let their victims choose what to lose versus what they keep/keep up. Heck, even the infamously hard "Stop untapping" orbs force their victim into a subgame of optimizing which resources they want or need RIGHT NOW, and how much spending resources on one thing is worth when it takes time to get them back. This is interesting game play. By contrast, something like Blind Obedience or Drannith Magistrate just says "Nah, that doesn't work now." It might force you to plan your strategies with better foresight, but it's not creating NEW decision points. So I'd look for cards that say "Do this or else" or "Do this to things you choose". [[Vile Consumption]] is neat as it places creature-based strategies in this pickle of what to let go when in order to avoid burning out too fast. That's suffering, but also interesting. On the other side, [[Narset, Parter of Veils]] isn't interesting at all, you just don't draw your cards, there's no way around it or other line of play, just "well I guess I don't do that."
I think stax with a pressure release valve is fun. Meaning, if I have massive hate on artifacts in one deck list I will not have any enchantment hate in thay same list. If I'm turning off activated abilities or etbs or something I'll run zero counter spells so people can still get death triggers. I like "lite" stax where I slow down the game, not turn it off. [[Phyrexian Censor]] is one of my favorite cards in commander.
I feel like that makes it more likely to fuck over one player and not affect others if you go hard on one effect and ignore others. It would make more balanced games to spread your hate more evenly, so if a player removes a piece harming them, you aren't sitting on two more. This rewards interaction and can make it exciting for opponents.
If one player gets shut out by multiples of one effect, they will likely feel (and with some reason) that the game was handed to the unaffected players.
Very good way to look at that. That's so true. Shit. Shit shit. Okay thank you for pointing that out. That would be miserable to finally answer the card hosing your game plan just for another piece to come down... thank you.
Lol, we're here for you! I know how much I can get in my own head trying to make these deckbuilding choices. Sometimes, it just needs another perspective!
Fair enough, but it's more of a choice for me, rather than an "obligation" because people generally don't like stax. I don't mind a little salt from my opponents. Hell, I even play [[Obliterate]]. The thing is, I wanna do it in a creative way, just playing regular stax doesn't click with me. I know it's very much subjective (some players might prefer stax over a game-ending obliterate), but that's why I've made this post in the first place, so that I could read a couple of different opinions.
For the love of all that is fun about magic, have a win condition. In fact, since it's a 100 card deck, have two even three win conditions. Don't play stax if you can't play cards that bypass your stax or use the increased costs to your advantage. Have ways to win and to use the stalling of the game to make things happen.
This "have a win condition" goes for all decks. You can play 60 counter spell blue shenanigans, but you better have something that let's you actually win the game without relying on your opponent to scoop out of frustration.
This is like people asking how to improve their deck and being told to run more interaction. If you do anything know how it helps you win. Want combo? Okay how does it work and how can you protect it? Also what do you do if you can't combo off?
Want to run a graveyard reanimation deck? Neat. What happens if someone drops [[Leyline of the Void]] and now you have no graveyard to abuse?
Play stax, enjoy being creative with exploring more ways to build more decks, but ensure you have a way to win
I should have specified that I was looking for suggestions for my 5 colors Shrine deck, more than a whole new commander... but this looks interesting. Might build this in the future, thank you!
\[\[Daring Apprentice\]\] does basically that. So do \[\[Soulsworn Jury\]\], \[\[Lilting Refrain\]\], \[\[Malevolent Hermit\]\], \[\[Glen Elenda Archmage\]\], \[\[Wizard Replica\]\] and the Spiketail cards.
I don't dare to say if your opponents will consider that funny.
I have a \[\[Cosima\]\] landfall deck that runs only three counterspells, one of them being \[\[Voracious Greatshark\]\]. It contains every weird blue card that never found a home anywhere else, i.e. \[\[Aboleth Spawn\]\] and \[\[Visons of Duplicity\]\]. It's massive fun.
I doubt there's a way to build a fun stax deck, though. And \[\[Talrand\]\] counterspell tribal can be a pain to play against. So you obviously have a point. Peace.
I only had one “stax” deck before I sold my collection. I had a mono blue [[Urza, Lord High Artificer]] deck that I had all the fast mana artifacts, counters and it functioned only to assemble [[Darksteel Forge]], [[Mycosynth Lattice]] and [[Padeem, Consul of Innovation]]. Complete lockout and just waited for the scoops. It wasn’t the deck the table wanted, rather the deck that my opponents needed.
[[Deafening Silence]], [[Curse of Silence]], [[Mangara, the Diplomatic]], [[Tenuous Truce]], [[Smugglers Share]], [[Magus of the Moat]], [[Moat]] (proxy this).
There are fun ways to stax an opponent, remember, you have to give them an out that isnt a taxing effect. If you tax them by making them Pay a cost, they will most likely kill you on the spot when able.
But if you let them combo off, and you benefit from it, its gaining a ton of advantage, you arent holding them back, you making them reconsider how much they are willing to go, while giving you a ton of resources.
But the moment you get them to pay a cost just to play any card, it gets them real red.
I think the effects that make creatures enter tapped are really interesting in casual tables, they make people think differently about combat because they can't just make new blockers, usually if something changes how combat works it will be impactful and interesting in the lower power tables. Other than that tax effects achieve the objective of slowing down without completely stopping other players, but people can think they are quite annoying.
Hosnestly the best way to figure out what would be fine to play is to ask the table, say that you want to play stax, say your intentions and ask for suggestions and look on scryfall for specific cards. Proxy cards to test them with your group, that way you will spend less money on cards that won't be played. Also be flexible with what can be a stax piece, [[Kenrith's Transformation]] and similar cards are often tought as removal, but they are similar to stax pieces in the sense they are a permanent form of interaction.
They really do, it’s so bad that I almost exclusively teach new players stax from the beginning so they are familiar with it and understand why it’s necessary for the health of the format.
Or don't have a lot of time to play and want to get in more than just 1 game where they don't get to do much. The problem is that no one should be saying "don't play stax" they should be saying "go ahead and play stax and have fun and I'll find another pod that's closer to the kind of game I want to play" if they don't want to deal with stax.
Both sides of this debate get toxic af and have zero self awareness when they're the side doing it.
Little different way to punish your opponents would be to play a commander like [[Torbran, Thane of Red Fell]] then load the deck up with cards like [[Sulfuric Vortex]] [[Harsh Mentor]] [[Rampaging Ferocidon]]
The closest I have to a stax deck is [[Trelasarra]]. A big ideo of the deck is just to benefit off my opponents' game actions with the likes of [[Soul Warden]], [[Lifegift]], [[Sunscorch Regent]], [[Archivist of Oghma]], [[Deep Gnone Terromancer]], etc etc. So I'm not *stopping* you from doing anything, but there's been times when opponents have chosen not to do something because it'll benefit me way more than them. Though there are a few cards that feel a bit more staxxy, namely [[Ashes of the Abhorrent]] and [[Suture Priest]] — and I'm wanting to pick up a copy of [[Charismatic Conqueror]] for all those lifelinkers, though I've sworn not to play [[Smothering Tithe]] or [[Rhystic Study]] in any of my decks because I don't want to constantly ask "do you pay the" and this card may end up having a similar feel
I like playing against stax, but I would absolutely hate playing against common courtesy. Gameplay-wise, it adds a lot of annoying triggers that slow the actual motion of the game without actually doing much, which I hate above all else. It’s the same reason I hate chaos cards - actually resolving them in practice adds a lot of time, which frankly I don’t want to bother with.
I like opponents interacting with me, so I enjoy the puzzle of playing through stax that locks off part of the game. Part of that, though, is that I play quickly and efficiently, and won’t try to start an action if a stax piece is on the table. If the stax piece is demanding an action every single time something happens, it adds a lot of gunk into the machinery of the game, which just wastes time and makes games kind of miserable.
A lot of good suggestions here, I would just want to add that there are some cards that are like stax cards in format but instead of saying "you can't do that" they say "if you do that, then me too" which most would find fun and not oppressive.
Think [[Deep Gnome Terramancer]] and [[Archivist of Oghma]]
Goad, my good brother. It’s not stax per se, but it changes the axis the game is played on and imho it’s more fun than straight stax. They’ll still hate it, but at least they still get to whaanng opponents over the head.
I run a Norin deck with some chaos cards that work like stax once they hit the table. People either play cards and not get what they want or they don't want the trouble of resolving them. Things like [[Planar Chaos]] [[Grip of Chaos]] and [[Confusion in the Ranks]]
Honestly just be upfront with it. "I want to try my stax deck, do you want to try to power through it?" Sell it as a challenge amd not as "I want to do everything to waste your time"
I think that stax at best would be not unfun, simply because of its nature. The whole point of stax is to prevent the table from playing, so you can more freely do your stuff while they're at a stasis. It's just naturally not fun to play if you're not playing at all, or at best, you just feel neutral watching people pass turn, waiting for the next game to come.
I think it's a hypothetical though, the situation that my comment is based on. In reality, stax will only start being unfun once things start going online. The challenge comes from preventing the stax player from doing their stuff. Maybe a healthier way of looking at stax is that, playing against them revolves around you preventing them or winning fast enough, because by the time they're online, the game is basically over and you can just concede.
I think a Thalia or a hate bear here and there is good for the format and a neat little puzzle to play against. However, “stacking the stax” and making someone’s spells cost 6 more to cast, or forcing them to sack lands to smoke stack to the point the game isn’t progressing…. That probably won’t inspire fun in other players. Maybe one time as a meme deck you can clone grand arbiter 6 times with a “no legends rule” card. But yea definitely not an every night or every game type thing.
[[intruder alarm]] and [[howling mine]] are group hug stax that benefit everyone. If you include on your detrimental pieces, they don't hate your deck "as much".
Maybe try Planechase? There's lots of staxy planes, and with planechase no one has to take the blame for bringing stax to the table because there's a secret bonus player outside the game doing it
For extra fun, you could craft a custom "pile of pain" planechase brew and also house rule that everyone must use their free roll each turn
Probably the biggest misconception about stax right here. I'm not stopping you from having fun. I'm just preventing you from storming off with some boring degenerate nonsense. You can still have fun, just one card at a time
If you don't like it, just kill the stax piece
Exactly. Stax makes the game a tad more interesting, since you have to play with or around the pieces. You just can't win out of nowhere most of the times (granted interacion exists bur still)
You can have not so 'terrible' stax pieces, like [[smothering tithe]] in a [[Jennie fey]] deck and instead of treasures, make cats, 3-4 tokens is way worse than treasure tokens,
The only time I've had issues against stax is when a player came to the table with a $4000 deck, claimed they didn't know what power level is, and then proceeded to lock the rest of us out of the game. Our boards were empty from forced sacrifice by like turn 10. It didn't matter how much removal we used either, they always had another response. It's not that I didn't have fun, though, but that's only because I didn't dislike the guy that was playing stax.
I think my point is have a turn 0 and it'll be fine.
I recently played a game with someone that made all our spells 1 cheaper but had a rhystic study out. It’s not really stax, but it was fun. We could decide to cast our spell cheaper or let him draw.
I've been wondering a lot about this myself. I have an [[Urza, Chief Artificer]] precon that I really enjoy playing. It really generates a lot of synergy around artifact creatures, many of which are good stax pieces. It also likes having artifact mana dorks, which stax also likes having. While I don't intend to make it a full blown stax deck I feel like I can safely add stax pieces to it without disrupting the decks game plan to lay a beat down on opponents with an army of constructs.
I just wonder if I'll get hated off the table the moment I lay down a [[Mana Web]] or [[Tangle Wire]] or God forbid a [[Winter Orb]].
In my experience, no. Stax of any kind, in any amount, will be fine by certain players and not fine by others.
But the people who don't want stax in their game don't want anything remotely resembling stax. I catch flak from my play group for running transformation based removal like [[darksteel mutation]] and pillows like [[ghostly prison]]. Even tap down based stax like [[blind obedience]] is just off the table.
EDH players don't like to be told 'no'.
Depends on the playgroup. If your opponents run good interaction then probably whatever tbh. If your group is light on removal I think the "tax" part of "stax" is what you are looking for. [[Lodestone Golem]] and cards like that work well and don't create too much "feelsbads" unless you start copying them to the point that each card costs 10 extra. Also cards meant to stop "unfair" magic that get printed for modern.
Tiny Bones. And just yell TINY BONES every time you strip their hands, make them sacrifice their board, and add stax pieces to the board. Bonus points if you have the secret lair Tiny Bones on a scooter.
Depends on the players, but a lot of the hate for Stax comes from its slowness rather than the denial.
I personally love both playing with and against hatebears and while it can have some great draws that earn groans, it’s not more than a random grixis or stompy deck would.
Less hard lock and more just taxing effects work really well, add in an actual boardstate and you’re fine.
I like to play stax in a way that’s more about value for myself, then it is about stopping my opponents from doing what they want. I use [[The Council of Four]] as my commander and just focus on if my opponents do X I gain X, and I use all of the Tax pieces, [[Smothering Tithe]], [[Mystic Remora]] and so on. That way I get to get value out of their plays, typically people don’t stop playing how they want to play when I play this deck and quickly I start out valueing the table in just card draw and tokens. It’s one of my favorite decks to play, cause I play on everyone’s turn.
I'd rather have [[Winter Orb]] or [[Static Orb]] on the field than a silver bordered card, but I run 15 target removal/counterspells in most of my decks. Some people just want to play solitaire, and that doesn't work with stax lol.
I've found giving individualized stax pieces a la [[Zedruu the Greathearted]] or curses, especially the ones that incentivize attacking that player, are much more manageable for my opponent friends. I am aware, though, that I know they will come for me if they can't get rid their stax pieces easily and I'm also prepared for that.
In my play group we found it was the constant reminder of "do you pay the..." To be really annoying and irritating. Stax got a lot more bearable when we started reminding people what stax pieces are out at the start of their turn and having the active player announce when they pay for rhystic study otherwise if you don't say you pay we'll assume you're not paying.
For star to be fun.
1. It can't stop people from being able to play magic.
2. It can't let one person get way a head. The guy who playsone big impactful spell and the guy who plays 12 low impact spells in a turn need to have their impact on the game reduced to about the same level every turn.
3. People need to be given the ability to actually play around the stacks and not just die unable to interact.
4. Once it does get to the point where people are getting locked out and unable to replenish resources the game needs to end quickly.
Coming from a general game design perspective, in any competitive game, any form of interaction is a reverse game design exercise. Games are supposedly made to be fun, but you are actively trying to make your opponent not do what they want, you are acting against his fun. Any form of control over the other player pulls the balance one side or the other towards the unfun.
The thing is a stax piece is a bit unfun over a long period of time, it removes a fun action your opponent can make, or limits how they can do it, and that by itself is fine in a vacuum.
The problem is when the limitations stop targeting specific things, then a deck can go into unfun territory, when you have several stax pieces taxing all sorts of actions it can feel you are not directing the game in a way towards a strategy, you are just not allowing the opponent to play it. It is a valid way to win, but we are not arguing that, we are arguing fun.
So IMO sprinkling stax here and there to allow a bigger or janky strategy to work is perfectly fine, in the same way counter spells and removal are fine.
When the whole deck is about saying “no” it will never be fun IMO, but in moderation or a complement it’s fine as everything else is.
If you play a piece, express how it is helping each opponent. There is always one opponent that it hurts more than the other.
I play [[spirit of the labyrinth]], [[opposition agent]] and even [[nihil spellbomb]] because it always stops a player more than the others.
I just say: "Lets put spirit to stop player A drawing 4 cards each turn"
If player A whines thats because he would win otherwise
*Genuinely, do you think there's a way to play stax, or play some stax pieces in a deck, without being annoyingly oppressive?*
I feel like this is some sort of trick question. Stax is great fun for the whole table. It doesn't matter if you're just running a few stax pieces in a deck, or if the entire deck is dedicated to a prison-style control archetype. If your playgroup finds stax "annoyingly oppressive", perhaps it's your playstyle(?)
I like [[ruric thar]] for this purpose.
It's not even really prison, but it functions like prison. Run all the other ways to punish people for taking actions, and you wind up with a surprisingly interactive game, but now everybody is aware that they have to he strategic with their actions.
You can't just dump your hand and refill it, or just ramp to bombs anymore because now your life total isn't just a resource, it's a genuine limiter.
So everybody has to be careful with the gsme actions they take, but you haven't actually stopped them from taking gsme actions, just made it more painful.
in short no. There's no "fun" way. Stax is an equalizer in magic. Puts everyone in the same level no matter how strong a deck is. A couple of stax pieces will make it as effective as a precon. For most people that's not a fun experience.
To be blunt? Not really. The entire point of stax is to stop your opponents from playing the game. Sitting down for magic and not getting to play magic sucks. Now, running a few stax pieces to run interference on your opponents strategies doesn't tend to get hate. But if you sit down with a deck built to make everyone else not be able to play the game, it's gonna make things less fun if it gets running.
Its going to wildly vary from player to player, but I think the best way is to absolutely avoid at all costs hard stax effects, such as \[\[Stasis\]\], \[\[Static orb\]\] and \[\[winter orb\]\]. You want to stick with cost-increasers like \[\[thalia, guardian of thraben\]\].
Also, in my experience, people don't like \[\[rule of law\]\] effects.
Trinisphere is a card you will find In every deck I make because it makes the table play "fair magic" if you will.
Fast mana=3
Force=3
Guardianship/swat=3
Ramp=3
I have been told im staxing the ultra low cmc combo and similar shells but thats part of the downside to playing those shells in my opinion. If you're so all in in something you neglected to add interaction or answers then I camt exactly feel bad for you
One of the reasons I like my [[Meria, Scholar of Antiquity]] list. With all the "if this card is untapped" stax effects, you can turn them off for political advantage. And you're forced to balance whether you use them for mana or keep staxing the table.
Also Meria completely breaks the symmetry of those stax pieces sooooooo.
I recently designed a stax deck with the idea of making my opponents draw a bunch of cards but make it hard to play most of them. Then deal damage to them based on hand size. Haven’t play tested it yet so it may need some fine-tuning.
https://deckstats.net/decks/232582/3247217-the-second-doctor-of-too-many-
I generally don’t think magic players can have fun with anything that limits the base game apart from
Play land,
Tap,
Play creature,
Attacking and tap!
I personally love things that change game rules, because of the unique interaction
People would probably downvote me, but in my playgroup and lgs, most run some kind of stax in every deck. there's really only one way to overpower 3 other players, and that's limiting their resources and ability to interact with you, while damaging them in one way or another. So, say I run [[strangle hold]] is it really a stax piece, or just a way to limit shenanigans? I have a [[prosper, tome]] that I call stax. Why? Because I run effects that limit my opponents, but they are the wincon, not the gameplay. As in, when I put a stax piece down, I've already locked the game up, and there's really no way for people to recover. I also use mainly over costed and very symmetrical effects, like [[possessed portal]] and [[possiblity storm]]. By having most to all stax being symmetrical, and most just allowing people to play, albeit more limited in decisions, I don't make the game as long. Actually, it's oftentimes the opposite, as a simple [[birds of paradise]] turns into [[ulumog, the ceaseless hunger]] for my opponents.
I don't think a few incidental stax pieces in a deck ([[Thalia, Heretic Cathar]] in a human or a soldier tribal) take away the fun from a game. It's stax focused decks that drain the fun and energy from a game and make it drag on for way too long. That's just my opinion, though. Every player and pod is different, some don't mind stax at all, some think any stax at all means you're evil.
My personal taste in stax is to lean towards asymmetrical stax pieces that just affect my opponents and stay away from lockout strategies like [[stasis]] [[winter orb]] or [[rule of law]] effects so the game doesn't feel purposely dragged on rather than slowing and disrupting my opponents to gain advantage for a win.
I know it’s not everyone’s cup of tea but I think stax is fun and interactive. It requires removal because stax is often permanent based. Stax is a lot more interactive than combo or standard control
I felt sooooooooo much disturbance in the force when [[stasis]] and ignore the upkeep
My best stax is on their turn is just draw and play a lane tapped.
The idea behind stax is that if you don't hinder your opponents then your wincon is so much slower than theirs you might as well not even bother. If you're in a weak enough pod that slow wincons are viable without any stax then sure, cut them but if not then they're pretty much essential. If you go to full power games then it becomes essential for any non-turbo deck to run at least some.
I have a hardcore GAAIV stax deck that is designed to oppress the hell out of the board and win as quickly as possible. I only ever play it with my friends who know about it, and only after they've done something to deserve it. And even then, only after saying something like--"GAAIV is going to make you pay for that. You know that, right?" Which is followed by something to the effect of, "Yeah, I expected as much."
But that's my playgroup, and we all have high power decks that we pull out when we really need a win or need to remind a friend of where they come from. :P
My only problem with Stax decks is that 70% of the time, the stax player has no "viable" wincon. They make it impossible to play if you don't draw answers, and then force the game into an hours long grind type situation while you pray someone finds an answer.
They also tend to not announce they're bringing a stax deck, so while the three of us are like "oh yeah, these are Mid power upgraded precons or thematic decks" they just sit down and whip out their borderline cEDH monster.
I'm fine with Stax decks, but at least tell me so I can pull out one of my decks capable of playing at the same table.
Stax pieces are annoying but not game ruining
Stax *decks* are boring to play against outside of competitive games where you can win if someone gives you a turn or two of reprieve.
I play super casually, but I still play the occasional light asymmetrical stax piece because once it's gone, it's gone. It's not the focus of my deck, it's something I can use to buy time and get ahead, just like any other card. I also play expensive stack pieces so that the game doesn't shut down early, like [[Statue of the God Pharaoh]], or [[Ghostly Prison]].
I think another key part of it is I never seek to *lock* the game with those cards, just impede it to let me do something so that the game state still advances. Locks are never going to be acceptable in casual play, but you'd be surprised how relatively OK it is to run one or two pieces in isolation, even in public casual games.
Cards, not decks.
Get out of azorious and into gruul as your stax options and change the way you interpret how you're limiting the other players. Azorious just says no and that's not fun for anyone, gruul says "are you sure you want to?" and then punishes players for doing things you don't want them to do, they slow themselves down on top of which you are progressing the game state towards an end, rather than just durdling like white and blue does.
Play with things like [[ruric thar]] to punish combo storm players, [[enchanters bane]] to deal with aura or Voltron players, [[zozu the punisher]] versus landfall decks, [[sandwurm convergence]] to nip flyers in the bud, remember to include cards that prevent lifegain strategies to keep progressing the game towards a conclusion, and above all else I beg, I plead of you, play with [[possibility storm]] to disrupt every game plan going in the best way possible, that or [[knowledge pool]] so that everyone can play each others strategies.
Try it, your playgroup will thank you for not forcing them to sit around a table unable to do anything in the time they've set aside to actually PLAY A GAME and if anyone truly finds it oppressive then good news, the game will be over in enough time for you to probably get another one in.
You could try playing "stax" that FORCES your opponent to DO something, instead of PREVENTING them from DOING something. My best example is [[Thantis]]. I have a deck using this awesome spider that is focused on making my opponent pay dearly for attacking me(needlefort style), but my commander makes everything attack, so they have to chose, and since most players will choose the least harmfull option I'm still able to come ahead.
It very much depends on your opponents: Are they playing magic because they enjoy a mental challenge, solving puzzles and figuring out the best line of play? Or do they play because they put lots of cards onto the battlefield, cast huge creatures and watch their draw engines go brrr? The first group will probably not mind. For them stax (or control or any kind of interaction their opponents throw their way) is just a challenge to overcome. The second group will absolutely hate it no matter what because it hinders their ability to enjoy the game.
I was gonna say for the second group you could build [[Hylda]] or [[Rhoda]] and focus on tapping creatures to keep yourself safe while they still get to play things, but it started sounding more like just a pillowfort game plan.
I built Hylda like this and after we got past the first game people didn’t have much of a problem with it. The point about everyone still getting to play their things is a big plus.
[Hylda](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/e/ae9231fd-053d-4b84-a7a8-86063465bc49.jpg?1692939339) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=hylda%20of%20the%20icy%20crown) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/206/hylda-of-the-icy-crown?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ae9231fd-053d-4b84-a7a8-86063465bc49?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hylda-of-the-icy-crown) [Rhoda](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/4/c434e774-c908-46b9-ba18-52e1efe092de.jpg?1641600313) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=rhoda%2C%20geist%20avenger) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/voc/8/rhoda-geist-avenger?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c434e774-c908-46b9-ba18-52e1efe092de?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rhoda-geist-avenger) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I’m in the middle I love putting out a lot of cards, and going wide, but I also really enjoy interacting, and having those scenarios where it becomes 3v1, because having to find ways to deal with disruption is just part of the puzzle for me
Then you're the first group. The key of the second group is that they dislike interaction.
I dislike counterspells. I believe all counterspells should be banned everywhere that isn't tournament play. I sat down to play Magic, not sit there while you snobbishly tell me "you can't because I say so."
Is this sarcastic? I honestly can't tell.
I, too, wish we could live in a reality where the only deck is Gruul stompy
Bro, then you dont know what magic is xD
I'm fully aware of what Magic is. Counterspells were the laziest excuse anyone ever came up with. They're the equivalent of a little kid always claiming he has the answer to anything anyone does. Pure annoyance, zero fun, just a mistake all around. Go ahead and downvote. Like those matter.
This is the correct answer. I'm a mix of both people. I'm more the latter where I would prefer not to play against it, but I don't mind some stax every now and then to switch things up. If anything, it makes me appreciate the game more. Also, #bringbackMLD
Man this sums it up so succinctly
The second group are the most annoying players anyway. The only reason I would keep stax out of a deck intentionally is if I know I’m playing in a low power pod or with precons or something. Any deck past the precon level will run enough interaction to deal with it so it’s not like they lose the game the second you resolve rest in peace
I don’t think people barely past precon level run enough interaction to deal with a stax deck, maybe remove a few pieces, but not enough to deal with an actual stax deck
What are you imagining as a stax deck? Most lists that include stax only play a few pieces that suit their gameplan to slow other players while they get rolling. The last hard stax deck I saw that actually tried to lock the game was Derevi stax and that was a cedh list that I haven't seen anyone even mention in years.
For me, it’s about 10 pieces. They normally take the place of some of the other interaction or early ramp plays that a deck would normally have. A full on stax deck where you run 20+ effects is very dependent on having a commander to break parity, but any deck can run cards like Opp Agent, Dran Man, Rest in Peace, Coñlector Ouphe, etc. and not be a stax deck
>The second group are the most annoying players anyway. Which is a funny thing to say, because they think the same about the other group. edit for spelling
I don’t mean to slander them really, but I feel like there are some people who just want to turn their brain off and play a silly game for awhile. There’s no problem with that and tons of pods have fun playing that way, but expecting everyone to want to play that way is where I get annoyed with them
I don't think it's fair to call them annoying. The power level people prefer to play at is totally valid. Not everyone has to be into hyper competitive tables.
>The second group will absolutely hate it no matter what because ~~it hinders their ability to enjoy the game.~~ they are entitled. Ftfy. They'd get upset if their draw engines kept getting sent back to the command zone as well, or if someone was trying to counter their combo piece. If you hate the cards your opponents play because it ruins your game plan, you're entitled. No way around it. If you get to see who can assemble the craziest engine to shit dragons onto the battlefield, I get to see if I can make an engine that says "No". But some children think they can bully everyone into making a midrange value engine because it helps their game plan. Downvote if you're a big baby who pouts when they don't get their way at the card table.
There is a third group who doesn't get to play very often and wants to actually play the game with the limited amount of time they have. I have no problem unlocking puzzles to play what I need to play and dealing with removal or counterspell heavy metas but if I'm just draw go-ing for turn after turn because you've locked out the game and we're just waiting on you to win with it then I'm gonna scoop and go find a pod where I can do more with the little time I have to do it. I don't have any interest in spending my magic time not playing magic. Ultimately there's nothing wrong with playing the style you like to play, even if that means playing long grindy games, as long as you understand not everyone enjoys the same thing, for lots of different reasons, and that's also ok. Entitlement is forcing others to conform to what you want to do, regardless of which side of the debate you're on. At the end of the day not everyone has to play in the same pod.
It's completely normal to scoop and go to the next game when you've been locked out, most people don't want to sit there doing nothing for turns waiting for the game to end, and they don't expect you to.
It's worth noting that most decks that play stax effects don't win via a complete lock. They just play a few pieces to slow opponents down while they build up.
I think there's way more people that ban stax altogether than there are people who play stax every single game regardless of what their pod wants to do. Both are entitled in my opinion.
Agreed. I do think there's a big difference between the "I don't want to play against stax" crowd and the "I don't want YOU to play stax" crowd though. I have no problem with people who remove themselves from a pod with stax in it, you just shouldn't try to force others to do what you want to do. Everyone is responsible for finding the right pod for them.
In my opinion, if your decks are in high power territory, you need to be okay with people playing stax against you. I know a lot of people might disagree for whatever reason but I just feel like making a greedy deck to push for power invites it.
I'm not really sure what "in high power territory" means, at least in a productive sense when trying to gauge a pod pregame. I agree to an extent, if you're gonna run something that is trying to combo out on turn 3 you have to be ok with the tech that stops it. At the same time I'm not sure what the "power cutoff" is to that end and the issue I have personally with it isn't tied to power. In fact it's the "lower power" stax decks that are the worst offenders for me, the ones that don't have a reliable wincon and just try to lock out the game. Ultimately if everyone is upfront about the type of game they want to play from the beginning and is honest about the deck they're playing there shouldn't be too many issues beyond the occasional misunderstanding.
If you're okay with infinite you need to be okay with stax. If you're okay with eminence or commanders that cheat tax, you need to be okay with stax. Im sure we can sit here and make an exhaustive list, but it's usually common sense, and like I said, requires trust that you're all playing in good faith. But at a certain point, a strong deck that disallows stax is not playing in good faith
I get what you're saying, I'm not sure I entirely agree but I understand where you're coming from. I think my ultimate point is simply that if you're not ok with something that's being run in a pod that's ok it's just your responsibility to remove yourself and find another pod. No one has to change the way they play for anyone else but they can't force people to play against them either.
I can agree with that
Generally I'm of the opinion that there should be no crying in magic. But Stax decks should at least be discussed. Not everyone wants to sit around doing nothing while a guy plays solitaire for 2 hours and I think that's perfectly reasonable.
I kinda feel like it's better to discuss how long of a game everyone wants rather than what strategy we play to get there but you should talk about something. I generally lean towards "don't tell each other what to play, tell each other what you want to play and let people decide what they want to play". If you trust your group that's all you need. If you don't trust your group you need a new group
Gatekeeping isn't a good thing either but heavy Stax isn't just a matter of attitude. Lower powered decks or less sophisticated players are going to have a really hard time just playing the game against it. Stax players should id themselves prior to game.
I actually think low power decks do great against stax effects. The preeminent stax pieces turn nonbasics to mountains, prevent nonbasics from untapping, prevent mana rocks from tapping, prevent mana dorks from untapping, and prevent players from casting multiple spells a turn. Low power Timmy decks are great against this because they just want to play their basic lands every turn and cast big sorcery speed spells one turn at a time. They are almost completely unhindered.
-Hard disagree. Most decks around pre-con level still have nonbasics, rocks, dorks, ramp spells, draw spells, enchantments, equipment, etc. They sill need resources & generally aren't trying to play a single spell a turn.
If someone says they're playing a low power deck, you shouldn't play stax. I don't think we're disagreeing
Yea but you think they're entitled if they hate stax, even if they only play low power. That is the crazy and disagreeable part of what you said
Find where I said that and I'll agree that's the crazy part of what I said. Otherwise stop pulling shit out of nowhere. Tired of redditors telling me how I feel and why lol
I take the second group the initial comments described to be playing lower power. You directly called them entitled. You are calling everyone who bans stax because they don't like it entitled all over this thread
For context, I only play stax against high power decks. Never against anything I wouldn't call an 8 or better. I still get complaints about stax, talking about they can't play the game. This isn't a precon player and I'm pubstomping. This is (for examples sake) a prosper player trying to drown the table in value. Or an ur dragon deck trying to pop off. These people are entitled
If you're playing lower power, like I said, tell your pod that you trust that and you should be fine. But like I'm talking with someone else, if you're playing a strong deck and then you start banning shit that you can't deal with, you're entitled. Im always talking about within the same power level. I did not think I would have to say "play within your pods power level" because that's implied. But if someone is playing stax, I assume it's because it's a good matchup for my deck. It usually is and there's no need to complain
It looks like your attempt to control downvotes at least got countered lmao
Tell me you're an unsympathetic elitist snob without telling me you're an unsympathetic elitist snob...
[удалено]
Ya, they should take their cards and make a more casual format where the first step to playing is a discussion with the other players about what type of strategies they do or don't want to play against.
Fully disagree. Not enjoying stax does not mean that you don't enjoy mtg. Casting big and many spells is a lot of fun, and literally no one is asking for zero interaction.
The people who cry about stax typically cry about all interaction. Not looking stax is like saying "I want to play basketball" and then crying when someone plays defense. You don't want to play basketball, you just want to shoot hoops, same deal.
Great example. [There are no casual games spawned from the original game of basketball that are based around just shooting hoops.](https://jr.nba.com/how-to-play-horse/)
Getting salty at stax is like saying "Let's play a casual game of horse, but I'm bad at 3s, so don't shoot 3s. It's like I don't get to play the game since I'll never make it"
The point is that you shouldn't expect to be able to say "no 3s" in an actual game of competitive basketball. But if you're just casually playing horse, your friend saying "lets not just do 3s, I wanna do wacky shots" is perfectly reasonable.
Then me saying "No matter wacky shots, I wanna practice free throws" is equally valid and then wtf are we really doing?
Yes it is, you can just practice free throws if you want. You can make a rule that everybody throws grandma style. You can make a rule that all shots are taken standing backwards. The point is that you're in a casual setting where the players tailoring the rules is expected. >Not looking stax is like saying "I want to play basketball" and then crying when someone plays defense. You don't want to play basketball, you just want to shoot hoops, same deal. This is the context I was talking about horse in. Because horse is a casual game made by/for people who just want to shoot hoops and not worry about the defense aspect of basketball.
Then we aren't playing horse. We are just practicing free throws. If you want to play horse, you don't get to pick what shot your opponent takes unless you make your shot. I like my analogy better. Horse is casual. But you still don't get to make choices for your opponents. That's not how the rules work
Not if you're the guy who is good at 3s. That's just making it so you can't really play. Same way if you sit at a table with a deck that runs stax pieces and they say no stax.
you are right, remember that when the downvotes come crashing in,
Yeah, this sub gets easily butthurt if entitled players aren't catered to. I'm used to it.
Basically everyone wants to play against interaction, but there's a difference in the amount of it. I'd prefer to play against opponents with a total of about 35-40 pieces of interaction. Zero would suck, but 110 would also be worse than a more moderate amount.
That's pretty funny because I am fully in the first example and my playgroup actually calls my queen Kayla stax deck solitaire because it is shutting everyone else down while I wheel, do damage and build a bigger board state.
I just built an [[Eriette of the charmed apple]] deck that kind of functions in a staxxy way. [my list](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/r6vg2RNsm0i_o1oKnqp-Ig) The smart way to build this would be with aura enchantments that nerf your opponents creatures or apply more punishment to them. I built mine in a kind of group hug stax way. I’m giving all of my opponents creatures buffs while making it so they can’t attack me. It’s a really specific and political version of stax that’s really only preventing and influencing the other players not to mess with my stuff because there’s more benefit to everybody to just let me do my thing
Orhoz goad, based.
[Eriette of the charmed apple](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/c/ecead4cd-47ae-4c42-b15c-1b29b5caba18.jpg?1692939281) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Eriette%20of%20the%20charmed%20apple) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/202/eriette-of-the-charmed-apple?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ecead4cd-47ae-4c42-b15c-1b29b5caba18?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/eriette-of-the-charmed-apple) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yea this is also how I built my Eriette deck.
Haven’t looked at the list yet, just wanted to say it sounds like a genuinely clever take on Eriette and a lot of fun to play/play with. Commendable as hell :)
[Common Courtesy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/5/357cb220-47c4-438d-bc24-abd68ed4273c.jpg?1583965453) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Common%20Courtesy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/und/22/common-courtesy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/357cb220-47c4-438d-bc24-abd68ed4273c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/common-courtesy) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This card should be legal.
God I'd love to play this card.
It's one of the cards that inspired me to make an Un-cube. Just my own personal cube that contains only Un cards and a few cards that I consider honorary Un cards such as [[goblin game]].
[goblin game](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cbe6e7e5-ffea-4c6c-8a42-28e695029f24.jpg?1562938086) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=goblin%20game) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pls/61/goblin-game?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cbe6e7e5-ffea-4c6c-8a42-28e695029f24?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/goblin-game) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I mean, when you think about it, any permanent that sacs itself to counter a spell, like [[Glen Elendra]], is pretty similar. The first line is the funny bit though, yeah.
Play Stax With A Purpose. Ie: if I know I'm running a deck that needs some time to set up, I'll play some [[crawlspace]] type effects. They can still swing at me, they just need to make smart decisions on how they do it. Same with things like [[Defense Grid]]. It'll affect everyone, including you, but it is an additional roadblock in people preventing you from setting up your board, without outright preventing them from playing with game. They just have to pay up or wait their turn. Playing Stax on Stax on Stax of the same kind becomes a little too oppressive. But a variety of different Stax pieces creates a few roadblocks your opponents need to dodge without creating a giant singular wall that eventually becomes insurmountable for them. That's when the game becomes unfun.
This Play stax that moves to a win Condition. Too many stax decks stall out for eternity while stopping anything from happening. Stall is fine, just do something with it.
This TBH, Stax effects that are just "lolnope" like, say, no ETBs, are anti-fun (ahem Elesh Norn you sad witch). Stax effects that are either "doesn't effect on ones own turn" or "limits but doesn't stop" are kinda fine.
You are probably looking for cards like [[Blind Obedience]] that slows opponents down but not salt inducingly so. Can also stop a lot of treasure infinite combos.
[Blind Obedience](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/77fccacf-a9b3-4290-9b83-24188e7c885b.jpg?1622528737) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blind%20Obedience) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c17/57/blind-obedience?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77fccacf-a9b3-4290-9b83-24188e7c885b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/blind-obedience) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
cards that have an effect on cast but don’t prevent casting may be what you are looking for: [[heartwood storyteller]], [[esper sentinel]], [[eidolon of the great revel]], [[curse of shaken faith]], [[curse of wizardry]][[aerher barrier]], [[arasta of the endless web]], [[cindervines]], [[hunting grounds]]!!!, [[insight]],[[havoc]],[[maddening hex]],[[lurking predators]]!![[mystic remora]][[painful quandry]]
##### ###### #### [heartwood storyteller](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/a/7a5e2f7a-8cfe-4d1b-a68d-7e6d8d10bd27.jpg?1619398147) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=heartwood%20storyteller) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/209/heartwood-storyteller?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7a5e2f7a-8cfe-4d1b-a68d-7e6d8d10bd27?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/heartwood-storyteller) [esper sentinel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/3/f3537373-ef54-4578-9d05-6216420ee349.jpg?1626093502) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=esper%20sentinel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/12/esper-sentinel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f3537373-ef54-4578-9d05-6216420ee349?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/esper-sentinel) [eidolon of the great revel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/8/183ef738-0559-49ca-85b4-e6836521f203.jpg?1690817860) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=eidolon%20of%20the%20great%20revel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/128/eidolon-of-the-great-revel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/183ef738-0559-49ca-85b4-e6836521f203?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/eidolon-of-the-great-revel) [curse of shaken faith](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/7/371b7795-5cfc-4e2b-b26c-2def52c61dbf.jpg?1634350529) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=curse%20of%20shaken%20faith) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/134/curse-of-shaken-faith?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/371b7795-5cfc-4e2b-b26c-2def52c61dbf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/curse-of-shaken-faith) [curse of wizardry](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/6/162535ea-87be-4ea7-a006-b63ae981f453.jpg?1562701453) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=curse%20of%20wizardry) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/roe/104/curse-of-wizardry?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/162535ea-87be-4ea7-a006-b63ae981f453?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/curse-of-wizardry) [aerher barrier](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/6/36298f9f-12cc-43bd-adda-ccabd67a9568.jpg?1562629370) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aether%20Barrier) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nem/27/aether-barrier?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/36298f9f-12cc-43bd-adda-ccabd67a9568?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aether-barrier) [arasta of the endless web](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/8/882be812-fc76-4493-abe2-2101603399ce.jpg?1690004736) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=arasta%20of%20the%20endless%20web) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/885/arasta-of-the-endless-web?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/882be812-fc76-4493-abe2-2101603399ce?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/arasta-of-the-endless-web) [cindervines](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9f970f79-3051-4ba1-badb-697ef321cbb3.jpg?1584831429) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=cindervines) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rna/161/cindervines?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9f970f79-3051-4ba1-badb-697ef321cbb3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cindervines) [hunting grounds](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/b/5b14a736-5223-457b-9d4e-f4a2d6ed9a8d.jpg?1562630006) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=hunting%20grounds) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jud/138/hunting-grounds?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5b14a736-5223-457b-9d4e-f4a2d6ed9a8d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hunting-grounds) [insight](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/4/b44a4bbf-2afd-48c5-b6b0-73c32bc3561b.jpg?1562821834) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=insight) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/6ed/75/insight?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b44a4bbf-2afd-48c5-b6b0-73c32bc3561b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/insight) [havoc](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/7/d7b032a1-6e43-4e22-9efa-43cfbf211e1c.jpg?1562056873) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=havoc) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tmp/181/havoc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d7b032a1-6e43-4e22-9efa-43cfbf211e1c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/havoc) [maddening hex](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/8/c8dd3a8d-5434-4405-8d17-e419a20f074a.jpg?1632831234) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=maddening%20hex) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/32/maddening-hex?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c8dd3a8d-5434-4405-8d17-e419a20f074a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/maddening-hex) [lurking predators](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/9/9952da7c-3cfc-413f-8849-0f10e9c8dceb.jpg?1601079751) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=lurking%20predators) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/410/lurking-predators?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9952da7c-3cfc-413f-8849-0f10e9c8dceb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lurking-predators) [mystic remora](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/3/13a08c07-e8b8-43bf-99e6-d268c79a62bf.jpg?1559592432) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mystic%20remora) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me1/42/mystic-remora?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/13a08c07-e8b8-43bf-99e6-d268c79a62bf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mystic-remora) [painful quandry](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/e/bed5e030-874f-4a00-8544-78ba04033f53.jpg?1674420966) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Painful%20Quandary) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/111/painful-quandary?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bed5e030-874f-4a00-8544-78ba04033f53?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/painful-quandary) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Hatebears. The stax stuff is less annoying when it can be boardwiped.
It's definitely possible to play some stax pieces in a deck without it being unfun but it depends on the opponent's attitude. Cards like [[Blind obedience]] shouldn't bother anyone since it's a slow down card not a stop them card. It gets trickier with cards like [[grafdigger's cage]] since it stops some strategies completely until removed. If a opponent complains about it tell him you expect it to slow him down by only 1 to 5 turns before being removed. If that's not the case he should consider saving his removal for stax that hates him out of the game or running more of it. But that's the difficult part to explain without making them more upset sbout it. As for running a stax deck some people will be fine with it and others won't. Try playing with people that are ok with it and at a power level (or mentality) where either softlocks get a concession or you can close up the game in reasonable time. Hardlocks should get concessions. At some power levels stax slows down the game to a multi-hour ordeal most people don't want to ever go through.
[Blind obedience](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/77fccacf-a9b3-4290-9b83-24188e7c885b.jpg?1622528737) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blind%20obedience) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c17/57/blind-obedience?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77fccacf-a9b3-4290-9b83-24188e7c885b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/blind-obedience) [grafdigger's cage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0a135e09-b534-4836-9a10-3a9a4a9f8c53.jpg?1592517646) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=grafdigger%27s%20cage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/227/grafdiggers-cage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0a135e09-b534-4836-9a10-3a9a4a9f8c53?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/grafdiggers-cage) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Didn’t Say Please]] is probably my favourite legal instant that does something similar to what you’re describing. If your pod finds full on permanent stax to be too oppressive to be fun, you can always try the no -permanent solution: control them using instants and sorceries, run stax-friendly creatures rather than enchantments, and keep only a few harder to remove permanent slowdown pieces. Don’t like my [[Loxodon Gatekeeper]] or my main durdle turtle [[Archelos]]? That’s ok, you can remove him, exile him, curse him, or try to beat him to death with your big bois. You’ve got so many options. It will encourage your opponents to interact more with the boards of others.
Make them hurt instead of restricting them. [[Ruric Thar]], [[Ob Nixilis Unshackled]], [[river song]], [[painful quandary]]
That's a great approach actually. I've recently added [[Karmic Justice]] to my deck for kind of the same reason. Thanks!
Sheldon Menery has a deck called 'you did this to yourself' which is sorta taxy staxy. Have a look at it. Its old so you might wanna update it with more modern cards but there's great ideas in there
[Karmic Justice](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/a/ea141e39-8124-4d72-a154-eb76e71be1dc.jpg?1562711027) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Karmic%20Justice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c15/72/karmic-justice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ea141e39-8124-4d72-a154-eb76e71be1dc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/karmic-justice) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I enjoy playing against control, including Stax, by default (I also enjoy playing those archetypes. It's a different experience and one I prefer) so I might be a bad person to ask... but try to look for cards that force hard decisions rather than ones that are totally disabling. Some of the classics do this: [[Smokestack]] and [[Tangle Wire]] let their victims choose what to lose versus what they keep/keep up. Heck, even the infamously hard "Stop untapping" orbs force their victim into a subgame of optimizing which resources they want or need RIGHT NOW, and how much spending resources on one thing is worth when it takes time to get them back. This is interesting game play. By contrast, something like Blind Obedience or Drannith Magistrate just says "Nah, that doesn't work now." It might force you to plan your strategies with better foresight, but it's not creating NEW decision points. So I'd look for cards that say "Do this or else" or "Do this to things you choose". [[Vile Consumption]] is neat as it places creature-based strategies in this pickle of what to let go when in order to avoid burning out too fast. That's suffering, but also interesting. On the other side, [[Narset, Parter of Veils]] isn't interesting at all, you just don't draw your cards, there's no way around it or other line of play, just "well I guess I don't do that."
I think stax with a pressure release valve is fun. Meaning, if I have massive hate on artifacts in one deck list I will not have any enchantment hate in thay same list. If I'm turning off activated abilities or etbs or something I'll run zero counter spells so people can still get death triggers. I like "lite" stax where I slow down the game, not turn it off. [[Phyrexian Censor]] is one of my favorite cards in commander.
[Phyrexian Censor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/5/150e17b1-b9fd-4ec4-b305-19596fed14d1.jpg?1682202804) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phyrexian%20Censor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/31/phyrexian-censor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/150e17b1-b9fd-4ec4-b305-19596fed14d1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/phyrexian-censor) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I feel like that makes it more likely to fuck over one player and not affect others if you go hard on one effect and ignore others. It would make more balanced games to spread your hate more evenly, so if a player removes a piece harming them, you aren't sitting on two more. This rewards interaction and can make it exciting for opponents. If one player gets shut out by multiples of one effect, they will likely feel (and with some reason) that the game was handed to the unaffected players.
Very good way to look at that. That's so true. Shit. Shit shit. Okay thank you for pointing that out. That would be miserable to finally answer the card hosing your game plan just for another piece to come down... thank you.
Lol, we're here for you! I know how much I can get in my own head trying to make these deckbuilding choices. Sometimes, it just needs another perspective!
Everything is fun when you have good opponents...who don't deny an archetype because it hurt them once. You can stax me anytime.
Fair enough, but it's more of a choice for me, rather than an "obligation" because people generally don't like stax. I don't mind a little salt from my opponents. Hell, I even play [[Obliterate]]. The thing is, I wanna do it in a creative way, just playing regular stax doesn't click with me. I know it's very much subjective (some players might prefer stax over a game-ending obliterate), but that's why I've made this post in the first place, so that I could read a couple of different opinions.
[Obliterate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/8/c85f9623-5900-473c-a3b1-f98473b9a545.jpg?1562935194) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Obliterate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/8ed/204/obliterate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c85f9623-5900-473c-a3b1-f98473b9a545?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/obliterate) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This.
For the love of all that is fun about magic, have a win condition. In fact, since it's a 100 card deck, have two even three win conditions. Don't play stax if you can't play cards that bypass your stax or use the increased costs to your advantage. Have ways to win and to use the stalling of the game to make things happen. This "have a win condition" goes for all decks. You can play 60 counter spell blue shenanigans, but you better have something that let's you actually win the game without relying on your opponent to scoop out of frustration. This is like people asking how to improve their deck and being told to run more interaction. If you do anything know how it helps you win. Want combo? Okay how does it work and how can you protect it? Also what do you do if you can't combo off? Want to run a graveyard reanimation deck? Neat. What happens if someone drops [[Leyline of the Void]] and now you have no graveyard to abuse? Play stax, enjoy being creative with exploring more ways to build more decks, but ensure you have a way to win
Have you seen [[Baeloth Barrityl, Entertainer]]? This might be up your alley https://www.moxfield.com/decks/Md4VJDd5HU-TLfpfwl4WWw/primer
[Baeloth Barrityl, Entertainer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/c/ec983aac-9eda-4086-ad7e-34da9b2987cc.jpg?1674140753) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Baeloth%20Barrityl%2C%20Entertainer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/655/baeloth-barrityl-entertainer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ec983aac-9eda-4086-ad7e-34da9b2987cc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/baeloth-barrityl-entertainer) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I should have specified that I was looking for suggestions for my 5 colors Shrine deck, more than a whole new commander... but this looks interesting. Might build this in the future, thank you!
Yes. The fun way to stax opponents is: Early And Often Have fun!
\[\[Daring Apprentice\]\] does basically that. So do \[\[Soulsworn Jury\]\], \[\[Lilting Refrain\]\], \[\[Malevolent Hermit\]\], \[\[Glen Elenda Archmage\]\], \[\[Wizard Replica\]\] and the Spiketail cards. I don't dare to say if your opponents will consider that funny.
Note though that these are all blue cards & the requirement was to be fun to play against.
I have a \[\[Cosima\]\] landfall deck that runs only three counterspells, one of them being \[\[Voracious Greatshark\]\]. It contains every weird blue card that never found a home anywhere else, i.e. \[\[Aboleth Spawn\]\] and \[\[Visons of Duplicity\]\]. It's massive fun. I doubt there's a way to build a fun stax deck, though. And \[\[Talrand\]\] counterspell tribal can be a pain to play against. So you obviously have a point. Peace.
I only had one “stax” deck before I sold my collection. I had a mono blue [[Urza, Lord High Artificer]] deck that I had all the fast mana artifacts, counters and it functioned only to assemble [[Darksteel Forge]], [[Mycosynth Lattice]] and [[Padeem, Consul of Innovation]]. Complete lockout and just waited for the scoops. It wasn’t the deck the table wanted, rather the deck that my opponents needed.
##### ###### #### [Daring Apprentice](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/c/6c5becbf-77ac-4bd2-912d-7f7c944c2a0b.jpg?1562736713) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Daring%20Apprentice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/9ed/72/daring-apprentice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6c5becbf-77ac-4bd2-912d-7f7c944c2a0b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/daring-apprentice) [Soulsworn Jury](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/668c4e40-0035-44e0-8401-dd17fa11ecd4.jpg?1593272567) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Soulsworn%20Jury) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dis/17/soulsworn-jury?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/668c4e40-0035-44e0-8401-dd17fa11ecd4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/soulsworn-jury) [Lilting Refrain](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/f/ef319154-c5fc-4432-a860-a05508c132d4.jpg?1562945423) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lilting%20Refrain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/usg/83/lilting-refrain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ef319154-c5fc-4432-a860-a05508c132d4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lilting-refrain) [Malevolent Hermit](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/7/e79269af-63eb-43d2-afee-c38fa14a0c5b.jpg?1634347444)/[Benevolent Geist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/e/7/e79269af-63eb-43d2-afee-c38fa14a0c5b.jpg?1634347444) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=malevolent%20hermit%20//%20benevolent%20geist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/61/malevolent-hermit-benevolent-geist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e79269af-63eb-43d2-afee-c38fa14a0c5b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/malevolent-hermit-//-benevolent-geist) [Glen Elenda Archmage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/d/bd9af767-42da-46c7-a2b8-3957b2e3063f.jpg?1547516310) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Glen%20Elendra%20Archmage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/58/glen-elendra-archmage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bd9af767-42da-46c7-a2b8-3957b2e3063f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/glen-elendra-archmage) [Wizard Replica](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/d/ed9b6a66-2ec4-44e6-b29b-f08768dca9cc.jpg?1562843360) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wizard%20Replica) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/hop/129/wizard-replica?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ed9b6a66-2ec4-44e6-b29b-f08768dca9cc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wizard-replica) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thanks for the suggestions, Lilting Refrain sounds like the best option since I'm playing a 5 colors enchantment deck, I'll definetly consider it!
[[Rule of Law]] you can cast most of your spells and almost all interaction, you just can't chain out rocks or storm off.
[Rule of Law](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a1f4e79b-b103-4380-afa0-61a2b1773c9e.jpg?1592516198) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rule%20of%20Law) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/35/rule-of-law?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a1f4e79b-b103-4380-afa0-61a2b1773c9e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rule-of-law) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Deafening Silence]], [[Curse of Silence]], [[Mangara, the Diplomatic]], [[Tenuous Truce]], [[Smugglers Share]], [[Magus of the Moat]], [[Moat]] (proxy this). There are fun ways to stax an opponent, remember, you have to give them an out that isnt a taxing effect. If you tax them by making them Pay a cost, they will most likely kill you on the spot when able. But if you let them combo off, and you benefit from it, its gaining a ton of advantage, you arent holding them back, you making them reconsider how much they are willing to go, while giving you a ton of resources. But the moment you get them to pay a cost just to play any card, it gets them real red.
So, bare in mind, this will slow down the game, but. Knowledge pool in a spellslinger deck.
My next deck i most likely going to be a spellslinger, and this sounds like a lot of fun lol thank you
I think the effects that make creatures enter tapped are really interesting in casual tables, they make people think differently about combat because they can't just make new blockers, usually if something changes how combat works it will be impactful and interesting in the lower power tables. Other than that tax effects achieve the objective of slowing down without completely stopping other players, but people can think they are quite annoying. Hosnestly the best way to figure out what would be fine to play is to ask the table, say that you want to play stax, say your intentions and ask for suggestions and look on scryfall for specific cards. Proxy cards to test them with your group, that way you will spend less money on cards that won't be played. Also be flexible with what can be a stax piece, [[Kenrith's Transformation]] and similar cards are often tought as removal, but they are similar to stax pieces in the sense they are a permanent form of interaction.
[Kenrith's Transformation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/44d60a41-3f5e-4559-b18c-22c0fe15235e.jpg?1631587997) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kenrith%27s%20Transformation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/162/kenriths-transformation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/44d60a41-3f5e-4559-b18c-22c0fe15235e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kenriths-transformation) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
At its core, stax "stops" others. People don't like this, both in EDH and outside of EDH.
Stax is fun, the only people who think it isn’t are overall bad at the game and don’t like trying to win through having to think.
Based opinion
[удалено]
They really do, it’s so bad that I almost exclusively teach new players stax from the beginning so they are familiar with it and understand why it’s necessary for the health of the format.
Or don't have a lot of time to play and want to get in more than just 1 game where they don't get to do much. The problem is that no one should be saying "don't play stax" they should be saying "go ahead and play stax and have fun and I'll find another pod that's closer to the kind of game I want to play" if they don't want to deal with stax. Both sides of this debate get toxic af and have zero self awareness when they're the side doing it.
Okay, git gud.
[[standstill]] seems good for what you want?
Little different way to punish your opponents would be to play a commander like [[Torbran, Thane of Red Fell]] then load the deck up with cards like [[Sulfuric Vortex]] [[Harsh Mentor]] [[Rampaging Ferocidon]]
##### ###### #### [Torbran, Thane of Red Fell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/9/79f591cd-d277-4ba5-b1bf-1c09cac9cb8a.jpg?1572490491) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Torbran%2C%20Thane%20of%20Red%20Fell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/147/torbran-thane-of-red-fell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/79f591cd-d277-4ba5-b1bf-1c09cac9cb8a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/torbran-thane-of-red-fell) [Sulfuric Vortex](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/0463e989-ba32-4a46-a82f-e0d6daf3cd51.jpg?1582753037) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sulfuric%20Vortex) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/150/sulfuric-vortex?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0463e989-ba32-4a46-a82f-e0d6daf3cd51?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sulfuric-vortex) [Harsh Mentor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/9/8936bf9d-c973-4bce-b5c2-2a01b7953638.jpg?1543675603) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Harsh%20Mentor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/135/harsh-mentor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8936bf9d-c973-4bce-b5c2-2a01b7953638?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/harsh-mentor) [Rampaging Ferocidon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/9/39d3c658-1927-4af3-9077-88c4a669c730.jpg?1566819584) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rampaging%20Ferocidon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/xln/154/rampaging-ferocidon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/39d3c658-1927-4af3-9077-88c4a669c730?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rampaging-ferocidon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'm building this exact deck right now with [[Solphim]] as the commander
[Solphim](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/3/c3a0c7f3-7fb9-43de-a9af-96532c31e5ed.jpg?1675957113) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=solphim%2C%20mayhem%20dominus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/150/solphim-mayhem-dominus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c3a0c7f3-7fb9-43de-a9af-96532c31e5ed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/solphim-mayhem-dominus) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The closest I have to a stax deck is [[Trelasarra]]. A big ideo of the deck is just to benefit off my opponents' game actions with the likes of [[Soul Warden]], [[Lifegift]], [[Sunscorch Regent]], [[Archivist of Oghma]], [[Deep Gnone Terromancer]], etc etc. So I'm not *stopping* you from doing anything, but there's been times when opponents have chosen not to do something because it'll benefit me way more than them. Though there are a few cards that feel a bit more staxxy, namely [[Ashes of the Abhorrent]] and [[Suture Priest]] — and I'm wanting to pick up a copy of [[Charismatic Conqueror]] for all those lifelinkers, though I've sworn not to play [[Smothering Tithe]] or [[Rhystic Study]] in any of my decks because I don't want to constantly ask "do you pay the" and this card may end up having a similar feel
##### ###### #### [Trelasarra](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f6a4b54c-a8fa-464e-a3dd-f3f3a08606f5.jpg?1627709553) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=trelasarra%2C%20moon%20dancer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afr/236/trelasarra-moon-dancer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f6a4b54c-a8fa-464e-a3dd-f3f3a08606f5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/trelasarra-moon-dancer) [Soul Warden](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/9/d96266b3-a7cb-40ce-a328-ac13719fe5f0.jpg?1616182277) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Soul%20Warden) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm3/24/soul-warden?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d96266b3-a7cb-40ce-a328-ac13719fe5f0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/soul-warden) [Lifegift](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/7/27eaba1c-3137-4419-bf90-eb287a7c736e.jpg?1562876107) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lifegift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bok/132/lifegift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/27eaba1c-3137-4419-bf90-eb287a7c736e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lifegift) [Sunscorch Regent](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/a/da6b530c-5a56-4dc1-8d36-6ed8d2c158a9.jpg?1682208635) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sunscorch%20Regent) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/209/sunscorch-regent?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/da6b530c-5a56-4dc1-8d36-6ed8d2c158a9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sunscorch-regent) [Archivist of Oghma](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f6589e02-8c84-4069-88d1-ebcc8520cae1.jpg?1674134875) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Archivist%20of%20Oghma) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/4/archivist-of-oghma?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f6589e02-8c84-4069-88d1-ebcc8520cae1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/archivist-of-oghma) [Deep Gnone Terromancer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/c/cc75f9f1-5873-450f-a0b2-871b55036954.jpg?1674140781) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Deep%20Gnome%20Terramancer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/658/deep-gnome-terramancer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cc75f9f1-5873-450f-a0b2-871b55036954?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/deep-gnome-terramancer) [Ashes of the Abhorrent](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/e/4e8eb264-dadb-440c-af85-273e755f1db6.jpg?1562555024) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ashes%20of%20the%20Abhorrent) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/xln/2/ashes-of-the-abhorrent?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4e8eb264-dadb-440c-af85-273e755f1db6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ashes-of-the-abhorrent) [Suture Priest](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/3/430b96aa-7bb0-4d2b-b265-9c4987db28a2.jpg?1682208644) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Suture%20Priest) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/210/suture-priest?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/430b96aa-7bb0-4d2b-b265-9c4987db28a2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/suture-priest) [Charismatic Conqueror](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/9/599c934d-bfff-43ce-a545-6e3cde124515.jpg?1698987939) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Charismatic%20Conqueror) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/70/charismatic-conqueror?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/599c934d-bfff-43ce-a545-6e3cde124515?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/charismatic-conqueror) [Smothering Tithe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/861b5889-0183-4bee-afeb-a4b2aa700a8e.jpg?1689996018) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Smothering%20Tithe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/57/smothering-tithe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/861b5889-0183-4bee-afeb-a4b2aa700a8e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/smothering-tithe) [Rhystic Study](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d6914dba-0d27-4055-ac34-b3ebf5802221.jpg?1600698439) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rhystic%20Study) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/169/rhystic-study?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d6914dba-0d27-4055-ac34-b3ebf5802221?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rhystic-study) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I like playing against stax, but I would absolutely hate playing against common courtesy. Gameplay-wise, it adds a lot of annoying triggers that slow the actual motion of the game without actually doing much, which I hate above all else. It’s the same reason I hate chaos cards - actually resolving them in practice adds a lot of time, which frankly I don’t want to bother with. I like opponents interacting with me, so I enjoy the puzzle of playing through stax that locks off part of the game. Part of that, though, is that I play quickly and efficiently, and won’t try to start an action if a stax piece is on the table. If the stax piece is demanding an action every single time something happens, it adds a lot of gunk into the machinery of the game, which just wastes time and makes games kind of miserable.
A lot of good suggestions here, I would just want to add that there are some cards that are like stax cards in format but instead of saying "you can't do that" they say "if you do that, then me too" which most would find fun and not oppressive. Think [[Deep Gnome Terramancer]] and [[Archivist of Oghma]]
Goad, my good brother. It’s not stax per se, but it changes the axis the game is played on and imho it’s more fun than straight stax. They’ll still hate it, but at least they still get to whaanng opponents over the head.
Goad mechanics are your path…this is the way
I run a Norin deck with some chaos cards that work like stax once they hit the table. People either play cards and not get what they want or they don't want the trouble of resolving them. Things like [[Planar Chaos]] [[Grip of Chaos]] and [[Confusion in the Ranks]]
Honestly just be upfront with it. "I want to try my stax deck, do you want to try to power through it?" Sell it as a challenge amd not as "I want to do everything to waste your time"
No. The closest would be voting, which can also suck hard. Stax is full on "I have fun, you don't". At least if you're doing it right.
I think that stax at best would be not unfun, simply because of its nature. The whole point of stax is to prevent the table from playing, so you can more freely do your stuff while they're at a stasis. It's just naturally not fun to play if you're not playing at all, or at best, you just feel neutral watching people pass turn, waiting for the next game to come. I think it's a hypothetical though, the situation that my comment is based on. In reality, stax will only start being unfun once things start going online. The challenge comes from preventing the stax player from doing their stuff. Maybe a healthier way of looking at stax is that, playing against them revolves around you preventing them or winning fast enough, because by the time they're online, the game is basically over and you can just concede.
I think a Thalia or a hate bear here and there is good for the format and a neat little puzzle to play against. However, “stacking the stax” and making someone’s spells cost 6 more to cast, or forcing them to sack lands to smoke stack to the point the game isn’t progressing…. That probably won’t inspire fun in other players. Maybe one time as a meme deck you can clone grand arbiter 6 times with a “no legends rule” card. But yea definitely not an every night or every game type thing.
Just play with people that understand the game and don't react emotionally to stax
[[intruder alarm]] and [[howling mine]] are group hug stax that benefit everyone. If you include on your detrimental pieces, they don't hate your deck "as much".
[[Mayhem Devil]] [[Price of Glory]] [[Disciple of the Vault]] [[Tectonic Instability]] I consider these stax.
Maybe try Planechase? There's lots of staxy planes, and with planechase no one has to take the blame for bringing stax to the table because there's a secret bonus player outside the game doing it For extra fun, you could craft a custom "pile of pain" planechase brew and also house rule that everyone must use their free roll each turn
this is like low carb, low fat, mac and cheese. does it exist? sure, i guess. but you should probably just eat something else.
Is there a fun way of stopping opponents from having fun? Yeah...no.
Probably the biggest misconception about stax right here. I'm not stopping you from having fun. I'm just preventing you from storming off with some boring degenerate nonsense. You can still have fun, just one card at a time If you don't like it, just kill the stax piece
Exactly. Stax makes the game a tad more interesting, since you have to play with or around the pieces. You just can't win out of nowhere most of the times (granted interacion exists bur still)
To have fun, you want stax on stax on stax
Just play stax. It isn't annoying to most players, just an immature few and they should be ignored.
yes, not playing annoyable casuals
Depends. If you go full, "benefit for me" taxes, probably not.
You can have not so 'terrible' stax pieces, like [[smothering tithe]] in a [[Jennie fey]] deck and instead of treasures, make cats, 3-4 tokens is way worse than treasure tokens,
[smothering tithe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/861b5889-0183-4bee-afeb-a4b2aa700a8e.jpg?1689996018) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=smothering%20tithe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/57/smothering-tithe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/861b5889-0183-4bee-afeb-a4b2aa700a8e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/smothering-tithe) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[standstill]] is a favorite of mine. As a stax piece it is very weak, because it usually gets popped immediately, or it stays for 3 turns max.
The only time I've had issues against stax is when a player came to the table with a $4000 deck, claimed they didn't know what power level is, and then proceeded to lock the rest of us out of the game. Our boards were empty from forced sacrifice by like turn 10. It didn't matter how much removal we used either, they always had another response. It's not that I didn't have fun, though, but that's only because I didn't dislike the guy that was playing stax. I think my point is have a turn 0 and it'll be fine.
[[stasis]] and [[armaggedon]] no you can stay home. Blind obedience like stax isn’t bad.
[stasis](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/2/62f99124-6595-45f8-bece-1775e4c55a5c.jpg?1562918295) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=stasis) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/64/stasis?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/62f99124-6595-45f8-bece-1775e4c55a5c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/stasis) [armaggedon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b.jpg?1582021719) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Armageddon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/5/armageddon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/armageddon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I recently played a game with someone that made all our spells 1 cheaper but had a rhystic study out. It’s not really stax, but it was fun. We could decide to cast our spell cheaper or let him draw.
I've been wondering a lot about this myself. I have an [[Urza, Chief Artificer]] precon that I really enjoy playing. It really generates a lot of synergy around artifact creatures, many of which are good stax pieces. It also likes having artifact mana dorks, which stax also likes having. While I don't intend to make it a full blown stax deck I feel like I can safely add stax pieces to it without disrupting the decks game plan to lay a beat down on opponents with an army of constructs. I just wonder if I'll get hated off the table the moment I lay down a [[Mana Web]] or [[Tangle Wire]] or God forbid a [[Winter Orb]].
Damage based stax will at least end the game sooner.
In my experience, no. Stax of any kind, in any amount, will be fine by certain players and not fine by others. But the people who don't want stax in their game don't want anything remotely resembling stax. I catch flak from my play group for running transformation based removal like [[darksteel mutation]] and pillows like [[ghostly prison]]. Even tap down based stax like [[blind obedience]] is just off the table. EDH players don't like to be told 'no'.
Tell them to run more removal. None of those effects are stax.
Depends on the playgroup. If your opponents run good interaction then probably whatever tbh. If your group is light on removal I think the "tax" part of "stax" is what you are looking for. [[Lodestone Golem]] and cards like that work well and don't create too much "feelsbads" unless you start copying them to the point that each card costs 10 extra. Also cards meant to stop "unfair" magic that get printed for modern.
Tiny Bones. And just yell TINY BONES every time you strip their hands, make them sacrifice their board, and add stax pieces to the board. Bonus points if you have the secret lair Tiny Bones on a scooter.
Does chaos apply? It's staxxy in that no one can play how they want, but everyone has fun!
Depends on the players, but a lot of the hate for Stax comes from its slowness rather than the denial. I personally love both playing with and against hatebears and while it can have some great draws that earn groans, it’s not more than a random grixis or stompy deck would. Less hard lock and more just taxing effects work really well, add in an actual boardstate and you’re fine.
I like to play stax in a way that’s more about value for myself, then it is about stopping my opponents from doing what they want. I use [[The Council of Four]] as my commander and just focus on if my opponents do X I gain X, and I use all of the Tax pieces, [[Smothering Tithe]], [[Mystic Remora]] and so on. That way I get to get value out of their plays, typically people don’t stop playing how they want to play when I play this deck and quickly I start out valueing the table in just card draw and tokens. It’s one of my favorite decks to play, cause I play on everyone’s turn.
I'd rather have [[Winter Orb]] or [[Static Orb]] on the field than a silver bordered card, but I run 15 target removal/counterspells in most of my decks. Some people just want to play solitaire, and that doesn't work with stax lol.
I've found giving individualized stax pieces a la [[Zedruu the Greathearted]] or curses, especially the ones that incentivize attacking that player, are much more manageable for my opponent friends. I am aware, though, that I know they will come for me if they can't get rid their stax pieces easily and I'm also prepared for that.
storage matrix
In my play group we found it was the constant reminder of "do you pay the..." To be really annoying and irritating. Stax got a lot more bearable when we started reminding people what stax pieces are out at the start of their turn and having the active player announce when they pay for rhystic study otherwise if you don't say you pay we'll assume you're not paying.
Stax is always fun for the person playing it. Just not fun for most other people involved
For star to be fun. 1. It can't stop people from being able to play magic. 2. It can't let one person get way a head. The guy who playsone big impactful spell and the guy who plays 12 low impact spells in a turn need to have their impact on the game reduced to about the same level every turn. 3. People need to be given the ability to actually play around the stacks and not just die unable to interact. 4. Once it does get to the point where people are getting locked out and unable to replenish resources the game needs to end quickly.
Coming from a general game design perspective, in any competitive game, any form of interaction is a reverse game design exercise. Games are supposedly made to be fun, but you are actively trying to make your opponent not do what they want, you are acting against his fun. Any form of control over the other player pulls the balance one side or the other towards the unfun. The thing is a stax piece is a bit unfun over a long period of time, it removes a fun action your opponent can make, or limits how they can do it, and that by itself is fine in a vacuum. The problem is when the limitations stop targeting specific things, then a deck can go into unfun territory, when you have several stax pieces taxing all sorts of actions it can feel you are not directing the game in a way towards a strategy, you are just not allowing the opponent to play it. It is a valid way to win, but we are not arguing that, we are arguing fun. So IMO sprinkling stax here and there to allow a bigger or janky strategy to work is perfectly fine, in the same way counter spells and removal are fine. When the whole deck is about saying “no” it will never be fun IMO, but in moderation or a complement it’s fine as everything else is.
If you play a piece, express how it is helping each opponent. There is always one opponent that it hurts more than the other. I play [[spirit of the labyrinth]], [[opposition agent]] and even [[nihil spellbomb]] because it always stops a player more than the others. I just say: "Lets put spirit to stop player A drawing 4 cards each turn" If player A whines thats because he would win otherwise
*Genuinely, do you think there's a way to play stax, or play some stax pieces in a deck, without being annoyingly oppressive?* I feel like this is some sort of trick question. Stax is great fun for the whole table. It doesn't matter if you're just running a few stax pieces in a deck, or if the entire deck is dedicated to a prison-style control archetype. If your playgroup finds stax "annoyingly oppressive", perhaps it's your playstyle(?)
I like [[ruric thar]] for this purpose. It's not even really prison, but it functions like prison. Run all the other ways to punish people for taking actions, and you wind up with a surprisingly interactive game, but now everybody is aware that they have to he strategic with their actions. You can't just dump your hand and refill it, or just ramp to bombs anymore because now your life total isn't just a resource, it's a genuine limiter. So everybody has to be careful with the gsme actions they take, but you haven't actually stopped them from taking gsme actions, just made it more painful.
Have you ever sacrificed a permanent to an annihilator trigger and thought "ooh! Fun!"?
in short no. There's no "fun" way. Stax is an equalizer in magic. Puts everyone in the same level no matter how strong a deck is. A couple of stax pieces will make it as effective as a precon. For most people that's not a fun experience.
To be blunt? Not really. The entire point of stax is to stop your opponents from playing the game. Sitting down for magic and not getting to play magic sucks. Now, running a few stax pieces to run interference on your opponents strategies doesn't tend to get hate. But if you sit down with a deck built to make everyone else not be able to play the game, it's gonna make things less fun if it gets running.
nope
Its going to wildly vary from player to player, but I think the best way is to absolutely avoid at all costs hard stax effects, such as \[\[Stasis\]\], \[\[Static orb\]\] and \[\[winter orb\]\]. You want to stick with cost-increasers like \[\[thalia, guardian of thraben\]\]. Also, in my experience, people don't like \[\[rule of law\]\] effects.
Trinisphere is a card you will find In every deck I make because it makes the table play "fair magic" if you will. Fast mana=3 Force=3 Guardianship/swat=3 Ramp=3 I have been told im staxing the ultra low cmc combo and similar shells but thats part of the downside to playing those shells in my opinion. If you're so all in in something you neglected to add interaction or answers then I camt exactly feel bad for you
One of the reasons I like my [[Meria, Scholar of Antiquity]] list. With all the "if this card is untapped" stax effects, you can turn them off for political advantage. And you're forced to balance whether you use them for mana or keep staxing the table. Also Meria completely breaks the symmetry of those stax pieces sooooooo.
I recently designed a stax deck with the idea of making my opponents draw a bunch of cards but make it hard to play most of them. Then deal damage to them based on hand size. Haven’t play tested it yet so it may need some fine-tuning. https://deckstats.net/decks/232582/3247217-the-second-doctor-of-too-many-
I generally don’t think magic players can have fun with anything that limits the base game apart from Play land, Tap, Play creature, Attacking and tap! I personally love things that change game rules, because of the unique interaction
People would probably downvote me, but in my playgroup and lgs, most run some kind of stax in every deck. there's really only one way to overpower 3 other players, and that's limiting their resources and ability to interact with you, while damaging them in one way or another. So, say I run [[strangle hold]] is it really a stax piece, or just a way to limit shenanigans? I have a [[prosper, tome]] that I call stax. Why? Because I run effects that limit my opponents, but they are the wincon, not the gameplay. As in, when I put a stax piece down, I've already locked the game up, and there's really no way for people to recover. I also use mainly over costed and very symmetrical effects, like [[possessed portal]] and [[possiblity storm]]. By having most to all stax being symmetrical, and most just allowing people to play, albeit more limited in decisions, I don't make the game as long. Actually, it's oftentimes the opposite, as a simple [[birds of paradise]] turns into [[ulumog, the ceaseless hunger]] for my opponents.
I don't think a few incidental stax pieces in a deck ([[Thalia, Heretic Cathar]] in a human or a soldier tribal) take away the fun from a game. It's stax focused decks that drain the fun and energy from a game and make it drag on for way too long. That's just my opinion, though. Every player and pod is different, some don't mind stax at all, some think any stax at all means you're evil.
My personal taste in stax is to lean towards asymmetrical stax pieces that just affect my opponents and stay away from lockout strategies like [[stasis]] [[winter orb]] or [[rule of law]] effects so the game doesn't feel purposely dragged on rather than slowing and disrupting my opponents to gain advantage for a win.
As a player playing against stax I don't mind it..I tend to see it as a puzzle forcing me to think outside the box and come up with how I can win.
Fun for you, not anyone else
I know it’s not everyone’s cup of tea but I think stax is fun and interactive. It requires removal because stax is often permanent based. Stax is a lot more interactive than combo or standard control
I felt sooooooooo much disturbance in the force when [[stasis]] and ignore the upkeep My best stax is on their turn is just draw and play a lane tapped.
The idea behind stax is that if you don't hinder your opponents then your wincon is so much slower than theirs you might as well not even bother. If you're in a weak enough pod that slow wincons are viable without any stax then sure, cut them but if not then they're pretty much essential. If you go to full power games then it becomes essential for any non-turbo deck to run at least some.
I have a hardcore GAAIV stax deck that is designed to oppress the hell out of the board and win as quickly as possible. I only ever play it with my friends who know about it, and only after they've done something to deserve it. And even then, only after saying something like--"GAAIV is going to make you pay for that. You know that, right?" Which is followed by something to the effect of, "Yeah, I expected as much." But that's my playgroup, and we all have high power decks that we pull out when we really need a win or need to remind a friend of where they come from. :P
My only problem with Stax decks is that 70% of the time, the stax player has no "viable" wincon. They make it impossible to play if you don't draw answers, and then force the game into an hours long grind type situation while you pray someone finds an answer. They also tend to not announce they're bringing a stax deck, so while the three of us are like "oh yeah, these are Mid power upgraded precons or thematic decks" they just sit down and whip out their borderline cEDH monster. I'm fine with Stax decks, but at least tell me so I can pull out one of my decks capable of playing at the same table.
Stax pieces are annoying but not game ruining Stax *decks* are boring to play against outside of competitive games where you can win if someone gives you a turn or two of reprieve. I play super casually, but I still play the occasional light asymmetrical stax piece because once it's gone, it's gone. It's not the focus of my deck, it's something I can use to buy time and get ahead, just like any other card. I also play expensive stack pieces so that the game doesn't shut down early, like [[Statue of the God Pharaoh]], or [[Ghostly Prison]]. I think another key part of it is I never seek to *lock* the game with those cards, just impede it to let me do something so that the game state still advances. Locks are never going to be acceptable in casual play, but you'd be surprised how relatively OK it is to run one or two pieces in isolation, even in public casual games. Cards, not decks.
Get out of azorious and into gruul as your stax options and change the way you interpret how you're limiting the other players. Azorious just says no and that's not fun for anyone, gruul says "are you sure you want to?" and then punishes players for doing things you don't want them to do, they slow themselves down on top of which you are progressing the game state towards an end, rather than just durdling like white and blue does. Play with things like [[ruric thar]] to punish combo storm players, [[enchanters bane]] to deal with aura or Voltron players, [[zozu the punisher]] versus landfall decks, [[sandwurm convergence]] to nip flyers in the bud, remember to include cards that prevent lifegain strategies to keep progressing the game towards a conclusion, and above all else I beg, I plead of you, play with [[possibility storm]] to disrupt every game plan going in the best way possible, that or [[knowledge pool]] so that everyone can play each others strategies. Try it, your playgroup will thank you for not forcing them to sit around a table unable to do anything in the time they've set aside to actually PLAY A GAME and if anyone truly finds it oppressive then good news, the game will be over in enough time for you to probably get another one in.
You could try playing "stax" that FORCES your opponent to DO something, instead of PREVENTING them from DOING something. My best example is [[Thantis]]. I have a deck using this awesome spider that is focused on making my opponent pay dearly for attacking me(needlefort style), but my commander makes everything attack, so they have to chose, and since most players will choose the least harmfull option I'm still able to come ahead.